Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 09-23-07, 01:47 PM	I just have a quick question. For a long time I have been looking for a way to align Shou Reckoning with Dales Reckoning. I have scoured my 1st edition modules and found a Shou and Kozakuran calendar. I figured the best way to link the calendar up was to find an event which would have touched both the Forgotten Realms and Kara-Tur. The only two events that came to mind were the Time of Troubles and the invasions of the Tuigen Horde. I ruled out the Time of Troubles because I have been unable to find any published material relating what if anything happened in the lands of Kara-Tur during the time of troubles. However I have been able to find some published material on the invasions of the Tuigen Horde. From looking in Fr 12 the Horde Campaign accessory I found that Yamun Kahan invaded Shou Lung in 1359 Dale Reckoning and is defeated. Does anyone know what would be the date of this invasion by Shou reckoning? I have just gotten my hands on the Grand History of the Realms. I have found on page 142 mention of a black leopard cult outpost discovered and destroyed on Akari Island. This happens in 1357 DR. This corresponds to the timeline I have in OA 5 Mad Monkey VS dragon claw, where there is a similar entry and it gives the year 2607 in what I think is Shou reckoning. Can I then assume then that 1357 Dale Reckoning = 2607 Shou Reckoning? If I go by this premise, then Shou-Lung was invaded in 1359 DR and by Shou reckoning that would be 2609. Am I correct in my reasoning? Perhaps there is a much simpler way to go about this that I have simply overlooked. Any help would be appreciated thanks.
MarkusTay63 09-23-07, 01:56 PM	-1250 to convert from Shou to DR +1250 to convert from DR to Shou. I had to figure it out awhile back whilst doing research. :cool: During the ToT ALL of the eastern gods banded together, and wandered off into the mountains to meditate. Don't ask me where thats from, because I don't remember the source, but it is considered canon.
steve7456 09-23-07, 05:26 PM	During the ToT ALL of the eastern gods banded together, and wandered off into the mountains to meditate. Don't ask me where thats from, because I don't remember the source, but it is considered canon.[/QUOTE] This is from the 2e FR Adventures book, in a letter from Vangerdahast to Elminster. However Vangerdahaust has some doubt as to how true this was as he heard rumors that there was much godly meddling there.
ElyasRavenwood 10-16-07, 01:11 AM	Thank you both gentlemen. I just noticed the conversion from Dales to Shou Reckoning in the front of the Grand history of the realms. :embarrass I do like the idea of all of the eastern gods going into the Katokoran mountains and meditating. Maby they hung out at the Jumpa river gorge and dropped rocks of the edge.:D Perhaps the eastern gods decended on Saikhoi, the capitol of Rhakati, and abused the hospitality of Tsenya Garbo the Dalai Lama, while they watched him attempt to ride Sandiraksiva, the black courser. By the way any idea when the events of the Horde Modules Storm Riders, Black Courser, and Blood charge occur? Thanks
BadCatMan 10-16-07, 01:41 AM	The events of those modules occurred in 1360, alongside The Horde CS and the Empires trilogy
MarkusTay63 10-16-07, 01:16 PM	Correction: They take place in 1359 DR. :teach: The war took place over a two-year period, and it is EXTREMELY important that the events in those modules happened early on. Since they involve the eastern war, that is most definately a safe assumption. (We need at least a year to seperate the contradicting lore regarding what was obviously a second invasion by Tan Chin). ;)
ElyasRavenwood 11-01-07, 08:32 PM	Ah yes, I have come across that littl bit of realms history. The bit about Tan Chin sucessfully invading Rhakati, going on to invade the Shou. I do have a bone to pick with that particular bit of history. I am assuming this "history" was compiled in candle keep thousands of leagues away on the sword coast? If that is the case, then I can understand some historians getting their history a little confused especially if they are stuck in a tower and relying on other peoples reports. On a tangental note, one thing I enjoyed about reading the realms timelines was were they mentioned "adventurers drove the orcs out of this village" or Adventurers defeated this sorcerer, would be conquerer of the realms" and so forth. It allows me to in some small way feel as if I (If I was DMing) or one of my characters contributed in some small way to the history of the realms. It is fun to see when modules i have played or run, and computer games I have played, fit into the timeline of the realms. It feels as if I had a hand in it. Back to the Tan Chin buisness. As a player my character, a bard named Nolan Taleswapper, (2nd eddition) took part in the modules Storm Riders, Black Courser, and Blood Charge. Our characters were there. We faced the Dowagu, were marked with the stamp of Tan Chin, lead the army of Hubadai through Rhakati into Khazari (not a Rhakati died mind you) , found the lost city of Kuo Milan, wrested the Staff of Shih from the ruins, rode back with the Horde back out of Shou Lung, convinced Bato Min Ho, and a few others that Hubadai should take his Tumens south to help prevent this upstart "Ambuchar Devayam" from trying to rule the world, and we stood on the Rhakati side of the