Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Landro 02-04-08, 09:43 PM	Given that there is a reasonable amount of hard feeling floating around the boards regarding the “trashing” of the Realms with the upcoming move to 4E, I thought I would go to the trouble of documenting my (and to a greater or lesser degree the rest of my gaming group) views on the Realms. Hopefully this will illustrate some of the reasons why we consider the changes being made to be good ones on the whole. Firstly I would like to give a little background about our group that you can keep in mind when reading this post, as it will help provide perspective. We are all old friends in our late 20’s, who have been playing together for well over a decade. When we decided to set our games in the Realms it was for the simple reason that it was going to be a well supported setting in 3E. For what it’s worth we were right, and we enjoyed that support. However, none of us have read more than a couple of novels set in FR. They simply do not interest us. All our knowledge comes from the sourcebooks themselves and although all of us are reasonably well versed in these, none could be considered experts in Realmslore. In conclusion, I’d say we’re fairly representative of the The following observations are mostly my own, although they have been tempered by those of my group as well over many BBQ discussions in summer. High Magic FR is high magic. In fact, it HIGH MAGIC. It’s the most high magic world we’ve seen. The magic items released in Realms products tend toward the very powerful end of the spectrum (although they often do so with real style), with price tags to match. The spells are often mightier than their core expansion counterparts. This has two effects on the game as far as we see it. The first is that spellcasters become disproportionately more powerful with each new supplement. The second is that gear (for everybody) becomes an even more important factor in your PC’s life than it does for a “regular” PC. That isn’t cool –we’ve found that it tends to turn your PC into something approximating the pilot of an armoured mech unit instead of a hero risking life and limb and surviving on her wits and little cinematic luck. High Fantasy Faerun is the world for epic level adventure in D&D. Everything is bigger and badder in the Realms. If you like playing high level characters then this is fantastic, but we’ve found that the game slows down dramatically in the higher levels, and that’s less fun. Because there are so many epic creatures floating around, your 16th level rogue just doesn’t seem special. He’s a virtual god to the peasants, but he barely rates as a blip on the list of things you should really worry about in Faerun. In fact, I’m almost certain there are bar tenders with more levels than your PC. It’s exciting when an opponent is much more powerful than an individual PC, but it’s demoralizing when a dozen occupants of a city who just lounge around all day are as well. This begs the question as well – what of all the ruins and ancient evils that lie around Faerun? One would think that with this many high level characters around said ruins and evils would have likely been cleared or vanquished sometime in the last 30 generations. Detail It’s hard to deny that FR has oodles of detail everywhere. If you’re the kind of DM who builds his adventures around this detail then it’s a blessing. If you’re the kind of DM who prefers to go it alone then it can be frustrating finding the perfect looking lake to set an adventure around only to find that it’s a holiday retreat or has a dragon you didn’t want living there. Or both. It’s difficult to avoid the feeling that everywhere has already been explored before, or that if you do find somewhere that hasn’t been mapped out it might well be when the next supplement comes out in 6 months time. The Bad Guys I love it – the bad guys in the FR are for the most part great. I’m not talking about the NPC specifically here, but more the organizations. They’re powerful and nasty, and have their own agendas. The Good Guys The good guys rival the bad guys in virtually every way. That’s the problem. They’re just as powerful as the Bad Guys and also have their own agendas, but are much more likely to put those agendas aside to protect their corners of the world from the sort of epic challenges that might be preparing to do wrong. This is closely related to High Fantasy section I posted above. If the DM decides that a powerful evil is about to start rampaging through the North and the party of 20th level characters are the only ones heroic enough to stop it, then he has to explain why Alustriel, Laeral, Dove, Storm, Elminster, Khelben, Quile, Mr Do’ Urden and co have all gone on holiday. Alternatively, he can include them in some way in the story. Either way your PC’s are coming off as being overshadowed by great NPC’s of the Realms in one way or another. Elminster alone is almost CR40. If he actually were a PC his ECL would be much higher again. It’s difficult for a party to really feel significant when they know that one (let alone a large number) of their allies could do the same job they are on his way back from the gym on a Saturday morning. Finding reasons for them all not to can feel a little contrived after a while. Of course you can set your games elsewhere – the North is an extreme example. However, similarly powerful NPC’s appear all over FR. I’m certain that none of this is really a revelation to most of you, but I thought I’d add some small degree of weight to the calls for some of the massive changes that the 4th edition Realms are bringing. Not all of them of course, but most of them. Please bear in mind that these are the opinions of a gamer who is not immersed in the lore of the Realms. I do not read any of the novels. I flick over the Realmslore internet articles if I’m bored sometimes. My group is in largely the same boat. If WotC want to continue with FR as their main product line moving into 4th Edition, then I think some of the changes they’ve made are going to prove vital to the games vitality.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 10:53 AM	I disagree with the idea that all of Faerun has been meticulously detailed (in fact, the opposite is true) as well as the idea that certain NPCs in the Realms are bound to overshadow the NPCs. Both of those things, if they truly are problems, are totally within the DM's control, anyway. For example, you're free to chuck out any lore that you don't want to use--the need to conform to what is "canon" is entirely self-imposed. And contrary to (seemingly) popular belief, most people in the Realms aren't epic level characters. That's coming from someone who dislikes the FR 4E setting changes and reads as much about the FR as she can, but is NOT a canon-junkie! There are plenty of ideas in the current setting that I don't care for. That being said, the 4E rules do intrigue me, even though the setting changes for the FR don't. And of course, you're free to do what you want with your game.
Faraer 02-06-08, 07:00 AM	The magic items released in Realms products tend toward the very powerful end of the spectrum (although they often do so with real style), with price tags to match. The spells are often mightier than their core expansion counterparts.If so, it's an accident. Magic isn't more powerful in the Realms so much as more various.The second is that gear (for everybody) becomes an even more important factor in your PC’s life than it does for a “regular” PC.This is a world where the stories of magic items matter, not their game-mechanical bonuses, despite the 3E rules.Faerun is the world for epic level adventure in D&D.It isn't biased toward high-level adventuring.Because there are so many epic creatures floating around, your 16th level rogue just doesn’t seem special.Only if you conflate specialness and protagonization with character level. The specialness of the Knights of Myth Drannor or Jhaele Silvermane has nothing to do with what levels they are.One would think that with this many high level characters around said ruins and evils would have likely been cleared or vanquished sometime in the last 30 generations.The people who would do so are less numerous and effective than you think, and the ruins and evils are more numerous and more dangerous.If the DM decides that a powerful evil is about to start rampaging through the North and the party of 20th level characters are the only ones heroic enough to stop itThat's a big if, because the Realms is about local storytelling.Alternatively, he can include them in some way in the story.Would that be bad? Cooperation is at least as satisfying as do-it-all-yourself egoboo.
