Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golem2176 09-04-04, 11:45 AM	How much of a revamp does the Forgotten Realms get from 3.0 to 3.5? Also I am considering the Player's Guide to Faerun, but is it really necessary? How much brand new info is in the book?
Kuje31 09-04-04, 11:54 AM	How much of a revamp does the Forgotten Realms get from 3.0 to 3.5? Also I am considering the Player's Guide to Faerun, but is it really necessary? How much brand new info is in the book? Most of it is 3.5 updates to the regional feats, domains, spells, etc. I would say the new info is the updates to the timeline, which are the details of the return of Shade and some of the events of the Spider Queen novels. The planar info is new since that wasn't flushed out in the FRCS.
warlockco 09-04-04, 03:00 PM	It's one of the books that a FR based campaign group, should have at least one copy of.
The_Declaration 09-04-04, 03:31 PM	Golem, the Player's Guide is not necessary, I use it, but I could run a campaing in the FR without. But it's a good rule reference to own. The info about the timeline that Kuje is talking about is quite nice, but it's only 6 pages... Then you have a good chapter about the psis in Faerûn, and one about Planes. I also find the spell lists very useful. If i were you, i'd try to take a look at it before I buy it.
Frodo Lives 09-04-04, 05:55 PM	I have it and quite frankly I'm quite disapointed in it. It is one of those books that either the enitre group has full access or no one should. I am a big believer in keeping characters as balanced as possible when using non core material, and there is a ton of stuff that seems way overpowered. Even more so than the FRCS. Most of what is in there is feats, spells, Prc, and so forth. There is not a ton of flavor material like the FRCS. I like having the book, but it is not used in the current campaign. It is not a must have, there are a lot of other books out there that I'd spend money on first.
Decepticons 09-04-04, 10:09 PM	As a FR Dungeon Master, I was seriouslly disapointed in this book and also recommend that you take a long look at it before you buy it. I honestly think it should have been put out as errata, and I'm not one who generally bashes WoTC products. Considering how much I loved the FRCS book, the new Players Guide could have been much, much better. The amount of new material does not justify the price, and the amount of "updated" material could have been put out as a 20 page .pdf or word file (35 page if you include spells).
Ranger REG 09-05-04, 02:14 AM	And exactly ... specifically cite them ... what you find lacking in the Player's Guide, which is nothing more than 3.5e update companion to FRCS?
warlockco 09-05-04, 02:55 AM	As a FR Dungeon Master, I was seriouslly disapointed in this book and also recommend that you take a long look at it before you buy it. I honestly think it should have been put out as errata, and I'm not one who generally bashes WoTC products. Considering how much I loved the FRCS book, the new Players Guide could have been much, much better. The amount of new material does not justify the price, and the amount of "updated" material could have been put out as a 20 page .pdf or word file (35 page if you include spells). So the information on the FR Cosmology, new feats, spells, PrCs are all useless? I like the way the Region System has been revamped, also. It is a book that not neccessarily everyone must have, but every FR Group should have at least one copy of.
Kuje31 09-05-04, 03:17 AM	So the information on the FR Cosmology, new feats, spells, PrCs are all useless? I like the way the Region System has been revamped, also. It is a book that not neccessarily everyone must have, but every FR Group should have at least one copy of. Every group? Well I think that's stretching it. :) I don't need the new cosmology, nor do I use the new regional feats, nor the updates to the spells and feats and prcs. So no not every group needs it. Yes I've referenced it for online discussions, but do I use it in my game? Nope not at all. And I'll go with what the other's said, it could have been a better book.
Decepticons 09-05-04, 03:27 AM	So the information on the FR Cosmology, new feats, spells, PrCs are all useless? Honestly, to me, yes. I mean, there a hundred d20 books out there from WoTC and other publishers filled with feats, spells and PrCs. Don't need anymore. This DM wants fluff. My PC's are perfectly capable of creating and submitting (to me) a spell or PrC, if they can't find what they want among the (literally) 60 to 70 d20 books piled around my apartment. I hate the new cosmology. Think its silly. The PGtF suggests that there are only a few portals that lead to the planes. However, reading through the FR novles, modules and fluff books, its obvious that one or the other is wrong, because all the other FR resources suggests the planes are honeycombed with portals. I liked the "old" cosmology that had everything as a seperate plane, with connecting points via portals. This "climb the tree of life"...Bah I say! I like the way the Region System has been revamped, also. Okay, I did like that, but again, it could have been released as a 3 page errata .pdf. And exactly ... specifically cite them ... what you find lacking in the Player's Guide, which is nothing more than 3.5e update companion to FRCS? That's exactly what I found lacking...hehe. The book was, for the most part, simply a set of errata updating the FRCS to 3.5. Cosmology (even though I dont like how its set up) was an interesting read, but prety useless unless you're going planes hopping. We had 23 pages devoted to regional areas for just about every race that walks Toril. Thats great, but I really don't care. Dwarves are from the mountains. What a mind blowing revelation! And, it turns out, Elves live in the woods! Who knew?!?! More issues: A) Many of the feats are recycled or updated. B) Many of the PrC's are recycled and updated. Many are so specific that they don't really belong in a book like this (For example, the Zhentarim spy could have been put in the BoVD. Morningstar of Lathander could have appeared in Complete Devine (and just called Morningstar). Additionaly, as I said, I could play DnD and do nothing else for the next 20 years and never use all the PrC's published across the spectrum of the d20 (fantasy) world. Don't need anymore more PrC's. Ever. Got plenty. Focus. On. Something. Else. C) Spells. Okay, added some more spells. Modified some existing spells. Release as Erratta. 39 of 191 pages are devoted to spell updates, spell additoins or domain additions. This goes back to item B. I have enough spells (including dozens, maybe hundreds of player-made spells) to last me forever and still not cast them all. Don't need more spells. Got plenty. Focus. On. Something. Else. D) 22 pages devoted to epic level crap and new magic items. Epic level stuff can be released in Epic Handbook 3.5 and people who play epic level campaigns can go buy it. I have enough magic items in the 70+ publications that I own...I dunno, I could probably count 10,000 unique items if I went through them all. I SERIOUSLY don't need new magic items. Got plenty. Focus. On. Something. Else. E) 27 Pages on cosmology. Release as bonus material on WoTC web site. F) SIX (6)! Pages of campaign Journal taking us through the last several months. THAT'S IT? SIX MONTHS OF LIFE IN FAERUN CONDENSED INTO SIX PAGES? OUTRAGEOUS!! This was the sole reason I wanted this book and it got six pages. Out of 191. G) Then, the last 30 pages or so are mostly devoted to...PrC's. Wait, what? Didn't we spend 40+ pages on this already? But these are psionic, vile, exalted and other "odd" PrC's, so they don't go with the other PrC's. They go back here. In the pages that should have been fluffing out the last six months. So sorry. If you want to know what happened over the last six months, buy the novels.
