Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zerowolf2nd 09-22-07, 04:13 AM	Alright perusing these threads ive noticed something... You all seem to hate the Iconic characters of the realms and im curious as to why? I think iconic characters [Elminser anyone] adds flavor and interisting points to the realm. ALong with all the other High to mid level characters that are in the realms. So please explain to me why you hate the iconic characters.
Drew1369r 09-22-07, 06:46 AM	Because alot of people that hate them are old people "that remember back in the day when" I never used them in any of the campaigns I have run and when asked they are doing other things at the moment. And its not hate per say... just that the NPC's are changing the realms more then they like it
GothicDan 09-22-07, 12:01 PM	The old people? Uh. These NPCs that are most often hated have been around since 1E. What are you talking about? It's the NEWER players who tend to dislike the iconic NPCs.
Markustay 09-22-07, 02:18 PM	Because they stole my tricycle. :P
Alediran 09-22-07, 02:26 PM	I like all the characters, and I use them every time there is a logical explanation for their appearance. In the first session of chapter 2 from my current campaign the party was with alustriel in silveryoon and storm arrived with ill news from daggerdale and she told Alustriel that they needed a group of powerfull adventurers to deal with a problem (CotSQ) because they couldn't find a group that wanted to go to the underdark.
ikki 09-22-07, 02:47 PM	usually because the characters have been horribly misused by a lot pf people... having them steal the glory, fix the problems and so forth, just because the players blew it a bit. DM:s dont use threats to the world you arent willing to use.. ;) So it should be fine if this academy burns down or that noble gets assassinated.. but say waterdeep collapsing alltogether and the players failed to follow up a lead.... and then having El & Blackstaff show up blast the bad guys and take all the glory.
The Ubbergeek 09-22-07, 03:49 PM	The old people? Uh. These NPCs that are most often hated have been around since 1E. What are you talking about? It's the NEWER players who tend to dislike the iconic NPCs. Don't try to dodge the fact that many old-schoolers dislike them, and ended up playing Greyhawk and other worlds instead before or after the hate. Easy to simplyfy this as 'it's those darn kiddos and their l337ness'. The problem is older than that, - it started with the novels line. 1st, 2nd edition, as you know. We can't sidestep this issue like this, but correct a problem or find the best way to deal with the issue (which is the missconceptions OR the iconics in themselves, as one can see it).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-22-07, 10:30 PM	Alright perusing these threads ive noticed something... You all seem to hate the Iconic characters of the realms and im curious as to why? I think iconic characters [Elminser anyone] adds flavor and interisting points to the realm. ALong with all the other High to mid level characters that are in the realms. So please explain to me why you hate the iconic characters. "You all"? Excuse me, but I don't hate the "iconic" characters. I've defended characters such as Elminster and the Seven Sisters countless times here. And I'm not the only one on these boards who does so.
Lord Karsus 09-22-07, 10:53 PM	-Uh, I think that the majority of us here actually like the iconic characters (Elminster, the Seven Sisters, etc.), actually.
MarkusTay63 09-22-07, 11:06 PM	I like the old fart, but the wenches can take a powder. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-22-07, 11:33 PM	-Uh, I think that the majority of us here actually like the iconic characters (Elminster, the Seven Sisters, etc.), actually. I agree. A very loud (and frequently annoying) minority does not speak for everyone.
The Ubbergeek 09-23-07, 12:26 AM	I agree. A very loud (and frequently annoying) minority does not speak for everyone. but maybe there is a subjacent problem... or not.
Moraser_the_Magnificent 09-23-07, 01:07 AM	I'd never admit this to my friends, but even Drizz't isn't all that bad. And Greyhawk has it's icons as well, the Eight for example; The male version of the Seven Sisters. Dragonlance has it's icons as well from the Weiss and Hickman books. An icon by any other name is still the same. If anyone has read the books in the Realms like Making of a Mage, The Crystal Shard, Blackstaff, etc that focus on the icons then they generally don't have a grasp on why they are iconic. The portrayal of Elminster as a grumpy, womanizing, "I have the T-shirt" kinda guy is what made me fall in love with the character. The only thing that I think the Realms kinda misses out on is the Anti-Hero icon. I gotta show love to Corum and Elric.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-23-07, 01:23 AM	but maybe there is a subjacent problem... or not. Whatever "subjacent" means.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-23-07, 01:26 AM	The only thing that I think the Realms kinda misses out on is the Anti-Hero icon. I gotta show love to Corum and Elric. There's Erevis Cale. And Artemis Entreri, and Jarlaxle...and Elaith. But I think anti-heroes are overrated anyway--I'll take Elminster any day over some self-indulgent, naval-gazing whiner who complains constantly about how horrible his life is (that's how anti-heroes are often portrayed). Much to Paul Kemp's credit, Cale isn't portrayed like that, which is why I like him.
Moraser_the_Magnificent 09-23-07, 01:33 AM	I never considered Artemis and Jarlaxle Anti-Heroes. They were true heroes for tryin to pop a cap in Drizz'zt in my book :eek: and subjacent = lying nearby but lower I have no idea what he was talking about if that makes you feel any better.
The WarOverlord 09-23-07, 08:39 AM	Alright perusing these threads ive noticed something... You all seem to hate the Iconic characters of the realms and im curious as to why? I think iconic characters [Elminser anyone] adds flavor and interisting points to the realm. ALong with all the other High to mid level characters that are in the realms. So please explain to me why you hate the iconic characters. Pfft. This Eliminster is a old crackpot that lives in a Arsebackward backwater town that happens to have an entry to the Underdark nearby....lol In truth the Sisters and Eliminster are not known by the common people outside their local areas at worse and considered "Legends" at best like the Seven Sister's rhyme that kids chant when skipping rope. 1 SSI Game, Pools of Darkness had my Party dealing with him but I had no Idea who he was other then a "contact" for my PC until much Later Even with the Game "Baulder's Gate" this "old Man" was keep on showing up unexpectantly and asking my "Baahl Spawn" PC parculiar questions (And beyond him not attacking my PC, didn't matter much who he was) And no, I wasn't playing my PCs ignorant of the "Old Sage", at the time I really didn't know or care who he was.
Meldread 09-23-07, 10:53 AM	The problem that people have with these characters is not a problem with the characters themselves. It is a problem of flavor and an internal consistency with the world. The Realm's is filled with epic level characters both good and evil. When you fill a setting with these characters it begins to lose its internal consistency. It leads to serious problems, dues ex machina, and a shattering of believability in the setting. For example, let us say that goblins came together around an Obould type goblin figure in the Stonelands. A few portals were opened to other goblin heavy populated areas an those goblins brought to the Stonelands to pledge alliance to a goblin-king. This king intends to take Cormyr and it is up to your PCs to stop him and his massive army. A few questions quickly arise. Why isn’t Elminster helping? He’s busy. What about the Simbul? She’s busy. What about one of the other Seven Sisters? They are all busy. What about one of the other 9,000 other epic level wizards in the setting? Nope. Absolutely everyone is busy, it's up to you! Now, that might seem funny but when you think about it the moment an army of goblins amass and prepare to march and take over Cormyr here is what would likely happen. Word goes out to Mystra's Chosen. The Simbul hears word first because Elminster actually is busy doing something else. She reads the note, puts it away, goes to bed, wakes up the next morning and has breakfast. She teleports over to Cormyr and hurls a few spells. Those spells wipe out their entire force in under an hour. She then sends her regards to the country, teleports back to Aglarond giving herself a few hours before lunch to work on some other important duties. Problem solved. The problem is not with the characters themselves but the level of power that they possess. Over 95% of the Realm's is under level five with the vast majority being level one. When you have these epic level characters running around it is the equivalent of having a nuclear weapon on the lose. Nothing can stop them with the exception of another epic level character. This requires you to create another epic level character. Every time an epic level character is created another counter epic level character must also be created to keep the other in check. Eventually, you end up with a world filled with nuclear characters that are all aimed and pointed at each other. Entire nations could fall to a single one of these characters. Even non-epic characters can cripple if not destroy a nation. The power that they possess is so extraordinary and beyond what is possessed by the rest of the world that the internal consistency collapses. Why build a wall when you have so many wizards running around who can turn it to mud? Why fight over resources when you have the ability to access an endless supply through various magical means? How does an economy function with an endless supply of resources? How do local citizens react when that high level wizard shows up in their town and decides that he doesn't like someone so he kills them? Are you going to send the local militia and town guards to arrest him? Are you crazy? A few walls of stone to block the gates followed by a few fireballs and he can wipe out your entire town. Going to call for Adventures? Good luck I'm sure he -won't- see the notice you put out. Going to ask the Harpers for assistance? Too bad most of them are low level like the rest of the world. So on and so forth. Most of the epic level characters are found in novels. However, most of the people you hear complaining are playing D&D, so while those characters might be good in the novels they do not mesh well with the game system. However, they are turned into cannon as are their actions. They are responsible for all of the RSE's that get complained about, when you are dealing with such high level characters a RSE is unavoidable.
benking27 09-23-07, 01:19 PM	I absolutely agree that most of the "iconic" characters come from the novels, but if people hate them, they should keep that to themselves. That's their opinion. to eliminate the problem, don't read about the "iconic" character that you hate. problem solved
Zerowolf2nd 09-23-07, 06:55 PM	I appreciate everyone for posting here. In awnser to an underlying question im not trying to troll or anything else, i really did notice alot of people making these comments. Which i find odd because i feel that the iconic characters add flavor. And to awnser a previous post i feel that the epics dont do that sort of thing because the other epics may well stop them and their battle would cause some serious damage, and having a rather high int their both not stupid enough to do that. But anyway again i thank you all for your responses.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-24-07, 07:28 PM	I absolutely agree that most of the "iconic" characters come from the novels, but if people hate them, they should keep that to themselves. That's their opinion. to eliminate the problem, don't read about the "iconic" character that you hate. problem solved Well, this is a forum, and people who post here are free to talk about how much they dislike certain characters. No one posts here with the intention of keeping their thoughts to themselves. And that's coming from someone who loves many of these well-known characters. That having been said, I totally agree that no one is being forced to continue to read books about characters they hate, just as no one is forced to use them in an RPG game if they don't want those characters involved.
