Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zousha_Omenohu 06-11-07, 01:23 PM	I don't know all that much about the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, and I thought that here I could get an authoritative answer to a particular question. To what degree is the ancient empire of Illefarn, which was introduced in Neverwinter Nights 2, considered Forgotten Realms canon? I ask because I'm not sure of how highly the computer games set in the campaign setting (especially the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate series) are viewed by the Forgotten Realms community.
ericlboyd 06-11-07, 01:42 PM	Illefarn long precedes Neverwinter Nights 2. Look at Lost Empires of Faerun for more info. --Eric
Alediran 06-11-07, 01:55 PM	Fortunately for us, the FR fans, NWN 2 is accurate for the most part when presenting canonical facts, the rest was tailor made for the game and it was well thought.
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 06:33 PM	-Might want to check out the module/adventure Under Illefarn. -Elves of Faerūn will eventually have articles about Illefarn.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-11-07, 07:08 PM	To be honest, I've only looked at two Forgotten Realms books, which were the Campaign setting book and Monsters of Faerun. I'm honestly tempted to just buy the campaign setting so my brother will stop bugging me about starting a campaign. To what extent are computer games set in the campaign setting taken as canon? Also, what exactly are these song portals I keep hearing about?
Faraer 06-11-07, 07:25 PM	For the last several years, new content in the computer games isn't considered canonical unless/until it appears in a sourcebook, novel or magazine article. This means that Wizards doesn't have to keep such tight creative control on licensees, and it avoids the problem of multiple paths and outcomes. But bear in mind that a lot of the content in the computer games is taken from existing sources, as you've seen. Song portals? Nevereardofem.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-11-07, 07:34 PM	Some sort of device that the people of Illefarn built. Apparently every now and then some unsuspecting adventurers stumble upon one and accidentally activate it, opening to a myriad of places. This is only an educated guess made after reading about it on the game's loading screen.
Old Sage 06-11-07, 08:56 PM	Song portals? Nevereardofem.Song portals are likely a reference to the Song Paths created by the poet-mages of Illefarn, as noted in Lost Empires of Faerūn
BadCatMan 06-11-07, 09:07 PM	See "Voices Of The Lost" in the Perilous Gateways series on the WotC site, starting here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20010131b These are the song portals.
msatran 06-11-07, 10:47 PM	Karsus is less canon in the Realms than Illefarn. Karsus, and everything about him, including Wulgreth and Jingleshod, come from an old Dragonquest Adventure called The Enchanted Wood. Swear to you on the bones of the adventure, which I still have lying around somewhere. Even Amelior Amanitas comes from this adventure! No lie!
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 12:12 AM	Karsus is less canon in the Realms than Illefarn. -While what you said might be true, I am quite canon, thank you very much.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 12:20 AM	It largely explains why, once I actually found out more about Karsus and Netheril, I sort of stopped liking everything about him. But not you, LK. I really must talk to Labelas and Sehanine one day into looking at your strange delusions of being a human archmage.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 12:39 AM	Karsus, and everything about him, including Wulgreth and Jingleshod, come from an old Dragonquest Adventure called The Enchanted Wood. WOW! :eek: I thought that that title sounded earily familiar, I actually own that game, back before TSR bought SPI! Not a bad system, and one of the few early competitors for D&D. After a little research, it turns out that the lore in several of the modules produces for THAT GAME went in the Realms, mostly in the Savage Frontier module. I never realized it, but there were several modules for that system created AFTER TSR bought them out, and they were set in the REALMS! How weird is that? Non-D&D Forgotten Realms! Boy... the more you think you know....
msatran 06-12-07, 12:42 AM	Heh. There's still a few others.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 12:49 AM	few others? few other what? :confused: Are you talking about the two modules for that system not made by either TSR OR SPI? That would be the Judges Guild ones, but I don't think anything from those went into FR.