Purple Dragon Knight 09-05-04, 03:59 AM	Very good points all around Decepticons! I feel the same here. I'm a DM, so I only bought it to keep current and have the 3.0 FR PrCs in their official 3.5 versions, only to find out that they did not update the PrCs found in the accessory books (LoD, MoF, F&P, SM). Worse: they go and put new PrCs in there! not only do they not update the F&P ones my players have now used for six months, but they go and put new ones. I shouts "Hey folks! stop your campaigns and start a new one, or kill your characters and reroll a new Eye of Horus-Re!! step right in folks!" I must admit that the Cosmology section appealed to me, and I was quite excited at first... but after reading it for a while, I found that it doesn't provide much to support the DM... and I <shamefully> haven't mustered the courage to finish reading the book past that chapter... At least with Serpent Kingdoms WotC just relaxed their "crunch-throttle" a little, and I can finally read something new and fluffy... God, they should ALWAYS, ALWAYS have Ed Greenwood as a co-author of FR supplements... the other designers seem too easily bendable/influenced towards the standard "3.5 FR Format"... It's like accountants walk behind the designers with whips, but Ed is the only one with an armor bonus of +1 or higher... (or maybe out of the whip's reach, working from his secret lair in far, far away, wild and rebellious Canada?)
Cunning Linguist 09-05-04, 08:46 AM	D) 22 pages devoted to epic level crap and new magic items. Epic level stuff can be released in Epic Handbook 3.5 and people who play epic level campaigns can go buy it. Yea, if that book ever comes out. (no one on the epic boards think that there ever will be a 3.5 epic book, atleast not in the next few years) G) Then, the last 30 pages or so are mostly devoted to...PrC's. Wait, what? Didn't we spend 40+ pages on this already? But these are psionic, vile, exalted and other "odd" PrC's, so they don't go with the other PrC's. They go back here. In the pages that should have been fluffing out the last six months. So sorry. If you want to know what happened over the last six months, buy the novels. Sooo.. people who use vile and psionics and exalted should not have any support for them in the realms? I have Vile and Exalted and Epic, and I got the book since they put those chapters in there. Realm journal.. planar update.. these things don't mean much, but the support for exstra core books. Now there is something. So, wizards wants to make books that appeal to people who have the exstra corebooks and forgotten realms book, instead of the core forgotten realms people.. Who would have thought that Wizards made books that appeal to the people who buy lots of books instead of those who buy few..
Frodo Lives 09-05-04, 10:05 AM	So the information on the FR Cosmology, new feats, spells, PrCs are all useless? For the most part, Yes. A lot of the new feats, spells and PrCs are way overpowered, most of the regional feats are so far and away better than any other feat that every player would want to take one. This would lead to yet another part of character creation to be min/maxed. Where you want your character to come from would be based more on what kind of regional feat you want him to have rather than personal preferance or a convincing backstory. You also better make sure that every character has access to this book otherwise there will be a fairly big difference in power. Cleric archer, take Militia and be from the Dales, suddenly proficent with all Martial weapons. Barbarians would almost always take the Tireless feat. This leads to every character now even comes from the same region, one less thing to make a character an actual individual instead of numbers on a page. The Initate feats are too powerful, while they are a good idea to try to give each cleric a different feel, they also make them much much stonger. The spells are OK, but again many of them are far stronger than any of the PHB spells of similar level. So much of this book is not used at all in my campaign. Some of the PrC are OK, but some (like the Morninglord of Lathander) are too strong, I mean is there a single cleric of Lathander (if using this book) who wouldn't take this PrC and the Initate of Lathander feat? I doubt it looking from a power perspective. Other PrC like the Zhent Spy or Spellguard of Silverymoon, Purple Dragoon Knight, Evereskan Tomb Guardian, are for NPCs only unless you are running a specific campaign for these PrCs, so they aren't very useful. Most of the rest of the PrC could have (and some have) been put into the Complete Series of books without missing a step. The new magic items are OK, but how often would you use them seeing as they, for the most part, are unique items and to have even one or two appear in a campaign would be a lot. If you use unique or intelligent weapons they aren't that hard to create on your own as they are pretty rare and take less effort to do than a single detailed NPC. This leaves the Cosmology section is decent, but hardly needed for most campaigns. I looked at it as fluff, probably the most out of any chapter. Although I view it as a good thing! I'd like more fluff, 6 pages devoted to the timeline of the last 6 months is pretty bad. I was hoping at least they would get more in depth with a lot of it. All they did was run down what happened in a few novel series! Don't think that was by accident either, all they put that in for was to sell more of the novels :rolleyes: , not actually provide information on what is really going on in FR. Most of this book would only be used if you are running a very high powered campaign as it is filled with munchkin power dreams and very little else.
Decepticons 09-05-04, 11:59 AM	Sooo.. people who use vile and psionics and exalted should not have any support for them in the realms? I have Vile and Exalted and Epic, and I got the book since they put those chapters in there. As do I. However, I have never run a campaign that needed them. My PC's would rather play a standard character that still has some risk associated with it than an exalted, epic level super-guy. If thats how others want to play, that is NO PROBLEM. Play whatever style is fun for you and your group. That's why we play, right? However, these things should be put in approprate books. Vile/Exalted PrCs should have been in the BoVD and the BoED. Epic level/style stuff should be in Epic Handbook 3.5 (sorry if it doesn't see publication, but Epic Handbook 3.0 sold poorly...) Once you hit Epic levels, the rules start to bend anyway. Do you really need a rule-set for it anymore? We're talking about characters to who a WISH spell has become common, everday magic. Realm journal.. planar update.. these things don't mean much, but the support for exstra core books. I'm betting you're not a DM, or at least not a DM all the time. I don't know a DM out there who cares about more "crunch" materail. There is so much out there in a wealth of books that, as I said in my first post, it would be nearly impossible to do it all. Gimme fluff, and lots of it. I have all the crunch material I will EVER need. If I do end up needed it, my players are perfectly capable of designing a PrC that fits what they want to play, and I dare say that at least two of them are better at it than WoTC.
