Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ClobberinTime 07-15-04, 08:09 AM	Have any of you tried to add psionics to the FR. Whats the best way to go about introducing humans, elves etc... having psionic powers. Since in FR they would be weave based maybe Mystra has decided to introduce something new to spread magic use.
Cunning Linguist 07-15-04, 08:20 AM	With the new Players Guide to faerun.. we learn that psions don't draw on the weave.. one reason why I really don't like em. Other then that, the players guide has quite a few ways of starting off psions in your games, with several plot hocks for each psion organization.
Tempus665 07-15-04, 08:36 AM	When using critters like Illithids and Duergar, it becomes almost essential to add psionics to the FR. I have used it, as a DM, only rarely, it's something quite special that not everyone has access to. Of course you may want it to be as common as say, sorcery, and then it becomes an entire different thing. It may be a well known phenomenon, the PC's may find one in every town square, they may find documentation on the life of Faerûn's psionic heroes, they may come across a society that wishes to kill everyone who finds out about psionics, etcetera. It's not very difficult adding it to the FR, especially with the Expanded Psionics Handbook, which I believe is a lot more understandable than the 3.0 psionics book. The Player'S Guide to Faerûn, like Cunning Linguist pointed out, also has good ideas on how to implement psionics into the FR.
Faraer 07-15-04, 10:58 AM	Who needs to add psionics to the Realms? It's probably been there (as a rarity) since 1978 when the Dungeon Master's Guide came out. The whole distinguishing point of the Invisible Art is that it's not magic and it's independent of the Weave. Then there's all the back and forth AD&D and the new 3E have done with psionics, which needn't concern us.
ClobberinTime 07-15-04, 01:22 PM	Yes, I agree and in the hands of secret Cabals of psionicists who roam the planes and faerun too, passing it back and forth since 1978.
J. Grenemyer 07-15-04, 04:36 PM	Hello ClobberinTime, Originally posted by ClobberinTime Have any of you tried to add psionics to the FR. I think you mean “emphasize” psionics? As in make it as “common” as magic? Ifso, I haven’t tried that hard to do such in my FR campaign (especially since I hated psionics prior to 3E). However, I have found the Psionics Handbook and the revised Psionics Handbook make for excellent additions to the DnD game as a whole. Further, recent FR sourcebooks (such as Underdark and the somewhat older Lords of Darkness) provide a plethora of Realms-specific regions and groups that use psionics, making it easy for DMs and players to incorporate the concept into the game. Given my own players interest in psionics, it was only a matter of time before one of them asked if they could run a psion. So I guess what I’m saying is I do use psionics in my campaign (in the form of creatures and evil societies for the players to face) and allow my players to run psions. But I don’t overemphasize the Invisible Art. :D
ClobberinTime 07-15-04, 04:47 PM	I like the rarity of it, I had realized it existed in the FRs, just like you said though under emphasized. So let me ask some questions then. I guess this was really what I was getting at- 1, Since it is so rare- Would you make your PCs roleplay out their introduction to the psionic disciplines through role playing, finding a teacher etc...This makes sense and could add alot of hooks. And it would make the PCs rather exotic and unusual. 2, It would be assumed that Psions would often be mistaken for weave users, and they might often have a tactical advantage because many opponents wouldn't be expecting some of the powers. 3, What good organizations might have psions aiding them/actively participating. Even though they are not good the Church of Eldath and maybe even ilmater seem to make sense to me. 4, Would powerful weave users be suspicious, or would they react like Vanderghast in RoAWs and simply say they are inferior (although apparently he believes anyone but Wizards are inferior, but that is for another day).
