Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tyron 03-01-04, 02:01 PM	The red wizards hold slaves, torture people, do nasty rituals, oppressive their neighbours, sell drugs through their enclaves etc. And the worst thing most cities in Fearun tolerate this behaviour by allowing enclaves within their border's, only to increase their own coffins. My PC's couldn't stand this behaviour anymore: enough is enough, and started a war upon the red wizards. Beginning with destroying the enclave near Baldur's gate! I told them this a stupid thing to do? But you can't stop players who have Tyr as there patron deity and elves from silverymoon. But what am I to do next? :smirk:
Masakado 03-01-04, 02:15 PM	The enclave is under the protection of Baldur's Gate. If it were me, I'd have the PC's rounded up by the Flaming Fist to face charges. The Red Wizards may be evil, but most likely they didn't do anything that was in violation of the codes of the city, otherwise the enclave would have been shut down. The PC's mounted an unprovoked attack. It would be in Eltan's best interest to round up the PC's lest Thay apply untimely diplomatic pressure on them.
VictorSim 03-01-04, 02:20 PM	Sounds like you have an awesome opportunity to run a steadily escalating series of encounters. The first step if it hasn't been done is to run the destruction of the enclave series of battles. If you do not want to create the enclave yourself then you can use the one included in Lords of Darkness. The first Red Wizard response is to find out who attacked/destroyed their enclave. If the PCs were secretive use divination spells and spies to found out. Once the Red Wizard's know their enemy then the best next response would be political. Spreading word of the "illegal" attack on their legal operation the Thayans turn the PCs into criminals and have them hunted by LG paladin types, possibly even their own church. Unless the PCs can prove the Red Wizards were doing something illegal then they are guilty and will likely have to flee. The third response would be to have bounty hunters/ assassins/ law officials/ conjured outsiders hunting down the party. That should give you plenty of adventure material to last many sessions. Victor Sim
Cunning Linguist 03-01-04, 02:27 PM	If you have a paladin in there, I would give him a smakdown. Tyr is all about law, and he/she just broke it. I'd give the paladin a NG AL, and let him perform some great deed to fix this. No more lay on hands or detect evil before he gets back in line.
Crowmeister 03-01-04, 05:37 PM	What Tyron (our DM) forgot to mention is that he DID insist on us doing this. He thought it would be a great idea for us to show the Red Wizzards we weren't going to let them throw random fireballs at baldur's gate and destroy a great part of the city Second, that our party was aided by a duke of BG who KNEW that the enclave was under BG's protection, and forgot to mention that. She even provided us with scrolls and a gem of power with 2 meteor swarms And the Paladin of Tyr had nothing to do with this. This operation was performed by only 2 of our party members
Tyron 03-01-04, 05:56 PM	This is exactly what my party members meant. Nobody dares to confront the red wizards anymore. Becauses they made allies with local corrupt egoistic nobels. And sell drugs for al living. Much respect for the party leader a moon elf. But your comments are spledid! Keep them coming.
Cunning Linguist 03-01-04, 06:06 PM	Red Wizards throwing fireballs at the city? Thats crazy? how are they going to make a buck that way? The only right thing to do here is make the Paladin turn over the rest of the party to Baldur's Gate. He can't let such law brakers walk the streets. If he refuses.. Smackdown... *I just love doing smackdown on those goody paladins* :angel:
The Simbul 03-02-04, 04:44 AM	If the Red Wizards are hurling Fireballs and wielding slaying magic in the heart of the city, then they are violating the Law, and the Paladin was fully within his alignment restrictions to slay them. Hmm, perhaps I should pay a little visit to the Sword Coast... :mage: :mage: :mage:
Masakado 03-02-04, 01:57 PM	Originally posted by Tyron .Becauses they made allies with local corrupt egoistic nobels. And sell drugs for al living. Were these charges substantiated or are they just heresay? Note even a Red Wizard can hang without proof of wrongdoing. Obviously the PC's were used as pawns by the BG council member. As someone else said, I find it hard to believe that the Red Wizards would compromise the entire Enclave scheme as a whole by throwing fireballs at Baldur's Gate. That's just asking for a war, as well as making another enemy that Thay does not need. If the Red Wizards were involved in any illegal activity (most likely they were) it would probably be a very subtle and cloaked affair, requiring quite a bit of effort on the PC's part to uncover. The magery of the Red Wizards would make such a plot even more difficult, but not impossible, to unravel.
muzcocuk 03-02-04, 03:20 PM	according to their agreement to baldur's gate council, their enclave is tolerated but not protected or defended by the city. not that they need protection. players may be supported by some aristocratic families that has opposing benefits with red wizards. this is clearly using players as pawns but as far as red wizards have a tendency to be `evil` paladin should feel free to slay some. that is not an action against authority.