Karsus the Mad 09-24-07, 08:52 PM	Alright perusing these threads ive noticed something... You all seem to hate the Iconic characters of the realms and im curious as to why? I think iconic characters [Elminser anyone] adds flavor and interisting points to the realm. ALong with all the other High to mid level characters that are in the realms. So please explain to me why you hate the iconic characters. I'm rather fond of all iconic npcs. There's some that I dislike, but it's not that they're iconic. I simply don't like them as a character (ie: if they were real people and I met them, I'd dislike them.) but I still find them interesting (save for one...but I blame the novel portrayal that gives me the impression of 1-dimensional).
MerrikCale 09-24-07, 09:08 PM	Because they stole my tricycle. :P those bastards
johnkretzer 09-24-07, 09:20 PM	There is only one iconic NPC I dislike...and really it isn't even the character's fault it is the fan boys that make Drizzt annoying. I mean if you want to clear the high level NPCs so that they can't come in and save the day. If that is their goal I don't know why the didn't kill off Drizzt. In the games I know( not play in thank god) this character is the most likely to show up and save the day. There is even one really bad game where he is pretty much the DMs DMPC. Oh wait a minute he sells books. Well I guess that is ok as when a Drizzt fan boy ask me or tells me."I go and find Drizzt." I never get tired of their expression when I reply," Oh in my FR he got eaten by the cave fisher." The problem with the iconic character is bad DMs and bad players abuse them...getting rid of them won't change that behavoir. All it really does is **** off the competent DMs and competent players who know how to use them.
MerrikCale 09-24-07, 09:48 PM	There is only one iconic NPC I dislike. I bought the original 1e set back in '87 and I dislike more iconic characters then that
johnkretzer 09-24-07, 11:37 PM	I bought the original 1e set back in '87 and I dislike more iconic characters then that So did I. But if you read my post it isn't Drizzt I dislike it's his popularity.
MerrikCale 09-25-07, 10:45 PM	So did I. But if you read my post it isn't Drizzt I dislike it's his popularity. I understand that. I was more responding to the idea that us old-timers are more enamored with the Icons. That may be true, but some of us old-timers could do without, say, the Seven Sisters
johnkretzer 09-26-07, 12:31 AM	I understand that. I was more responding to the idea that us old-timers are more enamored with the Icons. That may be true, but some of us old-timers could do without, say, the Seven Sisters I love the seven sisters!!!! But sure their are icon characters I don't like...and usualy they die either gruesome deaths or heroics death in my FR. But I don't clamor on the boards or anyplace else for their deaths in the published FR...I wonder why people need to do so? I mean as a ton of people have been saying to me it is your game don't use the changes...why can't those people simply not use the NPCs or the Gods they don't like?
Dark Wizard 09-26-07, 12:53 AM	I wonder the same thing. Especially when the books tell you to change things to how you like; and even more importantly, the book gives reasons for why the iconics shouldn't teleport in to save the day to impinge on your games or your characters' heroics or villainy. I highly doubt the new FRCS 4E will give tips on how to ignore, undo, or minimize the Spellplague, the deicides, or the other changes to the setting because removing the changes invalidates that new book. Removing from your games the few iconic characters that personally bother you will not fundamentally change the setting, even if it does it will certainly not affect anyone other than your game group.
_Jarlaxle_ 09-26-07, 06:35 AM	I never considered Artemis and Jarlaxle Anti-Heroes. When I hear Anti-Hero I first think of Guybrush Threepwood :D I for myself like most of the Iconic characters
capnvan 09-26-07, 06:38 AM	In the games I know( not play in thank god) this character is the most likely to show up and save the day. There is even one really bad game where he is pretty much the DMs DMPC. I realize it's somewhat off-topic, but how does that even work? I'm not sure I understand the concept of an NPC coming in to "save the day," much less an "iconic" one. Do the players not understand the concept of retreat? Or are the DMs just so bad that they're constantly setting challenges that they can neither conquer nor escape? Do the DMs not understand that deus ex machina might have worked in ancient Greek drama but it's kind of cliched (and not fun) nowadays? Or are they just 13 years old? Seriously, I'm just really confused by the whole concept. It's completely outside of my conception.
Leon_Lionheart 09-26-07, 07:08 AM	I can certainly understand why some people would be annoyed by the sheer number of epic characters present. (Maybe this Spellplague stuff'll solve the problem, eh?) Still, the problem with the characters themselves is nonexistent. Drizzt, for example. He's badass, sure, but he's not a nuclear weapon with legs, he's just a chaingun with legs, if you take my meaning. He's also a pretty dang good character in and of himself. The only two things that really tend to annoy people are 1) his fame, and 2) the negative influence said fame has in games. (I've once heard it argued that he contradicted the flavor of the Realms merely by being a good drow, but such arguments draw little water, in my humble opinion.) Drizzt himself has little influence on the world he lives in--he goes on his own adventures, and adventurous adventures they are, but with the exception of recent books--the Obould arc, I mean--they never really had any massive effect on things, and even in those recent books the effect is more the fault of the opposing force than Drizzt himself. As epic, iconic characters go, Drizzt is okay. He's not overpowered (over-skilled though he may be). What saves Drizzt from being a detriment to the world he lives in is that he's not some uber-wizard, just some uber-swordsman. And uber-swordsmen are a good deal less powerful than uber-wizards. Case in point: if Drizzt and Elminster were to fight to the death, Drizzt would be so much ash on the floor within twelve seconds. Now, I'm no expert when it comes to the others of the Forgotten Realms mascot crew, but I can certainly see the problem that would result from having too many godlike spellcasters on the loose. I remember a scene in Passage to Dawn, where two wizards, Harkle Harpell and Robillard, have a sort of impromptu contest fighting against some undead things of little importance. It was an amusing scene, but the two made mincemeat of the things. And these are above-average spellcasters, sure, but not quite Elminster- or Khelben-level spellcasters. If these two can make slaughtering zombies look like sweeping the floor, than the uber-mages can make it look like vacuuming. Having too much of that is a problem. "When anything can happen, it's hard to care much what does." I think it was Jesus who said that...
Leon_Lionheart 09-26-07, 07:19 AM	I realize it's somewhat off-topic, but how does that even work? I'm not sure I understand the concept of an NPC coming in to "save the day," much less an "iconic" one. Do the players not understand the concept of retreat? Or are the DMs just so bad that they're constantly setting challenges that they can neither conquer nor escape? Do the DMs not understand that deus ex machina might have worked in ancient Greek drama but it's kind of cliched (and not fun) nowadays? Or are they just 13 years old? Seriously, I'm just really confused by the whole concept. It's completely outside of my conception. Two words: lame gamers. Not really difficult to understand, I think. Bad DMs and bad players together make for bad campaigns. This is why I can't play D&D right now. I have maybe ONE! decent player within arm's reach, and he hardly ever has time for any sort of involved game anymore. Other than him, I have one amateur with at least a vague interest in the game, and I have me. Me, I could be a decent DM, though I'd need some practice before setting up my own challenges and adventures. And I'm sure I'd be a pretty decent player. The other guy--my little brother--would be a decent player but a not-so-good DM (he's no storyteller, at least not yet). And everyone else in my general vicinity is lacking in interest, let alone eptitude. Players who have to resort to deus ex machina situations are like people who use GameSharks to win every PlayStation game they've ever owned, and then argue that the games are too hard to win without them. (Example: my same little brother, whenever he plays Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.) They lack talent, so they make up for it by--dare I say it?--cheating the system. Drizzt Do'Urden's no teleport, silly, you can't just type in a spawn code and have an army of him pop out of hammerspace and slam Sarevok! Elminster may be an awesome wizard, but come on, what are the chances that he's not someplace else dealing with something else when you need him to save you from that bunch of beholders you so foolishly challenged with your level three party? Come on, guys, seriously. Play your role, and do what a serious adventurer would do. This isn't hacking; this is adventuring.
