Questions about consistency? (Velsharoon, The Crown Wars, and a Nether Scroll) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Questions about consistency? (Velsharoon, The Crown Wars, and a Nether Scroll) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants
09-03-06, 11:36 AM Sorry if this is kind of a long read. I am trying to construct a campaign and I would like advice. If it seems mildly disjointed that is because I was trying to get all the information in to the post. Sorry. Thanks for any advice you may have.

My players are starting just outside the High Forest. I have put a lot of work in to getting them to create characters that fit the theme of the High Forest, Silver Marches, and the North in general so I would really rather not move the campaign. The campaign is starting on Midsummer 1374 and the town the live in has a “strong” orthodox Lathanderite presence. It is possible that the events of the Risen Sun heresy will come to influence the campaign. The PCs will be told that over the past tenday it appears that the graveyard has become haunted. There are noises, lights, some people are getting extremely scared as they walk by at night, etc (ghost sound, dancing lights, fear, silent image, etc.). In fact all of these hauntings are the work of a 5th level necromancer who worships Velsharoon. The necromancer has been ordered to find a specific tomb of an elven ranger that has been dead for 2-3 thousand years. The elven ranger was the last member of a group organized to hide existence of a series of burial grounds near the town. The town is actually a human settlement living fairly close to an elven town. The two towns are built close to the sight of a battle from the Crown Wars, in which some of the Ilythiiri were so full of hatred that they kept fighting after they should have received mortal wounds. Unable to fully destroy these warriors, the “good” elves eventually chained them together and buried them as undead. They were bound in such a way that they have been unable to unbury themselves over the last 10,000 years. The rangers were tasked with making sure that they didn't see the light of the world ever again. After thousands of years of vigilance the group ceased to exist. Knowledge was not passed on, Elves forgot specifics about the Crown Wars, etc. The last ranger was buried with a moonblade and Telkiira tied to the order of rangers instead of a specific elven house. In essence, the order was a house. The Telkiira possesses all ten memories.
1)The battle in which the warriors became undead and kept fighting.
2)The burial and binding of the undead.
3-9) Memories of the locations of the burial sights and roughly how do get to them.
10) A plea/request from the last ranger asking whoever finds the Telkiira to continue his work and not allow the undead to escape.

The undead are evolved wights with fighter class levels and a curse that doesn't allow them to die (similar to a lich or ghost). A level 15 or so necromancer of Velsharoon has found information about these undead and hopes that he can use them to spread the word of Velsharoon and study the specifics of their unique matter of undeath. The higher level necromancer has also found rumors of one of the Nether Scrolls in Southern Anauroch and is currently excavating a tomb of an arcanist from Low Netheril. He is having trouble clearing the tomb of traps and thinks that the undead warriors would be a great help. He has therefore sent an entomber to help the minor necromancer speed up his research. The entomber arrived a tenday ago and therefore the necromancer has needed to keep the graveyard and other burial sights clear at night so the entomber can “search” the graves. The ranger's actual burial sight is not in the graveyard, and eventually the necromancer will realize that and start exploring the nearby forest. The necromancer has been in the town for about 2 years collecting rumors about the ranger and has not really gotten anywhere for fear of being discovered. The arrival of the entomber has required him to completely change his method of searching.

I kind of see a few problems with this after doing some more research myself. First the Ilythiiri were no where near as far north as the High Forest. Since Correlon felt it was necessary to punish all of the dark elves, not just those of the Ilythiiri, could it be conceivable that some of the dark elves of Miyeritar turned to Lolth sometime during the Second Crown War and not during or after the Descent? If not does anyone have suggestions for how I should rework the back story for the adventure. What actual empire should the “good” elves be, or does it really matter? Does the entire concept make sense withing the Forgotten Realms? I know.. Its my campaign so I can do what I want, but I want it all to make sense with the published Forgotten Realms. Is there anything that doesn't make sense, needs elaborated on, or should just be dropped?
thorchilde
09-03-06, 01:17 PM This idea sounds plausible. I think that your idea about Miyeritar elves would be plausible, as the Ilythirri used their subjugation as an excuse for their depravity. It is likely that their were ambassadors or allied houses.
Another idea is to use Vyshaanti elves as the ghosts. They certainly would not have gone quietly into the night. Well hope that I have helped.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants
09-04-06, 09:21 PM Is there somewhere else to post this where it may get a few mroe responses?

