[RDM] Bringing back Myth Adofhaer [Archive] - Wizards Community

[RDM] Bringing back Myth Adofhaer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sillaric_culdanin
10-25-07, 06:58 PM Alright, here's a quicky for anyone familiar with politics in the North. One of the background patrons for my current tabletop FR group means to refound Earlann... but he also wants to expand its control over all the land once controlled by the Tel'Quessir. In an effort to bring more elves into the fold he has found a way to return Myth Adofhaer to out of stasis.

My question is, what short and long-term political ramifications would this entail? I have a number of thoughts on it (especially with one of my players playing as a Vyshan descendant) but would love some other DMs takes on it. Also, it would be useful if anyone happens to know how many souls took the long nap when the city went away... are we talking 100 sun elves? 1000? 50000? That's it... like I said its a quick one this time.
johnkretzer
10-26-07, 04:36 AM Alright, here's a quicky for anyone familiar with politics in the North. One of the background patrons for my current tabletop FR group means to refound Earlann... but he also wants to expand its control over all the land once controlled by the Tel'Quessir. In an effort to bring more elves into the fold he has found a way to return Myth Adofhaer to out of stasis.

My question is, what short and long-term political ramifications would this entail? I have a number of thoughts on it (especially with one of my players playing as a Vyshan descendant) but would love some other DMs takes on it. Also, it would be useful if anyone happens to know how many souls took the long nap when the city went away... are we talking 100 sun elves? 1000? 50000? That's it... like I said its a quick one this time.

OK just quick question what is the time frame of this event?

I have some ideas but need to know the year this might be happening..also need to consult my tomes on other things.
selunatic2397
10-26-07, 04:06 PM I just finished up doing that in my campaign...great minds think alike! :)

I dropped it in the forest just north of Waterdeep...

I gave my players a guesstimate of 5000 good aligned sun elves [in honor of GothicDan :cheer: ] and about an equal amount of other elves...

I figured it was a large city, but not all of the citizens would have opted to sleep off the coming centuries without a fixed wake up call.

Hope that helped you out!
sillaric_culdanin
10-26-07, 07:40 PM Thanks Selunatic!

John, we're looking at probably late 1375 to as far off as maybe 1377ish, does that help?
Krash
10-26-07, 11:47 PM They wouldn't get along. Not at all.

-- George Krashos
johnkretzer
10-27-07, 06:04 AM Thanks Selunatic!

John, we're looking at probably late 1375 to as far off as maybe 1377ish, does that help?

Well for one thing as I understand it the events of the Orc King happen in 1371 or 1373. So if you go with this event in your game.

So they would be coming back right as the orcs kingdom is being established. Alot of misunderstanding can happen...

While I am against the genererl idea of the orc kingdom being established there at this particular time it. It seems for your game they could be alot of intrigue and skirmishes in that general area as a result of it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-27-07, 09:12 PM Regarding the Vyshaan descendant--does he go around telling people that he descended from that House, making it common knowledge? If not, there's no reason why anyone (especially elves who had just come out of millenia-long stasis) would be aware of his heritage.

Of course, I'm hoping I'm understanding this scenario correctly--I may not be.:)
sillaric_culdanin
10-30-07, 04:10 AM They wouldn't get along. Not at all.

-- George Krashos

Ahhhh, Krash, thanks for the tidbit... could you elaborate a bit or does the evil NDA have you held against your will? Did you mean that the gold elves wouldn't get along with a Vyshann heir or that the gold elves in Adofhaer wouldn't get along with a kingdom of predominantly moon and wood elves?

Regarding the Vyshaan descendant--does he go around telling people that he descended from that House, making it common knowledge? If not, there's no reason why anyone (especially elves who had just come out of millenia-long stasis) would be aware of his heritage.

Of course, I'm hoping I'm understanding this scenario correctly--I may not be.:)

By no means. He just found out from their patron and he doesn't really know what it means yet (he grew on the streets with no access to elven society). So, you are right in that they wouldn't have any way to know of his heritage... I was more referring to what would when/if they do find out :).

