Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Loestalx 03-23-07, 08:15 PM	I was wondering if there is any sensible reason to believe that they may put out some source material on the other continents of Toril. Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, Anchorome have all been almost completely swept under the rug as if WoTC wants to forget about them. Now I think some of the aspects of them are kind of silly. How in Maztica there was basically Spanish soldiers that arrived...yeah, lame. But regardless, these places have a history in the realms and I think they should either support them or sell their rights off to a third party so something can be done with them. After all, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, Anchorome are all basically taked on and force fed into Toril anyways.
Ranger REG 03-23-07, 09:01 PM	I was wondering if there is any sensible reason to believe that they may put out some source material on the other continents of Toril. Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, Anchorome have all been almost completely swept under the rug as if WoTC wants to forget about them. Either they do that out of charity, or there is profit potential. Now I think some of the aspects of them are kind of silly. How in Maztica there was basically Spanish soldiers that arrived...yeah, lame. I don't recall Spaniards in Faerun. :uh-huh: But regardless, these places have a history in the realms and I think they should either support them or sell their rights off to a third party so something can be done with them. After all, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, Anchorome are all basically taked on and force fed into Toril anyways. There need to be an audience, and not a little one. Unfortunately, the majority of D&D fans prefer Eurocentric. As for third parties, whose company do you trust?
Old Sage 03-23-07, 09:24 PM	Given WotC's "Realms-centric" focus over the core publishing period of 3e FR, it seems unlikely that Kara-Tur will feature prominently in the Realmslore. For the most part, it seems like its being left to future DRAGON articles and the odd occasional references in sourcebooks and novel to carry forward any lore about Kara-Tur -- such as The Yellow Silk. Elements of Kara-Tur received a 3e update back in Jan. 04, in DRAGON #315. And a couple of regions in Kara-Tur also received a brief nod in "The Horde" article of DRAGON #349 and its associated PDF supplement from paizo.com:- http://paizo.com/dragonissues/349/DR349_Supplement.pdf
Ranger REG 03-23-07, 09:30 PM	Given WotC's "Realms-centric" focus over the core publishing period of 3e FR, it seems unlikely that Kara-Tur will feature prominently in the Realmslore. Is it WotC's intent, or are they just following the preference of the FR fan community?
Old Sage 03-23-07, 09:41 PM	Rich Baker did note, early in 2003, that WotC intended to focus primarily on the core element of Faerûn, and that with the publication of the FRCS, that point was initially established. Whether actual declining fan numbers for the expansions or a design by WotC's Marketing Department is ultimately responsible... isn't clear. Given FR publication trends since 2001's FRCS however, it would seem that WotC have maintained that focus for the most part.
Loestalx 03-23-07, 10:42 PM	I don't recall Spaniards in Faerun. :uh-huh: As for third parties, whose company do you trust? They weren't spaniards in name, but some other country that was basically spaniards...let me look it up....Amn, is the country that is modeled after medieval france and they sailed to Maztica...sound familiar? Anyways...as for a company I trust with the material? ehh...Sovereign Press did ok with the Dragonlance stuff, althought it's pretty underpowered.
Alac Luin 03-23-07, 11:48 PM	I'm still waiting for the rumored Candlekeep Compendioum that might have a Maztica section.
Old Sage 03-23-07, 11:57 PM	We do have something special planned for that particular area of the Realms. You'll likely want to keep an eye out for future Volumes.
Ranger REG 03-24-07, 04:07 AM	We do have something special planned for that particular area of the Realms. You'll likely want to keep an eye out for future Volumes. Notify me when you get around to Kara-Tur. Seriously.
Old Sage 03-24-07, 04:57 AM	A number of the scribes involved with the "Compendium" project are attempting to include several articles on the original campaign expansions -- like Kara-Tur and Maztica for example. Depending on what makes the final cut, you'll likely find something about Kara-Tur featured in an upcoming Volume.
Francius 03-24-07, 07:06 AM	I was wondering if there is any sensible reason to believe that they may put out some source material on the other continents of Toril. Why shouldn't there be one? Abeir-Toril is not just Faerun alone, as much as that continent plays the primary role in the setting. Even the small planet of Eberron received two 160 paged resource books for its other continents of Xendrik and Sarlonna; Argonessen will soon follow.Everything in that world does not spin around Khorvaire solely. Then it's only a logical understatement that Maztica, Al-Qadim, Zakhara, Kara-Tur and the Hordelands (the continents/regions that form the rest of the Forgotten Relams' world) will eventually see light in the 3.5 by Wotc- even if they have not until now. Demand for the aforementioned Realms' settings is now higher than ever, people working on them on the net are many and well organized and the "bring 'em back" polls are running rampant everywhere. I am quite sure that next year we'll definitely get to see updates of Abeir Toril's other continents. Now I think some of the aspects of them are kind of silly. How in Maztica there was basically Spanish soldiers that arrived...yeah, lame You just voiced your personal opinion here, which by the way is not even shared by 1/4 of the rest of the Forgotten Realms' players and fans alike. I personally happen to find Maztica's history interesting, and the exploration of the "true world" daunting and exciting at the same time. I think it's silly to say that its story is lame. But regardless, these places have a history in the realms and I think they should either support them or sell their rights off to a third party so something can be done with them. After all, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, Anchorome are all basically taked on and force fed into Toril anyways. Force fed into Toril? :confused: Those continents have always been part of Abeir-Toril since the 2nd edition days and they meshed perfectly with the world's history and time flow. They will definitely see pubblish light in the curent D&D edition. Just you wait.
GothicDan 03-24-07, 10:36 AM	The other continents were NOT always a part of Faerun. TSR did not use Ed's other lands because at the time they were not "European" enough. And the 3E crew has already told us they do not at any point in the future have any plans on putting out supplements concerning those other continents. You just voiced your personal opinion here, which by the way is not even shared by 1/4 of the rest of the Forgotten Realms' players and fans alike. No. You guys are the minority. I personally happen to find Maztica's history interesting, and the exploration of the "true world" daunting and exciting at the same time. It sure is. I think it's silly to say that its story is lame. Any fantasy story that by definition is nothing but what happened in real life is lame.
Francius 03-24-07, 11:10 AM	The other continents were NOT always a part of Faerun. They have been part of Abeir-Toril since the 1st Forgotten Realms campaign setting came out. TSR did not use Ed's other lands because at the time they were not "European" enough. That's my point exactly. The Forgotten Realms are not comprised solely by Faerun. We need campaign sourcebooks about the other continents. And the 3E crew has already told us they do not at any point in the future have any plans on putting out supplements concerning those other continents. Well, that was stated about 2 years ago and since then there have been innoumerous requests to bring them back. Heck, don't you think it is normal for a campaign world to receive books about its other continents in addition? Look at Eberron. Just 4 continents and yet they're dishing out material for them albeit Khorvaire is not even one third detailed compared to Faerun. No. You guys are the minority. No we are not. Demand for the aforementioned Realms' settings is now higher than ever, people working on them on the net are many and well organized and the "bring 'em back" polls are running rampant everywhere. It sure is. Then you're one of us who want the Maztica continent back in 3.5, no? Any fantasy story that by definition is nothing but what happened in real life is lame. That's just you saying it. Bear in mind that most fantasy elements in mythology are drawn from real facts occured during Earth's history; then restated, reworded and delivered to story-telling through generations of people that made them. If I start telling you how folks in Europe first came out with Dwarves, Elves and Halflings, then you would probably find them lame too. I personally like elements drawn from real history meshed and coalished with fantasy flavor to be combined into a satisfying story. Know ye that none fantasy author has yet succeeded in creating a fictional world so vast and richly detailed like our own Earth.
creepy drifter 03-24-07, 01:50 PM	A possible interesting idea would be for WotC to publish a FRCS "other continent" sourcebook that is not specific to just one of them (Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, & Anchorome) ... but gives lesser coverage, chronology updates, and 3.5 revisions to all four. WotC could then, via customer interest & feedback, do demographic research to see which of the 4 continents has the most customer buzz/traction and high profit margin possibilities ... and then follow-up with a sourcebook detailing the most appropriate continent that fits that criteria. Yes, all this is a gamble for WotC due to the FR demographic's preference for more Euro-centric D&D gaming. But it's a possible marketing angle that might minimize the risk and potential $$ loss in such an expansion to the FRCS world.
Alac Luin 03-24-07, 10:52 PM	We do have something special planned for that particular area of the Realms. You'll likely want to keep an eye out for future Volumes. I'm keeping an I out, waiting patiently. Well, sort of patiently :D
GothicDan 03-24-07, 11:13 PM	They have been part of Abeir-Toril since the 1st Forgotten Realms campaign setting came out. I didn't say they weren't. And that doesn't make their existence any more interesting. The Forgotten Realms are not comprised solely by Faerun. We need campaign sourcebooks about the other continents. No, we need campaign sourcebooks about other interesting continents. Well, that was stated about 2 years ago and since then there have been innoumerous requests to bring them back. Innumerous? How many? Heck, don't you think it is normal for a campaign world to receive books about its other continents in addition? Only if those continents were properly worked into the original campaign setting's history and theme. Look at Eberron. I don't need to look at any other campaign setting to make judgments about FR. Demand for the aforementioned Realms' settings is now higher than ever, people working on them on the net are many and well organized and the "bring 'em back" polls are running rampant everywhere. And the people who are vocal on the internet are in the minority in the first place. So, yes, you ARE in the minority. Mind you, I'm almost always in the minority when it comes to most aspects about RPGs. I'm not saying it like it's a bad thing. Then you're one of us who want the Maztica continent back in 3.5, no? Not at all. Just because something is interesting doesn't mean it's thematically topical. I think that quantum mechanics is incredibly interesting, but I don't want a sourcebook dedicated to it in Faerun. Bear in mind that most fantasy elements in mythology are drawn from real facts occured during Earth's history; then restated, reworded and delivered to story-telling through generations of people that made them. Drawn from yes. If I start telling you how folks in Europe first came out with Dwarves, Elves and Halflings, then you would probably find them lame too. Which has nothing to do with what actually HAPPENED IN REAL LIFE. I personally like elements drawn from real history meshed and coalished with fantasy flavor to be combined into a satisfying story. That's fine. But what you personally like (or what even I personally like) doesn't mean that it is good to put into something. Know ye that none fantasy author has yet succeeded in creating a fictional world so vast and richly detailed like our own Earth. Nope. I'm working on getting as close as I can to that point, though.
Ranger REG 03-25-07, 04:38 AM	A possible interesting idea would be for WotC to publish a FRCS "other continent" sourcebook that is not specific to just one of them (Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, & Anchorome) ... but gives lesser coverage, chronology updates, and 3.5 revisions to all four. No one likes a product with no depth in content and information. :noway:
Stigger 03-25-07, 07:39 AM	Gotta agree with Dan there, overall. As to being a minority, you have to ask yourself who is doing this stuff, and how many of them are the same 50 people clamoring over a topic who hope that volume of noise will be cause WotC to come over to their side and start putting out the books they want to see. But until WotC's inbox gets deluged with multiple emails and comment cards, and whatnot, from many, many, many different people, they're probably going to dismiss the requests as a vocal minority getting loud. Get enough people sending emails and letters and you probably have a good shot at it, otherwise they're probably just going to ignore it.
Alac Luin 03-25-07, 06:25 PM	The idea creepy drifter had could possibly work IF there were things akin to the 2ed green books for of the areas. I'm still not sure if there is enough interest in the Mezzo-America region to warrant a core book in that area, sales wise.
FrustratedRealmsFan 03-25-07, 07:44 PM	Personally, I don't care if they bring back Maztica... I just want to see the core rulebook map extended south and east for 3.x... Kara-Tur and Zakhara were just as popular as Faerun among my second edition gaming groups, and part of it is personal aesthetics... I hate not being able to visually circumnavigate a continent without leaving the map. Besides, the cutoff point for particularly the eastern edge of the 3E map was shockingly arbitrary... either cut it off at the Sunrise and Dragonsword Mountains, or extend it at least to the Firepeaks in the Hordelands. The map as it exists gives us half of the geography of two major cultural groups, and I find myself thinking of various comic strips in which the characters suddenly find themselves standing in a blank frame because the author has either grown tired of his creation or run out of ideas... the final installment of "SnarfQuest" comes to mind.
Lord Karsus 03-26-07, 12:45 AM	-I agree with Dan about 90%. -The current Maztica is ___________. A) Boring B) A History Book C) Uninspiring D) A puzzle piece that doesn't really fit, as it stands now E) All of the above
Francius 03-26-07, 01:15 PM	I didn't say they weren't. And that doesn't make their existence any more interesting. Yes you did say that they weren't. Originally Posted by GothicDan The other continents were NOT always a part of Faerun. To which I then answered you that they were since the 1st edition campaign. I already told you that their existence is of much interest. Which other setting can say that it includes such cultures as the the Realms' Maztica? No, we need campaign sourcebooks about other interesting continents. IN FACT that's exactly what I quoted. You responded me with my same exact quote. Are we getting a connection here Dan? These are the other FR continents:Maztica, Zaccara, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, south Maztica and the huge continent on the south eastern of the planet's map Innumerous? How many? Many. You don't expect me to give you a number here are you? Only if those continents were properly worked into the original campaign setting's history and theme. Oh, but they are. Previously you told me you had a clue about Maztica's history. Then I presume you were just *cough*BSing*cough*. I don't need to look at any other campaign setting to make judgments about FR. You need. They are all part of a Fantasy world. Why can't we take an example from our neighboor? (even if he's smaller and less experienced) And the people who are vocal on the internet are in the minority in the first place. So, yes, you ARE in the minority. How do you know that? You do not happen to have access to a "Statistic blog about the FR fans who want the Maztica back in 3.5, (as oppposed to those who do not want it back) measuring only the answers from those aforementioned fans who have web access and do vote for their request", now do you? Many people are asking for Maztica to return in the 3.5 edition.And the majority of persons who play D&D, do have access to internet. Not at all. Just because something is interesting doesn't mean it's thematically topical. I think that quantum mechanics is incredibly interesting, but I don't want a sourcebook dedicated to it in Faerun. Oh yeah. You first go and say that you like the Maztica fantasy setting as interesting to be explored, yet you wouldn't like it incorporated in your favourite fantasy world. To justify that controversary statement of yours, you say you like quantum mechanics but you wouldn't like to see them pubblished for...FAERUN??? Sure.Like the the two things (Maztica and quantum mechanics) are somehow related in the same way when it comes to Faerun. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Your example is irrelevant and out of place as much as it is funny. That's fine. But what you personally like (or what even I personally like) doesn't mean that it is good to put into something. The same thing goes for: What you personally DO NOT like does not mean that it is not good to be pubblished. Other persons may like it and want it to be pubblished. Look:They only need to give us a single 160 paged book about Maztica and/or Abeir-Toril's other continents and see how it fares in the RP market. Heck, even if it won't sell well(which I think is highly unlikely), it's only a loss worth of a single book...see how Wotc's other pubblished books for the core D&D series sold cráp yet they continued pubblishing more that go even worse in the sales figures. Just go and read what people say in the "future releases" thread. You'll see what I mean. Nope. I'm working on getting as close as I can to that point, though. Are you working on a world of your own, almost as much huge and detailed as Earth and Abeir-Toril themselves? :eek: Personally I 'm more than happy and satisfied with my Forgotten Realms so thanks but no thanks. I'll just pass.
Lord Karsus 03-26-07, 04:42 PM	Which other setting can say that it includes such cultures as the the Realms' Maztica? -One we are all familiar with- Earth. These are the other FR continents:Maztica, Zaccara, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, south Maztica and the huge continent on the south eastern of the planet's map. -You forgot a few of them, but that is not why I am posting. Al-Qadim is not a continent. Furthermore, Al-Qadim is the setting name of Zakhara, which you mispelled 'Zaccara'. Oh, but they are. Previously you told me you had a clue about Maztica's history. Then I presume you were just *cough*BSing*cough*. -No, they're not. I, and many other people find it very difficult to believe that Maztica and Latin America evolved so similarly, almost to the point that they mirror each other. Same thing with Kara-Tur. They aren't very well worked into the setting, because if they were, they wouldn't mirror the actual world so much. You need. They are all part of a Fantasy world. Why can't we take an example from our neighboor? (even if he's smaller and less experienced) -Eh, not really, and I am studying Comparative Criminal Justice. A person doesn't have to look at another culture, civilization, whatever, to measure how far along theirs is. How do you know that? You do not happen to have access to a "Statistic blog about the FR fans who want the Maztica back in 3.5, (as oppposed to those who do not want it back) measuring only the answers from those aforementioned fans who have web access and do vote for their request", now do you? Many people are asking for Maztica to return in the 3.5 edition.And the majority of persons who play D&D, do have access to internet. -The majority of D&D players are not registered on the WotC message boards. Thus, those of us who are, and frequently post here, are the minority. Furthermore, the majority of the minority (Meaning, most of us here), do not like Maztica as it was presented, and would like to see it eventually redone, to make it more unique, but would rather have more Faerûnian sourcebooks, bumping a potential Maztica book back. Sure.Like the the two things (Maztica and quantum mechanics) are somehow related in the same way when it comes to Faerun. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Your example is irrelevant and out of place as much as it is funny. -You missed the point of what he was saying. He was right, by the way. Read it again.
Ranger REG 03-26-07, 08:33 PM	-I agree with Dan about 90%. -The current Maztica is ___________. A) Boring B) A History Book C) Uninspiring D) A puzzle piece that doesn't really fit, as it stands now E) All of the above Then what would be your ideal Maztica?
Alac Luin 03-26-07, 09:13 PM	Besides forgetting that it does exist in published Realms, things that may help Maztica.... Stop/limit the parallels to the European colonization of Central America. Focus and expand on the interactions of the natives of that land. (how do the dog people interact with the Payit and the Cult of Zaltec "monsters".......). Better detailing of organizations; what goes on in an eagle knight lodge (how about giving it a more "organic" name like what do they call it in the native tongue), expanding on the clergy of the various religions.... A better detail of the area's history. We have a long detail of the deities, and references to the past, but it is all presented through the eyes of newcomer (intentional or not, this is the "feel" it gives, at least to me).
Loestalx 03-26-07, 09:23 PM	Wow, didn't expect this threat to grow like this. Maztica is weak on almost all accounts because it is simply real world history with different names. If you find that interesting...read a history book or you may as well just play a historical Central America/South America game. If I created a setting that mirrored Dragonlance exactly...you surely wouldn't be claiming that it was good or interesting, you would call me a hack. Same goes for Maztica and the majority of the other continents out there. The point of my post was asking if they were going to update the material, modernize it and refresh it so it's not the same as it was. If they are going to put out a 3rd ed version of these continents and keep them virtually the same I would just wish they left it alone.
Lord Karsus 03-26-07, 10:50 PM	Then what would be your ideal Maztica? -Similar to what we are/were trying to do in the Kara-Tur thread. This about says it all: Stop/limit the parallels to the European colonization of Central America. Focus and expand on the interactions of the natives of that land. (how do the dog people interact with the Payit and the Cult of Zaltec "monsters".......). Better detailing of organizations; what goes on in an eagle knight lodge (how about giving it a more "organic" name like what do they call it in the native tongue), expanding on the clergy of the various religions.... A better detail of the area's history. We have a long detail of the deities, and references to the past, but it is all presented through the eyes of newcomer (intentional or not, this is the "feel" it gives, at least to me). -I want to like Maztica, but the way that it is now gives me few reasons to like the continent.
Dark Wizard 03-26-07, 11:30 PM	To which I then answered you that they were since the 1st edition campaign. I believe Dan might have meant in the original material that Ed sent to TSR and in the original publication line of the Realms. Meaning even places like the Old empires or the Lands of Intrigue/Empires of the Shining Sea drew from Ed's notes, no matter how vague he was about those areas at that point in time. Now before people start calling me an Ed cultists, allow me to explain. I feel it is very important for a setting to maintain a general notion of theme and basic internal consistency, especially in the beginning. This is where Ed's notes come in. As the creator of the setting (which is doing well, particularly in the original core Heartlands and Sword Coast areas of the Realms) he set precedents, which many authors followed and added to based on what he laid out. By adding in entire continents, which were essentially big blank slates, at that early point in the setting's publication history, you get places that don't feel like they belong on the same world. i feel this has done as much to hurt these sub-settings, more so than they have annoyed Faerun fans. Which other setting can say that it includes such cultures as the the Realms' Maztica? Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne. Possibly Howard's Hyborian age, which combined New World influences with a Celtic base. Or so I've read in summaries and analyses of the peoples and races of the Hyborian age. How do you know that? You do not happen to have access to a "Statistic blog about the FR fans who want the Maztica back in 3.5, (as opposed to those who do not want it back) measuring only the answers from those aforementioned fans who have web access and do vote for their request", now do you? Many people are asking for Maztica to return in the 3.5 edition.And the majority of persons who play D&D, do have access to internet. How do you know what you're saying is true, beyond fuzzy inference based on the heavily biased and tiny sample of the gaming population represented by these forums? What Dan said has been hinted by Realms designers and WotC employees. What solid numbers are you basing your statements on other than your casual observations? Look:They only need to give us a single 160 paged book about Maztica and/or Abeir-Toril's other continents and see how it fares in the RP market. Unlike FR, Core D&D has less of an overarching theme or storyline. Coupled with their larger publication schedule, Core can afford to experiment. One bad book is not going to end the entire D&D line. However, one weak book has a significant effect on FR since it only gets 3-5 books a year. While I hope for an update of Kara-Tur and Zakhara, I understand the pressures preventing such a publication. Heck, even if it won't sell well(which I think is highly unlikely), it's only a loss worth of a single book...see how Wotc's other pubblished books for the core D&D series sold cráp yet they continued pubblishing more that go even worse in the sales figures. Just go and read what people say in the "future releases" thread. WotC typically doesn't publish more material based on a book that didn't sell well. Take for example the Warlock from Complete Arcane, it was well received, thus they released a decent amount of material for Warlocks in subsequent books (notably Complete Mage, the follow up to Complete Arcane). Magic of Incarnum did not do as well, so we rarely see new Incarnum material. It is a business after all. People on the Future Release forum don't know what they want if you take an average. Every point, suggestion, criticism, poll, survey, discussion and chat is countered by it's opposite and a dozen other variations at any one time. Then what would be your ideal Maztica? One that respects the source, the real world peoples and cultures that inspired it. Basically a setting that doesn't throw in western/European invaders/colonists with Native American/Meso-American cultures as if Native Americans/Meso-Americans characters cannot carry a story by themselves.
