Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 11-13-07, 07:38 PM	I was curious, is it possible to make Sigil a regular parts of a Realms game and incorporate elements from Planescape without sacrificing the feel of both FR and Planescape as a whole? I'm interested in your thoughts.
johnkretzer 11-13-07, 07:58 PM	I was curious, is it possible to make Sigil a regular parts of a Realms game and incorporate elements from Planescape without sacrificing the feel of both FR and Planescape as a whole? I'm interested in your thoughts. I never had issues with it and I have always done it that way.
Charles Phipps 11-13-07, 08:30 PM	Well, my current idea for a game is that the player characters are going to follow Dag Zoreth (CE H M Priest of Cyric 13), yes the same one from Thornhold, into the Demiplane of Sigil [Which seems the best way to handle the place now that there's no longer a Great Wheel]. Dag Zoreth is going to be 'defecting' from Cyric's service to the worship of Gargauth and is bringing a piece of the Rod of Seven Parts with him to seal the deal. Gargauth thinks he can buy the loyalty of the Queen of Chaos and Mishka the Wolf Spider if he has the completed rod in his possession. Dag understands that Cyric's wrath is pretty damn vast and is going to Sigil because he's ]]*THAT* afraid of his master's retalliation. Now here's the problem. My players don't have any experience with Sigil. This was the honest to god reaction of one. "Cool, we'll get to be pirates." Me: What? Player: "Ummmm that's the one with the ships that sail through space on something." Me: "I think you're thinking of Spelljammer." So, designing an adventure that brings home the Planescape feel will be pretty difficult.
Lord Karsus 11-13-07, 08:40 PM	I was curious, is it possible to make Sigil a regular parts of a Realms game and incorporate elements from Planescape without sacrificing the feel of both FR and Planescape as a whole? I'm interested in your thoughts. -There shouldn't be any impediments. After all, Planescape was designed such that there would be all kinds of "cross pollination".
Charles Phipps 11-13-07, 09:03 PM	Rules-wise? Yes. However, this is a flavor text Post. Mostly, I'm curious how I should portray the Clueless Primes reaction and what kind of suggestions you guys might have to bringing home the alienness of Sigil.
Thinblade 11-13-07, 09:19 PM	Personally, I'd have the first time the PC's mention that stupid Tree cosmology have the planars laugh in their faces and tell them in no uncertain terms that they're dreaming: the Wheel is the truth.
Charles Phipps 11-13-07, 10:00 PM	Personally, I'd have the first time the PC's mention that stupid Tree cosmology have the planars laugh in their faces and tell them in no uncertain terms that they're dreaming: the Wheel is the truth. I've already established that both the Great Wheel and Great Tree are gross oversimplifications that mortals use as a frame of reference. Anyone who swears by them is basically moronic to anyone with a +4 or higher knowledge (planes) even though most wizards use some variant of the idea.
Butterface 11-13-07, 10:28 PM	Well, is your demiplane of Sigil still going to be considered the City of Doors, with countless portals to planes all over the multiverse? If so, I don't see how it would be a problem making it feel like the old Sigil. For me, that's what made the city what it is - it's the biggest compilation of every race, religion, and ideology in the multiverse. Kind of like New York City except on a much, much larger scale. You can still use all the slang from 2nd ed Planescape, in fact, there's not really a reason to change Sigil at all. In 2nd ed, I doubt that the citizens in Sigil ever thought of the cosmos as a wheel anyway - that's just a theory a bunch of wizards thought up! As far as introducing Sigil to new players, I think so long as you stress the extreme diversity of the place, they'll get it. If there's a center to the multiverse, Sigil is it.