Meldread 09-26-07, 04:01 PM	Do the DMs not understand that deus ex machina might have worked in ancient Greek drama but it's kind of cliched (and not fun) nowadays? I believe it was Ed who made the suggestion that this is how Elminster was designed to be used, and said he had used Elminster in several such situations when dealing with the Knights of Myth Drannor. Although, I do agree with you completely. No DM worth his or her salt is going to do that. If the players get in over their head due to stupid tactics then they have to suffer the consequences. If they think Elminster is just going to show up whenever they are in trouble, then they won't feel any real sense of danger or fear. I have no problem with fudging dice rolls when someone gets really unlucky. The game is about having fun. I don't mind bending the rules to let that happen, but that is pretty much as far as I think it should go. ---- Leon you said what I tried to say and did it much better than I could have done.
johnkretzer 09-26-07, 04:32 PM	I realize it's somewhat off-topic, but how does that even work? I'm not sure I understand the concept of an NPC coming in to "save the day," much less an "iconic" one. Do the players not understand the concept of retreat? Or are the DMs just so bad that they're constantly setting challenges that they can neither conquer nor escape? Do the DMs not understand that deus ex machina might have worked in ancient Greek drama but it's kind of cliched (and not fun) nowadays? Or are they just 13 years old? Seriously, I'm just really confused by the whole concept. It's completely outside of my conception. I think this is on topic. As I see it it is one of the main reasons why people do hate iconic characters. Is a bad experience with such a group (or serveral in a roll) and now they hate the characters. Which I can understand. Like I said I think Drizzt is a great character(atleast at first...he gotten to Fonzy like now), but what I hate is the fanboys. Personaly getting rid of them won't change it, but it seems like WotC thinks so...
The_Wrath_of_Talos 09-26-07, 04:57 PM	I think the "hate" comes from the epic achievements these charectors have dealt with throughout the novels and the relatively low stats they all posses in comparesson to the stats generated by a 4D6 roll. All the PC's God like statistics and carefully built charectors are wasted because the DM still has no problem ripping them a new one. While a poorly developed legend can come in at anytime and fix any situation.
The WarOverlord 09-26-07, 07:54 PM	The problem that people have with these characters is not a problem with the characters themselves. It is a problem of flavor and an internal consistency with the world. The Realm's is filled with epic level characters both good and evil. When you fill a setting with these characters it begins to lose its internal consistency. It leads to serious problems, dues ex machina, and a shattering of believability in the setting. For example, let us say that goblins came together around an Obould type goblin figure in the Stonelands. A few portals were opened to other goblin heavy populated areas an those goblins brought to the Stonelands to pledge alliance to a goblin-king. This king intends to take Cormyr and it is up to your PCs to stop him and his massive army. A few questions quickly arise. Why isn’t Elminster helping? He’s busy. What about the Simbul? She’s busy. What about one of the other Seven Sisters? They are all busy. What about one of the other 9,000 other epic level wizards in the setting? Nope. Absolutely everyone is busy, it's up to you! Now, that might seem funny but when you think about it the moment an army of goblins amass and prepare to march and take over Cormyr here is what would likely happen. Word goes out to Mystra's Chosen. The Simbul hears word first because Elminster actually is busy doing something else. She reads the note, puts it away, goes to bed, wakes up the next morning and has breakfast. She teleports over to Cormyr and hurls a few spells. Those spells wipe out their entire force in under an hour. She then sends her regards to the country, teleports back to Aglarond giving herself a few hours before lunch to work on some other important duties. Problem solved. The problem is not with the characters themselves but the level of power that they possess. Over 95% of the Realm's is under level five with the vast majority being level one. When you have these epic level characters running around it is the equivalent of having a nuclear weapon on the lose. Nothing can stop them with the exception of another epic level character. This requires you to create another epic level character. Every time an epic level character is created another counter epic level character must also be created to keep the other in check. Eventually, you end up with a world filled with nuclear characters that are all aimed and pointed at each other. Entire nations could fall to a single one of these characters. Even non-epic characters can cripple if not destroy a nation. The power that they possess is so extraordinary and beyond what is possessed by the rest of the world that the internal consistency collapses. Why build a wall when you have so many wizards running around who can turn it to mud? Why fight over resources when you have the ability to access an endless supply through various magical means? How does an economy function with an endless supply of resources? How do local citizens react when that high level wizard shows up in their town and decides that he doesn't like someone so he kills them? Are you going to send the local militia and town guards to arrest him? Are you crazy? A few walls of stone to block the gates followed by a few fireballs and he can wipe out your entire town. Going to call for Adventures? Good luck I'm sure he -won't- see the notice you put out. Going to ask the Harpers for assistance? Too bad most of them are low level like the rest of the world. So on and so forth. Most of the epic level characters are found in novels. However, most of the people you hear complaining are playing D&D, so while those characters might be good in the novels they do not mesh well with the game system. However, they are turned into cannon as are their actions. They are responsible for all of the RSE's that get complained about, when you are dealing with such high level characters a RSE is unavoidable. Oh come on, this is like asking why God doesn't solve all the world's problems if he is so pwerful?...lol Yes, Elminster is "powerful" but he is an old fart that believes guiding younger,stronger backed, adventurers the right way over possibly spraining an ankle dealing with the problem himself is the way to go. Likewise 1 sister is "Dead" and can't go anywhere her foundation stone isn't, 1 rules a country, the other rules a city, and so on an so forth so they do have other obligations that can make going "gun-ho" inconvenient at best And Like Elminster, while the Sisters are powerful they are also very mortal and any risk, no matter how small, can result in a leaderless country if those Goblins happen to have a Relic of Jubilixx or some other weapon in case a legendary figure comes sweeping by (as it was a trap to kill the Simbul in the first place) And to that that most of them have lived way past their wander lust and sense of adventure (As in they just down want to do it anymore) and it does make sense that the Chosen are pretty much retired from active adventuring or downright bored with it cause they CAN wipe out an Army with a few placed Fireballs then they have nothing else to do for the rest of the week...lol I can understand. I mean, again, I have a RETIRED 72nd Level Cavalier, and a RETIRED 66th Level Magic User that are happy staying in one place and doing other things since they would otherwise be yawning while killing a Army of 15,000 Orcs by mearly staring them down (Well the Magic user has a death gaze spell anyway, the Cavalier would have to at least use 1 hand to swing a sword...able to swoop and kill 10 Orcs at a time with a single swing) Point? There is a time when the PCs are too powerful for adventuring...doesn't mean you NEED to use them in active adventuring. I mean the cavalier, to it's displeasure, has been styled a "god" though it prefers the title "Guardian" (the Clerics of the Religion get Spells Granted despite the Cavaliers' denial though...so). The Magic User,despite all its magical power, is contented to run a library and can be called upon as a SAGE to answer any question given time (The Library of Infinite Knowledge is open to the Public if you know where to find it) And, Since I sense someone wants me to say it, yes My Cavalier and Magic users could lay Waste to the Old Sage, the Seven Sisters, and the other Legendary figures...but why would they want to? Just cause you have power doesn't mean you have to boast about it or use it to put others "in their place" or show off And the problem with solving problems is that people start to expect more and more solutions by your hands and stop relying on their own and soon enough you are swamped with trying to solve everyone else's problems with no time to relax or tend to your own matters.
Meldread 09-27-07, 12:45 AM	WarOverlord- Your characters illustrate exactly what I am talking about. Just about every town of decent size has an epic or mid to high level (10th level +) character. These characters are so out of scope with the rest of the world that they are literally gods made flesh. Hell, your characters are HIGHER LEVEL than 99% of the Gods THEMSELVES. (Most of them seem to hover around level 55, and Bane seems the only deity to have achieved a level higher than 60.) Thankfully, after a certain point levels become irrelevant. You are already so powerful that getting a higher level just doesn't boost your power by any noticeable comparison. These types of characters litter the Realm's. They can crush entire armies single handedly without assistance. That is unbalanced. It would not be so bad if it were just a small handful, but they are prevalent and widespread. I just popped open the Unapproachable East to prove my point. I randomly opened the book to a page and looked to find the city and towns section. The Great Dale has a hamlet named Kront with a population of 267 people and it has a level 11 Ranger in it along with a level 9 Druid. Over in Uthmere they have a level 13th Fighter, level 11 Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, and Sorcerer and a huge number of level 5+ characters. Flipping over to Thay, I'll just skip over Eltabbar because Tam is there, but looking over at Escalant we find a level 16 Rogue, level 12 Cleric, level 16 Fighter, level 4 Fighter / 8 Bard, level 12 Fighter, among many others. Jumping over to Thesk and Phsant we find a level 11 Rogue / 6 Sorcerer, level 14 Fighter, level 13 Fighter, level 11 Fighter, level 16 Rogue, and really I could go on and on. The point I am trying to make is that any one of these characters could conceivably stand up to any threat a town, village or hamlet would ever face. This goes without even touching the uber characters - those who have achieved 20+ in levels. Do you think a small little hamlet with a level 11 Ranger and level 9 Druid are going to fear the small little goblin tribe who happened to move in next door? No, they could single handedly wipe them out. They might have a little trouble with an army, but they didn't reach their levels by sitting back and doing nothing. They have friends who are likely also around the same level that they could call on for assistance. If you want to factor in the uber level characters, the epics, then you have to consider how any single one of them could just walk into any town they picked off the map at random and wipe it out. They could simply just wipe it out completely as if you dropped a nuclear bomb right in the middle of it. The only way to protect a town against this is to have either a number of mid-level characters to guard against it or an Epic character or two who favor the location and seek to protect it. And THAT is where the problem comes into play. Over 98% of the Realm's is first level and the vast majority lack PC classes. Do you honestly think they could stand up to a level 18 Wizard who decided to show up and hurl fireballs at anyone who doesn't obey him immediately? What are you going to do? Elminster would stop that, surely? No. He's going to let the up and coming guy stop it, right? Well what if the up and coming guy happens to be busy, because after all Elminster isn't the only one who can be busy. It is a whole situation that is just completely screwed. No matter what you do or how you try it makes no logical sense. Saying Elminster would not get involved if a goblin army amassed and started marching on Cormyr is crazy. That is like saying the United States is being invaded, but you know - all the people in power have decided not to do anything. They are going to sit back and let the up and coming generation handle it. No, that's just ridiculous. It'd take about an hour of his time and save countless lives. Of course, you could give the goblin army an artifact to deal with such a situation, but then you step into the realm of deus ex machina. Sadly, you will eventually find yourself there anyway when you find yourself trying to explain away why person X in the village is not doing anything to stop Threat Y and it has fallen to -you- to take care of it. How heroic does it sound to say, "Yeah well he WOULD do it, but you know... he's reading a book. He doesn't feel like he should be bothered. Instead, he's decided to pay you X amount of coin to take care of the problem and possibly die in the process. By the way, he's also Lawful Good. So Paladin, don't think about smiting him for sitting back and watching good people suffer and die!"