Dielzen 09-05-04, 05:22 PM	One of my biggest issues with 2e FR books was that hardly any of the supplements tied into others, unless they were part of a series. I don't think a single FR book came out that had Player's Option rules in it, for example. Here, with 3.5, the PG takes pieces of optional rule systems and adds them to the core of the setting. Someone mentioned that they should have been in the original BoBD/BoED to being with ....NO. I already don't like the fact that half the material is core (read: Grayhawk) material and requires major alterations to fit into FR (if it's even possible to convert and still keep the concept intact). Can you imagine a core player opening up his BoED and going "Celebrant of Sharess? Who the $%^ is Sharess?" However, what really should be done is to have a FR section of the website titled "Integration" or somesuch. Then they can take all the books and add in new spells to PrCs, new domains to deities, new racial options for PrCs (like Minotaurs being able to take Arcane Archer), etc. However, in a capitalist world, the odds of this happening....well, close to the same odds as this PC my player just "rolled" up with 18-18-18-16-16-12.
Decepticons 09-05-04, 05:39 PM	Can you imagine a core player opening up his BoED and going "Celebrant of Sharess? Who the $%^ is Sharess?" Why not? WoTC certainly had no problem transplaning PrC's from the FR to their core books. Purple Dragon Knight and Thayan Knight both appear in Complete Warrior. These are both FR specific PrC's that were transplanted to "core" books because, honestly, there are so many PrC's out there that it seems like theyr'e having more and more trouble coming up with anything new and innovative.
warlockco 09-05-04, 06:58 PM	Why not? WoTC certainly had no problem transplaning PrC's from the FR to their core books. Purple Dragon Knight and Thayan Knight both appear in Complete Warrior. These are both FR specific PrC's that were transplanted to "core" books because, honestly, there are so many PrC's out there that it seems like theyr'e having more and more trouble coming up with anything new and innovative. Purple Dragon Knight was easily incorporated into Core, because when it comes right down to it, the PDK is nothing more than a Knight Commander. The Thayan Knight is the same way, with it being a slavish Warrior Servant to a Mage. The Black Flame Zealot is a holy assassin to a god of fire. Most of the FR PrCs that were put in Core material were fairly generic to begin with.
Decepticons 09-05-04, 07:05 PM	Some the added PrC's in PGtF are pretty generic as well. More of a problem though, some of them a VERY, VERY specific. To specific. As someone else pointed out, why would any cleric of Lathender not take the Morningstar of Lathender PrC? They continue to advance as clerics and get a pile of other abilities as well. Where's the drawback? Aditionally, it makes me wonder...if there are priest PrC's for some dieties, does that mean there are PrC's for EVERY deity? If so, where are they? The point, I guess, is that I (and many other DM's I know) really don't want to see any more PrC's, spells, magic items, or "crunch" gaming books. There are so many out there, that we are left wondering why WoTC keeps churning them out and why players keep buying books full of them. You don't need a book to pick a PrC, you just need a little imagination to make your own and submit it to your DM.
Raitaro 09-05-04, 07:17 PM	The PGtF was deliberately crunchy people. I find it both very amusing and frustrating that you moan about the book being exactly what it was meant be.
Cunning Linguist 09-05-04, 07:20 PM	As do I. However, I have never run a campaign that needed them. My PC's would rather play a standard character that still has some risk associated with it than an exalted, epic level super-guy. If thats how others want to play, that is NO PROBLEM. Play whatever style is fun for you and your group. That's why we play, right? However, these things should be put in approprate books. Vile/Exalted PrCs should have been in the BoVD and the BoED. Epic level/style stuff should be in Epic Handbook 3.5 (sorry if it doesn't see publication, but Epic Handbook 3.0 sold poorly...) Once you hit Epic levels, the rules start to bend anyway. Do you really need a rule-set for it anymore? We're talking about characters to who a WISH spell has become common, everday magic. I'm betting you're not a DM, or at least not a DM all the time. I don't know a DM out there who cares about more "crunch" materail. There is so much out there in a wealth of books that, as I said in my first post, it would be nearly impossible to do it all. Gimme fluff, and lots of it. I have all the crunch material I will EVER need. If I do end up needed it, my players are perfectly capable of designing a PrC that fits what they want to play, and I dare say that at least two of them are better at it than WoTC. First off, you lose that bet. I am a DM.. and I DM all the time. Why I want crunch? Well, most people see to much black and white on the crunch material. A PrC with a Vile Prereq tells tomes about what kind of people use it, and how common it is. It tells you what kind of people he would meet, what this person is strong/weak in. If a Cyric PrC gives a good HD, I would presume that these guys are mostly the brute force of the followers. If they are low HD the minds behind the act, or perhaps the inside guy. The Zhentarim spy for one shows that the Zhentarim could have spyes everywhere. Even among the Harpers, they are that good. So the Zhentarim has a really really good spy network. It could have said "the Zhentarim have really good spys" but then I would ask: "How good?", "Just look at the PrC". It tells volums about the Zhentarim spy and it's place in the black network. Open your mind and read between the lines with PrC and Feats. So Epic, Vile and all other books should be 500-600 pages long, so that no other product ever needs to talk about them? When they made Epic Level Handbook, they should have forseen all the PrC and all the spells and feats ever to be made in the history of D&D? Or do you just want them to stop supporting things after they give out the book? If you start talking about how rules bend and don't apply anymore when epic comes around, it's clear you don't play epic. Rules are even more importent there then before. Perhaps a 15 level party could come away with a well worded wish, but you better not let a 31 level party get away with that. Then you have to stick to the spelldiscription, and it shows that Wish is indeed a limited spell in so many ways.
Decepticons 09-05-04, 07:37 PM	First off, you lose that bet. I am a DM.. and I DM all the time. Why I want crunch? Well, most people see to much black and white on the crunch material. A PrC with a Vile Prereq tells tomes about what kind of people use it, and how common it is. It tells you what kind of people he would meet, what this person is strong/weak in. If a Cyric PrC gives a good HD, I would presume that these guys are mostly the brute force of the followers. If they are low HD the minds behind the act, or perhaps the inside guy. My point is that if I need a Zhent Spy PrC, it would take me 30-45 minutes to creatue one...or I could just use one of the two dozen or so existing spy based PrC templates that are lying around in these dozens of books and baseline it off that. If I need a brute force Cyric PrC with devine magic, I can make that too and there are a few PrC that already lean in this direction in Complete Devine. PrC's are getting specific to the point of stupidity in my opinion. Next thing you know, there's going to be a book on village PrC's. Fear "They Jolly Bartender" PrC or the "Sultry Wench" PrC (okay...that one I might be interested in...haha). The Zhentarim spy for one shows that the Zhentarim could have spyes everywhere. Ummm, the core material and novels make it very very clear that the Zhents have spies everywhere. Why do I need a PrC to continue to point out the obvious? I'd much rather WoTC tell me more about the Zhentarim black network and, if I decide I want to move a campaign in that direction, allow me to create a PrC. So Epic, Vile and all other books should be 500-600 pages long, so that no other product ever needs to talk about them? When they made Epic Level Handbook, they should have forseen all the PrC and all the spells and feats ever to be made in the history of D&D? Or do you just want them to stop supporting things after they give out the book? No, but the PGtF was billed as an update to the 3.0 FRCS book, which contained hundreds of pages of fluff. However, the PGtF was nothing but a bunch of rule updates (not changes...updates). As I've been saying all along, I feel that most of this book should have been released as eratta or web-based bonus material. Your right, I don't play Epic. No desire to. If my campaigns ever last that long, I'll get to it then. Do I think Epic should get an update to 3.5? Yup...and it should be released as eratta as well.
