Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:05 PM	-This thread stems from an off-topic discussion I was having with Heretic and Rino about philosophy. -So, apply some actual philosophies to the Realms and discuss. -As I already said, Khelben would be a clear-cut adherent of Utilitariansim.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:09 PM	The Realms as a whole is highly Liberitarian in nature, at least in ideal. Governments really aren't too involved in the lives of the people except in the form of military defense and people essentially do as they wish. Of course, this approach is general among many fanatsy settings.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:14 PM	-This thread stems from an off-topic discussion I was having with Heretic and Rino about philosophy. :D I do agree that I see a lot of libertarianism in the Realms (and of course, individualism). And I like that. Although of course, that's not the case everywhere.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:15 PM	:D I do agree that I see a lot of libertarianism in the Realms (and of course, individualism). And I like that. Although of course, that's not the case everywhere. I am Liberitarian in my outlook so it's all good for me.;)
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:22 PM	The Realms as a whole is highly Liberitarian in nature, at least in ideal. -In fantasy, there is often a lot of outright socialism/communism as well.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:26 PM	-In fantasy, there is often a lot of outright socialism/communism as well. More among nonhuman races than humans themselves, but I agree.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 08:26 PM	The Forgotten Realms lack an overarching idealogy that permates those of Dragonlance but are large enough that individual story themes are allowed to become prevalent over time. * Alienation: Drizzt Do'Urden is fundamentally an outsider dealing with the world of humanity from an outsider's perspective like in The Day the Earth Stood Still. A strong notion of racism undercuts his storyline as Drizzt is a dark skinned man in a society that despises him for that Dark Skin. The metaphor is hardly apt but it adds to the loneliness of the series with the transformation of the Orcs in Obould's kingdom being one of the few times in the series that the issue is addressed outside of Drizzt's field of view. * Sexual Liberty: The Forgotten Realms under Ed Greenwood are a place where sexuality is liberated to a level that few in society really believe is possible. Homosexual, Heterosexuality, and Bisexuality are accepted norms along with Polythiesm and open marriages. The only unadvocated views are incest, pedophilia (with a questionability of Ephebophilia's permissiveness in the Realm being open), and rape. In stark contrast to Ed Greenwood's viewpoints on open sexuality is the fact that interacial marriage and religious tolerance are completely backwards in the Realm for the probable sake of continuing plotlines. * Mixed Race Movements: Like Dragonlance's Tanis, Arilyn Moonblade is a character that is attempting to reconcile her role as a member of a mixed race. However, unlike Tanis, she'll never achieve a level of acceptance in her elven home culture due to its persistant bigotry. Interestingly, she still strongly identifies with elven culture over her human side and views it with mild annoyance. * The Transforming nature of Faith: One interesting running theme in the Realms is that the interaction between gods and man can be viewed two ways. The evolving nature of spirituality in mankind has changed the nature of divinities as we interpret them many times in the history of the world. Likewise, the deities in the Realms being personified are often undergoing dramatic changes of religious dogma and personality that impacts their clergy. One notable point is that even in the Realms, deities don't seem to "clue in" their faithful about heresy with the Risen Sun and Selunites. * Conflicting Feminist Messages: The Matriarchy of the Drow society is arguably Misogynist in its viewpoint but while it's the point of Drizzt Do'Urden, it also is amusingly used to great effect with the Drow of the Dark Maiden and Liriel Baenrae. Also, Alusair is one of the few fully sexually liberated women in fantasy fiction even with the rise and preponderance of female Fantasy Fiction writers in modern day society. She remains a protagonist as well despite her James Bondian like antics with women. She is not the only feminist character of liberated sexuality and a heroine as well with Kyriani of the Forgotten Realms Advanced Dungeons and Dragons series also being one of the few women to have multiple paramours without being degraded (despite a few fan letters to the contrary). Storm Silverhand and the Seven Sisters have also been this way with Alustriel unfortunately chastified in R.A. Salvatore's works.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:32 PM	More among nonhuman races than humans themselves, but I agree. -I think it's mostly can be found intra-communal relationships of Elves and Dwarves. -You know who'd probably be an interesting case study, in terms of philosophy and psychology? Sememmon. Such a complex character.