From what I read of the Vyshaanti they weren't that bad until the third Crown War, and even then did they hate anybody that much. I kind of think that the dark drow, especially if they worship Lolth, would be morely likely.
Bloodtide_the_Red
09-04-06, 11:56 PM --First the Ilythiiri were no where near as far north as the High Forest.
True, but there were dark elves in Miyeritar. And Miyeritar was wiped out by Aryvandaar in the Dark Disaster. Now some dark elves may have made it out, maybe a handful, and went for revenge in Aryvandaar. Would sure fill them with hate having thier whole 'world' destroied. And Moander or Ghaundar fits a bit better then the (over used) Lolth.

I don't see how old elven undead 'spread the word of Velsharoon', but you can just make your necromancer crazy.

And maybe a group of paliadins would be better guardians of undead tombs.

In all this fits in fine with 'Realmslore', as I see it.

BT
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants
09-05-06, 08:42 AM --First the Ilythiiri were no where near as far north as the High Forest.
True, but there were dark elves in Miyeritar. And Miyeritar was wiped out by Aryvandaar in the Dark Disaster. Now some dark elves may have made it out, maybe a handful, and went for revenge in Aryvandaar. Would sure fill them with hate having thier whole 'world' destroied. And Moander or Ghaundar fits a bit better then the (over used) Lolth.

Ghaundar fits better now that you bring him up. But that really doesn't change much. Thanks for the second "approval" of using the dark elves of the Miyeritar.

I don't see how old elven undead 'spread the word of Velsharoon', but you can just make your necromancer crazy.

BT

Yeah, mostly he's not quite sane. He believes that having these ancient "powerful" undead on his side will show the power of undeath, thus drawing more worshippers. He also believes that he can force them in to "helping" him in some way.

And maybe a group of paliadins would be better guardians of undead tombs.

I was thinking about the Everaskan Tomb guards when I was creating these guardians. That and all the elven dieties are chaotic, so elven paladins don't work that well unless they worship a human god, and since the order starts during the crown wars, I'd think that the elves stick to the seldarine.

In all this fits in fine with 'Realmslore', as I see it.

BT
Thanks for all your advice/suggestions.
Zanan
09-06-06, 06:01 AM Vendui!

Well, we actually don't know that much about Miyeritar and the dominant religions. I would assume that most of the Seldarine deities were venerated, including Eilistraee (as it was one of her main centres of worship pre-Descent) - much like every sort of deity might be worshipped in a realm like Cormyr these days. State-religion as such might not have existed. Thus, there might have been a few followers of Lolth, Ghaunadaur, or Vhaeraun, though perhaps no prominent ones. At least not in the sense that they provoked the northern sunelves to unleash the Dark Disaster upon them. This was canonized as being part of the imperialist strategy of the Aryvandaar Empire (Vyshaan and all) who wanted to subdue their southern neighbours once and for all. The effect got a bit out of hand though.
In any case, it is quite conceivable that those dark elves driven underground by the Descent had been easy prey for the Lolthite "missionaries", as thousands of dark elves died during this period at the "hands" of the not-so-comfortable Underdark environment. Much of the drow's hatred of their surface kin might well be nailed down to these events and may explain the seething attacks by the drow on the elves soon after.
Velsharoon ... actually, it is hard to say when the respective human deities arrived on the scene, as the humans play no big part in during the times of the Crown Wars. Which is not to say that they weren't about. But others will know more on that topic.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants
09-06-06, 08:32 AM Vendui!

