Philosophy in the Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Philosophy in the Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
markheus
03-19-04, 04:24 PM I was curious what you guys think about some of the other knowledge disciplines in the realms. Sure, with magic you can learn anything you want to - but what about mathematics, botany, chemistry ... etc.

Also, I was curious what a philosopher would be like in the realms. What types of questions would they ask? What would be some of the disciplines within the field be? What about epistemology? WIth the ability to commune with deities it doesn't seem like there would be any real philosophic debate. One could just go and ask your deity and they'd give you the right answer.... probably....

Any comments?
Faraer
03-19-04, 04:53 PM On the latter point, The Hooded One, she said Reading all of these posts, I'm reminded of what Ed of the Greenwood ALWAYS told us when we (I'm one of his original players) asked about the gods. He'd spread his hands and ask, "Roleplay?"
So we'd sigh, go and find a temple or powerful priest, ask what we wanted to know, and get an answer.
Then we'd ask Ed if the answer was true, and he'd smile and reply, "How can you ever know? Even if a god PERSONALLY answered you, how can you trust them not to have an agenda, and be manipulating you by the answer they give? Remember that: how can you ever know?"
:)
Florin Falconhand had an 'in' with Mielikki, and once asked her this. She (Ed as DM playing her, of course) smiled and said, "Of course I'm not giving you truth, Florin...and even *I* can never be sure what is truth, and what is merely my perception. Think not on such things, most loyal of mortals, for that way lies madness."
Still good advice, I think.Our world has magic and deities too, or so premodern and early-modern people experienced and believed. In the Realms, some folk enquire into all matters of nature, meaning, mind, and cosmos. The words and specific concepts of mathematics, botany, and chemistry are too modern (and too latinate: there'd be Anglo-Saxon portmanteau words); the Realms hasn't experienced the culture-shattering division of intellect and spirit, chemistry and alchemy, that befell Europe. There may be terminology of 'disciplines', but it'll be quirky, not universal Faerūnwide. Such enquiries will often, but not always, shade into and be inspired by theology and matters of Art and Power. Philosophers will be professional sages, have other money-earning jobs, or be retained as a sage or tutor by someone rich, or else earn a living through demagoguery or publishing.
Cunning Linguist
03-19-04, 05:50 PM The main problem with Gods in the realms, and how we look at God is that we look at God as a perfect all knowing being, while in the realms, only Ao is that, and we know how he reacts to people trying to talk to him.

If let's say a cleric of Bane is trying to understand if thought comes before action, or if action is already predestined before thought, Bane would not have this knowledge. He could say that one came before the other, but he would be no more right then any other deity who has an opinion about that.

Gods don't even know what’s going to happen, if they did they would not fight or quarrel, since they would know the outcome of the fight before it started.

If anything, use the Norse gods as examples for how gods should behave. They often visited earth, and tried to understand these weird creatures that where humans. They did not understand why we acted the way we did, and they tried, in there most strange way, to understand why we acted the way we did.
ender
03-20-04, 05:27 PM I agree with the above by Faraer and Cunning. The development of European and Islamic philosophy would be poor analogues to Faerunian philosophy (whatever that may be). It may have more in common with Hindu or Tibetan. Alas, I know pitifully little about those disciplines, so I cannot be your guide. :)

Personally (and be gentle; I'm tossing out ideas as they occur, with little or no filter), I'm inclined to think that some form of Nihilism would be pretty prevalent. In its philosophical form, that is, holding that nothing in the universe has any real existence. After all, the Weave is a fact of life, and therefore to a large extent the fabric of reality is mutable. Studying magic itself is a shortcut past studying existence, so in this sense the powerful magic-users (you know, the ones with uber ranks in Knowledge arcana :)) are the philosophers.

On the other hand, most of the really tricky questions that our philosophers have dealt with can be solved once and for all by direct experience. What happens when we die? We go to the Fugue plane, duh. So maybe, in a sense, many people would adhere to a rational (or pseudo-rational) outlook. They would believe what learned/high-powered folk tell them, and they learned it by direct experience.

After all that, I suppose my final opinion is that Faerunian philosophy would probably be underdeveloped. In a world of stark contrasts and moral absolutes between good and evil, law and chaos, there is no need for that kind of subtlety. What would exist would probably be mostly the province of spellcasters.
markheus
03-20-04, 07:03 PM Thank you for some really great ideas. I know it would be hard to translate earth based sciences and philosophies to the realms but I figured there had to be some sort of intellectual life. SOmething for people to argue over -

I like the idea that the gods don't know everything, or their vision of reality is tainted by their portfolios of interest. And you're right, I was approaching it from the Christian aspect of an all-knowing god. I need to remove my cultural imperialism!

To me the weave doesn't really represent reality - if anything its a barrier to true reality, it adds another layer or complexity. If the weave were removed or rendered powerless there would still be the same world, albeit with a lot of things missing? Would there be a life after death without magic?

