Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Liquid_Technique 02-12-08, 06:22 PM	Dear all, I have come to conclusion that Psionics are new and better form of "Magic". I realise that this view is bit controversial so please let me explain and provide reasons why. To understand this view we have to first take a look at the case of ioulaum. He is the best and most powerful Arcanist ever (this can be debated) and for sure one of the most powerful magic users "alive". For this reason following is very important: Ioulaum isn't interested in magic any more! He's doing the psionics thing now, and in grand style I might add. The reason for this is not fully explained in the books but using simple logic it is very clear why. It seems that Ioulaum became dissillucioned with magic after the Fall of Netheril. He realized that in relying on Mystryl's Weave he was no different than the clerics who relied on divine power for their spells. Despite being a friend to the clergy of Mystra previous to Karsus' Folly, he may also have become disillusioned with her and her power. For this reason, he sought, and eventually discovered, a power source independent of the divine and the Weave both--psionics. Which is why he arranged to become an Elder Brain and so forth. This is why he hasn't gained wizard levels since the Fall--wizardry isn't his thing any more. He instead gained 20 levels of psion (included in his Elder Brain "template"). Once he's mastered his new form, he'll probably continue gaining more. Wait a few more centuries and he'll doubtless make a grand reentrance on the Faerunian scene with the first psionic mythallar (and perhaps an enclave of illithids to boot). So: 1. Divine (Clerics and so forth.) rely on power given and granted them by Divine Powers or whatever you want to call them. Divine "casters" rely on powersource of outside origin. If this powersource is taken away or not granted to them anymore they lose all power they had at that very second. They can no longer do anything. Divine COMPLETELY RELY ON 3rd PARTY TO GIVE OR NOT GIVE THEM POWER. 2. Arcanists/Mages/Wizards or whatever you want to call them, rely on power given to them or rather acess outside power source (the weave). Some of them are granted more acess than others like Larloch is. If this powersource goes boom or if their access to this powersource is denied all their power they have is gone. They can no longer do anything. WIZARDS/ARCANE COMPELTELY RELY ON 3rd PARTY TO GIVE/GRANT OR DENY THEM POWER. 3. Unlike magic, call it divine or arcane, psionics stems from the mind and body, rather than external sources. Please read that again. Psionics is the ability to harness, shape, and control natural forces through the power of the mind. The power source for psionics is Psion himself. Power is not taken or granted or anything remotely like that. 4. As we all know there is no better weapon than the mind (human brain in real life but in D&D lets just use term mind as in D&D there are other "races" on par with humans.) Psionics are all about the mind. Ioulaum realised that what he has is borrowed power that can be taken away just like that from him any second wether he likes it or not. He also something better and new... Psionics! Psionics is VERY flavorful concept and frankly said is great for the realms. A new type of powersource compeltely independent from any of the so called gods or other major powers. It is a power source these "gods" and other uber beings can not just grant or take away just like that. Ioulaum realised that and is now after NEW power that can not be taken away from him. A new power that has potential to surpass the existing divine and arcane or at least to be on par. When you have one of the best Arcanists ever give up arcane magic in order to study and rely on this new power you know there is something special to it. Thanks for taking time to read this, Liquid_Technique
DrunkMonk 02-12-08, 07:40 PM	Yummy - spam. dm
anjinson 02-12-08, 08:23 PM	Technically they could be taken away...they are Gods...if they want to leave a mortal whimpering and powerless they can. Do you think that something as mundane as the source of the power will stop them? Ooooh, scary mortal, thinks he can dupe the Gods because he's a psionicist...ooohh!!! Your theory is interesting but an anti-magic field...or if you play that psionics are "different", then an anti-psionic field...will be just as debilitating...and once within it, a giant rock will squish said "man of unrevokable power" just like a little bug. The problem is not the form of power, because, weave, shadow-weave, divine, psionic etc. are still being wieldded by mortal hands, and as such each has weaknesses, just as they have strengths...how you allow these to be manifest in your game is up to you.
The Ubbergeek 02-12-08, 09:21 PM	Two notes; -First, Psionic have limitations and weaknesses of it's own. Like less boom bang, great destruction powers in general, it's much more subtile. And personal. -Second, there is a God of psionics. And gods. **** off Auppenser (if and when he wake up).... or worse, the monster ones...
anjinson 02-13-08, 11:10 AM	Another note... I always felt as if psionics were an after thought in the game...why aren't the psionic classes in the PHB just like Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, Fighter and their variants?