Cunning Linguist 09-05-04, 07:51 PM	Nono.. PGtF was made to update the REALMS to 3.5 rules. Not just FRCS and other 3.0 books. One of the new 3.5 rules is to include materials from other core books into the Realms. You could see this in things like Underdark (who had psions), and even DMG 3.5 (where they have epic as part of the core setting). 3.5 is more then just changing DR rules and skills, it's a change of mindset for how they make books.
Frodo Lives 09-05-04, 09:19 PM	For me it wasn't so much that it was filled with crunch and almost no fluff (although I was expecting a lot more fluff), it was that most of the crunch was, as written, is far to powerful compared to core. Even compared to FRCS. The PrC are either too powerful, too specific, or something we've seen before there really isn't a whole lot that would be used in my campaign. I would have preferred a decent balance between fluff and crunch, as there are a lot of events that have supposedly changed FR, from the return of Bane and the Shade, to Lolth disappearing. These are things that if I as a DM want to put in my campaign I would like more info than what has currently been released. I'm not saying that I couldn't make it up, but I wouldn't have to buy any non-core book I could make all that stuff up as well. Like I said before, don't think for a minute that the only timelines that were updated were directly from novels is just a fluke. This was only put in to sell more novels, not for any flavor reasons. Otherwise they would have updated other things like Banes return or even new events that we haven't even heard about that aren't directly related to a series of novels. Bottom line is that the PgtF is the only book (out of many) that I wish I didn't order on line and waited to look at it first, because to me it was a big disappointment. There simply isn't much in the entire book that I would use for a campaign. Most of the stuff is either too strong or irrelevant to my campaign.
Alac Luin 09-05-04, 10:25 PM	Like I said before, don't think for a minute that the only timelines that were updated were directly from novels is just a fluke. This was only put in to sell more novels, not for any flavor reasons. Otherwise they would have updated other things like Banes return or even new events that we haven't even heard about that aren't directly related to a series of novels. I'd have to disagree a bit here. Banes return was covered in the FRCS. Maybe not well, but it was covered. Sure they are events in novels, but not all events in all novels are covered. No mention of the events in Sembia/Hilsfar/cormanthor from the Sembia books. The long silence of a goddess that is many peoples faverot bad guys impacts many people. The return of shade, was mentioned in the FRCS, but the near destruction of Everesca wasonly briefly mentioned, the melting of the ice wasn't. This is something that impacts a large amount of land and will affect any campain set in the north/silver marches/ Thay, cormyr/ western heatlands etc. If it has the side effect of selling more novels, so? We, the costomers and people on these boards, have asked to have this done, so we don't need to reference novels and guess what town was destroyed. The next major FR book might just contain the effects of the dragon rage.
Frodo Lives 09-05-04, 10:55 PM	I'd have to disagree a bit here. Banes return was covered in the FRCS. Maybe not well, but it was covered. A few lines is barely "covered". What about the internal strife in Cyric's church over the res. of Bane? Exactly how did Bane steal back part of Cyric's portfolio? What long term repercussions will there be to other Deities and their churchs? There could and should have been a lot more said about this topic for one, as it is a lot more significant to most campaigns than Lolth's silence. Sure they are events in novels, but not all events in all novels are covered. No mention of the events in Sembia/Hilsfar/cormanthor from the Sembia books. I'm not saying that all events that were in novels were/should be covered, but that it isn't merely a fluke that only events that were from novels were updated. The long silence of a goddess that is many peoples faverot bad guys impacts many people. The return of shade, was mentioned in the FRCS, but the near destruction of Everesca wasonly briefly mentioned, the melting of the ice wasn't. This is something that impacts a large amount of land and will affect any campain set in the north/silver marches/ Thay, cormyr/ western heatlands etc. I'm not saying that these events are insignificant, only that they were not the only significant events that occured, and as a matter of fact I do think that Bane's return is far more impactful that the WotSQ events are. If it has the side effect of selling more novels, so? We, the costomers and people on these boards, have asked to have this done, so we don't need to reference novels and guess what town was destroyed. The next major FR book might just contain the effects of the dragon rage. Yes, it might. And that in itself is no problem, but my point is that it wasn't just a side effect of selling more novels, it seems to be the whole purpose of the updated timelines! To me that seems wrong. Take a look at the timelines in the FRCS and you will see that even in recent years (FR wise) that every event wasn't from novels, well neither should the timeline updates in PgtFR. I was expecting a lot more fluff/flavor material from this book and was sorely disappointed, and the fact that FR timeline "updates" were there for the main purpose of selling novels annoyed me, to say the least.
Alac Luin 09-05-04, 11:10 PM	We do agree on many of the points here. I do disagree with that it was to only sell novels. I have seen on these boards, awhile back, that something like this be done so someone could keep up on the realms without haveing to buy novels. People asked that if major realms events be placed in dragon or other accesories so they can keep up on the realms, they didn't have the time to read or finances buy novels and accesories. The whole silence of Lolth was a major event, especially seeing the responce it got in these mesege boards, for the realms of others players. So, PGtF had the events that happened between FRCS (Banes return, stealing of Cyric's portfolio and the Zent / Chuch split happened befor the FRCS) and the publishing of the PGtF.
warlockco 09-06-04, 02:25 AM	Aditionally, it makes me wonder...if there are priest PrC's for some dieties, does that mean there are PrC's for EVERY deity? If so, where are they? Yes, ALL the gods have PrCs for their followers. Just look at the 2E material from Powers & Pantheons, Faiths & Avatars, and Demihuman Deities. All 3 books listed at least one Specialty Priest for each god. So that translates to at least 1 PrC for each god, if not more. And with each new book, we tend to get a few more of those PrCs. Might not be the Specialty Priest one, but we do tend to get at least one PrC with each book if not more. As to Regional Feats being powerful, they are supposed to be, that is why you can have only 1 and only at 1st level, unless the feat says you can take it more than once, but you still have to take it as your 1st level feat. As to Players picking a certain Region to be from so they can get the feat from there. Be Logical, in a 1st level game taking place in the North, there is no justifiable reason for a 1st level character from Thesk to be there. In a game in Calimsham, why would a 1st level character from Vaasa be there? With any campaign I run, I always have the players make sensible selections on where they are from. As to 3.5E being more powerful, it isn't. 3.0E was the most powerful, someone had built a 20th level Paladin that could do about 400 HPs (might be off, but fairly certain it was over 200 HPs) of damage with a Shield Bash, that came character even with all the same feats can barely break 100 HPs with 3.5E.