Dark Wizard 09-27-07, 01:43 AM	Perhaps FR 4E should adopt a gimmick similar to Eberron's where the vast majority of characters with levels are under level 10-12 and the majority of those are in NPC classes (adept, expert, warrior, commoner). Yet that still doesn't explain why a first level party is needed when the level 4 warrior guard captain and his two lieutenants, level 2 warriors, plus a handful of level 1 warrior guards can clean out any reasonable adventure site that your level 1 party can handle. It's not as fantastic as the Level 20+ crowd, but the same dynamic exists. Face it, it's a game, and like any game it contains a set of contrivances. Could WotC handle this better, probably. I've always felt there should be an arcane adept/sage NPC class that most of the NPC wizards should have a majority of their levels in (Elminster included), but the problem is found even at the lowest levels. I think the problem is less the way the characters are stat'ed but more how they are presented. Greyhawk has similarly high level characters, but there are far fewer complaints against them. FR needs to separate itself from the concept of iconic characters (especially those found in novels). The NPCs found in the book should also go as stat-less as possible. It is the quickest way to get rid of this "Overflowing with Uber-characters" reputation. When people open the FRCS 4E and find a write up of Elminster but he doesn't have any stats, then I think the complains will finally subside a bit. I have a feeling WotC can't do that and the first things we see in the new FRCS will probably be pictures of El and Drizzt, a write up with stats.
johnkretzer 09-27-07, 02:16 AM	I think the "hate" comes from the epic achievements these charectors have dealt with throughout the novels and the relatively low stats they all posses in comparesson to the stats generated by a 4D6 roll. All the PC's God like statistics and carefully built charectors are wasted because the DM still has no problem ripping them a new one. While a poorly developed legend can come in at anytime and fix any situation. I agree but has I always said novels don't equal a RPG. One of the main things is that a character in a novel has a author who ingeneral wants the character to win. In a RPG the characters are up against NPCs who if the DM is good will be trying to stop them.
Fire_Wraith 09-27-07, 02:21 AM	The problems of level inflation you're discussing have nothing to do with Elminster et al, nor anything to do with the Forgotten Realms per se. Rather, they are a byproduct of the game system itself. Yes, it is imperfect. But it could be a lot worse - take a look at many online roleplaying games, where the guards in every town are of an insane level, simply because they have to be in order to prevent the 18th level mage of the example cited from wreaking havoc. Why do some people dislike them? You might as well ask why I like them. Honestly, no one forces their inclusion in any campaign. I personally have never involved any of the characters from Salvatore's novels in any of the games I have run, for instance. I have used many others, such as Storm, and Qilué, to name a pair, in a more recent campaign set in and around Cormyr and the Dalelands, but their appearances are quite rare indeed, and generally used for minor bits of plot exposition, rather than to pull anyone's bacon out of the fire. Is there misuse and clichédness of some of these characters? I only have to think back to how many (badly made and played) clones of a certain dark elf ranger I've seen in almost every online game I've played in the last ten years, and a few that weren't online, to answer that. Does that make the character inherently flawed and in need of removal from the Realms? Of course not. These characters are part of what makes the Forgotten Realms be the Forgotten Realms. Kill them off at your peril - I'll merely point to what happened when Dragonlance started killing off its iconic characters in droves. I know I stopped reading, buying - and caring.
Meldread 09-27-07, 06:28 AM	I don't think people -really- hate the Iconic Characters as much as stated. The two things people seem to hate are: 1. How they are portrayed as being virtually unstoppable like comic book super heroes. (And by the rules, this is actually mostly true.) 2. The fanboism that surrounds them, particularly Elminster and Drizzt. That is why those two seem to catch the most flack. Drizzt seems to be hated more on these forums than Elminster, and I'm not sure why exactly. Maybe it has something to do with Elminster being Ed's character while Drizzt is RAS character. I don't particularly care for either of them, but in general they do not bother me. Really, it's a flavor issue with me, and you're right Fire_Wraith a lot of it seems to be based in the game rules. People may hate having 25th level city guards on average, but when you think about it that makes sense when put in context with the rest of the world. If a PC can gain two or three levels in the span of two or three game days fighting goblins or orcs, can you imagine the level of a veteran soldier of multiple wars? He would at least be 14th level. Maybe some people like that in their games, but personally I feel the 'balance' of D&D starts to break down around 10th level. Once you cross that threshold the believability of things becomes strained. Economies can break. Threats that once challenged people become non-issues. There is a serious shift in the fundamental workings of the world. It's like waking up one day to find that the rules of physics changed. The root of the problem is scalability. Things scale too quickly and the level system seems to be the culprit. However, I have to wonder if a skill-based system would fix the problem?
Lord Karsus 09-27-07, 02:45 PM	Drizzt seems to be hated more on these forums than Elminster, and I'm not sure why exactly. Maybe it has something to do with Elminster being Ed's character while Drizzt is RAS character. I don't particularly care for either of them, but in general they do not bother me. -Because having hordes of people emulating Elminster, and playing old, sagely wizards isn't a bad thing. Hordes of people playing scimitar-wielding goodly Drow is a bad thing, however.
MarkusTay63 09-27-07, 04:19 PM	those bastardsI cried for days. :weep:
Meldread 09-27-07, 05:20 PM	Because having hordes of people emulating Elminster, and playing old, sagely wizards isn't a bad thing. Hordes of people playing scimitar-wielding goodly Drow is a bad thing, however. I disagree. I happen to think both are equally a bad thing because it displays a strong lack of originality. If someone cannot utilize one of the most basic parts of their imagination while playing D&D they simply are not the type of players I want to game with. After all... do you really want someone in your game that is hell bent on playing a cantankerous old Wizard with a pointy hat, who just "happens" to have a fondness for smoking pipes, young women, wants to join the Harpers and speaks in a horribly done old English accent?
Dark Wizard 09-28-07, 12:02 AM	I disagree. I happen to think both are equally a bad thing because it displays a strong lack of originality. If someone cannot utilize one of the most basic parts of their imagination while playing D&D they simply are not the type of players I want to game with. After all... do you really want someone in your game that is hell bent on playing a cantankerous old Wizard with a pointy hat, who just "happens" to have a fondness for smoking pipes, young women, wants to join the Harpers and speaks in a horribly done old English accent? The Elminster clone can actually be spun off into a lot of character types and is easier to changed to fit other characters (it's a bit more generic (even archetypcal) rather than just unimaginative). Drizzt's characteristics are more readily identifiable, blatantly so. Thus even original characters that superficially resemble him are blamed for Drizzt fanboyism (people complain a lot about that in these threads and others from what I can recall). Plus, I think the Drizzt fans outnumber the Elminster fans, but a lot.
Lord Karsus 09-28-07, 12:38 AM	I disagree. I happen to think both are equally a bad thing because it displays a strong lack of originality. If someone cannot utilize one of the most basic parts of their imagination while playing D&D they simply are not the type of players I want to game with. After all... do you really want someone in your game that is hell bent on playing a cantankerous old Wizard with a pointy hat, who just "happens" to have a fondness for smoking pipes, young women, wants to join the Harpers and speaks in a horribly done old English accent? -For the most part, Elminster is a Wizard archetype- pointy hat wearing , old, sagely, speaks in a horribly done Old English accent. In that respect, you build from this. Drizzt's characteristics are far more specific to his character. There is an infinite amount of pointy hat wearing , old, sagely, Wizards who speak in a horribly done Old English accent. There is a extremely finite amount of goodly Drow who wield dual scimitars.