Francius 03-27-07, 06:49 AM	My, if it isn't our friendly neighborhood drow, responding to posts that were not directed at him instead of the specific poster. Then that would make you...let's see... a drow-lawyer? :D -One we are all familiar with- Earth. I said setting; meaning a FANTASY WORLD, not our own Earth. Shoosh... :rolleyes: You forgot a few of them, but that is not why I am posting. Al-Qadim is not a continent. Just like Europe and Asia are on the same continent (eurasia) but are often regarded as being separated continents, in the same way I refer to Al-Qadim, Kar-Tur and Faerun as separated ones even if they are on the same geological landform. -No, they're not. I, and many other people find it very difficult to believe that Maztica and Latin America evolved so similarly, almost to the point that they mirror each other. Same thing with Kara-Tur. You are quite wrong. Maztica is not like Latin America at all. That's a common mistake people who haven't read correctly the setting make. You make it too. Maztica is divided into the nations of Nexal, Kultaka, Huacli, Kolan, Pezelac, and Payit. These nations' story and their geography parallels the American continents in the time of their discovery by Christopher Columbus and more exactly Mesoamerica. This culture area included some of the most complex and advanced cultures of the America, including the Olmec, Teotihuacan, the Maya, and the Aztec. Is that clearer now? They aren't very well worked into the setting, because if they were, they wouldn't mirror the actual world so much. That's just you and your opinion. I think Maztica and Kara-Tur are very interesting settings and excellently worked into the Forgotten Realms and their story is very well tied too in the grand picture of Abeir-Toril. Just download and read Mike R. James' "A Grand history of the Realms" and see how the two aforementioned settings fit in it. That being said,I think you're way off road in your opinion. But oh well that's just Karsus (the mad). :D Eh, not really, and I am studying Comparative Criminal Justice. A person doesn't have to look at another culture, civilization, whatever, to measure how far along theirs is. You say you're a student yet you missed the number one thing they teach you at University: A person has to look at other cultures, civilizations and nations to measure how far along theirs is.Not to copy them, but to compare himself with them and to learn from them.That's the way that leads to improvement. I'm really sorry for you. -The majority of D&D players are not registered on the WotC message boards. Thus, those of us who are, and frequently post here, are the minority. How do you know that? You happen to know THAT many people who play D&D? Well, the vast majority of role players I know (from Italy AND Europe, and there are quite a big score) have Internet access and visit regularly these and other role playing boards - even if they don't have an account. Also bear in mind that not having an account can't deny you to vote in a poll such as (for example) to bring back a setting of a certain fantasy world. Furthermore, the majority of the minority (Meaning, most of us here), do not like Maztica as it was presented, and would like to see it eventually redone, to make it more unique, but would rather have more Faerûnian sourcebooks, bumping a potential Maztica book back. I personally love how Maztica was presented, and the vast majority of role players who play Forgotten Realms(of course) agree with me, but in the case some would like to see a somehow slightly different setting of the original then fine, as long as they keep the basic core on which they built it intact. I already said that I 've seen innumerous requests on the Internet about bringing back the Maztica seeting (and also Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim and the Hordelands).Heck, I even encountered some of them petitions here on the Wotc generic boards - and of course I signed them.If you're somehow fat-headed and can't digest what I write go search for yourself those petitions and see. -You missed the point of what he was saying. He was right, by the way. Read it again. No. It is you who missed it. Go re-read what he first said and why I answered him that way. You'll notice how his example was WAY OUT OF WAY.
Francius 03-27-07, 07:27 AM	I believe Dan might have meant in the original material that Ed sent to TSR and in the original publication line of the Realms. Meaning even places like the Old empires or the Lands of Intrigue/Empires of the Shining Sea drew from Ed's notes, no matter how vague he was about those areas at that point in time. We all know that the Forgotten Realms is a collective effort of many of fantasy literature's best, but since we cannot start a discussion of what has happened before the "old grey box" came out (because that would be inaccurate, inadequate to this thread and time consuming), it's better and more proper to say that those seetings have always been part of Abeir-Toril since the days the first official campaign setting came out. Now before people start calling me an Ed cultists, allow me to explain. I feel it is very important for a setting to maintain a general notion of theme and basic internal consistency, especially in the beginning. This is where Ed's notes come in. As the creator of the setting (which is doing well, particularly in the original core Heartlands and Sword Coast areas of the Realms) he set precedents, which many authors followed and added to based on what he laid out. By adding in entire continents, which were essentially big blank slates, at that early point in the setting's publication history, you get places that don't feel like they belong on the same world. i feel this has done as much to hurt these sub-settings, more so than they have annoyed Faerun fans. Hey,I 'm a Greenwood cultist too. Ed designed in the beginning a continent that resembled a traditional fantasy medieval world. Thus Faerun is exclusively Ed's work (in the beginning and regarding the gross details -at least-). But since Faerun needed to grow at some point before being officially given to TSR and the rest of the Abeir-Toril needed to be at least superficially explored, it's only natural that other writers/designers took Ed's ideas and shaped/developped them in order for the Fogotten Realms to achieve its final form. That being said I don't hink that they are badly incorporated in the Forgotten Realms'canon though.I think they are perfectly coalished in the whole picture and in relation to Fareun. Remeber that Faerun is just a small (in comparison) continent being hugged by a planet and other places that are ultimately bigger than it. Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne. I have no knowledge of that setting and still I highly doubt it is so much alike Maztica. Possibly Howard's Hyborian age, which combined New World influences with a Celtic base. Or so I've read in summaries and analyses of the peoples and races of the Hyborian age. No. You are very mistaken. New world influences in Conan's age simply did not exist becuse hyboria was actually Europe, Asia and Africa combined in a single continent, before the oceans swallowed the Atlantis and that huge continent divided itself in smaller ones. The "new world" was way off in the east from Conan's world and Hyboria had nothing to do with it. How do you know what you're saying is true, beyond fuzzy inference based on the heavily biased and tiny sample of the gaming population represented by these forums? What Dan said has been hinted by Realms designers and WotC employees. What solid numbers are you basing your statements on other than your casual observations? And how would you know that what Dan says is true(that very few would lkie to see , beyond fuzzy inference based on the heavily biased and tiny sample of the gaming population represented by these forums?(which by the way I don't think at all that these forums present a "heavily biased and tiny sample of the gaming population" Hinted by Wotc employees and Ralms designers? Right.Basing your opinion on facts stated three or maybe more years ago. This question of yours, Dark Wizard, shows that you did not read my previous posts at all or you either did and afterwards you neglected them. Anyhow, I 'll tell you again that demand for the aforementioned Realms' settings is now higher than ever, people working on them on the net are many and well organized and the "bring 'em back" polls are running rampant everywhere. One is able to draw info from the various things he sees, the various role players he meets and the various sites he visits. If you are still unable to draw a conclusion and shape your opinion from these facts, then I guess you should sharpen your perception skills. Unlike FR, Core D&D has less of an overarching theme or storyline. Coupled with their larger publication schedule, Core can afford to experiment. One bad book is not going to end the entire D&D line. However, one weak book has a significant effect on FR since it only gets 3-5 books a year. While I hope for an update of Kara-Tur and Zakhara, I understand the pressures preventing such a publication. It's still only one book they should try and pubblish. And you're talking about how they can't afford experiments? Pubblishing a campaign expansion book for a specific setting it's only a natural sequence if not a necessary one. If what you say was meant to have a sense, then Wotc would just have to do the same thing about Eberron:pubblish material just about Khorvaire. Which is clearly not the case as they have already put out two other sourcebooks for its other continents. People on the Future Release forum don't know what they want if you take an average. Every point, suggestion, criticism, poll, survey, discussion and chat is countered by it's opposite and a dozen other variations at any one time. From my experience I can say that some clear points out of those forum can actually be fished, and you would too if you read them with more attention. One that respects the source, the real world peoples and cultures that inspired it. Basically a setting that doesn't throw in western/European invaders/colonists with Native American/Meso-American cultures as if Native Americans/Meso-Americans characters cannot carry a story by themselves. Hey, that quote wasn't even mine. Anyway your desire is quite clear and I agree that such a setting should have your mentioned characteristics. But bottomline I disagree with you again since I believe Maztica is very well conceived and has everything you ask for - and more.Besides, I already expressed myself by saying that I like elements drawn from real history meshed and coalished with fantasy flavor to be combined into a satisfying story. Maztica needs to see pubblishing light in 3.5. Just like the other Abeir-Toril continents have to.
Stigger 03-27-07, 08:58 AM	I said setting; meaning a FANTASY WORLD, not our own Earth. If you include d20 Modern or the World of Darkness, among others, Earth easily qualifies as a fantasy setting, if we're going to get nitpicky about it. Just like Europe and Asia are on the same continent (eurasia) but are often regarded as being separated continents, in the same way I refer to Al-Qadim, Kar-Tur and Faerun as separated ones even if they are on the same geological landform. The Al-Qadim comment was in reference to the fact that the continent is properly called Zakhara, not Al-Qadim, if I'm not mistaken. It was a correction of your misuse of that term I believe. You are quite wrong. Maztica is not like Latin America at all. That's a common mistake people who haven't read correctly the setting make. You make it too. Maztica is divided into the nations of Nexal, Kultaka, Huacli, Kolan, Pezelac, and Payit. These nations' story and their geography parallels the American continents in the time of their discovery by Christopher Columbus and more exactly Mesoamerica. This culture area included some of the most complex and advanced cultures of the America, including the Olmec, Teotihuacan, the Maya, and the Aztec. Is that clearer now? Well, considering that Latin America is what Mesoamerica morphed into after the Spanish Conquest, I'd say it was as good a name as any for it, as they both essentially refer to the same geographic area. I could be wrong, but I think the problem LK and Dan were getting at was that it was essentially an analog of the historical region rather than something that was simply inspired by the culture and region. The historic parallels were too close, and not entirely sensical given the history of the Realms and the already established way things worked. Big question, why exactly would the Church of Helm go nuts and start trying to conquer the natives? I could see Amn doing it maybe, but the Helmites were just a strange twist that didn't make much sense given the overall context of the faith. That's just you and your opinion. I think Maztica and Kara-Tur are very interesting settings and excellently worked into the Forgotten Realms and their story is very well tied too in the grand picture of Abeir-Toril. Just download and read Mike R. James' "A Grand history of the Realms" and see how the two aforementioned settings fit in it. That being said,I think you're way off road in your opinion. An opinion by definition can't be way off, simply not to your liking. Might want to take that into account. You think the setting is interesting and well put together, others don't. It's as simple as that, no ones right, no one's wrong. You say you're a student yet you missed the number one thing they teach you at University: A person has to look at other cultures, civilizations and nations to measure how far along theirs is.Not to copy them, but to compare himself with them and to learn from them.That's the way that leads to improvement. I'm really sorry for you. That's one method of doing it... there are other methods however that are equally as valid. You don't have to do that however, which was LK's point if you go back and read it. The other point I suspect he was trying to make is that it doesn't matter what Eberron's doing, it is irrelevant to anything to do with the Forgotten Realms. Just because Eberron's developers are doing things a certain way does not mean that the Realms developers are going to do the same thing. How do you know that? You happen to know THAT many people who play D&D? Well, the vast majority of role players I know (from Italy AND Europe, and there are quite a big score) have Internet access and visit regularly these and other role playing boards - even if they don't have an account. Also bear in mind that not having an account can't deny you to vote in a poll such as (for example) to bring back a setting of a certain fantasy world. The same thing could be asked of you really. Unless someone has hard data in front of them, it's simply a matter of perception of the general interest, colored by their own likes and dislikes as to how that gets interpreted. It's a pointless arguement really, since I'm not aware of any numbers that give a good picture of it one way or another. You're arguing perception here, and that's doomed from the start. I personally love how Maztica was presented, and the vast majority of role players who play Forgotten Realms(of course) agree with me, but in the case some would like to see a somehow slightly different setting of the original then fine, as long as they keep the basic core on which they built it intact. I already said that I 've seen innumerous requests on the Internet about bringing back the Maztica seeting (and also Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim and the Hordelands).Heck, I even encountered some of them petitions here on the Wotc generic boards - and of course I signed them.If you're somehow fat-headed and can't digest what I write go search for yourself those petitions and see. Again, you have no way of knowing that the 'vast majority' agrees with you or not, simply a perception of it. Conversely, no one has anything that says the 'vast majority' agrees with their opinions on the matter either, except perhaps WotC, and we'll see the results of that in upcoming publishing schedules. No. It is you who missed it. Go re-read what he first said and why I answered him that way. You'll notice how his example was WAY OUT OF WAY. He's right. You did miss the point there and read it far too literally. Quantum Physics wasn't the point, and he could have said underwater basketweaving and still said the same thing. The point, if I may hazard a guess as to Dan's intent, was that there are a lot of subject matters out there, and some are appropriate, and others are not, given the context and flavor of the setting. Given that, from what I gathered, Dan feels that the Maztica setting is essentially a history book of Mesoamerica with a few names changed, it is as appropriate to the Realms as a sourcbook on Quantum Physics. If you can stick in a history book (twice, if you count Kara-Tur :P ), why not a Physics book... neither of which makes much sense given the history of the Realms. It was a subtle rebuke of the setting cleaving too closely to the real world, which I think you missed.
Lord Karsus 03-27-07, 09:21 AM	My, if it isn't our friendly neighborhood drow, responding to posts that were not directed at him instead of the specific poster. Then that would make you...let's see... a drow-lawyer? :D -Hm, you must know something that I don't know, 'cause I know that I don't like Drow too much. I said setting; meaning a FANTASY WORLD, not our own Earth. Shoosh... :rolleyes: -Fine. d20 Modern. d20 Medieval. Whatever you want to call it... Just like Europe and Asia are on the same continent (eurasia) but are often regarded as being separated continents, in the same way I refer to Al-Qadim, Kar-Tur and Faerun as separated ones even if they are on the same geological landform. -Again, there is no such continent as al-Qadim. Let me try to make it a little more simple for you: al-Qadim = Zakhara. You are quite wrong. Maztica is not like Latin America at all. That's a common mistake people who haven't read correctly the setting make. You make it too. Maztica is divided into the nations of Nexal, Kultaka, Huacli, Kolan, Pezelac, and Payit. These nations' story and their geography parallels the American continents in the time of their discovery by Christopher Columbus and more exactly Mesoamerica. This culture area included some of the most complex and advanced cultures of the America, including the Olmec, Teotihuacan, the Maya, and the Aztec. Is that clearer now? -I really suggest that you read up on your Mezo-American history, then, if you don't see any complete parallels between Maztica and Central America circa the 15th and 16th centuries. By the way, Latin America and Meso-America are synonymous, for the most part. That's just you and your opinion. I think Maztica and Kara-Tur are very interesting settings and excellently worked into the Forgotten Realms and their story is very well tied too in the grand picture of Abeir-Toril. -We must be looking at two different things. How exactly does Maztica fit in the Realms very well? Why do defining events there unfold exactly like what happened in the actual world? Do you know the actual odds for something like that happening? Just download and read Mike R. James' "A Grand history of the Realms" and see how the two aforementioned settings fit in it. -It's Brian James, not Mike. That being said,I think you're way off road in your opinion. But oh well that's just Karsus (the mad). :D -I am Lord Karsus, not Karsus the Mad. It's not that difficult...:rolleyes: You say you're a student yet you missed the number one thing they teach you at University: A person has to look at other cultures, civilizations and nations to measure how far along theirs is.Not to copy them, but to compare himself with them and to learn from them.That's the way that leads to improvement. -Maybe they teach you things like that in Europe, but here, in the 'States we have something called 'options'- there is more than one way to do things, and then get a result... -In order to benchmark your own society, you compare it to your own society of days gone by. I'm really sorry for you. -I echo the same sentiments concerning yourself, actually. Funny... How do you know that? You happen to know THAT many people who play D&D? Well, the vast majority of role players I know (from Italy AND Europe, and there are quite a big score) have Internet access and visit regularly these and other role playing boards - even if they don't have an account. Also bear in mind that not having an account can't deny you to vote in a poll such as (for example) to bring back a setting of a certain fantasy world. -It is statistically sound to compare Soucebook sales, and then Messageboard membership, and then say that the majority of people who own the PHB (Assuming they play D&D) are not registered here. I personally love how Maztica was presented, and the vast majority of role players who play Forgotten Realms(of course) agree with me, but in the case some would like to see a somehow slightly different setting of the original then fine, as long as they keep the basic core on which they built it intact. -No, the majority of the populace does not. That is why the entire Maztica line was dropped. Do you think TSR/WotC would drop something that was selling like a hot potato? I already said that I 've seen innumerous requests on the Internet about bringing back the Maztica seeting (and also Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim and the Hordelands).Heck, I even encountered some of them petitions here on the Wotc generic boards - and of course I signed them.If you're somehow fat-headed and can't digest what I write go search for yourself those petitions and see. -I'm not even going to respond to a flame like that...:rolleyes: No. It is you who missed it. Go re-read what he first said and why I answered him that way. You'll notice how his example was WAY OUT OF WAY. -Again, read what he said. I'll wait for an apology concerning that one (although, I don't expect to get one).
Alediran 03-27-07, 10:06 AM	LK, never mind him, he is as far from Latin America as I am from Japan. Having studied Mesoamerica for a complete year in History during High School and having read the Maztica book I belive I have enough material to give my opinion, wich mirrors GD's and LK's view. There is a difference in how Eberron's continents are published, since they were delevoped from the begining by it's reator, they are better written. While the continent's that surround Faerûn where written in haste and without much thinking, that is the reason they hadn't a good acceptance as those in Eberron because they felt like a rushed attempt to fill empty spaces. As for how many people who play D&D that aren't registered in this boards I can tell you something about it. I know more than 30th D&D gamers just here in Buenos Aires, and I'm the only one who participates in the WotC forum. I was DMing during the official WotC D&D day on November and they where more than a hundred heads there, and I'm still the only argentinian here. We are minority, like it or not (and don't even attempt to use the undeveloped region tag as an excuse, broadband connections grow at a rate of 69% every year, my friends and I have internet access both at home and at work).
Fokinther 03-27-07, 06:54 PM	Hello, everyone, I have quite a soft spot for the Mesoamerican civilizations, but when I took a look at Maztica I didn't really like what I saw. So I am in the process of changing it- writing a mini sourcebook and actually detailing the place (in my spare time). I for one do not see the Church of Helm and the folk of Amn playing Conquistador, and why exactly would the god of guardians and his followers seek to dominate the natives? In any case, I want to change the setting, and these are some of my ideas for changes to the setting. In my Maztica Sourcebook Idea... Settlers The events in the Maztica Trilogy did not happen. The Golden Legion were not the first foreigners to set foot on Maztica. Instead, the folk of Katashaka to the south arrived first,(quite some time ago) setting up trading posts and building a few cities on the southern coast. Note: the Katashakans (as far as I know) are the kin of the Chultans, and live on the continent south of the New World. The Zakharans also traded with the Mazticans, and have a few ports on the coasts of Far Payit (the southeastern peninsula of the continent) As the peopleof Far Payit are quite peaceful and tolerant folk, they do not make war with the Zakharans. Some cities of Far Payit are joint communities, and feature a bizarre mix of Zakharan and Payit architecture, bloodlines, and beliefs. The Faerunians are relatively new arrivals to the shores of Maztica, although tales of a distant land far to the west have been heard of for a long time. In fact, some races (like the Aaracocra) come from Maztica (or was it Anchorome, the continent to the north?) As conducting actual warfare against the organized nations of the New World will be next to impossible (think of the sheer distance and logistics issues involved. Gunpowder weapons are very, very rare in the realms, so you can count those advantages out for the most part), even the most warlike Faerunian nation must resort to trading with the Mazticans. As Maztica represents a very valuable source of trade goods, many nations have set up trade links with the nations on the far side of the Trackless Sea. As the nation of Payit is the nearest and most easily accessible, many Faerunian nations have entered into treaties with the Payits and (with permission) have set up trading posts and small forts along the coastline (and on some of the outlying islands). Current Realms nations with trading posts/trading links to the New World: Luskan, Ruathym, the Moonshaes, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Amn (no Conquistadors), Tethyr, Calimshan, Lantan, Lapaliiya, Nimbral(maybe) and Tashalar. Many of these nations' trading colonies could be in competition, allowing for lots of political intrigue and rivalry. I n addition, all this trade flowing from Maztica to Faerun has drawn pirates like a candle flame draws moths. If you want, you could add a few off-shore island chains to the coastline of Maztica, and run a Pirates of the Caribbean-type game. As for the level of integration between the two lands- there are lots of adventurous young Mazticans who are eager to see the realms (and have migrated in significant numbers to the coastal cities of Faerun) and there are a large amount of Faerunians who wish to brave this (to them) New World for gold, glory, knowledge, and all manner of other goals. Ulatos, the capital of the Payit nation, has become a bustling hub of trade, intrigue, and rivalry, and is commonly known as the city where two worlds meet. So what do you think?