Tyron 03-02-04, 07:19 PM	What better to increase the sale in magical items than to make people scared. This is a simple game of economics boost sells by increasing demand. If you were a citizen of Baldur's gate wouldn't you want a potion of resist energy when fireballs are hurled around. And who ever said the red wizards were throwing fireballs, you can't notice wizards casting spells while using the still and silent metamagic feats. Maybe it were the darn PC's themselves. Blaming their misdoings on the hard working and honest Red wizards. :smirk: The attack on red wizards enclave was orchestrated by a noble from Baldur's Gate who wanted to stop the red wizards from getting to powerful and to influential in the Gate's politics. The red wizards planned ''this boost in demand'' long before they started it and moved the headquarters of the enclave below the surface of Baldur's gate: where it remains unscathed and in total secrecy. I like your ideas about sending paladins of Tyr to enforce the law and the political response. :) And I will certainly use it. But the PC are not stupid they will mask themselves from scrying using nondetection etc. How can the red wizards find out that the PC's were behind this attack?
Tyron 03-02-04, 07:39 PM	Does anyone has stats or nice ideas for red wizards of about fifteenth level?
Cunning Linguist 03-02-04, 08:01 PM	How can the red wizards find out that the PC's were behind this attack? Have the Red Wizard frame the PC's for the attack on the City.. They get someone and use modify memory to make them remember seeing the PC's using a wand of fireballs to attack the city. Then they get someone to insirt a half used Wand of Fireballs and a letter where there "orders" are written and a few doses of Sakrash (Twilight Mind) into the PC's sak/bag, right before the Paladins comes and rounds them up. The Wand is has a Zhentarim marking on it. The letter is from a Zhentarim agent that has just left the city. It describes how the PC's should use a scroll of improved invis. before the attack, and that they will get there dose of Twilight Mind after they are done with the attack. The clue here is that only Red Wizards deal in Sakrash, and the players will have to get a hold of some shady characters to prove this is right. (if you don't want the characters to get away that easy, use Mordayn Vapor instead of Sakrash)
CaineTheInsaine 03-03-04, 12:23 AM	Hey! Just wanted to say thanks, this thread gave me an idea, in my Underdark campaign the charecters are trying to make it from Wyrmspawn to Menzoberrazan.. hehehe, arrive at the city of the Drow, and the red Wizards have an enclade! Could be fun! :) Thanks for the idea.! :schemes:
Wooly Rupert 03-03-04, 12:49 AM	Originally posted by CaineTheInsaine Hey! Just wanted to say thanks, this thread gave me an idea, in my Underdark campaign the charecters are trying to make it from Wyrmspawn to Menzoberrazan.. hehehe, arrive at the city of the Drow, and the red Wizards have an enclade! Could be fun! :) Thanks for the idea.! :schemes: I seriously doubt that any drow city would allow a Red Wizard enclave. For one thing, the drow are a magical bunch as it is -- why would they let humans into their city to sell something that they could as easily make themselves? For another thing, what drow city would willingly allow a bunch of humans to live there? Last point: what bunch of Red Wizards would be insane enough to try to make a permanent presence in a drow city? The drow aren't terribly fond of humans, surface-worlders, or outsiders, so being all three in a drow city is a risky proposition at best.
