Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marrimar Most Magnificent 12-22-03, 05:49 AM	Heya all, Starting a FR campaign soon, already have a good hand of experience in DMing and my group consists of farely experienced players. My campaign in evolving around Silver Marches and have a question for those more familiar with DMing FR: To DM a FR campaign, is it really necessary to read and "memorize" all source books from bottom to top? (Magic of Faerun, Lords Of Darkness, Faiths and Panteons, etc) I already have my site locations for the campaign fleshed out with stuff from the campaign setting and the silver marches books, and I have read a great deal in these books about FG. What I did is get some random stuff from the other source books but everytime I lok through them I find new stuff and I'm like asking myself "Do I really know enough to really start this?" Thanx for any help you can give me!
Lashan 12-22-03, 09:48 AM	No, not really. Unless you have some rabid novel fan who will really really complain if things aren't exactly like they are in the novels. If you do, then I am terribly sorry. If you don't, then feel free to change what you want, use what you want, and add in what you want. I think there is even a paragraph in FRCS (or somewhere) that talks with how it's ok to just change the FR to fit your style.
Wooly Rupert 12-22-03, 09:48 AM	I'd make sure I knew the major details of things, but other than that, only focus on things that are likely to come up in your campaign. For example, I'd make sure I knew that Shade was back, and that Anauroch looked different. But I wouldn't bother knowing Telamont's feats unless the PCs were actually going to meet him.
Cunning Linguist 12-22-03, 10:01 AM	To DM a FR campaign, is it really necessary to read and "memorize" all source books from bottom to top? (Magic of Faerun, Lords Of Darkness, Faiths and Panteons, etc) no, but they really give the world a flavor like none other.
Crust 12-22-03, 11:24 AM	The flavor of the Realms comes alive in the novels, not in the sourcebooks. I didn't start DMing FR until I read over 20 of the novels just so I could get a feel for that flavor. The sourcebooks tell you "what" happens in the Realms, what folks do, what folks say, what the powers are, and what the customs are, but only the novels show us "how" those things take place and exist in the shared world that is FR. Of course, you don't need the novels, but they can only help.
Lashan 12-22-03, 03:34 PM	Once again, I disagree with the above statement. You don't have to read a single novel to get the feel for FR. I DMed for years before I ever read a single novel.
Marrimar Most Magnificent 12-22-03, 04:03 PM	Thanx for the replies. Read some novels already like the Shandril Saga and Elminster in Hell (which both give very good impressions of the realms), but will take the stuff I need from the source books and read more stuff if it seems necessary for the future of my campaign. Wanted to start out with the Bandit Portals from the site and use them to a establish a Zhent Lair there with a nice Warlord that tries to take hold over the area around the High forest by robing merchants and selling there goods againts higher prices, hiring orc for raids on the small villages near the South side of the Nether Mountains and take hold of the trade barge along the Rauvin river... Maybe overtake some local mines too :-) Anyone have some kewl suggestions to make this Zhent Lair raid gang more alive? Thanx!
Drow Will Rule The World 12-22-03, 04:27 PM	I have been part of two FR games recently, one as DM and one as player. I am a huge FR novel fan and also own almost every FR sourcebook (from all three and a half editions of D&D), but the other DM only has the 3E and 3.5E sourcebooks. From experiencing these two games, I really don't think that reading the novels, or memorizing source books, is necessary to DM in the Realms. If anything the only difference is the other DM is a little hesitant to bring major characters of the Realms (like Elminster or Alustriel) into play, while I have no problem doing that if it fits the story. That may be for a multitude of reasons though (and I haven't discussed this with the other DM). Originally posted by Marrimar Most Magnificent Anyone have some kewl suggestions to make this Zhent Lair raid gang more alive? I am going to throw out two ideas (that I am also using in my own game in the Silver Marches). First, the heroes combatting the Zhents could get drawn into an internal struggle over control of the Zhents between Cyric's and Bane's followers. Zhents out of Darkhold are more likely to be Cyricists, while the Zhents out of the Zhentil Keep region are Banites. The Zhent lair could be a battleground between the two. Second, the Zhents are most likely going to end up in conflict with the city of Shade because they traditionally used to move trade goods through the Anauroch, until the City of Shade returned and plunked themselves into the middle of the desert. This could be a good reason to bring agents from the City of Shade into play in your campaign. I make this partially because it gives a very easy way to incorporate Shadow Magic (something the characters may have a difficult time dealing with) and because the followers of Shar are just cool!