msatran 06-12-07, 12:49 AM	There's like three dragonquest modules. Two of them are FR, I think.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 12:52 AM	I think there are some discrepancies between that article and the lore presented in NWN2. First of all, it says Illefarn fell before Netheril, while in the game, the creation of the King of Shadows seems to coincide with Karsus's disruption of the Weave, which meant that Illefarn would have fallen shortly after, if not around the same time. More importantly, the article claims Illefarn died slowly, with no great battles marking its fall. This is different than in the game, where there is mention of a battle to destroy the King of Shadows, who fought his former charges, believing them to be enemies of Illefarn, even if they wore Illefarn colors. The battle took a heavy toll, and in the end the only thing they could do was partially seal the King of Shadows into the Shadow Weave that powered him. I haven't gotten further information (just arrived in Act II), but since this article came first, wouldn't its word carry more weight than the game?
GothicDan 06-12-07, 12:53 AM	There were two Illefarns. The first was a mighty Elven empire, and the second was a Dwarven-Human alliance.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 01:03 AM	Two Illefarns, two Wulgreths, two Oboulds, etc... all caused by poor research when the world was first being developed by TSR. :rolleyes: Nothing like referring to a kngdom/person/event long after it was gone, and then having to explain it to the fans... There's like three dragonquest modules. Two of them are FR, I think.More, actually. All are listed HERE. (http://www.waynesbooks.com/DragonQuest.html) I have the 1st edition game, but none of the modules. The final hybrid module seems interesting, for historic value if nothing else.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 01:11 AM	Are we certain all of those were mistakes? It's not unheard of in real life to have two similar things having the same name, often done on purpose for posterity or out of respect. But if we have evidence that they were genuine mistakes, then that's different.
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 01:23 AM	But not you, LK. I really must talk to Labelas and Sehanine one day into looking at your strange delusions of being a human archmage. -Talk to KtM about it. It's a long, complicated story that is rated R for violence, nudity, language, drug use, and suggestive themes.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 01:27 AM	To be honest, I just don't know. This is what always worries me about these sort of things is the potential for canon errors. If I had known about Illefarn before I started playing the game, whenever it would be described or discussed I would probably come very close to yelling at my computer "Hey, everyone! Wait a minute! You've got it all wrong!" In fact I might end up doing that now that I have more information. Furthermore, the "second" Illefarn was an alliance between elves and dwarves. The only human I'm aware of was the man who would be King...of Shadows.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 01:29 AM	If you look closely at them, you will see why they are mistakes. Take Obould for instance - someone wrote that he had taken Citadel Felbarr from some humans and renamed it Many Arrows Keep. Sometime later someone decided to use that, and referred to Obould in the present tense. Problem was, Orcs don't live that long, so now I think the current one turns out to be the first one's grandkid. The Wulgreth stuff is even more coincidental, both having to do with Karsus in one way or the other, but seperated by thousands of years. Illefarn seems that way, but I can't say with 100% certainty. I think the 1e books mention a 'lost Illefarn', and someone used it as newer Dwarf/Human Realm, when it was supposed to be an ancient Elven Realm. Like I said, I don't know it for a fact, but I would be willing to bet money that most of those redundant names were chronology errors.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 02:03 AM	That still doesn't account for the fact that the article was made before the game. Frankly I thought the community would be up in arms for some developer simply acquiring the rights to make a game and then getting the background information wrong.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 02:09 AM	For my part, I dislike almost all video games. As long as an FR video game isn't canon, I could care less about it. I couldn't even make my way through BG I. The only computer game I've played and truly liked enough to beat it more than once is Planescape: Torment. In fact, the only other video games I've even owned were WC 1-3, Starcraft, and BG I.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 02:09 AM	We don't, only because video games are NOT considered canon. We have a special term for that stuff, it's called psuedo-canon, meaning you can take it or leave it.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 02:12 AM	I thought something was either canon or it wasn't. Maybe I'm just naive about these sort of things. I know that I'm pretty ignorant of the entire setting compared to probably everyone else here.