Ramius_Mordale 03-03-04, 01:26 AM	Doesn't mean the Thayans wouldn't hire a drow family to help them sell their items discreetly though. Say the family gets a nice slice of the profits that the Thayans make on the product. Dealings like that are done all the time in the Underdark, and Drow as being the evil variety, aren't below making deals in order to gain an upper hand over their fellow Drow. Now actual humans that are Thayans selling in a Drow city, eh, probably not. Thats just asking for death like Wooley Rupert said. But Drow family trying to gain a few extra bucks (and influence) while helping (?) out the Thayans, probably the most likely senerio. Remember though Drow only deal with such rift raft if they get the better end of the deal (and they are always shrewd, cunning merchants). Though thats just my opinion on the subject of the Underdark thing. As for the Red Wizard for the what the post is about, ah, just start throwing some good old illusionist and enchanter focused Red Wizards. Then have a diviner along scrying and you got a special squad of thayans scouring the country side for these righteous folk. Might want to have a couple check out a prestige class in the Complete Warrior for that Prestige class about a thayan bodyguard (can't remember the name right off the top of my head). Then once this special group finds them they alert their fellow companions (being probably an evoker and necromancer would be my choice) and have a few nasty surprises when they teleport in to whipe out the group, if the Special task force wasn't able to kill them through indirect ways. But thats just my 2 cents worth.
Wooly Rupert 03-03-04, 01:54 AM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Doesn't mean the Thayans wouldn't hire a drow family to help them sell their items discreetly though. Say the family gets a nice slice of the profits that the Thayans make on the product. Dealings like that are done all the time in the Underdark, and Drow as being the evil variety, aren't below making deals in order to gain an upper hand over their fellow Drow. Now actual humans that are Thayans selling in a Drow city, eh, probably not. Thats just asking for death like Wooley Rupert said. But Drow family trying to gain a few extra bucks (and influence) while helping (?) out the Thayans, probably the most likely senerio. Remember though Drow only deal with such rift raft if they get the better end of the deal (and they are always shrewd, cunning merchants). Though thats just my opinion on the subject of the Underdark thing. Still, why would the drow buy from humans? The drow are a magic-happy race, and they produce oodles of their own stuff. It's like walking into a Dell store and trying to convince them to buy a Gateway. It's just not gonna happen. At least, not enclave-like. Some rare, high-priced items might be welcome, but none of the stuff you'd find a Thayvian enclave selling.
Darth_Olsinus 03-03-04, 02:16 AM	Forgive me if someone has already mentioned this, wouldn't the Baldur's Gate (i.e. flaming fist) have taken matters into their own hands as soon as the first fireball detontated. They would have put the smack down on the Thayan enclave. As for the underdark thing...I can think of one really useful thing that the Red Wizards could provide for the drow. Wait for it... INFORMATION. It could be a mutually beneficial relationship. The Red Wizards could pick up underdark goods, spell components, and all sorts of nasty creatures to guard other enclaves. The drow on the other hand have a ready and reliable source of information about the surface and could easliy insert disguised operatives into surface targets via other Thayan enclaves. Would the drow still look down on the lowly humans? Yes. Would the sneaky Thayans look for ways to exploit the drow in their struggles for power? Yes. A world of possibilities.
Ramius_Mordale 03-03-04, 02:23 AM	Why not make their future slaves make those magic items that they just waste their time making? After all, Drow think of all surface dwellers as such, slaves. And I'm not saying the Drow as a people have to know this specific Drow or Drow family is dealing out Thayan items. Most likely they would claim them as their own, of course they would tweak them a bit when selling to 'certain' customers. Plus it saves them time making the items themselves which gives the Drow or Drow family more time for their schemes. A scheming Drow is a happy Drow in my opinion. ;) But unfornately, as you said Wooly Rupert why would they deal with humans? Well depending on if they where desperate or needed some quick cash fast to get out of debt of some faction they might. After all, your willing to deal with people you usually won't when your life is on the line. That may be why they (being a Drow or Drow family) would be dealing Thayan enclave magic items.
Noel 03-03-04, 02:27 AM	I think wiping out the red wizard's enclave was a great idea, its heroic and shows initative, let them do it, but make it reasonably tough. Let them free some slaves, who should be grateful, several of which could become loyal servants or provide plots for future adventures (eg: freeing other slaves, stopping evil socercer who purchased 1000 onyx stones for creating undead last week) Give them some nice magic and money as treasure. Technicaly speaking enclaves are thay territory so it was an attack on thay, not baldurs gate so the local law has no jurisisdiction over this. Just as they have no right to say what goes on within the enclave. === THE RED WIZARDS REVENGE ===== I would definitely have some comeback, sooner if they were sloppy and left clues, later if they wern't. The red wizards must have this sort of thing happen occasionally, and have many enemies so cannot really be expected to expend vast resources on them so. Simply place a significant reward on them, such as 10,000 gp in magic items and refuse to rebuild until they are caught and sent to thay for punishment. Eventually when you have used up the adventure hooks from the freed slaves and unsuccessful attempts to capture them, capture them. Then have them get free, probably with outside help from someone they helped previously and escape, hopefully in some gods-forsaken place like the anaroch desert where they can have lots of encounters, explore lost nethelese tombs, rescue nomads from black network slavers and such like.
