Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jamesnero 04-20-07, 11:42 AM	Ladies and Gentlemen I've come seeking imput from those hopefuly with more experience than myself. At the very least the boards will offer me a different perspective and hopefuly insight. Im currently playing a paladin of mystra and while I enjoy it a great deal I was looking for a code of conduct (CoC) that better reflected mystra's doctrine. So I wrote one. Any advice anyone is willing to give would be much appreciated. Also constructive criticism is both invited and encouraged. Sources: Champions of Valor, FRCS, PHB, Magic of Faerun, book of exalted deeds. Know that the code is broken into three distinct parts knows as the three duties. They are as follows, the duty to the lady, the duty to the people and finally the duty to the self. Each one references a specific piece of a paladin’s life his place in religion, his place in the world and himself. To excel at these three duties is to reach the pinnacle of the faith. The Duty to the Lady Know that as Paladins we do not preach, leave the sermons to the priests. However this is not an excuse for ignorance if the people should come with questions be ready to answer to purge ignorance is sacred to the lady. Keep always the Lady close to your heart worship no where else save at a temple of her devotion. Should one not be present then go alone into the wilderness and pray fear not the lady shall hear your prayers. Though you may not worship at the temple of another god it is proper to show respect for those that deserve it give respect to the altars of the allies of the faith and bring fire and sword to its enemies. Love magic in its myriad forms not that it is a gift from the lady and cherish it as such. Should you come upon a spell caster and he shows devotion to the lady and respect for her gifts give your hand in friendship first know that his heart is not black. Should you come across a spell caster and he shows no devotion to the lady and mocks her gifts there is a two fold path. Should his heart be black show him your weapon so that he knows it well. Should you find no stain upon his heart then if he be willing speak with him about the Lady and her virtues perhaps knowledge shall turn his path to her. Know however that should he be deaf to your words leave him upon his path. Duty to the People Let your blade defend the weak and your strong hands up lift the helpless. Never shirk your fight against evil for in that is your calling. Never forget why you fight not for gold or adoration but to defend those that cannot defend themselves. It is the duty of a paladin to free the enslaved and exonerate the falsely accused. Should you come upon the poor and they ask your assistance ask nothing return for service is its own reward. Should you come upon a child who shows aptitude for the art guide him to the lady’s embrace. These young ones are blessed with the gifts of the lady it is best to allow them to develop for to deny the gifts of the lady is the greatest of crimes. Duty to the self A paladin devoted to the lady cannot lie he must be both forthright and honest in all things. The truth is not a thing in pieces it is whole so when you speak the truth let it remain whole. Always conduct thyself with honor and respect so that others may learn from your example. Always remain humble know that whatever power you gain it is of the lady, and whatever strength you have it is the lady’s strength. Humility is strength greater than any. Author's note: I hope my flowery language doesnt lead to confusion. When I say "show him your weapon so that he knows it well" I really mean "beat his face in" it didnt seem to flow like the first so I changed it.
TheFatLazyGuy 04-20-07, 01:56 PM	This looks good, no complaints from me, but I'm not the best person to ask seeing as I have only ever played zero paladins. Actually one complaint, it should be more plain and less flowery, for flowery will just give us more excusese to question the paladins limp wrist.
The Ubbergeek 04-20-07, 02:00 PM	Maybe real men can talk without using a cart driver's language too and not be gay, hum? :rolleyes:
Stigger 04-20-07, 06:07 PM	Looks great. Might have to lift it from you for my home game one of these days really. :)
Dielzen 04-20-07, 09:32 PM	Very well done, tho I do have one minor complaint. It would seem, from reading the first section, that the code implicates any spellcaster of Mystran faith to be goodly, which is not the case.
Stigger 04-21-07, 01:34 AM	Didn't get that impression... hmm...