johnkretzer 11-13-07, 10:51 PM	Well, my current idea for a game is that the player characters are going to follow Dag Zoreth (CE H M Priest of Cyric 13), yes the same one from Thornhold, into the Demiplane of Sigil [Which seems the best way to handle the place now that there's no longer a Great Wheel]. Dag Zoreth is going to be 'defecting' from Cyric's service to the worship of Gargauth and is bringing a piece of the Rod of Seven Parts with him to seal the deal. Gargauth thinks he can buy the loyalty of the Queen of Chaos and Mishka the Wolf Spider if he has the completed rod in his possession. Dag understands that Cyric's wrath is pretty damn vast and is going to Sigil because he's ]]*THAT* afraid of his master's retalliation. Now here's the problem. My players don't have any experience with Sigil. This was the honest to god reaction of one. "Cool, we'll get to be pirates." Me: What? Player: "Ummmm that's the one with the ships that sail through space on something." Me: "I think you're thinking of Spelljammer." So, designing an adventure that brings home the Planescape feel will be pretty difficult. Wow I would love that response from players. That totaly don't have a clue... Don't correct their misunderstanding..heck even roll with it out of game...when they get there just read the desciption from any of the numerous accounts in the Planescape soucebooks(I know you have them...we had this discussion). Then take it from there.(Also you have mention they don't like Planescape before I believe so type it out and read it from a piece of paper so they won't identfy it with Planescape). I would have others native refer it to one of it' many nicknames top confuse their bearings. Of course such approach might get you lynched if your players don't like surprises....
johnkretzer 11-13-07, 10:53 PM	I've already established that both the Great Wheel and Great Tree are gross oversimplifications that mortals use as a frame of reference. Anyone who swears by them is basically moronic to anyone with a +4 or higher knowledge (planes) even though most wizards use some variant of the idea. um the Great Wheel was always a gross oversimplication. It was meant to be.
Charles Phipps 11-13-07, 11:15 PM	um the Great Wheel was always a gross oversimplication. It was meant to be. Yeah.
Charles Phipps 11-13-07, 11:18 PM	Well, is your demiplane of Sigil still going to be considered the City of Doors, with countless portals to planes all over the multiverse? Yep, that's the idea. I'm debating that it'll still be the Outlands too with Sigil's "Dimension" extending as far as the Towns. If so, I don't see how it would be a problem making it feel like the old Sigil. For me, that's what made the city what it is - it's the biggest compilation of every race, religion, and ideology in the multiverse. Kind of like New York City except on a much, much larger scale. Yeah, I always hinted there were traces of advanced technology amidst the magic but since Sigil's such a run down Hellhole that's it's more like Victorian times. You can still use all the slang from 2nd ed Planescape, in fact, there's not really a reason to change Sigil at all. In 2nd ed, I doubt that the citizens in Sigil ever thought of the cosmos as a wheel anyway - that's just a theory a bunch of wizards thought up! Thanks, now I just need to think of some good encounters and how to introduce all the various factions. As far as introducing Sigil to new players, I think so long as you stress the extreme diversity of the place, they'll get it. If there's a center to the multiverse, Sigil is it. That's a very good piece of advice there.
Lord Karsus 11-13-07, 11:27 PM	Rules-wise? Yes. However, this is a flavor text Post. Mostly, I'm curious how I should portray the Clueless Primes reaction and what kind of suggestions you guys might have to bringing home the alienness of Sigil. -I wasn't talking rules, I was talking flavor. Asides for being made of up natives, Sigil is also made up of Planar travelers. People come and go between the two constantly (though, not necessarily your players, or anyone they happen to know). A native of Sigil is going to consider clueless Berks, and some with fewer scruples would probably try to take advantage of them. Others might feel bad, and try to clue them in on the fact that Abeir-Toril is just one little speck of dust in the multiverse. -If you have access to Finder's Bane, I'd recommend reading the chapters where Joel and the others first travel to Sigil. They are literally in your PCs' place- strangers in a strange land.