John,

In my game the Orc Kingdom has been established and firming up for a couple of years (I'm using Obould as the patron that sends the group on the Sons of Gruumsh adventure which I've set in the Nether Mountains). That's a very valid point... I can't imagine that a city of snooty Sun Elves would take kindly to Obould's lot at all... really not at all. :]
johnkretzer
10-30-07, 04:15 PM In my game the Orc Kingdom has been established and firming up for a couple of years (I'm using Obould as the patron that sends the group on the Sons of Gruumsh adventure which I've set in the Nether Mountains). That's a very valid point... I can't imagine that a city of snooty Sun Elves would take kindly to Obould's lot at all... really not at all. :]

Though I wouldn't play them as bad guys...just a little behind the times. It is alot more interesting if there is no bad guys in the scenario. Though that is just my take on it. Heck in a ironic light they could be fractions on both sides working together to start a war...throw in a third group(either the Zhentarim or worshippers of Cyric or even the Kraken Society...)any group that would benefit from the North destablizing. And you would have your villians.
Owlperson2007
10-30-07, 07:51 PM Alright, here's a quicky for anyone familiar with politics in the North. One of the background patrons for my current tabletop FR group means to refound Earlann... but he also wants to expand its control over all the land once controlled by the Tel'Quessir. In an effort to bring more elves into the fold he has found a way to return Myth Adofhaer to out of stasis.

My question is, what short and long-term political ramifications would this entail? I have a number of thoughts on it (especially with one of my players playing as a Vyshan descendant) but would love some other DMs takes on it. Also, it would be useful if anyone happens to know how many souls took the long nap when the city went away... are we talking 100 sun elves? 1000? 50000? That's it... like I said its a quick one this time.

I am not familiar with the setting but will try to answer this from the viewpoint of someone who has worked in top-flight politics for twenty years :).

Refounding a city or state is always dangerous, because you get the problems that the world has moved on at least fifty to a hundred years since the statelet disappeared and thus the glory days may only be remembered by a few people - if that - and have little resonance with modern peoples. If the state is splitting off from a larger entity such as what happened with the Baltic States, what should be considered is the relationship between the territory in question and the new statelet, given that it has necessarily been founded on land that the mother country "owns"...or borrowed illegally in the first place, but has since established a presence. Gorbachev sent the tanks into Vilnius (Lithuania), for instance, in 1991, thus destroying the Soviet Union itself. So you also have to consider the ramifications in the territory on which the state has been refounded.

With the Baltic States you also had the problem that the original states had more or less dissolved into quasi-fascist dictatorships and too dangerously close to the Soviet Union for Stalin's comfort. In time of war they were invaded and neutralised and perhaps a good thing too, otherwise they may have become Axis powers in their own right. The Soviet occupation of them at the end of the war was just as illegal as is the current American occupation of Iraq, but try finding anyone who will dispute this at the moment. Refounding the Baltic States was therefore dangerous in two ways - the Soviet occupiers could point to justifiable fears that the inter-war constitutions, if resurrected, could revive fascism in Europe and that national elites were therefore crypto-fascists in their own right. The temptations in post-communist Europe have always been towards on one hand pro-authoritarian monarchists on the one hand and modernising democrats on the other, and has produced tensions in more than one country, Yugoslavia being only the most brutal example of historical states trying to refound each other on each other's territory. Some principalities such as Kosovo had not had independent existences since the Middle Ages.

In your case, the patron must be someone like Tito or a benign version of Stalin - but these adventures very rarely end up without some kind of bloodshed. At the very least expansion into territory not originally part of the historical state (such as the Pechory district of Russia still claimed by Estonia as part of the inter-war state, and Moldavia with a large Ukrainian minority on the left bank of the Dnistr now claimed by Romania despite this "Transdnistrian Republic" not being part of the inter-war state) would cause a minor war, possibly with casualties numbering closer to 100,000 than even 50,000. (EDIT: I've read the OP and some of the other posts and it seems I misread that bit. Never mind, the casualty figures would be the same anyway - mass slaughter over territory usually does not vary from world to world.)

Look up any history of Eastern Europe and what it produced in the modern era. At the very least this is going to have Yugoslav-style repercussions, because if I have heard anything about sun elves they are all fascists to a "man" and would stop at nothing to impose a Greater Sunelfia over most of the other elves. Anything that wipes them out gets my vote, but sadly that might too be considered genocide and a peaceful political solution might be to convince your patron not to bother with the whole enterprise.
GothicDan
10-30-07, 09:14 PM Not all Sun Elves are fascists. In fact, I think one of the reasons they "appear" Lawful at times, is because they take their (Chaotic) ability of CHOICE, granted to them by Corellon, so SERIOUSLY.

