Post/Author/DateTime	Post
awaken_D_M_golem 01-27-07, 04:04 PM	... { talk about a summon monster link } ... Complete Psionic says : XPH is Core. Complete Divine says : Bahamut , Kurtulmak , Lolth and Tiamat are Core. ... and now the little module The Twilight Tomb says : Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is Core. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! more discussion of these glorious events is here : Linky!
Lord Karsus 01-27-07, 11:57 PM	-Things can exist in Core D&D and the Forgotten Realms simultaneously. In 2e, the cosmology was linked, meaning that the Realms were connected with Grayhawk, Dragonlance, and so on. -Anyway, this means that deities like Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, Corellon Larethian, Garl Glittergold, and a host of others can exist in Realmspace and Grayspace. Of course, in 3e, the cosmology was changed for no reason, but it is best to simply ignore those changes. Most of us do. -Psionics exist in the Realms, just like they do in other Crystal Spheres. Don't know why, but they just do. -And, for all FR adventures, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is considered a core product, since you need it to play a FR campaign. -Did I cover everything? :)
Shemeska the Marauder 01-28-07, 02:26 AM	What Karsus said :)
awaken_D_M_golem 01-28-07, 03:41 PM	thanks for the replies Shemmy and L'Karsus I was only trying to be slightly inflamatory with the power word : core. It is interesting that Dragons/Power of Faerun merely list the 'use with these wotc products' clause. But ... The Twilight Tomb trots out the more significant descriptor. Perhaps its "far realm(s) of insanity - earth" -ed -ly connected to your rumor'd departure ? by the way , doesn't a marvel/dc -esque continuity problem make all our lives more interesting and agitated ? note to self(s) - Shemmy is not leaving , though he might due to my colloquialisms. ;)
Red_Wizard 01-28-07, 04:48 PM	Complete Psionic says : XPH is Core. Complete Divine says : Bahamut , Kurtulmak , Lolth and Tiamat are Core. ... and now the little module The Twilight Tomb says : Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is Core. -Things can exist in Core D&D and the Forgotten Realms simultaneously. In 2e, the cosmology was linked, meaning that the Realms were connected with Grayhawk, Dragonlance, and so on. -Anyway, this means that deities like Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, Corellon Larethian, Garl Glittergold, and a host of others can exist in Realmspace and Grayspace. Of course, in 3e, the cosmology was changed for no reason, but it is best to simply ignore those changes. Most of us do. Alot of the time they can exist simultaneously in two cosmologies, as the Deity has split between the two, and now maintains little to no contact with its other percentage. A good example of this is Lolth. She isn't the same lolth as the one from Greyhawk, and whether or not their power is even connected anymore was put in question, when this was brought up before.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-28-07, 05:10 PM	Alot of the time they can exist simultaneously in two cosmologies, as the Deity has split between the two, and now maintains little to no contact with its other percentage. A good example of this is Lolth. She isn't the same lolth as the one from Greyhawk, and whether or not their power is even connected anymore was put in question, when this was brought up before. Depends on your perspective since them being seperate beings is a retroactive claim of the 3e FR cosmology. Previous to that point within D&D planar lore and Realmslore alike, it was the same Lolth worshipped on multiple worlds, with local variations in how much power she could manifest, and how worshippers there viewed her (thus impacting her ability to manifest, or how she would choose to manifest). On the planes at large it was one being on the 66th layer of the Abyss. The 3e FR material has never made an in-game explanation for the sudden changes in perspective, even when gods are acknowledged interlopers.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-29-07, 08:42 AM	The idea of them being part of a single cosmology was something that wasn't really codified until 2E to begin with, and then it was only for the sake of trying to push Planescape. Way back in its original inception, the FR was assumed to have its own cosmology; 3E brought that concept back.
Darakhoranon 01-29-07, 09:06 AM	Just to muddy the waters: On the Eberron boards is a thread with a map pieced together from (nearly) all D&D worlds - even most of the "dead" ones are included... Apart from a few continuity problems which can be explained away without too much trouble, it looks really great - and by tackling said problems, the whole "cosmology problem" gets disintegrated as well. Sure, itīs not canon, but it LOOKS really great...
SLJ 01-29-07, 09:21 AM	Of course, in 3e, the cosmology was changed for no reason, but it is best to simply ignore those changes. Most of us do. Very well said.
Lord Karsus 01-29-07, 10:38 AM	Apart from a few continuity problems which can be explained away without too much trouble, it looks really great - and by tackling said problems, the whole "cosmology problem" gets disintegrated as well. Sure, itīs not canon, but it LOOKS really great... -Yeah? Could you kindly provide a link, as I couldn't find it when I quickly scanned the Eberron threads.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-29-07, 10:56 AM	The idea of them being part of a single cosmology was something that wasn't really codified until 2E to begin with, and then it was only for the sake of trying to push Planescape. That's incedibly incorrect. There was indeed a unified cosmology in 1e. Some of it may have been implied in the earliest products, because the cosmology was still developing at that point, but at the very latest the 1e Manual of the Planes made it ironbound as an idea, and that carried on into 2e, years before Planescape was even a twinkle in its designers' eyes. The 1e FR 'Throne of Bloodstone' modules (for all their faults) placed FR smack in the middle of the planes of the Great Wheel. Way back in its original inception, the FR was assumed to have its own cosmology; 3E brought that concept back. No. No it didn't. Ever since it saw print it was part of the Great Wheel cosmology. Ed Greenwood's home game before TSR got involved seems to have had something very different, but TSR didn't use that (and in part couldn't because certain portions of it too closely resembled Narnia's Wood Between the Worlds, but we don't know too much about that material to be honest because it never made it into the published Realms). But Ed's home game doesn't matter if we're talking the published Realms, which was integrated into the Great Wheel since the start.