Well, we actually don't know that much about Miyeritar and the dominant religions. I would assume that most of the Seldarine deities were venerated, including Eilistraee (as it was one of her main centres of worship pre-Descent) - much like every sort of deity might be worshipped in a realm like Cormyr these days. State-religion as such might not have existed. Thus, there might have been a few followers of Lolth, Ghaunadaur, or Vhaeraun, though perhaps no prominent ones. At least not in the sense that they provoked the northern sunelves to unleash the Dark Disaster upon them. This was canonized as being part of the imperialist strategy of the Aryvandaar Empire (Vyshaan and all) who wanted to subdue their southern neighbours once and for all. The effect got a bit out of hand though.
They way I've read the canon from LEoF is that the Vyshaan were instructed/encouraged by a fallen solar.

In any case, it is quite conceivable that those dark elves driven underground by the Descent had been easy prey for the Lolthite "missionaries", as thousands of dark elves died during this period at the "hands" of the not-so-comfortable Underdark environment. Much of the drow's hatred of their surface kin might well be nailed down to these events and may explain the seething attacks by the drow on the elves soon after.
Velsharoon ... actually, it is hard to say when the respective human deities arrived on the scene, as the humans play no big part in during the times of the Crown Wars. Which is not to say that they weren't about. But others will know more on that topic.

I'm not trying to tie the actual transformation in to wights to any god. It was just their pure hatred at their foes that allowed them to keep fighting once they should have died. In fact any question of religion is purely academic since it really won't play through on the wights at all. There won't be any priests of anything. The necromancer of Velsharoon is just trying to use the wights as they exist now to further the cause of Velsharoon. Nobody thinks they were created or had any tie to Velsharoon. Velsharoon is in fact a fairly recent god.
Zanan
09-06-06, 11:52 AM They way I've read the canon from LEoF is that the Vyshaan were instructed/encouraged by a fallen solar.

Right. Some most likely were, yet a) "it takes two" as the saying goes, and b ) the empire existed quite a long time and corrupting the leaders alone will not lead a whole empire into the depravity shown by the Vyshaan. (Just goading, Gothic Dan, just goading ;) )
GothicDan
09-07-06, 02:44 PM b ) the empire existed quite a long time and corrupting the leaders alone will not lead a whole empire into the depravity shown by the Vyshaan. (Just goading, Gothic Dan, just goading )

Going by LEoF's timeline, Aryvandaar was marked in no way more depraved, wicked, militaristic, aggressive, or greedy than any other Elven kingdom, until the Vyshaanti ordered the attempted annexation of Miyeritar (citing royal ties to the throne); the attempt was peaceful for 100 years before any violence was started.

Even after this initial incident, we have little to no cases of Aryvandaari actually behaving in depraved or corrupt ways, and many cases citing specifically the Vyshaanti as the sources of corruption (such as in Cormanthyr when it specifically says that the Vyshaanti, and no one else, were those ordered executed by the rest of the gathered Elven nations).

And Elaine Cunningham pointed out her opinion that it was specifically the Vyshaanti that were corrupted, not Aryvandaar in general, in marked contrast to Ilythiir, which had no single ruling corrupted force that could be 'blamed' for the Ilythiiri's march into depravity. So far, both Cormanthyr and LEoF seem to support this opinion. (Not that it couldn't stand on its own, provided it wasn't contradicted, given its source. ;) )

So, in conclusion: what depravity are you talking about, outside of the Vyshaanti? :)
Rasputen_Bel_Kuhr
09-10-06, 05:39 PM -Going by LEoF's timeline, Aryvandaar was marked in no way more depraved, -wicked, militaristic, aggressive, or greedy than any other Elven kingdom, until -the Vyshaanti ordered the attempted annexation of Miyeritar (citing royal ties -to the throne); the attempt was peaceful for 100 years before any violence -was started.