The Ubbergeek 02-13-08, 03:09 PM	Another note... I always felt as if psionics were an after thought in the game...why aren't the psionic classes in the PHB just like Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, Fighter and their variants? Historicaly, they came later, yes... But that present also the problem called 'Psionic X' - to make clones of existing classes/archetypes, only psionic, and so not accounting much the flavor and feel of that power so well. But they were a part of greenwood's realms, since a long long time. He have psionic in his home game, it's a part of his vision - Heck, Haxmaster... Elminster had psionic power also.
Markustay 02-13-08, 03:23 PM	I spoke a little of this in another thread, about the Rolemaster system, but basically it boils down to this - In Oriental Mysticism and Holistic thinking, a person's 'being' is divided into three things - Body, Mind, and Soul. In the preview books, it appears they will be embracing part of this, at least concerning Undead, with creatures being composed of thre seperate 'things', and must have ALL three, to be considered alive in the traditional sense. I forget what the 4e term for 'soul' is, but it sounds like some of Incarnum will be trickling into core. Anyhow, to extrapolate out from that, it means each of a person's 'states of being' is capable of accessing a DIFFERENT power source. Body deals with the physical, and the manipulation of things around you. That lends itself well to Arcane Magic, where a person 'wills' changes to the physical world. Soul, Obviously, lends itself to the Divine - the ability to access 'higher beings and powers' and channel energy from those sources. Mind, of course, directly translates to Psionics and mental abilities. By the sheer power of your over-large brain, you can control others, and manipulate objects, time, and space. All three are equally powerful, and each has its subtle nuances. A person who master one is an epic character, but a person who masters all three... Well... that would be a god. ;) After all, what else would you call a Monk 20 (Body), Psion 20 (Mind), and Priest 20 (Soul)? A level 60 BMF? Another note... I always felt as if psionics were an after thought in the game...why aren't the psionic classes in the PHB just like Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, Fighter and their variants?They probably considered a psion class in the 4e PHB, but the problem is it would be worthless without the Psionics Handbook. Besides, a lot of people don't use psionics, so it's better to keep it an optional system (even though that screws over certain monsters, like Illithids Duergar/Derro, and Aboleths).
anjinson 02-13-08, 03:30 PM	Yeah, but the psionic stuff has been around long enough that they should incorporate it. Psion, Psychic Warrior at the very least should be base classes. I keep expecting it to happen with each new release, but then it always ends up in a separate book.
GoldDragon 02-13-08, 04:22 PM	Dear all, I have come to conclusion that Psionics are new and better form of "Magic". I realise that this view is bit controversial so please let me explain and provide reasons why. To understand this view we have to first take a look at the case of ioulaum. He is the best and most powerful Arcanist ever (this can be debated) and for sure one of the most powerful magic users "alive". For this reason following is very important: Ioulaum isn't interested in magic any more! He's doing the psionics thing now, and in grand style I might add. The reason for this is not fully explained in the books but using simple logic it is very clear why. It seems that Ioulaum became dissillucioned with magic after the Fall of Netheril. He realized that in relying on Mystryl's Weave he was no different than the clerics who relied on divine power for their spells. Despite being a friend to the clergy of Mystra previous to Karsus' Folly, he may also have become disillusioned with her and her power. For this reason, he sought, and eventually discovered, a power source independent of the divine and the Weave both--psionics. Which is why he arranged to become an Elder Brain and so forth. This is why he hasn't gained wizard levels since the Fall--wizardry isn't his thing any more. He instead gained 20 levels of psion (included in his Elder Brain "template"). Once he's mastered his new form, he'll probably continue gaining more. Wait a few more centuries and he'll doubtless make a grand reentrance on the Faerunian scene with the first psionic mythallar (and perhaps an enclave of illithids to boot). So: 1. Divine (Clerics and so forth.) rely on power given and granted them by Divine Powers or whatever you want to call them. Divine "casters" rely on powersource of outside origin. If this powersource is taken away or not granted to them anymore they lose all power they had at that very second. They can no longer do anything. Divine COMPLETELY RELY ON 3rd PARTY TO GIVE OR NOT GIVE THEM POWER. 2. Arcanists/Mages/Wizards or whatever you want to call them, rely on power given to them or rather acess outside power source (the weave). Some of them are granted more acess than others like Larloch is. If this powersource goes boom or if their access to this powersource is denied all their power they have is gone. They can no longer do anything. WIZARDS/ARCANE COMPELTELY RELY ON 3rd PARTY TO GIVE/GRANT OR DENY THEM POWER. 