Alac Luin 03-27-07, 06:54 PM	You are quite wrong. Maztica is not like Latin America at all. That's a common mistake people who haven't read correctly the setting make. You make it too. Maztica is divided into the nations of Nexal, Kultaka, Huacli, Kolan, Pezelac, and Payit. These nations' story and their geography parallels the American continents in the time of their discovery by Christopher Columbus and more exactly Mesoamerica. This culture area included some of the most complex and advanced cultures of the America, including the Olmec, Teotihuacan, the Maya, and the Aztec. Is that clearer now? The two lines I put into bold kind of contradict each other. It's nothing like it, but it parallels it.:confused: Don't get me wrong, I love Mazitca. I believe it has a great potential. (I'll take the correction of Mesoamerica, I personally hate that word for no good reason.) In the past, I've tried to update the rules from the boxed set to 3 ed rules, and post them on the boards here. I am a fan of this sub-setting, despite the shortcoming in the way it was originally presented. If you want to see even more parallels, read the history of Cortez and re-read Cordel's story. (both men even burned their boats to keep their men there).
Fokinther 03-27-07, 07:46 PM	My Maztica Idea, Part Two... Next comes my ideas of reworking the nations and peoples of Maztica, and also a couple of my ideas on the background of the place. As the continent where the Aearee-krocaa (see Candlekeep Compendium's article on this Creator Race) vanished into the pages of history (although their Aaracocra descendents remain), Maztica (and Anchorome to the north) could be riddled with the ruins of this ancient race. Perhaps the natives of Maztica have a dim memory (in their mythology, perhaps) of great feathered gods who came from the sky (in von Daniken style, maybe?) and who may one day return. Perhaps some signs of the Aearee-krokaa remain, such as the crashed, vine-choked remains of an Aearee flying city lying where it fell deep in the rainforest, or colossal stone heads (like those Olmec Heads, but looking like birds) carved by the natives in ancient times as an act of reverence to these winged, god-like (to primitive humans) beings. Moving on to the nations of Maztica, in my setting idea the ones from the Maztica Campaing Setting set remain (partly because I haven't gotten many ideas on how to develop them yet). I've thought of a few new ideas, but am unsure how to implement them. I need to make them more "realmsy", and less like real-world copies. They'll still need to retain a Mesoamerican flavour, though. The Payit Nation is largely "as is" at the moment, but isn't conquered by those (now non-existent) Conquistadors. They are the ones largely benefitting from the trade with the Faerunians, and they are adapting well to the new technologies and people coming in from the rest of the Forgotten Realms. The peoples of Maztica are not as low-tech as most think- if you want, they could be using bronze or even iron weapons (saving obsidian for ceremonial purposes). The main challenge the Payits face is to handle the mass of Faerunian political intrigues that have sprung up among the competing easterners, and to figure out a way to profit from this without being dragged into anybody's political struggles. To the west of the Payit Nation lies Kultaka, a "mountain rampart of warriors". This nation values warrior prowess above nearly all else (a bit similar to Sparta or Akanax in Chessenta), for they have been involved in many wars with the Nexalans over the years. They often hire themselves out as mercenaries, and posess a very well-disciplined fighting force. Their moutainous domain, despite being near the coast, has very few good harbours, and the Kultakans go to New Waterdeep (a trading town to the northeast) to engage in mercantile dealings with the Faerunians. I am unsure how to deal with the Nexalans. They are obviously thinly disguised Aztecs, and although they haven't been turned into orcs (they are normal humans) how should they be portrayed? A sprawling, decadent land ruled by sinister priest-kings, conducting bloody rituals to dark gods? A nation of noble warriors? Or maybe they think of themselves as visionaries, and want to unite the peoples of Maztica into one nation? The people of Huacli and Kolan- no ideas as yet, although it would be nice to have one nation be great seafarers or explorers, as they are near the sea. Aztec-types on the high seas is a far cry from the 'primitives' described in the Maztica Box Set. I had one idea of an Incan-flavoured race living high in the Southwestern mountains, worshipping a mysterious "living god" who is actually the ancient, degenarate last survivor of the Aearee race, but I have no idea on how to implement this, or if it is a good idea. The Savage Elves that menace Fort Flame on the Maztica/Anchorome border annoy me slightly. No disrespect to elves, but why are there"Native American Elves" instead of Native-American-type humans? Can't humans live in harmony with nature in the Realms, or what? (Don't hurt me, elf fans:weep:) Anyhow, perhaps there are Native American-type humans a bit further north. For these Savage Elves, though, who appear to be hostile to everything that moves and refuse to even talk to anybody, you could use the Picts of Conan's world (Hyboria) for inspiration. The "Picts" of Robert E Howard's Conan stories seemed to be more like Native Americans than real-life picts, and like the Savage Elves, they were [I]really[I] vicious. in short, the nations of Maztica should, ideally, have interactions, secret societies, and political intrigue like all the other Realms nations have, and should not be a bunch of isolated cultures that do not change or evolve. Misc. Ideas: Should Maztica be a 'lost world' like Chult is? Maybe it should have rideable beasts of burden (so Mazticans have cavalry and the wheel- and aren't scared of horses!) And the infamous Human Sacrifice? What part should that play? Should it even be in there at all? Should it be toned down from the "blood-slicked temple steps and heart-ripping death priests" stereotype? Anyhow, those are my campaign ideas for Maztica. Sorry about rambling (I tend to do that a lot) and I hope my ideas are okay. My philosophy in D&D has always been "if you don't like it, change it", and so my advice to everybody is to do as you want with Maztica. If you'd like a "New World" in the Realms, go ahead and put it in, but if you don't like it "as is" then change it, as I am doing. The same goes for all the other "add-ons". And just remember- an RPG setting doesn't have to be eurocentric to be popular. A lot of people seem to like the Nyambe- African Adventures setting, so who's to say a really well-done Mesoamerican/Native American setting wouldn't do well?
Dark Wizard 03-27-07, 10:33 PM	We all know that the Forgotten Realms is a collective effort of many of fantasy literature's best, but since we cannot start a discussion of what has happened before the "old grey box" came out (because that would be inaccurate, inadequate to this thread and time consuming), it's better and more proper to say that those seetings have always been part of Abeir-Toril since the days the first official campaign setting came out. Just because something existed in an earlier incarnation of something does not meant it should stay attached to it. To take an extreme example, slavery was a part of many societies up until a century or two ago. Just because slavery was an earlier system that existed in socieities does not mean it should remain in a society. If a society feels the institution of slavery does not positively affect it, it can decide to remove it from the society, which is what the majority of modern nations have done. On a side note, we actually could discuss the precursor, prepublication Realms to a decent extent due to all the comments and information given to us by Ed and the other designers. Hey,I 'm a Greenwood cultist too. Ed designed in the beginning a continent that resembled a traditional fantasy medieval world. Thus Faerun is exclusively Ed's work (in the beginning and regarding the gross details -at least-). But since Faerun needed to grow at some point before being officially given to TSR and the rest of the Abeir-Toril needed to be at least superficially explored, it's only natural that other writers/designers took Ed's ideas and shaped/developped them in order for the Fogotten Realms to achieve its final form. That being said I don't hink that they are badly incorporated in the Forgotten Realms'canon though.I think they are perfectly coalished in the whole picture and in relation to Fareun. Remeber that Faerun is just a small (in comparison) continent being hugged by a planet and other places that are ultimately bigger than it. My point is that the other continents, unlike regions in Faerun, never had notes from Ed to work from. Beyond that, the designers did not take into account the existing information for Faerun when developing these other settings. Or conversely in the case of Kara-Tur, the Realms had no idea TSR would add KT into Toril, so the Realms never adapted to fit KT into itself. Thus they are not well integrated. If they were well integrated, I might wager they would perform better than they have and we wouldn't be having this discussion. I have no knowledge of that setting and still I highly doubt it is so much alike Maztica. Unlike Maztica is a good thing, right? :P Perhaps you should look into the setting before making any statements. No. You are very mistaken. New world influences in Conan's age simply did not exist becuse hyboria was actually Europe, Asia and Africa combined in a single continent, before the oceans swallowed the Atlantis and that huge continent divided itself in smaller ones. The "new world" was way off in the east from Conan's world and Hyboria had nothing to do with it. In a reference to your comments about my reading and comprehension ability. Perhaps you should reread my statements and then do some more research into the topic. True, the Hyborian age focused on what would eventually become Europe, Asia and Africa, but that did not preclude Howard from drawing upon some New World aspects to overlay onto some of his fictional peoples. It's fiction after all, coming up with the Hyborian Age indeed offered him a way to write stories with the feel of historical adventures but without the weight of historical accuracy looming over his head. Or to put it more bluntly, many Picts have Algonquin/Iroquois names and a culture similar to Native Americans in many ways. Related quip: The Hyborian Age takes place after Atlantis sank. And how would you know that what Dan says is true(that very few would lkie to see , beyond fuzzy inference based on the heavily biased and tiny sample of the gaming population represented by these forums?(which by the way I don't think at all that these forums present a "heavily biased and tiny sample of the gaming population" Hinted by Wotc employees and Ralms designers? Right.Basing your opinion on facts stated three or maybe more years ago. Better than you basing your opinions on opinions. Hinted facts presented by Realms designers and WotC employees coupled with observations of publications and various forums is certainly a lot more than the latter without the support of the former like your insistence that these settings are on the verge of a revival and impending update. My opinion at least has opposing but at the minimum equivalent observations to what you have plus the statements of the designers on my side. Not to sound like a prick, but while we both might be equally right or wrong, from what solid information we do have, I'm more right than you. :P This question of yours, Dark Wizard, shows that you did not read my previous posts at all or you either did and afterwards you neglected them. I did not neglect them, but from the unnecessarily hostile tone of your post, I think I might have to. :rolleyes: Anyhow, I 'll tell you again that demand for the aforementioned Realms' settings is now higher than ever, people working on them on the net are many and well organized and the "bring 'em back" polls are running rampant everywhere. One is able to draw info from the various things he sees, the various role players he meets and the various sites he visits. To be honest you can count the number of people working on the Kara-Tur Redux thread in one hand and most of them agree Kara-Tur needs a massive overhaul from it's original form. There are a few disparate threads here and there and one petition that I can remember within the last year from the Future Products forum. The petition managed to get a bit over a hundred signatures (might be a bit more now). However, you do see that despite being in a very active portion of the WotC forums with advertising by several posters, the petition only contains a minuscule number of interested gamers, who may or may not be willing to put their money where their mouth is. You want a rough sampling, something to base opinion off of, look at that. Out of the thousands of registered posters, only a hundred odd replied, an act that took practically no time and effort. The number would drop if effort (as in money) was required. If that is even a mildly accurate sampling, the number of people willing to actually support Kara-Tur or Zakhara is dismal compared to other WotC product lines. To say nothing of the petition not even bothering with Maztica. If you are still unable to draw a conclusion and shape your opinion from these facts, then I guess you should sharpen your perception skills. I would like to point out your fallacy in believing your own perceptions are unerring. What credentials do you have that qualifies you as an expert in perception skills? It's still only one book they should try and pubblish. And you're talking about how they can't afford experiments? Pubblishing a campaign expansion book for a specific setting it's only a natural sequence if not a necessary one. If what you say was meant to have a sense, then Wotc would just have to do the same thing about Eberron:pubblish material just about Khorvaire. Which is clearly not the case as they have already put out two other sourcebooks for its other continents. Except that those Eberron continents were heavily integrated. If you think the FR continents are integrated, you haven't seen Eberron's continents. That's the difference. WotC can't affford too many experiments, but they've done them, and when they fail, they abandon the systems introduced in them. I meant FR can't afford experiments. Look at the FR adventures of the past two years, each one pushes other sourcebooks further and further from forseable publication. WotC is applying the experimentation mentality of Core to FR and praying the results work out without realizing they won't because Core and FR are at different scales and themes. Also, have you noticed that Maztica usually comes up dead last in most polls and discussions of the sub-setting most people want to see revived? After Kara-Tur and Zakhara, it seems more people actually want to know about 'Katashaka,' 'Anchorome,' and 'Osse' than Maztica. There's an observation you might have missed. From my experience I can say that some clear points out of those forum can actually be fished, and you would too if you read them with more attention. Resorting to questioning an opponent's competency without providing even semi-concrete facts to back your argument up really doesn't do much for your case. Hey, that quote wasn't even mine. Anyway your desire is quite clear and I agree that such a setting should have your mentioned characteristics. But bottomline I disagree with you again since I believe Maztica is very well conceived and has everything you ask for - and more.Besides, I already expressed myself by saying that I like elements drawn from real history meshed and coalished with fantasy flavor to be combined into a satisfying story. Maztica needs to see pubblishing light in 3.5. Just like the other Abeir-Toril continents have to. Well, I already stated a solid case for why I dislike Maztica. That it's borderline insulting as an attempted respectful representation of Meso-American culture and mythologies via an underwhelmingly fantastic sub-setting in a far more appealing, best selling fantasy setting with a vastly superior execution, even with the numerous blotches TSR/WOTC made with Faerun. I don't see how it can come close to what I want in a fantasy setting based on Meso-America, despite your adamant belief that it offers more than everything I asked for. I'm quite serious about this. I already dislike Maztica a great deal, but the more I think about it the more I get royally ticked off. Centuries if not millennia of history and the designers had to use essentially the arrival of the Conquistadors to tell a story about Meso-American cultures in a fantasy setting? That was okay for the pulp fiction era of the 20s and 30s, but the setting was designed in the late 80s and early 90s. Lacking heavier supernatural elements and independent development, Maztica is not well suited for a fantasy game along the same lines as the rest of Toril. It's not even satisfying as a pseudo-historical storytelling platform, lacking the key aspects of historical accuracy in spite of it's superficial and arbitrary resemblance to real world Meso-America. It's not like the Helmites even come close to the monolithic, patriarchal, hypocritically twisted version of a monotheistic religion that the Conquistadors believed in.
Krash 03-28-07, 12:01 AM	All of the regions outside of Faerûn proper would need a truckload of work done to them to be integrated into the general FR stream. Not impossible, but quite difficult and using resources that may not see a return. -- George Krashos
Fokinther 03-28-07, 03:14 AM	I agree with you, Krash. My Maztica ideas aren't really that great- it's still Mesoamerica, albeit thinly disguised. The add-on campaign settings would perhaps even have to be redone from the ground up. So how about instead of focusing on what we hate about them, maybe we could talk about how to redo/improve them?
Lord Karsus 03-28-07, 08:57 AM	I agree with you, Krash. My Maztica ideas aren't really that great- it's still Mesoamerica, albeit thinly disguised. The add-on campaign settings would perhaps even have to be redone from the ground up. So how about instead of focusing on what we hate about them, maybe we could talk about how to redo/improve them? -Well, to stay..."true" to the entire Maztica idea, it should be somewhat similar to/based off of Meso-America, just like everything else is somewhat similar to something else. But, that should be your starting point. In the optimum situation, the end result has a Meso-American flavor to it, but is its own unique thing.
Iakhovas 03-28-07, 09:25 AM	So how about instead of focusing on what we hate about them, maybe we could talk about how to redo/improve them?I couldn't agree more Fokinther.
Francius 03-28-07, 08:27 PM	-Hm, you must know something that I don't know, 'cause I know that I don't like Drow too much. I've called you a drow in the past after a certain episode occured.So you should have a clue about it... Or wait...was it Dark Wizard? Again, there is no such continent as al-Qadim. Let me try to make it a little more simple for you: al-Qadim = Zakhara. :rolleyes: Do you think I'm a Realms' newbie? You showed (once again) you don't comprehend what I write. See what I posted before: Just like Europe and Asia are on the same continent (eurasia) but are often regarded as being separated continents, in the same way I refer to Al-Qadim, Kar-Tur and Faerun as separated ones even if they are on the same geological landform. Did you see me putting Al-Qadim and Zakhara on the same sentence? I really suggest that you read up on your Mezo-American history, then, if you don't see any complete parallels between Maztica and Central America circa the 15th and 16th centuries. By the way, Latin America and Meso-America are synonymous, for the most part. Latin America and Meso-America are not at all synonymous to us Europeans. When I say Meso America I'm referring to the following countries:country of Mexico and nine southeastern states of Mexico: Campeche, Chiapas, Guerrero, Oaxaca, Puebla, Quintana Roo, Tabasco, Veracruz, and Yucatán. When I say Latin America I 'm referring to the following countries: Argentina ,Bolivia ,Brazil ,Chile ,Colombia ,Costa Rica ,Cuba ,Dominican Rep. ,Ecuador ,ElSalvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela. Get it? But from what I 've read from other posters you guys overseas seem to put both Central America and South America under the same name of "Latin". If it's like this you mean it and understand it, then I don't think I was wrong in what I posted earlier: These nations' (of MAZTICA) story and their geography parallels the American continents in the time of their discovery by Christopher Columbus and more exactly Mesoamerica. This culture area included some of the most complex and advanced cultures of the America, including the Olmec, Teotihuacan, the Maya, and the Aztec. Meaning that I was referring to the area including and surrounding Mexico.Mexico is in the middle of America-thus meso America.IT IS NOT IN SOUTH AMERICA,(the one we call "Latin"). Did I say that I don't see parallels between Meso America and Maztica then? We must be looking at two different things. How exactly does Maztica fit in the Realms very well? Why do defining events there unfold exactly like what happened in the actual world? Do you know the actual odds for something like that happening? Maztica fits the Realms well in its story and flavor.See BRIAN :) James Realms' history or whatever source you have concerning Realms lore. Do you find any gaps? If so then please tell me. It's Brian James, not Mike. You're right.I did mean Brian yet I wrote another name. I have both the pdfs he has made titled "A Grand History of the Realms" -the old one and the new. I am Lord Karsus, not Karsus the Mad. It's not that difficult...:rolleyes: You're lord Karsus...name taken from Karsus the Mad. Or not? -Maybe they teach you things like that in Europe, but here, in the 'States we have something called 'options'- there is more than one way to do things, and then get a result... Things like that they teach us here in Europe you say... A person has to look at other cultures, civilizations and nations to measure how far along theirs is.Not to copy them, but to compare himself with them and to learn from them.That's the way that leads to improvement. Now just what do you read in that statement that makes you disagree with it? Is it better to say that one has only to be concerned with his own society and culture (neglecting those of his neighboors) in order to advance? Go get your degree, Karsus. In order to benchmark your own society, you compare it to your own society of days gone by. That is correct. Whew... I was starting to believe you had your eyes wide shut. Bear in mind though that what you say does not exclude the fact that one can learn in addition the past and present of other societies foreign to his own one in order to draw elemnts for criticizing his current one. I echo the same sentiments concerning yourself, actually. Funny... With the only difference being that you clearly interfered in a response I was giving to another poster and with which you had nothing to do. Not that I have any problem discussing with anybody but you took my post paragraph to paragraph and answered it like it was directed personally at you. :rolleyes: -It is statistically sound to compare Soucebook sales, and then Messageboard membership, and then say that the majority of people who own the PHB (Assuming they play D&D) are not registered here. I see. Then you're actually saying that you possess exact stats about Sourcebook sales, the number of people with a board account and from these elements you're in position to say that the majority of people who own the PHB (Assuming they play D&D) are not registered here. :rolleyes: It doesn't make any sense to me. Eitherway I told you that from what I know the majority of people who play D&D do have access to the Wotc forums. What was that answer of yours for? -No, the majority of the populace does not. That is why the entire Maztica line was dropped. Do you think TSR/WotC would drop something that was selling like a hot potato? I do not believe that the Maztica setting was dropped for that reason. In fact I don't believe that it was dropped at all. During the 2nd edition days,Maztica sold quite well and that is why they went on and pubblished quite some material for it.They wouldn't have done so if back in the day the setting did not sell well. The story then somehow changed because Faerun with its immense detail, history, geography, novelization and size overshadowed the whole rest of Abeir-Toril and since its sales alone were what continued to carry on the Realms, the rest of the material for the planet was "abbandoned" albeit much material ahd already been pubblished. My take here is that Wotc saw that this major interest of FR buyers and fans concerned solely Faerun and so they focused their pubblishing line exclusively for it for the first 6 years of the Realms in the 3.5 era. People are however demanding for those settings again.I don't thinkl we 'll have longer till we see them being printed again.(or perhaps anew). -I'm not even going to respond to a flame like that...:rolleyes: Dude, your name is Karsus. You 're supposed to like flames...(and lightning bolts too for that reason). -Again, read what he said. I'll wait for an apology concerning that one (although, I don't expect to get one). Dan told me that he finds the Maztica setting interesting yet he doesn't like to see it printed in 3.5 because it's not thematically topical.(which by the way "not thematically topical" means in short "out of place"). Dan then adds:I think that quantum mechanics is incredibly interesting, but I don't want a sourcebook dedicated to it in Faerun. Dude, in the first line we're talking about two continents and how they realate to each other.Dan thinks they are not coaleshing well while I think the contrary. It is clear that he threw in the "quantum physics being printed in Fareun" argument to show two things that do not match, but I still think that his example was a bad one and out of place when wanting to compare continent to continent and how they mesh with each other. Am I the only one who sees it this way, or is that all Americans (since the Europeans here are very few) don't want to take the side of a European guy?