I don't want to introduce science per se, but I would like to inject a sense of natural philosophy sans magic. Of course, that's probably peculiar to my campaign world, as I've definitely lowered the power level in comparison to the official campaign.

Perhaps because death (and life) is so important to us, and represents such a vast whole in our knowledge we overstate its relative importance in fantasy campaign. As have been mentioned, since you know exactly what happens when you die, and if powerful enough can even travel there beforehand, there doesn't seem to be much discussion down that road. But perhaps there are other areas of interest.

Thanks for your great ideas..... and feel free to post more. I think this is intersting.

Mark
Faraer
03-20-04, 07:19 PM In Ed's Realms, people certainly don't know what happens when they die, though some have a certain faith. The shift in Prince of Lies, whereby there's a strong incentive to pseudo-monotheism to avoid the Wall, is an easy enough retcon to ignore. Death and life are very important to Realms folk -- the existence of resurrection for some, with a lot of restrictions not mentioned in the rules of the spells, doesn't change that any more than the fact that modern medicine can resurrect people past generations would have called dead.

The quotations that open chapters in a lot of Ed's novels include musings of various kinds of philosophy, though mostly not hardcore metaphysics and epistemology.

The main differences from the philosophy of our world will come from the fact that the Realms is already a step toward a mythological dream-world from ours; yes, there's good and there's evil, but few folk are truly selfless amid the bustle and compromises of life and few encounter solars or soulless necromancers, and there's room for much dispute over the best way to do good, the responsibilities of nations and rulers, history and its cyclical and astrological patterns, countercultures rebelling from social norms, and so on.
Cunning Linguist
03-20-04, 07:26 PM I don't think everyone knows about the fungus plane, it is restricted, and traveling to and from it is no easy task.
Magic is for most people secret, just look at what happend when Volo gave out his guide to all things magical, and the things in there where not even important when trying to understand how magic and the univers was connected.

The idea that "when I die, I will be with my god" goes into all religions and ideas of the afterlife, and even during the middle ages, there was philosophy.

If you want to ask what kind of questions Faerun Philosophy would be asking think of these things.

*Did the word start in Order and become chaos? Or was there Chaos and then came Order?

*Is the lack of Good, the seeds of Evil?

*Does nature exist for us to use, or to be a part of?

*Is this reality, or is our lives the imagination of our gods, or perhaps a even greater god them we know of?

*Is life magic, or does it exist apart from it?

*What does life come from? Did the gods create us with magic? If so, are we magic?