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:35 PM	- -You know who'd probably be an interesting case study, in terms of philosophy and psychology? Sememmon. Such a complex character. Not really, I say he is an archetypical hedonist underneath the emotionless facade.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 08:36 PM	Not really, I say he is an archetypical hedonist underneath the emotionless facade. Semmenon was always a fun character to me because he's aware that he's not actually the original guy that fell in love with Ashemmi. He's one of Manshoon's clones. I was actually going to do something fun where the original gets resurrected.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:38 PM	Semmenon was always a fun character to me because he's aware that he's not actually the original guy that fell in love with Ashemmi. He's one of Manshoon's clones. I was actually going to do something fun where the original gets resurrected. Manshoon the Iron Man in love??? Now that's something new.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 08:40 PM	Manshoon the Iron Man in love??? Now that's something new. No, Semmenon was a normal guy that was CLONED by Manshoon, not a clone OF Manshoon. Manshoon, at least in the Swords of Dragonfire book seems to have been confirmed to have had a sexual relationship of the most bizarre kind with the Shadowsil. I may be misremembering but it seems to me that he also seems to occasionally possess her during sex with men. :embarrass
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:43 PM	No, Semmenon was a normal guy that was CLONED by Manshoon, not a clone OF Manshoon. Manshoon, at least in the Swords of Dragonfire book seems to have been confirmed to have had a sexual relationship of the most bizarre kind with the Shadowsil. I may be misremembering but it seems to me that he also seems to occasionally possess her during sex with men. :embarrass Oh, that's interesting, Manshoon taking a ordinary but suprisingly intelligent and hard-working young man (or elf) and turning him into his servant. While the original does not forget his promise to the beautiful elven woman, who went evil due to grief. Interesting... Don't spoil that book either, I wanna read it.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:46 PM	Semmenon was always a fun character to me because he's aware that he's not actually the original guy that fell in love with Ashemmi. He's one of Manshoon's clones. I was actually going to do something fun where the original gets resurrected. -Hold on, what!?
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 08:49 PM	-Hold on, what!? It's in Ruins of Zhentil Keep and I think the Dragon Article but yes, Semmenon isn't the original Semmenon. The reason Semmenon is so youthful despite his apparent age is he's been killed a few times and cloned from his younger self by Manshoon. Edit: Ah, here it is. Death means little to Sememmon and he does not fear it in any way. The wizard has been slain several times and his present mortal form is a clone created by Manshoon after Harpers destroyed his true physical form. Manshoon currently guards some tissue belonging to Sememmon, guaranteeing the Mage's Loyalty should be perish again.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:59 PM	-Hmm. Wow, I never knew that. Don't have that book, and that isn't something that is 'common knowledge'. -Well, having been killed multiple times, and brought back from the dead does eliminate any fear and anxiety of death that one has. It becomes merely "been there, done that".
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 09:12 PM	My players occasionally visit Kelemvor's realm. One of the odder rooms there is Kelemvor's Wine Cellar. One of the racks is filled with "Souls of Manshoon." Specifically, the dozens of Manshoons down there.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:16 PM	My players occasionally visit Kelemvor's realm. One of the odder rooms there is Kelemvor's Wine Cellar. One of the racks is filled with "Souls of Manshoon." Specifically, the dozens of Manshoons down there. -Hmm...With all of his clones active, what is the status with Manshoon's soul? It can't be in just one clone, otherwise the others wouldn't be functioning. On the other hand, we know from previous canon (:embarrass) that a sundered soul cannot 'power' clones and whatnot.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:17 PM	-Hmm...With all of his clones active, what is the status with Manshoon's soul? It can't be in just one clone, otherwise the others wouldn't be functioning. On the other hand, we know from previous canon (:embarrass) that a sundered soul cannot 'power' clones and whatnot. He may already be dead, and all the clones are a kind of faux soul.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:23 PM	He may already be dead, and all the clones are a kind of faux soul. -What exactly would a 'faux soul' entail? And, how/why did he get one, to begin with? Although, the hows and the whys are one of the mysteries of the Manshoon Wars...
