Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pystian 05-11-04, 04:34 AM	From the SRD on Outsiders: "Traits... Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry..." Meaning that theoretically taking the Otherworldly feat gives you proficiency with all simple and martial weapons? That's not how I'd rule in my games, I was just curious if I was reading what was official correctly. That, plus Darkvision, immunity to some spells, and +2 to Diplomacy in certain conditions would make a pretty darn powerful feat.
Chronomage 05-11-04, 04:52 AM	Define SRD so I can post a reply, please. Brain not working.
Pystian 05-11-04, 06:12 AM	System Reference Document. It has all the stuff WotC has published but other companies are allowed to use. What I meant was, this is (some of) what I found when I looked for the information on Outsiders in the System Reference Document.
Chronomage 05-11-04, 07:38 AM	Might note that it's native outsider, rather than outsider. Doesn't sound over the top powerful, at least in a game with a certain loose balance (not a bad thing necessarily). But doesn't it also say outsiders gain fighter base attack bonus, 8+ skill points, all favored saves and the like? Or maybe you think that that is only applicable for HD gained from outsider, rather than pure class level stuff. In that case so might the weapon profs and such. At least, that's my reasoning. Usually when I read feats like this, I assume I only get what is specifically listed with the feat, and nothing more. Like for instance, an animal with the fiendish template becomes a magical creature with a fighter BAB and all this other stuff. In that case it specifically counters the idea of gaining the rest saying that all such things as BAB, saves, and such go unchanged. Actually, that example just ran in a circle, didn't it? I hate insomnia. Still my opinion remains, all you would seem to get is 60 ft. darkvision, a +2 diplomacy, and that's it. Maybe your immune to charm person but I dunno.
Pystian 05-11-04, 08:13 AM	For the sake of clarity: Native Subtype: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep. Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. Features: An outsider has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. —Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. The features are all HD related (and none of the races that qualify for the feat have racial HD), so just focus on the traits. I'm not saying it should, I'm just saying it seems as though officially this could give some Elves and Deep Imaskari armor and weapon proficiencies. Chronomage, thank you for responding and sharing your input.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 08:33 AM	Yes, technically. I do not, however, think that was the game designers intent.
WotC_RichBaker 05-11-04, 12:52 PM	All the feat does is change the name of your type from humanoid to outsider. Nothing else gets recalculated. That doesn't seem like much, but any spell that ends in "person" or affects humanoids only no longer affects you. In general, if a template changes your type, you don't get to go back and recalculate BAB, saves, skills, etc., that you derived from class levels. Originally posted by Pystian From the SRD on Outsiders: "Traits... Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry..." Meaning that theoretically taking the Otherworldly feat gives you proficiency with all simple and martial weapons? That's not how I'd rule in my games, I was just curious if I was reading what was official correctly. That, plus Darkvision, immunity to some spells, and +2 to Diplomacy in certain conditions would make a pretty darn powerful feat.
Pystian 05-11-04, 01:07 PM	Oh what, you think just because you wrote the book... Kidding. Thanks Mr. Baker.
Chronomage 05-11-04, 05:49 PM	I'd like to point out for personal gratuity and arrogance, that Baker said pretty much what I said. DAMN I'm good! :D
Pystian 05-12-04, 03:03 AM	Yeah, except I bet he knew what the SRD was. ;) But seriously, kudos Chronomage.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-12-04, 07:47 AM	Becoming a Native Outsider means you get all the Traits of an Outsider, yes. Reading over the Planetouched entry in the Monster Manual and Monsters of Faerun is a good way to verify this. IMC, this includes all Martial Weapons, yes. Not giving this out makes the +1 ECL Planetouched races very underpowered IMO. IMC I have a Fire Genasi cleric PC wielding a Greatsword, and I don't think this is overpowered at all, as he never swings his sword anyway (hmm... dunno: flamestrike or greatsword swing with cleric BAB?) ;)
sidekick 05-13-04, 09:06 PM	PKD, while i might agree with you over planetouched characters (i'll have to think it over for a while), I don't think that the Otherwordly feat gives the PC all martial and simple weapon profs - that's the domain of the Militia Feat. All it gives is the bonuses that are described in the book. Just like Richie said! Anyway, that fact about planetouched is a good point PDK. I guess the only problem is what the difference between native outsiders and ousiders is. Hopefully Mr. Baker will raed this thread again and possibly some up with a suggestion.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-14-04, 06:07 PM	Yes, I agree that the feat is unbalanced as written (why Militia if you can get the same, PLUS Darkvision and +2 to Diplomacy), but the rules are clear in regards to becoming a Native Outsider. I think the feat needs an errata specifically saying that "You do not gain the martial weapon proficiencies normally granted to Outsiders with the Native subtype."