DMD 02-06-08, 03:54 PM	I think Landro that your style of play preference would be for a lower magic world. I have had a few players who started in my campaign and just did not like the high level magic and high fantasy feel I have in my campaign. However, there are certainly places (like the North I think the Border Kingdoms and I am sure others I cannot think of) that are a much different from the high magic fantasy areas like Silverymoon and Halruaa. I think a lot of the complaints you had though will not be going away in 4E. We still have Drizzt and El and I am sure other heroes from pre-spell plague era. If anything there is now more magic not less and there are probably more numerous nasty enemies in the newly changed areas. We still have the Kingdom of Cormyr and the newly resurrected Myth Drannor as strong organizations for good. So really the perceived problems you have pointed out are not really being addressed. I am not sure I agree with all of your points though some of them are valid. Still the game is to a large extent what the DM makes of it. For example, I change areas I do not like, I add cities and dungeons from other settings to the Realms when I feel like it. If I were you I would just not worry about what the sourcebook has to say and if the players tell you that is not what so and so source book says repeat the golden rule of DMing. Let them know those books are just guidelines and you are the final arbiter of what is and isn't.
Landro 02-06-08, 07:10 PM	I am currently on my lunch break at work, so this will have to be much breifer than I'd like. Firstly, I'm not suggesting that all of my observations in the first post are necessarily bad - just that they are what we've observed and they are the conclusions we have come to about the Realms. At the end of the day, they are just opinions. If anything there is now more magic not less and there are probably more numerous nasty enemies in the newly changed areas.It isn't that magic is so pervasive that bothers me. I don't think there will be more magic in 4E either - just that the flavour might be a little different. It isn't biased toward high-level adventuring.No other product line supports it to nearly the same degree on the other hand. You don't have to be epic levels to play in the Realms by any means, but if there's more incentive to play them in the Realms due to it's support there - then it has a bias. That may or may not be a problem. It is an observation though. That's a big if, because the Realms is about local storytelling.*Ahem*.... Time of Troubles... Spellplague.... Lloth disapears.... Armies of some demented Bhaalspawn tear up Tethyr (OK, that's not cannon but I'm not an expert).... Karsus kills a god by accident.... A trio of mortal heroes ascend to Godhood profoundly effecting religion everywhere.... *Ahem* As I said before, I'm not an expert in Realmslore. I'm sure there are very many local adventures in the novels. I know for a fact there is a lot of local content in the sourcebooks. You know the first events I think of when I hear the name Forgotten Realms? The list of things up there are all at the top. I think it's difficult to justify a claim such as yours to the majority of players. The overall perception is just as important as the detail. Would that be bad? Cooperation is at least as satisfying as do-it-all-yourself egoboo.Not bad in itself, no. There is a difference between co-operation and being asked nicely to do something by your boss on the other hand. Especially if your boss is twice the level of your almost epic level party himself. I don't really mind co-operating with important NPC's in a game if the story requires it. It's that in many cases the co-operation may only be happening because the NPC's are there already and are an obvious foil to whatever the DM may be planning. As I mentioned before it can feel contrived after a while. Both of those things, if they truly are problems, are totally within the DM's control, anyway. For example, you're free to chuck out any lore that you don't want to use--the need to conform to what is "canon" is entirely self-imposed. And contrary to (seemingly) popular belief, most people in the Realms aren't epic level characters.Don't get me wrong here - we alter whatever we feel needs to be altered. As I mentioned before, none of us are Realmslore experts or too hung up on sticking to some sort of established canon. The fact that we semi-regularly feel the need to do that may say something about the setting though. You may consider this a stong point for the setting or a weak one. I don't object to it in principle but you can understand why many players and DM's feel the way they do in light of this. As to the epic level characters thing - I'm sure most people are not epic level characters. Just a very large proportion of the ones given stat block in the sourcebooks (also a good number of those with only quick entries or level breakdowns). It certainly doesn't do anything to dispel the perception.
Old Sage 02-06-08, 07:17 PM	*Ahem*.... Time of Troubles... Spellplague.... Lloth disapears.... Armies of some demented Bhaalspawn tear up Tethyr (OK, that's not cannon but I'm not an expert).... Karsus kills a god by accident.... A trio of mortal heroes ascend to Godhood profoundly effecting religion everywhere.... *Ahem*Don't mistake the plethora of more recent Realms Shattering Events as proof enough to contradict Faraer's earlier point. Ed has said, more than once, that the original Realms, and to an extent the Realms reflected through the Old Grey Box, was designed with the concept of local storytelling in mind.
Landro 02-06-08, 07:36 PM	Don't mistake the plethora of more recent Realms Shattering Events as proof enough to contradict Faraer's earlier point. Why not? I'm a member of the "generation" of Realms players that came into the setting when 3rd Edition came around and WotC started publishing nice looking sourcebooks for it. All my knowledge is based off what has been published in 3E, and I'd hazard a guess that I'm in the largest demographic there. These are the iconic events in my mind, and I'm willing to bet that others (I suspect most of the players out there not involved in the on-line discussion forums) share a similar view. Ed has said, more than once, that the original Realms, and to an extent the Realms reflected through the Old Grey Box, was designed with the concept of local storytelling in mind.The Old Grey Box was a long time ago, and I've never had any personal conversations with Ed about the subject. He lives in another country. Catching up over coffee is a little difficult ;) This brings me back to the points about perception. I think a lot of people on the boards feel betrayed because they have this deep involvement with the concept of the old Realms. I don't blame them. I don't think their view of the Realms is the same as those of more recent generations.