Of course, statistically (from what we have as far as NPCs go), Sun Elves DO tend towards having more Lawful alignments - but that's hardly a 'rule.' Overall, official canon, I'd say they 'balance out' around NG (though I'd play them as hard core LG in my own games).

Wipe them out? Never. I'm a huge fan of the Roman Empire, the principate under Augustus, and libertarian elitism. ;) Mmm, Switzerland.

PS: I apologize; I totally forgot this was a RDM thread. In my joy over discussing something so close to my heart, I got overexcited. No more in the future! Carry on.
Lord Karsus
10-31-07, 01:22 PM -Don't being the city back. The Realms need a few ancient mysteries left. :(

-Everywhere you look, lately, some ancient and far flung culture is making a comeback.
Krash
11-03-07, 03:20 AM Ahhhh, Krash, thanks for the tidbit... could you elaborate a bit or does the evil NDA have you held against your will? Did you mean that the gold elves wouldn't get along with a Vyshann heir or that the gold elves in Adofhaer wouldn't get along with a kingdom of predominantly moon and wood elves?

Both. "Lost Empires of Faerūn" (p.84 - timeline entry) tells you why Myth Adofhaer was shunted into another plane/dimension by its High Mages. They didn't want to be a part of a Siluvanede that had dealings with the fey'ri, but quite obviously didn't want to be kowtowing to the upstart moon elves of Eaerlann.

Oh, and no-one elven wants to be associated with the Vyshaan.

-- George Krashos
Zanan
11-03-07, 04:20 AM Oh, and no-one elven wants to be associated with the Vyshaan.
-- George Krashos

