Question about Worship of Evil Gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question about Worship of Evil Gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aesyka the Forlorn
06-04-04, 01:40 PM I'm running a game where a Maiden of Pain is attempting to create a temple to Loviatar along the Sword Coast. Given that this isn't a region where worship of Loviatar is "listed," per se, I've been pondering how she proceeds, and that's lead to some questions. Any answers would be appreciated.

For deities like Loviatar and Talona and Umberlee, deities that are identified as evil, is worship and veneration hidden, say, as it is in the case of Cyric? Is it technically illegal?

Does this NPC need to hide her agenda, or is it plausible that she would be more open about it--after all, telling your average peasant that "life is suffering" isn't likely to garner much disagreement, is it? It would seem to me that, at least in Loviatar's case, the more "palatable" aspects of her worship might be very appealing to a lot of people.

If there's a rule or citation anyone can direct me to, that would be appreciated, as well.

Thanks!
ender
06-04-04, 05:58 PM It depends entirely upon where you are trying to build your temple. It also depends on what deity, and what sorts of activities the clergy plan on engaging in.

For example, many coastal cities have large temples to Umberlee, even though she is an evil goddess, simply because her clergy go there to pray for safe voyages, and so on and so forth.

Evil or chaotic cities (Luskan, for example) would probably allow anything, pending approval of the Big Cheeses (high captains or whathaveyou).

For good or neutral cities... it depends largely upon the circumstances. Waterdeep, for example, is extremely tolerant, and shouldn't have a problem with a temple to Lovitar unless you start kidnapping and torturing people or things like that.

Isolated temples, built in the wilderness, would be beholden to no one. If you're building a temple in an unsettled area then you would only have problems from wandering monsters, and perhaps crusading paladins on a bender.

So... it depends. :) Sorry I couldn't give you a more concrete answer. There are no rules regarding such things, its really a matter of what's appropriate for the character, player, DM, and campaign.
Sarta
06-04-04, 09:28 PM I'd recommend that she get into the festhall business.

An exclusive festhall or "gentlemen's club" catering to the jaded and wealthy would be a good front for such a temple hidden in the basement. If her employees are in on the operation, they should be able to identify potential worshippers that can be privately asked to come to "services". Many of these recruits will know of others who may be interested. She may also learn of worshippers in this region through her church.

If done well, the temple will be defended by the local law. Toppling such a temple becomes a tricky matter because exposing it will likely ruin those who attended the festhall on a regular basis -- even those who were in the dark regarding the true nature of the place.

Sarta
Ssussunriyh
06-04-04, 11:46 PM The worship of evil deities who control storms, bad luck, and other events that are just accepted aspects of everyday life and can happen to anyone (such as Umberlee, Talos, Auril, and Beshaba) is more in the nature of appeasement, i.e., "Accept this sacrifice, and please leave me alone." In this sense, open worship is perfectly acceptable.

The gods themselves don't much care about the way they're worshipped. Their divine power is derived from the number and devotion of their worshippers. For most, recognition is all that matters, whether it's out of love, respect, or fear.
Bloodtide_the_Red
06-05-04, 02:47 AM .........For deities like Loviatar and Talona and Umberlee, deities that are identified as evil, is worship and veneration hidden, say, as it is in the case of Cyric? Is it technically illegal?
Depends on where. 3E is not much help here as you don't find much listed about each city/country in FRCS. You should not that 'listed regions' in the FRCS should be taken as a rough guideline. Example, both Dambrath and Amn have huge followings of Loviatar..but they forgot that on the table.
Generaly good cities outlaw worship of evil gods, evil ones worship them naturaly, the the rest of the neutral cities just walk the fine line of keeping everyone happy.

........If there's a rule or citation anyone can direct me to, that would be appreciated, as well.
This is not crunch rule stuff....this is all fluff.

BT
Alac Luin
06-05-04, 08:19 PM as a note, here are some Loviator temples already known...

Black Spires of the Maiden (Vale of Wailing Women, Amn)
Painbliss Hall (Westgate)
The Fall of Stars (Harrowdale Town)
The High House of Hurting (Mulmaster)
The House of Nine Blessings (Calimport)
The House of the Lash (Harrowdale Town)
The House of the Scarlet Hooks (Calaunt)
The Palace of Sweet Pain (Zhentil Keep)
The Resting Place of the Whip (Melvaunt)
The Tower of Seven Woes (Skullport)
Monastery of Loviatar (Nether Mountains

I think most cities would not find worship of Loviator illegal, but if the priestesses went around whipping everyone that walked by, well that would be frowned at.
As long as worship was restricted to the willing, few places would really have an issue.
The worship could be expanded to the unwilling as long as it was kept secret from the authorities, or to things that the authorities don't care about.
(so what, those leather clad priestesses are whipping goblins? we should interfere why?)
Unwilling humans, elves etc would get more interest.
Sarta
06-05-04, 08:38 PM The problem with Loviator temples being completely in the open isn't just the unwillingness of victims, but also society's opinion of such alternative lifestyles.

Many who practice these sorts of lifestyles don't really want to advertise it. They are afraid of what friends, family, and co-workers may say. Were it to be discovered, they would most likely be shunned and lose favor in their secular lives.

It is why I suggested using an exclusive club to serve as a front for the temple.

However, there are some regions where such lifestyles are more accepted. For the most part, these are cities or kingdoms that are evil in alignment. On the Dragon Coast however, I'd imagine that it is far less acceptable.