Faraer 02-06-08, 08:00 PM	No other product line supports it to nearly the same degree on the other hand.I don't know other D&D lines well enough to judge, but I don't see much support for high-level play besides Power of Faerűn and occasional encounters and adventures. I wish there was. A solid treatment of high-level intrigue, how a Larloch plans, what semiretired veteran adventurers do, manoeuvring over gates, and all.*Ahem*.... Time of Troubles... Spellplague.... Lloth disapears.... Armies of some demented Bhaalspawn tear up Tethyr (OK, that's not cannon but I'm not an expert).... Karsus kills a god by accident.... A trio of mortal heroes ascend to Godhood profoundly effecting religion everywhere.... *Ahem* . . . You know the first events I think of when I hear the name Forgotten Realms? The list of things up there are all at the top.That's two obscure fables of the legendary past, a fancy of video game designers not much concerned with Realmslore, a hugely hyped novel event which set up an unsustainable precedent to the setting's great detriment, and two recent contrived upheavals done partly to fix that damage by consciously perpetuating it.As to the epic level characters thing - I'm sure most people are not epic level characters. Just a very large proportion of the ones given stat block in the sourcebooks (also a good number of those with only quick entries or level breakdowns). It certainly doesn't do anything to dispel the perception.No, and when that was done, the promotion for the 3E Realms in Dragon and wizards.com echoed many of the same concerns as now. Baffling.I think a lot of people on the boards feel betrayed because they have this deep involvement with the concept of the old Realms. I don't blame them. I don't think their view of the Realms is the same as those of more recent generations.For many of us these are just the latest in a line of foldings and spindlings of the Realms in favour of a manufactured demand for RSEs in the novel line, contrived 'iconic characters', managers and designers' gimmicky pet ideas, conformance to the latest norms of the ruleset, and, at times, contempt for the readership. Despite many excellent individual books, the Realms has never consistently been allowed to be itself. I don't underestimate a newcomer's difficulty in seeing through all this to the real setting underneath. That real setting, though, is a fine and beautiful thing worth digging through to, and there's good help available at forums like this.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-06-08, 09:26 PM	Well Lando not everywhere is Epic in The Realm and like The wise and beautiful) Rino mentioned "canon" is what you make it I've been playing for 7 years and I've never but one time seen El or Drizzt or the like, and the onlyI saw some one, It was Artemis and my I didn'rt know who it was until AFTER the session. Bottomline is: Its YOUR REALMS brother don't let "the man" shove "canon" up your nose ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 02:19 PM	*Ahem*.... Time of Troubles... Spellplague.... Lloth disapears.... Armies of some demented Bhaalspawn tear up Tethyr (OK, that's not cannon but I'm not an expert).... Karsus kills a god by accident.... A trio of mortal heroes ascend to Godhood profoundly effecting religion everywhere.... *Ahem* RSEs have been played up over the years, but many of us believe that is a mistake on the part of TSR/WotC. And yes, for each of those events you mentioned, there are countless smaller, more localized events going on. Not bad in itself, no. There is a difference between co-operation and being asked nicely to do something by your boss on the other hand. Especially if your boss is twice the level of your almost epic level party himself. Perhaps this wasn't made clear enough, but not all "famous" or "important" characters in the Realms of such high levels. You gave an example of a 16th level thief. That thief would be more powerful, level-wise, than a lot of rulers and other "important" folk. Don't get me wrong here - we alter whatever we feel needs to be altered. As I mentioned before, none of us are Realmslore experts or too hung up on sticking to some sort of established canon. The fact that we semi-regularly feel the need to do that may say something about the setting though. With all due respect, I still think it says more about you and your group than the setting. I don't mean that as an insult, just an (admittedly blunt) observation.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 02:24 PM	The Old Grey Box was a long time ago, and I've never had any personal conversations with Ed about the subject. He lives in another country. Catching up over coffee is a little difficult ;) Ed regularly discusses the Realms online over on Candlekeep.com. This brings me back to the points about perception. I think a lot of people on the boards feel betrayed because they have this deep involvement with the concept of the old Realms. I don't blame them. I don't think their view of the Realms is the same as those of more recent generations. Well, as far as Realms fans goes, I'm of a more "recent" generation myself--I got into the setting 7-8 years ago. That sounds like a long time, but it isn't compared to some people--some people have been with it for 20 years! And in spite of being "newer", I still don't like the upcoming setting changes, and share a lot of views with people who were fans a lot longer than I have been. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 02:28 PM	Well Lando not everywhere is Epic in The Realm and like The wise and beautiful) Rino mentioned "canon" is what you make it... I'm so flattered.:embarrass And yes, you're supposed to make the setting your own!:) Even the FRCS says as much.
Landro 02-07-08, 04:05 PM	Ed regularly discusses the Realms online over on Candlekeep.com. Sure. That's great for those who are really interested, and good on Ed for putting himself out there for the community. I feel the need to point out that only the tiniest proportion of any real world community bother with online forums though. The fact that Ed does this has no impact on the overwhelming majority of players out there, so he isn't really in a position to change the perception of the Realms that WotC thinks has developed. At least not without changing the material released in the sourcebooks. With all due respect, I still think it says more about you and your group than the setting. I don't mean that as an insult, just an (admittedly blunt) observation.It's no blunter than observing one of the most proliffic posters in the Forgotten Realms boards may be blind to the opinions or concerns as those with less of a vested interest in the Realms (i.e - WotC's market base) ;) I'm not trying to demonise the FR or complain that it's horribly unbalanced or biased - just illustrate that there is a reason why certain perceptions which apparently trouble the setting developers are there. The enlightened among us may see things differently, but enlightement isn't a common state of being. I'm paraphrasing Monte Cook here, but I remember reading an article by him once where he observed that games designers don't develop things for great DMs, but for average ones. If average ones see these things as issues then there is a commercial reason to change it.
