Powerful NPC suggestion for 4E - De-stat them. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Powerful NPC suggestion for 4E - De-stat them. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eurhetemec
09-13-07, 08:12 PM I won't go into the reasons why people love or hate the NPCs in the FR, because that's a fruitless debate.

However, what I would suggest is this - Have the NPCs in the setting, but do not give them stats of any kind (including alignment, ideally).

Give a good, detailed description of every NPCs, of their behaviour, motivations, actions, experiences, and so on. Let individual Dungeon Masters decide for themselves whether Drizzt is a level 12 Ranger, or a level 29 one. Let individual DMs decide whether that ruler is LG, or LN, or maybe even LE (there are FR personalities certainly that questionable). Let the DMs decide if that "veteran warrior" who rules Xdale is a level five Fighter, or a level 19 Warlord, and so on.

To me this seems like it achieves a double-goal and achieves it well. The NPCs are retained and their MOST IMPORTANT features, their personality, motivations, history and appearance are there, but at the same time, you won't have to make up fancy excuses for why an NPC isn't involved, because you, the DM, not some writer who doesn't give two shags about FR and it's rules or balances, decides how powerful an NPC is, what their alignment is, and so on.

Giving choices to DMs is never a bad thing, I would suggest. You could go deeper, too, as with the old Shadowrun books, and offer multiple choices and suggestions on organisations, and what the "real story" behind them right now is, and so on.

Power to the DMs!

PS - For the slightly wooly-headed - yes we can already change things, but why encourage stupidity and complaining, and more importantly, why waste valuable bookspace on pointless and stupid stat-blocks that you could make up to suit you better, when the same space could describe the NPC better, and give them more plot hooks?
The Simbul
09-14-07, 11:50 AM The NPCs should have standard stat blocks. If the DM feels that they are too powerful, or too weak, or too different from their vision of them, then they can easily add, remove, or revise class levels, character choices, etc.

The Forgotten Realms is an inherently epic level campaign setting, and 4E makes epic levels an intrinsic (as opposed to optional) aspect of the game. The argument that such-and-such character should not have a stat block because the PCs would never encounter them, or never defeat them, or never hope to act against them is unacceptable in my opinion, under both editions of the game.

If someone is going to write an adventure for DDI that involved the overthrow of a prominent NPC warlord, the assassination of a powerful NPC archmage, or tracking down and slaying a NPC hero/vigilante ranger, then they are going to need a standard baseline of statistics to use in their adventure...regardless of whether the PCs are there to aid the personage, or to destroy them. Without a standard acceptable baseline you will have so much variation that it would be impossible to consistency between Living Campaigins, D&DI fan-created adventure modules, Dungeon adventures, and other forms of content. I do not want to see one adventure where Elminster is an Expert 3/Adept 7, and another where he is a divine rank 4 paragon human (Chosen of Mystra) wizard 50/sorcerer 40/fighter 10/rogue 20/cleric 30.

Moreover, I was under the impression that 4E will simplify the aspects of creating a character rather than complicate them. If this involved feats and skills being removed or otherwise made more accessible or interchangeable (i.e. oops you dont have ranks in that skill, access to that feat, thus you cannot do this/that/etc), then I think that would eliminate many of the problems with certain NPCs (at least the problems that I have with them). Likewise, if 4E decides to focus on your character rather than your equipment as the deciding factor of your success in an adventure, then many of the other issues with NPCs being too powerful, too weak, or too tempting to pass up killing/looting will be resolved.

What we need in terms of 4E stat blocks is for authors to do their research and talk to each other, and that includes the person who is writing a stat block actually reading the biographical text that accompanies it several lines below.

Of course this entire discussion assumes that they will actually retain the powerful NPCs that the fanbase has spent two decades getting to know and love, as opposed to contriving artificial death scenarios for them all so as to appeal to lowest common denominator of non-FR gamers....whom in all likelihood still would not care enough about the setting to actually spend monetary funds, time, and effort getting to know it.
The Ubbergeek
09-14-07, 12:25 PM I disagree a bit;

There should be two model.

Simply so, if you are to fight face to face someone or soemthing, detailed stats.

Otherwise, like in campaign settings in the most aprt, for NPC, very light and simple stats like the old AD&D books; alignements, levels, and so.
(Psi)SeveredHead
09-14-07, 06:50 PM I don't think de-statting solves the problem. Mystra isn't statted, yet she's a problem.