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 09:29 PM	-What exactly would a 'faux soul' entail? And, how/why did he get one, to begin with? Although, the hows and the whys are one of the mysteries of the Manshoon Wars... For me, I think I just prefer the simple answer that all of the Manshoons have their own separate clones and that cloning isn't really a form of resurrection or reincarnation at all. Other answers like Manshoon chopping his soul up like Voldemort or all of them being soulless necromantic abominations but for the original are all too troubling to really give much thought.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:32 PM	-What exactly would a 'faux soul' entail? And, how/why did he get one, to begin with? Although, the hows and the whys are one of the mysteries of the Manshoon Wars... Artificially created souls implanted with the memories and desires of the original are not beyond the abilities of Manshoon if he is as cunning as we believe. Though the original is still probably hiding somewhere...
Kenzuki 01-26-08, 09:39 PM	The Forgotten Realms lack an overarching idealogy that permates those of Dragonlance but are large enough that individual story themes are allowed to become prevalent over time. * Alienation: Drizzt Do'Urden is fundamentally an outsider dealing with the world of humanity from an outsider's perspective like in The Day the Earth Stood Still. A strong notion of racism undercuts his storyline as Drizzt is a dark skinned man in a society that despises him for that Dark Skin. The metaphor is hardly apt but it adds to the loneliness of the series with the transformation of the Orcs in Obould's kingdom being one of the few times in the series that the issue is addressed outside of Drizzt's field of view. * Sexual Liberty: The Forgotten Realms under Ed Greenwood are a place where sexuality is liberated to a level that few in society really believe is possible. Homosexual, Heterosexuality, and Bisexuality are accepted norms along with Polythiesm and open marriages. The only unadvocated views are incest, pedophilia (with a questionability of Ephebophilia's permissiveness in the Realm being open), and rape. In stark contrast to Ed Greenwood's viewpoints on open sexuality is the fact that interacial marriage and religious tolerance are completely backwards in the Realm for the probable sake of continuing plotlines. * Mixed Race Movements: Like Dragonlance's Tanis, Arilyn Moonblade is a character that is attempting to reconcile her role as a member of a mixed race. However, unlike Tanis, she'll never achieve a level of acceptance in her elven home culture due to its persistant bigotry. Interestingly, she still strongly identifies with elven culture over her human side and views it with mild annoyance. * The Transforming nature of Faith: One interesting running theme in the Realms is that the interaction between gods and man can be viewed two ways. The evolving nature of spirituality in mankind has changed the nature of divinities as we interpret them many times in the history of the world. Likewise, the deities in the Realms being personified are often undergoing dramatic changes of religious dogma and personality that impacts their clergy. One notable point is that even in the Realms, deities don't seem to "clue in" their faithful about heresy with the Risen Sun and Selunites. * Conflicting Feminist Messages: The Matriarchy of the Drow society is arguably Misogynist in its viewpoint but while it's the point of Drizzt Do'Urden, it also is amusingly used to great effect with the Drow of the Dark Maiden and Liriel Baenrae. Also, Alusair is one of the few fully sexually liberated women in fantasy fiction even with the rise and preponderance of female Fantasy Fiction writers in modern day society. She remains a protagonist as well despite her James Bondian like antics with women. She is not the only feminist character of liberated sexuality and a heroine as well with Kyriani of the Forgotten Realms Advanced Dungeons and Dragons series also being one of the few women to have multiple paramours without being degraded (despite a few fan letters to the contrary). Storm Silverhand and the Seven Sisters have also been this way with Alustriel unfortunately chastified in R.A. Salvatore's works. I actually prefer the seemingly "chastified" Alustriel to the one that acts like a *coughs*******coughs* A women is so much more interesting which she isn't bedding every male in the damn novel.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:42 PM	I actually prefer the seemingly "chastified" Alustriel to the one that acts like a *coughs*******coughs* . Actually I have always wanted to get a little frisky with the great lady Alustriel:D
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 09:43 PM	I actually prefer the seemingly "chastified" Alustriel to the one that acts like a *coughs*******coughs* A women is so much more interesting which she isn't bedding every male in the damn novel. Eh, I like Kyrani and Alusair as much as Alustriel. I confess, there seemed to be something slightly off about Alustriel that I never could quite wrap my head around.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 10:04 PM	Other answers like Manshoon chopping his soul up like Voldemort... -In D&D, by canon, that doesn't work. Though the original is still probably hiding somewhere... -One of them is real...