Francius 03-28-07, 08:32 PM	The two lines I put into bold kind of contradict each other. It's nothing like it, but it parallels it.:confused: Don't get me wrong, I love Mazitca. I believe it has a great potential. (I'll take the correction of Mesoamerica, I personally hate that word for no good reason.) In the past, I've tried to update the rules from the boxed set to 3 ed rules, and post them on the boards here. I am a fan of this sub-setting, despite the shortcoming in the way it was originally presented. If you want to see even more parallels, read the history of Cortez and re-read Cordel's story. (both men even burned their boats to keep their men there). Whew...there's no ending to the guys who answer me. Nice.:D I 'd like to pinpoint you that when I talk about Latin America and then MesoAmerica I mean two neatly different things: Latin America and Meso-America are not at all synonymous to us Europeans. When I say Meso America I'm referring to the following countries:country of Mexico and nine southeastern states of Mexico: Campeche, Chiapas, Guerrero, Oaxaca, Puebla, Quintana Roo, Tabasco, Veracruz, and Yucatán. When I say Latin America I 'm referring to the following countries: Argentina ,Bolivia ,Brazil ,Chile ,Colombia ,Costa Rica ,Cuba ,Dominican Rep. ,Ecuador ,ElSalvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela. Get it? But from what I 've read from other posters you guys overseas seem to put both Central America and South America under the same name of "Latin". If it's like this you mean it and understand it, then I don't think I was wrong in what I posted earlier: These nations' (of MAZTICA) story and their geography parallels the American continents in the time of their discovery by Christopher Columbus and more exactly Mesoamerica. This culture area included some of the most complex and advanced cultures of the America, including the Olmec, Teotihuacan, the Maya, and the Aztec. Meaning that I was referring to the area including and surrounding Mexico.Mexico is in the middle of America-thus meso America.IT IS NOT IN SOUTH AMERICA,(the one we call "Latin"). That's why you misunderstood my post. Did I say that I don't see parallels between Meso America and Maztica then?
Stigger 03-28-07, 08:46 PM	Interesting... Latin America/Central America usually refers to what you're calling Mesoamerica, while South America refers to what you're calling Latin America, at least as far as the US educational system was concerned when I passed through it, with Mexico being counted as either North America or Central America, depending on who you asked. Central America either starts at the US/Mexico border or at the Mexican southern border and continues on to the Panama Canal region, where South America starts, in the most basic of terms. As to the whole Al-Qadim/Zakhara issue, you used the proper continental terms for Kara-Tur and Faerun there, so the Al-Qadim name was completely out of place given that the proper name is Zakhara. It's a misunderstanding, nothing to get worked up over. As to Lord Karsus vs Karsus the Mad, Lord Karsus is a poster here, and Karsus the Mad is another poster here... simply another misunderstanding. Not gonna get involved with this any more than that.
Alac Luin 03-28-07, 09:13 PM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America Latin America refers to almost everything south of the US/ Mexico Border. Since South America is a continent to itself, it is found to be more specific to be speaking of the geographic area to just call it South America, as not all countries in south America are considered "Latin America." But many of us are not that uptight about semantics (at least I'm not usually). As it seems, most people posting in this thread are of the understanding that the context of the term “Latin America” does include the geographic location that the Maztica sub-setting encompasses. EDIT: on a side note, according to the Wiki I posted above, parts of Canada should be considered "Latin America":P
Loestalx 03-28-07, 09:18 PM	Jeez.....you guys are actually becoming more boring than Maztica itself. Who cares what where is called from what country, doesn't matter because the fact is is that Maztica is clearly a retelling of that general area of the world's history.
Dark Wizard 03-28-07, 09:27 PM	So how about instead of focusing on what we hate about them, maybe we could talk about how to redo/improve them? Agreed. However, I believe that an honest and factual assessment of the situation could only help in such an endeavor. One can only solve a problem when one sees the problem to be solved. Saying that, I will leave Maztica to those who feel more comfortable with the setting. I will keep myself busy working on my own overhaul of Kara-Tur.
Francius 03-28-07, 09:49 PM	Just because something existed in an earlier incarnation of something does not meant it should stay attached to it. To take an extreme example, slavery was a part of many societies up until a century or two ago. Just because slavery was an earlier system that existed in socieities does not mean it should remain in a society. If a society feels the institution of slavery does not positively affect it, it can decide to remove it from the society, which is what the majority of modern nations have done. :rofl: Wow. Quite nice examples you guys can put up. The Dan guy with Quantum Physics printed in Faerun and the Dark Wiz with not necessarily continuing to pubblish a book since slavery was also abolished... I know they are just examples but...don't you think that they 're a tad bit out of place? Just a tiny tad bit? :rofl: On a side note, we actually could discuss the precursor, prepublication Realms to a decent extent due to all the comments and information given to us by Ed and the other designers. If you have the time and patience to do so,then by all means be my guest, as for me I just like to consider Abeir-Toril's initial form as the definitive one since the 1st edition CS came out. Albeit I 'm interested to read more info from Ed if you happen to possess. My point is that the other continents, unlike regions in Faerun, never had notes from Ed to work from. Beyond that, the designers did not take into account the existing information for Faerun when developing these other settings. Or conversely in the case of Kara-Tur, the Realms had no idea TSR would add KT into Toril, so the Realms never adapted to fit KT into itself. No. You just can't say that the Realms never adapted to those "other than Fareun'' settings. Because,you see, Faerun is not the Realms. Faerun is part of them. Ed developped the story of a single continent of Abeir-Toril, one named Faerun. The other contintnents were designed by other fantasy writers/designers. You comment on a thing that I've already answered to. Faerun needed to grow at some point before being officially given to TSR and the rest of the Abeir-Toril needed to be at least superficially explored, it's only natural that other writers/designers took Ed's ideas and shaped/developped them in order for the Forgotten Realms to achieve its final form. It's only natural that they don't mesh with Fareun. They don't have to.They didn't need to.They shouldn't. Just like Europe never meshed with America till 1492. Each continent of Abeir-Toril has its own lore and culture.Each is unique and special. The only thing that Abeir-Toril and its other continents have in common is coexistence. That is how it is supposed (correctly) to be. Unlike Maztica is a good thing, right? :P No. You got it wrong. Maztica is the best. Didn't I say that million times? Perhaps you should look into the setting before making any statements. I don't have time and I 'more than satisfied with Maztica and the Realms in general, thank you. If I was to read and learn about all the other fantasy settings out there then I would really need to get a life. I have a job to attend to, besides. I 'm happy since I know that the Forgotten Realms is the biggest and more detailed fantasy world there is so I 'll keep exploring mostly it. True, the Hyborian age focused on what would eventually become Europe, Asia and Africa, but that did not preclude Howard from drawing upon some New World aspects to overlay onto some of his fictional peoples. It's fiction after all, coming up with the Hyborian Age indeed offered him a way to write stories with the feel of historical adventures but without the weight of historical accuracy looming over his head. NO. NO. NO. No new world resemblances in Hyboria for you pal. Just nope. Or to put it more bluntly, many Picts have Algonquin/Iroquois names and a culture similar to Native Americans in many ways. Picts??? What in the world do Picts (a confederation of tribes in what later was to become central and northern Scotland from Roman times until the 10th century) have to do with Hyboria? Picts are from the real world, they did not exist in Hyboria.You cannot mention them and then say that since they looked like native americans then even Hyboria can have clans similar to them. Are you sure we're comunicating here, Wiz? Related quip: The Hyborian Age takes place after Atlantis sank. Yes, it's a post-Atlantean setting. My bad, it was an error from speedy typing. Better than you basing your opinions on opinions. Hinted facts presented by Realms designers and WotC employees coupled with observations of publications and various forums is certainly a lot more than the latter without the support of the former like your insistence that these settings are on the verge of a revival and impending update. I'm basing my opinions on facts I read and search about all over the net.I told you I do not think that what the designers wrote three years ago should be taken as a mantra for the future to which I also added that I've seen numerous request polls for them on the net. My conclusion to all this is that the aforeemerntioned FRealms settings are on the peak of getting pubblished again in 3.5. What else can I tell you to make you believe me? Not to sound like a prick, but while we both might be equally right or wrong, from what solid information we do have, I'm more right than you. :P :rolleyes: :) I did not neglect them, but from the unnecessarily hostile tone of your post, I think I might have to. :rolleyes: Oh. If retribution should then be a reason to neglect a thing, I think you're somehow a superficial person. :P To be honest you can count the number of people working on the Kara-Tur Redux thread in one hand But that's just one of the Kara-Tur threads all over the net. Many more do exist. ...and most of them agree Kara-Tur needs a massive overhaul from it's original form. I agree too although to some extent, not as a whole. There are a few disparate threads here and there and one petition that I can remember within the last year from the Future Products forum. That's just in the Wotc forums. Go search the rest of the net. The petition managed to get a bit over a hundred signatures (might be a bit more now). Which is quite high since the specific forums for the campaign settings (FR and Eb) are not highly populated like the generic D&D ones are. However, you do see that despite being in a very active portion of the WotC forums with advertising by several posters, the petition only contains a minuscule number of interested gamers, Again,the specific forums for the campaign settings (FR and Eb) are not highly populated like the generic D&D ones are. Even a hundred posters saying that they would like to see them again in 3.5 ARE MORE THAN ENOUGH HERE. If that is even a mildly accurate sampling, the number of people willing to actually support Kara-Tur or Zakhara is dismal compared to other WotC product lines. To say nothing of the petition not even bothering with Maztica. Actually, the folks who would be interested in buying Maztica, Zakhara, the Hordelands and Kara-Tur settings are the same exact ones who buy material about Faerun: Forgotten Realms players. Not just anybody. You cannot compare the number of people willing to actually invest in Kara-Tur or Zakhara to other WotC product lines' buyers and say that their number is dismal. Just like you would not go and buy the Sarlona book if previously you had never heard about the Eberron world or its campaign setting. The other continents of Abeir-Toril are meant for expanding the Forgotten Realms world. It's a mistake to think of them as 'separated settings" like you seem to believe. I would like to point out your fallacy in believing your own perceptions are unerring. I never quoted that. Let alone presuming it. What credentials do you have that qualifies you as an expert in perception skills? I never implied that. I just told you that you need to sharpen your perception skills since you seem to be unable to understand that I draw info from the various thing I see, the various role players I meet and the various sites I visits and take thses things for what they are:facts and not opinions made out of thin air. Don't get offended so easily and say things about me I never mentioned. Except that those Eberron continents were heavily integrated. If you think the FR continents are integrated, you haven't seen Eberron's continents. That's the difference. I still believe that Abeir-Toril's continents are nicely integrated in the Forgotten Realms picture (which by the way are not only Faerun - but I've already toold you that) and that Wotc should follow the same policy it does with Eberron: Pubblish sourcebooks for Abeir-Toril's other continents that comprise the world. WotC can't affford too many experiments, but they've done them, and when they fail, they abandon the systems introduced in them. Maztica, Zachara, Kare-Tur and the Hordelands were not a failed experiment in the 2nd edition era as I expressed myself before. They just have not been given a chance in 3.5. Resorting to questioning an opponent's competency without providing even semi-concrete facts to back your argument up really doesn't do much for your case. If you can't comprehend what I like then it's clearly not my problem. Please tell me what you would like to see written to consider it a concrete fact.I already addreseed your points and questions with what I know. Well, I already stated a solid case for why I dislike Maztica. That it's borderline insulting as an attempted respectful representation of Meso-American culture and mythologies via an underwhelmingly fantastic sub-setting in a far more appealing, best selling fantasy setting with a vastly superior execution, even with the numerous blotches TSR/WOTC made with Faerun. I don't see how it can come close to what I want in a fantasy setting based on Meso-America, despite your adamant belief that it offers more than everything I asked for.Centuries if not millennia of history and the designers had to use essentially the arrival of the Conquistadors to tell a story about Meso-American cultures in a fantasy setting? That was okay for the pulp fiction era of the 20s and 30s, but the setting was designed in the late 80s and early 90s. Lacking heavier supernatural elements and independent development, Maztica is not well suited for a fantasy game along the same lines as the rest of Toril. It's not even satisfying as a pseudo-historical storytelling platform, lacking the key aspects of historical accuracy in spite of it's superficial and arbitrary resemblance to real world Meso-America. It's not like the Helmites even come close to the monolithic, patriarchal, hypocritically twisted version of a monotheistic religion that the Conquistadors believed in. Okay. You just voiced your own opinion about the Maztica setting. Here's mine: I think the Maztica setting is an excellent and interesting one.It's a setting whose genre needed to be present on a fictional world.That it has a place in the Realms, just goes to show how Abeir-Toril does an impressive work in incorporating real world cultures and stories in a yet unique and unparalleled fantasy mirror. Yet again. Ok?
Francius 03-28-07, 10:00 PM	Interesting... Latin America/Central America usually refers to what you're calling Mesoamerica, while South America refers to what you're calling Latin America, at least as far as the US educational system was concerned when I passed through it, with Mexico being counted as either North America or Central America, depending on who you asked. Central America either starts at the US/Mexico border or at the Mexican southern border and continues on to the Panama Canal region, where South America starts, in the most basic of terms. I this can be of more help to you,here: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica) As to the whole Al-Qadim/Zakhara issue, you used the proper continental terms for Kara-Tur and Faerun there, so the Al-Qadim name was completely out of place given that the proper name is Zakhara. It's a misunderstanding, nothing to get worked up over. Ok, but I still did not mention in the same sentence both Al-Qadim AND Zakhara. As to Lord Karsus vs Karsus the Mad, Lord Karsus is a poster here, and Karsus the Mad is another poster here... simply another misunderstanding. I know, I was just joking with him because his name is clearly taken from Karsus the mad.(not the poster, but the FR character wizard) Not gonna get involved with this any more than that. Many thanks, seems like the whole forum is responding at me in place of others to whom I talk and without I even have the chance to respond to them all. You should wait for your turn next time so we can clarify things better when coresponding. Is that clear?
Francius 03-28-07, 10:03 PM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America Latin America refers to almost everything south of the US/ Mexico Border. Since South America is a continent to itself, it is found to be more specific to be speaking of the geographic area to just call it South America, as not all countries in south America are considered "Latin America." But many of us are not that uptight about semantics (at least I'm not usually). As it seems, most people posting in this thread are of the understanding that the context of the term “Latin America” does include the geographic location that the Maztica sub-setting encompasses. EDIT: on a side note, according to the Wiki I posted above, parts of Canada should be considered "Latin America":P And here's what MesoAmerica refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica
Alac Luin 03-28-07, 10:05 PM	So, latin america is a term that covers meso america. or, mesoamerica is a part of latin america. <EDITed in Can we get past this?
Francius 03-28-07, 10:10 PM	So, latin america is a term that covers meso america. or, mesoamerica is a part of latin america. Can we get past this? Something like that. The fact that the two (MesoAmerica and Latin America) are nonetheless different geographical places despite their union, is also true.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-28-07, 10:26 PM	Many thanks dude, seems like the whole forum is responding at me in place of others to whom I talk and without I even have the chance to respond to them all. Can someone help me up? These things happen on a message board. DB
Francius 03-28-07, 10:54 PM	These things happen on a message board. DB Hey Dexter. I know these things happen on a message board but it seems like our fellow Americans got schooled about their own geography and sequentially got mad. How about you answer some of the questions directed at me instead of me? That's what Karsus, Dark Wizard, Alac Luin and Stigger did in the place of Gothic Dan so I found myself on a position answering temporarily at 5 (five) posters... :allalone:
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-28-07, 10:57 PM	I can't because I disagree with you. You wouldn't have expected anything else, would you? ;) DB
Francius 03-28-07, 11:03 PM	I can't because I disagree with you. You disagree with what in this specific issue? Ok, we did not agree on Drizz't but what about Maztica? You wouldn't have expected anything else, would you? ;) Since you're so biased in disagreeing with me just for the sake of it even if you do happen to agree with me, then no - I wouldn't expect anything else from a person with your brain. ;)
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-28-07, 11:10 PM	Huh... the simple fact that I happen to disagree with you is evidence enough for you to come to the conclusion that I disagree with you on general principle? You live and learn. Regarding the personal insult: Your posts just wouldn't be the same without the condescending tone and the verbal slander. Keep up the good work. DB
Francius 03-28-07, 11:16 PM	Huh... the simple fact that I happen to disagree with you is evidence enough for you to come to the conclusion that I disagree with you on general principle? You live and learn. Hmm..the fact that you tend to do it on a regular basis isn't enough alone to point that you're doing it on purpose? How can it be that you don't agree with anything I say? Not a single phrase? Heck, even with the other guys we found a common point on some things. I like many things in the Realms that happen to be some of the most well-designed and popular elements the setting has to offer, yet when I say my opinion about them you come here and say that those things are of penny value. This has happened before and you sure seem to remember it. Are you a FR fan at all or just... Whatever. Regarding the personal insult: Your posts just wouldn't be the same without the condescending tone and the verbal slander. Keep up the good work. No insult meant. That was a joke. I 'm sorry you failed to grasp it and to give me a helping hand.
Alac Luin 03-28-07, 11:31 PM	I know these things happen on a message board but it seems like our fellow Americans got schooled about their own geography and sequentially got mad.: I was gonna let it drop, but this is hardly what happened. If you look at the Wiki link I provided, you can clearly see that MesoAmerica is part of Latin America, hardly a different area as you so claim. It seems to be of common usage here that the term "Latin America" does indeed include Mexico and neighbors. Need more proof? Visit the Latin American Network Information Center's page on Mexico http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/Mexico/ The Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/interactives/latinpolitics/index.html or how about Encyclopedia Britannica? http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9369798 Latin America is an accepted term when speaking of Mexico.
Francius 03-28-07, 11:45 PM	If you look at the Wiki link I provided, you can clearly see that MesoAmerica is part of Latin America, hardly a different area as you so claim. And if you look at the Wiki link I provided, you will see that MesoAmerica is just Mexico and its gulf.It does not incorporate the south Latin states of America even you seem to put it that way and say that Latin and Meso are the same things. It seems to be of common usage here that the term "Latin America" does indeed include Mexico and neighbors. Specify the location you mean by ''here". And if I understand correctly that by "here" you mean the US, then it truly is of common usage putting on the same dish MesoAmerica and Latin America only "there". or how about Encyclopedia Britannica? http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9369798 You provided me with a link you did not even read. The article actually confirms what I say about Central/Meso America. Read it. (http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9360160) By the way, you did know that "Meso" is a word meaning "Central" didn't you? Latin America is an accepted term when speaking of Mexico. So is MesoAmerica when speaking of Mexico. But you can't say (like all of you did when I posted it) that MesoAmerica and Latin America are the same things since Meso America DOES NOT INCORPORATE the countries of Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba , Dominican Rep., Ecuador ,ElSalvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay and Venezuela that form exclusively the Latin America.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-28-07, 11:53 PM	Hmm..the fact that you tend to do it on a regular basis isn't enough alone to point that you're doing it on purpose? Two occasions, this is the third. People with vastly different points of view are bound to disagree. (By the way, your habit of implying or even outright stating that those who disagree with you are dimwits doesn't help.) How can it be that you don't agree with anything I say? The subject seems to be Maztica, and because I have a strong dislike for copy-and-paste in any setting, I have a strong dislike for Kara-Tur, Mulhorand, Zakhara and Maztica. Furthermore I don't believe that Maztica is very popular - although there are quite a few Kara-Tur fans I know (nowhere near enough to make a difference, but still), I don't know a single person, neither in the real world nor on these or other D&D boards, who want Maztica to return. I guess there must be some, though. I don't agree that TSR put out Maztica material because it did so well (as far as I know, the opposite was the case which contributed to TSR's bankruptcy - they churned out everything they could think of to make the money they didn't have but needed so badly, not taking into account that thanks to this the customer base was already very fractured and didn't have more money to spend on the hobby), and I remember numerous WotC statements why the sub-settings won't return in the foreseeable future. Even if we were to assume that there was a considerable Maztica fanbase - and this is highly hypothetical -, the lack of coverage of many Faerûnian regions forbids publishing of material that deals with obscure places that fans who started with 3e know nothing about to begin with. So we don't have any common ground here. I like many things in the Realms that happen to be some of the most well-designed and popular elements the setting has to offer, yet when I say my opinion about them you come here and say that those things are of penny value. I don't have a problem with people who like things I don't like. It gets problematic when you defend your preferences on the grounds that they are objectively great and those who don't think so therefore dimwitted. That's what makes discussions with you difficult. No insult meant. That was a joke. This kind of joke is best saved for people you know very well and who for this reason are unlikely to take offense at it. DB
Alac Luin 03-29-07, 12:06 AM	Specifically by "here" I meant this specific thread. Everybody else has no issue understanding that the term "Latin America" includes Central America. But, all this stems from somebody saying something to the effect "the Maztican setting is to similar to our real life Latin America" Where in you start tearing into them. If I said something like "The way people talk French in Europe." and someone started claiming "people don't speak French in Europe" Although my original statement was not specific, most people with half a brain would realize I was most likely speaking of people in France. It is completely asinine for anyone to claim that no one in Europe speaks French and then claim France is not part of Europe. It would also be nice if you stated that the link you infer is the one I provided is really a different link, I read my link, and then I read yours. Yep, two different articles. All this proves is Central America is part of Latin America.