Dielzen 04-21-07, 07:38 AM	Read the 3rd para of Duty to the Lady. We have: Devoted to Mystra & respects her gifts No devotion & mocks her gifts (blackhearted) No devotion & mocks her gifts (unstained) No paladin would, in their right mind, assume that anyone who is devoted to Mystra and respects her gifts is good. Even if the "devoted" line is an explicit designation of Cleric class, the one-step rule from NG allows for TN which, from time to time, a paladin will have opposition to their PoV, any may periodically come to see them as acting in an evil manner. edit: nm, I see a part of the sentence I missed before....not sure if that used to be there or not, so I'll assume I'm blind :)
jamesnero 04-21-07, 10:16 AM	damn flowery language sorry. When I make reference to if his heart is black I make reference to the paladin's use of detect evil. :angel:
Zandilar 04-24-07, 08:01 AM	Heya, Interesting stuff, but three things... Keep always the Lady close to your heart worship no where else save at a temple of her devotion. Should one not be present then go alone into the wilderness and pray fear not the lady shall hear your prayers. Though you may not worship at the temple of another god it is proper to show respect for those that deserve it give respect to the altars of the allies of the faith and bring fire and sword to its enemies. Temples are not always conveniant, and neither is the wilderness. What if you're in a city that has no temple to Mystra? Love magic in its myriad forms not that it is a gift from the lady and cherish it as such. Should you come upon a spell caster and he shows devotion to the lady and respect for her gifts give your hand in friendship first know that his heart is not black. Should you come across a spell caster and he shows no devotion to the lady and mocks her gifts there is a two fold path. Should his heart be black show him your weapon so that he knows it well. Should you find no stain upon his heart then if he be willing speak with him about the Lady and her virtues perhaps knowledge shall turn his path to her. Know however that should he be deaf to your words leave him upon his path. What is the definition of mocking? I think this should be strongly defined, or you're going to find paladins trying to convert other good aligned weave using spell casters from their deities (ie: a wizard who worships Tymora, or a sorcerer who worships Eldath), because they define "mocking her gifts" as meaning not being faithful to Mystra... if that makes sense? Should you come upon a child who shows aptitude for the art guide him to the lady’s embrace. These young ones are blessed with the gifts of the lady it is best to allow them to develop for to deny the gifts of the lady is the greatest of crimes. This is probably the best clause in the Code. I think you should expand on this, because spreading the use of magic is more than just turning young potential casters to Mystra. (Gifting needy/deserving people with magical items and the like springs to mind, and helping older people with latent magical talents to realise them fully.) I should also note, just because I'm not sure you realise it - Mystra is treated as both NG and LN with respect to who can be her cleric - so yes, you'll find faithful clerics of Mystra will "ping" a Mystran paladin's detect evil ability... Also her High Priest in Waterdeep is a LE necromancer/arcane devotee, I kid you not.
jamesnero 04-24-07, 01:07 PM	Meleghost Starseer pg 43 of the waterdeep book. Heres the kicker Mystra's faith according to faiths and pantheons allows for both paladins and blackguards. How the hell does that work??? How can a paladin justify serving a goddess who endorses evil and has evil clerics and blackguards at her command??? If you could answer that for me it be a great help. Zandilar you bring up some very good points and I appreciate your input very much. Temples are not always conveniant, and neither is the wilderness. What if you're in a city that has no temple to Mystra? Ill insert the line "or find an out of the way and quiet place to pray" that should handle that. What is the definition of mocking? I think this should be strongly defined, or you're going to find paladins trying to convert other good aligned weave using spell casters from their deities (ie: a wizard who worships Tymora, or a sorcerer who worships Eldath), because they define "mocking her gifts" as meaning not being faithful to Mystra... if that makes sense? I agree that will have to be better defined. I never intended for mocking to be equated with faith or lack there of in mystra. Ill make it a point to revise that. This is probably the best clause in the Code. I think you should expand on this, because spreading the use of magic is more than just turning young potential casters to Mystra. (Gifting needy/deserving people with magical items and the like springs to mind, and helping older people with latent magical talents to realise them fully.) I intend to happily expand this Im glad you liked it.