Faraer 02-07-08, 04:22 PM	Some of the perceptions you're talking about can understandably be miscontrued from the sources, others I think have nothing to do with the sources and are mere internet Chinese whispers that are only widespread among some RPG messageboard readers. There's a commercial reason to do something, but the arguments for the necessity of the pieces of the 4E overhaul don't hold up, as so many less drastic measures, many of which have been discussed here and some of which have been advocated for a lot of years, haven't been attempted. It's like a philosopher being forced to change her philosophy because her publisher didn't explain it well enough and some people misunderstood it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 07:32 PM	Sure. That's great for those who are really interested, and good on Ed for putting himself out there for the community. I feel the need to point out that only the tiniest proportion of any real world community bother with online forums though. The fact that Ed does this has no impact on the overwhelming majority of players out there, so he isn't really in a position to change the perception of the Realms that WotC thinks has developed. At least not without changing the material released in the sourcebooks. Oh, I'm aware that no online community can be said to represent the majority of any specific group. However, Ed is certainly there (on Candlekeep.com) if you want to ask him a question.:) It's no blunter than observing one of the most proliffic posters in the Forgotten Realms boards may be blind to the opinions or concerns as those with less of a vested interest in the Realms (i.e - WotC's market base) ;) I'm not trying to demonise the FR or complain that it's horribly unbalanced or biased - just illustrate that there is a reason why certain perceptions which apparently trouble the setting developers are there. The enlightened among us may see things differently, but enlightement isn't a common state of being. I'm paraphrasing Monte Cook here, but I remember reading an article by him once where he observed that games designers don't develop things for great DMs, but for average ones. If average ones see these things as issues then there is a commercial reason to change it. Like I said, you're free to have your own opinions and preferences regarding the setting, and Rich Baker has said (in his Q&A thread) that perceptions about the Realms are part of the problem, even if many perceptions people have about the Realms are not in fact true. So, I see it as my duty (sort of) to point out that many of those perceptions are false (and explain why) whenever I can.:) Same goes for a lot of other posters here, too.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 07:36 PM	Some of the perceptions you're talking about can understandably be miscontrued from the sources, others I think have nothing to do with the sources and are mere internet Chinese whispers that are only widespread among some RPG messageboard readers. There's a commercial reason to do something, but the arguments for the necessity of the pieces of the 4E overhaul don't hold up, as so many less drastic measures, many of which have been discussed here and some of which have been advocated for a lot of years, haven't been attempted. It's like a philosopher being forced to change her philosophy because her publisher didn't explain it well enough and some people misunderstood it. Indeed--and as some of us have said elsewhere, many of the new 4E elements could have been introduced into the setting without something as heavy-handed as the Spellplague. An example I used in another thread was placing the dragonborn kingdom on one of the unused portions of land on Toril (and they *do* exist!) instead of wiping out Unther and plopping Tymanther on the newly "wiped" land.
Bonzai 02-11-08, 08:23 PM	The spells are often mightier than their core expansion counterparts. This has two effects on the game as far as we see it. The first is that spellcasters become disproportionately more powerful with each new supplement. The second is that gear (for everybody) becomes an even more important factor in your PC’s life than it does for a “regular” PC. That is more of a mechanic issue, than an issue with the setting it's self. As another poster said, that is part of being a high magic setting. Still, it shouldn't be an issue. Remember what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Your NPC's can have some of those uber spells and gear too, and can still make life very unpleasant for your NPCs. I find in my group that making my encounters CR rating about 2 above thier level tends to work really well. Do I blame the setting? No. I contribute it to my players ability to min-max, their 10+ years of experience, and the fact that they have played together for a very long time. but we’ve found that the game slows down dramatically in the higher levels, and that’s less fun. Tends to be true in any setting, not only the realms. Doing a dual wielding fighters attack can take 5 minutes with everything that can become involved. Because there are so many epic creatures floating around, your 16th level rogue just doesn’t seem special. He’s a virtual god to the peasants, but he barely rates as a blip on the list of things you should really worry about in Faerun. In fact, I’m almost certain there are bar tenders with more levels than your PC. It’s exciting when an opponent is much more powerful than an individual PC, but it’s demoralizing when a dozen occupants of a city who just lounge around all day are as well. It's just like the old saying, no matter how high you climb, there is always some one higher. It's true in the real world, and it's true in the realms as well. This begs the question as well – what of all the ruins and ancient evils that lie around Faerun? One would think that with this many high level characters around said ruins and evils would have likely been cleared or vanquished sometime in the last 30 generations. Because as you said, they are lounging around all day. :P It’s difficult to avoid the feeling that everywhere has already been explored before, or that if you do find somewhere that hasn’t been mapped out it might well be when the next supplement comes out in 6 months time. I have never had a problem finding a place to plop down a village, town, wizards tower, dungeon, dragon's lair, small lake, or whatever. If a place has been explored before, so what? Thats how those monsters get their treasure. From those people who have been there before. Heck, I'm pretty sure thats how ruins are made. As for having cannon changing something after your campaign takes place... Well it happens. It's living setting, and it is constantly evolving. My house rule is that if a published source latter contridicts something that happened in game, then we go by what happened in game. If the DM decides that a powerful evil is about to start rampaging through the North and the party of 20th level characters are the only ones heroic enough to stop it, then he has to explain why Alustriel, Laeral, Dove, Storm, Elminster, Khelben, Quile, Mr Do’ Urden and co have all gone on holiday. Alternatively, he can include them in some way in the story.... I hear this arguement all the time on these boards, and always it strikes me as lazy DM'ing (no offense). First off, the players are using player knowledge as PC knowledge. Outside of their home towns, the general population is more or less unaware of Mystra's chosen. Without some bardic knowledge, knowledge local (if applicable), or knowledge religion, the pc's have no knowledge of these people. And since the Chosen are the primary culprits of this debate, I ask this. What is their primary directive from Mystra? The answer is the protection, and proliferation of the weave. If it doesn't concern those two things, there is no reason for the chosen to get involved. The exception is if it's in their home town. Of course they will protect their home. Case in point, no atempt to take over Silverymoon can be done without taking Alustriel into consideration. So as a DM, you have to do some work. My favorite response to that situation is this; Give the Bad guys some credit. Yup, you heard me. These are supposed to be ruthless evil masterminds right? So it is highly unlikely that the presence of an epic spellcaster/chosen/daughter of a godess/ruler of the city that they want to conquer has escaped their notice. Adjust their plans accordingly. It takes a little thought, but it can be done, and it can be done well. Sorry this got so long, but this is a sticking point of mine. Most of the so called "problems" with the realms are solved with only a little thought. The only problem is that a lot of people don't want to think for themselves these days. Oh, and on a side note. The chosen are currently meddeling do-gooders in their spare time right now. It's a hobby. They do it between running Mystra's errands and runing whatever place they live in. Once Mystra's gone, then that frees up all their time. So in 4th edition, they have even more incentive do be just what you fear them to be. ok, I'm done.