Frodo Lives 09-06-04, 10:41 AM	So, PGtF had the events that happened between FRCS (Banes return, stealing of Cyric's portfolio and the Zent / Chuch split happened befor the FRCS) and the publishing of the PGtF. Actually, the return of Bane happened after the City of Shade appears according to the timeline in FRCS. And the return of Bane really hasn't been covered as well as it should have been as it is a drastic change in the FR comsology. But again that seems like splitting hairs, as the events were placed only a month or two apart. I am just saying that more timeline info could/should have been put in about things that weren't related to novels, or even new events to incorpatrate into a campaign. I read the timelines and my first thought was that it was there simply to sell novels, and the more I look at it the more convinced I am. As to Regional Feats being powerful, they are supposed to be, that is why you can have only 1 and only at 1st level, unless the feat says you can take it more than once, but you still have to take it as your 1st level feat. They are supposed to be, but even with the limitations you better hope that every character has access to it because if they don't the characters that do have it will have a big advantage over those that don't. To me that is the definition of too powerful. I am a big believer that it is only fair that a character shouldn't be more powerful than the others simply because one player has access to a book while another one doesn't. Sure, there are powerful feats, PrC, spells in every book that kind of make me shake my head and say that it's not going to go in my campaign, but in PgtF there is far, far more of it than in almost any other book I've seen. And while I rarely say point blank that something isn't allowed (only a few feats out of the entire Complete Series), most of PgtF would be disallowed at my table, by more than one DM. The crunch is just to powerful compared to other books. Combine that with the fact that there was almost no flavor/fluff that I could use to enhance my game, it turns out that it was a bad buy for me. If you like the book and it sees a lot of use in your campaign without causing problems, good. I'm glad not everyone feels the same way I do, because I was really disappointed after I went through it all.
Decepticons 09-06-04, 10:41 AM	Be Logical, in a 1st level game taking place in the North, there is no justifiable reason for a 1st level character from Thesk to be there. In a game in Calimsham, why would a 1st level character from Vaasa be there? With any campaign I run, I always have the players make sensible selections on where they are from. How is being from Thesk and participating in a campaign that takes place in The North not logical? I live in Virginia. There are people here from Texas, Louisiana, Guatamala and Columbia...and thats just in my apartment building. To assume that NO ONE from Thesk has ever traveled to the North is not sensible. We're talking about a world where teleportation IS possible. Where travel through portals IS possible and where some of the current residents have arrived from different planes or different planets....and you're going to tell me it's not sensible from someone from Thesk to be in the North?!? Bwahahaha! As to Regional Feats being powerful, they are supposed to be, that is why you can have only 1 and only at 1st level, unless the feat says you can take it more than once, but you still have to take it as your 1st level feat. I think the chief complaint about this is that it leads to power-gaming. It's like, if I allow one of my PC's to have/buy a simple weapon for 2gp that does 2d10 points of damage, can make reach and adjacent attacks and gives a trip bonus, I'm giving them something that messes up the game balance at low levels.
Cunning Linguist 09-06-04, 10:52 AM	How is being from Thesk and participating in a campaign that takes place in The North not logical? I live in Virginia. There are people here from Texas, Louisiana, Guatamala and Columbia...and thats just in my apartment building. To assume that NO ONE from Thesk has ever traveled to the North is not sensible. We're talking about a world where teleportation IS possible. Where travel through portals IS possible and where some of the current residents have arrived from different planes or different planets....and you're going to tell me it's not sensible from someone from Thesk to be in the North?!? And how did these people get from these places? Did they walk? Or perhaps ride there horse? Without trains and plains, traveling from one region to another is reserved for traders and adventures. People in the realms seldom leave there home town.. elves in waterdeep think that the High Forest is located in a place far far away. Some people think that Thay is a place made up by there mothers to scare them into doing the right thing. If your playing in the north, there is little logic in being from Vaasa.
Decepticons 09-06-04, 11:20 AM	Without trains and plains, traveling from one region to another is reserved for traders and adventures. Yes, thats mostly true...but the point is the PC are adventurers, so they qualify for the "being from somplace far away is not illogical" catagory. While air, train and auto travel makes getting from point A to point B easy for the "common person" in our world, things like teleportation and portals make getting from point A to point B nearly instantanious for those who have access to them. elves in waterdeep Is exactly my point. Elves are not from Waterdeep (or at least they haven't been for many, many generations). To say that Elves in Waterdeep see the High Forest as some far away place is fine, they very well might, but you're making my argument for me. If its possible for Elves to be in Waterdeep, its no less plausible for a Theskan to be in The North. By your argument, there shouldn't be any elves in Waterdeep who aren't merchants or adventurers.
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 11:41 AM	I gotta agree with Decepticons. Adventurers are the exception. Most adventurers travel far and wide from home. They have wanderlust. Furthermore, I would suggest that Faerunian folk probably have a much greater percentage of people with wanderlust. Adventuring is a very common career in the Realms. A lot of towns and settlements and castles have been built by former adventurers. Many Rulers, Nobles, Priests, Inn Keepers, Tavern owners and role-models throughout society are former adventurers and probably tell tales to impressionable youth. Adventuring seems like a good way to improve one's lot in life in the Realms. At the very least it might be a way to escape a humdrum meager existence if one is not content with local career prospects. I would venture to say that immigration and picking up and moving towns is more common than you might think in the Realms and certainly much more of an option in the Realms than say for a serf in Earth's middle-ages.
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 11:50 AM	By the way, don't forget that the entire western hemisphere of our globe was entirely settled all the way from the North to the Southern tip of South America by people who walked here. Across a frozen sea nonetheless! Don't underestimate walking, it can get you places. You don't need trains or cars or planes or even a horse. The average person can walk 20 miles or more in a day. Enough to get you to the next town over. You could easily walk 200 miles in a tenday. That's 600 miles you can walk in a month. Maybe more if you are really fit and determined.
Decepticons 09-06-04, 11:54 AM	Don't underestimate walking, it can get you places. Haha, good point, and something I should have remembered. As a former member of the military, I learned a lot about walking and you're right, it certainly can get you places....something I learned regardless of my actual desire to walk long distance carrying heavy loads.