Stigger 04-24-07, 04:07 PM	Somehow I can't see Mystra welcoming in a blackguard, despite the alignments being compatible in a technical sense... nor can I see a blackguard really going for her either. Not really an issue, much less a problem, if its almost never even going to come up.
Derren S. 04-28-07, 11:52 AM	Somehow I can't see Mystra welcoming in a blackguard, despite the alignments being compatible in a technical sense... nor can I see a blackguard really going for her either. Not really an issue, much less a problem, if its almost never even going to come up. Blackguard or evil cleric. Thats nearly the same. Logically, the church of Mystra would a at a constant internal war till either the good or the evil clerics/paladins are destroyed. But as Mystra is "1337" she can have paladin and blackguards and nothing bad will happen. All hail Mmystra the supreme being of the FR universe.
Stigger 04-28-07, 01:09 PM	There are degrees of evil... blackguards tend to be rather on the actively evil side of the equation, whereas an evil cleric does not necessarily have to.
Zandilar 04-29-07, 02:16 AM	Heya, Somehow I can't see Mystra welcoming in a blackguard, despite the alignments being compatible in a technical sense... nor can I see a blackguard really going for her either. Not really an issue, much less a problem, if its almost never even going to come up. The way I interpret it is as follows... If you became a part of Mystra's clergy prior to the Time of Troubles, you must adhere to the requirement of being one step from LN. If you became a part of Mystra's clergy after the Time of Troubles, you must adhere to the requirement of being one step from NG. Mystra has never had blackguards (or antipaladins or anything that might be close to that sort of class), so I wouldn't allow a blackguard of Mystra. (IMHO Mystra has always had good tendancies, even when her alignments on paper have been written as CN (Mystryl) or LN (previous Mystra).)
Stigger 04-29-07, 07:08 AM	I always assumed she's allow the LN alignment regardeless... one less cleric who might go to Bane and the like can't be a bad thing if you put them to work for a semi-beneficial end. Redemption is part of good, and maybe if they stick with it long enough a change could occur sort of reasoning... besides, given her tendency to have wizards in the clergy, often in the place of full clerics, it makes even more sense. Having said that, my group took a look at the code you came up with there, and so far everyone likes the look of it so far, and we should be giving it a go to see how it works for our group soon. Looks good on paper, but haven't had a chance to put it to practice for our groups paladin yet, who's thankfully a Mystran. :)
Zandilar 04-29-07, 09:31 AM	Heya, I always assumed she's allow the LN alignment regardeless... one less cleric who might go to Bane and the like can't be a bad thing if you put them to work for a semi-beneficial end. Redemption is part of good, and maybe if they stick with it long enough a change could occur sort of reasoning... besides, given her tendency to have wizards in the clergy, often in the place of full clerics, it makes even more sense. That does make some sense. However, we haven't seen that happening, and Mystra isn't really allowed to push a "good" agenda despite her alignment (Ao wouldn't allow it) - so how she supposed to change the hearts and minds of her LE followers to something a little more good, I don't know. Two quotes from Faiths and Pantheons have some bearing on this, and lead me to the interpretation I came to on her clergy's alignment (and I'd require wizards/sorcerers who are filling in as clergy to adhere to it too): Faiths and Pantheons pg 50 The deity's actions over the past decade have only driven more worshipers, particularly evil wizards and sorcerers, into the arms of Shar. Faiths and Pantheons pg 51 While some of Mystra's clerics follow the teachings of the older, lawful neutral incarnation of the deity, most have changed their alignment in accordance with her current incarnation or have left the faith. Now I'm fairly sure the events mentioned in the former quote are regarding her actions during the novels Prince of Lies and Crucible: the Trial of Cyric the Mad... The interesting thing is that these two novels took place approximately 10 years after the Time of Troubles, and 6 years before the current game year (1374 DR)... When those novels were released, there was no Shadow Weave at all. The latter quote reveals that many clergy are either changing or leaving. I doubt very much that we will see too many new evil clergy of Mystra in the future, if any at all.