Semmek 03-03-04, 02:29 AM	Drow Items have this bad habit of becoming useless once they hit the sun ya see:P. So its not entirely unlikely that the drow may buy items made by people on the surface in order to ensure there usual gear doesn't ..... yanno....kinda of not work if they have a prolonged mission to the surface...
Amoun 03-03-04, 05:40 AM	Just a side note: While Red Wizards do indulge in slavery, enclaves buy slaves from either willing people (Ex: You have a debt and will pay through slavery for a period) or criminals (Ex: Baldur's gate criminals condemned to death sold for money to the enclave). The Enclaves usually do not hold slaves for very long because if slavery is illegal in the territory they establish an enclave in they try to respect their hosts, even though an enclave is technically Thayvian soil. While a Thayvian enclave is considered Thayvian soil it is also under the protection of the host (Ex: Baldur's Gate), in fact part of the "usual" deals for establishing enclaves is that Red Wizards serve as "magical support" for the city "ocassionaly" (Even though if it is for very short periods in time). It is in Elton's best interest to mantain the Thayvian enclave as it supplies heavily demanded magical goods and is profitable for the city itself. Now if a rival mercantile house like the Iron Throne or a noble house were to be opposed to Thayvian presence thats perfectly fine. But technically speaking (unless you have made it otherwise) an attack on a Thayvian enclave is illegal and the Flaming Fists AND the Red Wizards would launch a major investigation. The Red Wizards have a particularly large interest in finding the culprits for the simple reason that they have to make an example out of these attackers of Thay. In fact it is very likely that once the individuals are discovered a special "hunting expedition" will be launched, this will likely include a group of professional assassins tailored to killing the PCs (I am not talking about Assassins as the prestige class or rogues, I'm talking about happy dandy Red Wizards, Thayvian Knights, etc..) This is of course my humble opinion as to what would occur, remember this is your campaign and do whatever is better suited for your players and yourself :) But personally I would have severe consequences to the attack both from the Thayvians and from the rulers of Baldur's Gate :) Hope that helped Amoun
Tyron 03-03-04, 07:27 AM	I like your ideas and insight notes and I intend on exploiting them. And CaineTheInsaine wish you all the fun with the thayan enclave. I am sure you will find a way to sort things out. Especially with the help from the boards. But I have another question for you board members. And this time from the players perspective. Every player wants to have rewards some are satisfied with magical items and money, but my players very much pursue the cause of good. And I as DM want to give them oppurtunities to really mean something for the world of Toril. My question to you is how can the PC be victorious and earn the credits of the people of Baldur's gate and maybe even rout the red wizards from Baldur's gate?
Klyden 03-03-04, 03:54 PM	The PC's should be smart about destroying the enclave. They should use Illusion spells to mask their appearence and anti-divination spells to prevent detection. Maybe they should summon some monsters to attack "all the red wizards and those protecting them located at the enclave". A Planetar or a couple of Astral Deva's plus some Trumpet Archon's or powerful Eladrin should be enough to wipe the enclave out. Or use Golems. Golems do nicely. Razor Golems. Iron Golems. Coal Golems. Or mix them with Celestials! Or better yet, have the Thayans set up using cursed magical items. Or if the Paladin of Torm is involved, have him start an investigation into the Thayans to see if they are breaking any laws or transporting slaves. That kind of adventure could lead the Adventurers into conflict with Ethan or some powerful nobles. It could be a wonderful adventure filled with all kinds of fun.