Dark Wizard 03-29-07, 12:14 AM	Quite nice examples you guys can put up. The Dan guy with Quantum Physics printed in Faerun and the Dark Wiz with not necessarily continuing to pubblish a book since slavery was also abolished... I know they are just examples but...don't you think that they 're a tad bit out of place? I did say it was an extreme example. Still it highlights my point, since it seem you need to "sharpen your perceptive skills" when it comes to analogies. You take these statements too literally. If you have the time and patience to do so,then by all means be my guest, as for me I just like to consider Abeir-Toril's initial form as the definitive one since the 1st edition CS came out. Albeit I 'm interested to read more info from Ed if you happen to possess. Well, since you won't acknowledge this line of discussion, there's not point in going there. Ed's responses to such topics are well cataloged on Candlekeep. Faerun needed to grow at some point before being officially given to TSR and the rest of the Abeir-Toril needed to be at least superficially explored, it's only natural that other writers/designers took Ed's ideas and shaped/developped them in order for the Forgotten Realms to achieve its final form. It's only natural that they don't mesh with Fareun. They don't have to.They didn't need to.They shouldn't. Your two statements don't match. How can writers take inspiration from Ed to form a complete Toril, yet then you say the other continents don't and shouldn't mesh with Faerun. To say nothing of the lack of notes from Ed about the other non-Faerunian continents, so I'm not sure what notes you speak of. Just like Europe never meshed with America till 1492. Doesn't excuse Kara-Tur and Zakhara. Or about the vast differences in the design philosophy used for Faerun versus that of Maztica rather than discussing the in game interaction. Each continent of Abeir-Toril has its own lore and culture.Each is unique and special. If by unique and special lore and culture you mean take real history and change a few names around, then yeah... You do realize that Faerun tries very hard to only vaguely resemble Europe while the rest of Toril ARE their Earth counterparts with the names and dates mixed up. The only thing that Abeir-Toril and its other continents have in common is coexistence. That is how it is supposed (correctly) to be. Funny, I thought for sure most of humanity over the majority of human history existed on three very well connected continents. If you mean coexistence in that sense, then why don't we see the same interactions on Toril? I don't have time and I 'more than satisfied with Maztica and the Realms in general, thank you. If I was to read and learn about all the other fantasy settings out there then I would really need to get a life. I have a job to attend to, besides. I 'm happy since I know that the Forgotten Realms is the biggest and more detailed fantasy world there is so I 'll keep exploring mostly it. Suit yourself. Perhaps that is why your viewpoints come off as narrow to me. Picts??? What in the world do Picts (a confederation of tribes in what later was to become central and northern Scotland from Roman times until the 10th century) have to do with Hyboria? Picts are from the real world, they did not exist in Hyboria.You cannot mention them and then say that since they looked like native americans then even Hyboria can have clans similar to them. Are you sure we're comunicating here, Wiz? I'm communicate well enough. You need to actually bothered looking things up outside of FR. I meant Hyborian Picts, who only vaguely resemble real world Picts. Go read up on the Hyborian ones here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyboria For ease of reference I quote from Wikipedia -- "Pictish Wilderness: Pictish Scotland, with an overlay of North America during the European colonization of the Americas, possibly even colonial-era New York. Howard bestows Algonquian languages names on his Picts. Note that the name "Pict" comes from the Latin language term for "painted one," which could be applicable to a number of the Indigenous peoples of the Americas. The historical termed Picts were a confederation of tribes in central and northern Scotland which bordered Roman Britain." The Iroquois theme of the Hyborian Picts is confirmed in the Conan d20 RPG book, as well as the letters and notes Howard left where these ideas were discussed no doubt. I'm basing my opinions on facts I read and search about all over the net.I told you I do not think that what the designers wrote three years ago should be taken as a mantra for the future to which I also added that I've seen numerous request polls for them on the net. My conclusion to all this is that the aforeemerntioned FRealms settings are on the peak of getting pubblished again in 3.5. I keep asking (as recently as this year) and the designers keep responding with the same "those are left for Dragon magazine" responses they said years ago. My observations reveal the opposite of what you claim. That while there is some interest in these settings, it's not enough to get Wizards to consider an in-depth product on them. What else can I tell you to make you believe me? Cited sources, credibility in your other statements, non-biased observations, actual attempts at research. You know the stuff that makes that silly thing called science go round. If retribution should then be a reason to neglect a thing, I think you're somehow a superficial person. Nothing vengeful about it. I just find it useless to carry on a meaningful conversation with someone who gets negatively defensive against scrutiny. You started evading points I made with unrelated comments about my competency. But that's just one of the Kara-Tur threads all over the net. Many more do exist. That's just in the Wotc forums. Go search the rest of the net. Many of these sites contain the same people posting on different forums, all who still agree these settings don't hold up, aren't popular because they're boring, or other generally less than positive things about them. Many of which are biased. Take a look at the Paizo forums. They did a poll on favorite campaign setting. Greyhawk beat FR, Dark Sun and Mystara beat Eberron. For other forums it can be different. Ask people on the Eberron boards if they like Eberron or FR better and you will get a biased result, same goes for the FR boards. It all depends on what sorts of gamers and audience visits a certain forum. Again,the specific forums for the campaign settings (FR and Eb) are not highly populated like the generic D&D ones are. Even a hundred posters saying that they would like to see them again in 3.5 ARE MORE THAN ENOUGH HERE. The Kara-Tur/Zakhara revival poll was on the Future Releases thread of the main D&D forums, one of the heavier traffic portions. The petition manager also started a thread in the FR forums. Yet despite that, the poll only managed a small number of signatories. Bring that to WotC and they will just chuckle. They know the biased audience of these forums. These forums are one of many survey tools they use for product research. Included amongst the others are other online surveys, marketing research groups, actual sales, and the survey cards found in the back of their books. The forums are probably the smallest and least accurate of their methods. Everyone who buys a book doesn't go to these forums, but everyone who buys a book contributes to sales and at least sees the survey card in the book. Actually, the folks who would be interested in buying Maztica, Zakhara, the Hordelands and Kara-Tur settings are the same exact ones who buy material about Faerun: Forgotten Realms players. Not just anybody. Those are the exact words WotC doesn't like to hear. They want books to sell to the widest consumer base possible. You cannot compare the number of people willing to actually invest in Kara-Tur or Zakhara to other WotC product lines' buyers and say that their number is dismal. WotC does that actually. Just like you would not go and buy the Sarlona book if previously you had never heard about the Eberron world or its campaign setting. Actually, Sarlona is the only Eberron book I own (I've read the other Eberron books borrowed from friends). I purchased it not because it's an Eberron book but because of the psionics, otherworldly history, and mild Asian influences they marketed it with. The other continents of Abeir-Toril are meant for expanding the Forgotten Realms world. It's a mistake to think of them as 'separated settings" like you seem to believe. I've argued for and against that point if you've seen my other discussions on this topic. I believe a clever compromise is the base solution for this dilemma. However, at the very least, Kara-Tur and Zakhara/Al-Qadim were more or less separate settings. Kara-Tur was the setting for the original OA (before they published FR as an official D&D world). Zakhara, while noted as part of Toril from the start, had it's own setting label for most (or even all) of its publication history, the FR logo did not appear on Al-Qadim books. So it's not really such a mistake since TSR was unsure of their status. I just told you that you need to sharpen your perception skills since you seem to be unable to understand that I draw info from the various thing I see, the various role players I meet and the various sites I visits and take thses things for what they are:facts and not opinions made out of thin air. Don't get offended so easily and say things about me I never mentioned. Who said I was offended? I was just curious to know since your methods seem blatantly biased and unscientific, going against all the basic things I learned in statistics, research methods, psychology perception, problem solving hierarchies from one particularly off track behavior class, and the little exposure I had to social network theory in cultural evolution. I'm basically saying I do the same things you do for observation and see the opposite result. I also have the designer statements to back up my observations, so my observations are their observations. While far from scientific, my observations were at least independently verified. Stop claiming your observations are more concrete than they are when they don't even hold up to the faintest of methodical scrutiny. Maztica, Zachara, Kare-Tur and the Hordelands were not a failed experiment in the 2nd edition era as I expressed myself before. They just have not been given a chance in 3.5. If they were not failed experiments why don't we see these lines continue in the later 2e days. If they were successful, why aren't they given a chance in 3.5e? compare the number of products these sub-settings received in 2e to Faerun and the other settings. The only one that comes close is Zakhara (lots of setting lore) followed by Kara-Tur (lots of adventures). Maztica was the most dismal one of them all with the shortest product line. Okay. You just voiced your own opinion about the Maztica setting. Here's mine: I think the Maztica setting is an excellent and interesting one.It's a setting whose genre needed to be present on a fictional world.That it has a place in the Realms, just goes to show how Abeir-Toril does an impressive work in incorporating real world cultures and stories in a yet unique and unparalleled fantasy mirror. Yet again. Which says little about the setting other than it should be represented in current western fantasy literature (which I agree, there is a place for a Mesoamerican inspired setting). Your statement's main point appears to says little about the quality of the setting, only concerned with whether or not the setting is present. It's like you're satisfied with digging through garbage for rotten scraps when you could have a gourmet feast. Sure both sustain you, but at what loss of dignity? Where is the magnificent campaign setting inspired by the thousands of years of Mesoamerican culture that does not rely on the storytelling crutch of throwing in blatant and forced analogs to Western imperialist conquerors bringing with them gold, glory and god? Maztica doesn't even have god with the capital G.
lightcwu 03-29-07, 04:48 AM	Hey, long time no post...Um as far as Kar-Tur is concerned why not just use Oriental Adventures? I mean it's not perfect by any means but seriously as big of a failure as that book was do you expect WotC to put out anything similar. You need to remember that WotC is a business they do what will make them money. If they thought there was a market for the other lands of the Realms they would publish it. As someone who is new to the Realms by comparison to some (Having only gotten into it just over a year ago) I would love to see more about the other continents but I also know it's never going to happen. Eberron is WotC's new brain child they love her and she is treating them well, that is why there is such a strong focus on publishing anything and everything they can about her, she's new. FR has been around for a LONG time and really isn't very open and accessible to new players. I had to spend a lot of time and effort to get the point where I could sign on to these boards without seeing something new, that I had no clue existed, everyday. WotC will continue to give the Realms a couple of new books a year an adventure or two, I'm really looking foreword to grabbing the Cormyr one, but Eberron is what's selling and they can't afford to gamble on a book, or set of books, for the Realms that a large group of people don't even care about.
Stigger 03-29-07, 07:46 AM	Sadly, and unfortunately, probably very true there lightcwu...
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 09:45 AM	I've called you a drow in the past after a certain episode occured.So you should have a clue about it... Or wait...was it Dark Wizard? -Must've been him, because I don't remember that. :rolleyes: Do you think I'm a Realms' newbie? You showed (once again) you don't comprehend what I write. See what I posted before: Just like Europe and Asia are on the same continent (eurasia) but are often regarded as being separated continents, in the same way I refer to Al-Qadim, Kar-Tur and Faerun as separated ones even if they are on the same geological landform. Did you see me putting Al-Qadim and Zakhara on the same sentence? -Usually the only people who are unsecure about being called "newbie" have reason to be insecure. -But, never mind. Now, for the third time, there is no such place as al-Qadim. I thought I explained it before, but I'll repeat myself as many times as I need to. There is no such thing as al-Qadim on Abeir-Toril. Just like there isn't a place called the Forgotten Realms on Toril. al-Qadim is just the setting name for Zakhara. Thus, you should be referring to Faerûn, Kara-Tur and Zakhara as seperated, even though they are on the same landmass. Get it now? I'll keep on explaining if you need me to. Latin America and Meso-America are not at all synonymous to us Europeans. -Well, it is a cultural thing, especially when someone from Latin America (Alediran) agreed with that was being asserted. When I say Meso America I'm referring to the following countries:country of Mexico and nine southeastern states of Mexico: Campeche, Chiapas, Guerrero, Oaxaca, Puebla, Quintana Roo, Tabasco, Veracruz, and Yucatán. -That's Mexico. When I say Latin America I 'm referring to the following countries: Argentina ,Bolivia ,Brazil ,Chile ,Colombia ,Costa Rica ,Cuba ,Dominican Rep. ,Ecuador ,ElSalvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela. -That's mostly South America. Meaning that I was referring to the area including and surrounding Mexico.Mexico is in the middle of America-thus meso America.IT IS NOT IN SOUTH AMERICA,(the one we call "Latin"). -Technically, Mexico is in "Central America", on the continent of North America. Do you find any gaps? If so then please tell me. -There are plenty of gaps. The most glaring is: Why does the continent of Maztica so blatently mirror the actual world? Why do the peoples of Maztica so blatently mirror the actual world? Continue ad nauseum. You're lord Karsus...name taken from Karsus the Mad. Or not? -Or not. KtM took my name Is it better to say that one has only to be concerned with his own society and culture (neglecting those of his neighboors) in order to advance? Go get your degree, Karsus. -Obviously, yes. You don't get anywhere worrying about your neighbors. And, I'll just let that other comment slide... With the only difference being that you clearly interfered in a response I was giving to another poster and with which you had nothing to do. Not that I have any problem discussing with anybody but you took my post paragraph to paragraph and answered it like it was directed personally at you. :rolleyes: -And the problem with that is...? I see. Then you're actually saying that you possess exact stats about Sourcebook sales, the number of people with a board account and from these elements you're in position to say that the majority of people who own the PHB (Assuming they play D&D) are not registered here. :rolleyes: It doesn't make any sense to me. -Well, I suggest you sit and think about it then. If you cannot grasp the concept that, even though I do not have hard data in front of my, I can infer that there are more people out there who play D&D, but do not contribute to the messageboards, then I don't know what to tell you. Eitherway I told you that from what I know the majority of people who play D&D do have access to the Wotc forums. What was that answer of yours for? -That the majority of D&D players globally do not contribute to the WotC Messageboards. I do not believe that the Maztica setting was dropped for that reason. In fact I don't believe that it was dropped at all. -Really? Why are we having a conversation regarding "bringing back Maztica", then? During the 2nd edition days,Maztica sold quite well and that is why they went on and pubblished quite some material for it.They wouldn't have done so if back in the day the setting did not sell well. The story then somehow changed because Faerun with its immense detail, history, geography, novelization and size overshadowed the whole rest of Abeir-Toril and since its sales alone were what continued to carry on the Realms, the rest of the material for the planet was "abbandoned" albeit much material ahd already been pubblished. My take here is that Wotc saw that this major interest of FR buyers and fans concerned solely Faerun and so they focused their pubblishing line exclusively for it for the first 6 years of the Realms in the 3.5 era. People are however demanding for those settings again.I don't thinkl we 'll have longer till we see them being printed again.(or perhaps anew). -Maztica never sold "very well", as you say. Again, TSR/WotC is a business. If something is selling well, you are not going to yank it from the shelves. Pokemon- Do you think Nintendo ever entertained the notion of scrapping the line back in '99-'02 (When it was really big)? Do you think Mars will ever stop selling M&Ms? Would a Church/Temple/Mosque/Other close down when it's walls became jam packed during services? Dude, your name is Karsus. You 're supposed to like flames...(and lightning bolts too for that reason). -Hmm...Should I say it? Nah, it's really too mean. I was going to say something along the lines of, "Dude, you are European, so you're supposed to like having intimate relationships with other men", but that really is a little insulting (to homosexual people, of course). Dan told me that he finds the Maztica setting interesting yet he doesn't like to see it printed in 3.5 because it's not thematically topical.(which by the way "not thematically topical" means in short "out of place"). Dan then adds:I think that quantum mechanics is incredibly interesting, but I don't want a sourcebook dedicated to it in Faerun. Dude, in the first line we're talking about two continents and how they realate to each other.Dan thinks they are not coaleshing well while I think the contrary. It is clear that he threw in the "quantum physics being printed in Fareun" argument to show two things that do not match, but I still think that his example was a bad one and out of place when wanting to compare continent to continent and how they mesh with each other. -At least you now admit that you understood what Dan was talking about. Am I the only one who sees it this way, or is that all Americans (since the Europeans here are very few) don't want to take the side of a European guy? -The majority of us do not know where you come from, nor do we care. Thus, it plays no factor. You are alone because no one really agrees with you. That is usually a sign in a debate that your position is not very convincing, and/or you have already lost your audience. Cited sources, credibility in your other statements, non-biased observations, actual attempts at research. You know the stuff that makes that silly thing called science go round. -[Mock Fear]Ohhh, Science![/Mock Fear]
Karsus the Mad 03-29-07, 10:03 AM	-Or not. KtM took my name No I didn't. You took mine. You used chronomancy to retroactively change our join dates so that it looks like you were the first of the Karsi. I see. Then you're actually saying that you possess exact stats about Sourcebook sales, the number of people with a board account and from these elements you're in position to say that the majority of people who own the PHB (Assuming they play D&D) are not registered here. It doesn't make any sense to me. Merely out of curiousity, but how have you come to the conclusion that you hold? What is your basis for confirmation?