J. Grenemyer 07-15-04, 05:20 PM	Hello CT, Originally posted by ClobberinTime 1, Since it is so rare- Would you make your PCs roleplay out their introduction to the psionic disciplines through role playing, finding a teacher etc...This makes sense and could add a lot of hooks. And it would make the PCs rather exotic and unusual. It depends on whether you (as DM) have set your campaign in a location where there are such teachers, and whether or not you want to take advantage of this to build adventure hooks around. In my campaign, there is one Psion in the group (a cohort, not a character) that is run by one of the PC Wizards. Originally a native of Unther, she is nonetheless a refugee twice over; first for having to flee her homeland when it fell to Mulhorand and second because of the depredations against mages by House Karanok of Luthcheq in Chessenta. Her powers manifested as a purely mental defense against the horrors she witnessed as a child (such as her mother’s immolation and murder by members of House Karanok). Because of this her journey to power has been a singular effort, without aid of teachers. Although due to her land of origin she is considered somewhat exotic (by Cormyrean standards, at any rate). Originally posted by ClobberinTime 2, It would be assumed that Psions would often be mistaken for weave users, and they might often have a tactical advantage because many opponents wouldn't be expecting some of the powers. This is true in my game, although the Psion (as a cohort/secondary character) does not often get the chance to “trick” enemy weave users, as such enemies must already contend with the two Wizards in the group. Originally posted by ClobberinTime 3, What good organizations might have psions aiding them/actively participating. Even though they are not good the Church of Eldath and maybe even Ilmater seem to make sense to me. I’ve never considered this, myself. I guess ‘cause I’d always assumed there wouldn’t be any psions aiding such organizations due to their rarity. I definitely agree that the church of Ilmater might include Psions, as their powers leave them open to persecution and could drive them to seclusion (itself a form of suffering). I daresay the Harpers would include Psions as well. But beyond that…? Originally posted by ClobberinTime 4, Would powerful weave users be suspicious, or would they react like Vanderghast in RoAWs and simply say they are inferior (although apparently he believes anyone but Wizards are inferior, but that is for another day). Not only suspicious, but ready to slay on sight! After all, countless are the selfish and afraid-of-what-they-don’t-understand-or-can’t-control Weave users, who’d take pains in an instant to slay a potential rival who could easily slay with but a simple act of will. Lots of potential for adventure hooks and campaign-length enemies because of this. Good gaming! :D
Cunning Linguist 07-15-04, 05:33 PM	Not only suspicious, but ready to slay on sight! After all, countless are the selfish and afraid-of-what-they-don’t-understand-or-can’t-control Weave users, who’d take pains in an instant to slay a potential rival who could easily slay with but a simple act of will. Lots of potential for adventure hooks and campaign-length enemies because of this. This is really one of the biggest reasons why I don't allow players to use psions, and I don't use them as much myself. (I have had a psion creature here and there, but never in combat) My first fear came when I was browsing the Min/maxer forums, and almost all builds had a psion class in there. If every powerbuild has it, then it can't be a good thing. The second fear came from when a friend of mine talked about his awsome character, who had several levels as a multiclassed monk/psion and did just to much damange each round.
J. Grenemyer 07-15-04, 05:46 PM	Hello CL, Slightly off topic: Originally posted by Cunning Linguist This is really one of the biggest reasons why I don't allow players to use psions, and I don't use them as much myself. <SNIP> My first fear came when I was browsing the Min/maxer forums… <SNIP> The second fear came from when a friend of mine talked about his awesome character… In my experience the rules for psionics just aren’t broken. Now my players aren’t min maxers –they spend as much time roleplaying and thinking about their character’s back stories and how to fit it within the Realms as they do mechanics– but they do think about mechanics, a lot. That said, the Psionics rules (and the revised rules) don’t make for a broken or unbalanced game, in my experience. In fact, they only serve to create more roleplaying opportunities (for DMs as much as players), keep things interesting by enhancing the suspension of disbelief and overall make the game more fun. After using the Revised Psionics Handbook rules fully for the first time last week, the psion player said (verbatim), “I like the new psionics rules a lot. I feel like my cohort can do more to contribute now!” If my players are happy, I’m pretty much happy too. Psionics are worth a shot (especially since much of the revised rules are available for free from the SRD online!) :D
dragonheart 07-18-04, 10:51 PM	I have several psionic characters in my games and using the revised psionics handbook seems to work well ( so far). One interesting twist based on the PGtF seems to be that while dispels, and antimagic spells/rays etc will shut down psionic powers they would in fact actually be possible and work in a dead magic area. Some how I can just see a very bewildered beholder who thinks he has you cause your in his eye ray and in a dead magic spot and then you nail him with some sort of richochet energy blast :D
Alac Luin 07-18-04, 11:15 PM	Originally posted by dragonheart Some how I can just see a very bewildered beholder who thinks he has you cause your in his eye ray and in a dead magic spot and then you nail him with some sort of richochet energy blast :D This depends on which rules you are using. The Beholder's anti magic ray is like an AMF, so if you use the default run on combining magic and psionics as per XPH pg 55 rules, psionics will be negated. If you use the Variant rule (XPH pg 65) , this would work.
Psionycx 07-18-04, 11:26 PM	R.A. Salvatore has brought up psionics in several of his novels (and in 2E Cadderly's game stats revealed that his telepathic activities were psionic in nature rather than clerical spellcasting). Magic is so pervasive and varried in the Realms that in and of itself psionics will not raise too many eyebrows. Such "internal magical powers" will be different, but probably not utterly shocking. Most people barely understand how wizards do what it is they do so the fact that psions are doing something differently is going to be mostly a semantic argument. Illithids and Duergar are, of course, big users of psionics and people who have encountered either race will not be surprised by such powers. More knowledgeable wizards, clerics and sages are also likely to be at least peripherally familiar with psionics (Cadderly, a cleric of Deneir, knew about psionics even before he was Chosen and acquired psionic powers). Psionic groups will likely be in existence but keep a low profile. Unlike sorcerors, psions do benefit significantly from shared training. Unlike wizards, however, psions don't have an urge to kill each other to get their hands on each other's spellbooks. Groups of psions and psychic warriors may be mistaken for clerics or monks by the uninformed. Psionics can also be useful for character concepts where a character has strange powers that they don't know where they come from.