Meldread 09-28-07, 07:11 AM	I think you both are missing the underlying point. It doesn't really matter what the character is, be it Drizzt, Elminster or the Simbul, the problem is fanboyism. It doesn't really matter if we're dealing with a person who wants to play a goodly Drow who duel wields scimitars or an old sage like wizard. It is what it is and I think we all agree that fanboyism is bad. One of my key points is that the reason a lot of people hate Iconic Characters is because of the near worship some people seem to display for them. A good case in point I am reminded of something I read awhile back dealing with a DM and a Drizzt worshiper. I believe it was on Enworld but I can't be completely certain. The situation was typical in the beginning. The player came to the table and wanted to roll up your standard Drizzt Clone. The DM reluctantly allowed it. The player then did everything in his power to try and seek out Drizzt in the game world to try and get him to adventure with the party. The DM was getting fed up with the situation, but decided to allow it. He allowed Drizzt to adventure with the party for a session or so until the group found themselves captured by a Drow raiding party. The player in question and the rest of the group had to watch as Drizzt was (rather graphically) sacrificed to Lolth. The player in question began to cry and left the game. That is only a mild example of some of the situations that have popped up over the years. Personally, I think it's great that people find characters in the Forgotten Realm's that they like and love. I have fantasy characters that I love as well. However, some people really do not know where to draw the line. Even drawing inspiration from characters that you love is also fine. If you want to play a good aligned Drow of Eilistraee, fine I'll allow that. If you want to play a sagely old Wizard I will reluctantly allow that. However, when you want to call yourself Drozzt or Elmunster, the latter who just happens to live in Shadowdale we will have problems. DM TIP: When you are dealing with players like the above, it is generally important to realize that they are going to try and design a Mary Sue character. So if you spot this in character generation make the player inject a number of flaws, and then during the course of the game liberally exploit them. Flaws do not have to be bad on the surface - "My character is noble and will always strive to do the right thing" is just as good as "My character has schizophrenia." In fact, I believe the former is better than the latter as the characters being emulated are often of good alignment. Placing the character in situations in which they have to make a choice over doing what is right and most expedient then awarding / penalizing properly is a good way to force them into character development. It will lure them out of the stereotypical mold and hopefully push them toward becoming more unique. Additionally, keep an eye on them so that they do not munchkinize the rules. (However, anyone who wishes to play a character with schizophrenia I will gladly be the crazy voice in your head and give you delusions that plague your daily life. Say yes for phat loot and XP! :P)
Lord Karsus 09-28-07, 11:49 AM	I think you both are missing the underlying point. It doesn't really matter what the character is, be it Drizzt, Elminster or the Simbul, the problem is fanboyism. It doesn't really matter if we're dealing with a person who wants to play a goodly Drow who duel wields scimitars or an old sage like wizard. It is what it is and I think we all agree that fanboyism is bad. -The point, though, is that the stereotypical old, sagely wizard is a common enough sight throughout the Realms, whereas the scimitar-wielding goodly Drow is not. As such, playing a form of the former character is "not as bad" as playing a form of the latter character. The player in question and the rest of the group had to watch as Drizzt was (rather graphically) sacrificed to Lolth. The player in question began to cry and left the game. -Should I feel bad that I just laughed? :embarrass However, when you want to call yourself Drozzt or Elmunster, the latter who just happens to live in Shadowdale we will have problems. -Agreed.
Sir_Palstin 09-28-07, 05:53 PM	I really just don't like Elminister, so I'm just going to have him die in a falling castle:D
Sir_Palstin 09-28-07, 06:01 PM	Actually, he can't die quick!! I'm going to have the Red Wizards send him 5 black dragons with the 1E dragon orbs!!!!:D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 06:45 PM	-Should I feel bad that I just laughed? :embarrass Hell no, that was funny!:rofl:
GothicDan 09-28-07, 06:57 PM	Actually, he can't die quick!! I'm going to have the Red Wizards send him 5 black dragons with the 1E dragon orbs!!!! Judging by your exceptional use of exclamation points, I'm not sure if any plan you could develop would be ingenious enough to kill Elminster. Heck, no one on these boards could do it. Archmages are pretty much literally, intellectually beyond us to the point where it's almost impossible to play them properly.
MarkusTay63 09-28-07, 06:58 PM	He allowed Drizzt to adventure with the party for a session or so until the group found themselves captured by a Drow raiding party. The player in question and the rest of the group had to watch as Drizzt was (rather graphically) sacrificed to Lolth. The player in question began to cry and left the game. That is only a mild example of some of the situations that have popped up over the years. -Should I feel bad that I just laughed? :embarrass Hell no, that was funny!:rofl:Agreed. :D The only thing lacking is what I would have done - got up and locked the door after they left.
johnkretzer 09-28-07, 08:45 PM	Judging by your exceptional use of exclamation points, I'm not sure if any plan you could develop would be ingenious enough to kill Elminster. Heck, no one on these boards could do it. Archmages are pretty much literally, intellectually beyond us to the point where it's almost impossible to play them properly. Elminster is killable...like anything else. You just can't be using a sledge hammer. Just because you are smart doesn't mean you are wise or careful, or any number of weakness that can exploited. That attitude alsao leads to a lot of NPC hate...Elminster, Drizzt, the 7 Sister, etc are all killable none of them are invulnerable, You know how I know this? They have stats. But personaly I like Elminster...he is a fun NPC to have around and is waiting for one of my arcane casters to learn some magic from...(though I disagree with my DM on which he is more likely to take on as a apprenticed...the mid level caster who already is opinioned in the use of magic...or the low level adventurer who has yet taken a wizard level and still open to the wonder of magic( my opinion by the way)...
GothicDan 09-28-07, 09:18 PM	I never said he couldn't be killed, and I wasn't saying his difficulty of being killed was related to his novel popularity (as would be inferred from the case of Drizzt). I was referring to his personal power, his allies, his experience, and his Intelligence. I was simply saying that the sheer level of Intelligence that it would take to kill him in game would be greater than that of any on these boards, since it be assumed that we all have Ints of 18 or below.
MerrikCale 09-28-07, 09:43 PM	-Because having hordes of people emulating Elminster, and playing old, sagely wizards isn't a bad thing. Hordes of people playing scimitar-wielding goodly Drow is a bad thing, however. I have a felling that if I ever admitted that I actually like Drizzt, I would be made fun of on these boards. Thats why I won't do it.
Dark Wizard 09-28-07, 09:45 PM	I have a felling that if I ever admitted that I actually like Drizzt, I would be made fun of on these boards. Thats why I won't do it. Didn't you just do so? :uh-huh: But that's alright. If you like the character you should go on right ahead liking the character.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 09:47 PM	Exactly. We'll just make fun of you for it. *Points and laughs.*
MarkusTay63 09-28-07, 10:02 PM	I was simply saying that the sheer level of Intelligence that it would take to kill him in game would be greater than that of any on these boards, since it be assumed that we all have Ints of 18 or below.Then I have at least a 19. ;) And there is nothing wrong with Drizzt, he's decent character. Its the rabid fans that turned him into a nigh-unstoppable killing machine, and over-used stereotype to boot. Just don't get me started on RAS's 'retard' Dwarves. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 09-28-07, 10:14 PM	I honestly do not like Drizzt as a character, either. I find it really hard to believe that a pure CG Drow would arise spontaneously out of a completely CE culture. Zaknafein? I liked him more, from the little I've read.
Dark Wizard 09-28-07, 10:22 PM	Just don't get me started on RAS's 'retard' Dwarves. :rolleyes: There was once not too long ago when I thought RAS respected dwarves and was one of the few Realms authors who dared consistently write strong dwarven characters. Then I heard some of the names he gave his dwarven characters and that illusion shattered. This was made painfully clear when I read the Orc King prologue where it praises the dwarven warriors and leaders of old (old by prologue time) and while names like Bruenor work, he also mentions names like Dagnabbit (sp?). I broke out laughing at the ridiculousness of that name coming up praised by anyone, anywhere. Then I realized the dwarves of Faerun are doomed. Utterly hopeless as a serious race.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 10:32 PM	I want to make a Dwarven engineer/Artificer named Blastitall.
Dark Wizard 09-28-07, 10:42 PM	Don't forget his doofy sidekicks, brothers Goshdarnit and Geegolly, cause you know dwarves are so dour they're in desperate need of comic relief. Hey that was easy, the easiest dwarven names I've ever came up with. I should do this more often, it'll save me the many minutes it takes to create a dwarven name, which I often spend more minutes revising along the way until it seems just right.
Ravenscroft 09-29-07, 01:07 AM	-Uh, I think that the majority of us here actually like the iconic characters (Elminster, the Seven Sisters, etc.), actually. Perhaps that might be because a large number of people who hate the iconic characters , do not use the Realms as a setting and hence do not post to or read these boards.
Old Sage 09-29-07, 02:00 AM	Maybe it has something to do with Elminster being Ed's character...Absolutely not; this is just a marketing nonsense once put about by TSR. This comes directly from Ed:- "No, I have never said Elminster is my “alter ego.” TSR has, many times; a practice that began in GenCon pre-registration blurb booklets, describing the seminars I did in costume, acting the part of Elminster - - ALSO a practice TSR asked me to begin and carry on. When they, many years later, asked me to leave the costume at home, I happily did so. Those robes are hot. :} To reiterate: I have never, ever said that Elminster is my alter ego or wish fulfillment character, or thought that way for one minute. I will never use any Realms characters in that manner, because doing so would ruin the whole fun of creating the world and its characters, and watching what happens and how they evolve. Just as all of the gamers who have played various PC adventurers in my Realms sessions over the years are playing roles, not themselves."