Cunning Linguist 12-22-03, 04:55 PM	Anyone have some kewl suggestions to make this Zhent Lair raid gang more alive? If you can get a hold of Lords of Darkness, I would put in a Zhentarim Skymage riding a manticore or black pegasus. Perhaps let them find some Baneswords, and Skull Blades, see what they make of those. Introduce some drugtrade going into and out of the Zhent camp, show them that these guys are really evil, not just some ragtag bandits.
Crust 12-22-03, 05:23 PM	Originally posted by Lashan Once again, I disagree with the above statement. You don't have to read a single novel to get the feel for FR. I DMed for years before I ever read a single novel. At the time, I'm sure you didn't know what you and your players were missing. Someone who looks at the sourcebooks can certainly get a feel for FR, but that overarching, living, breathing experience that is the Realms can only be experienced first hand through the novels. The sourcebooks "tell" players and DMs what FR is all about. The novels "show."
Lashan 12-22-03, 05:58 PM	Actually, since I am an exprienced DM who has played many settings and played for years in FR without reading the novels, I have to say that I feel the novels actually hinder people playing FR. Anyone with an imagination can "see" what the Realms is like without needing a novel to tell them. Once again, though, we are discussing the same thing we always debate in other people's threads. I see little point in continuing. Marrimar, I would also like to suggest using other villians that aren't in any sourcebook. The sourcebooks are great and using those organizations are a good tool, as well, but they aren't the only evil groups out there. Feel free to make up any good or evil power group in your game and use them, even if they aren't in a source book. If you really want to add in the Zhentarium, you can have these other organizations secretly being controlled by the zhentarium, thereby increasing the mystique and real "secret society" of the zhentarium. The Wicked Blades mercenary company might be behind the local troubles. People who investigate them might find out all about their darkened past, but they might not find out that they are secretly being controlled by the zhentarium!
Cunning Linguist 12-22-03, 07:37 PM	Someone who looks at the sourcebooks can certainly get a feel for FR, but that overarching, living, breathing experience that is the Realms can only be experienced first hand through the novels. The sourcebooks "tell" players and DMs what FR is all about. The novels "show." When I first started, I got the Making of a Mage, and the Avatar Triology, and the 2.ed FRCS. I was going to read the books, get the feal, then start reading the rulebooks, then start playing. Well, I read the books, I hated them. I put of reading the FRCS since the books lacked so much. But after a few weeks I started reading the FRCS, and wow.. I loved it. Since then I have read some more FR novels, but they are never any good.
Marrimar Most Magnificent 12-23-03, 03:33 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist If you can get a hold of Lords of Darkness, I would put in a Zhentarim Skymage riding a manticore or black pegasus. Perhaps let them find some Baneswords, and Skull Blades, see what they make of those. Introduce some drugtrade going into and out of the Zhent camp, show them that these guys are really evil, not just some ragtag bandits. Good ideas! Will certainly introduce the drugtrade into the adventures and let it flow as a slow virus into the harts of some minor settlements and maybe even hit Sundabar with it. Originally posted by Lashan Marrimar, I would also like to suggest using other villians that aren't in any sourcebook. The sourcebooks are great and using those organizations are a good tool, as well, but they aren't the only evil groups out there. Feel free to make up any good or evil power group in your game and use them, even if they aren't in a source book. If you really want to add in the Zhentarium, you can have these other organizations secretly being controlled by the zhentarium, thereby increasing the mystique and real "secret society" of the zhentarium. The Wicked Blades mercenary company might be behind the local troubles. People who investigate them might find out all about their darkened past, but they might not find out that they are secretly being controlled by the zhentarium! Lords of Darkness gave me a very good impression about how the Zhentarim are organised and I like your suggestion of using a seemly unimportant group under the control of the Zhents to wreack havoc among the countrysides :-)
KismetRose 12-23-03, 05:43 AM	You do not need to read and memorize all source books for a FR game or for any other game. Read what you like and see what sticks, but don't force yourself to trudge through details you may or may not need. Chances are, you'll absorb what will work. For my campaign, which is also in around the Marches, I have read what I needed to. I'll go read city and country entries before I use them. I have used Faiths and Pantheons a lot, but that happens when you run for two paladins and a cleric. And the book happens to be a good read for me. But I'm a college student and I read hundreds upon hundreds of pages every quarter - I don't have the time to memorize gaming books to. I have found that it isn't necessary to run a very satisfying game. I haven't found any of the novels to my taste, so I haven't read any of them, but my players experience the Realms very vividly because of my vision and my ability to get things across. If you engage your imagination, you can capture the nuances of a place, or people, or an event. If you use your storytelling abilities, you can show what you imagine to your players, better than any book. I know that I've felt intimidated by not knowing enough rules. It's driven me nigh to distraction before, but my boyfriend (also a DM) always reminds me that it's not the rules that matter half as much as the story. No amount of memorized information will make up for the magic of a story. If you need to look something up, it's not the end of the world. It's not a sin to wing it. It would be a shame for you to feel needlessly intimidated or worried about it - and an even worse shame if you let it stop you. It doesn't seem like you will. Oh, and one more thing: sometimes, you'll come up with things on your own that you'll find evidence for in the books later on. I cannot tell you how many times that's happened to me. I would come up with an idea, run with it, and read something utterly related in the books later (something that I had not read before). If you have the essence, the details will follow.