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 11:29 PM	I think in FR common, the prefix 'Alus' means sex-addict. ;) "And if you go chasing rabbits And you know you're going to fall, Tell 'em a hookah smoking caterpillar Has given you the call. Call Alus When she was just small." :D -In D&D, by canon, that doesn't work. Why not? Halaster has had his soul 'shattered', and Karsus has had his split in three, so why can't someone intentionally split their soul? :confused:
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 11:31 PM	Why not? Halaster has had his soul 'shattered', and Karsus has had his split in three, so why can't someone intentionally split their soul? :confused: -That's not the part that doesn't work. Once a soul is shattered, Clones cannot awaken, as there is not a (whole) soul to inhabit it. That's the part that doesn't work.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 11:55 PM	So how did manshoon pull it off? :confused:
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 11:58 PM	-That's what we're discussing currently. Geeze...:rolleyes: :P
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 12:03 AM	Well if we wanted to come up with some fanon-theories (It's Steven's plotline with Ed Greenwood) 1. The Manshoon Clones are Forcibly Infused with a Soul: Manshoon may be harvesting the souls of Dead Zhentilar in order to place them in his bodies which are still possessed of most of his knowledge as well as mystical might. He might have been experimenting with the idea of creating an army of himself or is manipulating events from behind the chaos. Unfortunately, some quality of the Manshoons mean they attack automatically. 2. Elminster played a Trick: Elminster may have petitioned Mystra to give souls to all of the Manshoons and thus they awoke with all their powers and a lesson to Manshoon about abusing one spell for immortality. 3. The Manshoons are all demonically possessed: Like Golems, they've been infused with summoned spirits that Manshoon has drawn from other worlds and placed inside them with the knowledge and so on intact. 4. Manshoon did something screwy with the Timestream: All of the Manshoon clones have a set temporal lifespan because they're filled with Manshoons soul from a different point in time. Eventually, the clones will die (possibly at each others hands) as the soul is moved to a different body. Again, this is just to screw with his enemies.
Charles Phipps 02-03-08, 04:50 AM	Hey said "Odd, Philosophy of the Realms" moment. I was thinking about Race in the Realms. While reading over Storm Silverhand's post to my Tyr Funeral thread, I was reminded of a story from my gaming history. One of the oddest comments I ever got was from Kyle. Kyle walked up to me after a game and said... Kyle: Dude, thanks for Mulmaster. Me: Uhhh....why? Kyle: Dude, the flavor text (and yes, he says dude all the time) Me: What about it. Kyle: People from Mulmaster are black. Me: Okayyy.... Kyle: Listen, now I can have guys who look like me running around in Medieval Armor and smiting people without going through any of the hassle of saying I'm from Chult or part drow or what ever. It just makes things simpler. Me: okay. Kyle: And it's cool to know Bane is like me. [I made Bane from Mulmaster too---this was when I was a causal Realmslore patron around 20 and thus probably utterly impossible] Strangely, it was just a random choice. However, it got me thinking that maybe part of the reason that Eberron is so successful is that attempts to eschew a lot of the "nativism" of fantasy. In the melting pot of the Realms, I wonder if that's possible.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:07 PM	-Never met anyone names 'Kyle' before...