3. Unlike magic, call it divine or arcane, psionics stems from the mind and body, rather than external sources. Please read that again. Psionics is the ability to harness, shape, and control natural forces through the power of the mind. The power source for psionics is Psion himself. Power is not taken or granted or anything remotely like that. 4. As we all know there is no better weapon than the mind (human brain in real life but in D&D lets just use term mind as in D&D there are other "races" on par with humans.) Psionics are all about the mind. Ioulaum realised that what he has is borrowed power that can be taken away just like that from him any second wether he likes it or not. He also something better and new... Psionics! Psionics is VERY flavorful concept and frankly said is great for the realms. A new type of powersource compeltely independent from any of the so called gods or other major powers. It is a power source these "gods" and other uber beings can not just grant or take away just like that. Ioulaum realised that and is now after NEW power that can not be taken away from him. A new power that has potential to surpass the existing divine and arcane or at least to be on par. When you have one of the best Arcanists ever give up arcane magic in order to study and rely on this new power you know there is something special to it. Thanks for taking time to read this, Liquid_Technique Magic and life is made from the same "stuff" and Sentience is the ability for a life force to think so Magic,Thought,Life, and the "divine Spark" are actually interrelated and not separate forces...though it becomes the "Ether"(source of magic),"Gia"(source of life), and the "Mindscape" Where thoughts coalesce and form a "collective consciousness" allowing interaction between all minds and reality that allows for Psionics and even create anomalies like "Dotrak" and other "gods" from the collective consciousness of it's believers and worshipers (As the whole it's the "Multiversal Mind" or "Multiversal Consiousness" and to could be labeled "GOD" as it premeates all of existance and seems to help in spontaniously creating more time,space,and life...like the godlings that spontaniously come into existence from it) Not to mention that, like Electromagnetism, Life/Magic/thought is natural energy which is also interchangeable with Life/magic/thought and breaks down into it's "related" and "reactive" forces ("Weak","Strong","gravity") Meta Mages (Wizads that feed off their life force to power their magic), Psionist (Those that use their own life energy to effect reality with their mind) and Mystics (Those that use their own "divine Spark" to create Clerical effects that match anything a godling could grant) are the most independent of the Classes of the study of Life and Magic cause they need not depend on anyone else or anything else to empower themselves except their own will,lifeforce and being. Hmmm. A Psionist beating a a Meta Mage spontaniously casting a Delayed Blast Fireball or Finger of Death from his/her own essense...depends on the the defenses up (Energy containment?) and attack mode used. A Psionist v.s. a Mystic spontaniously casting Harm or Slay Living or such from his/her own "Divine Spark"...again depends on Defenses and attack modes used. P.S. Native Torrilians are Mentalists (Sorcerers that specialize in Mind over matter) or 3rd eddtion Psionist that depend on the Weave and Mystra which is why they were disempowered when Mystra died during the times of Troubles and only recently have they come back. 2nd Eddition Psionics (real mind over reality) supposedly never existed in Native Torilians though Creatures like Mind Flayers on Toril still have and use it. Just have to simply make any PC with real Psionics a non-Torillian if you want to keep things Kosher, which isn't to far fetched considering Mind Flayers are not Natives. (Maybe a Human bloodline from one of the Iskari raided worlds or a migrant from Athas before the Black and Grey was raised to keep the Life Masters in after they managed to suck the life out of a Star and the Megalith that is "Athas" ?)
The_Shaman 02-13-08, 05:17 PM	Historicaly, they came later, yes... But that present also the problem called 'Psionic X' - to make clones of existing classes/archetypes, only psionic, and so not accounting much the flavor and feel of that power so well. But they were a part of greenwood's realms, since a long long time. He have psionic in his home game, it's a part of his vision - Heck, Haxmaster... Elminster had psionic power also. Not by much, mind you. AD&D already had psionics... and either it or the first Unearthed Arcana was the source that introduced druids and bards, so psionicists have been around for quite a while by now.
anjinson 02-13-08, 05:49 PM	Yeah well I am all for the KISS theory (Keep it simple stupid), and IMO (because I was born with one), when the classes feats, skills, powers etc. are created as part of the base system, there is less chance for broken aspects to the game...because ideally they were all "conceived" under the unified principles of the game, and therefore the base rules can be applied without ambiguity, and without exception. Psionics seem to have come around to the point where they should part of the base rule set...unlike say Dark Sun...so what are they waiting for? Someone mentioned that they could be considered an optional rule...I guess I will buy that if that is the company schtick.