Straploknight 11-13-07, 11:37 PM	Well to a degree, Spelljammer is Planescape light. Both settings pretty much figure most primers are the equivalent of country bumpkins while the spacers/planers are the city slickers so to speak. Your players are gonna grasp the obvious and the basic, but are gonna miss the subtlety of Sigil unitl they learn from a few hard knocks. Wish I could think of a good movie that could conjure up the right atmosphere (although Barter Town and Auntie M of Thunder Dome for some reason comes to mind). --->edit<--- Blade Runner, perhaps would be another
Suin Bahhar 11-14-07, 07:26 AM	I would say the fifth element from Luc Besson has (comes closest) the best dipiction of the hodgepodge culture of a metropolitan planar city. Outlandish outfits. Taverns with pitfiend patrons. Strange esotherical discussions. A certain cityslicker pride in all Sigilists have. And the slang (Which I really like and it makes the Planescape setting so much of a succes). But no made film has truly given the imagery of the breath of a bizarre and cosmopolitan city such as Sigil. I always imagined cutters would call the clueless of Toril even worse berks than most. The gods get lots of flack from Sigilist too. They'll better be quite mum about their origins or become laughing stock for the more benevolent or pawns for the manipulative citizens of Sigil. Friendly faces and horrible visages form alliances based on philosophies so dont take anything in Sigil at facevalue. Oh and dont ask about the food. Ever. You don't wanna know. (lol)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-14-07, 10:49 AM	I was curious, is it possible to make Sigil a regular parts of a Realms game and incorporate elements from Planescape without sacrificing the feel of both FR and Planescape as a whole? I'm interested in your thoughts. I don't have much to say other than that I think it can certainly be done--I've seen it done before.
Lord Karsus 11-14-07, 12:50 PM	But no made film has truly given the imagery of the breath of a bizarre and cosmopolitan city such as Sigil. -Mos Eisley (emphasis on the bizarre, and not really the cosmopolitan, though)? Coruscant?
MarkusTay63 11-14-07, 01:44 PM	Another Phipps thread? What has it been... twenty minutes? :P ;) This was the honest to god reaction of one. "Cool, we'll get to be pirates." Player: "Ummmm that's the one with the ships that sail through space on something." Me: "I think you're thinking of Spelljammer."In the new Cosmology, they would be correct. Everything, including the Outlands, are just 'bubbles' floating in the Astral Sea now. Funny thing is, thats the way I always pictured it, and even said so in threads MONTHS before their announcements <getting paranoid again> :incog:
Straploknight 11-14-07, 01:54 PM	Y'know I was also thinking perhaps Flash Gordon (1980) would also be relavent. As for Sigil itself, the city alsways reminded me of the popular depiction of 19th century England, and on that note, another movie that might offer something would be Gangs of New York. The Five Points seems very Sigil like as well.
Uzzy 11-14-07, 02:00 PM	Some ideas. Grab the Dabus's speech image from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Use variations on that to really confuse your PC's. Show them an inn that serves drinks from all over the multiverse, with an angel and devil in a corner discussing the finer points of their philosophy over drinks. If you have any Lliiran's or Ilmaterans in the group, make sure they hear about the 'Lady of Pain' quick, and hope they think it's Loviatar. Can't think of many more, as I've not actually read that much about Sigil beyond Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Hope these help!
Suin Bahhar 11-14-07, 03:50 PM	-Mos Eisley (emphasis on the bizarre, and not really the cosmopolitan, though)? Coruscant?I concede I was thinking of the cantena scene in A New Hope too when picturing a bizarre tavern scene in Sigil. The words on the street would sound really philosophical. And I recommend taking a better look at all the factions, the bread and butter of a Sigil based campaign. I like the Xaositects and the Doomguards. Some players will get a kick out of the Sensates. Most of these factions are unaffected even with the removal of the planar wheel construct. The actual location of Sigil is more difficult. It supposedly lies in the center of the multiverse, but with the planar bubble cosmology this becomes pretty abstract. The cutters could even have been lying about the center of the 'verse stuff and Sigil just has lots of portals instead to everywhere intead. Maybe it has a special relation to the infinite stairs (did that make it in 4ed?) or maybe Sigils structure bends the astral sea in an envelope or mealstrom and portals are all linked to that somehow. Any ideas?
Straploknight 11-14-07, 05:17 PM	Well if Sigil's plane is equidistant (as bizarre as that may seem) from all the other bubbles then it could be considered the center of the multiverse. Then again, Sigil could be on the far side for all they care, if it is in fact the one plane that touches all others through its innumerable portals then it is truly the center of the multiverse.