VictorSim 03-03-04, 04:47 PM	Originally posted by Tyron My question to you is how can the PC be victorious and earn the credits of the people of Baldur's gate and maybe even rout the red wizards from Baldur's gate? The first and most important step has to be revealing the Red Wizards as the evil individuals they are. While the Red Wizards will be hiding their nefarious schemes, they will nevertheless still be doing something evil which the party needs to be able to prove to the locals. Once this is done then the party can earn kudos for kicking out the evil Red Wizards. Victor Sim
VictorSim 03-03-04, 05:00 PM	Originally posted by Tyron How can the red wizards find out that the PC's were behind this attack? Survivors or other eye witnesses. Speak with dead to see who killed the Red Wizards. (Can be countered with good disguises.) Spies tracking down the loot that the party presumably takes from the fallen. Summon an invisible stalker or have a ridiculously skilled ranger track the party through the city. Creatures with scent ability would make good trackers as well. High level divination spells might give the answer as well. Victor
CamoreGofnamOfEvereska 03-03-04, 09:17 PM	If the PCs expose any illegal activities of the Red Wizard Enclave before they attack, the Flaming Fist could charge in with them. Now THAT'S a fight I'd like to see! :D
Klyden 03-04-04, 07:21 PM	But then they'd have to share all the juicy Exp with the Flaming Fist! ;)
Crowmeister 03-04-04, 07:57 PM	Seeing that I play the Paladin of Tyr I will have a talk with the party what to do next. We fled to one of the party's bases (elven castle in a secret valley) to finnish up some stuff. But we will return to BG and I hope we can get some help of the Flaming Fist or from the duke. Either way we won't give in to the RW's and we know they destroyed half of the city and we know that the duke must know that as well (you know? :p). So in that case she'll have no other choise then to help us, and send a nice little patrol of Flaming Fists to lay seige or something on the rest of the enclave (it's entirely destroyed, we only had like 10 fireballs and 2 meteor stroms). Anyway, thanks for the help you gave our DM and seeing that your advise was pretty wild I guess we'll die next time, we'll show them hell anyway! FOR TYR :angel:
Klyden 03-04-04, 09:53 PM	Indeed! Bring the rightousness of the Triad to these foul Red Wizards and their brethren!
CamoreGofnamOfEvereska 03-07-04, 12:38 PM	HUZZAH!!! Go kick some Thayan a**! By the way, Crowmeister, is the "secret Elven valley" you mentioned Evereska? I'm running a campaign based there.
CamoreGofnamOfEvereska 03-07-04, 12:40 PM	HUZZAH!!! Go kick some Thayan a**! By the way, Crowmeister, is the "secret Elven valley" you mentioned Evereska? I'm running a campaign based there (as if u couldn't tell from my name).
Tyron 03-07-04, 01:12 PM	Elves from Everska, the high forest, silverymoon and maybe even some harpers. CamoreGofnamOfEvereska you let me think of wonderfull idea. A war upon the red wizards to cleanse fearun of thayan enclaves. And in the meanwhile loot the enclaves of all their wealth. :D What do you think of this?
Cunning Linguist 03-07-04, 01:19 PM	Taken out all the Enclaves would bring Szass Tam down upon em. Bringing down just one or two would to that. Trying to take down more, might bring all the Zulkirs down on them. Something along the line of.. on the third enclave they are attacking: Szass Tam and a small army spring forth and show them the power of the most powerful nation in the realms.
Reles Villian 03-07-04, 01:21 PM	Why does everyone hate the Red Wizards of Thay? Without evil you cant have good. In the stance of goodwill just have them destory a small front in a minor town.
Cunning Linguist 03-07-04, 01:23 PM	Without evil you cant have good. ...So it must go good to be evil sometimes...
Tyron 03-07-04, 01:42 PM	I've never seen red wizards cooperating. And why would they start cooperating if the enclaves are attacked. Szass Tam isn't even supporting the enclaves and what would be better for him then to see his opposing zulkirs being diverted to wage a war thousand of miles away. Depleting their resources and attention far away... while in the meantime Szass tam can once more try to control Thay. The zulkirs won't cooperate that's my opinion, or would they?
Cunning Linguist 03-07-04, 02:00 PM	Are you reading the 1.ed Dreams of a Red Wizard? How could a Enclave system work, if no wizards worked togheter? Szass Tam controlls the Red Wizards with his magic, and with with fear. (and funds atleast 1 enclave) The Zulkirs are parted up in 2 groups, one who wants to expand, and one who wants to isolate and make more powerful magic. The Zulkirs in one group work togheter, and they seldom, or never openly work against each other. On top of this, remember that a Enclave is Thayan soil. If a PC attacks a enclave, they are attacking not just the enclave, but Thay. This is how Szass Tam would see it.. Taking down a Enclave is no diffrent then trying to take down Eltabbar.