Crust 12-23-03, 09:52 AM	Originally posted by Lashan Anyone with an imagination can "see" what the Realms is like without needing a novel to tell them. Ah-ah-ah! The novels "show," they don't "tell," just like a DM "shows" his/her players the campaign. The same way the novels show the campaign, so does the DM. The two can, when used properly, work hand-in-hand to give players a wider view of the world they're gaming in. They realize that the world is much bigger than their DM is showing them, and the lore is there. Originally posted by Cunning LunguistWhen I first started, I got the Making of a Mage, and the Avatar Triology, and the 2.ed FRCS. I was going to read the books, get the feal, then start reading the rulebooks, then start playing. Well, I read the books, I hated them. I put of reading the FRCS since the books lacked so much. But after a few weeks I started reading the FRCS, and wow.. I loved it. Since then I have read some more FR novels, but they are never any good. That's unfortunate. You started your FR novel experience with one of the worst trilogies in its library, and a novel that takes place about one thousand years before the FRCS material is dated. However bad your experience might have been, you can't possibly understand who Elminster is without reading his biography novels, and you can't possibly understand what really happened during the Time of Troubles without having read the Avatar Trilogy. Your players might ask, "What's the Time of Troubles?" The FRCS response might be, "Well, Ao cast all the gods down because Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate. Mystra was killed and wild magic erupted all over Faerun. Eventually, everything went back to a semblance of normality." The Avatar Trilogy response might be, "Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, and Ao cast down all the gods, making them into vulnerable avatars who could all be slain. In a climactic scene involving the gods, Helm (who was the only God Ao trusted, and who was allowed to keep his godly power) slew Mystra with one mighty blow, creating wild surges in all spellcasting across Faerun. Kelemvor (at the time a were panther - isn't that odd?), Cyric (yes, they are the gods we know and love), Adon and Midnight (the future Mystra - don't ask, just read) band together to help save Faerun. Elminster goes missing (you can read all about that in the Shadows of the Avatar Trilogy), the heroes are blamed, and Storm Silverhand (you remember her from Spellfire) had a hand in the proceedings. During an epic battle between Torm and Bane, Torm slew Bane, causing an explosion similar to a nuclear blast." Your players might ask, "Who's this Elminster in the front of the FRCS?" The FRCS answer might be, "He's a very powerful wizard with lots of magical items. It says he's the most powerful wizard on Faerun." Big deal! The Making of a Mage/Elminster in Myth Drannor/Temptation of Elminster/Shadows of the Avatar Trilogy/Elminster in Hell/etc. etc. answer might be, "His full name is Elminster Aumar, originally of Athlanatar. He's actually a prince, if you can believe that. He is well over one thousand years old (he was born around 200 DR - and we are now gaming in the year 1373 DR!). He raised the Seven Sisters, his former apprentices include Vangerdahast of Cormyr, and he is the former lover of Mystra's previous aspect, if you can believe that! He helped lay the Mythal of Myth Drannor during the height of its power, and he helped defend its walls during its fall. He once walked as a woman due to one of the many trials of Mystra, was once a cleric of her faith, and rose in power to destroy the very magelords who slew his family and destroyed his boyhood village. He recently found himself trapped in Hell of all places, and his comrades (The Simbul, a reformed Halastar, and even Mystra's avatar!) came to his aid. In fact, I have the novel here. Let me read a scene involving The Simbul, a trio of pit fiends, and a pair of mages, a beholder, and a massive red dragon, each of which she summons using an epic spell called 'The Blood Ring'..." See what I mean? I'm guessing not, but, that's the endless frustration I deal with on these boards. The FRCS is the cliff notes of the novels. You can certainly "get by" with it, but it just ain't enough to do the Realms, and the players, justice. The folks who understand what I'm saying understand the importance of the novels. The folks who don't understand just don't understand. Oh, and Merry Christmas, everyone. :)
Mystery Man 12-23-03, 10:50 AM	I've read like 4 FR novels in all the years I've been playing (many). So far I've gotten along pretty well without them, don't need them, don't really have a use for them in running my game, and would strongly take issue with someone telling me my Realms were wrong because some novel said so. Like this statement.... The FRCS is the cliff notes of the novels. You can certainly "get by" with it, but it just ain't enough to do the Realms, and the players, justice. The folks who understand what I'm saying understand the importance of the novels. The folks who don't understand just don't understand. ...which is pure bunk without an IMHO following it in bold red lettering. :D :smirk:
Mystery Man 12-23-03, 10:57 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist When I first started, I got the Making of a Mage, and the Avatar Triology, and the 2.ed FRCS. I was going to read the books, get the feal, then start reading the rulebooks, then start playing. Well, I read the books, I hated them. I put of reading the FRCS since the books lacked so much. But after a few weeks I started reading the FRCS, and wow.. I loved it. Since then I have read some more FR novels, but they are never any good. The new FRCS and 3E actually brought me back into DnD from a long hiatus. I would disagree that all FR novels are bad, and would say (contrary to popular opinion it would seem) that Ed Greenwoods novels are the best. Keep in mind that I have a very limited source to pull from so its all strictly IMHO, but for some reason his writing grabs me and pulls me in. It captures the flavor of the Realms like no other to me, simply because I like his style, and for gosh's sake he wrote the dang setting. :tiphat:
Crust 12-23-03, 11:31 AM	Originally posted by Mystery Man I've read like 4 FR novels in all the years I've been playing (many). So far I've gotten along pretty well without them, don't need them, don't really have a use for them in running my game, and would strongly take issue with someone telling me my Realms were wrong because some novel said so. Well, this is a problem. Please don't assume that I'm telling anyone that their game is wrong because they don't use the novels. But I must say, by drawing that assumption from my post, does that mean that there's something missing from your game? I mean, "pretty well" might get bumped up a notch by reading more than four novels. ;) ...which is pure bunk without an IMHO following it in bold red lettering. :D :smirk: Well, of course the FRCS isn't the exact definition of a cliff notes for the novels. Of course the novels don't go into detail concening spells, magical items, etc. But, the fluff of the FRCS is without doubt an abridged version of what can be learned in the novels. That much exists outside the realm of the bolded "IMHO."
Lashan 12-23-03, 11:32 AM	Once again we disagree and I see you want to get into the same conversation again. I think it is complete malarky that you can't truly understand the FR unless you read the novels. I am sorry, but I was understanding the FR fine before I read any novel. I've read about 10 now, regretted the experience, and don't feel that they have shed any light on the FR at all for me. In fact, it has soured me to some things about the game. You can have your opinion about how the novels add flavor to the game, but don't treat it as the only "correct" way to play in the FR. Obviously from the posts in this thread alone, people disagree with you.
Crust 12-23-03, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by Lashan Once again we disagree and I see you want to get into the same conversation again. I think it is complete malarky that you can't truly understand the FR unless you read the novels. That's something I agree with completely. I never once said, nor implied, that the novels are required to understand the Realms. I am sorry, but I was understanding the FR fine before I read any novel. I've read about 10 now, regretted the experience, and don't feel that they have shed any light on the FR at all for me. In fact, it has soured me to some things about the game. Like what? You can have your opinion about how the novels add flavor to the game, but don't treat it as the only "correct" way to play in the FR. It's the only correct way for me. I'm not chastising anyone for not using the novels. I've only said that using them correctly can add to the game, and I've learned that through experience. Obviously from the posts in this thread alone, people disagree with you. Disagreement is the only thing that is done universally well on these boards. However, in this case, I see it as misunderstanding.
Mystery Man 12-23-03, 12:15 PM	Originally posted by Crust However, in this case, I see it as misunderstanding. LOL! I use that line on my wife when I'm wrong and I know it. :D So I'll take that comment as toungue in cheek. Its like this, if your games are better off pulling material from the novels more power to you. The disagreement lies with the assumption that everyone must use them or their game suffers. Quite the contrary I would think, and I would like to give the majority of the Realms DM's better credit than having to lean on the novels all the time. Bah, freedom comes with closing them and putting them down. When I say "pretty well" I mean that I'm familiar up to about 90% of the material from the Sword Coast to western edge of Cormyr and less the further east you go because for years that area of the Realms was my schtick. Peronally I like the freedom of not being shackled to the novels, but there is merit in them for capturing flavor and ideas.
Drow Will Rule The World 12-23-03, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Mystery Man Peronally I like the freedom of not being shackled to the novels, but there is merit in them for capturing flavor and ideas. While I am somewhat loathe to get into the middle of this, I think you guys are saying exactly the same thing as Crust. Crust's whole point is that the novels help add flavour to the 'Realms', and help fill background that the campaign settings don't provide (which includes many ideas for possible campaign twists). I agree with that completely. I also believe that to play the 'iconic' characters, like Simbul/Elminster/Drizzt/etc., it really helps to read the novels first to get a sense of their character. Then again most DMs I know don't use those iconic characters. So all told, the novels can be a really useful tool, but of course you can play in the Realms without them!
Wooly Rupert 12-23-03, 01:04 PM	Some of the books are quite good. Some of them drew much vacuum. I read the books more for entertainment than anything else. Sometimes I get ideas from the novels, sometimes I don't. I've read most, but not all, of the novels -- some of the more recent ones have simply failed to grab my attention. I don't read them as a game resource, though the majority of the novels are canon. However, things from the novels can become a game resource, if you desire. Maybe a description of a particular character or place can come in handy... Maybe you could take this plot thread and use it to create an adventure... You could do that from any fantasy novel, not just ones set in the Realms. Now, as for the flavor... There's enough material out there that someone could, conceivably, get a pretty good grasp on the flavor of the Realms without reading them. I do think, however, that reading some of the novels adds a nice bit of flavor. It's not necessary, but it does add to it -- like whipped cream on a piece of pie. For example, if you want to play a priest of Kelemvor, then you have all the resources in the source books to do it. But you get a better feel for him, for who Kelemvor was, if you read the novels that featured him. You don't have to, but doing so can add to the experience.
Israfel666 12-25-03, 06:06 PM	I think the novels are a good aid to help you choose what kind of flavor you want to give your FR campaign. You want to run an adventuring, combat-heavy game? Read Drizzt novels. You want to run a typical D&D dungeon crawl artifact hunt? Read Harper books You want to run an epic, world-spanning campaign? Read the Avatar books or the Elminster novels. You want to run a city-based tale of intrigue and plots within plots? Read some Sembia or Waterdeep book. And most importantly, if you are going to play in some unusual setting, reading the related novels will definitely help. It's hard to run a believable, memorable campaign in Menzoberranzan or Ched Nasad for drow PCs if you have never read a drow novel, or one in pre-fall Netheril if you never read the Netherese Trilogy.
Freakboy 12-26-03, 02:56 AM	I've read close to thirty Forgotten Realms Novels. I think that they add a huge amount of richness to my FR campaigns. However, I don't think they are strictly necessary to DM or even play in the FR. That being said, I think you are missing out on some great writing if you don't read FR novels. Elaine Cunninghams books are all good, especially the Starlight and Shadows Trilogy. All the books in the War of the Spider Queen Series have been phenominal. Many would say the Drizzt books are must reads and I would agree. Perhaps you don't enjoy reading fantasy fiction and that is fine, but the Realms have some really great writing done about them and you are really missing out if you don't take the opportunity to read some of the fantastic stuff out there.
Crust 12-26-03, 02:52 PM	Originally posted by Drow Will Rule The World Crust's whole point is that the novels help add flavour to the 'Realms', and help fill background that the campaign settings don't provide (which includes many ideas for possible campaign twists). I agree with that completely. I also believe that to play the 'iconic' characters, like Simbul/Elminster/Drizzt/etc., it really helps to read the novels first to get a sense of their character. Then again most DMs I know don't use those iconic characters. So all told, the novels can be a really useful tool, but of course you can play in the Realms without them! That's precisely what I mean. Thanks, Drow. Take a look at my above post concerning an FRCS explanation and a novel explanation. That sums things up. And I meant "misunderstanding" quite seriously. Hopefully Drow's post (and many other's who seem to see where I'm coming from) helps a bit.
Faraer 12-26-03, 03:47 PM	The key thing is to grok the overall feel, how things fit together, and have the main sources for the region you're playing in, so that you're confident. Almost no one can hope to have all relevant information and nuances to hand or mind. Realmslore is Realmslore, whatever medium it's published in. Some of the lore in the novels is the kind of stuff that ought to be (also) in the sourcebooks: how people talk, their attitude, what they do, books, poisons... the many subjects condensed into the FRCS's "Life in Faerūn" chapter. Ed put lots of merchant lore in Hand of Fire because that was where the opportunity came to get that knowledge out, for instance.