MarkusTay63 11-14-07, 08:22 PM	'My' Sigil (not that I've had anyone go there) looks just like the city in Dark City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_City_(1998_film)), repleat with "the Strangers" and buildings that change when you're not looking directly at them. If you follow that link, there is a very bad pic of part of the city about half-way down (I couldn't find any good ones on the Interweb). This one doesn't show the city, but it's a good show for getting the feel of the place - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Dark_City.jpg For more ideas on Sigil, see Ripvanwormer's EXCELLENT take on the place. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-422461) :cool:
Ebrion 11-14-07, 10:39 PM	Just for fun, have them visit Sigil Prep www.sigilprep.com
Shemeska the Marauder 11-14-07, 11:46 PM	I've never found there to be any problems mixing Sigil and FR in a campaign. I've done it for about six years now, and I think both have managed to retain their distinct flavor regardless of travel between FR and the planes. Heck, a few notable persons in Sigil are from (or claim) Toril. Admittedly, Rowan Darkwood isn't a popular person now after his death, but he spent time on Toril and while not originally from that world, he claimed it as his prime material home. There's even an apprentice of Trobriand in Sigil known for creating clockwork devices and creatures. In my original campaign (the first Storyhour in my .sig) half the PCs were from Toril, and the campaign went back to that world more than any other place on the Prime. In my current campaign (Storyhour 2 in my .sig) the first major plot arc takes place in the Great Barrow in northeastern Faerun. Granted 3e FR's cosmology didn't do me any favors in terms of FR/planar integration, and treated the planes as a poorly detailed afterthought in many cases, and 4e seems to be hinting at no better, despite having the opportunity to rectify 3e's mistakes. *sigh/shrug*
Purple Dragon Knight 11-15-07, 10:22 PM	There's also the fact that there are many parts of Faerun integral to the Planescape setting... the Tears of Tyr Inn in the town of Fortitude; The Infinite Staircase adventure, which is the actual staircase mentioned during the Time of Troubles; etc. My campaign is centered on Faerun, but Sigil/Spelljamming exist in it too; I don't focus on these, but if the players ever turn their heads in those directions, these things won't vanish as if Mr. Retcon had just arrived... One of my friends' campaign is set in Planescape, and two of the three PCs in it (including me) are Clueless Cutters from the Realms. The Planescape setting also has various major NPCs that hail from the Realms. Hey, maybe Sigil is where the high-level PCs go when they become a "little too successful" ELMINSTER, REST OF THE CHOSEN, and VARIOUS RAS UNKILLABLES: "Aaaah! adventurers! welcome to the High Level Retirees Club! here's your card!" PCs: "Wow! thank you! Are you... ELMINSTER?!?!" ELMINSTER, REST OF THE CHOSEN, and VARIOUS RAS UNKILLABLES: "Actually, I go for the name 'Bob Barker' these days, but yes, it is I" PCs: "Sweeeeeeeeeet! so? where's Larloch? what's our Mission Mr. Connery?" ELMINSTER, REST OF THE CHOSEN, and VARIOUS RAS UNKILLABLES: "About that... yeah... hmmmm.... you see... when you get the card, you get a free trip to Sigil. A mandatory vacation thing if you want. Heroes of our level can't go about working non-stop. Lots of liability insurance issues and all that. Literally millions of gold pieces ride on our backs, so the Economy can't risk us falling into traps of CRs way below ours due to fatigue/burnout/efficiency issues... hence the vacations. Anyway. Just go there and relax. Here's the key to the portal leading there. Yeah, the card is is. Just walk between these arches over there, with the card... instant transportation. Bring a few gold pieces, but don't bring all of it: the city is known for its ample supply of high-level thieves. You can leave the majority of your earnings in the safe deposit boxes in the back. Just ask the goblin custodian. Yeah, the one with the green visor behind the counter with iron bars." PCs: [Looking at each other] "This... THIS, is A-W-E-S-O-M-E!!!" [PCs run down to deposit 85% of their liquid assets at the Goblin Bank, run back up, and disappear in the ONE-WAY portal to Sigil" DRIZZT: "You've done it again El... another bunch of yahoos that are higher level than us gone for