GoldDragon 02-13-08, 06:52 PM	Another note... I always felt as if psionics were an after thought in the game...why aren't the psionic classes in the PHB just like Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, Fighter and their variants? Psionisc is more futuristic then Medevil and even the exceptions like the Gith and Mind Flayers and Aboleths? are outright Psionsts with "other worldly powers" a PC could never have. Likewise the Vampire Lord's Charm Ability and Empathic link with his retainers was always more Mind control then Magical So while Psionics have been in D&D a while it was just never in a Playable Race as "Kosher" though it was optional in 1st eddition but usually limited to Wild talents like Danger Sense or limited TK. And as far as the Limitations of True Psionics: 1) Damage,stun or Destroy the mind and Psionics don't work Cast Feeblemind, Confusion, Mindblast (5th level,rare), or even a called shot shocking Grasp to the head and get past the Magic resistance (which sucks being not particularly magical in being) the "all powerful Psionist" is down for the count. (Love using deathspell and power word kill, and Mass Deathon Mind Flayers cause their Magic resistence sucks) A strong willed High Level Fighter can't necesarrily shake off the effects off of Fireball, but can possible shake off the effects of a Psionic attack long enough to take the Psionics head with his 2 handed great axe. 2) There are Magic and mundane means that defends and Detects and counters Psionics, and Psionics effects can be interrupted by natural phenomenon like Electric Storms, Lead, Electromagnetic fields, and EM bursts Detect Psionics (3rd level,Rare), and a Archmage turning a Fireball blasts into a EM burst to disable Psionics (and Magical abilities) in an area for a while for example. Simply wearing a mildly magnetized metal pot Helm (used by evil merchants that deal with mind flayers to disallow them physical and mental access to the Merchant's brains) makes it impossible to a Mind Flayer or Psionist to control the mind protected with in it. Lead not only stops Magical Fields but Psionic ones too 3) Lets remeber the "Catch of" Using Real Psionics a) Power Check for every Science or devotion must be made and pass sometimes with all your eye wincing, teeth clenching, and holding your head and point all you might manage to do is pass wind b) If it's a Mind to Mind power (Telepathic) you must beat the opposing Psionists defense score, and even non Psionist get a save. All that Straining to "make something happen" still requires interaction with reality and things may not go as plan c) Something can and does usually does go wrong on 1 or 20 on the attack roll....blowing a few brain cells being the least of your worries Not onlly are you always at great risk if mentally and physically damaging yourself if you aren't in peek shape in "The Will and the Way", but playing with reality via the force of mind can cause many odd side effects...usually not to the alterer's favor..to happen.
anjinson 02-13-08, 07:16 PM	I am not sure I follow your thought process here...sounds like you are living in 2nd Edition world...in which case psionics were terribly broken, among many other things. I would say that 2nd edition exemplifies the "afterthought" theory whereas v3.5 seems to have tamed and conformed psionics to the base ruleset a bit better. I think they need to take it a step further and just suck it up and have Psion be a base class...as there are no race restrictions in v3.5 that is a non-issue. As far as futuristic vs. medevil...I think that is irrelevant, as the "flavor" is in how you play it...you can certainly make it more or less futuristic if you wish. I think some people are intimidated by psionics...probably more of dealing with the unknown, than anything else...I mean what is more annoying than having your NPCs entire diabolical plot brought down because a player has some power you did not account for...talk about deflation of drama. However, psionics like other forms of "magic" is manageable and IMO, the best scenario is when you treat it just like another form of magic (as opposed to the psionics are different tack). My point being in response to the original post... 1. Psionics are no better or worse than the other forms of "magic". 2. When do the writers make the Psion a base class and put it all in the PHB??
Markustay 02-14-08, 12:02 PM	Someone mentioned that they could be considered an optional rule...I guess I will buy that if that is the company schtick.I did, but not so much because it hasn't been around almost as long as the game itself, but rather because you could NOT do it well within the space limitations of the PHB. As it is, they barely get the magic system in place, and require at least 2-3 more sourcebooks to fully flesh it out. What would you rather have, a 'poor man's version' of psionics in the PHB that would be wholly inadequate, or a well thought out system fully conceived in a seperate stand-alone book? No matter how you slice it, keeping it seperate is better for BOTH the people who like it, and the people who hate it.
anjinson 02-14-08, 12:49 PM	Okay so the book might weigh a few extra pounds, but that does not mean they will do a poor job on the content...I mean geez kill them before they even start.