Cunning Linguist 09-06-04, 12:20 PM	By the way, don't forget that the entire western hemisphere of our globe was entirely settled all the way from the North to the Southern tip of South America by people who walked here. Across a frozen sea nonetheless! Don't underestimate walking, it can get you places. You don't need trains or cars or planes or even a horse. Yes, but that took several thousand years. A region feat is only if you or your parents are from the region. By your argument, there shouldn't be any elves in Waterdeep who aren't merchants or adventurers Waterdeep, or Deepwater was there even when Netheril was at it's hight. 3000 years ago. Elves have always been there, since there is A) A portal to Evermeet there, and B) a Elven city outside the harbor.
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 01:53 PM	Here's the thing. I agree that a character should have a good explanation in order to take a regional feat. His parents should be from there or he should have grown up in the culture. If a character in my campaign wants to take a regional feat from a far away land then they better have a very good story as to how they came by that feat. But my players are all very creative and have wonderful background stories. It is not such a really big hurdle to jump. As for getting from point A to point B in Faerun, I am just suggesting it is not really so improbable that an adventurer would be from a far off place and any good player or DM should be able to think of a plausible story as to how and why they travelled such a great distance from their homeland.
chme 09-06-04, 04:21 PM	I was also very disappointed in the new player's guide to Faerun. As a DM, I would have loved for it to be a massive, non-spoiler, appetizing players' introduction to everyday life, adventuring life, some geography, weather, fauna, technology etc etc in Faerun. That would have made me recommend my players to buy the book. I'd recommend FRCS to them, but there's stuff in it I don't want them to know, and it's not written to put the player into adventuring mood, but rather to put the DM into a creative mood.
warlockco 09-06-04, 05:27 PM	Yes, thats mostly true...but the point is the PC are adventurers, so they qualify for the "being from somplace far away is not illogical" catagory. While air, train and auto travel makes getting from point A to point B easy for the "common person" in our world, things like teleportation and portals make getting from point A to point B nearly instantanious for those who have access to them. First off in a 1st level campaign, it is generally assumed that the character's are just beginning their careers. So a lad/lass of 16 winters is going to find her way to Waterdeep from Thesk? That is very unlikely given that the trip itself is several months if not years to make. As to being magically transported, how besides maybe somehow finding a gate. What incentive would a wizard have to teleport this kid to Waterdeep for? When I start a campaign at 1st level, I tell the Players where the Starting Region is, and they can pick a Region up to 2 Regions away. Anything farther than that, they better have a very good story. On the Elves in Waterdeep, the elves have an established population there. Waterdeep has its own "version" of "Elf-town" just like most major cities in our world have a "China-town." Waterdeep was a popular stopping point for alot of Moon Elves that decided not to Retreat all the way to Evermeet.
Decepticons 09-06-04, 05:49 PM	If you want to limit your characters in this way, thats fine, it's your world, but I think your mistaken to do so. You're assuming a lot about other peoples campaigns as well. Yes, many characters wish to have their characters start at a young age, but theres nothing that says a 30 year old farmer finally just got sick of shoveling poo and planting seeds and gave the Faerunian equivelant of take this job and shove it. Most people don't do this. 99.9% of people don't do this, but to me, adventurers are special. They ARE the people who did this, or some other abnormal action that made them adventurers. Yes, it's very unlikely that someone from Cormyer ended up in The Great Dale, but its only unlikely, not impossible, and thats my point. As to being magically transported, how besides maybe somehow finding a gate. What incentive would a wizard have to teleport this kid to Waterdeep for? 1. The Queen (or a noble, or courtessan) has an illigitimate child and pays the court wizard to transport the child to an awaiting family he's paying hush money to, far away. 2. The child is special in some manner and being hunted by someone. A kindly wizard finds out and agrees to transport the child away. Thats two I came up with in about 30 seconds. Unlikely? Of course! Impossible in a fantasy campaign? Nope. On the Elves in Waterdeep, the elves have an established population there. Waterdeep has its own "version" of "Elf-town" just like most major cities in our world have a "China-town." Waterdeep was a popular stopping point for alot of Moon Elves that decided not to Retreat all the way to Evermeet. Okay, but there are individuals of just about every race just about everywhere in Faerun. That wouldn't happen in your version of the realms, because, according to you, people never travel far from where they're born. If thats how you want to play, no worries, but my players would feel very limited by it and its an impossition I dont need to put in.
Cunning Linguist 09-06-04, 05:55 PM	Okay, but there are individuals of just about every race just about everywhere in Faerun. That wouldn't happen in your version of the realms, because, according to you, people never travel far from where they're born. If thats how you want to play, no worries, but my players would feel very limited by it and its an impossition I dont need to put in. Like I said: Waterdeep, or Deepwater was there even when Netheril was at it's hight. 3000 years ago. Elves have always been there, since there is A) A portal to Evermeet there, and B) a Elven city outside the harbor.
chme 09-06-04, 05:58 PM	On the Elves in Waterdeep, the elves have an established population there. Waterdeep has its own "version" of "Elf-town" just like most major cities in our world have a "China-town." That's very interesting news! Is this elf-town canon? Where in Waterdeep is it, and where can I read about it?
Cunning Linguist 09-06-04, 07:22 PM	That's very interesting news! Is this elf-town canon? Where in Waterdeep is it, and where can I read about it? I don't know about these elf towns, but I know they hang out in the city of the dead and drink wine and dream about the forest.
Frodo Lives 09-06-04, 09:11 PM	What about the child of a traveling merchant? Or some other type of profession that travels around quite a bit such as a mercenary soldier or an entertainer? Perhaps your family moved because of a disaster, natural or otherwise that made your original region unsafe, but still carried on and raised their children with their natural heritage? There are quite a few ways to get around this, but bottom line is I have never DMed or played in a game that significantly limited the choice of where a character came from unless it was for a specific adventure idea. Again to do so is to stifle character creation to control character power. If you don't use regional feats there is no need to even worry much about this aspect, if you do it can cause a lot of problems. To have to do this now to compensate for regional feats makes it pretty obvious that there is something wrong with the power level of them. What about characters starting above first level? Either in a campaign that starts at a higher level or someone replacing a character that died? How would you even start to reasonably limit their starting choices? I would also hope that no one would have access to regional feats if the entire group didn't either, as that would be unbalancing. What if you are playing in a region that has a really good regional feat for a rogue, but none that really fit the concept you have for your wizard? Why should the rogue have the advantage just because the DM decides where your character can or can not come from? How much easier would it be to play a cleric archer when you have access to the Milita feat, or a Barbarian with the tireless feat? Not to mention some of the others that seem just a little too good such as Arcane schooling, or Artist (for a bard), or Dreadful Wrath? Don't get me started on what Mercantile Background could do in campaigns where buying and selling fairly powerful magic are more common or easier (or even possible) to do. This is just the problem with regional feats, I don't allow the Initate feats as they do give more power to clerics (while I don't think they are overpowered as a class, I certianly don't think they need another boost), again it could lead to a players choice in deity based on who has an initate feat available, instead of other reasons. More min/maxing instead of creating an individual character. There is a host of problems with the material in PgtF, and unless you know what you are getting into and all the players have total access to it to optimize their characters there will be all kinds of balance problems. For a book based almost exclusively on rules and rules changes it is ridiculous for the book to contain so much overpowered and quite frankly, unless the game is specifically designed to use these rules, unusable material.