Tyron 03-08-04, 07:46 AM	No I haven't read the dreams of the red wizard, but I would like to. At home I have the spellbound box set which contains two adventures throne of deceit and the runes of chaos. In these adventures Szass tam plots against one of the zulkirs to get the upper hand in thayan politics. And I thought why would this have changed? Maybe Szass tam will once again use this 'war' for his own benefit. The zulkirs are powerfull enough to operate a number of enclaves on their own I guess, but if the novel DRW explains otherwise and the zulkirs work together than thay is definetly the most powerfull nation in Thay. And if Szass tam will come with a small army than my PC's are in the fight of their lives , probably their last Fight :D
Cunning Linguist 03-08-04, 07:53 AM	If your using the spellbound box you are lagging behind the current events of Thay. Szass Tam has united most of the Red Wizards under him. They are far more united then in 2.ed, when they where a bunch of rag tag wizards with dreams of power. 3.ed Red Wizards are corperate evil at its best. The adventures in the box set are the reason why Szass is in power. He wins those adventures and that leads to his power in 3.ed.
wingGodzilla 03-08-04, 08:22 AM	I hope I'm not too late in writing this for you. But the biggest threat a Red Wizard has...is another Red Wizard. While there is no doubt as a whole the Red Wizards are more united then ever before, there is a lot of battles between mages on the lower levels. You could easly have a rival for the leader of the enclave, maybe the one who is truely behide your PC's to go after the enclave to begain with. Remember most Red Wizards are killed by Red Wizards and if the leader of the enclave in BG got too powerful, others would want to "level the playing field" again. Good Luck!
Tyron 03-08-04, 09:56 AM	In throne of deceit szass tam uses adventurers to foil an thayan invasion into Rashemen to humiliate the zulkir of evoaction. And in Runes of Chaos his plan to enslave the Tanari lord is foiled by the same group of adventurers. But this doesn't explain how Szass Tam increased his power in 3.x. And after reading lord of darkness you get the feeling that power is shifting away from him to his allies. And if the red wizards are cooperating than they are far greater danger than before and should be disorganized/stopped immedeatly.
Cunning Linguist 03-08-04, 10:27 AM	I hope I'm not too late in writing this for you. But the biggest threat a Red Wizard has...is another Red Wizard. While there is no doubt as a whole the Red Wizards are more united then ever before, there is a lot of battles between mages on the lower levels. You could easly have a rival for the leader of the enclave, maybe the one who is truely behide your PC's to go after the enclave to begain with. Remember most Red Wizards are killed by Red Wizards and if the leader of the enclave in BG got too powerful, others would want to "level the playing field" again. Good Luck! Killing one red wizard or two will not hurt anyone, it's morel like a common thing. But if someone tries to take down an Enclave it's a whole other matter. Think of it like this: A whole bunch of Red Wizards are fighting with each other.. and someone comes up and backstabbs one wizard.. all the other wizards stop and look at the newcommer, who has nothing to do with Thay, and is considerd a outsider, and worthy nothing more then a slave. They might see the loss of this one wizard as a good thing, but they will never let this fellow live. Someone not worth more then a Slaverace can't just go around killing High Noble Red Wizards. Killing the guy who killed the Red Wizard would be Priority Nr. 1. before they went back to there plotting and scheeming. And if the red wizards are cooperating than they are far greater danger than before and should be disorganized/stopped immedeatly. They are a greater danger them before, and this is great. In 2.ed they where not a problem at all. Remember the rule: "Without Evil there can be no good, so it must be good to be evil sometimes." And the Red Wizards are the best kind of evil a DM can have. (Zhentarim come close, but RW are better)
Tyron 03-08-04, 10:49 AM	What would be a good srategy to do some serious harm to the red wizards?
trentlanthier 03-08-04, 10:49 AM	I wouldn't say that the Zulkirs are ALL unified, Tam does have several of them on his side, but not all of them. Its in almost EVERY redwizards best interest to keep the enclaves going. Tam has opened up his own enclave because he fears what the money and wealth may bring his opponents. He is not a large supporter but he realizes that there is a need. It also states that he's been making alot of the illegal stuff (Wands of fireball, death items etc) If someone systematically started to destroy the Enclaves, not only would local governments get involved to assist them (After all Enclaves have some rights) tag in there Blackstaffs side of the Ex Harpers (Moonstones, or Moondaggers don't remember) who stive to keep keep the balance between good and evil. And possibly even the Harpers who really don't want to see Thay riled up after becoming so complacent. The red wizards for sure would strike back hard, and even Epic PC's would have a hard time facing the might of all the red wizards. Even Thay would unit together in the face of greater danger. Time and time again history has shown us in the real world that country's unit in the face of a common enemy. To me this sounds like a way to get the PC's killed. Unless you "Dumb" down the red wizards.