Markustay 02-14-08, 04:14 PM	But the 4e books will be only 160 pgs... scaling down to 120 by 4.5... and finally be $100 12-page pamphlets by 5e. :rolleyes:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-14-08, 04:18 PM	Why sell a 500 pg book for $40 when you can sell TWO 200 pg books for $70? :)
Markustay 02-14-08, 04:30 PM	or three 120 pg. books for $120? ;) Less for More... its Games Workshop all over again... No one minds paying more for something they enjoy - after all, we understand what inflation is all about; we're not idiots. By simultaneously increasing font size while lowering page counts is just 'milking the cow' for all its worth. :(
The Ubbergeek 02-14-08, 04:30 PM	But the 4e books will be only 160 pgs... scaling down to 120 by 4.5... and finally be $100 12-page pamphlets by 5e. :rolleyes: Fact is, psionic is still a very debated topic - a good lot of players and DM don't like it, the very concept or the execution of it. There is not much other options, as much as I'd like, than to put it separate from core core.
Markustay 02-14-08, 04:38 PM	Absolutely - I've never used it, but I might in 4e. I bought the 3e books for it, but truth be told, only gave them a cursory glance-at. Dark Wizard has convinced me the system is worth digging into, so when I start up my new campaign, I might just try to incorporate them better. Since I have to learn a new system anyway, thats the time to do it. Hopefully they will bring back DarkSun in 4e, which will give psionic lovers a home of their own once again. I never played in it, but I found the setting facinating.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-14-08, 04:46 PM	As a DM I love psionics, and the best NPC I've made ( or so my party says) was a Psion (Athena, inspired in KOF Game). Still i like XPH saparated from PHB. The system is not that different from magic. it just uses points instead of slots. I also like incarnum quite a bit, but for some reason I didn't like ToB :(
The_Shaman 02-14-08, 08:40 PM	Ok, I'll bite: wasn't the KoF Athena more of a fighting type? She'd seem like a psychic warrior to me, tbh.
The Ubbergeek 02-14-08, 08:46 PM	With Monk levels, maybe.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-14-08, 10:04 PM	Monk/Fist of (whatever the name of that psionic god) :D At first she has a full fleshed psion she "died" then came back as a monk/Fo(?) (Athena I manifested a Mindseed to a monk attacked by a MindFlayer resulting in permanent brain damage or something to that effect, it was a long time ago)
The Ubbergeek 02-14-08, 10:22 PM	Zuoken, a minor god of monks and psion who is attached to Xen Yae, the Greyhawk monastic goddess who is kind of a Mystra of Psionic.
The_Shaman 02-15-08, 04:57 AM	Hmm, speaking of Mystra and psionics... You could rename the class Fist of Auppensar if He wakes up a bit more... IIRC there was already a Monastic Servant of Auppensar PrC that could give a cleric some psionic combat goodies.
GoldDragon 02-15-08, 08:20 AM	Fact is, psionic is still a very debated topic - a good lot of players and DM don't like it, the very concept or the execution of it. There is not much other options, as much as I'd like, than to put it separate from core core. It's like playing power combat of gods v.s. gods and immortals v.s. immortals....or maybe even a abstract form of War, Pokemon, or Magic the Gathering if you set it up right. Do it by Creating Devotion and Sciences "Cards" on 3x5 cards for the Pc as well as the monsters with the "math" done for priming, inititive adjustment,etc on the card and then in combat the cards go down, face down at the begining of each round (except for defences that are continuous which can be face up), then are flipped when it is the Psionic creature using the Psionic power turn is up If there is going to be Psionic combat or interference or defenses to fight against the data is on the card to to figure out "win,lose,draw" with a few rolls of the dice.
Alkasyn 02-15-08, 03:08 PM	Yeah, but the psionic stuff has been around long enough that they should incorporate it. Psion, Psychic Warrior at the very least should be base classes. I keep expecting it to happen with each new release, but then it always ends up in a separate book. I believe they said they're kicking out the bard, the monk and the druid from he 4th Ed. PHB, and utting the psion there. I'm not 100% sure, though.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 03:12 PM	Simple answer: Psionics is Sci-Fi in my Fantasy Soup.