Old Sage 09-29-07, 02:02 AM	-For the most part, Elminster is a Wizard archetype- pointy hat wearing , old, sagely, speaks in a horribly done Old English accent. In that respect, you build from this.The ARCHETYPE concept is an important consideration with respect to this particular topic. I'll let the Lady Hooded One explain:- "Or to put it more bluntly, it follows that Gandalf's power and near god-like abilities are plainly Merlin ripoffs. Just as Merlin's are plainly ripoffs of . . . and so on. That's what archetypes ARE. For the record, Ed was once asked to sit on a board examining a doctoral thesis dissertation on this very archetype, questioning a candidate on the differences between Fizban/Fistandantilus (probable spelling mistake there, I'm afraid), Elminster, Belgarath, Merlin, Gandalf, and (if I remember rightly) three wizards from operas. The candidate got his PhD because Ed concluded (and wrote in his judgement) that the candidate clearly understood the differences between all of them as characters - - while still demonstrating how all of them "worked" as versions of the archetype. As for the "look" of Elminster (Early Version): that was entirely TSR's doing, because they WANTED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE GANDALF to "cash in" on the then-current LORD OF THE RINGS popularity. [...] love, THO"
Meldread 09-29-07, 09:20 AM	Absolutely not; this is just a marketing nonsense once put about by TSR. That is not what I meant. When I said Ed's character I meant it in a literal sense - that Ed created Elminster (thus he is more favored) than Drizzt who RAS has created. Those who seem to hate Drizzt also seem to hate RAS for his "influence" over the Realm's. (Meaning that they view it as somehow corrupting Ed's vision.)
GothicDan 09-29-07, 03:41 PM	As for the "look" of Elminster (Early Version): that was entirely TSR's doing, because they WANTED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE GANDALF to "cash in" on the then-current LORD OF THE RINGS popularity. Haha. I wonder what he ORIGINALLY looked like...
Crust 09-29-07, 07:17 PM	I honestly do not like Drizzt as a character, either. I find it really hard to believe that a pure CG Drow would arise spontaneously out of a completely CE culture. He's like Neo, that singular anomaly that inevitably arises out of a necessarily imperfect reality. There've been like nine of them already. ;) I love the iconics. They're not perfect, but I keep buying the books. :)
Lord Karsus 09-29-07, 07:44 PM	Perhaps that might be because a large number of people who hate the iconic characters , do not use the Realms as a setting and hence do not post to or read these boards. -Read what the OP said. He/she specifically stated that those of us on the boards ("perusing these threads ive noticed something") dislike 'iconic' characters, which is clearly false, as he posed this topic in the FR section, and not, say, the Eberron, or the Generic D&D section. Haha. I wonder what he ORIGINALLY looked like... -Theodore Roosevelt? Henry Kissinger? Janet Reno?
GothicDan 09-29-07, 08:07 PM	He's like Neo, that singular anomaly that inevitably arises out of a necessarily imperfect reality. There've been like nine of them already. HATE the Matrix.
GothicDan 09-29-07, 08:08 PM	-Theodore Roosevelt? Henry Kissinger? Janet Reno? I like to think Tom Baker.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-29-07, 09:24 PM	I have a felling that if I ever admitted that I actually like Drizzt, I would be made fun of on these boards. Thats why I won't do it. I like Drizzt as he is, but haven't always cared very much for how he is written, or RAS's writing style in general. I do agree that his background is improbable--he was good from the beginning, even in spite of the culture he was raised in. Oh well...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-29-07, 09:29 PM	There was once not too long ago when I thought RAS respected dwarves and was one of the few Realms authors who dared consistently write strong dwarven characters. Then I heard some of the names he gave his dwarven characters and that illusion shattered. This was made painfully clear when I read the Orc King prologue where it praises the dwarven warriors and leaders of old (old by prologue time) and while names like Bruenor work, he also mentions names like Dagnabbit (sp?). I broke out laughing at the ridiculousness of that name coming up praised by anyone, anywhere. Then I realized the dwarves of Faerun are doomed. Utterly hopeless as a serious race. That's the correct spelling--Dagnabbit.:rofl: Then there's Cordio Muffinhead, the Fishsquisher brothers, and so on.
Old Sage 09-29-07, 10:09 PM	I like to think Tom Baker.Complete with a little white bag full of jelly babies. ;)
GothicDan 09-29-07, 10:11 PM	I needed that cheer up. The news about Mystra's Chosen just fouled my mood for who knows how long. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-29-07, 10:47 PM	I needed that cheer up. The news about Mystra's Chosen just fouled my mood for who knows how long. :) I just heard it.:weep: Screw you, WotC. And screw the people who keep saying, "stay optimistic, they aren't changing the Realms, it won't be so bad, you grognards!" Yeah ****ing right.
johnkretzer 09-29-07, 11:43 PM	I honestly do not like Drizzt as a character, either. I find it really hard to believe that a pure CG Drow would arise spontaneously out of a completely CE culture. Zaknafein? I liked him more, from the little I've read. I am guessing you don't believe in the stregth of the invidual...though I agree Zaknafein was the better character.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-29-07, 11:58 PM	I am guessing you don't believe in the stregth of the invidual... Speaking for myself, I am very much an individualist. But if Drizzt was able to instantly see how "wrong" his culture was (he was just good--no one taught him about being a good person, not even Zaknafein), how come no one else was able to do that? I think what bugs me about it is how Drizzt is made out to be SPESHUL under circumstances where it makes little sense. And before someone says it, Zak wasn't a "good" person. He didn't like his culture, but he wasn't that good himself--at least not the way Drizzt was. Zak only seems goodly when compared to most other drow.
johnkretzer 09-30-07, 12:09 AM	Speaking for myself, I am very much an individualist. But if Drizzt was able to instantly see how "wrong" his culture was (he was just good--no one taught him about being a good person, not even Zaknafein), how come no one else was able to do that? I think what bugs me about it is how Drizzt is made out to be SPESHUL under circumstances where it makes little sense. And before someone says it, Zak wasn't a "good" person. He didn't like his culture, but he wasn't that good himself--at least not the way Drizzt was. Zak only seems goodly when compared to most other drow. Well for one thing he just wasn't a good person. Being raised by sister Vierna who at the time wasn't as corrupted as other drows shielded him from the evilness of his society. Then training with his father, Zak., also continued to shelter him till he could see that his society was wrong. Those two characters instilled into him a morale compass that allowed him to make those judgements. The thing that I hated in the books was I would have like to see his sister, Vierna, be redeemed... I think I stopped reading them at that point(or atleast shortly after that point). But then again I have always believed it is never too late to turn away from evil. I think it was the fact that while he didn't start out special he became very special that annoyed me...mmm...I am wondering if they are going to remove or corrupt Elistraee so he can be truely 'special'.
GothicDan 09-30-07, 12:23 AM	I'm an individualist who also doesn't believe in morality - so you can see where I see no sense in the "he immediately saw it was wrong" argument.
johnkretzer 09-30-07, 02:42 AM	I'm an individualist who also doesn't believe in morality - so you can see where I see no sense in the "he immediately saw it was wrong" argument. Sure but I really don't think "he immediately saw it as wrong" atleast not how it was orginaly writen. Every society will have it's outcasts...Vierna was one, as was Zak. Those two raised him different then what was the norm of that society. While I do believe it is possible for someone to live in a society and see what it is wrong with it I do agree with you that it would be impossible to be born with that sense. But Drizzt was raised in isloation for the most part from the society he rejects.
Lord Karsus 09-30-07, 10:56 PM	I needed that cheer up. The news about Mystra's Chosen just fouled my mood for who knows how long. :) -News? What news?
Zerowolf2nd 10-01-07, 02:16 AM	I would like to apalogize to the masses if it seemed like i was generalizing with my beginning post. I just happened to notice alot of negative comments when perusing the boards about the many varied Iconic FR characters (Especially the high level mage characters) and thought it a bit odd as these characters are what originally got me interesting in the setting in the first place. So i will admit the initial question was poorely worded, my apologies, but i have noticed (especially when people are "discussing" the 4th edition changes) several have been in favor of killing of alot of characters and vastly changing FR LORE for mechanics sake. I personally feel that FR should become its own unique game (and yes i expect flame for this) which hold to the rules orinally set up for the setting. and with that i will end my post.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-01-07, 03:09 PM	Sure but I really don't think "he immediately saw it as wrong" atleast not how it was orginaly writen. Every society will have it's outcasts...Vierna was one, as was Zak. Those two raised him different then what was the norm of that society. Vierna was not an outcast at all--she wasn't as harsh as most others, but she was still fully entrenched in her culture. And indeed, so was Zak--he angsted over how hellish his existence was, but stayed with it anyway. Drizzt was surrounded by evil people while growing up, yet he just innately knew how wrong they all were. It doesn't make much sense to me (or a lot of other people, as I've learned down the years).
johnkretzer 10-01-07, 03:47 PM	Vierna was not an outcast at all--she wasn't as harsh as most others, but she was still fully entrenched in her culture. And indeed, so was Zak--he angsted over how hellish his existence was, but stayed with it anyway. Drizzt was surrounded by evil people while growing up, yet he just innately knew how wrong they all were. It doesn't make much sense to me (or a lot of other people, as I've learned down the years). While true, but both also didn't have a 'Zak' shielding them from the culture the way Zak did for for Drizzt. This allowed Drizzt to not get trapped in the culture. Sure they was some innate knowledge on Drizzt parts but both Vierna and Zak showed the same traits. The difference is that they were immediately put into that culture without a 'Zak" protecting them. If Vierna was became a fighter instead of a claric of Lolth she propably turn out to be like Drizzt. Now my problem with it is that it seems that this innate sense of morality is genetic.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-01-07, 04:07 PM	Now my problem with it is that it seems that this innate sense of morality is genetic. Well, yes, that's also dumb.:)
Ravenscroft 10-03-07, 03:18 PM	[Rant]What do you hate about Elminster? (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=355175) This thread from RPGNet may give some insight to why Elminster is hated as an iconic character.