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:33 PM	Oh yes, very possible. In fact, that's what they are trying to do with the Realms right now, with the whole Baldur's Gate thing as well as the recent advent of Shou Towns.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:54 PM	-Though, dark skinned Humans do exist in places other than Chult. Same thing with dark skinned Halflings, Orcs, and so on.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:02 PM	-Though, dark skinned Humans do exist in places other than Chult. Same thing with dark skinned Halflings, Orcs, and so on. And that population has substantially gone down (cough, Maztica, cough).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 05:24 PM	Ed has said that he's always pictured the cities of the Realms has having inhabitants of more than just one skin color and culture.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:08 AM	Ed has said that he's always pictured the cities of the Realms has having inhabitants of more than just one skin color and culture. -Yes, that was what I was getting at, that you so eloquently said.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:53 PM	-Yes, that was what I was getting at, that you so eloquently said. Eloquent? Aww, thanks for the compliment.:)
XHereticX 02-06-08, 07:36 PM	Eloquent? Aww, thanks for the compliment.:) Oh please refrain from sick,cloying sweetness during a dignified academic conversation.:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 12:45 AM	Oh please refrain from sick,cloying sweetness during a dignified academic conversation.:rolleyes: -Bad utilitarian. Complimenting her when she clearly deserved a compliment makes her happy. -Now, let's plug in the Butterfly Effect, and in turn, she might hold open the door for a coworker. In turn, that coworker might make dinner for his/her family. In turn, the kids do better on their test, from a good meal. In turn, they get a better grade in that class. In turn, they get a better report card average. In turn, they get into a better college. In turn, they get a better education, and become the leaders of tomorrow. -So, by complimenting Rino, I just made the world of tomorrow a better place. :)
msatran 02-07-08, 09:59 AM	Those are all kind of interesting points, but for me, the key feature of the Realms is this. No matter how much your characters live in the moment, and how important things seem, in the end, they are surpassed by the inexorable grind of history and the nature of forces that are mightier than themselves. Things like Time, Age, and Nature remain inexorable and strong.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 03:51 PM	No matter how much your characters live in the moment, and how important things seem, in the end, they are surpassed by the inexorable grind of history and the nature of forces that are mightier than themselves. Things like Time, Age, and Nature remain inexorable and strong. -Very true. If the Realms had an 'overarching story' or 'overarching moral', or something to that effect, this would be it. Mighty empires rise and eventually, these mighty empires fall, to make room for new empires. Eventually, these fallen empires, who at some point or another, were the pinnacle of power on the planet, are now nothing more than folkstories and ruins.
The Ubbergeek 02-07-08, 09:51 PM	Ah, the very humane and universal Hubris...
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 11:37 PM	Ah, the very humane and universal Hubris... -Not just Humans. Elven empires, Giant empires, Sarrukh empires, Batrachi empires...All rose to great hights, some higher than the others, and all fell, some to lower points of antiquity than the others.
Suin Bahhar 02-08-08, 02:02 PM	The people of the realms themselves can't be expected to uphold to strict philosophies. The realms polytheistic society makes it difficult for fearuns philosophies to stand up agaisnt the teachings of the societies gods. The three things a fearunian philosopher must manage are his common sense, his faith and his scholarly teachings while achieving a believable train of thought. I wonder how philosophies would spread. Making sense of a magical world seems daunting or even impossible. I sense the message of freedom seems to be hidden beneath the philosphies build on the teachings of fearuns multiple organisations though.
The Ubbergeek 02-08-08, 02:15 PM	-Not just Humans. Elven empires, Giant empires, Sarrukh empires, Batrachi empires...All rose to great hights, some higher than the others, and all fell, some to lower points of antiquity than the others. perhaps I should not use 'humane' as it implies it's something only humans get, but well.. yes. Elves, dwarves, etc...