Landro 02-11-08, 10:47 PM	I hear this arguement all the time on these boards, and always it strikes me as lazy DM'ing (no offense). First off, the players are using player knowledge as PC knowledge. Outside of their home towns, the general population is more or less unaware of Mystra's chosen. Without some bardic knowledge, knowledge local (if applicable), or knowledge religion, the pc's have no knowledge of these people. Emphasis should really be on the words “general population”. The PC’s can’t really be included there. Also, how many parties don’t have either Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge (religion), knowledge(local) or knowledge(history) somewhere in there? How about having backgrounds that lend to one of the PC’s being likely to know? And since the Chosen are the primary culprits of this debate, I ask this. What is their primary directive from Mystra? The answer is the protection, and proliferation of the weave. If it doesn't concern those two things, there is no reason for the chosen to get involved.You mean like forming a number of secret societies devoted to fighting evil….? How about ruling not-so-secret societies devoted to doing good, and by extension fighting evil when it get’s too close? The exception is if it's in their home town. Of course they will protect their home. Case in point, no atempt to take over Silverymoon can be done without taking Alustriel into consideration. So as a DM, you have to do some work. My favorite response to that situation is this; Give the Bad guys some credit. Yup, you heard me. These are supposed to be ruthless evil masterminds right? So it is highly unlikely that the presence of an epic spellcaster/chosen/daughter of a godess/ruler of the city that they want to conquer has escaped their notice. Adjust their plans accordingly. It takes a little thought, but it can be done, and it can be done well. Sorry this got so long, but this is a sticking point of mine. Most of the so called "problems" with the realms are solved with only a little thought. The only problem is that a lot of people don't want to think for themselves these days.I think you’ve missed my point here actually. It isn’t that you have to do something with them that we consider to be a problem – it’s that the NPC’s are so powerful that anything that can believably threaten them will probably walk over a party of 20th level characters. As I mentioned earlier, Elmisnter alone is CR 39. Certainly there are ways you could do it, and do it well. I’m not denying that. What I am saying is that you risk running into a situation where a plot can feel contrived to explain away that problem. You also risk the players (and note I said palyers – the real people at the table) feeling like they’re the second string heroes who were only let out because the first string ones were injured. If the NPC’s are not “taken care of” in some way, and the city of Silverymoon or Waterdeep come to our mighty heroes with a task that apparently only they can solve, a player may be forgiven for wondering just what the uber NPC’s are doing with their time, as they’re twice the level of the PC’s and already established hero’s in their own right. That is more of a mechanic issue, than an issue with the setting it's self. As another poster said, that is part of being a high magic setting. Still, it shouldn't be an issue. Remember what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Your NPC's can have some of those uber spells and gear too, and can still make life very unpleasant for your NPCs. I find in my group that making my encounters CR rating about 2 above thier level tends to work really well. Do I blame the setting? No. I contribute it to my players ability to min-max, their 10+ years of experience, and the fact that they have played together for a very long time. So what you’re saying is that mechanical issues caused by setting specific features are not the fault of the setting? Or are you saying that they don't effect the flavour of the setting, because if you are then I beg to differ? Oh, and your group rocks. I hate to break this to you, but that’s par for the course, and has nothing to do with the perceptions of the Realms that apparently have been causing the game developers headaches.
SATA 02-11-08, 11:21 PM	I understand your point of view and this is becoming a war zone almost but anyway I decided to post at least once. High Magic Yes it is and depending on your taste, that could be a good thing or a bad one. But besides that, Faerun is well versed, the own setting offer some solutions for that, you can set your campaign in a region not so overwhelm by magic, like Amn and Aglarond, where spellcasters don't enjoy the trust of the common men, that way the magic is not so abundant and you won't see it in an everyday basis. Also, you can play in The Shining South that have some areas not so civilized or The Old Empires 'cuz with the constant warfare, the prominent force are sweat and steel. Or play politics, with heavy role-playing sessions. High Fantasy Yes it have Epic locales but not as much as you may think and is not true that every bartender, innkeeper, logger, etc. is a +10th level character, they may be some but you can be sure they have a background story for that. Also, there is the other side of the "gold piece", some NPCs that being low in levels have a well respected position in a community or even major or lords of some place, like in Thetyr, the Queen is a 13th level character and the King an 8th level character. Details Is a huge plus, and not every place is so well explored as the other, like Lands of Intrigue, no major info in 3e besides some tidbits here and there, also The Vilhon Reach, besides some novels, that like you said, you don't read much, then you have some places to work with, having the option to elaborate as much stuff as you like, also you can work around the established lore and "canon" as I do and if something don't match or trunk something that you have done or plan to do, feel free to evade it or change it. Bad Guys Cool huh, but not all are masterminds and all mighty, there are some "naive" or rather not so brilliant villains out there. The only issue, according everyone tastes and points of view, is that in the coming events some villains are winning and some good guys seems like they had the day off or they get dumb just to allow something to happen. Good Guys Look above, also I realize that there are some NPCs that overshadow some PCs but that isn't bad 'cuz it generate some interesting role-playing opportunities and if they see action just don't let it be the same mission, if it is then try to work it from two different angles and if there is just one, then think about this, if a Chosen of Mystra or any other NPCs above character level 15th or 20th are involve in an adventure then it isn't a job for PCs character level 10th or less, so it will be around the same levels and if a group of PCs let a/some NPCs take their spotlight I guess that's their problem.
Bonzai 02-12-08, 02:52 PM	Emphasis should really be on the words “general population”. The PC’s can’t really be included there. Also, how many parties don’t have either Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge (religion), knowledge(local) or knowledge(history) somewhere in there? How about having backgrounds that lend to one of the PC’s being likely to know? Ok, so one of your PC's rolls his knowledge check, and says, "Egad's, I have a brilliant solution to our dilema. You see there is the group of ultra powerful beings called the Chosen of Mystra. They are notorious do gooders. I am sure they will come rushing to stop this hobgoblin raid on the villiage. All we have to do is sit back and watch". Lol, in my campaign, the results of that would be quite interesting. My answer to that question is, when your computer goes down, does Bill Gates come and fix it? He certainly has the ability and power, so why doesn't he? Same thing with the Chosen. They have bigger fish to fry. And again, if you decide to place your campaign in a particular place, then you as a dm have to account for the big players of the area. If the problem is big enough to draw the city watch, why aren't they involved? Same problem, just different scale. You mean like forming a number of secret societies devoted to fighting evil….? How about ruling not-so-secret societies devoted to doing good, and by extension fighting evil when it get’s too close? Like I said, that is more of a hobby to most of them. How much day to day involvement do they really have? Very likely its very little. Khelben and Laerial have an academy to run, Simbul her kingdom, Alustriel her city, El is busy being sent to hell, being attacked by sharrens, being trapped in wierd pocket planes, having ill legitimate children with dragons, etc.. Certainly there are ways you could do it, and do it well. I’m not denying that. What I am saying is that you risk running into a situation where a plot can feel contrived to explain away that problem.... If the NPC’s are not “taken care of” in some way, and the city of Silverymoon or Waterdeep come to our mighty heroes with a task that apparently only they can solve, a player may be forgiven for wondering just what the uber NPC’s are doing with their time, as they’re twice the level of the PC’s and already established hero’s in their own right. Going back to to the Alustriel example. She is just one person, and can only be one place at one time. More over, she is ruler over a city, which restricts what direct actions that she can take. When she moves, she has to gauge what ramifications her actions may have on the entire regin. Pc's have a certain level of freedom that she does not. So what you’re saying is that mechanical issues caused by setting specific features are not the fault of the setting? Or are you saying that they don't effect the flavour of the setting, because if you are then I beg to differ? Not exactly. What I am saying is that those things are a consequence of playing in a High Magic, High Fantasy setting. They are a part of the flavor of the setting. If it becomes a big problem for you and your group, then you may want to question if this particular setting is right for you. Perhaps a lower magic setting would be more fun? Thats for you to decide. Then again, your the DM, so access to these powerful spells and magic items is largley in your hands.