GothicDan 01-29-07, 04:01 PM	Way back in its original inception, the FR was assumed to have its own cosmology; 3E brought that concept back. And in one of Ed's replies, he said he never intended FR to have a separate cosmology. His original was a rough emulation of The Wood Between the Worlds... Which is pretty much equivalent in most ways to the Astral Plane, anyway.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-29-07, 04:13 PM	gotta love it when i'm all set for a dust up and my thread gets jacked toward D&D history. My theory is : occasionally the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Vacuum busts out and messes things up. Not just cosmology , but 'precipitate complete breach' all the way to the designer's data storage. I mean , almost everybody here has their 2 ranks in Un-illiterate-izing Barbarianisms. @ Darakhoranon : I'll second the Lord Karsus motion , about the super map link. pretty please :bigeyes:
Red_Wizard 01-29-07, 04:47 PM	The word Illiterate means "Not Literate". Thus, your word "Un-illiterate" Would mean Literate once more, as it is a double negitive. So you're saying either we all have two ranks in talking perfectly, or you yourself have inadvertently fallen victim to your own opinion that we all post like illiterate barbarians. ;)
awaken_D_M_golem 01-30-07, 07:00 PM	ack , I trotted out some post-modernism on the parallel thread , but now Red Wiz needs me to spell out a joke that obviously didn't work as intended ... need = summons on the far realm(s) of insanity - internet I might want the 2 ranks to be 'literate' , but I'd still need the proper training time and equipment and trainer hence my accidental intentional misusage of Common ( dialect Forgotten Realms-ian ). @ Darakhoranon : better still , just get the location and title and I'll link it. @ Shemmy ( my fingers are tired ) - ahh ... Throne of Bloodstone ... isn't playing 'chess' in the abyss , a form of hell ? In which case , isn't Throne of Bloodstone the accidental cause of all D&D continuity problems ? Or maybe just the reason why the Yuogoloths migrated to Gehenna , sort-of ...
Shemeska the Marauder 01-30-07, 08:15 PM	@ Shemmy ( my fingers are tired ) - ahh ... Throne of Bloodstone ... isn't playing 'chess' in the abyss , a form of hell ? In which case , isn't Throne of Bloodstone the accidental cause of all D&D continuity problems ? Nah, but I think we can happily blame Throne of Bloodstone for any problems anyone has ever had with that edition of the game. It's like an unwilling sineater for the entirety of 1e in that it's so bad that everything else gets a free pass. Dungeon crawl plus random, goofy, over the top material = ugg. I mean come on, it had a chain smoking Solar with a texan accent living in a celestial fortress called El Amo... :doh:
Lord Karsus 01-30-07, 11:50 PM	I mean come on, it had a chain smoking Solar with a texan accent living in a celestial fortress called El Amo... :doh: :ahem: -That's just...That's just...That's just sad!
awaken_D_M_golem 02-03-07, 03:35 PM	Well , thanks to the silence spell cast on Darakhoranon ;) , I "lookied" for some cosmology pictures. And I found a couple of good ones , thanks to Tempest Stormwind accidentally doing the work for me. Realms Linky (http://www.telusplanet.net/~sdupuis/Tempest/Realms%20Cosmology.JPG) eberron linky (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/Eberron_Cosmology_lg.jpg) my personality parasite says pretty pictures ... Speaking of cosmology and biffs , the Complete Divine quote wasn't complete. It actually says : Core D&D Gods ... Bahamut , Kurtulmak , Lolth , Tiamat ... four new additions to the core pantheon so , the word in doubt there is : NEW When in 1E , 2E , 3E , 3.5E , Old-old , did B K L T become new ?
MarkusTay63 02-03-07, 04:06 PM	Core D&D Gods ... Bahamut , Kurtulmak , Lolth , Tiamat ... four new additions to the core pantheon so , the word in doubt there is : NEW When in 1E , 2E , 3E , 3.5E , Old-old , did B K L T become new ?Actually, I think they preceeded D&D with the Chainmail rules. Gary Gygax was at a frat party, and noticed off in one of the side hallways a tiny room with an alter. He noticed someone kneeling in front of the shrine, obviously in prayer - "BAH-amut... KUR-tu-lmak... Lolth... TIA-met..." He quickly ran home and invented D&D. Little did he know said person was really vomitting into a toilet. ;) BTW- on a serious note, the name 'Tiamet' is a few thousand years old. 'Bahamut' was invented for D&D as her polar opposite. What I find VERY interesting is that scholars have played with the notion for some years now that the creature in the bible, the Leviathan, is actually the same as Tiamet and is a 'bastardized' spelling of the Babylonian. So, does that mean that 'Bahamut' is in fact the Gygax version of 'Behemmoth', the other 'great creature' from Judaeo-Christian folklore? Food for thought. EDIT:I was just over at the Enworld boards, figuring Darakhoranan must have meant a non-WotC board. I just looked through five threads with related keywords (cosmology, Eberron, FR, GH, etc) but it was VERY time consuming, but something tells me that is where it would be given some of the other stuff I read about blending Cosmologies. I'm mostly just a lurker over there, but Shem is a regular so maybe if she remembers one?