Then again, it would be good for a balanced view on the race as such if you would find a few "black sheep" amongst them, "sheep" like the Eldreth Veluuthra (sp?). Quite a number of figures in the Last Mythal series present themselves in quite a different manner than the archetypical/stereotypical type of elf and one would hope this will continue in upcoming game material. As in: every race should have its very own dark side, even it is only dark gray and not jet-black (and pointy eared).
johnkretzer
11-09-07, 06:48 PM Just wondering how it is going?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sillaric_culdanin 10-25-07, 06:58 PM	Alright, here's a quicky for anyone familiar with politics in the North. One of the background patrons for my current tabletop FR group means to refound Earlann... but he also wants to expand its control over all the land once controlled by the Tel'Quessir. In an effort to bring more elves into the fold he has found a way to return Myth Adofhaer to out of stasis. My question is, what short and long-term political ramifications would this entail? I have a number of thoughts on it (especially with one of my players playing as a Vyshan descendant) but would love some other DMs takes on it. Also, it would be useful if anyone happens to know how many souls took the long nap when the city went away... are we talking 100 sun elves? 1000? 50000? That's it... like I said its a quick one this time.
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 04:36 AM	Alright, here's a quicky for anyone familiar with politics in the North. One of the background patrons for my current tabletop FR group means to refound Earlann... but he also wants to expand its control over all the land once controlled by the Tel'Quessir. In an effort to bring more elves into the fold he has found a way to return Myth Adofhaer to out of stasis. My question is, what short and long-term political ramifications would this entail? I have a number of thoughts on it (especially with one of my players playing as a Vyshan descendant) but would love some other DMs takes on it. Also, it would be useful if anyone happens to know how many souls took the long nap when the city went away... are we talking 100 sun elves? 1000? 50000? That's it... like I said its a quick one this time. OK just quick question what is the time frame of this event? I have some ideas but need to know the year this might be happening..also need to consult my tomes on other things.
selunatic2397 10-26-07, 04:06 PM	I just finished up doing that in my campaign...great minds think alike! :) I dropped it in the forest just north of Waterdeep... I gave my players a guesstimate of 5000 good aligned sun elves [in honor of GothicDan :cheer: ] and about an equal amount of other elves... I figured it was a large city, but not all of the citizens would have opted to sleep off the coming centuries without a fixed wake up call. Hope that helped you out!
sillaric_culdanin 10-26-07, 07:40 PM	Thanks Selunatic! John, we're looking at probably late 1375 to as far off as maybe 1377ish, does that help?
Krash 10-26-07, 11:47 PM	They wouldn't get along. Not at all. -- George Krashos
johnkretzer 10-27-07, 06:04 AM	Thanks Selunatic! John, we're looking at probably late 1375 to as far off as maybe 1377ish, does that help? Well for one thing as I understand it the events of the Orc King happen in 1371 or 1373. So if you go with this event in your game. So they would be coming back right as the orcs kingdom is being established. Alot of misunderstanding can happen... While I am against the genererl idea of the orc kingdom being established there at this particular time it. It seems for your game they could be alot of intrigue and skirmishes in that general area as a result of it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-27-07, 09:12 PM	Regarding the Vyshaan descendant--does he go around telling people that he descended from that House, making it common knowledge? If not, there's no reason why anyone (especially elves who had just come out of millenia-long stasis) would be aware of his heritage. Of course, I'm hoping I'm understanding this scenario correctly--I may not be.:)
sillaric_culdanin 10-30-07, 04:10 AM	They wouldn't get along. Not at all. -- George Krashos Ahhhh, Krash, thanks for the tidbit... could you elaborate a bit or does the evil NDA have you held against your will? Did you mean that the gold elves wouldn't get along with a Vyshann heir or that the gold elves in Adofhaer wouldn't get along with a kingdom of predominantly moon and wood elves? Regarding the Vyshaan descendant--does he go around telling people that he descended from that House, making it common knowledge? If not, there's no reason why anyone (especially elves who had just come out of millenia-long stasis) would be aware of his heritage. Of course, I'm hoping I'm understanding this scenario correctly--I may not be.:) By no means. He just found out from their patron and he doesn't really know what it means yet (he grew on the streets with no access to elven society). So, you are right in that they wouldn't have any way to know of his heritage... I was more referring to what would when/if they do find out :). John, In my game the Orc Kingdom has been established and firming up for a couple of years (I'm using Obould as the patron that sends the group on the Sons of Gruumsh adventure which I've set in the Nether Mountains). That's a very valid point... I can't imagine that a city of snooty Sun Elves would take kindly to Obould's lot at all... really not at all. :]
johnkretzer 10-30-07, 04:15 PM	In my game the Orc Kingdom has been established and firming up for a couple of years (I'm using Obould as the patron that sends the group on the Sons of Gruumsh adventure which I've set in the Nether Mountains). That's a very valid point... I can't imagine that a city of snooty Sun Elves would take kindly to Obould's lot at all... really not at all. :] Though I wouldn't play them as bad guys...just a little behind the times. It is alot more interesting if there is no bad guys in the scenario. Though that is just my take on it. Heck in a ironic light they could be fractions on both sides working together to start a war...throw in a third group(either the Zhentarim or worshippers of Cyric or even the Kraken Society...)any group that would benefit from the North destablizing. And you would have your villians.