DwarvenBrew 05-15-04, 06:40 PM	Remember that Outsiders (Native) are different as characters than they are for monsters. Just use page 18 of the FRCS and the feat from PGtF and you'll have no confusion. However, if you look at the MM, Outsiders (Native) characters are different than they are as monsters (just look up Planetouched as characters in the MM and then compare them to the Glossary for Outsiders and Native Subtype in the back). So no martial weapon profs for characters, 8+ skill points, etc...
Pystian 05-17-04, 04:16 AM	For class mechanics you're absolutely right, but theoretically shouldn't racial HD be changed? Perhaps not retroactively, but if you're still gaining them (UA paragon rules come to mind first, but I'm sure there are other ways), wouldn't those be Outsider HD now, and thus grant d8's, 8 skill points per level, etc.? Theoretically, you'd get simple and martial weapon proficiency then too, right?
Chronomage 05-17-04, 04:21 AM	The gods sent you here as a plague for us, didn't they? ;)
Purple Dragon Knight 05-17-04, 05:11 AM	Originally posted by Chronomage The gods sent you here as a plague for us, didn't they? ;) Awright... someone saw Troy this weekend, hmm? :rolleyes:
Chronomage 05-17-04, 06:17 AM	Altogether now...:embarrass ...:D
Another Gnome 05-17-04, 07:06 AM	However, if you look at the MM, Outsiders (Native) characters are different than they are as monsters (just look up Planetouched as characters in the MM and then compare them to the Glossary for Outsiders and Native Subtype in the back). So no martial weapon profs for characters, 8+ skill points, etc... I agree. With creatures who only have class levels instead of racial HD (as is the case with most humanoids and planetouched creatures), the weapon and armor proficiencies, skill points, and hit dice of the outsider level are replaced by the class levels(s). Consequently, the outsider HD-based traits and features are not received when namely becoming an outsider via feats, prestige classes, or temporarily with spells either. But, far be it from me to question those who insist on getting cheap bonuses based on obscure ruling. At any rate, WotC really should make some absolute ruling on these things. (Skip Williams is trying to in his recent article on how polymorphing works, but unfortunately his choice of words seems to result in more loopholes being opened than closed, at least according to some people. I haven't yet had a look myself.) [Edit: Silly me, I didn't notice Mr. Baker's post earlier.]
Chronomage 05-17-04, 07:17 AM	I agree completely, AnotherGnome. Basically this question has been answered, and it is now being argued that the answer doesn't answer at all. Pystian is just looking for any sign that he can take the proficiencies and feel legit. The bad news he can, but everyone else on the Freakin Earth will disagree. LAST TIME: You only get it if it's specifically mentioned in the feat itself. I.E. it aint frickin there.
WizO_BigSister 05-17-04, 10:19 AM	Play nice people :) Personal comments aren't a good thing. You can say what you want about a question or a post but you CAN'T start ascribing motives to the person who wrote it ... especially if they are less than complimentary. p.s. The gods aren't allowed to plague people here ... I'm the only one allowed to do that :devil: BWAHAHAHA!