Cunning Linguist 03-08-04, 10:57 AM	What would be a good strategy to do some serious harm to the red wizards? This belongs with subjects: "How to Kill Elminister?" "All the chosen of mystra are going down!" "War with Waterdeep?" "How to make Shade fall?" "How to kill all the Drow" and "Attack on Evermeet" Taking down one or two red wizard can be done, but harming the Red Wizards of Thay cannot be done without serious support from Mulhorand, Aglarond, Thesk and Rashamen.. and even then it would be a close fight.
Wooly Rupert 03-08-04, 11:26 AM	The two best ways to wipe out a Thayvian enclave: 1) Somehow -- likely involving infiltration, some magic, and a lot of role-playing -- set the wizards of the enclave against each other. If it gets down to different wizard(s) of the enclave going against each other, with frequent and/or big, destructive spellbattles in the heart of the city, then the city might, thru means either diplomatic or otherwise, force the Thayans out. Alternatively, the enclave could be weakened enough to allow PCs or assassins to wipe out the remaining wizards, and overrun the enclave before Thay can send replacement wizards. A similar possibility uses some of the same methods, but just makes it too painful for Thay to maintain a presence there. 2) Trick the wizards into launching "unprovoked" attacks against the city or some of its citizens. If that happened, the city would have to fight back and force the wizards out. Now, I'm not saying either of these things would be easy -- the second option, in particular, would be very tricky to pull off. But other than really radical (like digging a large hole under the enclave, so it collapses into it), I don't see any other ways to get rid of a Thayvian enclave. It's like the "Lawyers" issue of the old AD&D comic: once you let them into your city, it's nigh impossible to get them back out.
CamoreGofnamOfEvereska 03-22-04, 05:24 PM	Cunning Linguist, its Tyron's campaign! If he wants the PCs to be able to seriously harm the Red Wizards, let them! It would make for an incredibly fun adventure, in my opinion. Tyron, I love your idea of the elves of Evereska, the High Forest, and Silverymoon, as well as the Harpers, helping the PCs wage war on Thayan Enclaves.
Cunning Linguist 03-22-04, 05:57 PM	Cunning Linguist, its Tyron's campaign! If he wants the PCs to be able to seriously harm the Red Wizards, let them! Sure, I never said he was not allowed, I just think it's wrong for a party of 10 level characters to take down the biggest evil empire in faerun.. but thats just me.
CamoreGofnamOfEvereska 03-23-04, 10:21 PM	Neither I nor Tyron said they'd "take them down", just bring some harm to them--with the help of the Harpers & elves from Evereska, Silverymoon, & the High Forest. In fact, such a war could constitute an entire campaign, and reach its climax with the PCs battling a Zulkir (perhaps even Szass Tam himself) when they are 20th level or higher.
Cunning Linguist 03-24-04, 03:45 AM	Neither I nor Tyron said they'd "take them down", just bring some harm to them-- the word that was used was "serious harm". And I said bringing serious harm to Red Wizards is about as hard as Taken down Waterdeep. If you say "now your just being wrong, if he wants to do harm, let him" I say "Sure, but it should be just as hard as taking down Waterdeep" Thay is the strongest nation in Toril, with twice the firepower of any other nation. It is controlled by the most powerhungry and evil wizards on Toril (not counting Shade). They have more power then any other group in faerun. And when someone askes how to do "serious harm" to this group, I say "that's damn near imposible". Almost as hard, if not harder, then "Killing all the chosen of mystra". What Im trying to say here is; You can try, but look how hard it is. A party of 10 level characters would die before they left there first target. Even a 20 level party would have some problems doing harm to them alone.