warlockco 09-07-04, 12:37 AM	When I start a campaign at 1st level, I tell the Players where the Starting Region is, and they can pick a Region up to 2 Regions away. Anything farther than that, they better have a very good story. Seems people were ignoring that little bit. The group I play with, with the exception of 2 players, give no thought at all to background for their characters. For anyone that bothers to come up with a good background or even is willing to work on a background, I will work with them. Its the one person that is adamant about being a Barbarian from Icewind Dale, despite the fact the game is in Thay and starting at 1st level. And the player gives no reason why he is in Thay being from Icewind Dale. In a game that starts at a higher level or a character that is replacing one that has died, I grant alot of leeway. 1. The Queen (or a noble, or courtessan) has an illigitimate child and pays the court wizard to transport the child to an awaiting family he's paying hush money to, far away. 2. The child is special in some manner and being hunted by someone. A kindly wizard finds out and agrees to transport the child away. Those are the type of backgrounds, provided they are fleshed out a bit, that I'm willing to work with to allow a character to be from far away. That's very interesting news! Is this elf-town canon? Where in Waterdeep is it, and where can I read about it? There isn't one that I know of, but was given as a "generalization" of how people of ethnic/cultural groups tend to hang out together. And Elves do tend to congregate together, especially the younger ones. I don't know about these elf towns, but I know they hang out in the city of the dead and drink wine and dream about the forest. Just as Cunning Linguist indicated.
chme 09-07-04, 03:03 AM	There isn't one that I know of, but was given as a "generalization" of how people of ethnic/cultural groups tend to hang out together. And Elves do tend to congregate together, especially the younger ones. Just as Cunning Linguist indicated. From Volo's Guide to Waterdeep and the City of Splendors box, there aren't any china-towns of any racial sort in Waterdeep, nor does there seem to be very much room to place them if you want them to be bigger 'towns' than just 3-4 adjacent houses. But now that I hear that the idea was your own rather than a canon one, I'm not so sure it's something I would want in my Waterdeep. As I understand it, the city is much more about guilds than it is about ethnic groups, and there would have to be quite a few little china-towns given the many races that dwell in the city and that like to 'stick together'. There are a few places and taverns - like the Elfstone Tavern in Castle Ward (for elves and half-elves according to Volo) - that are heavily dominated by ethnic groups, and I would rather use them instead. The sea-elves in the harbour might also be something to look into. As for City of the Dead, it is a nice place by day, but from the maps it seems to be a rather human, well tended park. There are already a lot of non-elves that stroll about there for its peaceful atmosphere, and I don't imagine elves being in majority. Maybe the Silvanus/Mielikki temple area in Sea Ward is also possible for the dreamy elf to use. The area is supposedly forested, but looks very small on the map. Last time a player of mine went there, I made it so that that the place felt a lot bigger once 'inside'. The player followed a path for 20 minutes in an area that should have taken 5 to cross :). Again though, I imagine rangers and druids of many other races would come there also.
warlockco 09-07-04, 05:42 AM	I never said they had their own exclusive areas, I said they tend to congregate together in certain areas. If those areas happen to have others there, then they would share that area, but still stick together in their own group. There are a few places and taverns - like the Elfstone Tavern in Castle Ward (for elves and half-elves according to Volo) - that are heavily dominated by ethnic groups, and I would rather use them instead. The sea-elves in the harbour might also be something to look into. Those are the types of areas I was indicating, not things like elven ghettos, which is what you seem to be reading into.
chme 09-07-04, 06:22 AM	I never said they had their own exclusive areas, I said they tend to congregate together in certain areas. If those areas happen to have others there, then they would share that area, but still stick together in their own group. Those are the types of areas I was indicating, not things like elven ghettos, which is what you seem to be reading into. A few lines up, you wrote this in your argument with Deceptions: Waterdeep has its own "version" of "Elf-town" just like most major cities in our world have a "China-town." I understood that, not as an attempt at generalization or your own campaign idea, but as a piece of actual realmslore that you had, which is why I got interested and looked up my own sources. I just posted the last post to tell of what I found/didn't find. That elves - and particularly gold elves - prefer the company of other elves is common knowledge and I agree fully. What interested me was wether this had left any marks on the city of Waterdeep (as I currently DM a waterdhavian campaign). I'd like to add too, that a place like Elfstone tavern still has a few half-elves, which to many of the more 'ethnic' elves are harder to suffer than humans. It would seem to me that Waterdeep should be one of those places where elves don't stick together as much as they do elsewhere.
Golem2176 09-07-04, 09:02 PM	I would like to thank everybody who responded. I had no idea that posting this question would spawn quite a debate, bu I relish in hearing from all points of view. I am going to take a long hard look at at my FLGS before buying it. Thanks for all the advice.
warlockco 09-08-04, 01:12 AM	I'd like to add too, that a place like Elfstone tavern still has a few half-elves, which to many of the more 'ethnic' elves are harder to suffer than humans. It would seem to me that Waterdeep should be one of those places where elves don't stick together as much as they do elsewhere. Gold Elves can barely even tolerate other elves. There was a fair amount of this in Evermeet by Elaine Cunningham. Gold Elves consider themselves to be superior to ANYONE, after all aren't they the very children of Correllon? While all other elves might be his children also, they are not his favored children. Gold Elves are one of the largest racial bigots out there. Yes some aren't, but in general they are. In one game had alot of fun yanking the chain of another PC, his character was a very conservative Gold Elf scion of a noble house of Evereska. While the rest of us were Moon Elves, or half-elves, and we did anything we could to rub him the wrong way. (Only reason the player even took that type of character, and we had fun at his expense, is he was a skinhead and took his ideals to the game with his elf)
chme 09-08-04, 02:30 AM	Gold Elves can barely even tolerate other elves. There was a fair amount of this in Evermeet by Elaine Cunningham. Gold Elves consider themselves to be superior to ANYONE, after all aren't they the very children of Correllon? While all other elves might be his children also, they are not his favored children. Gold Elves are one of the largest racial bigots out there. Yes some aren't, but in general they are. In one game had alot of fun yanking the chain of another PC, his character was a very conservative Gold Elf scion of a noble house of Evereska. While the rest of us were Moon Elves, or half-elves, and we did anything we could to rub him the wrong way. (Only reason the player even took that type of character, and we had fun at his expense, is he was a skinhead and took his ideals to the game with his elf) I guess we are getting away from the subject of this thread :). To get in touch with it again: I think Fluff is all that is important when you introduce or guide someone through the Realms, which is why some novels are good as guides/introductions, and why Player's Guide to Faerun disappointed me. But yes I agree, Cunningham's Evermeet novel is a great source of info on (gold) elves, as is Cormanthyr Empire of Elves that I also use. Actually, in the campaign I'm running now, the PCs work for a half-elf who is trying to escape/fight Eldreth Veluuthra. One of my players had a 'all-elves-are-super-good-notion' before we started, but he (and his half-orc PC) is more informed now :). Roleplay can be a great way to get people to see things differently, as you adopt a character's different views on all things. I play with four friends since forever though, and I could never be friends with a skinhead or other racist person.