Pystian 05-17-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Chronomage I agree completely, AnotherGnome. Basically this question has been answered, and it is now being argued that the answer doesn't answer at all. Pystian is just looking for any sign that he can take the proficiencies and feel legit. The bad news he can, but everyone else on the Freakin Earth will disagree. LAST TIME: You only get it if it's specifically mentioned in the feat itself. I.E. it aint frickin there. Chronomage, I think there has been a misunderstanding. As mentioned in my first post on the subject (which is consequently the first post in this thread), regardless of what is official, in the games I'm participating in (either as player or DM) Otherwordly will not grant weapon or armor proficiencies. The conclusions of the discussion we are currently engaged in will have no impact on my game(s). That said, I can see how it would seem that I was trying to get the most out of a feat for one of my characters.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-17-04, 04:10 PM	I don't care if people try to imply or straight out say that I'm trying to milk Otherworldly until it hurts: I sure am. (Note: I DM a campaign where no one is using this feat right now, but this isn't the point... if someone would take it, I would allow martial weapons) The Native subtype can only be applied to Outsiders, and all Outsiders have the following traits (none of which are HD-based, unlike some people have vaguely tried to enunciate previously...), as per the SRD: Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. —Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. Conclusions: all Outsiders, even Native ones, GET all simple and martial weapons. They may or may not get armor and shield profiencies (in the case of Otherworldly, no, as it is a feat that can be applied to any base creature; but Genasi get the armor proficiencies listed for them under their Monsters of Faerun entry). Now, unless this is errated, Otherworldly clearly gives a PC all simple and martial weapons. I don't know how anyone could interpret this otherwise...
Chronomage 05-17-04, 06:42 PM	Originally posted by Pystian Chronomage, I think there has been a misunderstanding. As mentioned in my first post on the subject (which is consequently the first post in this thread), regardless of what is official, in the games I'm participating in (either as player or DM) Otherwordly will not grant weapon or armor proficiencies. The conclusions of the discussion we are currently engaged in will have no impact on my game(s). That said, I can see how it would seem that I was trying to get the most out of a feat for one of my characters. No worries and I apologize for my own seeming attitude. Meant the post to be more jocular ribbing than anything else. Shame on me for posting after 2 am.
Another Gnome 05-18-04, 01:56 AM	Conclusions: all Outsiders, even Native ones, GET all simple and martial weapons. They may or may not get armor and shield profiencies (in the case of Otherworldly, no, as it is a feat that can be applied to any base creature; but Genasi get the armor proficiencies listed for them under their Monsters of Faerun entry). Fact: humanoids trade their HD along with skill points and proficiencies to class features when they have only 1 humanoid HD. Fact: aasimars and tieflings trade their outsider HD to class levels. Implication: aasimars and tieflings also trade their racial skill points and proficiencies to class features even when it does not specifically say that in their racial description or the list of outsider traits and features. It's only an implication, but at least I consider it a very strong one. Now, unless this is errated, Otherworldly clearly gives a PC all simple and martial weapons. I don't know how anyone could interpret this otherwise... Well, Richard Baker should have enough authority to tell straight up what the feat does and what it does not.
Pystian 05-18-04, 04:28 AM	We seem to agree on what the feat technically does, and Mr. Baker has clarified what the intent of the feat was and how it should be "fixed" (Weapon and armor proficiencies granted by type are only granted to the members of the type with racial HD). Now everyone is just left to decide for themselves what works best in their game. Or is there something else left to debate about Otherworldly?