The only way to undo the negative effect of uber-NPCs is to inflict laser-guided amnesia on the fans so they forget them. But that's not going to happen in real-life. Alternatively, kill off their source of power, eg kill of Mystra.
Faraer
09-14-07, 07:08 PM I like what the Old Grey Box did: basic alignment, race, sex, class and level, with an explicit explanation that such stats weren't definitive and should be changed by the DM without qualm. Dragon was foolish to begin the fetish for statting things out for purposes of rules-onanism rather than gameplay with "All about Elminster" in Dragon #110, and the FRCS designers were as foolish to perpetuate it by putting Elminster's stat block at the front of the book for no other reason than to say 'even Elminster obeys our new rules, aren't they great?'

There is no problem with high-level characters in the Realms except in the imaginations of a few people on message boards. If I had ever read about an actual campaign where there was, I might think otherwise.
Dark Wizard
09-14-07, 09:07 PM I don't think de-statting solves the problem. Mystra isn't statted, yet she's a problem.

She is statted in Faiths and Pantheons.

The only way to undo the negative effect of uber-NPCs is to inflict laser-guided amnesia on the fans so they forget them. But that's not going to happen in real-life. Alternatively, kill off their source of power, eg kill of Mystra.

Those amnesia munitions could be retcons that WotC actually sticks to and works at to try to ease the false perception of her meddling (and those of her Chosen, etc.). Problem is WotC wants to have their cake and eat it too. They realize that people don't like Elminster but can't bring themselves to removing him from the setting. So instead they will kill all other Realms NPCs and much of the geo-political dynamic. Hopefully by then Elminster wouldn't be a problem. :rolleyes:
MarkusTay63
09-14-07, 09:16 PM Once the Spellplague hits, all forms of casting using the Weave will no longer exist.

They don't need to kill off Elminster, they effectively left him a VERY old lev 1 NPC.

Personally, I liked the system I saw elsewhere (I think it was Eberron, truth be told), where we were presented with three different sets of stats for each NPC. So depending at which point in your campaign he is introduced to your PCs, you can adjust the challenge level accordingly. Also, its a great way to progress recurring villains.

I think the NPCs are going to use a 'dumbed down' version of stats from now on anyway, at least thats what I've heard. They won't get full write-ups like 3e, but rather brief descriptions with only the stats that matter to the encounter listed.
Dark Wizard
09-14-07, 09:30 PM Once the Spellplague hits, all forms of casting using the Weave will no longer exist.

They don't need to kill off Elminster, they effectively left him a VERY old lev 1 NPC.

Then that's just cruel. It's like watching a senile old man crap himself and finding it funny. It's almost like they left him there so people who hate him can beat him up with sticks and stones. Yeah, a lot of people would like that wouldn't they.

Personally, I liked the system I saw elsewhere (I think it was Eberron, truth be told), where we were presented with three different sets of stats for each NPC. So depending at which point in your campaign he is introduced to your PCs, you can adjust the challenge level accordingly. Also, its a great way to progress recurring villains.

Again, I get the feeling WotC has given up on even trying with FR.

I think the NPCs are going to use a 'dumbed down' version of stats from now on anyway, at least thats what I've heard. They won't get full write-ups like 3e, but rather brief descriptions with only the stats that matter to the encounter listed.

You mean like how they should have been in the first place in 3e? That's shocking.
MarkusTay63
09-14-07, 09:40 PM Well, it does semm like they have been listening to us on a few things, anyway.

No more 'Munchkinism', un-do the ToT (Cyric and Mystara getting the axe), dump the Chosen...

I guess this is a classic case of "Be careful what you wish for"

I think I'm the most upset about Thay, to be honest. I was looking forward to a powerful evil mercantile empire under the auspices of Szass tam, but according to the Orc King prologue they get hit pretty hard.

But I guess thats becaus I'm using the Red Wizards as the main antagonists in my current campaign.

I think that in general 'fluffy' regional books should have little to no stating, and then have 'heavy stating' done in online web-enhancments (Insider) OR in modules/adventures where they belong.