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 10:10 AM	No I didn't. You took mine. You used chronomancy to retroactively change our join dates so that it looks like you were the first of the Karsi. -Would this aspect do that to you? :ayyyy!: -And anyway, you know how much I detest Chronomancy, especially after that..."alleged" incident in Lantan, which I am not guilty of, of course, if it did actually happen...:shifty:
Francius 03-29-07, 10:56 AM	I did say it was an extreme example. Still it highlights my point, since it seem you need to "sharpen your perceptive skills" when it comes to analogies. You take these statements too literally. You did say it was an extreme example yet you went on and posted it nonetheless. You seem to be out of perception skills when it comes to posting paragons between two completely different things to sustain your thesis and so your examples still come down as absurd to me. Well, since you won't acknowledge this line of discussion, there's not point in going there. Ed's responses to such topics are well cataloged on Candlekeep. I will more than wholeheartidly acknowledge the line of discussion concerning the parts of Abeir-Toril Ed designed as opposed to the ones he left to his co-designers, given that you posses knowledge about them as you said. Candlekeep sure has everything from Ed catalogued, but have you read the parts concerning Maztica before posting your opinion about how it was created? Your two statements don't match. How can writers take inspiration from Ed to form a complete Toril, yet then you say the other continents don't and shouldn't mesh with Faerun. To say nothing of the lack of notes from Ed about the other non-Faerunian continents, so I'm not sure what notes you speak of. My statements seem to not match in front of your eyes just because you fail to comprehend and correctly place the two things I write in your mind. Co-writers/designers took the basic premise from Ed's ideas to design the rest of the Abeir-Toril world. The continents and places they designed were not suposed to be related to Faerun.Are Earth's civilizations related one to another.Are Eberron's ones related one to another? Even if it had been Ed designing them, Maztica's, Zakhara's and Kara-Tur's cultures would still be much separated and diverse from Faerun. They don't have to.They didn't need to.They shouldn't. Just like Europe's culture never meshed with America's till 1492. Each continent of Abeir-Toril has its own lore and culture.Each is unique and special. The only thing that Abeir-Toril and its other continents have in common is coexistence. That is how it is supposed (correctly) to be. From your responses to me I realize you neglect reading my previous answers so I'll just save me some time by reposting them.Either way my answer to you on the same questions over and over again cannot change just because you did not understand them in the first place. Doesn't excuse Kara-Tur and Zakhara. Or about the vast differences in the design philosophy used for Faerun versus that of Maztica rather than discussing the in game interaction. See what I mean? It doesn't have to excuse them.They need not be excused. They are fine as they are. Please refer again to my previous answer. If by unique and special lore and culture you mean take real history and change a few names around, then yeah... Not just a few names around. Don't be so superficial and simplistic overthrowing everything in your judgement. Even if Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur do resemble Earth-like cultures and civilizations, they are different and separated for a big score from their original counterparts and they are coalished with a huge re-design that incorporates fantasy elements thus nmaking them diverse and unique in their genre. They are not just Earth cultures with a few names changed and a few dates remixed. :rolleyes: You do realize that Faerun tries very hard to only vaguely resemble Europe while the rest of Toril ARE their Earth counterparts with the names and dates mixed up. That's what I like about my Forgotten Realms and that's why I chose it over every other setting. So what's your point here? One cannot like fantasy inspired from the real world? How about Middle-Earth? Does it not resemble Europe? In fact the fourth age of that world IS Europe. Still everyone likes and loves the Tolkien's Earth in the Middle. Funny, I thought for sure most of humanity over the majority of human history existed on three very well connected continents. If you mean coexistence in that sense, then why don't we see the same interactions on Toril? Coexistence between those cultures and nations. That's why they are so different. They do NOT interact. They just coexist. Separated or not. Very well connected or not. We can't see interactions on them in Toril since they do HAVE to interact. (at least not up to the current point of Toril's history). They just coexist. Suit yourself. Perhaps that is why your viewpoints come off as narrow to me.You need to actually bothered looking things up outside of FR. I told you I don't have time to read all the fictional worlds that do exist out there because I have a life to attend to. And you go say that my views are narrow. Ok. Then I wish you to never acquire the sum of work I have to carry, so you can have lots of time to throw out of the window and concern yourself just with fantasy literature. I meant Hyborian Picts, who only vaguely resemble real world Picts. For ease of reference I quote from Wikipedia -- "Pictish Wilderness: Pictish Scotland, with an overlay of North America during the European colonization of the Americas, possibly even colonial-era New York. Howard bestows Algonquian languages names on his Picts. Note that the name "Pict" comes from the Latin language term for "painted one," which could be applicable to a number of the Indigenous peoples of the Americas. The historical termed Picts were a confederation of tribes in central and northern Scotland which bordered Roman Britain." True, they do resemble a lot their real life counterparts. On a side note, do you notice how many fantasy authors take up elements from real life and put hem in their creations? Don't raise your finger only against our Toril. Still, the facts that those Picts existed in Hyboria too, does not go to say that they resemble Native Americans' culture in a European setting.Their culure, history, names and habits are not even one third as complex or numeorus as those of the natives of the new world so you can just say that a sample *taste* of it exists in Hyboria. The Iroquois theme of the Hyborian Picts is confirmed in the Conan d20 RPG book, as well as the letters and notes Howard left where these ideas were discussed no doubt. I only possess the old Conan Rpg (pubblished by TSR). They have not brought the new Conan d20 here in Italy officially as of now.One can only order it. So how is it? I keep asking (as recently as this year) and the designers keep responding with the same "those are left for Dragon magazine" responses they said years ago. My observations reveal the opposite of what you claim. That while there is some interest in these settings, it's not enough to get Wizards to consider an in-depth product on them. Can you put me a link to your question to the designers and the answer they gave you? I only read once R.Baker's answer on Maztica in 3.5 and that was some 3 years ago. I think that with the increasing demand Maztica (and the other settings) are receiving, they will soon see pubblish light. Besides, we don't want an in-depth product about them. Just a normal 160 paged campaign expansion like Eberron gets for Sarlona. Cited sources, credibility in your other statements, non-biased observations, actual attempts at research. You know the stuff that makes that silly thing called science go round. But that's exactly what I provided you with. I told you that I've seen many polls in numerous sites concerning them and I repeat you that the designers denial of the settings brought in 3.5 was some three years ago. I'm basing my opinions on facts I read and search about all over the net.I told you I do not think that what the designers wrote three years ago should be taken as a mantra for the future to which I also added that I've seen numerous request polls for them on the net. Are you sure you're not typing those answers to me just to fill space? Nothing vengeful about it. I just find it useless to carry on a meaningful conversation with someone who gets negatively defensive against scrutiny. You started evading points I made with unrelated comments about my competency. I told you that if you neglect what I write just for retribution because you somehow feel that I'm being defensive towards you, then I should consider you superficiAL. You say I'm evading your points. Then I say that you deny and neglect the things and facts I present you with, with the result of going circles over the same subjects and never reaching a terminal point. Many of these sites contain the same people posting on different forums, all who still agree these settings don't hold up, aren't popular because they're boring, or other generally less than positive things about them. That is just an ipothesis you make. How would you know the people whom post on thwm are the same exact ones they post on other boards. Besides, it's only normal that on those discussions there will be people supporting Maztica, others who do not and third ones just...well, hiding undewr bridges and having long arms and fingers. You just stated the obvious. Take a look at the Paizo forums. They did a poll on favorite campaign setting. Greyhawk beat FR, Dark Sun and Mystara beat Eberron. For other forums it can be different. This comes in neat contrast with what you wrote in your previous quote. You said you see the same persons with different names posting on other forums too, yet you realize by that above poll you mention seeing that there exist many other different persons on the net with different preferences - not the same ones posting again and again the same things with just different avatars. Ask people on the Eberron boards if they like Eberron or FR better and you will get a biased result, same goes for the FR boards. It all depends on what sorts of gamers and audience visits a certain forum. :rolleyes: Thanks for the first grade of elementary school lesson. It is common knowledge that everyone talks with nice words about the things he likes, and his opinion tends to favor somehow his preferences and thus is not 100% concrete. The Kara-Tur/Zakhara revival poll was on the Future Releases thread of the main D&D forums, one of the heavier traffic portions. The petition manager also started a thread in the FR forums. Yet despite that, the poll only managed a small number of signatories. Bring that to WotC and they will just chuckle. Can you provide a link and tell me how long ago that poll was posted? If I remeber well however, the number of persons who signed was quite high. Are you sure you're rioght about this? They know the biased audience of these forums. These forums are one of many survey tools they use for product research. Included amongst the others are other online surveys, marketing research groups, actual sales, and the survey cards found in the back of their books. The forums are probably the smallest and least accurate of their methods.[/qiote] It's wrong to say that the opinions of the people who like those settings and want to see them pubblished again in 3.5 are biased. These are just their preferences. Let's say you love Ferrari cars. Would that then mean that you will be biased towards them when discussing with persons that like other kinds of sports cars? The answer here is *yes*. And it's only natural because you love Ferrari cars.If you had more critic to make about the cars's negative things than the good parts of it, then you wouldn't prefer them. You would go and choose another kind of sports car. Then you say three different things about the Future Releases forums: The Kara-Tur/Zakhara revival poll was on the Future Releases thread of the main D&D forums, one of the heavier traffic portions. These forums are one of many survey tools they (Wotc) use for product research. The forums are probably the smallest and least accurate of their methods Can you be more specific here? Which one of the three is it that you think as right? And just to anticipate one of your possible answers, if you go and say all of them are correct than please be kidding. [QUOTE=Dark Wizard]Everyone who buys a book doesn't go to these forums, but everyone who buys a book contributes to sales and at least sees the survey card in the book. The survey card? Don't make me laugh. We 're in 2007. We got internet which is facter and makes it less of a trouble to communicate with producers and designers in order to present them with our tastes and opinions. Nobody compiles and sends survey cards nowdays. It's like saying that it's faster to hand-write and send a letter instead of just e-mailing him. (Although hand writing a letter still brings you closer to the receiver instead of some stupid HTML character in electronic form - but that is not necessary when speaking with game producers) Actually, Sarlona is the only Eberron book I own (I've read the other Eberron books borrowed from friends). I purchased it not because it's an Eberron book but because of the psionics, otherworldly history, and mild Asian influences they marketed it with. I see. You first complain and lament about how the rest of the Realms' settings are not interconnected with Faerun and then you buy a book about a continent of a world you do not even know and for which you do not even possess the campaign setting. Are you then saying it's not necessary that the continents of a world have to be closely connected and meshed to enjoy just one of them? I've argued for and against that point if you've seen my other discussions on this topic. I believe a clever compromise is the base solution for this dilemma. However, at the very least, Kara-Tur and Zakhara/Al-Qadim were more or less separate settings. Kara-Tur and Zakhara/Al-Qadim were more or less separate settings because that's the correct way of designing other parts of the same planet. Who said I was offended? I was just curious to know since your methods seem blatantly biased and unscientific, going against all the basic things I learned in statistics, research methods, psychology perception, problem solving hierarchies from one particularly off track behavior class, and the little exposure I had to social network theory in cultural evolution. And I am curious to learn about the statistics, research methods, psychology perception and problem solving hierarchies you were taught and how to properly execute this kind of teachings and informations in order to gain knowledge.I am also interested to see what you drew from the little exposure you had to social network theory in cultural evolution. I would also like to learn about the mental exercises you follow in order to concetrate and pay better attention to the text you're currently reading as to not unwillinglyneglect some parts of it. If they were not failed experiments why don't we see these lines continue in the later 2e days. If they were successful, why aren't they given a chance in 3.5e? See what I 'm talking about Dark Wizard? You go on and question me for the same exact things I answered to other posters over and over again. Didn't I give my answer to that question? Didn't I? Did you read my response? No. You just go on in a stressing rush in order to write useless paragraphs and paragraphs just to show that you can hold your own in a discussion and have the final word in it -even if you have nothing more to say about the topic. That's why I have to answer contemporarily to 5 posters. Oh well, I 'll just copy and past it for you: I do not believe that the Maztica, Kara-Tur, The Hordelans and the Zakhara settings were dropped for the reason that they did not sell well. In fact I don't believe that they were dropped at all. During the 2nd edition days,they sold quite well and that is why they went on and pubblished quite some material for them.They wouldn't have done so if back in the day the settings did not sell well. The story then somehow changed because Faerun with its immense detail, history, geography, novelization and size overshadowed the whole rest of Abeir-Toril and since its sales alone were what continued to carry on the Realms, the rest of the material for the planet was "abbandoned" albeit much material ahd already been pubblished. My take here is that Wotc saw that this major interest of FR buyers and fans concerned solely Faerun and so they focused their pubblishing line exclusively for it for the first 6 years of the Realms in the 3.5 era. People are however demanding for those settings again.I don't think we 'll have longer till we see them being printed again.(or perhaps anew). IWhere is the magnificent campaign setting inspired by the thousands of years of Mesoamerican culture that does not rely on the storytelling crutch of throwing in blatant and forced analogs to Western imperialist conquerors bringing with them gold, glory and god? Is is here, Dark wizard. It's always been. You 're somehow rushing and judging it superficially when expressing yourself about it. Maztica is here. It needs a simple redux more than a complete update and it's ready to be pubblished in 3.5. Long live the "true world"! :D http://rom.rpgs.sytes.net/
Alac Luin 03-29-07, 11:23 AM	Is is here, Dark wizard. It's always been. You 're somehow rushing and judging it superficially when expressing yourself about it. Maztica is here. It needs a simple redux more than a complete update and it's ready to be pubblished in 3.5. Long live the "true world"! :D http://rom.rpgs.sytes.net/ Thats a thriving community, at the time I looked, zero posts there for six months in the forums, and no news has been posted on the main page for over a year. The site is laid out nicely, if incomplete, it is (or should that be "was") a work in progress.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-29-07, 11:27 AM	Hmm...Should I say it? Nah, it's really too mean. I was going to say something along the lines of, "Dude, you are European, so you're supposed to like having intimate relationships with other men", but that really is a little insulting (to homosexual people, of course). That's doesn't apply to the whole of Europe. Just Greece :D DB
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 11:34 AM	You did say it was an extreme example yet you went on and posted it nonetheless. You seem to be out of perception skills when it comes to posting paragons between two completely different things to sustain your thesis and so your examples still come down as absurd to me. -If everyone else, for the most part, is getting it, I think it might just be you. Are Earth's civilizations related one to another. -Yes, yes, they are. All of Humanity stems from Africa, from Mitochondrial Eve, Not into evolution? All of Humanity stems from Eve. Thus, everything has the same starting point, and it all branches out from there. Humans migrated all across the world, taking with them similar ideas, and developing similar ideas all at the same time. That is how common languages spread, that is how common writing spread, and so on. Each continent of Abeir-Toril has its own lore and culture.Each is unique and special. The only thing that Abeir-Toril and its other continents have in common is coexistence. That is how it is supposed (correctly) to be. -But, that doesn’t make any sense, which is why many of us dislike the extra settings. Like I mentioned before, on Earth, Humans had large migration waves, where common ideas and such were moved around, and taken from place to place. Spain, France and the Italian city-states were all, at points, under the domination of Rome. Thus, they all share similar cultural aspects, in some senses. But yet, they are all their own unique cultures. See what I mean? It doesn't have to excuse them.They need not be excused. They are fine as they are. -Were that true, no one would be complaining. Not just a few names around. -You are right- not just a few names. There’s names, events, people, places, Hell, even the geography. Don't be so superficial and simplistic overthrowing everything in your judgement. Even if Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur do resemble Earth-like cultures and civilizations, they are different and separated for a big score from their original counterparts and they are coalished with a huge re-design that incorporates fantasy elements thus nmaking them diverse and unique in their genre. -No, no they are not. Please provide some examples as to how Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur are really, really different from their actual counterparts. That's what I like about my Forgotten Realms and that's why I chose it over every other setting. So what's your point here? One cannot like fantasy inspired from the real world? How about Middle-Earth? Does it not resemble Europe? In fact the fourth age of that world IS Europe. Still everyone likes and loves the Tolkien's Earth in the Middle. -The point is that everything is going to be inspired by the actual world, but it doesn’t need to be blatantly copied from it, nearly word for word. They do NOT interact. They just coexist. Separated or not. Very well connected or not. We can't see interactions on them in Toril since they do HAVE to interact. (at least not up to the current point of Toril's history). They just coexist. -The majority of European nations during the “past” did interact. Rome and Egypt is probably the most famous and most obvious example. I told you I don't have time to read all the fictional worlds that do exist out there because I have a life to attend to. And you go say that my views are narrow. Ok. Then I wish you to never acquire the sum of work I have to carry, so you can have lots of time to throw out of the window and concern yourself just with fantasy literature. -Having or not having time is irrelevant, for the most part. Most information is available at the tips of your fingers. Before/after you post something, simply go to Wikipedia (which is a source of a lot of information). Simply go to Yahoo, or Google, continue ad nauseum. But that's exactly what I provided you with. I told you that I've seen many polls in numerous sites concerning them and I repeat you that the designers denial of the settings brought in 3.5 was some three years ago. I'm basing my opinions on facts I read and search about all over the net.I told you I do not think that what the designers wrote three years ago should be taken as a mantra for the future to which I also added that I've seen numerous request polls for them on the net. Are you sure you're not typing those answers to me just to fill space? -And I can tell you that I am actually the Pope. I am, actually. I’m also the King of Norway. The point is, he wants to see evidence, as in links, articles, and so on. The survey card? Don't make me laugh. We 're in 2007. -If you look, he says they at least see the card. He didn’t say they fill it out (which most don’t). See what I 'm talking about Dark Wizard? You go on and question me for the same exact things I answered to other posters over and over again. Didn't I give my answer to that question? Didn't I? -You gave an unsupported opinion, and nothing more. That's doesn't apply to the whole of Europe. Just Greece :D DB -Well, where ever. Pick and choose where you want, I guess. :)
Stigger 03-29-07, 03:12 PM	:banghead: Sums up a lot of it... What I see this current line of discussion boiling down to is that Francius believes the return of Maztica, and possibly the 'other settings', return to publishing is imminent due to activity he/she's observed on the Internet. Everyone else is basically disagreeing with his/her read of WotC's intentions, and now we're simply devolving into a semantical arguement over who's methods and opinions are valid and who's aren't. This is doomed to locking if it continues in its current form. Just agree to disagree and walk away would be my advice.
Loestalx 03-29-07, 04:09 PM	:banghead: Sums up a lot of it... What I see this current line of discussion boiling down to is that Francius believes the return of Maztica, and possibly the 'other settings', return to publishing is imminent due to activity he/she's observed on the Internet. Everyone else is basically disagreeing with his/her read of WotC's intentions, and now we're simply devolving into a semantical arguement over who's methods and opinions are valid and who's aren't. This is doomed to locking if it continues in its current form. Just agree to disagree and walk away would be my advice. It should of probably of been locked a page and ahalf ago.
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 05:07 PM	:banghead: Sums up a lot of it... -A lot of that is going around, nowadays.
Stigger 03-29-07, 05:24 PM	Yes... too much for my liking.
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 05:28 PM	-It comes and goes in waves, I've noticed. We're in high tide right now, it seems, and hopefully, things will be waning.
Francius 03-29-07, 06:42 PM	What I see this current line of discussion boiling down to is that Francius believes the return of Maztica, and possibly the 'other settings', return to publishing is imminent due to activity he/she's observed on the Internet. Everyone else is basically disagreeing with his/her read of WotC's intentions, and now we're simply devolving into a semantical arguement over who's methods and opinions are valid and who's aren't. This is doomed to locking if it continues in its current form. Just agree to disagree and walk away would be my advice. This Stigger guy/girl obviously has problems opening the window with info about the posters or even judging them from their avatar. I won't get into the other things you say because I really do not care, but my advise to you is that before you go on making presumptions about other persons' sex you better read their personal info. Some folk would get offended by that neglection of yours. Well, in the case you didn't notice it from some other posts of mine (when I was talking about women), I am a man.But since I think you already know this thing, I presume you're just looking to **** me off and look for trouble with me. If you still can't understand what I say, I 'll tell you in conclusion that we can meet in person and set who's man and who isn't. Or is it (again) that this Stigger guy/girl has reading problems?
Francius 03-29-07, 06:51 PM	Hmm...Should I say it? Nah, it's really too mean. I was going to say something along the lines of, "Dude, you are European, so you're supposed to like having intimate relationships with other men", but that really is a little insulting (to homosexual people, of course). On what basis are you bulding that statement? I was joking with you about the flames and lightning bolts and you dare to go on and say that European men are supposed to like having intimate relationships with other men? Even if you meant it as a joke you realize that it is mean and provocatory don't you? You really want to see what European men are made of? Come visit us here in Rome. (I say Rome because this is where I 'm from - another European guy will tell you to go visit his city) It's common knowledge that the rating of hómos in the US is higher than Europe. Was that joke of yours a diversion to hide that fact, or are you trying to really insult us European men?
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 07:19 PM	On what basis are you bulding that statement? -Hmm...The same basis that you used to entertain the notion that there are hordes of Maztica fans who are just itching to get their hands on some newly published Maztica books. I was joking with you about the flames and lightning bolts and you dare to go on and say that European men are supposed to like having intimate relationships with other men? :rolleyes: Even if you meant it as a joke you realize that it is mean and provocatory don't you? -Nah, it really wasn't meant as a joke. You flamed me multiple times, so I decided to not take the "better than that" route, and I decided to sling mud as well. As the saying goes, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen". You really want to see what European men are made of? -I'd rather not, actually. If it wasn't clear by my comments earlier, I really don't do things like that. Come visit us here in Rome. (I say Rome because this is where I 'm from - another European guy will tell you to go visit his city) -I'm not at all interested in visiting any of Italy, though thank you for the offer. It's common knowledge that the rating of hómos in the US is higher than Europe. -Maybe so, but Europe has a much higher ratio of "Metrosexuals" (Men who have adapted themselves to the "alternate" lifestyle, minus the same-sex relationships. In other words, the tight clothing, pop music, and so on.) We're an accepting people, though. I know that I've got nothing personally against homosexual people. Don't know why, either, but a large portion of my online friends are all gay. Was that joke of yours a diversion to hide that fact, or are you trying to really insult us European men? -I was really just trying to insult you, actually. Now, though, not so much. I'm feeling a lot happier than I was a couple of hours when I wrote that. That isn't an apology, though. -Anyway, what is so bad about being homosexual? Some of the best people were homosexual- Freddy Mercury, Francis Bacon, Elton John, Janis Joplin (I think), Alan turing. The list goes on... -Stig, now this thread is really going to get locked. ;)
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-29-07, 07:39 PM	If so, it would be high time anyway. DB
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 07:43 PM	-Yeah, it's not like unsettling revelations have been revealed. Actually, I feel stupider now, as opposed to before I started contributing to this thread. ;)
Stigger 03-29-07, 09:08 PM	This Stigger guy/girl obviously has problems opening the window with info about the posters or even judging them from their avatar. I won't get into the other things you say because I really do not care, but my advise to you is that before you go on making presumptions about other persons' sex you better read their personal info. Some folk would get offended by that neglection of yours. Well, in the case you didn't notice it from some other posts of mine (when I was talking about women), I am a man.But since I think you already know this thing, I presume you're just looking to **** me off and look for trouble with me. If you still can't understand what I say, I 'll tell you in conclusion that we can meet in person and set who's man and who isn't. Or is it (again) that this Stigger guy/girl has reading problems? I do my best to avoid making presumptions about gender unless I see something that specifically states gender. I do not recall having seen you mention your gender one way or another, if you had, I probably forgot about it or missed it in the first place. The name Francius could be seen as somewhat gender neutral, since both genders use Francis and its variations fairly equally as names, something I'm intimately familiar with as it is my own middle name, and I have known numerous women by that name as well. I am a little surprised by the vehemence which you seem to feel towards asserting your masculinity however, as it is often very difficult to ascertain gender via internet posts given the inherent anonymity that accompanies posting on a forum like this. Maybe you just liked the picture you used for your avatar, maybe you were a woman who preferred the reaction adopting a male persona can give (obviously not the case, but it could very well have been)... there's no way of knowing what gender you are until you state it, and even then there can be doubt since there's no way to verify that... which is a problem with anyone on the Internet. I am male myself, but I could just be saying that, for whatever inscrutable reasons I may have, and actually be female. There's no way to know for certain until you meet someone what their actual gender is as far as the internet is concerned, more often than not. If you're offended, well, that's your concern. That was not my intention, but simply a way of avoiding the more gender neutral 'it' in reference to you. The veiled threat there I find amusing however. The insinuation of my lack of reading skills I find laughable as well. I would suggest that perhaps you should read what others post on these boards with considerably less of a personal and insulting eye, unless of course that is indeed the lense through which you view life and state your opinions... in which case, you have my sympathy and hopes that you one day learn what mature and reasonable discourse is.
Loestalx 03-29-07, 09:46 PM	Man, funny stuff. May as well flame this thread to the grave...keep going!