Stigger 04-29-07, 11:13 AM	Yet more fallout from the bad idea that was the Shadow Weave...
Wyrhm 04-29-07, 08:12 PM	Considering how many dieties she's been sharing her portfolio with, (Veshoon, Azuth et al) I thought the actual purpose of her Paladins (from what I could tell in Champion of valor as well as Pantheons) that they are meant to be the martial arm of the church, as well preserving Magic and it's use. "Liberating" magic from those who use it in an aggressivly evil manner seem to be targets as well. Don't ask me what that means becuase I honestly don't know. Some other uses seem to be recovering lost, stolen or newly created/discovered artifacts or other magic item of significant importance. Though I don't think they are going to strong arm your latest self cleaning broom, they might try to "acquire" your Weave Vortex. As for the general populace, I think they are more looking out for the magically oppressed or those Magic-users being oppressed or outright persecuted. Possibly even a Sorcerer recovery team wouldn't be out of bounds for such a paladin. After all, not all freshly minted sorcerers know what they are doing and some can go mad. As for losing clergy, keep in mind Azuth is more along the bent of formally trained Wizards, Mystra for the more intuitive Sorcerer. I view that it wasn't so much her behavior in general (becuase really, unless Mystra wishes it known, no one is going to be knowing anything of her actions) as it was the vibes she was passing through the church. The feel I get from the content of novels and game materiel, if you love the Art, you're gonna practice the Art, whether or not you pay lip service to Mystra or not. That still feeds her portfolio so it won't really matter. And even though Mystra cannot actively promote good or evil, she can still reward whom she wishes. That's also what you have followers for. They do what you cannot or will not do. I believe somewhere it is stated that Mystra is not allowed to prevent some one from accessing The Weave (It might just be dieties though). That does not forbid any of her followers from preventing some one else being able to use the weave via spell (anti-magic Aura, Dispel, or magical creatures) or sending them to an altogether different plane of existance (read: Death). Opinion: Lawful Good for Paladins of Mystra means following the rules set down by the Lady herself and obeying the wishes of the Church, while still looking to promote Magic as a force for good and a thing of beauty, not as a tool or a weapon to subjugate people. Positive reinforcement compared to a show of force or mind numbing mumbo jumbo. As is the nature of the gods, the more followers of your portfolio you can gather, the better. I'm sure Mystra would like 100x the amount of current Art users. Just so long as they don't try to take it from her.
McPoyo 05-04-07, 09:53 AM	I'd like to point out the Netherese and, specifically within the Netherese Empire, the city of Shade in relation to the shadow weave not existing prior to that...
KismetRose 05-04-07, 03:09 PM	Keep always the Lady close to your heart worship no where else save at a temple of her devotion. Given that Azuth has been a god of magic longer than the current incarnation of Mystra and that they are on good terms, it might not be out of line for her paladins to give obeisance at his temple. As far as I recall Kelemvor is also a close ally and since he governs rites to the dead, Mystra might allow her paladins to worship in his churches. I would also think about whether or not Mystra would allow worship in a temple of Corellon Larethian. Should you come upon a spell caster and he shows devotion to the lady and respect for her gifts give your hand in friendship first know that his heart is not black. Should you come across a spell caster and he shows no devotion to the lady and mocks her gifts there is a two fold path. Should his heart be black show him your weapon so that he knows it well. I would be careful with this if only because Mystra has evil followers; she is supposed to represent all sides of magical expression as made possible by the Weave. You might also want to consider adding another duty: the duty to protect the integrity of the Weave whenever it is threatened. There are bound to be magic users that are dealing damage to the Weave, by accident or on purpose, and not all of them will be followers of Shar. The Weave is so important to Faerun that it needs to be monitored, defended, and sometimes guarded depending on the situation. This could be an ideal purpose for her paladins, especially since paladins seem to range far and wide.