while the main act of depravity was the forced annexation of miyeritar you can bet that there was build up and espionage leading up to it - people don't just wake up and think i'll be evil today (unless they're insane or already evil)
GothicDan
09-10-06, 09:26 PM Not unless the Vyshaanti didn't rule until then, which as far as we can tell, they didn't.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 09-03-06, 11:36 AM	Sorry if this is kind of a long read. I am trying to construct a campaign and I would like advice. If it seems mildly disjointed that is because I was trying to get all the information in to the post. Sorry. Thanks for any advice you may have. My players are starting just outside the High Forest. I have put a lot of work in to getting them to create characters that fit the theme of the High Forest, Silver Marches, and the North in general so I would really rather not move the campaign. The campaign is starting on Midsummer 1374 and the town the live in has a “strong” orthodox Lathanderite presence. It is possible that the events of the Risen Sun heresy will come to influence the campaign. The PCs will be told that over the past tenday it appears that the graveyard has become haunted. There are noises, lights, some people are getting extremely scared as they walk by at night, etc (ghost sound, dancing lights, fear, silent image, etc.). In fact all of these hauntings are the work of a 5th level necromancer who worships Velsharoon. The necromancer has been ordered to find a specific tomb of an elven ranger that has been dead for 2-3 thousand years. The elven ranger was the last member of a group organized to hide existence of a series of burial grounds near the town. The town is actually a human settlement living fairly close to an elven town. The two towns are built close to the sight of a battle from the Crown Wars, in which some of the Ilythiiri were so full of hatred that they kept fighting after they should have received mortal wounds. Unable to fully destroy these warriors, the “good” elves eventually chained them together and buried them as undead. They were bound in such a way that they have been unable to unbury themselves over the last 10,000 years. The rangers were tasked with making sure that they didn't see the light of the world ever again. After thousands of years of vigilance the group ceased to exist. Knowledge was not passed on, Elves forgot specifics about the Crown Wars, etc. The last ranger was buried with a moonblade and Telkiira tied to the order of rangers instead of a specific elven house. In essence, the order was a house. The Telkiira possesses all ten memories. 1)The battle in which the warriors became undead and kept fighting. 2)The burial and binding of the undead. 3-9) Memories of the locations of the burial sights and roughly how do get to them. 10) A plea/request from the last ranger asking whoever finds the Telkiira to continue his work and not allow the undead to escape. The undead are evolved wights with fighter class levels and a curse that doesn't allow them to die (similar to a lich or ghost). A level 15 or so necromancer of Velsharoon has found information about these undead and hopes that he can use them to spread the word of Velsharoon and study the specifics of their unique matter of undeath. The higher level necromancer has also found rumors of one of the Nether Scrolls in Southern Anauroch and is currently excavating a tomb of an arcanist from Low Netheril. He is having trouble clearing the tomb of traps and thinks that the undead warriors would be a great help. He has therefore sent an entomber to help the minor necromancer speed up his research. The entomber arrived a tenday ago and therefore the necromancer has needed to keep the graveyard and other burial sights clear at night so the entomber can “search” the graves. The ranger's actual burial sight is not in the graveyard, and eventually the necromancer will realize that and start exploring the nearby forest. The necromancer has been in the town for about 2 years collecting rumors about the ranger and has not really gotten anywhere for fear of being discovered. The arrival of the entomber has required him to completely change his method of searching. I kind of see a few problems with this after doing some more research myself. First the Ilythiiri were no where near as far north as the High Forest. Since Correlon felt it was necessary to punish all of the dark elves, not just those of the Ilythiiri, could it be conceivable that some of the dark elves of Miyeritar turned to Lolth sometime during the Second Crown War and not during or after the Descent? If not does anyone have suggestions for how I should rework the back story for the adventure. What actual empire should the “good” elves be, or does it really matter? Does the entire concept make sense withing the Forgotten Realms? I know.. Its my campaign so I can do what I want, but I want it all to make sense with the published Forgotten Realms. Is there anything that doesn't make sense, needs elaborated on, or should just be dropped?