Alac Luin 07-18-04, 11:41 PM	Originally posted by Psionycx R.A. Salvatore has brought up psionics in several of his novels (and in 2E Cadderly's game stats revealed that his telepathic activities were psionic in nature rather than clerical spellcasting). Do you remember where Cadderly was stated as a Psionisist? I will say, that was the impression I had of him from the first time he used his powers, all the way to the end of the series when he built the Spirit Soaring. To this day, even during the time I ignored psionics completely, have been maintaining he used psionics.
Psionycx 07-19-04, 12:03 AM	It's in his stats in the Heroes Lorebook from 2E. He's not a psionicist. But part of his Chosen of Deneir powers was access to all psionic powers from the Telepathy discipline.
Votan 07-19-04, 12:45 AM	Originally posted by ClobberinTime 1, Since it is so rare- Would you make your PCs roleplay out their introduction to the psionic disciplines through role playing, finding a teacher etc...This makes sense and could add alot of hooks. And it would make the PCs rather exotic and unusual. I have a psion in a game currently and he is quite balanced. That being said, in a FR game I would be reluctant to allow a psion unless there was a carefully developed background simply because of the lack of good training options. But I would never have a problem with a wilder (who plays more like I'd like tos ee a sorcerer play than sorcerer's do). A wild psionic user is a perfectly viable concept that does not require training.
Ssussunriyh 07-19-04, 12:59 AM	It was stated in more than one source that during the Time of Troubles, when magic went haywire, psionics were unaffected (or at least, much less affected than magic.)
Another Gnome 07-19-04, 05:43 AM	And the same sources say that after magic returned to normal, psionics went haywire.
Psionycx 07-19-04, 09:17 AM	The laws of metaphysics had changed. Since psionics didn't depend on the Weave they weren't affected by Mystra's descent from godhood. But when the conflict was over the reshuffling of the pantheon affected the natural laws of the cosmos and psionics users had to modify the methodology through which they channelled energy. Some, like the illithids, figured this out almost immediately. Others took longer.
dragonheart 07-19-04, 10:29 AM	This depends on which rules you are using. true I was actually looking at the description in PGtF not the two possibilities from the XPH. there they say that psionics is not weave based but is affected by targeted spells adn powers - sort of a semitransparnency ( translucency?:) ) which is what lead to my image. the dead magic area would nullify the beholder's antimagic ray (and other rays) so the psion could still manifest. If he aimed the psionic equavalent of a lightning bolt properly at a wall or roof (so that it nevers enters the antimagic ray area) it would bounce and nail the beholder who would be very surprised I would think. again special circumstances and really creative power management.
dragonheart 07-19-04, 10:29 AM	[double post :(
Alac Luin 07-19-04, 06:32 PM	Originally posted by dragonheart ... the dead magic area would nullify the beholder's antimagic ray (and other rays) so the psion could still manifest. If he aimed the psionic equavalent of a lightning bolt properly at a wall or roof (so that it nevers enters the antimagic ray area) it would bounce and nail the beholder who would be very surprised I would think.... I gotcha now. I wasin't thinking when I posted earlyer. since the Beholders anti-magic eye is nulified by the dead magic zone, the psion would not have to bounce anything off annything, he could just jam it down the beholders throat, well, if it had one. :) I will say, I sort of miss labeled one of the two opptions earlier, the first option in the XPH is the defoult for Faerun.
dragonheart 07-22-04, 05:19 PM	well the dead magic circle negates the antimagic ray - in its area but once teh bolt leaves the area it would be affected by the ray so you still need to bounce it.
Alac Luin 07-22-04, 06:41 PM	I was thinking since most Faerun Dead magic zones are rather large, granted, this is't always the case, but Myth Drannor has one that covers the intire Throne of Shandakul. IIRC the Beholderes ability to float was an Extraordinary power and would not be effected by the dead magic area (hope this doesen't start another debate;) ) Both these ideas, I assumed the beholder was within the said dead magic zone.
dragonheart 07-23-04, 11:11 AM	yeah if the beholder was inside teh area it would be easy. I was assuming it was outside so it could/would try to use the eyes.
ClobberinTime 07-23-04, 01:52 PM	Now not to be too cynical but how many of us have ever really run into a beholder on the edge of a dead magic area, and if you do I agree the psionicist would be in good shape.