Alediran 10-03-07, 03:56 PM	I'm in the middle of reading it. It's full of toddlers complaining about something that is as irrelevant as the color of my hair.
GothicDan 10-03-07, 04:04 PM	I'm absolutely disgusted with people on that thread. And it's not just because I'm still nauseous from caffeine overdosing.
Alediran 10-03-07, 04:11 PM	Yes, they behave like a bunch of religious extremists.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 07:34 PM	Every other word they use is a curse word. I guess their vocabulary is a little light.
Zandilar 10-03-07, 07:58 PM	Heya, I needed that cheer up. The news about Mystra's Chosen just fouled my mood for who knows how long. :) -News? What news? Yes, I'd like to know too... I haven't heard anything. Someone please enlighten me/us?
GothicDan 10-03-07, 08:00 PM	According to Chris Perkins, "Fans of the Chosen won't be very happy," and they're looking for "less omnipotent forces of good." Take from that what you will....
Zandilar 10-03-07, 08:04 PM	Heya, According to Chris Perkins, "Fans of the Chosen won't be very happy," and they're looking for "less omnipotent forces of good." Take from that what you will.... :OMG! :uh-huh: :nonono: :raincloud I'm changing my sign in name now. I was preparing for it, but now is the time I think.
GothicDan 10-03-07, 08:15 PM	After reading that is when I publicly said "**** you, WotC." :(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 08:27 PM	After reading that is when I publicly said "**** you, WotC." :( Me too.:nonono: Zandilar, you aren't changing your handle, are you? If so, let me know what it is, if you don't mind.:)
MerrikCale 10-03-07, 10:23 PM	Me too.:nonono: Zandilar, you aren't changing your handle, are you? If so, let me know what it is, if you don't mind.:) I think she's switching to Catti-Brie
Lord Karsus 10-04-07, 01:04 PM	According to Chris Perkins, "Fans of the Chosen won't be very happy," and they're looking for "less omnipotent forces of good." Take from that what you will.... -Oi Vey...:nonono: -Where do they find these people?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-04-07, 02:00 PM	-Oi Vey...:nonono: -Where do they find these people? The Shadow Plane, obviously (Shar's realm).
Uzzy 10-04-07, 02:27 PM	Or they find them in threads like the one mentioned before.. grrh.
Lord Karsus 10-04-07, 06:45 PM	The Shadow Plane, obviously (Shar's realm). -I don't know. That looks like something straight from the Far Realm, if you ask me...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-04-07, 10:42 PM	-I don't know. That looks like something straight from the Far Realm, if you ask me... Ha Ha!
Dark Wizard 10-04-07, 11:22 PM	I don't blame all of them, some of the novels and supplements did not handle some aspects of those characters as deftly as the should have. Which is why I feel it is vitally important that WotC work towards changing the perception of the Realms and its iconic NPCs rather than just throw in the towel and then kill them all off. With the latter approach, the Realms will always carry the stigma of "broke setting overrun by epic DMPCs," since with the reset action by WotC, people will think the problem got so bad the company had to run the setting through a shredder and rebuild it from scratch. The Realms will forever more into eternally be saddled with this perception by most players. With the former, if done right, people will actually gradually not consider the high-level NPCs as overpowered, show-stealing DMPCs, simply because the novels and the sourcebooks showed they aren't. Remember that most basic of rules from writing class, "show don't tell."
Lord Karsus 10-04-07, 11:37 PM	-Should we/they really care what a group of people who do not play in the setting say? I mean, I'm not a business man or anything, but... -And, just by tweaking and eliminating this little 'problem' isn't going to suddenly attract X amount of people to the setting. I don't like Eberron particularly. If they changed the Eberron setting to be more like the Realms, I'm still not going to play in the setting.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-05-07, 02:02 PM	-Should we/they really care what a group of people who do not play in the setting say? Nope. And I agree with those who say that detractors of the Realms will always find plenty of reasons not to like the setting.
Faraer 10-05-07, 02:27 PM	This thread from RPGNet may give some insight to why Elminster is hated as an iconic character.On the surface, it gives none. Anyone reading Realms sources and then that thread would be thoroughly baffled.Every other word they use is a curse word.What stands out to me is the sheer self-important nastiness of the attitude. I'd be disinclined to agree with such mean-spiritedness even if it came with a substantial argument.
Lord Karsus 10-05-07, 04:57 PM	On the surface, it gives none. Anyone reading Realms sources and then that thread would be thoroughly baffled. -The majority of the arguments are that other DMs misuse the character, which isn't an acceptable answer, or one that is grounded in much research.
Old Sage 10-05-07, 08:53 PM	On the surface, it gives none. Anyone reading Realms sources and then that thread would be thoroughly baffled.I'm inclined to agree. I also immediately realised a particular [and perhaps selected] ignorance concerning most of what Ed has about Elminster at Candlekeep. What stands out to me is the sheer self-important nastiness of the attitude. I'd be disinclined to agree with such mean-spiritedness even if it came with a substantial argument.What stood out to me, was the number of replies from posters who appear to have only a peripheral knowledge of Elminster and/or the Realms, and yet still seem content to justify their hatred of something they know very little about.
Faraer 10-05-07, 10:28 PM	It's a group-bonding circle jerk; it's as much about Elminster as gossipping about the weather is an exercise in meteorology.
Puritan13 10-05-07, 11:08 PM	I don't dislike any of them. I actually quite like Artemis and Drizzt, and a few of Mystra's chosen. I did dislike the DM that couldn't run a session without having his favorite NPCs, Drizzt and company, steal the spotlight. Seriously, every time a fight got a little rough for us, in would come Aegis Fang to strike dead an enemy, and then the rest of the group would burst into the room. In one session, our mage got a bit ticked off and tried to kill Drizzt by dropping a Wall of Iron on him. DM wouldn't let it work. Didn't roll a save for Drizzt, just vetoed it by saying Drizzt runs out from under the wall. This is the same guy that when I was DMing and describing some action by saying "He winds up and comes at you with a massive downward swing" while pantomiming it, replied with "I step out of the way." My reply? "You're definately getting your dexterity bonus to AC then."
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-06-07, 12:53 PM	Reasons to dislike uber-NPCs. I'll use the Chosen and Drizzt as examples. I'll quickly admit I actually like Drizzt (well, most of his character; not the emo stuff). 1) The Chosen. a) Game stats. The template is incredibly powerful, but their character writeups aren't that powerful, especially in 3e. A properly built party of 20th-level characters could probably kill Elminster in an epic battle... not that Elminster would ever get in that situation. In 2e, I think this was a valid concern. In 3e, it's almost a joke. b) Novel "stats". Here's the real problem. Do you use Elminster as he's shown in the game (where they have advice for why he doesn't stick his nose into things) or the way he's written in the novels (which dictate the tone of the setting)? In the novels, Storm is capable of extending her silver fire to surround a castle, preventing a malaugrym with a touch of the essence of Bane from escaping. That's not just far more powerful than most heroes... that's far more powerful than most 20th-level heroes! Never mind that this isn't reflected in the rules; how do you explain why she can't do that again? Storm isn't even one of the more powerful of the Seven Sisters. The Simbul can single-handedly defeat the Red Wizards of Thay's armies, and can slaughter hundreds of demons in a very short period of time. At least the rumors of her disintegrating an island aren't true. Elminster can't be killed because his Elminster's Evasion spell is amazingly overpowered from a writing perspective (never mind game rules) and if the author doesn't like that, Mystra can personally show up and save his behind. Similarly, Azuth will try to save the dead Seven Sister if someone tries to destroy her; it says so in the 2e Heroes' Lorebook. Khelben has an information network so precise he can tell when a single drow is trying to sneak into Waterdeep (even though she wasn't a spy)... how does anyone do anything wrong in Waterdeep when Khelben can see everything that is going on? (Barring the use of singing artifacts, that is.) They're also super-competent, virtually always seeing through villains' plots. I think a ten year advancement is needed, not because of 4e's rules changes, but just to introduce some new competent villains (and kill Mystra, of course). c) Realms-Shaking Events (not to be confused with the rare Realms-Shattering Events) appear too often in adventures and novels. A drow cult is trying to bring Kiaransalee into the world? That's not just a RSE, it's the sort of thing that adventurers wouldn't realistically have a chance to stop... but it's something the Chosen could do without too much trouble. People might play through City of the Spider Queen just because they know no one would actually write an unbeatable module, not because they think they have much chance. Same thing goes for endless assaults on the Weave. I hope Mystra's last act was to put a guard of some kind on the Weave; one that cannot travel to Toril but will keep out 99% of the invasions. Villains would have to use some sort of McGuffin to get access, and that is under the DM's full control. Hopefully the authors of novels and modules will realize this. d) Deific interference. Mystra interferes too much. If the Chosen throw too much weight around the setting, what about an interventionist goddess of magic? e) Stop reading the novels! Well, you can't really. The setting has become wrapped up in the novels. They either dictate where the setting goes, or big changes get written into the novels. Also, once you stop reading the novels, it would take some sort of super-technology to forget what you read in them. Rendering the novels non-canon would spark a fan revolt. 2) Drizzt. I think he's cool. As stated before, he's a chain gun, not a nuclear weapon. Unlike a wizard, he cannot teleport. Even if he's the highest level adventurer for miles around, he spends most of his time up north. If you're adventuring in Waterdeep you will never see him. Drizzt's portrayal in the prequels (when he was still in the Underdark) IMO showed him realistically going good when his people were evil. So, what is the problem? Eilistraee. I find it hard to believe that she would have been invented (or, if I have the timing wrong, gotten so spotlighted) if it weren't for Drizzt. Instead of a unique (or at least extremely rare) good-aligned drow, we now have a whole society of them. I read a comment that drow are written poorly, because they don't make good adventurers (in both senses of the word). I don't see drow in the Player's Handbook. That's like complaining the insane illithids (they see time differently than we do) don't make good PC.