thorchilde 09-03-06, 01:17 PM	This idea sounds plausible. I think that your idea about Miyeritar elves would be plausible, as the Ilythirri used their subjugation as an excuse for their depravity. It is likely that their were ambassadors or allied houses. Another idea is to use Vyshaanti elves as the ghosts. They certainly would not have gone quietly into the night. Well hope that I have helped.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 09-04-06, 09:21 PM	Is there somewhere else to post this where it may get a few mroe responses? From what I read of the Vyshaanti they weren't that bad until the third Crown War, and even then did they hate anybody that much. I kind of think that the dark drow, especially if they worship Lolth, would be morely likely.
Bloodtide_the_Red 09-04-06, 11:56 PM	--First the Ilythiiri were no where near as far north as the High Forest. True, but there were dark elves in Miyeritar. And Miyeritar was wiped out by Aryvandaar in the Dark Disaster. Now some dark elves may have made it out, maybe a handful, and went for revenge in Aryvandaar. Would sure fill them with hate having thier whole 'world' destroied. And Moander or Ghaundar fits a bit better then the (over used) Lolth. I don't see how old elven undead 'spread the word of Velsharoon', but you can just make your necromancer crazy. And maybe a group of paliadins would be better guardians of undead tombs. In all this fits in fine with 'Realmslore', as I see it. BT
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 09-05-06, 08:42 AM	--First the Ilythiiri were no where near as far north as the High Forest. True, but there were dark elves in Miyeritar. And Miyeritar was wiped out by Aryvandaar in the Dark Disaster. Now some dark elves may have made it out, maybe a handful, and went for revenge in Aryvandaar. Would sure fill them with hate having thier whole 'world' destroied. And Moander or Ghaundar fits a bit better then the (over used) Lolth. Ghaundar fits better now that you bring him up. But that really doesn't change much. Thanks for the second "approval" of using the dark elves of the Miyeritar. I don't see how old elven undead 'spread the word of Velsharoon', but you can just make your necromancer crazy. BT Yeah, mostly he's not quite sane. He believes that having these ancient "powerful" undead on his side will show the power of undeath, thus drawing more worshippers. He also believes that he can force them in to "helping" him in some way. And maybe a group of paliadins would be better guardians of undead tombs. I was thinking about the Everaskan Tomb guards when I was creating these guardians. That and all the elven dieties are chaotic, so elven paladins don't work that well unless they worship a human god, and since the order starts during the crown wars, I'd think that the elves stick to the seldarine. In all this fits in fine with 'Realmslore', as I see it. BT Thanks for all your advice/suggestions.
Zanan 09-06-06, 06:01 AM	Vendui! Well, we actually don't know that much about Miyeritar and the dominant religions. I would assume that most of the Seldarine deities were venerated, including Eilistraee (as it was one of her main centres of worship pre-Descent) - much like every sort of deity might be worshipped in a realm like Cormyr these days. State-religion as such might not have existed. Thus, there might have been a few followers of Lolth, Ghaunadaur, or Vhaeraun, though perhaps no prominent ones. At least not in the sense that they provoked the northern sunelves to unleash the Dark Disaster upon them. This was canonized as being part of the imperialist strategy of the Aryvandaar Empire (Vyshaan and all) who wanted to subdue their southern neighbours once and for all. The effect got a bit out of hand though. In any case, it is quite conceivable that those dark elves driven underground by the Descent had been easy prey for the Lolthite "missionaries", as thousands of dark elves died during this period at the "hands" of the not-so-comfortable Underdark environment. Much of the drow's hatred of their surface kin might well be nailed down to these events and may explain the seething attacks by the drow on the elves soon after. Velsharoon ... actually, it is hard to say when the respective human deities arrived on the scene, as the humans play no big part in during the times of the Crown Wars. Which is not to say that they weren't about. But others will know more on that topic.