ClobberinTime 07-23-04, 01:54 PM	I do want to add one thing though, the war mind prestige class is great. You get barbarian like abilities and psionic powers that act like fighter feats, this could be an absolutely killer combination with paladin (yes of torm in the FR) levels.
dragonheart 07-24-04, 10:26 AM	Now not to be too cynical but how many of us have ever really run into a beholder on the edge of a dead magic area, oh agreed it was just this mental image I had of a beholder with eyes ablaze and an absolutely stupified look about him as his "victim" had just nailed him despite all the beholder's powers.:D
Cunning Linguist 07-24-04, 10:35 AM	Well, if I was the DM who played the beholder he'd gain a spontan Shadow Weave Feat.. Like to see how the look on the players face when he's great Dead Magic Zone plane failed..
Cthulhu 07-24-04, 11:51 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Well, if I was the DM who played the beholder he'd gain a spontan Shadow Weave Feat.. Like to see how the look on the players face when he's great Dead Magic Zone plane failed.. The look would probably be disgust. Nobody likes to have a great plan or opportunity unfairly ruined by a DM who couldn't handle a situation he set up in the first place. Why the heck would you bring a Dead Magic Zone into the game if you don't want your players taking advantage of it? Its not a circumstance that a PC psionic can control you know!
Cunning Linguist 07-24-04, 12:36 PM	I would use dead magic areas in connection with small communities with Shadow Adapts. I never bring anything into my game to give the players such a great weapon that nothing can stop them. Thats like giving them the Scepter of the Sorcereking and then asking them where they wanted to go next. Why would a beholder hang around a dead magic area unless he knew his magic still worked in there? Monster all to often know the area far better then the PC's, and a beholder living close to a dead magic area would try to get ahold of some magic that let him use his abilities inside it. Shadow Weave is this type of magic.
Cthulhu 07-25-04, 03:51 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist I would use dead magic areas in connection with small communities with Shadow Adapts. I never bring anything into my game to give the players such a great weapon that nothing can stop them. Thats like giving them the Scepter of the Sorcereking and then asking them where they wanted to go next. Why are you equating a Dead Magic Zone with a "great weapon"? Its nothing of the sort. Its a terrain feature, like a river, a cliff, a mountain, or whatever, that in certain lucky circumstances some people will be able to use to their advantage. Why would a beholder hang around a dead magic area unless he knew his magic still worked in there? Monster all to often know the area far better then the PC's, and a beholder living close to a dead magic area would try to get ahold of some magic that let him use his abilities inside it. Shadow Weave is this type of magic. Thats one way to deal with DMZ's, but its not the only one. The beholder could simply have a lair he likes near a DMZ, but doesn't care one way or the other about it. The beholder uses the DMZ to keep his more dangerous magical prisoners harmless (and uses minions to deal with them inside the DMZ). The beholder is fond of luring magical enemies into DMZs where his minions can deal with them at leisure. The beholder is fascinated by the DMZ and its effects on the Weave and studies it. The beholder uses the DMZ to safely store his more dangerously unstable magic experiments. None of these require that the beholder have the Shadow Weave feat simply for living next to a DMZ. These even show a number of reasons why a Weave beholder would show interest in DMZs. And really the "Why?" of the beholder's presence is beside the point in the psionic example. The beholder was just manipulated or unlucky enough to be caught in a DMZ during a vulnerable moment. The beholder would be equally screwed if his opponent was a Shadow Weave sorcerer instead of a psion. Nuff said.
Cunning Linguist 07-25-04, 07:51 AM	Well, I would never play a Beholder with such a low int score. He knows it there, and he would never ever fall for such a simple trick as "I'm standing 5 feet inside the dead magic area, so the beholder can't shoot his eyerays on me, while I blast him with my uber powers" This creature is known to be one of the smartest creatures out there, if he fell for something like this it would be more like a like a death tyrrant then a beholder.
Cthulhu 07-25-04, 01:46 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Well, I would never play a Beholder with such a low int score. He knows it there, and he would never ever fall for such a simple trick as "I'm standing 5 feet inside the dead magic area, so the beholder can't shoot his eyerays on me, while I blast him with my uber powers" This creature is known to be one of the smartest creatures out there, if he fell for something like this it would be more like a like a death tyrrant then a beholder. Your right. While a beholder can be tricked or trapped like this initially they will quickly try to figure a way to turn the battle back in his favor or escape. A beholder wouldn't stupidly allow these unfavorable circumstances to continue if it could help it. This is a far better way to handle the situation than spontaneously granting a beholder the SW feat so the DM can avoid thinking about tactics or as a way to punish psions/SW users for using the circumstances given to them.