Dark Wizard 03-29-07, 11:07 PM	You did say it was an extreme example yet you went on and posted it nonetheless. You seem to be out of perception skills when it comes to posting paragons between two completely different things to sustain your thesis and so your examples still come down as absurd to me. It was an extreme example used to help highlight a point, which everyone except you seems to understand. Candlekeep sure has everything from Ed catalogued, but have you read the parts concerning Maztica before posting your opinion about how it was created? Do you have one of his replies in particular that you want to point out? Co-writers/designers took the basic premise from Ed's ideas to design the rest of the Abeir-Toril world. From what I've seen, they were more or less designed independently with only their official location set on Toril. You haven't shown what ideas of Ed's they utilized to produce a cohesive world. The continents and places they designed were not suposed to be related to Faerun.Are Earth's civilizations related one to another. You can bet your Indo-European behind they are. (Indo-European, look it up.) Are Eberron's ones related one to another? They are actually. Xen'drik is the ruined seat of a Giant civilization who played a big part in the formation of the current state of Eberron. Argonnesse is the home of the dragons who go about their own manipulations of (or indifference towards) the rest of the world, the Draconic Prophecies play a significant role in the world. The elves come from Aerenal, the situation there led elves to exodus and found Valenar on Khorvaire. The human civilization of Khorvaire originated from Sarlona. Sarlona has an eye towards taking over Khorvaire (and pretty much all of existence). These are just the broad strokes, the major interactions. Just like Europe's culture never meshed with America's till 1492. You do know that the Siberian peoples share much in common with the Inuit cultures of North America? The similarities stretch as far as the Finns and Lapps. It's not a great parallel but it's present. The cultural trends across Afro-Eurasia are vastly more apparent. Not just a few names around. Don't be so superficial and simplistic overthrowing everything in your judgement. If I don't consider everything, how can I make a proper judgement? Even if Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur do resemble Earth-like cultures and civilizations, they are different and separated for a big score from their original counterparts and they are coalished with a huge re-design that incorporates fantasy elements thus nmaking them diverse and unique in their genre. They are not just Earth cultures with a few names changed and a few dates remixed. I'll simply direct you to reread the comments of other posters who have pointed the jarring similarities between Maztica and the European conquest of the Mesoamerica. That's what I like about my Forgotten Realms and that's why I chose it over every other setting. So what's your point here? One cannot like fantasy inspired from the real world? How about Middle-Earth? Does it not resemble Europe? In fact the fourth age of that world IS Europe. Still everyone likes and loves the Tolkien's Earth in the Middle. That's because Middle Earth is supposed to be a mythic Earth lost to prehistory. Faerun is a different world, it doesn't have that excuse. Even then the events in Tolkien's world do not blatantly resemble any historical events except at the archetypal level. There is a vast difference between inspiration and direct analog that fails to take the material in a new direction. I told you I don't have time to read all the fictional worlds that do exist out there because I have a life to attend to. And you go say that my views are narrow. Ok. Then I wish you to never acquire the sum of work I have to carry, so you can have lots of time to throw out of the window and concern yourself just with fantasy literature. Oddly, despite the amount of work you have to do you're right here with me arguing about fantasy worlds. I never asked you to read about all the worlds in existence, I barely asked you to read about one. Then again, you were the one who asked me if any other setting that had a focus on Meso-American style cultures, I merely answered. True, they do resemble a lot their real life counterparts. On a side note, do you notice how many fantasy authors take up elements from real life and put hem in their creations? Don't raise your finger only against our Toril. I would be happy if non-Faerunian Toril did the same thing as Hyboria. Did you notice that Howard combined elements from two different cultures to create something new. The Hyborian Picts resemble the archetype of painted wild men, thus it opens them up for countless story opportunities. Still, the facts that those Picts existed in Hyboria too, does not go to say that they resemble Native Americans' culture in a European setting.Their culure, history, names and habits are not even one third as complex or numeorus as those of the natives of the new world so you can just say that a sample *taste* of it exists in Hyboria. The approach Howard took towards the Picts is a similar approach Ed took towards all of Faerun. Not so with the other continents. I only possess the old Conan Rpg (pubblished by TSR). They have not brought the new Conan d20 here in Italy officially as of now.One can only order it. So how is it? Some say good, others hold it in high regard, especially if you're a fan of Conan (purists can choose to ignore certain elements). Can you put me a link to your question to the designers and the answer they gave you? I only read once R.Baker's answer on Maztica in 3.5 and that was some 3 years ago. I think that with the increasing demand Maztica (and the other settings) are receiving, they will soon see pubblish light. Page 12 of Richard Baker's thread in the Chamber of Sages at the Candlekeep Forums. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1896&whichpage=12 His reply reads as follows: "It's an interesting idea. But, I hate to say it -- we have no plans to tackle Oriental Adventures, Arabian Adventures, or Kara-Tur any time in 2007, which is as far out as I can discuss specific product plans. (At this point I would consider it highly unlikely for 2008, too, but I can't speak with as much confidence there simply because it's longer out.) Our business and management teams are very skeptical of product lines or one-offs that would appeal to only a subset of the audience. They'd much rather spend our time and energy creating sourcebooks with the broadest appeal possible. Kara-Tur in the context of FR is a subset of a subset -- something our business guys really don't want to spend much effort on." But that's exactly what I provided you with. I told you that I've seen many polls in numerous sites concerning them and I repeat you that the designers denial of the settings brought in 3.5 was some three years ago. I'm basing my opinions on facts I read and search about all over the net.I told you I do not think that what the designers wrote three years ago should be taken as a mantra for the future to which I also added that I've seen numerous request polls for them on the net. Are you sure you're not typing those answers to me just to fill space? Do you have links? Can you provide the results of these polls? More importantly what are the validity of these polls, such as are they posted on Maztica fansites for biased results? Etc. You have pointed none of these out, only said you recall seeing them. At the least I have pointed out responses from the designers (which you acknowledge happened 3 years ago). The designers have coupled their responses with the official analysis from their business department that showed these settings are not viable. No where as near revival and publication as you so claim. I have also provided you with an logical spot interpretation of the sub-setting threads present on the WotC forums, which while not comprehensive are a sample nonetheless. The entire point of a poll or petition is to increase awareness of these settings, to try to get WotC to notice their small minority interest. WotC has made no signs that the poll or petition results contribute any useful data that counters their initial assessment. Thanks for the first grade of elementary school lesson. It is common knowledge that everyone talks with nice words about the things he likes, and his opinion tends to favor somehow his preferences and thus is not 100% concrete. Apparently you still missed my point entirely, the quoted statement belongs with the ones preceeding it as a supporting point. Can you provide a link and tell me how long ago that poll was posted? If I remeber well however, the number of persons who signed was quite high. Are you sure you're rioght about this? This threat in the FR forums: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=776468 The topic dates to late January, but the main thread about this, where the petition originated stated before that. Linking to this Petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?KTAQ3p5 The petition has 153 signatures. Not knowing the exact number of people who saw the petition and didn't bother to sign, this isn't conclusive. However, ~150 signatures, it's not much of a market for two settings... :( It's wrong to say that the opinions of the people who like those settings and want to see them pubblished again in 3.5 are biased. These are just their preferences. Let's say you love Ferrari cars. Would that then mean that you will be biased towards them when discussing with persons that like other kinds of sports cars? The answer here is *yes*. And it's only natural because you love Ferrari cars.If you had more critic to make about the cars's negative things than the good parts of it, then you wouldn't prefer them. You would go and choose another kind of sports car. You missed my point entirely. I'm saying you may have visited sites favoring Maztica, thus your observations are biased. You think you see lots of support for Maztica, when there really isn't, you just hang around a small minority who do. Then you say three different things about the Future Releases forums: The Kara-Tur/Zakhara revival poll was on the Future Releases thread of the main D&D forums, one of the heavier traffic portions. These forums are one of many survey tools they (Wotc) use for product research. The forums are probably the smallest and least accurate of their methods Can you be more specific here? Which one of the three is it that you think as right? And just to anticipate one of your possible answers, if you go and say all of them are correct than please be kidding. Simple rundown: Future Releases thread is a heavier traffic portion for this site. Forums are one of many tools for WotC's products research. Forums most likely represent only a small and biased sample. The survey card? Don't make me laugh. We 're in 2007. We got internet which is facter and makes it less of a trouble to communicate with producers and designers in order to present them with our tastes and opinions. Nobody compiles and sends survey cards nowdays. It's like saying that it's faster to hand-write and send a letter instead of just e-mailing him. (Although hand writing a letter still brings you closer to the receiver instead of some stupid HTML character in electronic form - but that is not necessary when speaking with game producers) How many people who buy D&D products do you think visits these boards even on a semi-regular basis to make their opinions heard. From what I can gather, about a third of North America still makes do without internet usage (and this considering a very broad definition of internet access). What do you think gives WotC better numbers, internet polls or actual sales? Your faith in the ubiquity of the internet in everyone's lives is misplaced due to your own experiences. I see. You first complain and lament about how the rest of the Realms' settings are not interconnected with Faerun and then you buy a book about a continent of a world you do not even know and for which you do not even possess the campaign setting. Are you then saying it's not necessary that the continents of a world have to be closely connected and meshed to enjoy just one of them? How is purchasing a book on Sarlona saying I believe continents don't have to be interconnected with others. What sort of sad logic is that? I fully expect Sarlona to contain numerous ties to Khorvaire and the other continents. Just because a place can be used as a standalone does not mean that it should stand alone when marketed as part of a larger world. Kara-Tur and Zakhara/Al-Qadim were more or less separate settings because that's the correct way of designing other parts of the same planet. Or a more forced by the marketing and business people to combine two or more unrelated settings in order to improve sales. I would also like to learn about the mental exercises you follow in order to concetrate and pay better attention to the text you're currently reading as to not unwillinglyneglect some parts of it. Never said I held the secret to solving ADHD. That's why I have to answer contemporarily to 5 posters. This is because you're the only poster here who thinks this way about Maztica and the other continents. you came in here spouting ill-supported statements as facts when most here are more realistic. Is is here, Dark wizard. It's always been. You 're somehow rushing and judging it superficially when expressing yourself about it. Maztica is here. Have you even read my comments on it? Or did your eyes just skip over this part of my post -- "...that does not rely on the storytelling crutch of throwing in blatant and forced analogs to Western imperialist conquerors..."
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 11:47 PM	It's an interesting idea. But, I hate to say it -- we have no plans to tackle Oriental Adventures, Arabian Adventures, or Kara-Tur any time in 2007, which is as far out as I can discuss specific product plans. (At this point I would consider it highly unlikely for 2008, too, but I can't speak with as much confidence there simply because it's longer out.) Our business and management teams are very skeptical of product lines or one-offs that would appeal to only a subset of the audience. They'd much rather spend our time and energy creating sourcebooks with the broadest appeal possible. Kara-Tur in the context of FR is a subset of a subset -- something our business guys really don't want to spend much effort on." -Wait, I can see it now. "He didn't mention Maztica, so that must be definitive proof that the setting will be making a come back in the near future..." :nonono: :rolleyes:
Dark Wizard 03-29-07, 11:50 PM	I have more: That is just an ipothesis you make. How would you know the people whom post on thwm are the same exact ones they post on other boards. Besides, it's only normal that on those discussions there will be people supporting Maztica, others who do not and third ones just...well, hiding undewr bridges and having long arms and fingers. You just stated the obvious. Seems like even the obvious is flying right past you. The portion who aren't interested in Maztica are as important if not more so that those who are. WotC wants to know what that untapped market wants, if it's not Maztica, it's something else. So all the postive polling and petition you see is answering only half the question. You right, it's only my opinion that large portions of the forums are the same posters. though I don't think you have much to show they're not. I just notice the same names, or variations through several forums. It's not like you've linked to the other forums you've visited that remarkably showed how Maztica is on the verge of an immenent revival. This comes in neat contrast with what you wrote in your previous quote. You said you see the same persons with different names posting on other forums too, yet you realize by that above poll you mention seeing that there exist many other different persons on the net with different preferences - not the same ones posting again and again the same things with just different avatars. On average each forum will have general interests. Nothing is stopping 10 posters from a pro-Maztica forum from starting similar threads on the WotC forums and then making it appear that forum is excited about Maztica. That still doesn't mean Maztica is any more popular than it is. I was discussing hypothetical situations to explain why you might be seeing this miraculous phenomenon of a Maztica sweep across the internet demanding the return of the setting. And I am curious to learn about the statistics, research methods, psychology perception and problem solving hierarchies you were taught and how to properly execute this kind of teachings and informations in order to gain knowledge.I am also interested to see what you drew from the little exposure you had to social network theory in cultural evolution. You said you see lots of polls and postive response to Maztica on the internet. Yet you do not provide any links. Where is your evidence. It all comes down to evidence in science. You have no proof for your supposed findings. Then you went on to questioning my competency and perception as if I haven't been trained in basic information gathering and analysis techniques. I thought I should just state them for the record since it seems like you have no clue where I'm getting my ideas from. For the social networking bit, just read my replies about the forums hopping above, it's as practical a discussion as any. What information gets to you all depends on what network hubs you are connected to (forums), your reaction is modified by your state (positive regard towards Maztica). Because you are connected to only pro-Maztica information, both predispositioned physically and mentally, it seems to you the world is all pro-Maztica, when it isn't. Now you've finally hit a hub of activity where the people don't think like you do. That is why you alone are replying to 5 different posters as you said. We've all been exposed to information hubs that say the opposite of what you believe. How this all works is that we trade information and try to convert the other to our respective state. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. However, most of the times, the larger hubs and more numerous nodes will cause the minor state to go extinct. This doesn't help you since WotC (in this case, they're the scientist who sets the parameters for the network world) established parameters biased against Maztica. I've just given you the secret to the revival of Maztica.
Dark Wizard 03-30-07, 01:05 AM	I do not believe that the Maztica, Kara-Tur, The Hordelans and the Zakhara settings were dropped for the reason that they did not sell well. In fact I don't believe that they were dropped at all. Really now. Let's take a look at some numbers. Maztica Sourcebook/Boxed Set: 1 Adventures: 3 Novels: 3 Games: 0 Product Line Active: 1989 ~ 1992 Kara-Tur Sourcebooks/Boxed Sets: 1 (2 if counting 1e's OA) Adventures: 8 Novels: 3 (w/ one canceled series) Games: 0 Product Line Active: 1988 (1985) ~ 1990(?) Al-Qadim/Zakhara Sourcebooks/Boxed Sets: 10 Adventures: 4 Novels: 0 Games: 1 Product Line Active 1992 ~ ???? Dark Sun Sourcebooks/Boxed Sets: 18 Adventures: 16 Novels: 13 Games: 2 Product Line Active: 1990 ~ 1996 Ravenloft Sourcebooks/Boxed Sets: 38 Adventures: 26 (30) [+2 crossovers with FR and Greyhawk/Planescape, +2 original modules] Novels: 20 Games: 0 Product Line Active: 1990 ~ 1999 Spelljammer Sourcebooks/Boxed Sets: 15 Adventures: 6 Novels: 6 (& Comics series 1-15) Games: 1 Product Line Active: 1990 ~ 1993 Planescape Sourcebooks/Boxed Sets: ? Adventures: ? Novels: 5 Games: Yes (It's Planescape:Torment, it defies convention) Product Line Active: 1994 ~ 1999 Used the best information I could get my hands on (Wikipedia, followed by browsing the links from there). I appreciate any help in filling the blanks or correcting the numbers. These should give a decently accurate if rough estimate. I got tired around Spelljammer and couldn't finish Planescape, so I would be thankful for those numbers. Faerun, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance are just too massive to tally up at this late hour. Mystara ... someone can do that if you like. It's not difficult to see the dismal support the FR sub-settings received when compared against actual settings. Interestingly, Maztica had the least support of all.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-30-07, 01:36 AM	Al-Qadim/Zakhara Sourcebooks/Boxed Sets: 10 Adventures: 4 Novels: 0 Games: 0 Product Line Active 1992 ~ ???? Not that it matters, but SSI published one Al-Qadim game, namely The Genie's Curse in 1994. But quite frankly, you're investing more time and effort into this discussion than it's worth. DB
Dark Wizard 03-30-07, 01:44 AM	Not that it matters, but SSI published one Al-Qadim game, namely The Genie's Curse in 1994. But quite frankly, you're investing more time and effort into this discussion than it's worth. DB Doh! How could I forget that. I used to love that game and play it all the time. That was before I knew what A-Qadim or even D&D was, so maybe that's why the connect remains weak to this day. Alright, I've probably said all I should and can in this discussion. I think I'll go into semi-retirement on this matter and return to my revitalization of the eastern realms.
Stigger 03-30-07, 01:45 AM	Spite can produce some impressive effects however... which isn't entirely unexpected from a Dark Wizard... but Dexter does have a point, it is a bit much to justify. Not like it won't be taken completely out of context and misinterpreted into something completely besides the point anyway...
Ranger REG 03-30-07, 01:59 AM	Kara-Tur Sourcebooks/Boxed Sets: 1 (2 if counting 1e's OA) Adventures: 8 Novels: 3 (w/ one canceled series) Games: 0 Product Line Active: 1988 (1985) ~ 1990(?) Does anyone remembered any of the Kara-Tur novel title because I have not seen any one of them. I know they did some novel character stats in the old Hall of Heroes book. But novels? :noway:
GothicDan 03-30-07, 02:59 AM	Now I'm just giggling at this thread. In particular, posters who are amazingly convinced of facts for no actual concrete reasons.
Francius 03-30-07, 07:57 AM	I do my best to avoid making presumptions about gender unless I see something that specifically states gender. I do not recall having seen you mention your gender one way or another, if you had, I probably forgot about it or missed it in the first place. The name Francius could be seen as somewhat gender neutral, since both genders use Francis and its variations fairly equally as names, something I'm intimately familiar with as it is my own middle name, and I have known numerous women by that name as well. Francis is not a name both genders use at all.I don't know what kind of women bearing that name you've met, nor do I care, but the female version of the name Frank/Francis is actually Francine in English.Look it up. That, my avatar and the tone of my posts surely can add a clue about my masculinity. If you still cannot tell then I can't guess to what kind of male posters you're used to chat with, since you can't form an idea just by reading the stuff they write. But since you say you don't use making presumptions about posters' gender, then you could have just repeated my name instead of the pronouns. Is that clear? I am a little surprised by the vehemence which you seem to feel towards asserting your masculinity however, as it is often very difficult to ascertain gender via internet posts given the inherent anonymity that accompanies posting on a forum like this. Maybe you just liked the picture you used for your avatar, maybe you were a woman who preferred the reaction adopting a male persona can give (obviously not the case, but it could very well have been)... there's no way of knowing what gender you are until you state it, and even then there can be doubt since there's no way to verify that... which is a problem with anyone on the Internet. Since the cases then are so many, you just follow the advise I gave you to avoid having these kind of problems in the futre with people whose gender you cannot guess. It's only natural for a real man to have a vehemence for his masculinity.I am a man and proud of it. Are you not? I am male myself, but I could just be saying that, for whatever inscrutable reasons I may have, and actually be female. There's no way to know for certain until you meet someone what their actual gender is as far as the internet is concerned, more often than not. You can act and behave the way you like, I don't care, even if this means that you might pretend being a man when you're a woman and vice versa. As for me, I like to put this fact straight. If you're offended, well, that's your concern. That was not my intention, but simply a way of avoiding the more gender neutral 'it' in reference to you. The veiled threat there I find amusing however. The insinuation of my lack of reading skills I find laughable as well. I would suggest that perhaps you should read what others post on these boards with considerably less of a personal and insulting eye, unless of course that is indeed the lense through which you view life and state your opinions... in which case, you have my sympathy and hopes that you one day learn what mature and reasonable discourse is. Actually, if I 'm offended about something *you* wrote about me in a wrong way, it should be *your* concern because it is *you* the one in error in the first place. In such a case you should better just apologize, otherwise the issue will just go further. Now, you don't want this to happen, do you? Next time ask or just use the user's default name when you can't say the poster's gender, especially when speaking to men who do not like to be mistaken for females even if their correlator does not know them. Is this clear to you?
Francius 03-30-07, 08:22 AM	-Hmm...The same basis that you used to entertain the notion that there are hordes of Maztica fans who are just itching to get their hands on some newly published Maztica books. This is totally irrelevant as it is stupid. Only an imbecillic person would state what you quoted about European men basing it off some other argument's talk. Do you understand that your line about us Europeans was a heavy insult? Nah, it really wasn't meant as a joke. You flamed me multiple times, so I decided to not take the "better than that" route, and I decided to sling mud as well. As the saying goes, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen". So now you admit you weren't joking. Really, what a funny guy you are. We were just exchanging opinions over a fantasy game and somehow at some point you decide to go on and post an insult to all guys from Europe just to change the discussion's route. I'd rather not, actually. If it wasn't clear by my comments earlier, I really don't do things like that. So now you're acting like a chicken and a coward. If you do not like things like that then how in the world did your stupid mind came even close to post a thing like it? I'm not at all interested in visiting any of Italy, though thank you for the offer Visit? Who invited you? That was just an advise to inhale back in the insult you posted about European men. -Maybe so, but Europe has a much higher ratio of "Metrosexuals" (Men who have adapted themselves to the "alternate" lifestyle, minus the same-sex relationships. In other words, the tight clothing, pop music, and so on.) We're an accepting people, though. I know that I've got nothing personally against homosexual people. Don't know why, either, but a large portion of my online friends are all gay. American population has a very much higher number of hómosexuals than Europe. It's funny how albeit knowing it, you dare talk about us men in Europa. You should then be careful when you spit in the air, because your saliva just might return and hit you in the face. This metrosexual style you talk about is imported only from America and only the few hómos here adopt it. I was really just trying to insult you, actually. Now, though, not so much. I'm feeling a lot happier than I was a couple of hours when I wrote that. That isn't an apology, though. Ok. You are happy when you insult people for no valid reason. Since I won't just go on and post useless words since you're clearly trying to raise a virtual dispute, sent me a private message and let's get it over with without waisting time and space on this thread. -Anyway, what is so bad about being homosexual? Some of the best people were homosexual- Freddy Mercury, Francis Bacon, Elton John, Janis Joplin (I think), Alan turing. The list goes on... So you don't think that is bad for a man to be gáy. If that is how you feel, do the rest of us have to presume that you are actually trying to tell us something here, Karsus? It's already strange as it is that you raised such a subject on a fantasy forum. LordK = LadyK? :rofl: -Stig, now this thread is really going to get locked. Good, so we can take it outside instead of having you posting insults for no valid reason and hiding behind anonimity like the coward you are. As for your next answer to me, don't even bother if you intend to post it here.I already told you what the next step is.Send me a private message so we can leave this thread out of it. I 'm done with this thread talking to a coward like you. Hint:Yes, the last phrase was a direct insult to you, karsus.