Mumm-Ra 03-24-04, 07:28 AM	I agree with Cunnign linguist there. A lvl 10 party could bring an enclave down if its being clever and resourceful, but they would be in deep **** since a simple contact other plane or commune by the clerics of kossuth will narrow down the culprits. Questions like 'are they still in town?' or 'are they traveling away?' followed by 'are they traveling towards (town 1)?' . if no, 'are they traveling towards (town 2)?' and so on. Or a simple scry would work, followed by a mass teleport of a red wizard assassination squad in the midst of the adventurers. Basically targetting such a powerful group with a low lvl party (yes, lvl 10 is low lvl) is suicide except with the most intelligent and resourceful players. That, or the DM is seriously downplaying red wizard capabilities.
CamoreGofnamOfEvereska 03-25-04, 09:46 PM	People, D&D is a game. It doesn't have to be logical, just fun! And OK, maybe they couldn't bring your definition of "serious harm" to Thay, but they could take out a few more enclaves with the help of elves & the Harpers like Tyron suggested a while back. Also, I still stand by my previous statement that such a series of adventures would be an incredibly fun one.
Lady Claransa Trent 03-25-04, 10:49 PM	Personally I think that Mr. Linguist has good points, and I agree that it's unlikely that a group of 10th PCs would "take down" the biggest nation on Faerun. However, most adventures should be presented as if it's nearly impossible to achieve the desired goal. In theory a halfling shouldn't be able to bring down a mighty evil empire but did in LOTR, a simple woolhead shouldn't be able to unify most of the world to ready it to battle the Dark One in the Wheel of Time, but does. I think having seemingly impossible odds before you, then overcoming them is what makes fantasy gaming fun. I'm not trying to counter Cunning's points, which are valid, I'm just saying probable isn't always, and this is fantasy anyway. However, I do agree that the party won't be destroying Thay anytime soon. But I think that a party of 10th level PCs realistically, within the rules, still CAN do some pretty good damage, if they do so intelligently and have some luck on their side. If level 10 characters never fought more powerful adversaries they wouldn't really be heroes. That said, I really do agree that they won't be doing anything like killing Tam anytime soon, but at the same time they may eventually reach that point. In the meantime they may be major annoyances to Tam, and have to be very careful to survive. I also don't believe that Tam would automatically jump to the aid of a destroyed enclave. He has his enclave for pragmatic reasons, and as far as I understood wasn't keen on the enclave thing anyway, He may feel pressure from other RWs, or Thayan politicians, and may even think allowing the destruction of an enclave to pass without him taking revenge sets a dangerous precedent. But that's still not a guarentee. Baldur's Gate may have a diplomatic explanation for what happened. The city or the PCs may agree to pay reparations. Tam may have had a big argument with another Zulkir that morning, one who supported enclaves in general and had a personal interest in the BG one in particular. I'm rambling, but basically just wanted to suggest that while retaliation may be a likely course for Tam to take, it may not be the only possible reply he could make. I really like the idea of making this a LONG, ongoing campaign. I think it has a huge amount of potential, a great villian (group of villians) that won't be easily or quickly defeated, and lots of opportunity for both roleplaying and combat. Good luck!
wingGodzilla 04-01-04, 10:24 AM	You would do better to go after the Red Wizards works one enclave at a time. The slow and steady way will be the one that will prevail. Become Red Wizard hunters. Work your way up the latter. Have fun with it. Major groups can not be taken down with one punch. But over time that is when the real damage is truely felt.
BalancedOne 04-02-04, 07:59 PM	Sazz Tam is the biggist proponent of the Enclaves, he sees all the wealth flowing to Thay, and can comprend all the jucy new spells that he can reshearch and the stuff they can buy with it. I think the only Zulkers that are Opposed to the enclaves are Evocation, Conjuration and maby Illusion because there schools are not suited to the creation of the goods the enclaves sell, these Zulkers are also the ones who want to go to war with Rasimen/Aragoland the most Sazz Tam does not rule openly because he wants to save Thay's strength incase of a War, otherwise he would have Killed all the other Zulkers and taken over Thay long ago. He does have some means of Influence over the other Zulkers however. Any Way, if someone started to wipe away Enclaves, the pragmatic Zulkers would Work to remove the threat to Thay, and Sazz Tam would bully the others into helping. A Conjured Pitfiend puts a Crimp into any 10th lv. Party's Plans