Purple Dragon Knight 05-18-04, 02:20 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Conclusions: all Outsiders, even Native ones, GET all simple and martial weapons. They may or may not get armor and shield profiencies (in the case of Otherworldly, no, as it is a feat that can be applied to any base creature; but Genasi get the armor proficiencies listed for them under their Monsters of Faerun entry). Fact: humanoids trade their HD along with skill points and proficiencies to class features when they have only 1 humanoid HD. Fact: aasimars and tieflings trade their outsider HD to class levels. Implication: aasimars and tieflings also trade their racial skill points and proficiencies to class features even when it does not specifically say that in their racial description or the list of outsider traits and features. It's only an implication, but at least I consider it a very strong one. Now, unless this is errated, Otherworldly clearly gives a PC all simple and martial weapons. I don't know how anyone could interpret this otherwise... Well, Richard Baker should have enough authority to tell straight up what the feat does and what it does not. Fact: genasi, aasimars and tieflings trade their outsider features to class levels, but retain all the TRAITS of an outsider, unless otherwise noted in the creature's entry. Case in point: Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. Features: An outsider has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. —Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Another Gnome 05-18-04, 03:30 PM	I'll just rephrase it then: Humanoids trade everything except their basic physical functions of eating, sleeping, and breathing. It doesn't explicitly say how every other creature type than a humanoid works when their racial HD is being replaced by class abilities only. The problem is that it asks a question, it doesn't answer it. The 1 HD planetouched trade their racial level to a class level like 1 HD humanoids do, so why don't they also trade their racial proficiencies like humans do? I would be happy to shut up if it did say they get those proficiencies in the racial entries for the planetouched - who are major playable races - but not a single character description or any other source featuring planetouched I've seen has suggested that - save the MM entry which, as I see it, is a question and not an answer. It's not a matter of principle at stake here, I only want to know for sure how it should be as per the designers' intent.
Pystian 05-18-04, 04:59 PM	Mr. Baker posts HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236537) on what his intent was. I hope that's good enough. Happy gaming.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-18-04, 08:02 PM	Mr. Baker's reply, while very clear and concise, does not explain why some races (like elves) have built-in weapon proficiencies though... You've summed it up pretty well. Got 0 racial HD? Everything is determined by your class choice: HD, AB, saves, skill points, weapon and armor proficiency. Got at least 1 racial HD? You get outsider HD, AB, etc., figured only for the number of racial HD you have. If this is the official word, then my argument is soundly defeated. However it doesn't stop me from using the strict definition of Outsider in my own campaign, because as a DM, I judge the +1 ECL very costly for what you get (in the case of genasi especially).
Oberoni 05-18-04, 10:18 PM	Ok, I'm putting my foot down. Are we going to argue the RAW, or are we going to argue feelings and unofficial clarifications? Because under the RAW, this really is quite clear. Weapon proficiency is a trait of Outsiders. This is absolutely, positively no different than immunity to mind-affecting effects being a trait of Constructs, immunity to sleep beng a trait of Dragons, or Plants being immune to critical hits. If this were just a topic like "are all Undead immune to critical hits" or something, this wouldn't even be a discussion. Of course they are, it says so right in the Monster Manual. But this is about weapon proficiencies, so suddenly everyone is making up rules about how "being an outsider only gets you what is described on page 41 of the PGtF." That's bull. If I want to figure out what being an outsider means, exactly, I can totally just flip to the part of the core rulebooks dedicated to explaining Outsiders. That's page 313 of the Monster Manual. So if Richard Baker says that Otherworldly doesn't grant weapon proficiencies--that's fine. It's a nice houserule. It's also obviously his intent that Otherworldly doesn't grant weapon proficiencies. However, by the RAW, it does do exactly that.
Chronomage 05-19-04, 12:02 AM	The question has been answered. There are those that accept it, and those that don't, preferring to make their own houserules as the poster above me. I believe the thread can be shut down now. And WizO's around? Found a better way to post my message.
Oberoni 05-19-04, 04:13 AM	Smarmy's something you should leave to the professionals, kid. I'm not sure you realize what a houserule is, anyways. You see--I'm actually the one using the rules as written, and you're the one using message board posts as some sort of primary source. As I said before, if you want to rule that Otherworldly doesn't grant martial weapon profiency, that's fine--it's how the designer of the freakin' feat wants it to be. However--and this is the part I think I lost you--in the official rules, that ain't how it goes down. Unless, of course, someone has some some sort of reference that I haven't found yet. If that's the case, I'm all, um, eyes. I mean, if there's a passage like this from the Monster Manual or official errata or something that I missed: "Some creature types grant weapon proficiencies as one of their traits. This trait only applies to creatures that have racial Hit Dice of the appropriate creature type." That's an example of what I'm looking for.