Owlperson2007 10-30-07, 07:51 PM	Alright, here's a quicky for anyone familiar with politics in the North. One of the background patrons for my current tabletop FR group means to refound Earlann... but he also wants to expand its control over all the land once controlled by the Tel'Quessir. In an effort to bring more elves into the fold he has found a way to return Myth Adofhaer to out of stasis. My question is, what short and long-term political ramifications would this entail? I have a number of thoughts on it (especially with one of my players playing as a Vyshan descendant) but would love some other DMs takes on it. Also, it would be useful if anyone happens to know how many souls took the long nap when the city went away... are we talking 100 sun elves? 1000? 50000? That's it... like I said its a quick one this time. I am not familiar with the setting but will try to answer this from the viewpoint of someone who has worked in top-flight politics for twenty years :). Refounding a city or state is always dangerous, because you get the problems that the world has moved on at least fifty to a hundred years since the statelet disappeared and thus the glory days may only be remembered by a few people - if that - and have little resonance with modern peoples. If the state is splitting off from a larger entity such as what happened with the Baltic States, what should be considered is the relationship between the territory in question and the new statelet, given that it has necessarily been founded on land that the mother country "owns"...or borrowed illegally in the first place, but has since established a presence. Gorbachev sent the tanks into Vilnius (Lithuania), for instance, in 1991, thus destroying the Soviet Union itself. So you also have to consider the ramifications in the territory on which the state has been refounded. With the Baltic States you also had the problem that the original states had more or less dissolved into quasi-fascist dictatorships and too dangerously close to the Soviet Union for Stalin's comfort. In time of war they were invaded and neutralised and perhaps a good thing too, otherwise they may have become Axis powers in their own right. The Soviet occupation of them at the end of the war was just as illegal as is the current American occupation of Iraq, but try finding anyone who will dispute this at the moment. Refounding the Baltic States was therefore dangerous in two ways - the Soviet occupiers could point to justifiable fears that the inter-war constitutions, if resurrected, could revive fascism in Europe and that national elites were therefore crypto-fascists in their own right. The temptations in post-communist Europe have always been towards on one hand pro-authoritarian monarchists on the one hand and modernising democrats on the other, and has produced tensions in more than one country, Yugoslavia being only the most brutal example of historical states trying to refound each other on each other's territory. Some principalities such as Kosovo had not had independent existences since the Middle Ages. In your case, the patron must be someone like Tito or a benign version of Stalin - but these adventures very rarely end up without some kind of bloodshed. At the very least expansion into territory not originally part of the historical state (such as the Pechory district of Russia still claimed by Estonia as part of the inter-war state, and Moldavia with a large Ukrainian minority on the left bank of the Dnistr now claimed by Romania despite this "Transdnistrian Republic" not being part of the inter-war state) would cause a minor war, possibly with casualties numbering closer to 100,000 than even 50,000. (EDIT: I've read the OP and some of the other posts and it seems I misread that bit. Never mind, the casualty figures would be the same anyway - mass slaughter over territory usually does not vary from world to world.) Look up any history of Eastern Europe and what it produced in the modern era. At the very least this is going to have Yugoslav-style repercussions, because if I have heard anything about sun elves they are all fascists to a "man" and would stop at nothing to impose a Greater Sunelfia over most of the other elves. Anything that wipes them out gets my vote, but sadly that might too be considered genocide and a peaceful political solution might be to convince your patron not to bother with the whole enterprise.
GothicDan 10-30-07, 09:14 PM	Not all Sun Elves are fascists. In fact, I think one of the reasons they "appear" Lawful at times, is because they take their (Chaotic) ability of CHOICE, granted to them by Corellon, so SERIOUSLY. Of course, statistically (from what we have as far as NPCs go), Sun Elves DO tend towards having more Lawful alignments - but that's hardly a 'rule.' Overall, official canon, I'd say they 'balance out' around NG (though I'd play them as hard core LG in my own games). Wipe them out? Never. I'm a huge fan of the Roman Empire, the principate under Augustus, and libertarian elitism. ;) Mmm, Switzerland. PS: I apologize; I totally forgot this was a RDM thread. In my joy over discussing something so close to my heart, I got overexcited. No more in the future! Carry on.
Lord Karsus 10-31-07, 01:22 PM	-Don't being the city back. The Realms need a few ancient mysteries left. :( -Everywhere you look, lately, some ancient and far flung culture is making a comeback.
Krash 11-03-07, 03:20 AM	Ahhhh, Krash, thanks for the tidbit... could you elaborate a bit or does the evil NDA have you held against your will? Did you mean that the gold elves wouldn't get along with a Vyshann heir or that the gold elves in Adofhaer wouldn't get along with a kingdom of predominantly moon and wood elves? Both. "Lost Empires of Faerūn" (p.84 - timeline entry) tells you why Myth Adofhaer was shunted into another plane/dimension by its High Mages. They didn't want to be a part of a Siluvanede that had dealings with the fey'ri, but quite obviously didn't want to be kowtowing to the upstart moon elves of Eaerlann. Oh, and no-one elven wants to be associated with the Vyshaan. -- George Krashos
Zanan 11-03-07, 04:20 AM	Oh, and no-one elven wants to be associated with the Vyshaan. -- George Krashos Then again, it would be good for a balanced view on the race as such if you would find a few "black sheep" amongst them, "sheep" like the Eldreth Veluuthra (sp?). Quite a number of figures in the Last Mythal series present themselves in quite a different manner than the archetypical/stereotypical type of elf and one would hope this will continue in upcoming game material. As in: every race should have its very own dark side, even it is only dark gray and not jet-black (and pointy eared).
johnkretzer 11-09-07, 06:48 PM	Just wondering how it is going?