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:25 AM	I wonder how philosophies would spread. Making sense of a magical world seems daunting or even impossible. -Probably very similar to the spread of different religions. Certain religions, such as Oghma, for instance, probably have a varied variety of philosophies that the faith as a whole believes in and supports. Much more varied then, say, Bane. -As links exist between Sigil and Faerūn, I could see the various Planescape Factions operating in Faerūn as well. As I've said elsewhere, the Athar and/or the Believers of the Source had a lot to do with the Netherese. Coupled with the fact that the Netherese attempted to conquer the Outlands via the Catseye Gate (I believe that was what it was called), I don't think 'crosspolination' and 'crossinfluence' is out of the question.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 10:54 AM	-Bad utilitarian. Complimenting her when she clearly deserved a compliment makes her happy. -Now, let's plug in the Butterfly Effect, and in turn, she might hold open the door for a coworker. In turn, that coworker might make dinner for his/her family. In turn, the kids do better on their test, from a good meal. In turn, they get a better grade in that class. In turn, they get a better report card average. In turn, they get into a better college. In turn, they get a better education, and become the leaders of tomorrow. -So, by complimenting Rino, I just made the world of tomorrow a better place. :) Um, I'm not completly utilitatian, though it is a good part of my philosophy. I have many influences in my train of though (Kantist beliefs in metaphysics, Nietzschian and Machevillian morals, etc). I even looked a little into Schopenhauer. Objectivist metaphysics are ok, but I'm not so sure about objectivist morals. The gods themselves create complex philosophies which they "dumb down" for their worshippers to make it easier to understand, yet the root in thought is still in philosophy. Yes, philosophies can transfer from other places, like the badly disguised Asian philosophies of Shou Lung:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 11:02 AM	Um, I'm not completly utilitatian, though it is a good part of my philosophy. I have many influences in my train of though (Kantist beliefs in metaphysics, Nietzschian and Machevillian morals, etc). I even looked a little into Schopenhauer. -Yuck. I can't stand Kant. -Cartesian Metaphysics, FTW!
XHereticX 02-09-08, 11:06 AM	-Yuck. I can't stand Kant. -Cartesian Metaphysics, FTW! Far too mathematically based and not enough in the means of thought. Kant was a genius, he effectively saved metaphysics from Hume and his doomsday machine of empirical horror. His moral philosophy however, is just repulsive and obviously displays his conservative christian upbringing.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 11:08 AM	His moral philosophy however, is just repulsive and obviously displays his conservative christian upbringing. -Nietzsche went out of his way to shoot Kant down, concerning his ethical philosophies. I don't like Kantist ethics, but I can understand where Kant was coming from.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 11:10 AM	-Nietzsche went out of his way to shoot Kant down, concerning his ethical philosophies. Exactly, which is why I am becoming more and more entranced by Nietzsche's moral philosophy by the moment, despite's it's obvious signs of madness and bigotry. You know what they say, "Beware of syphilics preaching morals."
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 11:12 AM	Exactly, which is why I am becoming more and more entranced by Nietzsche's moral philosophy by the moment, despite's it's obvious signs of madness and bigotry. You know what they say, "Beware of syphilics preaching morals." -Well, they say at death, you have a moment of clarity. The closer and closer you get to death, then, the more clear your thoughts should be. So, that is not madness. That is genius.