Alediran 02-12-08, 03:58 PM	Emphasis should really be on the words “general population”. The PC’s can’t really be included there. Also, how many parties don’t have either Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge (religion), knowledge(local) or knowledge(history) somewhere in there? How about having backgrounds that lend to one of the PC’s being likely to know? Knowledge about the Chosens is over 35 DC. At the time you can beat that DC (unless you got lucky with a natural 20) your party can handle 80% of the threats to a place. You mean like forming a number of secret societies devoted to fighting evil….? How about ruling not-so-secret societies devoted to doing good, and by extension fighting evil when it get’s too close? The Chosens are devoted to the spread of magic, the Harpers, the Moonstars and the other groups deal with threats that are related to magic in one shape or the other. Evil societies don't want magic to be spread because it gives power to the people they want to dominate/destroy (read Elminster: the making of a Mage to see a time where tyranical wizards ruled the lands, except for them there were few spellcasters). Therefore those ideologies clash (in FR the difference of ideas is more important than alignment) If a threat to X hammlet doesn't involves magic then it's not a priority for those groups, which are usually the type of threats low lvl characters deal with. I think you’ve missed my point here actually. It isn’t that you have to do something with them that we consider to be a problem – it’s that the NPC’s are so powerful that anything that can believably threaten them will probably walk over a party of 20th level characters. As I mentioned earlier, Elmisnter alone is CR 39. A Single CR 11 Beholder can kill an epic party. NPCs don't know their CRs, stop thinking in numbers alone and think in NPCs ideas, personality and quirks to know if X NPC will act or not. Certainly there are ways you could do it, and do it well. I’m not denying that. What I am saying is that you risk running into a situation where a plot can feel contrived to explain away that problem. You also risk the players (and note I said palyers – the real people at the table) feeling like they’re the second string heroes who were only let out because the first string ones were injured. That's what happens on any living setting. Only places like Middle Earth have one shot heroic parties that are the only hope. In a living setting you'll have competing adventuring parties as enemies too. A living setting behaves like Real Life. If you don't like that then go play a static setting like Eberron. If the NPC’s are not “taken care of” in some way, and the city of Silverymoon or Waterdeep come to our mighty heroes with a task that apparently only they can solve, a player may be forgiven for wondering just what the uber NPC’s are doing with their time, as they’re twice the level of the PC’s and already established hero’s in their own right. I'll give you an example taken from my campaign. In chapter 1 the characters were reunited in Silverymoon by a Sun Elf Wizard (Alediran) who was tasked by Alustriel to find what was happening in the lumberjacking operations (authorized by the High Forest elves), since the possibility of elves attacking the camp was high, Alustriel chosed an elf for that job. Alediran knew danger could be near, so he hired a group of people to help him in the task, he chose elves again because he knew they would be less threatening to the Wood Elves. And there you got the begining of the main plot of chapter 1 of my campaign. IN SILVERYMOON, WITH ALUSTRIEL JUST 10 MINUTES AWAY. So what you’re saying is that mechanical issues caused by setting specific features are not the fault of the setting? Or are you saying that they don't effect the flavour of the setting, because if you are then I beg to differ? You can have 3000000000000000000 20th+ lvl characters and you can still find a reason for the player's characters to be the heroes of the adventure (not in the whole world because nobody is that important, not even 41st lvl Ioulaum. And if you want to feel even more small, go to the planes, where true powers of good and evil exist)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 10:11 PM	Emphasis should really be on the words “general population”. The PC’s can’t really be included there. Also, how many parties don’t have either Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge (religion), knowledge(local) or knowledge(history) somewhere in there? How about having backgrounds that lend to one of the PC’s being likely to know? Either way, what's the big deal? Just because a PC knows the Chosen exist(which, as pointed out, might not even be the case) doesn't mean they know all about said Chosen, how they work, or what they do with their time. Do most PCs spend their time thinking about the Chosen of Mystra, or are they focused on their own lives and adventures? I'd tend to assume the latter. Just because some players are obsessed with the Chosen of Mystra and the fear that they will be overshadowed by the doesn't mean their in-game PCs would be. You mean like forming a number of secret societies devoted to fighting evil….? How about ruling not-so-secret societies devoted to doing good, and by extension fighting evil when it get’s too close? That doesn't apply to each Chosen...and of course, if these are secret societies, it's unlikely the PCs would know about them. Certainly there are ways you could do it, and do it well. I’m not denying that. What I am saying is that you risk running into a situation where a plot can feel contrived to explain away that problem. You also risk the players (and note I said palyers – the real people at the table) feeling like they’re the second string heroes who were only let out because the first string ones were injured. There are options besides making the Chosen injured. How about, say, cooperating with them? Not every player would dislike that, you know--I would likely enjoy it. Remember what you said about loud voices on the internet not representing the majority. Just because some people on the internet complain loudly about the Chosen of Mystra doesn't mean the majority of Realms players dislike these characters or feel overshadowed by them. And of course, the above would only even apply to areas where the Chosen are prominent, anyway.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 10:17 PM	Oh yeah, and the secret societies mentioned? Khelben's interests tend not to be all about "shiny goodness". His Moonstars have evil vampires as members and/or agents.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 01:04 AM	Oh yeah, and the secret societies mentioned? Khelben's interests tend not to be all about "shiny goodness". His Moonstars have evil vampires as members and/or agents. -What an awesome group, they are/were.