Chronomage 05-19-04, 05:00 AM	Uh huh *nods, while looking for the best vein to cut to kill the thread*
Another Gnome 05-19-04, 11:28 AM	"Some creature types grant weapon proficiencies as one of their traits. This trait only applies to creatures that have racial Hit Dice of the appropriate creature type." That's an example of what I'm looking for. Exactly what I'm looking for as well, only from different reasons. It is clearly not there, but I see no reason why it should not be there. Regardless, there's no need for calling people's opinions bull just becuse said people choose not to walk the hyper-literalists' way. [Ah... so Rich confirmed his take on it to apply to proficiencies as well. I'm happy now.]
Oberoni 05-19-04, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Exactly what I'm looking for as well, only from different reasons. It is clearly not there, but I see no reason why it should not be there. But if it ain't there, it ain't there. I'm just looking for what is there. Regardless, there's no need for calling people's opinions bull just becuse said people choose not to walk the hyper-literalists' way. 1. No, I'm calling people saying stuff like "an outsider is only what is on page 41 of the PGtF" bull, because it is. That is to say--it's not what's in the rules. When you try to pass off something not in the rules as something that is in the rules, you are bulling me. 2. Hyper-literalist? No, nuh-uh. Just because I'm asking for some sort of proof in the RAW doesn't mean I'm some sort of freak hyperliteralist or whatever. Up until Mr. Baker's response on this thread, I had no idea whatsoever that some type traits are tied to just being of the type, and some are tied to having racial HD of the type. None. It's a rule that came out of nowhere--or at least, as far as I can tell. So, quite simply, I just asked if there was some part of the rules as written I missed that really did specify what racial traits apply when. I'm still looking for it.
Another Gnome 05-20-04, 05:12 PM	Up until Mr. Baker's response on this thread, I had no idea whatsoever that some type traits are tied to just being of the type, and some are tied to having racial HD of the type. None. It's a rule that came out of nowhere--or at least, as far as I can tell. The concept of creature HD is equal to class level these days, which is reason enough to assume that certain functions of creature type are somehow related to that HD in particular and not just the "race" of a creature. It's not written anywhere in the rules, but it's not an interpretion (or house rule, if you prefer) that came out of nowhere either.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-20-04, 11:47 PM	Hmm... I was almost ready to settle for Mr. Baker's ruling (i.e. no HD = no features and no traits), but after reading the Monster Manual more carefully, I stumbled upon something interesting when I checked the humanoid type (i.e. humans, dwarves, elves, etc.). Here it goes: Traits: A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep. Therefore, I am now absolutely certain that all Outsiders and Native Outsiders are proficient with all martial weapon... Oversight from the designers when they created Otherworldly? perhaps... but the rules are crystal clear.
Sarta 05-21-04, 04:25 AM	Are you guys going to want some sort of credit when these references are all added to the errata? Rich's response seemed really clear as to what was intended. Sarta
Purple Dragon Knight 05-21-04, 06:44 AM	Originally posted by Sarta Are you guys going to want some sort of credit when these references are all added to the errata? Rich's response seemed really clear as to what was intended. Sarta Sure, I wouldn't say no if someone would ask to write my name as some sort of playtest credit or something like that... I'm not expecting anything, but if I'm asked, why not? It would be cool to see that my involvement in these boards had an effect on the game! Why, are you really asking? :) [innocent-looking mode off] :D
Another Gnome 05-22-04, 06:21 AM	Oversight from the designers when they created Otherworldly? perhaps... but the rules are crystal clear. Perhaps it was an oversight with the Monster Manual. Had they noted that the racial HD, which is responsible for skills and weapon/armor proficiencies for humanoids, is the source of skills and weapon/armor proficiencies for all other creature types as well, the rules would still be crystal clear and they'd actually work as they're supposed to. :P
Purple Dragon Knight 05-22-04, 06:28 AM	Another Gnome: I think you're trying to dig a little too deep on this one... :P I usually agree with you, but now you are questioning the whole 3.5 system in the defense of one flawed feat? come on now! :D
Pystian 05-23-04, 12:27 PM	I wouldn't say making armor and weapon proficiencies based on type only granted to those with racial HD really questioning the whole 3.5 system.