Sarta

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aesyka the Forlorn 06-04-04, 01:40 PM	I'm running a game where a Maiden of Pain is attempting to create a temple to Loviatar along the Sword Coast. Given that this isn't a region where worship of Loviatar is "listed," per se, I've been pondering how she proceeds, and that's lead to some questions. Any answers would be appreciated. For deities like Loviatar and Talona and Umberlee, deities that are identified as evil, is worship and veneration hidden, say, as it is in the case of Cyric? Is it technically illegal? Does this NPC need to hide her agenda, or is it plausible that she would be more open about it--after all, telling your average peasant that "life is suffering" isn't likely to garner much disagreement, is it? It would seem to me that, at least in Loviatar's case, the more "palatable" aspects of her worship might be very appealing to a lot of people. If there's a rule or citation anyone can direct me to, that would be appreciated, as well. Thanks!
ender 06-04-04, 05:58 PM	It depends entirely upon where you are trying to build your temple. It also depends on what deity, and what sorts of activities the clergy plan on engaging in. For example, many coastal cities have large temples to Umberlee, even though she is an evil goddess, simply because her clergy go there to pray for safe voyages, and so on and so forth. Evil or chaotic cities (Luskan, for example) would probably allow anything, pending approval of the Big Cheeses (high captains or whathaveyou). For good or neutral cities... it depends largely upon the circumstances. Waterdeep, for example, is extremely tolerant, and shouldn't have a problem with a temple to Lovitar unless you start kidnapping and torturing people or things like that. Isolated temples, built in the wilderness, would be beholden to no one. If you're building a temple in an unsettled area then you would only have problems from wandering monsters, and perhaps crusading paladins on a bender. So... it depends. :) Sorry I couldn't give you a more concrete answer. There are no rules regarding such things, its really a matter of what's appropriate for the character, player, DM, and campaign.
Sarta 06-04-04, 09:28 PM	I'd recommend that she get into the festhall business. An exclusive festhall or "gentlemen's club" catering to the jaded and wealthy would be a good front for such a temple hidden in the basement. If her employees are in on the operation, they should be able to identify potential worshippers that can be privately asked to come to "services". Many of these recruits will know of others who may be interested. She may also learn of worshippers in this region through her church. If done well, the temple will be defended by the local law. Toppling such a temple becomes a tricky matter because exposing it will likely ruin those who attended the festhall on a regular basis -- even those who were in the dark regarding the true nature of the place. Sarta
Ssussunriyh 06-04-04, 11:46 PM	The worship of evil deities who control storms, bad luck, and other events that are just accepted aspects of everyday life and can happen to anyone (such as Umberlee, Talos, Auril, and Beshaba) is more in the nature of appeasement, i.e., "Accept this sacrifice, and please leave me alone." In this sense, open worship is perfectly acceptable. The gods themselves don't much care about the way they're worshipped. Their divine power is derived from the number and devotion of their worshippers. For most, recognition is all that matters, whether it's out of love, respect, or fear.
Bloodtide_the_Red 06-05-04, 02:47 AM	.........For deities like Loviatar and Talona and Umberlee, deities that are identified as evil, is worship and veneration hidden, say, as it is in the case of Cyric? Is it technically illegal? Depends on where. 3E is not much help here as you don't find much listed about each city/country in FRCS. You should not that 'listed regions' in the FRCS should be taken as a rough guideline. Example, both Dambrath and Amn have huge followings of Loviatar..but they forgot that on the table. Generaly good cities outlaw worship of evil gods, evil ones worship them naturaly, the the rest of the neutral cities just walk the fine line of keeping everyone happy. ........If there's a rule or citation anyone can direct me to, that would be appreciated, as well. This is not crunch rule stuff....this is all fluff. BT
Alac Luin 06-05-04, 08:19 PM	as a note, here are some Loviator temples already known... Black Spires of the Maiden (Vale of Wailing Women, Amn) Painbliss Hall (Westgate) The Fall of Stars (Harrowdale Town) The High House of Hurting (Mulmaster) The House of Nine Blessings (Calimport) The House of the Lash (Harrowdale Town) The House of the Scarlet Hooks (Calaunt) The Palace of Sweet Pain (Zhentil Keep) The Resting Place of the Whip (Melvaunt) The Tower of Seven Woes (Skullport) Monastery of Loviatar (Nether Mountains I think most cities would not find worship of Loviator illegal, but if the priestesses went around whipping everyone that walked by, well that would be frowned at. As long as worship was restricted to the willing, few places would really have an issue. The worship could be expanded to the unwilling as long as it was kept secret from the authorities, or to things that the authorities don't care about. (so what, those leather clad priestesses are whipping goblins? we should interfere why?) Unwilling humans, elves etc would get more interest.
Sarta 06-05-04, 08:38 PM	The problem with Loviator temples being completely in the open isn't just the unwillingness of victims, but also society's opinion of such alternative lifestyles. Many who practice these sorts of lifestyles don't really want to advertise it. They are afraid of what friends, family, and co-workers may say. Were it to be discovered, they would most likely be shunned and lose favor in their secular lives. It is why I suggested using an exclusive club to serve as a front for the temple. However, there are some regions where such lifestyles are more accepted. For the most part, these are cities or kingdoms that are evil in alignment. On the Dragon Coast however, I'd imagine that it is far less acceptable. Sarta