Flicker 02-13-08, 10:42 AM	Hi Landro, I can't help feeling that you've missed what the Realms is about, sure Elminster may be a CR40 wizard and there's all the chosen etc etc etc, but he's 1 man, and the realms are huge, don't believe me, dig out the old green box set and it shows you that the Grand ol US of A fits in about 1/5th of the realms as a whole excluding Moonshae,Kara Tur,Zakhara and Evermeet. Now tell me that your 16th level rogue isn't special? In Waterdeep, maybe not, but you know there are approximately 1million people in that city at certain points of time, there are bound to be a higher number of higher level characters. I get the feeling that you want the players to know about Elminster/Chosen but not to overshadow your players, well the reason they don't fix everything is because there's a lot more evil than there is good to fight it, again don't believe me, how many organisations are there that actively promote either themselves or and agenda that could be described as evil, a dozen? more? and the good guys have what? 1. The Harpers- its the only active organisation, mostly the others are passive/too area aligned. So what, i here you say Elminster could take out the Zhents himself if he wanted to, well yes he could, but then he also knows that such large acts don't always work the way you want them to, some other group could just come in to take there place twice as bad, its about dealing with a known quantity and then affecting the wider viewpoint so that eventually the Zhents will have to give up because of the masses, not just 1 man.
Landro 02-13-08, 02:40 PM	Hi Landro, I can't help feeling that you've missed what the Realms is about, sure Elminster may be a CR40 wizard and there's all the chosen etc etc etc, but he's 1 man, and the realms are huge, don't believe me, dig out the old green box set and it shows you that the Grand ol US of A fits in about 1/5th of the realms as a whole excluding Moonshae,Kara Tur,Zakhara and Evermeet. This is my point - my perceptions are based soley off the 3.x source material, and these are what I and the others in my gaming group see as the defining features of the Realms from those sources. I doubt we're alone there. It's different to what the Realms aficionados (and no, I can't spell in anything other than English, so I have no idea if this is correct...:P ) see, but there's no surprises there. Given that the old green box set would be virtually unattainable today, and would require more time, effort and money than I'm prepared to devote to something several editions old - I'm running with the philosophy that the Realm are what they've been made out to be by the current developers in the current edition. That doesn't seem to be an unreasonable position to me. It seems that comment on the what the Realms are seems to be dominated by a small number of vocal people here. I don't have a problem with that but I thought it might be refreshing to see a different (and apparently quite unpopular) viewpoint. Just because some people on the internet complain loudly about the Chosen of Mystra doesn't mean the majority of Realms players dislike these characters or feel overshadowed by them. I really don't think I'm complaining loudly here. I've posted in a grand total of 2 threads IIRC, and the other was to ask some questions about the spellplague. Compared to the people on here complaining about the changes that's nothing. I was just using the Chosen of Mystra as a well known example as well. They're not the only chosen in the game by a long shot. They're just the most central to the franchise, and therefore they've been largely statted and placed in sourcebooks. It's not even that they're chosen that's the issue in our eyes, just that they're all a very powerful presence, and that the implication is that all the other many gods in the Realms can have as many powerful champions wandering around.
Landro 02-13-08, 02:45 PM	Oh yeah, and the secret societies mentioned? Khelben's interests tend not to be all about "shiny goodness". His Moonstars have evil vampires as members and/or agents.You clearly have a deep knowledge of the Realms, so I'll accept that at face value. Where did you find that information if you don't mind me asking though? It's not something I recall seeing anywhere.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 03:25 PM	This is my point - my perceptions are based soley off the 3.x source material, and these are what I and the others in my gaming group see as the defining features of the Realms from those sources. I doubt we're alone there. It's different to what the Realms aficionados (and no, I can't spell in anything other than English, so I have no idea if this is correct...:P ) see, but there's no surprises there. -When I started playing D&D, and began absorbing Forgotten Realms knowledge, I did not see this. You clearly have a deep knowledge of the Realms, so I'll accept that at face value. Where did you find that information if you don't mind me asking though? It's not something I recall seeing anywhere. -The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and Cloak and Dagger, I believe, talks about the Moonstars.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:54 PM	-What an awesome group, they are/were. Indeed.:D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 08:01 PM	I really don't think I'm complaining loudly here. I've posted in a grand total of 2 threads IIRC, and the other was to ask some questions about the spellplague. Compared to the people on here complaining about the changes that's nothing. I think you've missed my point. I wasn't talking about you personally, Landro. But all the people complaining about the changes? There were just as many people, if not more, constantly complaining about the Chosen of Mystra (and heck, a lot of them still are). I consider them to be loud people (or, let's just say extremely vocal people) on the internet who are NOT necessarily indicative of the majority. Just because a bunch of people on the internet like to complain about the Chosen and say that these fictional characters ruin their games doesn't mean the silent majority of Realms players out there feel the same way. It's not even that they're chosen that's the issue in our eyes, just that they're all a very powerful presence, and that the implication is that all the other many gods in the Realms can have as many powerful champions wandering around. I would like to point out that the Chosen of Mystra were originally meant to be unique. In my Realms, not every god has "Chosen" the way Mystra does. The Chosen aren't "Mystra's favorite people", they were created as a check on her power. They are also not required to be good. And like I said before, maybe in your Realms Mystra doesn't have Chosen? What would be wrong with that? I think that would be the best idea if the Chosen really are causing your group that much anxiety.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 08:03 PM	-The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and Cloak and Dagger, I believe, talks about the Moonstars. Yes, and the 3E Waterdeep Sourcebook (City of Splendors).
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:06 PM	Yes, and the 3E Waterdeep Sourcebook (City of Splendors). -Don't have that one, so, yes, that one too!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 08:07 PM	If you don't have that book, LK, and you like Waterdeep, you might want to consider getting it.:)
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:27 PM	If you don't have that book, LK, and you like Waterdeep, you might want to consider getting it.:) -Nah, I really don't care for it one way or another. It simply is what it is, and that's all. I never understood why people felt so strongly for it.
Old Sage 02-13-08, 09:16 PM	You clearly have a deep knowledge of the Realms, so I'll accept that at face value. Where did you find that information if you don't mind me asking though? It's not something I recall seeing anywhere.See Cloak & Dagger, Steven Schend's Blackstaff, his numerous posts at Candlekeep, the 3.5e Waterdeep sourcebook, and Elaine Cunningham's "New Olamn" article in DRAGON #335.