A Chosen of Mystra 09-09-04, 02:45 PM	Listen to Kuje31, its a good thats good to have for the Players if you are going / or have a FR campaign... ;)
Alac Luin 09-09-04, 03:01 PM	I think the whole thing is Players Guide to Faerun is good for what it is. It is an updating of various rules to make them compliant with 3.5, plus afew other new rules to keep things interesting and other things that haven’t been covered. Market analysis showed that the original title Mish Mash of Rules that are Almost Considered Necessary to Play in Faerun didn’t go over well. So they chose a name that was a bit shorter. I’d hate to have to refer to a book as MMoRtaACNtPiF. PGtF is much easier..
ruleslawyer 09-10-04, 01:27 PM	I'd have considered calling it "The Revised FR Rules Compendium" and have done with. A "Player's Guide to Faerun" would ideally be something like what several posters on this thread suggested; a pure-fluff introduction to the Realms' regions, magic, races, legends, and day-to-day life structured along the lines of Chapters 3-6 of the FRCS, with some bits as to organizations, preferred regions, and a bunch of rumours and adventure hooks thrown in. Realmslore is rife with this sort of material, from types of trees to unique gemstones to songs to current clack; a volume with this stuff would happily be purchased by any and all of my players for $40. Still, I do think that PGtF, regardless of the choice of name, is pretty useful. The revised region system is less clunky; the revised spells and feats are MUCH better; and the new PrCs are better as well, with the exception of the Eye of Horus-Re and the Hammer of Moradin, which are a bit on the hefty side for my tastes. I happen to use the ELH, BoVD, BoED, and XPH, so that material is actually quite useful to me; I sympathize with those who don't want to buy the book for it, though. It's useful to me, but probably not a book I'd tout as the best thing ever.
ruleslawyer 09-10-04, 01:29 PM	Gold Elves can barely even tolerate other elves. There was a fair amount of this in Evermeet by Elaine Cunningham. Gold Elves consider themselves to be superior to ANYONE, after all aren't they the very children of Correllon? While all other elves might be his children also, they are not his favored children.Novel discussion, my friend. Novel discussion. Gold Elves are one of the largest racial bigots out there. Yes some aren't, but in general they are.It depends on which sources you use. Some sources paint a far more nuanced and sympathetic picture of the gold elves, and a very specific type of other source shows them to be arrogant elitist racial supremacists.
chme 09-10-04, 03:07 PM	Ruleslawyer, I agree with you on what PGtF should have been. Although I guess it's useful in a way to those playing 3.5, I still very much could use the fluffy kind of guide - and much more so that the crunchy one. Give us a 'PGtF Fluffy'! It depends on which sources you use. Some sources paint a far more nuanced and sympathetic picture of the gold elves, and a very specific type of other source shows them to be arrogant elitist racial supremacists. Um, what specific type would you mean? Races of Faerun, FRCS, Cormanthyr Empire of Elves and Elves of Evermeet all describe gold Elves as arrogant, haughty and superior in various degree. Elves of Evermeet has a section that tries to soften this image, but imo only strengthens the image of them as elitist - other races should be honored to get to know true elves etc. This is all in line with how they are presented in Cunninghams novel, which btw may be referred to as a source of realmslore as long as its info exist in modules. As I read warlockco in his post that you quoted, he is not saying anything that is not said in the above novel and modules. As a DM I always try to give nuanced impressions of ethnic groups and individuals, but there is also a bigger picture where in fantasy in gerenal, elves are often fair-skinned do-gooders fighting the dark-skinned evil-doers. Racist gold elves is a good opportunity to break this (racist) cliché.
ruleslawyer 09-10-04, 04:05 PM	Arrogant, yes. Racist, no. That's the role of the Eldreth Veluuthra. RoF notes that sun elves are arrogant because they feel themselves to be the true caretakers of elven lore and tradition. The FRCS describes them as "civilized and haughty," not racist. Cormanthyr: EofE ascribes racism to certain clans, such as the Starym and the elves of Aryvandaar and Vyshantaar (notably, the forerunners of the Eldreth Veluuthra and daemonfey respectively), but not the overall mass of sun elves. Besides, I don't think the racial supremacy thing is that interesting; it was done to death with the Silvanesti in Dragonlance, and it doesn't really seem as interesting to me to DM as does a more nuanced picture of haughty, reclusive, but wise elves who simply have viewpoints that are so influenced by longevity and history as to be completely alien to humans and other races.
warlockco 09-10-04, 04:59 PM	The Starym is one of the most arrogant and racist of the Gold Elf Families, they were founding members of Eldreth Veluuthra, they corrupted their Moonblade, despite the fact that the was decreed by the gods that only Moon Elves were "worthy" enough to use them. I might see a bit more into the racism issue because I have associated with racist people before (not by choice) and have been on the receiving end of racism many times.
chme 09-10-04, 05:08 PM	as interesting to me to DM as does a more nuanced picture of haughty, reclusive, but wise elves who simply have viewpoints that are so influenced by longevity and history as to be completely alien to humans and other races. If anything has been done 'to death', it would be precisely that picture imo. You might have a point if you think racism starts with genocide (as Eldreth Veluuthra want), but the more common definition of racism would include less megalomaniac views, like seeing one's own race as pure/true (RoF) whilest other races are unpure/untrue, or wanting the own race to live separately (FRCS, Cormanthyr). As for Comranthyr: EoE, in p18 it says that many (and not just the odd family) gold elves see the forests as being 'polluted' by the non-elves, which is a pretty obvious racist way of putting things. In fact, the very distinction between 'people' and 'not-people' speaks volumes.