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 09-06-06, 08:32 AM	Vendui! Well, we actually don't know that much about Miyeritar and the dominant religions. I would assume that most of the Seldarine deities were venerated, including Eilistraee (as it was one of her main centres of worship pre-Descent) - much like every sort of deity might be worshipped in a realm like Cormyr these days. State-religion as such might not have existed. Thus, there might have been a few followers of Lolth, Ghaunadaur, or Vhaeraun, though perhaps no prominent ones. At least not in the sense that they provoked the northern sunelves to unleash the Dark Disaster upon them. This was canonized as being part of the imperialist strategy of the Aryvandaar Empire (Vyshaan and all) who wanted to subdue their southern neighbours once and for all. The effect got a bit out of hand though. They way I've read the canon from LEoF is that the Vyshaan were instructed/encouraged by a fallen solar. In any case, it is quite conceivable that those dark elves driven underground by the Descent had been easy prey for the Lolthite "missionaries", as thousands of dark elves died during this period at the "hands" of the not-so-comfortable Underdark environment. Much of the drow's hatred of their surface kin might well be nailed down to these events and may explain the seething attacks by the drow on the elves soon after. Velsharoon ... actually, it is hard to say when the respective human deities arrived on the scene, as the humans play no big part in during the times of the Crown Wars. Which is not to say that they weren't about. But others will know more on that topic. I'm not trying to tie the actual transformation in to wights to any god. It was just their pure hatred at their foes that allowed them to keep fighting once they should have died. In fact any question of religion is purely academic since it really won't play through on the wights at all. There won't be any priests of anything. The necromancer of Velsharoon is just trying to use the wights as they exist now to further the cause of Velsharoon. Nobody thinks they were created or had any tie to Velsharoon. Velsharoon is in fact a fairly recent god.
Zanan 09-06-06, 11:52 AM	They way I've read the canon from LEoF is that the Vyshaan were instructed/encouraged by a fallen solar. Right. Some most likely were, yet a) "it takes two" as the saying goes, and b ) the empire existed quite a long time and corrupting the leaders alone will not lead a whole empire into the depravity shown by the Vyshaan. (Just goading, Gothic Dan, just goading ;) )
GothicDan 09-07-06, 02:44 PM	b ) the empire existed quite a long time and corrupting the leaders alone will not lead a whole empire into the depravity shown by the Vyshaan. (Just goading, Gothic Dan, just goading ) Going by LEoF's timeline, Aryvandaar was marked in no way more depraved, wicked, militaristic, aggressive, or greedy than any other Elven kingdom, until the Vyshaanti ordered the attempted annexation of Miyeritar (citing royal ties to the throne); the attempt was peaceful for 100 years before any violence was started. Even after this initial incident, we have little to no cases of Aryvandaari actually behaving in depraved or corrupt ways, and many cases citing specifically the Vyshaanti as the sources of corruption (such as in Cormanthyr when it specifically says that the Vyshaanti, and no one else, were those ordered executed by the rest of the gathered Elven nations). And Elaine Cunningham pointed out her opinion that it was specifically the Vyshaanti that were corrupted, not Aryvandaar in general, in marked contrast to Ilythiir, which had no single ruling corrupted force that could be 'blamed' for the Ilythiiri's march into depravity. So far, both Cormanthyr and LEoF seem to support this opinion. (Not that it couldn't stand on its own, provided it wasn't contradicted, given its source. ;) ) So, in conclusion: what depravity are you talking about, outside of the Vyshaanti? :)
Rasputen_Bel_Kuhr 09-10-06, 05:39 PM	-Going by LEoF's timeline, Aryvandaar was marked in no way more depraved, -wicked, militaristic, aggressive, or greedy than any other Elven kingdom, until -the Vyshaanti ordered the attempted annexation of Miyeritar (citing royal ties -to the throne); the attempt was peaceful for 100 years before any violence -was started. while the main act of depravity was the forced annexation of miyeritar you can bet that there was build up and espionage leading up to it - people don't just wake up and think i'll be evil today (unless they're insane or already evil)
GothicDan 09-10-06, 09:26 PM	Not unless the Vyshaanti didn't rule until then, which as far as we can tell, they didn't.