Lord Karsus 03-30-07, 10:47 AM	Francis is not a name both genders use at all.I don't know what kind of women bearing that name you've met, nor do I care, but the female version of the name Frank/Francis is actually Francine in English.Look it up. -Again, 100% incorrect. Francis is an ambiguous name, and both men and women share it. Francine is a completely different name, as is Frank. That, my avatar and the tone of my posts surely can add a clue about my masculinity. If you still cannot tell then I can't guess to what kind of male posters you're used to chat with, since you can't form an idea just by reading the stuff they write. But since you say you don't use making presumptions about posters' gender, then you could have just repeated my name instead of the pronouns. Is that clear? -I find this quite funny. Stigger was trying to be nice, by not calling you a girl accidentally, and here you go, insulting him for no reason. You really can’t make this stuff up…:nonono: Since the cases then are so many, you just follow the advise I gave you to avoid having these kind of problems in the futre with people whose gender you cannot guess. It's only natural for a real man to have a vehemence for his masculinity.I am a man and proud of it. Are you not? -Well, you know the saying. I don’t recall it word for word, but it goes a little something like, “Only the insecure react with anger.” Something like that. Actually, if I 'm offended about something *you* wrote about me in a wrong way, it should be *your* concern because it is *you* the one in error in the first place. In such a case you should better just apologize, otherwise the issue will just go further. Now, you don't want this to happen, do you? Next time ask or just use the user's default name when you can't say the poster's gender, especially when speaking to men who do not like to be mistaken for females even if their correlator does not know them. Is this clear to you? -Again, you really can’t make this stuff up. Anyway, your first paragraph up there, about being offended…That case need not be true. If someone wrote something based upon fact, and you took it the wrong way, they wouldn’t be the wrong ones, since their research is based on fact. Not that that applies in this case, but just raising the point. This is totally irrelevant as it is stupid. Only an imbecillic person would state what you quoted about European men basing it off some other argument's talk. -Let me translate it for you, since you seem to “lack perception skills”. I had no factual evidence to back up what I said, just like you have no factual evidence that suggests that the general masses are demanding new Maztica products. Get it? Should I type that slower for you? Do you understand that your line about us Europeans was a heavy insult? -Don't you think I intended it to be? If I didn't, don't you think I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place? So now you admit you weren't joking. -When did I say that I was? Really, what a funny guy you are. -I know, I know. My sense of humor really is amazing. We were just exchanging opinions over a fantasy game and somehow at some point you decide to go on and post an insult to all guys from Europe just to change the discussion's route. -Not really to change the discussion route. Like I said, I just didn’t feel like taking the high road anymore, so I decided to sling mud too. So now you're acting like a chicken and a coward. If you do not like things like that then how in the world did your stupid mind came even close to post a thing like it? -I’m not acting like a coward. You asked me if I wanted to see what European men were made out of, which viewed through the lens of the conversation that was at hand, sounded like an activity that I do not engage in. And, why did I bring it up in the first place, you ask? Well, like I said before, you flamed me (and other people) multiple times, so I decided to flame you as well, ignoring all that “Better than that” stuff. Visit? Who invited you? -You did, genius. You told me I should come to Europe. American population has a very much higher number of hómosexuals than Europe. It's funny how albeit knowing it, you dare talk about us men in Europa. -We’re not talking about homosexuals anymore. We’re talking about Metrosexuals now. You should then be careful when you spit in the air, because your saliva just might return and hit you in the face. -I don’t spit in the wind. What kind of person does? This metrosexual style you talk about is imported only from America and only the few hómos here adopt it. -Homosexuals do not adopt the Metrosexual lifestyle. Heterosexuals adopt it. That’s the entire point of the…”movement”. I suggest you look it up, if you don’t know what it is. Ok. You are happy when you insult people for no valid reason. Since I won't just go on and post useless words since you're clearly trying to raise a virtual dispute, sent me a private message and let's get it over with without waisting time and space on this thread. -No, I feel satisfied when I insult people who insult me (and others whom I get along with well enough). I don’t act, I react, in situations such as these. In other words, I don’t insult other people until I am insulted myself. You see, I have a reputation, and respect from others to upkeep. So you don't think that is bad for a man to be gáy. -As long as they don’t bother me with it, then why not? I don’t appreciate the overly flamboyant, “shove-it-down-your-throat” homosexuals, but other than that, they are free to do what they want in the privacy of their own time. Who am I (or you, or anyone else) to condemn someone else for something they do in their own private time that does not hurt me, or anyone else? You’re from Rome, you are a Catholic (I am presuming), so what happened to that idea of tolerance that Jesus taught? It's already strange as it is that you raised such a subject on a fantasy forum. -Well, that is the ultimate insult to a manly man like you, is it not? Good, so we can take it outside instead of having you posting insults for no valid reason and hiding behind anonimity like the coward you are. -Who is hiding? You post things, and I answer them. If anything, you are hiding, because Dark Wizard has posted a whole bunch of things negating virtually everything you have said, and you haven’t said anything in reponse. I 'm done with this thread talking to a coward like you. Hint:Yes, the last phrase was a direct insult to you, karsus -Alright. Goodbye Francis, who has a sexually ambiguous name. -Anyone keeping track of the amount of flames Francius has posted in this thread?
Karsus the Mad 03-30-07, 01:22 PM	-Anyone keeping track of the amount of flames Francius has posted in this thread? I counted six in just the last post:whatsthis
Stigger 03-30-07, 05:04 PM	You know, I'm beginning to understand those statistics that say 30% of Europeans female population are deciding to avoid marriage and children. I mean, I've known plenty of American's who justify figures like that, I just usually expected better out of Europeans for some reason. At least we have the excuse of our parents not really comprehending proper manners over here, more often than not. As to the homosexual issue... live and let live I say. I do agree though that the United States has a larger population of homosexuals though. That kinda comes with having a larger population and is somewhat unavoidable. Population percentage wise however, It's probably fairly comparable. But really, it is a pointless arguement that can't help but get mired in Religious Dogma versus Humanism around here, and is probably best just dropped altogether as it has absolutely no bearing on the topic at hand. Just as an observation however Francius, I've noted a tendency on your part to dictate forms of behaviour and such to others... generally that's considered at the very least quite rude. Or is your sense of etiquette and protocol so unerringly infallible that we should all bow down and comply with your way of doing things? Names are considerably more fluid in the United States, if you were not aware of that, and please do note that I specifically mentioned variations in reference to the name Francis up there. Frances, Francine, Francis... all variants of the same name. If you're going to argue semantics about what the actual root of that name is, then find someone else to argue with. It is a trivial detail that does not matter in the slightest unless you're a linguist, since you get the point well enough to hold a conversation on the matter. You seem to have a habit of delving into trivial matters while avoiding the actual meat of the topic, Dark Wizard's posts in particular. I would suggest getting back on topic and addressing those posts if you wish to maintain any credibility in this discussion.
Dark Wizard 03-30-07, 07:38 PM	Does anyone remembered any of the Kara-Tur novel title because I have not seen any one of them. I know they did some novel character stats in the old Hall of Heroes book. But novels? :noway: The characters in Hall of Heroes belonged to the canceled series. The only published Kara-Tur related novels that I am aware of is the Empires Trilogy (Horselords, Dragonwall, Crusade). Though I guess you could technically say only the middle novel of the series dealt with Kara-Tur proper.
Ranger REG 03-30-07, 09:19 PM	The characters in Hall of Heroes belonged to the canceled series. The only published Kara-Tur related novels that I am aware of is the Empires Trilogy (Horselords, Dragonwall, Crusade). Though I guess you could technically say only the middle novel of the series dealt with Kara-Tur proper. While the second volume did spotlight Kara-Tur (and the third and final volume did spotlight Faerun), it's more of a Horde-labeled novel series (to promote The Horde boxed set, featuring the Hordelands). I was hoping that the canceled series can be revived.
GothicDan 03-30-07, 09:21 PM	Homosexuality is still pretty frowned upon in general in America. But other than in certain areas of Europe (Italy and probably Germany - not sure, but I'll make a wager) it isn't nearly as immediately seen as distasteful. Speaking as a gay male (not metrosexual, kthnx - though I do like being clean and the like) who has spoken to many, many other gay males from both America and Europe, I think I probably have one of the best opinions on this topic (though not THE best, of course; none of us have that). EDIT: I didn't realize he had left. Doh. It was really interesting seeing someone who could give XUN a run for his money in the condescending, hypocritical idiot category.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-30-07, 09:40 PM	Homosexuality is still pretty frowned upon in general in America. But other than in certain areas of Europe (Italy and probably Germany - not sure, but I'll make a wager) it isn't nearly as immediately seen as distasteful. Well, our capital's mayor is gay, the head of one of our political parties is gay, we have gay actors, talkshow hosts, all of them in the open and okay with it - as is the rest of us. It's really not an issue here. I'm not sure about Italy, though ;) I didn't realize he had left. Doh. It was really interesting seeing someone who could give XUN a run for his money in the condescending, hypocritical idiot category. You don't know the half of it *g* DB
Dark Wizard 03-30-07, 09:41 PM	I was hoping that the canceled series can be revived. From reading the bits in Hall of Heroes, the characters and the premise of the story didn't have much traction for me. Though I did like Dragonwall.
GothicDan 03-30-07, 09:47 PM	Well, our capital's mayor is gay, the head of one of our political parties is gay, we have gay actors, talkshow hosts, all of them in the open and okay with it - as is the rest of us. It's really not an issue here. I'm not sure about Italy, though I'm moving to Germany!
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-30-07, 09:49 PM	I'm moving to Germany! But don't tell anyone else! We don't have enough jobs as it is! :D DB
GothicDan 03-30-07, 10:04 PM	I thought the birthrate among Germans was seriously dropping in the next few years? ... That'd explain all of the gays. Hm. Why didn't I make that connection earlier?
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-30-07, 10:38 PM	Our economy doesn't get going, the "locust capitalism" is eating us alive, high unemployment and 12% foreigners - it's not the gays' fault ;) DB
Lord Karsus 03-30-07, 10:58 PM	EDIT: I didn't realize he had left. Doh. It was really interesting seeing someone who could give XUN a run for his money in the condescending, hypocritical idiot category. -I think I'd prefer Xun. At least he's comical at times. -As for those Kara-Tur novels. The novel The Yellow Silk partially takes place in Shou Lung (in flashbacks). And, I believe that the sequel, a short story in Realms of Dragons featuring the same characters takes place in either Kara-Tur, or the Hordelands.
Old Sage 03-31-07, 12:17 AM	Indeed, as I said, and long before this particular thread become a haven for a selection of ill-conceived comments... Given WotC's "Realms-centric" focus over the core publishing period of 3e FR, it seems unlikely that Kara-Tur will feature prominently in the Realmslore. For the most part, it seems like its being left to future DRAGON articles and the odd occasional references in sourcebooks and novel to carry forward any lore about Kara-Tur -- such as The Yellow Silk. Elements of Kara-Tur received a 3e update back in Jan. 04, in DRAGON #315. And a couple of regions in Kara-Tur also received a brief nod in "The Horde" article of DRAGON #349 and its associated PDF supplement from paizo.com:- http://paizo.com/dragonissues/349/DR349_Supplement.pdf
Francius 03-31-07, 08:49 PM	100% wrong.Francis is an ambiguous name, and both men and women share it. Francine is a completely different name, as is Frank. Francius (my user name) is derived from Franciscus, a name of latin origin that means "Man from France".It is not sexual ambiguous at all. My real name is Francesco and they call me Franco which is a nickname(short-form) of my full name. Both names derive from Franciscus too, and both are of masculine gender only. Francis is just the english version, and since in its english version -and only in it- the name is used for both genders, men usually go on and take the name of FRANK, which is a short form of Francis and only of masculine gender. However, Francis is not my real name nor my user's name.Can't you spell correctly what you read? Francesco, Franco, Frank and Francine all derive from Franciscus and all are the same names. It's funny how you call other people wrong when you 're clearly one who does not have exact clues about what he's talking.
Francius 03-31-07, 08:50 PM	To Lord Karsus: Truly, what a big coward you are. I looked today for your private message and yet none was there to be found after 2 whole days.Guess what? You answered me by posting where I had presumably told you that I wouldn't talk no more. You went on and throwed a heavy insult to us European men based off nothing concrete and just because your mind felt like that way; then you have the guts to say it was I who insulted you before that. How did I insult you? By telling you that you have to sharpen your percepion skills?Can the two insults even be compared? Did that justify you of posting what you did? Then I invited you to take this discussion outside since it's clear you went on the personal road (like you admitted) and your arguments have nothing to do anymore with the discussion on these boards. I told you to take this outside and what did you do?You chickened out. I told you to answer me with a private message and what did you do?You chickened out. Either you can't read or you're just a coward without a neck. This time you can't say I don't have concrete facts to back up my statement - that I say you're a caitiff acting coward. Well, you know the saying. I don’t recall it word for word, but it goes a little something like, “Only the insecure react with anger.” Something like that. Another saying goes.. let's see: only cowards avoid direct confrontation and hide behind screens and anonimity... I had no factual evidence to back up what I said, just like you have no factual evidence that suggests that the general masses are demanding new Maztica products. Get it? Should I type that slower for you? You clearly lack perception skills. You're trying to say that you threw in the discussion a heavy generic insult of that kind with no actual evidence, just because you think I didn't have an actual evidence on another subject? Can the two things even be compared? Don't you think I intended it to be? If I didn't, don't you think I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place? I know you inteded to be. That's why I told you that this matter had to go outside of this forum.Yet you chickened out like a coward. When did I say that I was? That's why I told you that this matter had to go outside of this forum.Yet you chickened out like a coward. Not really to change the discussion route. Like I said, I just didn’t feel like taking the high road anymore, so I decided to sling mud too. That's why I told you that this matter had to go outside of this forum.Yet you chickened out like a coward. I know I know. my sense of humor is really amazing. And your dastardly behavior is even worse. I’m not acting like a coward. You asked me if I wanted to see what European men were made out of, which viewed through the lens of the conversation that was at hand, sounded like an activity that I do not engage in. Coward LordKarsus. Coward. Coward. Coward. You did, genius. You told me I should come to Europe. Again, you didn't understand a single virgule, ace. That was an invitation to take this outside of the forum. I went on and explained it to you. I don’t spit in the wind. What kind of person does? *You* do it coward. Homosexuals do not adopt the Metrosexual lifestyle. Heterosexuals adopt it. That’s the entire point of the…”movement”. I suggest you look it up, if you don’t know what it is. You seem to know alot about words involving men and the term -sexual in the end. Homosexuals are the first ones to adopt every silly lifestyle that's imported here in Europe because (exactly like women) their only concern is being "alla moda".It's good that they are only few in our continent though. No, I feel satisfied when I insult people who insult me (and others whom I get along with well enough). I don’t act, I react, in situations such as these. In other words, I don’t insult other people until I am insulted myself. You see, I have a reputation, and respect from others to upkeep. Who,you? Nice reputation you have. When you can't hold your own in a discussion you start throwing in insults like it's for free. I don't think that the "respect" you presume to have from others will last long after you've presented this forum with your real self. You're rude, coward and of ambiguous behavior for a man. What's there to respect? As long as they don’t bother me with it, then why not? I don’t appreciate the overly flamboyant, “shove-it-down-your-throat” homosexuals, but other than that, they are free to do what they want in the privacy of their own time. Who am I (or you, or anyone else) to condemn someone else for something they do in their own private time that does not hurt me, or anyone else? You’re from Rome, you are a Catholic (I am presuming), so what happened to that idea of tolerance that Jesus taught? Yes I am catholic and I too don't have a concern with what homosexuals do in their private. But that doesn't mean I accept them or that I agree with the idea of what they do. All people are allowed to behave as they like.It's normal. What it's not normal though,is insulting other persons for no valid reason and then avoiding personal confrotation with them. That is not how real men act. PS.Although Jesus does not condemn homosexuals, the bible says that a man shall not have sexual relations with another man.Homosexuals are wrong in what they do (according to the bible and to those who see it so) but christianism prays for them and leaves them be. Well, that is the ultimate insult to a manly man like you, is it not? What could you know? You're not acting like a real man. Who is hiding? You post things, and I answer them. If anything, you are hiding, because Dark Wizard has posted a whole bunch of things negating virtually everything you have said, and you haven’t said anything in reponse. I don't have the time to answer to everybody since I work.It's not just darkWizard.Other 5 posters did post questions to me too,yet I didn't answer them in addition.I am not a student anymore.I had more time back then but that's not the case as of now. This is just arguing over opinions over what?A fantasy game?Only a fool and a nothing-doer person would put that before his work. Besides, you're the one hiding from a personal confrotation to which I challenged you.It seems that you feel safer to post on this forum about an argument that bears no relevance with the topic and for something that it's clearly a mistake of yours. Dark Wizard just kept it on topic and the things went ok even if we did not agree. Are you afraid of taking this outside the forum? Our dispute bears no relevance with what people discuss here. Alright.Good bye Francius. (note:Francius corrected Karsus' wrong spelling) Goodbye Karsus, who has an ambiguous behavior for a man and an even worse caitiff tendency. If you intend to respond me send me a private message - act like a man for a change.
Lord Karsus 03-31-07, 08:58 PM	-You do realize that you are barely even a blip on my radar screen, and I have more intellectual persuits to turn to, rather than argue with a random blockhead on the internet. -Oh yeah, you do realize that any credibility you once had on these boards is gone, right? :rolleyes: -By the way, this is my metaphorical house, and I make the rules, not you. Once 7,000+ posts and respect by your peers you have, dictate terms to me you can. But, until then, like I said...
Alac Luin 03-31-07, 09:40 PM	Francesco, Franco, Frank and Francine all derive from Franciscus and all are the same names. Franciscus itself derived from Francus, a Germanic word for the Gauls, which came to be known as the Franks. Of interest, the Romans considered the Fanks simple and artless people.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-31-07, 10:16 PM	I don't have the time to answer to everybody since I work.It's not just darkWizard.Other 5 posters did post questions to me too,yet I didn't answer them in addition.I am not a student anymore.I had more time back then but that's not the case as of now. Good thing it's Sunday. Maybe today you'll find the decency to post something along the lines of, "I don't have any more arguments to back up my claim. Dark Wizard, you're right, Maztica isn't likely to return anytime soon." It would be only fair after all the trouble he took to compile quotes, examples and links for you. DB
Karsus the Mad 03-31-07, 10:24 PM	Maybe you two (LK and Francius) could, oh, I don't know...ignore eachother, hmmmm?:whatsthis
BrennonGoldeye 03-31-07, 10:29 PM	:plotting:
Lord Karsus 03-31-07, 10:45 PM	Maybe you two (LK and Francius) could, oh, I don't know...ignore eachother, hmmmm?:whatsthis -Unfortunatley, the mortal vessel I am currently inhabiting has Italian blood in it, so I get hotheaded from time to time. I'd rather it not, but hey, there's nothing I can really do about it. Asides, I ended the "conversation". Good thing it's Sunday. Maybe today you'll find the decency to post something along the lines of, "I don't have any more arguments to back up my claim. Dark Wizard, you're right, Maztica isn't likely to return anytime soon." It would be only fair after all the trouble he took to compile quotes, examples and links for you. DB -What do you think the likelihood of that happening is? I mentioned that before, and still, nothing. :rolleyes:
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-31-07, 11:03 PM	Estimated likelihood: 0,02%. But at least I've tried ;) DB
GothicDan 04-01-07, 02:54 AM	Homosexuals are the first ones to adopt every silly lifestyle that's imported here in Europe because (exactly like women) their only concern is being "alla moda".It's good that they are only few in our continent though. Excuse me?
Karsus the Mad 04-01-07, 03:59 AM	Estimated likelihood: 0,02%. But at least I've tried DB I stopped counting around 19 flames in the last post, at least 6 in the one before. I haven't garnered the energy to attempt counting 4 entire pages worth, but I'd make a gander of at least 50ish or so. I'd add an extra 0 to that estimate. Excuse me? Funny how he's the one that feels insulted, isn't it? Anyway, I have a question about Maztica: a serious question at that:embarrass and even further, a question that is actually about the setting:eek: . How does pluma magic work?
GothicDan 04-01-07, 04:02 AM	I almost said some very nasty, stereotypical things about Italians in response to that.
Karsus the Mad 04-01-07, 04:16 AM	I almost said some very nasty, stereotypical things about Italians in response to that. Not worth it imho. This thread'll be locked, warnings will be issued, maybe a ban . Hopefully my question about pluma magic will get answered before then. *crosses fingers*
GothicDan 04-01-07, 04:18 AM	It works via... MAGIC! I'm going to bed now. Past 4 am!
Karsus the Mad 04-01-07, 04:28 AM	It works via... MAGIC! How insightful:D . I'd never have guessed:embarrass I'm going to bed now. Past 4 am! 11:30am here. Been up since 4:30am yesterday. Not even tired yet, which is prolly due to the gross amounts of expresso intake mixed with an urge for etching a new staff casing. G'night over the puddle! G'night to you to LK:zzz:, and might as well say nighty night to everyone else in that timezone:whatsthis