Brand_X 02-09-08, 11:15 AM	I would consider Morals to be Objective. Right and Wrong are objective and they are morals. So maybe saying Objective Morals is a case of Redundancy. After all the world though Hitler was Evil yet he himself believed what he was doing to be good.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 11:23 AM	-Well, they say at death, you have a moment of clarity. The closer and closer you get to death, then, the more clear your thoughts should be. So, that is not madness. That is genius. Yes, despite his misgivings and his self-centeredness (the dude titled some chapters of Ecce **** as, "Why I write such great books," and "Why I am truth." Talk about needing a reality check. Still, he turned out a fantastic moral philosophy. Yes, I do acknowledge there is such thing as right and wrong, yet we should judge actions by their consequences rather than their intentions (Master/Slave mentality FTW). So either way, Hitler is still evil. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:24 PM	I would consider Morals to be Objective. Right and Wrong are objective and they are morals. So maybe saying Objective Morals is a case of Redundancy. After all the world though Hitler was Evil yet he himself believed what he was doing to be good. -Objectivism brings us back to the fact that, no matter what a person thinks, what a different person things, and what a third person thinks, there is a definitive truth out there, that doesn't have to match any of their versions of the truth.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 12:31 PM	-Objectivism brings us back to the fact that, no matter what a person thinks, what a different person things, and what a third person thinks, there is a definitive truth out there, that doesn't have to match any of their versions of the truth. So far I am in concordance, however the goal of attempting to live by that unseen truth seems too delusional and unrealistic to me.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:55 PM	So far I am in concordance, however the goal of attempting to live by that unseen truth seems too delusional and unrealistic to me. -A person doesn't necessarily know the universal truth. They just know their perception of it, which doesn't have to be right. I can say and passionately believe for the rest of my life that X = 1. I'll go to my grave, believing that I had enough evidence to prove that X =1 . In the end, however, none of that changes the fact that X actually is equal to 1.2. -Objectivism isn't as much as a philosophy that one lives by, per se, as it is one that a person believes in.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 01:09 PM	-A person doesn't necessarily know the universal truth. They just know their perception of it, which doesn't have to be right. I can say and passionately believe for the rest of my life that X = 1. I'll go to my grave, believing that I had enough evidence to prove that X =1 . In the end, however, none of that changes the fact that X actually is equal to 1.2. -Objectivism isn't as much as a philosophy that one lives by, per se, as it is one that a person believes in. I agree with that. Objectivism is more in the way of a metaphysical outline of the universe, dealing with the physical rather than the personal. I typically equate the "absoulte truth" in objectivism with Kant's Neumora, the truth behind what we perceive that humanity will never know, which also forms my own personal philosophy of form and essence. Where the phenomena is the world of reactions, the physical, and what we can actually see and explain by science, and the neumora is the true world within the world, the essence that causes the physical reactions that make the phemonema. It is the realm of ideas and even a masked divinity in the complex form. True A=A, but it is - and ^ that create A, and Kant's priori are within the realms of neumora, they are there, but we cannot perceive it.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 01:18 PM	I agree with that. Objectivism is more in the way of a metaphysical outline of the universe, dealing with the physical rather than the personal. -Exactly, though I'd say 'actual', rather than 'physical'.
The Ubbergeek 02-09-08, 01:21 PM	Far too mathematically based and not enough in the means of thought. Kant was a genius, he effectively saved metaphysics from Hume and his doomsday machine of empirical horror. His moral philosophy however, is just repulsive and obviously displays his conservative christian upbringing. Better Kant than the old madman... ugh...
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 01:32 PM	-Nietzsche is the Anti-Kant.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 01:50 PM	-Nietzsche is the Anti-Kant. Yet suprisingly, I have bits of both in my personal philosophy (Kantist metaphysics and epistemology, and Nietzchean morality), with Utilitarianism, and a little objectivism (mostly the ideas on Laissze-faire capitalism), and certain enlightenment ideals thrown in.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 02:10 PM	Yet suprisingly, I have bits of both in my personal philosophy (Kantist metaphysics and epistemology, and Nietzchean morality), with Utilitarianism, and a little objectivism (mostly the ideas on Laissze-faire capitalism), and certain enlightenment ideals thrown in. -That's what happens when invididuals come up with treatisies concerning different points of philosophy. You can agree with some of their points, but not others.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 02:17 PM	-That's what happens when invididuals come up with treatisies concerning different points of philosophy. You can agree with some of their points, but not others. "Thus it came to pass that Karsus and Heretic art once again in concordance.";)
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 02:20 PM	"Thus it came to pass that Karsus and Heretic art once again in concordance.";) -And all was right with the world once more. G'Night, folks...