good. They're gone for good right?" ELMINSTER: "Of course... the campaigns always fizzle once they reach Sigil. They're just so insignificant there... the feeling of smallness overwhelms them and they always try to overcompensate by trying to make a name of themselves assaulting the LADY OF PAIN..." ALUSTRIEL: "Ouch! I heard she's a reaaaaal ***** too..." SIMBUL: "I *do* hate the frigid types who talk even less than I do... yes, she is a *****" JARLAXLE: "Hey, I'm cool! look at me! I slept with Copper Dragon Females! [silence around the table]" REGIS: "Awkward..." ENTRERI: [Looking at Jarlaxle over his Bud Light] "Yeah buddy... even though the place is filled with archmages... [hiccup!] ...you'd better start pulling magic tricks out of your pockets... [hiccup!] n'order to be funny... instead of the dragon chicks jokes... [barrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrff!] ...ohhh.. bat_guano... :yuck:
MarkusTay63 11-16-07, 02:28 AM	So, you're saying Sigil is the Universe's 'Town Dump'? :eek: ;) :P
Purple Dragon Knight 11-16-07, 10:39 AM	No... more like Aspens or Whistler/Blackcomb... where all the rich kids go for "adventure", meanwhile not knowing that there are tons of equally challenging, and oftentimes better ski resorts in their own backyards... :P
MarkusTay63 11-16-07, 11:30 PM	Ahhh... so it's a 'special' place... where they can do crafts and stuff...
Purple Dragon Knight 11-17-07, 10:13 PM	Yes... a daycare for the annoying high-level adventurers of the multiverse... :D
Charles Phipps 11-17-07, 11:10 PM	Well that's a bit of a problem to Planescape because the people of Sigil are even MORE relentlessly cynical towards individuals like Elminster and the like than could ever be possible. Take the Nameless One. "So you're a tens of thousands of year old super warrior that's been 20th level in every Class Imaginable and every alignment." "Yeah." "So what?"
Charles Phipps 11-18-07, 08:37 PM	Okay, I've managed to incorporate Sigil without too much trouble into the campaigns. Basically, I've imported the entire Outlands (Gate towns and all) while keeping them seperate from the various God Realms that exist there. So far, it's worked out pretty well. Our current campaign is a mish-mash of the Rod of Seven Parts storyline with Hellgate Keep's destruction and my own take on the matter. I think it'll work very well for Faerun/Planescape, however. 1. Gargauth is the Son of Asmodeus and Glaysia's older brother. The child of the Lord of Nessus and Shar, Gargauth inherited his mother's divinity and raised himself to be a power with decidedly Apocolyptical ambitions. It is the goal of Gargauth to bring an end to the Blood War, unite the Fiends, and then conquer the Prime Material Plane along with plunge the united Lower Planes into war with the Upper. He figures bringing a Prime Material World into the Nine Hells will be a major sign of his ambitions possibilities. 2. Dispater, Baalzebul, and Belial object rather violently to Gargauth's ambitions. They consider it an invitation to Disaster. The Three of them then worked together and bound Gargauth on the Prime Material Plane he wanted to conquer with no access to his godlike abilities. 3. Gargauth is not without allies. His sister Glaysia, his mother Shar, and Gra'azt all approve of his ambitions to bring about the "End of All Good in the Universe" even if it has the potential to shatter the whole of creation (especially because of it). Also, he's got a few Renegade Devil Nobles, Demon Renegades, and so on in his service. The Daemonfae and Malkized are all allied with Gargauth. 4. They're trying to get the Rod of Seven Parts to use its mixture of Law and Chaos power to bust him free from his current prison. 5. The PCs, unwittingly, have much of the backing of the Lords of The Nine's "conservative" Lords in seeing Gargauth annihilated from the face of the Cosmos.
Jiggawha 11-19-07, 07:46 AM	I used to planescape the Realms all the time, mainly cause of the factions and the beautiful philosophical concepts behind them, much more interesting then ordinary religion
Charles Phipps 11-29-07, 05:44 PM	I think that I'm currently going to import Sigil as a long term base for my player characters as they move to and from there back to Toril. I'm going to run The Invasion of the Githyanki and there's no place better in reality to get weapons against the Clueless Primes than Sigil. Plus, it'll help them recruit the Githzerai against the Githyanki.