By keeping all the 'crunchy bits' out of the sourcebooks, we can get more of what we really want - lore.
Dark Wizard
09-14-07, 09:47 PM I didn't ask for some of those, most certainly not in the way they dictated to us. I wanted fewer stats sure. Ones to get stats should be within limits. Then a gradual fading of the most promient NPCs into the far background (they were doing that for a time, but with the wrong NPCs!). Not outright death to one and all. Other NPCs should have taken a turn towards the gray.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eurhetemec 09-13-07, 08:12 PM	I won't go into the reasons why people love or hate the NPCs in the FR, because that's a fruitless debate. However, what I would suggest is this - Have the NPCs in the setting, but do not give them stats of any kind (including alignment, ideally). Give a good, detailed description of every NPCs, of their behaviour, motivations, actions, experiences, and so on. Let individual Dungeon Masters decide for themselves whether Drizzt is a level 12 Ranger, or a level 29 one. Let individual DMs decide whether that ruler is LG, or LN, or maybe even LE (there are FR personalities certainly that questionable). Let the DMs decide if that "veteran warrior" who rules Xdale is a level five Fighter, or a level 19 Warlord, and so on. To me this seems like it achieves a double-goal and achieves it well. The NPCs are retained and their MOST IMPORTANT features, their personality, motivations, history and appearance are there, but at the same time, you won't have to make up fancy excuses for why an NPC isn't involved, because you, the DM, not some writer who doesn't give two shags about FR and it's rules or balances, decides how powerful an NPC is, what their alignment is, and so on. Giving choices to DMs is never a bad thing, I would suggest. You could go deeper, too, as with the old Shadowrun books, and offer multiple choices and suggestions on organisations, and what the "real story" behind them right now is, and so on. Power to the DMs! PS - For the slightly wooly-headed - yes we can already change things, but why encourage stupidity and complaining, and more importantly, why waste valuable bookspace on pointless and stupid stat-blocks that you could make up to suit you better, when the same space could describe the NPC better, and give them more plot hooks?
The Simbul 09-14-07, 11:50 AM	The NPCs should have standard stat blocks. If the DM feels that they are too powerful, or too weak, or too different from their vision of them, then they can easily add, remove, or revise class levels, character choices, etc. The Forgotten Realms is an inherently epic level campaign setting, and 4E makes epic levels an intrinsic (as opposed to optional) aspect of the game. The argument that such-and-such character should not have a stat block because the PCs would never encounter them, or never defeat them, or never hope to act against them is unacceptable in my opinion, under both editions of the game. If someone is going to write an adventure for DDI that involved the overthrow of a prominent NPC warlord, the assassination of a powerful NPC archmage, or tracking down and slaying a NPC hero/vigilante ranger, then they are going to need a standard baseline of statistics to use in their adventure...regardless of whether the PCs are there to aid the personage, or to destroy them. Without a standard acceptable baseline you will have so much variation that it would be impossible to consistency between Living Campaigins, D&DI fan-created adventure modules, Dungeon adventures, and other forms of content. I do not want to see one adventure where Elminster is an Expert 3/Adept 7, and another where he is a divine rank 4 paragon human (Chosen of Mystra) wizard 50/sorcerer 40/fighter 10/rogue 20/cleric 30. Moreover, I was under the impression that 4E will simplify the aspects of creating a character rather than complicate them. If this involved feats and skills being removed or otherwise made more accessible or interchangeable (i.e. oops you dont have ranks in that skill, access to that feat, thus you cannot do this/that/etc), then I think that would eliminate many of the problems with certain NPCs (at least the problems that I have with them). Likewise, if 4E decides to focus on your character rather than your equipment as the deciding factor of your success in an adventure, then many of the other issues with NPCs being too powerful, too weak, or too tempting to pass up killing/looting will be resolved. What we need in terms of 4E stat blocks is for authors to do their research and talk to each other, and that includes the person who is writing a stat block actually reading the biographical text that accompanies it several lines below. Of course this entire discussion assumes that they will actually retain the powerful NPCs that the fanbase has spent two decades getting to know and love, as opposed to contriving artificial death scenarios for them all so as to appeal to lowest common denominator of non-FR gamers....whom in all likelihood still would not care enough about the setting to actually spend monetary funds, time, and effort getting to know it.
The Ubbergeek 09-14-07, 12:25 PM	I disagree a bit; There should be two model. Simply so, if you are to fight face to face someone or soemthing, detailed stats. Otherwise, like in campaign settings in the most aprt, for NPC, very light and simple stats like the old AD&D books; alignements, levels, and so.