Things like this..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
markheus 03-19-04, 04:24 PM	I was curious what you guys think about some of the other knowledge disciplines in the realms. Sure, with magic you can learn anything you want to - but what about mathematics, botany, chemistry ... etc. Also, I was curious what a philosopher would be like in the realms. What types of questions would they ask? What would be some of the disciplines within the field be? What about epistemology? WIth the ability to commune with deities it doesn't seem like there would be any real philosophic debate. One could just go and ask your deity and they'd give you the right answer.... probably.... Any comments?
Faraer 03-19-04, 04:53 PM	On the latter point, The Hooded One, she said Reading all of these posts, I'm reminded of what Ed of the Greenwood ALWAYS told us when we (I'm one of his original players) asked about the gods. He'd spread his hands and ask, "Roleplay?" So we'd sigh, go and find a temple or powerful priest, ask what we wanted to know, and get an answer. Then we'd ask Ed if the answer was true, and he'd smile and reply, "How can you ever know? Even if a god PERSONALLY answered you, how can you trust them not to have an agenda, and be manipulating you by the answer they give? Remember that: how can you ever know?" :) Florin Falconhand had an 'in' with Mielikki, and once asked her this. She (Ed as DM playing her, of course) smiled and said, "Of course I'm not giving you truth, Florin...and even I can never be sure what is truth, and what is merely my perception. Think not on such things, most loyal of mortals, for that way lies madness." Still good advice, I think.Our world has magic and deities too, or so premodern and early-modern people experienced and believed. In the Realms, some folk enquire into all matters of nature, meaning, mind, and cosmos. The words and specific concepts of mathematics, botany, and chemistry are too modern (and too latinate: there'd be Anglo-Saxon portmanteau words); the Realms hasn't experienced the culture-shattering division of intellect and spirit, chemistry and alchemy, that befell Europe. There may be terminology of 'disciplines', but it'll be quirky, not universal Faerūnwide. Such enquiries will often, but not always, shade into and be inspired by theology and matters of Art and Power. Philosophers will be professional sages, have other money-earning jobs, or be retained as a sage or tutor by someone rich, or else earn a living through demagoguery or publishing.
Cunning Linguist 03-19-04, 05:50 PM	The main problem with Gods in the realms, and how we look at God is that we look at God as a perfect all knowing being, while in the realms, only Ao is that, and we know how he reacts to people trying to talk to him. If let's say a cleric of Bane is trying to understand if thought comes before action, or if action is already predestined before thought, Bane would not have this knowledge. He could say that one came before the other, but he would be no more right then any other deity who has an opinion about that. Gods don't even know what’s going to happen, if they did they would not fight or quarrel, since they would know the outcome of the fight before it started. If anything, use the Norse gods as examples for how gods should behave. They often visited earth, and tried to understand these weird creatures that where humans. They did not understand why we acted the way we did, and they tried, in there most strange way, to understand why we acted the way we did.
ender 03-20-04, 05:27 PM	I agree with the above by Faraer and Cunning. The development of European and Islamic philosophy would be poor analogues to Faerunian philosophy (whatever that may be). It may have more in common with Hindu or Tibetan. Alas, I know pitifully little about those disciplines, so I cannot be your guide. :) Personally (and be gentle; I'm tossing out ideas as they occur, with little or no filter), I'm inclined to think that some form of Nihilism would be pretty prevalent. In its philosophical form, that is, holding that nothing in the universe has any real existence. After all, the Weave is a fact of life, and therefore to a large extent the fabric of reality is mutable. Studying magic itself is a shortcut past studying existence, so in this sense the powerful magic-users (you know, the ones with uber ranks in Knowledge arcana :)) are the philosophers. On the other hand, most of the really tricky questions that our philosophers have dealt with can be solved once and for all by direct experience. What happens when we die? We go to the Fugue plane, duh. So maybe, in a sense, many people would adhere to a rational (or pseudo-rational) outlook. They would believe what learned/high-powered folk tell them, and they learned it by direct experience. After all that, I suppose my final opinion is that Faerunian philosophy would probably be underdeveloped. In a world of stark contrasts and moral absolutes between good and evil, law and chaos, there is no need for that kind of subtlety. What would exist would probably be mostly the province of spellcasters.
markheus 03-20-04, 07:03 PM	Thank you for some really great ideas. I know it would be hard to translate earth based sciences and philosophies to the realms but I figured there had to be some sort of intellectual life. SOmething for people to argue over - I like the idea that the gods don't know everything, or their vision of reality is tainted by their portfolios of interest. And you're right, I was approaching it from the Christian aspect of an all-knowing god. I need to remove my cultural imperialism! To me the weave doesn't really represent reality - if anything its a barrier to true reality, it adds another layer or complexity. If the weave were removed or rendered powerless there would still be the same world, albeit with a lot of things missing? Would there be a life after death without magic? I don't want to introduce science per se, but I would like to inject a sense of natural philosophy sans magic. Of course, that's probably peculiar to my campaign world, as I've definitely lowered the power level in comparison to the official campaign. Perhaps because death (and life) is so important to us, and represents such a vast whole in our knowledge we overstate its relative importance in fantasy campaign. As have been mentioned, since you know exactly what happens when you die, and if powerful enough can even travel there beforehand, there doesn't seem to be much discussion down that road. But perhaps there are other areas of interest. Thanks for your great ideas..... and feel free to post more. I think this is intersting. Mark
Faraer 03-20-04, 07:19 PM	In Ed's Realms, people certainly don't know what happens when they die, though some have a certain faith. The shift in Prince of Lies, whereby there's a strong incentive to pseudo-monotheism to avoid the Wall, is an easy enough retcon to ignore. Death and life are very important to Realms folk -- the existence of resurrection for some, with a lot of restrictions not mentioned in the rules of the spells, doesn't change that any more than the fact that modern medicine can resurrect people past generations would have called dead. The quotations that open chapters in a lot of Ed's novels include musings of various kinds of philosophy, though mostly not hardcore metaphysics and epistemology. The main differences from the philosophy of our world will come from the fact that the Realms is already a step toward a mythological dream-world from ours; yes, there's good and there's evil, but few folk are truly selfless amid the bustle and compromises of life and few encounter solars or soulless necromancers, and there's room for much dispute over the best way to do good, the responsibilities of nations and rulers, history and its cyclical and astrological patterns, countercultures rebelling from social norms, and so on.
Cunning Linguist 03-20-04, 07:26 PM	I don't think everyone knows about the fungus plane, it is restricted, and traveling to and from it is no easy task. Magic is for most people secret, just look at what happend when Volo gave out his guide to all things magical, and the things in there where not even important when trying to understand how magic and the univers was connected. The idea that "when I die, I will be with my god" goes into all religions and ideas of the afterlife, and even during the middle ages, there was philosophy. If you want to ask what kind of questions Faerun Philosophy would be asking think of these things. Did the word start in Order and become chaos? Or was there Chaos and then came Order? Is the lack of Good, the seeds of Evil? Does nature exist for us to use, or to be a part of? Is this reality, or is our lives the imagination of our gods, or perhaps a even greater god them we know of? Is life magic, or does it exist apart from it? What does life come from? Did the gods create us with magic? If so, are we magic? Things like this..