Flicker 02-14-08, 11:38 AM	[QUOTE=Landro;15083177]This is my point - my perceptions are based soley off the 3.x source material, and these are what I and the others in my gaming group see as the defining features of the Realms from those sources. I doubt we're alone there. It's different to what the Realms aficionados (and no, I can't spell in anything other than English, so I have no idea if this is correct...:P ) see, but there's no surprises there. Given that the old green box set would be virtually unattainable today, and would require more time, effort and money than I'm prepared to devote to something several editions old - I'm running with the philosophy that the Realm are what they've been made out to be by the current developers in the current edition. That doesn't seem to be an unreasonable position to me. It seems that comment on the what the Realms are seems to be dominated by a small number of vocal people here. I don't have a problem with that but I thought it might be refreshing to see a different (and apparently quite unpopular) viewpoint. I really don't think I'm complaining loudly here. I've posted in a grand total of 2 threads IIRC, and the other was to ask some questions about the spellplague. Compared to the people on here complaining about the changes that's nothing. QUOTE] Ok Landro, I take your point, thanks for explaining that part, let me try to put a 3.5 hat on and go from there. 3 and 3.5 IMHO changed the way D&D played fundamentally from a game that had significant holes 1e & 2e to a game that tried to cover all the holes. Again IMHO, this led to an emphasis on Roll-play rather than role-play, part of this was deliberate believe for the designers to introduce more people to the hobby who didn't want the whole 'acting' thing while at the same time clean up several glaring rules problems, believe me a behir in 2e is crap as a monster. Now I'm not opening the argument as to whether it was a good thing, but generally speaking it means that a lot of the material published in 3e/3.5e is heavy in statistics and prestige classes and spells etc and quite light on the lore of FR. There are exceptions, but generally, the history part of a sourcebook has been the only 'heavy' lore area and we've ended up with lots of different prestige classes (arachnomancers,berserkers etc etc) as various designers have added various things as to what they perceived areas to be. Now again IMHO, the majority of realms material occurred during 1/2e, in fact there where circa 16 sourcebooks dealing with different areas/things in the realms before we really even stated, the generally named FR series, FR1 Waterdeep and the North been the 1st, now there are still a lot of these about, certainly here in the UK although oop they are still obtainable and ebay always has several copies. These were further filled by massive boxed sets 'The North,Tethyr and Calimsham, Elminster's Ecologies etc. My belief therefore is the developers for 3e looked at what had gone before and said 'We need to convert the major players to the new system and give enough 'value for money' so it doesn't look like we've just ripped off everybody who bought the City of Delights boxed set with another book detailing the same information less than 5 years later. So where am i going with this>? Well, again IMHO, using that approach, the developers have unfortunately promoted people like the chosen etc to an overbearing position where the feedback they receive from the majority of players of 3e/3.5e is that they don't like the chosen etc. So forgive me when I say I don't agree with your viewpoint, because I don't think you've got all the facts as to what the realms is or is about, now call me outdated fine, but the way the developers seem to have gone about this is to listen to players such as yourselves, and say, ok this is the majority, lets rip up the realms and give them what they want. Now I would have preferred for them to have said, you know what, we recognise we may have emphasised things in a different way in 3/3.5 so what we'll do is present a balance viewpoint and engage with our customer base, but ensure that our customer base is informed about the changes we are going to make, that way everybody can have input, we can get them to understand the strategic changes we are making and why we feel we need them and there can be a forum and discussion for change and we will take note of what our customers say. Because although they changed the mechanics for 3/3.5 they didn't change what is important, the flavour, the lore the whole reason people IMHO like to play in the realms, but this time, its like we'll just rip it up and start again! Now there are plenty of people who are going to disagree with me on several points but i'd like to think Karsus,Rin,Dan and a few others would agree with the overall sentiment of this post. Finally, let me make this point to you, if you vote for somebody, is it what they say that is important or what they do?
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 12:12 PM	Because although they changed the mechanics for 3/3.5 they didn't change what is important, the flavour, the lore the whole reason people IMHO like to play in the realms, but this time, its like we'll just rip it up and start again! Now there are plenty of people who are going to disagree with me on several points but i'd like to think Karsus,Rin,Dan and a few others would agree with the overall sentiment of this post. -Yes, I can go along with that notion. The transition from 2e to 3e (not counting the mechanics, of course), was mostly smooth, with only a few hiccups here and there (infravision, Elven High Magic, Dwarven Wizards, etc.). The transition from 3e to 4e, thus far, has been quite bumpy, and it expected to get even moreso.
Alediran 02-14-08, 12:14 PM	An Iron Maiden concert will be smoother I think.
Landro 02-14-08, 02:41 PM	So forgive me when I say I don't agree with your viewpoint, because I don't think you've got all the facts as to what the realms is or is about, now call me outdated fine, but the way the developers seem to have gone about this is to listen to players such as yourselves, and say, ok this is the majority, lets rip up the realms and give them what they want. Now I would have preferred for them to have said, you know what, we recognise we may have emphasised things in a different way in 3/3.5 so what we'll do is present a balance viewpoint and engage with our customer base, but ensure that our customer base is informed about the changes we are going to make, that way everybody can have input, we can get them to understand the strategic changes we are making and why we feel we need them and there can be a forum and discussion for change and we will take note of what our customers say. Because although they changed the mechanics for 3/3.5 they didn't change what is important, the flavour, the lore the whole reason people IMHO like to play in the realms, but this time, its like we'll just rip it up and start again! You are forgiven for your differing point of view:tongue: Seriously, thank you for the very informative post. That answers a few questions.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 03:12 PM	Now there are plenty of people who are going to disagree with me on several points but i'd like to think Karsus,Rin,Dan and a few others would agree with the overall sentiment of this post. I do.:) Very much so.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 02:56 PM	Actually, I think that the problem with DMs is that they really just want to make their own trouble. Realms fans are very much like comic book fans in that you know how big a fan they are of a setting by how much they hate it. But yes, I think that the important thing is the PCs are the heroes of the game. They don't have to be the only ones but today's plot needs them.
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 03:03 PM	Realms fans are very much like comic book fans in that you know how big a fan they are of a setting by how much they hate it. -There are only a few points I don't like too much. At the same time, I like the setting a lot...
Flicker 02-18-08, 11:26 AM	You are forgiven for your differing point of view:tongue: Seriously, thank you for the very informative post. That answers a few questions. In the spirit of good will Landro, the ubequitous Ebay has a copy fo the green boxed set for sale at present, bidding was about $15 of your greenbacks i believe they are called, plus plenty of other highly recommended realms articles. Oh and I have a spare copy of Elves of Evermeet somewhere if you want it, we can work it out if you want.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 11:36 AM	-And Mr. Misc says we're all a bunch of curs...;)
Landro 02-18-08, 10:48 PM	In the spirit of good will Landro, the ubequitous Ebay has a copy fo the green boxed set for sale at present, bidding was about $15 of your greenbacks i believe they are called, plus plenty of other highly recommended realms articles. Oh and I have a spare copy of Elves of Evermeet somewhere if you want it, we can work it out if you want.While I appreciate the gesture I think I'll turn you down there - life is already placing a few too many demands on my time for another project, but thank you. For what it's worth, I'm not an American either. :cool: