Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ssvegeta555 07-15-04, 12:55 PM	As most of us know psionics doesn't draw from the weave like magic does. I've heard not too many people are happy with this (at least from what I've read from posts). Well I'm the opposite,I think it makes sense since psionics come from the mind and not some external force in which you must tap into in order to gain it, and use it. Though I dont have PGtF yet, so I might be missing out on some important info. Anywho, What are your opinions on the matter?
Cunning Linguist 07-15-04, 01:02 PM	If Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Blackguards, Rangers, Paladins, Bards, Assassins, Harpers Agents and all other classes need to use the weave (or the shadow weave) to cast spells, I don't see why Psions should get of that easy. I think that psion lore in the realms should be more like... "The weave is all around us, and part of everyone.. a psions can focus his mind, so that he can direct the flow of the weave inside him" This way, it would still be the weave, and it would still be a "focus your mind" idea behind it.
Alac Luin 07-15-04, 01:14 PM	.I kind of like it as it is. We also have things like the "Initiate of Mystra" Feat. Also, in my games, a Anti Magic Field (cast by an opponent for example) is more likely to cause a big obstacle, and Psionics don’t work in an AMF.
ClobberinTime 07-15-04, 01:20 PM	I like the seperation, on rethinking it and reading the 3.5 psionics SRD, they just brought the realms in line with all the rest of D+D. Why should anti magic fields block psionics. From the beginning psionics was supposed to be something different. At least they stuck with the uniqueness of psionics in the D+D world. A psionicist is just like a sorcerer with spell points more or less, but some of the abilities are unique. In 2ed psionics was filled with great peril and great power. It made you better than the non-psionics around you, but opened you up for attack from other creatures who non-psionicists could care less about. It also took alot of house rules to make it work. It had a totally different feel, like the Katherine Kurtz, Deryni novels. I haven't worked through the 3.5 well enough to have a strong opinion yet. Running it in the FR, well just make the PCs role play how they get it- Are they taught by a gem dragon. Maybe they are a human from a magic weak psionic strong world, who was raised here. Whatever the point it should be rare, like spell fire.
Alac Luin 07-15-04, 02:04 PM	from 3.5 SRD conserning AMF The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. from within the 3.5 SRD concerning Psionics Psionics are spell-like abilities. In most cases, a spell-like ability (and manifesting a power) works just like a spell, and casting a spell works much like manifesting a power for the purposes of the restrictions that apply. Those restrictions are the same as those on casting a spell, except for one important difference: Armor does not hinder the manifestation of a power. In all other cases, manifesting a power follows the rules for casting a spell. also 3.5 srd on psionic-magic transparicy The default rule for psionics and magic is that psionic powers interact with spells and spells interact with psionic powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as transparency. Though not explicitly called out in spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, follow this rule: Spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. Spell resistance functions against powers and vice versa. All spells that negate or dispel magic are equally effective against psionic powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa. The spell detect magic detects psionic powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to determine the discipline of the psionic aura). “Dead magic” areas are also “dead psionics” areas. Enchantment Resistance: Races and classes with resistance to spells of the Enchantment school receive the same bonus to resist all psionic powers with the compulsion descriptor. Spells and Powers follow the same rules for multiple effects and bonus stacking. I am taking it that in the above description, "Dead Magic" refers to things such as that created by an AMF, as opposed to the Faerun specific Dead Magic area created by the absence of the weave.
Ryltar Swordsong 07-15-04, 05:55 PM	I use the "Psionics are different" rules. IMO, psionics and magic don't affect each other unless specifically designed to. Psionics is the power of the mind and body, while magic is a power of surrounding world.
The Simbul 07-15-04, 06:36 PM	If Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Blackguards, Rangers, Paladins, Bards, Assassins, Harpers Agents and all other classes need to use the weave (or the shadow weave) to cast spells, I don't see why Psions should get of that easy. I think that psion lore in the realms should be more like... "The weave is all around us, and part of everyone.. a psions can focus his mind, so that he can direct the flow of the weave inside him" This way, it would still be the weave, and it would still be a "focus your mind" idea behind it.Thank you. To add to that, If a Dragon's Fiery Breath, a Ghosts ability to manifest, a Pixie's NATURAL invisibility, and a sorcerer's inborn spellcasting powers are all dependent upon the Weave to manifest, then I fail to see why psionics should somehow be exempt. A Psions powers are no more "inner" or "intuitive" than a Sorcerer's, yet Forgotten Realms Sorcerers did not retain their core rules fluff desription of their magic coming from "within" in a FR game. Instead, their inuitive magic was translated into an inuitive way of manigpulating the Weave. A Dragon's Breath Weapon is likewise a natural an inherent talent, yet in Faerun all dragons still require Mystra or Shar's approval to even cough up a spark. There is no reason for Psioncs to somehow not be intepreted the same way. If Psionics was not weave dependent in any fashion, then one fails to understand why psions didnt rule the face of Toril prior to the creation of the Weave, and crush spellcasters as soon as they arose. If psionics is not weave dependent in any fashion, then one fails to understand why illithids didnt go all out during the time of troubles to enslave the underdark. The only example we have in realmslore of Psionics not being inhbited by the Weave and fully taking advantage of it is a little novel by R.A. Salvatore, and because of that and the favored treatment psionics recieved in 2E, we now have to contend with the precendent breaking notion of psionics being the only magic-esque power in faerun that doesnt come from a weave. the "Psionics are Different" issue: The Psionics are different rule is a holdover that was abused in 2nd edition to allow munckin-esque players and DM's to find a exploitable loophole to bypass the protections and defenses of core rules characters, or characters who *god forbid* didnt want to waste a non-weapon proficiency slot on "Mental Armor Class" just so they couldnt get trounched by Psionicist characters 1/3 their level. A 18th level mage under a protection from evil spell could safely assume she was immune to another character or NPC's Domination, yet if that character or NPC happened to belong to the favored-outside-the-game-rules Psionicist class, and used a psionic (and therefore "special") version fo Domination, it would bypass the protection entirely. IMO the Psionics are different rule in 3rd edition can purposely retained in 3rd editon as an option for the same reason noted above, and the apparently uncomprimising need by the fanbase and perhaps some designers to retain this exploitable game concept is probably the most influencial reason why psionics has never been fully incorporated into the 3rd edition Core rules, and perhaps never will be.
ssvegeta555 07-15-04, 06:57 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul Thank you. To add to that, If a Dragon's Fiery Breath, a Ghosts ability to manifest, a Pixie's NATURAL invisibility, and a sorcerer's inborn spellcasting powers are all dependent upon the Weave to manifest, then I fail to see why psionics should somehow be exempt. A Psions powers are no more "inner" or "intuitive" than a Sorcerer's, yet Forgotten Realms Sorcerers did not retain their core rules fluff desription of their magic coming from "within" in a FR game. Instead, their inuitive magic was translated into an inuitive way of manigpulating the Weave. A Dragon's Breath Weapon is likewise a natural an inherent talent, yet in Faerun all dragons still require Mystra or Shar's approval to even cough up a spark. There is no reason for Psioncs to somehow not be intepreted the same way. If Psionics was not weave dependent in any fashion, then one fails to understand why psions didnt rule the face of Toril prior to the creation of the Weave, and crush spellcasters as soon as they arose. If psionics is not weave dependent in any fashion, then one fails to understand why illithids didnt go all out during the time of troubles to enslave the underdark. The only example we have in realmslore of Psionics not being inhbited by the Weave and fully taking advantage of it is a little novel by R.A. Salvatore, and because of that and the favored treatment psionics recieved in 2E, we now have to contend with the precendent breaking notion of psionics being the only magic-esque power in faerun that doesnt come from a weave. [/B] I dont see how psionics not tied to the weave make them more powerful than they are. They're just the same either way IMO. About the dragon's breath weapon, and other abilites aguement, I have to disagree. Yes they do rely on the weave (though the dragon is debatable since it's internal organs is what makes it spark) but you can't exaclty compare them to the mind. The mind is a powerful part of the body, it is controlled only by the owner (unless you use some kind of spell), the weave shouldn't have control over the mind at all, and it doesn't. The mind can comrehend infinite possabilites, and those who have the talent can make those into reality. The mind is like an independant weave within the body. This is why I dont think the weave shouldn't have any control over psionics, it's from the mind not from the powers of the weave.
Alac Luin 07-15-04, 07:00 PM	Think of psionics in a similar maner as shadow weave magic....
Cunning Linguist 07-15-04, 07:12 PM	Originally posted by ssvegeta555 About the dragon's breath weapon, and other abilites aguement, I have to disagree. Yes they do rely on the weave (though the dragon is debatable since it's internal organs is what makes it spark) but you can't exaclty compare them to the mind. The mind is a powerful part of the body, it is controlled only by the owner (unless you use some kind of spell), the weave shouldn't have control over the mind at all, and it doesn't. The mind can comrehend infinite possabilites, and those who have the talent can make those into reality. The mind is like an independant weave within the body. This is why I dont think the weave shouldn't have any control over psionics, it's from the mind not from the powers of the weave. How about when a Dracolich uses his breath weapon? He does not possess the body to make such a attack, and must use his magic to produce the attack. This magic again comes forth as a sorcerer, who apperently have magic in there "blood" something a dracolich neither has. What does a Dracolich have? Well, he has his Mental powers, and thats about it.
ssvegeta555 07-15-04, 07:44 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist How about when a Dracolich uses his breath weapon? He does not possess the body to make such a attack, and must use his magic to produce the attack. This magic again comes forth as a sorcerer, who apperently have magic in there "blood" something a dracolich neither has. What does a Dracolich have? Well, he has his Mental powers, and thats about it. The dracolich has the weave to power his breath weapon. This does condradict what I was saying that it comes from the body part of the dragon, maybe thats why the weave powers it instead, since it wont be possable for the dracolich. Though you got me thinking Cunning Linguist, what happens if a psionic person becomes undead? Since psionics comes from the mind and not the weave, would he not have psionic powers since his mind is not there since it rotted away? Or would it be similer to the dragon/draco lich example, the body part does not matter it's his independant weave that powers his psionic abilities? (correct me if I'm wrong on these theroes since I dont have the book to check up on).
ssvegeta555 07-15-04, 07:54 PM	Originally posted by Alac Luin Think of psionics in a similar maner as shadow weave magic.... Dude I like your answer better than mine. Screw my theroes, this explaines it better. And makes more sense ;) .
Alac Luin 07-15-04, 07:57 PM	Thanx.:D
ClobberinTime 07-15-04, 08:14 PM	Psionics was a double edged sword in 2ed It gave many abilities but also opened one up to attack forms not allowable on other chars, and wasn't broken unless the DM allowed it to be. And honestly from 1ed which is the last time I had a psionics oriented campaign, just making that little set of rules in the back of the players handbook was a blast. Heavy sigh, ah the old days. Just looking at the SRD for a bit and the psychic warrior in particular lots of psionic abilities make as much sense outside of the weave as within. A barbarians ability to rage isn't tied to the weave so why should a psionicists ability to raise his own ability scores, Dmg and physical abilities rely on it. A psionicist could be considered to be just like a Monk only using his mind instead of body. Its a personal choice but I really miss some of the asymetry in the rules of 1ed and 2ed. The new D+D system is great don't get me wrong, but lots of times its pretty GURPs like. A psionics outside of the weave campaign in the FR would be great, the chars could be good align, the weave users would be angry, it would get over the whole oh all the good guys just get along and put some good versus good rivalry back on the map. The only thing is that it has to cut both ways. If you let psionics bypass SR then spells bypass psionic resistance. Just watch the look on Vandys face when he breaks into the psionics school recently opened up expecting demons and drow, at least a mind flayer (yes they can still be called that) etc... to find the holy holy cleric/psion mind monks of Ilmater worshiping flowers and talking about world peace. It would be pricesless.... And god forbid they should overwhelm his great and precious store of magic items against every possible threat with what, their minds.
The Simbul 07-16-04, 12:02 AM	Originally posted by ClobberinTime A psionicist could be considered to be just like a Monk only using his mind instead of body. Except for the fact that one third of a Monks abilities, all of which are magical-esque in nature, (Ki Strike, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, and the damage reduction they gain from Perfect Self) do in fact draw upon the Weave, despite being powered by "the mind".
ruleslawyer 07-16-04, 12:37 AM	Yeah. Ed has commented on this before, calling psionics "the Invisible Art" and clearly implying that it's Weave-dependent. Likewise, the FRCS designers suggest using psionics-magic transparency. In general, I don't think that the Shadow Weave is a good analogy; a better one would be arcane vs. divine magic. They have two completely separate "sources" of power, but draw upon the Weave.
Oakraven 07-16-04, 02:19 AM	ok lets Visualise the Weave as a 2 D entity under the weave you have the shadow weave in between the two weaves you have the bunting known as psionics, thus making the blanket of poweres we all know and love and existing perpendicular to all three layers are the Metaphysical traites that people like Monks and 'Zerkers use to power their abilities, and that extra oompfh we get when we do things like dead lift 3 ton tractors off of our 2 year old.
Alac Luin 07-16-04, 07:37 PM	Originally posted by ruleslawyer Yeah. Ed has commented on this before, calling psionics "the Invisible Art" and clearly implying that it's Weave-dependent. Likewise, the FRCS designers suggest using psionics-magic transparency. In general, I don't think that the Shadow Weave is a good analogy; a better one would be arcane vs. divine magic. They have two completely separate "sources" of power, but draw upon the Weave. When asked about psionics, Rich Baker said that psionics are not weave dependent, but do not function in an AMF. My shadow weave analogy was more in line with the rules used in determining it's use. If a shadow weave user does not break your game, then neither should a psion. Since the shadow weave is not weave dependent, and a psion is not weave dependent, they can function in the same places and manner. Sure, you can use the variant rule of different, and then this whole discussion becomes silly.
GothicDan 07-17-04, 01:03 AM	In regards to someone's questions about an undead psionic-using being: in 2E they had the Psionic Lich. Enough said.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 07-17-04, 04:35 AM	I suppose it just bothers me to think that 2 adventurers with equal experience will be equally powerful when ones power comes from his GOD through the weave and the other is able to simply manest power on his own.
Vedvesica 07-17-04, 05:05 AM	Except for the fact that one third of a Monks abilities, all of which are magical-esque in nature, (Ki Strike, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, and the damage reduction they gain from Perfect Self) do in fact draw upon the Weave, despite being powered by "the mind". Just like how Deities are all above 20th level and yet have no epic feats. The reason Monk abilities are considered magical and not psionic is because of WOTC's decision that products need only the 3 Core Source Books the DMG PH and MM. I dont understand why people are fretting about Psionics being Supernatural. Ok they ignore SR but are still stopped by an anti-magic field. Also with that if you look in the XPH there are a bootload of feats that non psionics can take that do a hell of alot against them. Hmm i dont see any feats psionics can take to do the same to magic users. The way i deal with psionics is that before the times of troubles psionics were completely different and seperate from the weave and was an extraordinary ability. Just like how House Oblodra still could use their psionic powers when everyone elses magic in Menzoberranzin was going awry. HOWEVER after the times of troubles when the new mystra was appointed it became tied to the weave in a way that it became a supernatural ability(Note: see when House Oblodra was crushed in the times of troubles by the other houses because they couldnt access their powers, the Illithids, another psionic race clearly indicated that the pathway for accessing psionics had changed and they had learned this new way to access it)
Vedvesica 07-17-04, 05:10 AM	Edit: Double Post
MaskedOne 07-17-04, 09:19 AM	I like the new setup for psionics actually. I've wanted a form of magic in Toril that isn't ruled by the whims of a deity for some time. Setting psionics up as weaveless magic accomplishes that without forcing me to create a new class. For all intents and purposes it's as balanced as the Shadow Weave since under normal FR rules it is still subject to Anti-magic and spells that operate against magic. Shar and Mystra control the rest of magic in the realms (something that would annoy me if I thought about it for long), FR will survive having ONE form of power that an unpredictable deity can't deny access to. Well, that and now my Weave using spellcasters can devote a level or two to psionics and not be utterly powerless in Dead Magic Zones. It's always good to have one or two tricks hidden away. A form of Weaveless magic sounds like a very good trick in certain areas. Minor side note: Since Psionics are magic under the current rules, depending on how you interpret Mystra's portfolio, she still has a say in how much they can do. She can't deny them but that old line about Mystra being the goddess of the possibilities of magic is rather open ended. I've seen people interpret it as being able to affect what can be done with the Shadow Weave and if it can affect Shar's Weave then it may affect Psions as well.
Lancelot3679 07-17-04, 10:13 AM	My respects to Ed and all, but I think that I would stick with the rules that Psionics are separate from the Weave. It’s always been my feeling that psionics and magic are two separate things that run on different wavelengths that oppose each other. That’s not to say that they don’t have aspects that aren’t mutually exclusive though either. I would take the example of a priest, a mage, and a psion acting something like broadcast receivers. Priests and Mages are tapping into something that is already there. They manipulate the power source that has been provided for them, and have discovered how to use it. Gods can not invest some of their divine essence into a being directly, so they allow users to siphon off of the weave to create their powers. This is of course save for those deities that have been able to control their divine powers and place them into special individuals as “Chosen,” in which case they gain special abilities that I have ruled can still exist in areas that are without magic (much like the spellfire wielder’s ability to repair the weave). Psions on the other hand send out their own mental waves and affect others. Sometimes they manifest abilities that rely on the weave simply because they are without the power in themselves to manifest something. For instance, I would see nothing wrong with a psion using their mind blast or mind wipe on another creature even inside a magic dead zone because they are exerting power over things that they can control, but manifesting “energy cone” would require the presence of the weave. In that case I would rule that a psion is using their power to form energy from the weave into the power that they use and that it could not exist in the world without the weave. There is a small issue of game mechanics, that psions are more powerful in that sense, so some might want to rule out that they two groups are different. I would have to disagree with The Simbul that it makes Psions more powerful though. I think that the 3.0/3.5 team did a good job working out the psionic system so that it is not on an equal power setting as magic, and that’s why I don’t feel bad about making the distinction. Sure, psions in 3.5 can power up a manifestation of something like energy cone so that it does more damage, but it is still less cost efficient that the same powers of a mage. Energy ball and fireball for example are very different, with the psionic version being more costly. Now, as far as penetration value, the mages win there again. Making a magic user in FR and D&D, you can easily specialize your mage with spell focus and spell penetration to get through hardened defenses. The focusing of this and a high intelligence can allow for much higher DCs on spells than those of a psion even with power penetration. At the same time, stacking meta-magic feats on spells is much easier than a psion placing powerful feats into a manifestation because they have to burn their psionic focus. I will say that there is one caveat that I save for the purpose of game balance and that is that Power Resistance and Spell Resistance are similar in effect and work against both magical and psionic powers. This is more important at higher levels where not having the right defense could lead to a right thrashing by a monster of the appropriate type (as was learned by a high level party that ran into a Caller-in-Darkness. The mages protections were limited, and the party got trashed by a comparatively weaker creature because of issues like that. So, I hold a rule where a character that has something that defends against magic or psionics, it works for both. Tie-to-the-defender ruling. As to Cunning’s mention of Dracolich and the power for their breath weapon, I would say that the power of the potions and magics used to instill a Dracolich with its powers converts that essence of the dragon’s soul into a special ability that before was a natural ability. It’s a part of the treatment that transfers that power to the new undead body. On this point though, I’ve also ruled that some of the awesome powers of dragons and other creatures are natural abilities and not magically based. Make a dragon much scarier when you don’t have anything magical that can just negate breath weapons ready (but the same goes for remoraz, winter wolves, etc.).
ssvegeta555 07-17-04, 10:38 AM	Originally posted by Vedvesica I dont understand why people are fretting about Psionics being Supernatural. Ok they ignore SR but are still stopped by an anti-magic field. Also with that if you look in the XPH there are a bootload of feats that non psionics can take that do a hell of alot against them. Hmm i dont see any feats psionics can take to do the same to magic users. By defualt psioncs and magic are pretty much the same thing in terms of what affects who. SR block both spells and powers, the same goes for PR. Both are affected by anit magic stuff, despel, ect.
MaskedOne 07-17-04, 01:32 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul Thank you. To add to that, If a Dragon's Fiery Breath, a Ghosts ability to manifest, a Pixie's NATURAL invisibility, and a sorcerer's inborn spellcasting powers are all dependent upon the Weave to manifest, then I fail to see why psionics should somehow be exempt. A Psions powers are no more "inner" or "intuitive" than a Sorcerer's, yet Forgotten Realms Sorcerers did not retain their core rules fluff desription of their magic coming from "within" in a FR game. Instead, their inuitive magic was translated into an inuitive way of manigpulating the Weave. A Dragon's Breath Weapon is likewise a natural an inherent talent, yet in Faerun all dragons still require Mystra or Shar's approval to even cough up a spark. There is no reason for Psioncs to somehow not be intepreted the same way. [/B] Unless an errata changed it you're slightly off here. Deny Weave affects only spells and spell like abilities so the dragon for example doesn't really care what Mystra and Shar think of it's breath weapon which is a supernatural ability. I'm not entirely sure why dead magic would affect it but barring revisions that I haven't seen supernatural abilities are not subject to Deny Weave or Deny Shadow Weave.
Psionycx 07-17-04, 01:57 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul If Psionics was not weave dependent in any fashion, then one fails to understand why psions didnt rule the face of Toril prior to the creation of the Weave, and crush spellcasters as soon as they arose. If psionics is not weave dependent in any fashion, then one fails to understand why illithids didnt go all out during the time of troubles to enslave the underdark. The only example we have in realmslore of Psionics not being inhbited by the Weave and fully taking advantage of it is a little novel by R.A. Salvatore, and because of that and the favored treatment psionics recieved in 2E, we now have to contend with the precendent breaking notion of psionics being the only magic-esque power in faerun that doesnt come from a weave. You have to examine your own statement here carefully to find the answers, which are very simple. For starters, psionic beings didn't conquer the world prior to the creation of the Weave because the Weave has been around since Mystryl was created, which was in the primordial days when Shar and Selune were still fighting over the fate of Toril and the Creator Races had yet to be born. It has been said many times in FR products that psionics were rare because magic was such a readily available force in the world. The Weave, provided by Mystryl, was a conduit for energy purposely designed to allow mortal beings to access universal energies. Since the Weave was there and ready to use, how many beings do you suppose were going to go to the trouble of devoting perhaps generations to discovering an alternative conduit for drawing energy to power supernatral feats? Just look at the real world. It's possible to run an automobile using hydrogen fuel cells, thus freeing oneself from dependency on oil. Yet the majority of people still drive gasoline-powered cars. Psionics probably came to the Realms with extraplanar visitors like the Illithids, who did indeed employ their strange powers to great effect. But the fact that magic and psionics were different did not mean that magic was utterly powerless against psionics. It merely meant that different defenses were required to protect against it than against magic. This difference explains how the Illithids were able to hold their own and flourish against more numerous, magically-capable, rivals such as the drow. These same principles apply to Shadow Weave users really. It has been implied that the Shadow Weave has been a around a long time (though how long is unclear). And yet, comparatively few beings use it. Why? Because most weren't even looking for it. The Weave was there and easy to learn how to use, why even try to develop an alternate methodology of magic? Most beings with spell-like powers still draw on the Weave, because it's there and readily accessible. Psionics was so different that most creatures never encountered it (and many still don't). It also took a different body of knowledge to elarn how to use. Finally, it was better suited to some tasks (like mental contact) than others (like manipulating climate or terrain) than magic was. Many psionic effects begin and end with their users, so free-standing psionic effects were less common. All of this made psionics obscure. Yes, during the Time of Troubles psionics did become an ace card for some. But that was only a brief interlude when magic was gone. And many people forget that during the ToT the world had to deal with purely physical calamities and not just magical disruption. Psionics users were not exempt and had to deal with rampaging monsters, physical disasters and simple survival as much as anyone else. Psionics is just another element of providing some variation in the game to keep things interesting.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 07-17-04, 02:12 PM	Meh, I suppose it just comes down to how every DM wants to run it. I however will always rule that magic and psionics are the same in EVERY way, and that psionics is just another focus to get power from the weave through Mystra (possibly with a shadow psionics for people who hate Mystra). Why does it bother people so much to think that a God has control over their lives?
Psionycx 07-17-04, 02:20 PM	It's more a question of a specific god (or two) having control over their lives. Mystra is already enough of an overbearing presence in the Realms as it is. Why not just rule that everything is under her dominion? It's also a question of the "flavor" of psionics. Psionics is not just supposed to be another spellcaster type. Otherwise the whole concept was rendered obsolete by the advent of the sorceror. Psionics is supposed to be a different sort of of power, not just another kind of spellcasting. It follows different rules for exactly that reason. Likewise, it has limitations that magic doesn't, and benefits that magic doesn't. It provides a story hook to explain scenarios that require a supernatural element, but in which magic doesn't fit. And it serves as a tool for keeping magic users from becoming too overly sure of themselves.
Cthulhu 07-19-04, 06:37 AM	I'm pretty happy with the seperation of Weave and psionics. It makes sense in most ways for a couple of reasons. 1) The metaphysics of magic in the Realms seems to be more complex and layered than most FR posters are willing to give it credit for. The Weave was spawned in a cosmic accident. Its proven to be imperfect, what with copies being made...dead magic fields...mortals able to wipe it out of existence (if only for a second)...being limited only to a single plane of existence (and even there its not the only possible route to magic)...etc, etc. Its neither a surprise or out of bounds to think magic might exist exclusive of the Weave since the Weave itself is not (magically speaking) all encompassing even it its limited area. 2) The reasons for psionics in the first place. Its supposed to be different from the common forms of magic and it is. If your not comfortable using psionics because of its differences than you really shouldn't be using it. 3) Following on the heels of #2 is the fact that psionics is still optional. The PGtF didn't change that...it only filled out psionics for those who ARE using an optional rule. And lets face it...that optional rule was designed for people who LIKE psionics the way it is (ie something special from the usual magics). I think for the most part people who like psionics approve of the way its handled in the Player's Guide. IMO those people who are complaining about the way the optional rules handle psionics are chasing thier own tails. The very definition of 'optional rule' means that it is not in the least binding on the Dungeon Master or his campaign. Its not canon. Its a suggestion. You can apply psionics in any way you wish to the setting (although doing so in a manner contradictory to the Player's Guide seems to be flawed and ill considered IMO). So arguing that the optional rule of psionics is somehow inconsistent with canon Weave is silly. Optional rules are supposed to offer different ways of doing things from canon.
MaskedOne 07-19-04, 07:58 AM	Originally posted by Ferol, Debtor of Torm Meh, I suppose it just comes down to how every DM wants to run it. I however will always rule that magic and psionics are the same in EVERY way, and that psionics is just another focus to get power from the weave through Mystra (possibly with a shadow psionics for people who hate Mystra). Why does it bother people so much to think that a God has control over their lives? I have no idea. Why do people take pride and joy in ceding absolute dominion of their lives or this case their PCs to beings who are historically almost as flawed as we are? Anyway setting Psionics up outside divine control does not put the PCs life outside said control. Your luck is still subject to Tymora and Beshaba, whether or not your ideas spread is still subject to Oghma. How your spirit is handled is still subject to the rules AO set up. You just happen to have access to one form of power that isn't under the strict control of beings who contrary to their own propaganda can and do screw up royally. Forgive me if I can't find a problem in enjoying that one small liberty.
ruleslawyer 07-19-04, 03:10 PM	Originally posted by Alac Luin When asked about psionics, Rich Baker said that psionics are not weave dependent, but do not function in an AMF. My shadow weave analogy was more in line with the rules used in determining it's use.Y'know, you're right. I actually should have read the rules, shouldn't I? From Player's Guide to Faerun, p.172: Psionics and the Weave Unlike spells, which derive their power from the Weave (or Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects.... While psionics does not require the Weave to function, psionic powers are magical in nature.... In Faerun, psionics and magic are not transparent to each other; they interact exactly as magic interacts with other magic. So, as of 3.5, psionics are not Weave-dependent, although they are magical. Interesting.
WizO_BigSister 07-19-04, 05:36 PM	Originally posted by ruleslawyer So, as of 3.5, psionics are not Weave-dependent, although they are magical. Interesting. Doesn't that depend on your definition of magic? Do any of the sources tell us that psionics are magic, or is it just a label being used to describe all paranormal and supernatural things?
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 07-20-04, 12:35 AM	I have no idea. Why do people take pride and joy in ceding absolute dominion of their lives or this case their PCs to beings who are historically almost as flawed as we are? If the PCs HATE having gods in control of their lives than they should not play forgotten realms where everything is very godcentric. There are lots of settings out there where gods are either next to nonexistant or powerless as people would have them be. I for one like forgotten realms the way it is.... meddling Mystra and all!
MaskedOne 07-20-04, 01:01 AM	Originally posted by Ferol, Debtor of Torm If the PCs HATE having gods in control of their lives than they should not play forgotten realms where everything is very godcentric. There are lots of settings out there where gods are either next to nonexistant or powerless as people would have them be. I for one like forgotten realms the way it is.... meddling Mystra and all! Or I could simply take advantage of the handful of things that deities don't control and not abandon a campaign setting that on whole I like. I'm rather happy with the various powers of Faerun (Mystra included) even if they are slightly overpowered for my usual tastes and I'm very happy with how the mortal realm has developed as a campaign setting. However, just because I'm willing to ignore the fact that Toril's pantheon has more power than I'd prefer already does not mean I have any desire to hand over on a silver platter the few things they don't control which at the moment includes psionic powers. The setting will survive my minor flaws and occasional lack of trust for its pantheon.
perfectcrime 07-20-04, 11:10 AM	If I may borrow a partial quote from another esteemed poster: tying Psionics to the Weave was an "adhoc, retrofit" conversion aftermeasure to both appease the squeemish who could not handle the addition of Psionics to the game and alienate those who liked and could handle them previous to conversion that would hate to see them gone from the game. Psi as we understand it relates to the mind. It is a play on words that we use everyday: psychiatry, psychology, psychoanalysis, psychadelic, ect. Of or relating to the mind is individualistic where it concerns the player character. Obviously Psionics does not mean of or relating to the mind of divinity otherwise we would play Deities and Demi-Gods rather than D&D. Psionics in the fantasy setting was intended to introduce a player character with a power unfettered by divinity and or a supernatural cosmic force governed by divinity, a power fueled by the overall strength and resilience of the player character's mind and body. This is represented by the Psionic Strength Point. In the FR wizards/sorcerers have arcane spells tied to the Weave. The Wizard, not nearly intuitive as its cousin the sorcerer, must study and embark upon ritualistic ceremony to unlock the Weave for the briefest of moments as it fashions a spell. I do not see a Wizard Strength Point anywhere in the PHB. The Sorcerer, on the other hand, feels the burn of the Weave within its blood. It must only study once to comprehend what it can then do for the rest of its life, if it so chooses. Nope, not even the Sorcerer has a Sorcerer Strength Point. Then the FR has Clerics who have divine spells, which are indirectly tied to the Weave through his or her patron deity. The Cleric must pray at the prescribed time to receive his or her spells. Yet again, I do not see a Cleric Strength Point. The inclusion of a power point for Psions is indicative of a power that originates from within not from without. Otherwise, like a Sorcerer a Psion would be unlimited in the number of times per day it could use power X. I like the idea that Psionics are different in my games, because in my FR Psionics represents the part of magic Selune and Shar lost when Selune attacked Shar to create Mystryl.
GothicDan 07-20-04, 02:41 PM	Being a physics student, I find it terribly hard to believe that there are such disconnected manifestations of power, from cleric, to wizard, to psionicist. Mind you, I'm hardly expecting fantasy settings to go by the rules of reality, but rather I like for them to have a consistent metaphysical reality - things that still 'make sense,' even if they don't happen in the real world. As far as I see it, psionics, arcane magic, and divine magic are all different methods of doing the same thing. For instance, you can light a fire with a match or a lighter, but ultimately you're still creating the same effect with the same energy. So although I have no formal basis for wanting or not wanting psionics tied to the Weave (I like the Githyanki a lot, though), I wouldn't go so far as to make it completely seperate from magic. As far as Wizard/Cleric/Etc. Power Points? Well, in 2E the Player's Options: Spells and Magic provided you with systems for 'power point' magic. I know a lot of people that prefer this to the standard memorization by spell level, and no where in FR does it say that such a method of magic is disallowed. But I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person on this thread who know of that. In the end, it's really up to what a DM wants to do in his game with psionics, right?
ruleslawyer 07-20-04, 04:42 PM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister Doesn't that depend on your definition of magic? Do any of the sources tell us that psionics are magic, or is it just a label being used to describe all paranormal and supernatural things? Hiya, Big Sis! Well, it depends on the designers' definition of magic, actually. By definition (see the DMG), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities are magical. And if you reread my post above, you'll see that yes, the sources do tell us that psionics are magic. To once again quote the text from PGtF already quoted in my post above: From Player's Guide to Faerun, p.172: Psionics and the Weave ... While psionics does not require the Weave to function, psionic powers are magical in nature....That's all. Now, as to how this actually works: Well, Magic of Faerun lays this out pretty completely. Realmspace/Toril is suffused with raw magic, which in turn is overlaid by the Weave and Shadow Weave (except where there are dead magic areas). Creatures can thus generate spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities by one of the following means: 1) Manipulating the Weave: This is the default method, at least according to how the description of dead magic areas works. Any creature that does not use the Shadow Weave or some other non-Weave means of creating magic uses the Weave. That means that medusa gazes, cleric spells, and phaerimm magic all draw on the Weave. 2) Manipulating the Shadow Weave: As above, but with the Shadow Weave. 3) Using the "mini-Weave" generated by one's own psionic ability to draw psionic powers from raw magic. 4) Tapping raw magic directly (spellfire).
ClobberinTime 07-21-04, 11:09 AM	The semi-transparency can be easy. An AMF effects the effect of psionics on the world, and doesn't cut off the user from anything. The user feels just the same when he is creating the psionic manifestation but then poof nothing happens. AMF might be better off being called Dispel All which works on all magical and magic like effects(psionics, shadow weave based magic). Same with SR, SR blocks magic and magic like effects (psionics), but doesn't effect the casting at all. Now here an explanation of the transparency becomes more difficult. If AMF is dispel all and dead magic areas are holes in the weave (which are two very different things), then it seems to me that psionics should work in a dead magic area. Anyways, the best explanations for where and how magic might work come from Aristotles notions of substance and form which can be found in the metaphysics. Or if you don't like aristotle there are always aquinas or avicenna.
perfectcrime 07-21-04, 11:20 AM	As far as I see it, psionics, arcane magic, and divine magic are all different methods of doing the same thing. Essentially, yes. For instance, you can light a fire with a match or a lighter, but ultimately you're still creating the same effect with the same energy. I take your point. As far as Wizard/Cleric/Etc. Power Points? Well, in 2E the Player's Options: Spells and Magic provided you with systems for 'power point' magic. I know a lot of people that prefer this to the standard memorization by spell level, and no where in FR does it say that such a method of magic is disallowed. But I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person on this thread who know of that. In the end, it's really up to what a DM wants to do in his game with psionics, right? Good point. I will not dispute that the PO:S&M presented an alternative system for dispensing magic, one reminiscent of Psionics in play. The sticking point for me relates back to your match and lighter analogy. A Wizard wanting to create fire who Mystra has stripped of the Weave cannot produce fire via spellcasting. A Cleric wanting to create fire whose deity and faith has he or she abandoned cannot produce fire through prayer. A Psionicist, beholden to neither deity nor supernatural cosmic force, who wants to create fire can create fire through force of will. In this day and age where core rules lawyers and theorists are in abundance where, anywhere does it say that Mystra can deny the Weave to a Psionicist and subsequently strip the Psionicist of his or her powers? If nowhere - as a I suspect the answer will be - then how can Psionics be tied to the Weave?
perfectcrime 07-21-04, 11:24 AM	Double Post
Cthulhu 07-21-04, 02:36 PM	Originally posted by perfectcrime In this day and age where core rules lawyers and theorists are in abundance where, anywhere does it say that Mystra can deny the Weave to a Psionicist and subsequently strip the Psionicist of his or her powers? If nowhere - as a I suspect the answer will be - then how can Psionics be tied to the Weave? Your right. Nowhere does it state that Mystra can strip a psion of his power (the PGtF pretty much puts that myth to rest). You will also be hardpressed to find a phrase anywhere (in FR sourcebooks) that definitely links psionics to the Weave in 3e. Thats another popular myth.