Faraer 10-06-07, 01:40 PM	a) Game stats.Detailed stats shouldn't have been given in the first place -- Dragon #110 was the start of an unfortunate slide. What's so bad about some 3E stats that underrate them, though?b) Novel "stats". Here's the real problem. Do you use Elminster as he's shown in the game (where they have advice for why he doesn't stick his nose into things) or the way he's written in the novels (which dictate the tone of the setting)?You would have to establish some inconsistency between how Ed writes him in the sourcebooks and the novels. Only two of the Elminster novels are set in the 'present' at all; in one he's trapped in Hell, in the other he performs exactly the behind-the-scenes manipulation we know is his trade.In the novels, Storm is capable of extending her silver fire to surround a castle, preventing a malaugrym with a touch of the essence of Bane from escaping. That's not just far more powerful than most heroes... that's far more powerful than most 20th-level heroes! Never mind that this isn't reflected in the rules; how do you explain why she can't do that again?This point is important. Let's say Storm is (after living many human lifetimes) the equivalent of a 30th-level character. Such rare characters usually have the means, whether it's through personal Art or Power, magic items, or allies, of doing something comparable, and whether they're PCs or NPCs, Chosen or otherwise. The idea that 'NPCs can do things PCs can't do' is mistaken because in the Realms as it's intended to be DMed, high-level PCs equally tend to acquire abilities that aren't wholly defined by any published rules. As a DM, you don't have to explain to the players why (if) she can't do it again, only to yourself, based on the same understanding of the silver fire -- again, more complex than has seen print -- that led you to decide the action in the first place.The Simbul can single-handedly defeat the Red Wizards of Thay's armies, and can slaughter hundreds of demons in a very short period of time. At least the rumors of her disintegrating an island aren't true.Read between the lines: that's what her propaganda says, but she actually achieves it with the aid of her apprentices, Elminster, the Harpers, and other agents. But she certainly has awesome might-at-Art. Why is that bad?Elminster can't be killed because his Elminster's Evasion spell is amazingly overpowered from a writing perspective (never mind game rules) and if the author doesn't like that, Mystra can personally show up and save his behind.You mean he can't be permanently destroyed, since he's been killed several times. All mages of power guard themselves with webs of contingencies; otherwise they wouldn't survive one mortal lifetime, let alone more. Singling out Elminster is nonsensical; we merely happen to have one of his contingency spells written up because of the sources' spotlighting of him. Do you see the common thread here? Much of what you're attributing to the Chosen is either, on the one hand, common to high-level characters in the Realms, this being less obvious in the lore merely through the disproportionate attention the Chosen have got, or on the other, a trait of novel protagonists in general rather than these characters in particular.Khelben has an information network so precise he can tell when a single drow is trying to sneak into Waterdeep (even though she wasn't a spy)...There are plenty of instances in the lore where Khelben doesn't know such things, so obviously it doesn't always works that well. Do you think that even if it did, he has enough hours in the day to hear all such reports, let alone do anything about them?They're also super-competent, virtually always seeing through villains' plots.You would have a lot of trouble showing this at any greater level than is standard in fiction for intelligent protagonists, such as detectives. And, once more, you haven't said what your objection is to it anyway -- in a continent the size of North America with 60 million people.c) Realms-Shaking Events (not to be confused with the rare Realms-Shattering Events) appear too often in adventures and novels.They sure do. A drow cult is trying to bring Kiaransalee into the world? That's not just a RSE, it's the sort of thing that adventurers wouldn't realistically have a chance to stop...Wrong -- it is the sort of things adventurers can accomplish, through wits and teamwork and allies, as exemplified by the Knights of Myth Drannor, or instanced in FA1 Halls of the High King where the PCs do just that with Iyachtu Xvim.d) Deific interference. Mystra interferes too much.Nonsense; she hardly ever acts directly, as a reading of Grand History makes perfectly clear.
The Ubbergeek 10-06-07, 04:22 PM	To be a fan do not means that we are not critics against some things, like the iconics's potential issues.
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 04:30 PM	Reasons to dislike uber-NPCs. I'll use the Chosen and Drizzt as examples. I'll quickly admit I actually like Drizzt (well, most of his character; not the emo stuff). 1) The Chosen. It seems you have a problem with novels being canon...well it seems that won't be going away anytime soon. Though I disagree with all of your other points. I just never saw it that way. 2) Drizzt. I think he's cool. As stated before, he's a chain gun, not a nuclear weapon. Unlike a wizard, he cannot teleport. Even if he's the highest level adventurer for miles around, he spends most of his time up north. If you're adventuring in Waterdeep you will never see him. Again the problem with Drizzt is not with him but mostly with fan boy DMs who have him pop up everywhere. So he can be as much of the nuclear bomb then the Chosen ever where. Especialy since people like the Chosen as much for their character then their power. People like Drizzt for the fact he is 'cool' they allow him to get away with alot more. Drizzt's portrayal in the prequels (when he was still in the Underdark) IMO showed him realistically going good when his people were evil. So, what is the problem? Realisticaly????? Sorry while support that it wasn't that unrealistic it is definitly what I wouldn't call realistic. Also there times that if those book were a game he would have been dead. Eilistraee. I find it hard to believe that she would have been invented (or, if I have the timing wrong, gotten so spotlighted) if it weren't for Drizzt. Instead of a unique (or at least extremely rare) good-aligned drow, we now have a whole society of them.? Which I think is more realistic then Drizzt ever was. Eilistraee added something to the Realms that off set Drizzt's damage to Realms. People who have had concept for Drow didn't have to be considered Drizzt clones...also I am glad she was put in the spotlight as in my opinion her and her worshippers are a ton more interesting then Drizzt. They are actualy trying to help their people unlike Drizzt who just kills them. I read a comment that drow are written poorly, because they don't make good adventurers (in both senses of the word). I don't see drow in the Player's Handbook. That's like complaining the insane illithids (they see time differently than we do) don't make good PC. A good concept for a character shouldn't be based on race at all.
Faraer 10-06-07, 04:47 PM	To be a fan do not means that we are not critics against some things, like the iconics's potential issues.That's self-evident. Equally, in order to discuss such criticism, as opposed to stating our impressions noninteractively, we must be able to distinguish what's taste and preference, what can legitimately go wrong with certain combinations of play styles and setting elements, and what's ignorance or misunderstanding of sources and, in some cases, hearsay, malice, or simple logic errors.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-06-07, 11:43 PM	To be a fan do not means that we are not critics against some things, like the iconics's potential issues. I agree, but it always helps to know what you are talking about.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-06-07, 11:45 PM	Eilistraee. I find it hard to believe that she would have been invented (or, if I have the timing wrong, gotten so spotlighted) if it weren't for Drizzt. Instead of a unique (or at least extremely rare) good-aligned drow, we now have a whole society of them. I wouldn't say all Eilistraeeans constitute a "society". More importantly, why should Drizzt be the only (or one of the only) good drow? If he can see his society as evil, why couldn't other drow?
Trailstalker 10-07-07, 03:13 AM	I like Drizzt. I like Salvatore's writing. I like Drow (of all flavors). I also like the majority of the characters I've read about, from many different authors. It seems that each has something they offer, something they bring to the table, be it character concepts, storylines, etc. However much certain heroes do things in the books that normal game mechanics wouldn't generally support, I'm forced to ask the following: How many times in-game have a group of PC's either gotten very lucky or pulled something completely outrageous and unforseen (yet still do-able) and squashed your BBEG in much shorter time than you anticipated? I'm not ashamed to admit it's happened to me before. It's that particular freedom which separates pen & paper from the computer games. That's what I chalk it up to. The bottom line, for me, is that all of the characters from the books are capable of dieing in-game. Permanant death? Maybe not. But definately capable of dieing. There's always someone bigger & badder than you - and that applies to everyone. That being said, I don't subscribe to the fanboyism that can occasionally pose a problem. I like Drizzt as a character and I enjoy reading about him in the books, and maybe - just maybe - PC's may encounter him (if it's relevant to the story line). That's not to say, however, that he's Superman and is going to be there to pull the PC's bacon from the frying pan. As my Sergeants used to tell me: Stupid should hurt! In fact, I think utilizing that option just cheapens ones own characters and cheats your players. After all, the game isn't about "Drizzt, El, and Co." - it's about your own PC's on their own personal quests, goals, and achievements. Drizzt, El, The Sisters, etc are spices that add to the flavor of the game; they're not the main ingredients.