Krash 06-12-07, 07:05 AM	The King of Shadows is part of the FR computer game world. For now, he doesn't exist in the gaming/novel Realms. He might never do so. Oh, and having multiple Illefarns, Oboulds and Wulgreths aren't mistakes - they are opportunities to add detail and nuance to the Realms. -- George Krashos
captaincarot 06-12-07, 07:08 AM	Oh, and having multiple Illefarns, Oboulds and Wulgreths aren't mistakes - they are opportunities to add detail and nuance to the Realms. -- George Krashos durned dopplegangers you never know when you've killed the right one.
Old Sage 06-12-07, 08:12 AM	The only computer game I've played and truly liked enough to beat it more than once is Planescape: Torment.You're a man after my own heart GD! ;)
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 10:28 AM	-I never had any problems with there being multiple Illefarns, and multiple Oboulds, but I don't like the idea of there being who Wulgreths. I can't comment on whether or not Wulgreth is a common name, but one Wulgreth was Netherese, and the other was...from Ascalhorn (Ascalhorny is definitley not the word for someone from Ascalhorn). It's pretty rare for the same exact name to pass through the generations, and cultural boundaries, unchanged. The Steve in the U.S. is Esteban in Spain. Michael in the U.S. is Mikhail in Russia. Of course, if Wulgreth wasn't the later wizard's actual name...
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 12:14 PM	Personally, I don't mind the Obould thing, although I'm pretty sure initially it was a mistake. I figure that Orcs are about as intuitive as pro-boxers, so naming ALL their children after themselves sounds about right. ;) The Illefarn thing is just weird, and looks too obviously like a mistake. Why the hell would humans and Dwarves name their NEW kingdom after a fallen Elven kingdom. That just makes zero sense to me; it has a bad smell and no amount of 'sauce' is going to cover it up. Wulgreth SHOULD be the SAME Wulgreth, and I wish they would establish that already. There are some discrepencies they would have to work out, but they've dealt admirably with worse before. As an interesting side note, I just learned last night that much of the lore of the North, including some Netheril stuff (like Karsus himself) was originally part of a completely different game system. I get the feeling that after TSR aquired the intellectual rights, many of the early FR designers 'picked over' the bones of that setting stealing ideas, and several of them may have inadvertantly used the same things in different ways. It would explain much, like why the Netheril box set doesn't really mesh well with previous lore.
The Ubbergeek 06-12-07, 01:01 PM	I heart videogames -it make things that tabletop can't, just so. Well, it's nothing new - Mage, the classic rpg from White Wolf, sprung from Ars Magica concepts if I remember well - and one of the main clans from the old Vampire rpg was in fact based - if not taken semi-wholly from a group of mages from Ars Magica, also. For me, a good idea is a good idea... if you can fit it, of course.
msatran 06-12-07, 01:08 PM	Two Wulgreths is not bad. At least they don't have two Jingleshods. Here's the problem, though. The problem with the Enchanted Wood is Karsus lying on top of the mountain with the dagger of instant kill you. That's right, unless you freely give your life to have Karsus restored, you DIE. No saving throw, no nothing. Once you die, Karsus dies too, and only THEN do the PC's have the chance to kill Wulgreth, because he's linked to Karsus's life force. It's the most retarded plot trick ever! Plus, according to canon now, the adventure is effectively everlasting until someone pulls it off, because the ring of trees that you have to enter to trigger the adventure is bigger on the inside than the outside. Heck, Karsus's PILLAR is bigger on the inside than the outside, and TALLER than the equivalent space it's supposed to occupy. Figure THAT one out. :)
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 02:18 PM	Aren't there like a dozen Shadow Kings or some such as well? Its all so hard to keep track of sometimes. And there also is two seperate groups of seven fallen gods. My head hurts.... :banghead:
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 02:56 PM	Aren't there like a dozen Shadow Kings or some such as well? -Titles are a different matter. I have no problem with multiple characters, in multiple regions over multiple timelines posessing the same title. My head hurts.... :banghead: -Head On...Apply directly to the forehead...Head On...Apply directly to the forehead...