The Ubbergeek 02-15-08, 03:20 PM	Simple answer: Psionics is Sci-Fi in my Fantasy Soup. Not necessarly. Psionic is tied to science-fiction because the stereotype want that it feels more scientific, but as it was shown many times, it can be as fantasy. Be it eastern myths, or Dark Sun.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 03:25 PM	Not necessarly. Psionic is tied to science-fiction because the stereotype want that it feels more scientific, but as it was shown many times, it can be as fantasy. Be it eastern myths, or Dark Sun. It can be fantasy, sure. However, it's a Sci-Fi concept and the rules take the psi-fi version of the it. Certainly, you can use Psionics with the numbers filed off to be pure fantasy (The Force is best illustrated with Psionics), however, even this precludes the Wands and Spellbooks that people like as trappings. A Psionicist also precludes the Wizard as Scientist. Certainly, I use Sorcery in place of Psionics thematically because I hate the system, but fundamentally I think that the themes are Sci-Fi in nature. Also, it's drawn attention to by CALLING it psionics. If they'd called Psionics "Sorcerers" then they might have been able to pass it through for 3E.
The Ubbergeek 02-15-08, 04:50 PM	It's FANTASY, just look at eastern tales... The power of mind, mysticism and all that. It's as much magic as mumbo-jumbo parascience - change the names if you don't like; in game terms and out of game/book terms are not the same, you know. Heck. the current flavor is very D&D - Underdark-licious and Dark Sun-licious.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 05:23 PM	Easternism has nothing to do with psionicism. And tacking it on only insults both sides.
GoldDragon 02-15-08, 08:17 PM	Simple answer: Psionics is Sci-Fi in my Fantasy Soup. The only difference between Science fiction and Science fact is technological advancement and discovery and related concepts conserning Theory and practice. Or have you never opened a modern Cell phone and say "Beam my up Scottie"? Or have you never said "put in on Screen" while looking at those Wall mountable Plasma flat screen T.V.s? And some idiot Scientist saw Jurassic Park and are now trying to Bring Dinosaurs back for real, and a General was Watching "Predator" with his research team and told them "I wan't one of those" when he saw the Predators invisibility field and they actually made a camouflage suit using mirrors for light deflection that actually looks like the Predator's "bump" in the landscape But yes, in most Stories Psionics, Mind over Muscle,etc is usually placed in a Future Setting, though the Vampires mind control and charming ability seems more Psionic then Magical and as "alien" and futuristic as Mind Flayers may seem they are no more so then the "mutant" Demi-Humans (Dwarfs,Gnomes,Halflings,Gith) or "near men"(Elves,Orcs,Goblins,etc) where interaction between different sential Species makes some kind of "Federation" :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 08:25 PM	Yes. So you agree with me. Good for you. I'm not saying that Psionics doesn't have a place in many D&D games. Actually, hell, my fantasy novel uses psionics in explicit place of magic. I'm just explaining why it'll never be as popular as Wizardry. It feels like an element that's slightly out of place. Sort of like "Beyond the Barrier Peaks."
The_Shaman 02-17-08, 05:46 PM	Possibly. It's all in the eye of the beholder, imo, and with minimal/no changes it could fit a fantasy setting as just another way to do, well, magic.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 05:48 PM	I guess, fundamentally its an issue of what you WANT from magic.
The_Shaman 02-17-08, 05:55 PM	Possibly, but I think eventually it boils down to how you'd like your magic: by points or by slots.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 06:26 PM	Actually, Points or slots doesn't really matter to me with Psionics. I prefer points but the powers of Psionics never interested me. If they could do Fireball by Points, I'd like it but all the Psionic versions seemed to be cheap substitutes. Ditto all the other Iconic Spells.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-18-08, 12:56 PM	Actually, Points or slots doesn't really matter to me with Psionics. I prefer points but the powers of Psionics never interested me. If they could do Fireball by Points, I'd like it but all the Psionic versions seemed to be cheap substitutes. Ditto all the other Iconic Spells. And that's why I like Psionics, their powers aren't as practical, and you have to pull "MacGyver" to make "it" happen.
MarkusTay63 02-18-08, 01:00 PM	Time for an Elminster vs Yoda thread. :rolleyes:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-18-08, 01:06 PM	:rofl: El Vs. Balck Adam vs. Yoda vs. Lord Karsus vs. S.E.A.L.s vs. Drow Vs. Dr. Doom! what say you MT?