(Psi)SeveredHead 09-14-07, 06:50 PM	I don't think de-statting solves the problem. Mystra isn't statted, yet she's a problem. The only way to undo the negative effect of uber-NPCs is to inflict laser-guided amnesia on the fans so they forget them. But that's not going to happen in real-life. Alternatively, kill off their source of power, eg kill of Mystra.
Faraer 09-14-07, 07:08 PM	I like what the Old Grey Box did: basic alignment, race, sex, class and level, with an explicit explanation that such stats weren't definitive and should be changed by the DM without qualm. Dragon was foolish to begin the fetish for statting things out for purposes of rules-onanism rather than gameplay with "All about Elminster" in Dragon #110, and the FRCS designers were as foolish to perpetuate it by putting Elminster's stat block at the front of the book for no other reason than to say 'even Elminster obeys our new rules, aren't they great?' There is no problem with high-level characters in the Realms except in the imaginations of a few people on message boards. If I had ever read about an actual campaign where there was, I might think otherwise.
Dark Wizard 09-14-07, 09:07 PM	I don't think de-statting solves the problem. Mystra isn't statted, yet she's a problem. She is statted in Faiths and Pantheons. The only way to undo the negative effect of uber-NPCs is to inflict laser-guided amnesia on the fans so they forget them. But that's not going to happen in real-life. Alternatively, kill off their source of power, eg kill of Mystra. Those amnesia munitions could be retcons that WotC actually sticks to and works at to try to ease the false perception of her meddling (and those of her Chosen, etc.). Problem is WotC wants to have their cake and eat it too. They realize that people don't like Elminster but can't bring themselves to removing him from the setting. So instead they will kill all other Realms NPCs and much of the geo-political dynamic. Hopefully by then Elminster wouldn't be a problem. :rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 09-14-07, 09:16 PM	Once the Spellplague hits, all forms of casting using the Weave will no longer exist. They don't need to kill off Elminster, they effectively left him a VERY old lev 1 NPC. Personally, I liked the system I saw elsewhere (I think it was Eberron, truth be told), where we were presented with three different sets of stats for each NPC. So depending at which point in your campaign he is introduced to your PCs, you can adjust the challenge level accordingly. Also, its a great way to progress recurring villains. I think the NPCs are going to use a 'dumbed down' version of stats from now on anyway, at least thats what I've heard. They won't get full write-ups like 3e, but rather brief descriptions with only the stats that matter to the encounter listed.
Dark Wizard 09-14-07, 09:30 PM	Once the Spellplague hits, all forms of casting using the Weave will no longer exist. They don't need to kill off Elminster, they effectively left him a VERY old lev 1 NPC. Then that's just cruel. It's like watching a senile old man crap himself and finding it funny. It's almost like they left him there so people who hate him can beat him up with sticks and stones. Yeah, a lot of people would like that wouldn't they. Personally, I liked the system I saw elsewhere (I think it was Eberron, truth be told), where we were presented with three different sets of stats for each NPC. So depending at which point in your campaign he is introduced to your PCs, you can adjust the challenge level accordingly. Also, its a great way to progress recurring villains. Again, I get the feeling WotC has given up on even trying with FR. I think the NPCs are going to use a 'dumbed down' version of stats from now on anyway, at least thats what I've heard. They won't get full write-ups like 3e, but rather brief descriptions with only the stats that matter to the encounter listed. You mean like how they should have been in the first place in 3e? That's shocking.
MarkusTay63 09-14-07, 09:40 PM	Well, it does semm like they have been listening to us on a few things, anyway. No more 'Munchkinism', un-do the ToT (Cyric and Mystara getting the axe), dump the Chosen... I guess this is a classic case of "Be careful what you wish for" I think I'm the most upset about Thay, to be honest. I was looking forward to a powerful evil mercantile empire under the auspices of Szass tam, but according to the Orc King prologue they get hit pretty hard. But I guess thats becaus I'm using the Red Wizards as the main antagonists in my current campaign. I think that in general 'fluffy' regional books should have little to no stating, and then have 'heavy stating' done in online web-enhancments (Insider) OR in modules/adventures where they belong. By keeping all the 'crunchy bits' out of the sourcebooks, we can get more of what we really want - lore.
Dark Wizard 09-14-07, 09:47 PM	I didn't ask for some of those, most certainly not in the way they dictated to us. I wanted fewer stats sure. Ones to get stats should be within limits. Then a gradual fading of the most promient NPCs into the far background (they were doing that for a time, but with the wrong NPCs!). Not outright death to one and all. Other NPCs should have taken a turn towards the gray.