Faraer 06-12-07, 03:05 PM	I get the feeling that after TSR aquired the intellectual rights, many of the early FR designers 'picked over' the bones of that setting stealing ideas, and several of them may have inadvertantly used the same things in different ways. It would explain much, like why the Netheril box set doesn't really mesh well with previous lore.When Paul Jaquays wrote FR5 The Savage Frontier he incorporated stuff from his own DQ1 The Shattered Statue and other DragonQuest material, much as elements of Jeff Grubb's campaign found their way into the Realms (Waukeen, the name Toril, etc.). I don't know of other authors independently borrowing from DragonQuest. Why Dale Henson ignored Ed's notes and did what he did with Netheril remains a mystery.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 05:02 PM	Crack addiction? :smirk: Just kidding. ;) I rather liked the map though, despite its numerous mistakes. It had a very 'real' feel to it, like the ancient RW maps - "Here there be monsters" :dancin:
boards 06-12-07, 05:56 PM	Personally, I don't mind the Obould thing, although I'm pretty sure initially it was a mistake. I figure that Orcs are about as intuitive as pro-boxers, so naming ALL their children after themselves sounds about right. ;) Heh, I know some people who are called Primo and Secondo, or first and second.:D Someone had a destinct lack of creativity:P
GothicDan 06-12-07, 06:32 PM	Naming tradition among Roman families commonly used Secundus, Quintus, Sextus, etc. Well, it's nothing new - Mage, the classic rpg from White Wolf, sprung from Ars Magica concepts if I remember well - and one of the main clans from the old Vampire rpg was in fact based - if not taken semi-wholly from a group of mages from Ars Magica, also. For me, a good idea is a good idea... if you can fit it, of course. Mage is my favorite RPG (followed by Planescape), and then Ars Magica. None of what they did was really "accidental." Things went one after another, not sort of all at the same time and then stealing things from other games and shoving them into each other like they did with the Karsus crap.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 07:35 PM	Planescape was a setting, not an RPG (system). ;) Still one of the best and most intuitive settings EVA!!! Also, I would NEVER name my daughter Sextus... or my son for that matter. :yuck:
BadCatMan 06-12-07, 09:40 PM	There is a Mount Illefarn. Mountains are rather permanent (names not necessarily so), so perhaps both Illefarns were named after it. Or the first nation of Illefarn gave its name to the land and the mountain, and after it fell, the name endured, and the second Illefarn took its name from it. Heck, Karsus's PILLAR is bigger on the inside than the outside, and TALLER than the equivalent space it's supposed to occupy. Figure THAT one out. :) It's a TARDIS! Then Jeriah the Chronomancer is really a Time Lord. It all makes sense now! (Doctor Who references if nobody knows what I'm on about.)
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 11:16 PM	I caught it. The Chronomancer faked his own death, and is alive and well and living in the Chronal Prime (Time Stream). I mean, c'mon, the founder of time-related magic died because he couldn't find a cure IN TIME?! :uh-huh: As the old saying goes, I think "reports of his demise were greatly exaggerated". ;) So he's running around in a phonebooth with a young tart now, eh? :D I kinda like that thought. The Mount Ilefarn thing lends much credence to the argument, good catch. The forest of Tethir (modern day Wealdath) got its name when a Dwarf read an Elven marker with the name of an Elf (Tethir) on it, and thought it was a sign for the forest. So the Dwarves of Shanatar used an Elven name... even when the Elves didn't. In law, we call that a 'precedent'. ;)
Krash 06-13-07, 12:00 AM	-I never had any problems with there being multiple Illefarns, and multiple Oboulds, but I don't like the idea of there being who Wulgreths. I can't comment on whether or not Wulgreth is a common name, but one Wulgreth was Netherese, and the other was...from Ascalhorn (Ascalhorny is definitley not the word for someone from Ascalhorn). It's pretty rare for the same exact name to pass through the generations, and cultural boundaries, unchanged. And just where do you think the first Ascalhi came from?:) -- George Krashos
Krash 06-13-07, 12:09 AM	The Illefarn thing is just weird, and looks too obviously like a mistake. Why the hell would humans and Dwarves name their NEW kingdom after a fallen Elven kingdom. That just makes zero sense to me; it has a bad smell and no amount of 'sauce' is going to cover it up. The original elven Illefarn always had a fair dwarven presence within its borders and many dwarven neighbours. The Illefarni elves were famous for the openess and preparedness to deal with other races. They were not isolationist elves. The second "Illefarn" arose when dwarves of Dardath and elves of Ardeep (formerly a part of Illefarn, although originally part of Shantel Othreier) found themselves in common purpose to destroy the orc horde that had laid waste to Athalantar. To celebrate their victory and in recognition of their new alliance, they named their union "Illefarn", an echo of a more glorious time. I'm not sure that makes 'zero sense', but that's the way it is.:) -- George Krashos
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 01:58 PM	So, if Dwarves were involved with the first, and Elves the second, then it actually makes perfect sense. :D ESPECIALLY if the battle with the Orc Horde took place on or near Mount Ilefarn. I was just going by what others posted; I hadn't looked into Illefarn since reading the original entries back in 2e. Thanks for correcting that, I probably should have read up on it before posting my comment. And just where do you think the first Ascalhi came from?At least your not referring to them as the 'Wulgrethi'. :P
msatran 06-13-07, 04:53 PM	Uh, no, Deep Imaskari are Time Lords. Look at them. They wear huge creepy gothic greatcoats, once you leave, you can't come back, and everything is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. It's gotten to the point where the two Imaskari PC's in my Realms game (Which as you all know by now is huge) both want various objects that are bigger on the inside than the outside to move around in. It really doesn't matter, though, because for every group I always run one adventure in the "Doctor Who" style. Though it is kind of funny, we gave all the Imaskari creepy Baba Yaga style Russian Accents in the game to make them more like the thing in Fantasy that is also bigger on the inside than the outside.
Lord Karsus 06-13-07, 06:20 PM	And just where do you think the first Ascalhi came from?:) -- George Krashos -Hellgate Keep mentions that the Wulgreth from Hellgate Keep was Ascalhi, but that doesn't necessarily imply ethnicity. That could simply be citizenship. The North and The Savage Frontier don't shed any enlightening information concerning this specific problem, either. Wulgreth of Ascalhorn is just as likely to be from Tethyr, as he is from Netheril- mind you, we don't even know if Wulgreth is a Netherese name, to begin with.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 06:28 PM	When Wulgreth was hit by that glob of 'heavy magic' it de-stabilized his form, and threw him out-of-sync with his quantum universe, causing him to appear in several different chrono-periods. he is a cursed immortal being now forever shifting through time. :D Works for me. ;) And who's to say that the Chronomancer wasn't originally from Imaskar? The Netheril boxed set never really claims any of the Netherese Arcanists as being of Netherese stock, just that they were 'from' there. I think even Halaster must of spent some time amongst them, back in the days of the Sargauth enclave. (MY take, not canon) I LOVE Baba Yaga! :love: I'm actually using her in two completely seperate ways in the K-T stuff I'm doing! I really enjoyed her 'appearance' in the Starlight and Shadows trilogy as well.* *It was more like an 'almost' appearance.
captaincarot 06-14-07, 02:47 AM	i don't see any reason why a city called illefarn shouldn't appear twice, it's not an unheard of concept in the real world that the same town name be used, even in different countries. york and birmingham, for example. maybe they should have called it new illefarn, or maybe they did originally but the new got dropped.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 05:54 PM	-Springfield.
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:23 PM	Heh, LK trumps yet again...
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 06:38 PM	-That's the first compliment I have from you, Stig, in my ever-growing compliment list. :) -I'm a little feclemped over here...