Great chain bridge, and held off the Zombie army, with Walls of Fire, and the staff of Shih, while Hubadai's Tumens, shredded the army from behind. We watched the Purple Dragon fall to the blades of the Dowagu and her dust spread Over the Jumpa River. Then we went to Solon, entered it and penetraited its depths. We entered the ebony temple, retreived the four Imaskari artifacts from the paraelemental planes, and faced Tan Chin. We bested him and tossed his Phylactries in the bublling pit of lava that was in the Temple. That was why the volcano eruped for crying out loud. We did in Tan Chin Phylactries and all. Oh and we threw the Staff of Shih into the pool of lava as well for good measure. Just to prove this wasnt a fluke, I ran four of my nephews(ages 14 and 14 twins, and 16 and 18) through these modules, they loved them. We were at my sisters place up in the Alps and they had no trouble imagining the mountain climes of Rhakati. I remember the bit about the Tuigen warming thier steaks by putting the slabs of meat under their coats. Anyways nephews came up with better solutions for the problems I faced as a player a few years earlier. They killed Tan Chin, and threw his Phylacteries in the pool of lava. Actually more correctly their characters did it. As an asside note, I converted the modules into third eddition. There was enough expereince in those three modules to take them from 5 level to 15 level. I simply increased the challanges as they increases in levels. Oh one final note Geography. I seem to remember the Grand History of the Realms it mentioned Tan Chin sucessfully invaded Rhakati, then Shou Lung, then went to Khazari. First off You cant go from Rhakati to Shou Lung. There is one big problem. The Yellow Serpent Cliffs. You have to go into Khazari and then through their pass to get into Shou Lung. you can march a zombie off a cliff, but the fall, well that will smash its legs. I know a zombie army may not march on its stomac, but it does need its legs to march. Anyways enough of my rant. As far as I am concerned, that "official Grand history of the realms" simply got that part of the history wrong. It did not happen. If Tan Chin was killed by adventurers, I was one, and my nephews were another party, then he could not have invaded Rhakati, and could not have invaded Shou Lung. We all know the difference between "official" history and what actually happened. Well there we are. I appologize for my rant. I just kept on ranting. Thank you for your paitience. I also appologize for some errors in both spelling and geography. Neither my dictionary is at hand nor are my maps of the realms. thank you
MarkusTay63 11-02-07, 12:15 AM	I do not have any of my sources handy, but your party was successful - according to the GHotR! :eek: A later date, AFTER the invasion of Ra-khati, states that the heroes WERE successful. In fact, you can even go so far as to say that BOTH your party and your nephews happened in the same universe. There were two seperate events, and the first happened in 1359 DR. That one went according to the modules, but somehow Tan Chin was aware of the outcome and at least one of the four artifacts was a fake. Once he started losing the battle, he faked both the eruption and his own death. Through various machinations he CAME BACK a year later, with his forces renewed and recently acquired knowledge of Ra-Khatis interior, Tan Chin attacked that nation a third time and was successful. A second group of adventurers were able, with some divine assisstance, to procure the 4th missing artifact and destroy it as well, presumably destroying Tan Chin in the process. However, only time will tell.... *BTW, none of that is official.... yet. ;)
Iakhovas 11-02-07, 09:45 AM	The bit about Tan Chin sucessfully invading Rhakati, going on to invade the Shou.ElyasRavenwood, Tan Chin was not destroyed in Solon. That was one possible outcome of the module trilogy, and the Grand History assumes the adventurers failed. Why? :uh-huh: Because I wanted to change things up. Good need not always win in the Forgotten Realms. From the maps I have at my disposal I see several paths that Tan-Chin's army could take from Ra-Khati to Shou Lung that avoid the Yellow Serpent Cliffs, the Old Iron Road being the most obvious route. How Tan Chin marched his army into Khazari after the fall of Lo Tu is another story. An though it appears Tan Chin was later destroyed in Skarou, I wouldnt count him out quite yet. As Mark pointed out, all will be revealed with time. The Eastern Realms are very much alive in my eyes.
MarkusTay63 11-02-07, 10:32 AM	And you know what they say, "If the Shou fits..." ;)
ElyasRavenwood 11-05-07, 01:42 AM	MarkusTay63, Thank you for your thoughts on how both groups of adventurers could be successful, and how two “separate” events could have happened in the same world. Thanks for the joke “if the shou fits” ? Iakhovas, Brian, Thank you for taking the time to wade through my rant and for writing a thoughtful reply. Lets see where was I? Again I was ranting “Let me explain, no too complicated, Let me sum up” Inigo Montoya I teach black and white photography at a small college here in VT. I enjoy working with my students. The photography lab is in the basement of the Fine Arts building on campus, and I had a long day. Perhaps I had breathed in too many fumes from the photography chemicals and I began ranting, chewing on my desk spinning in my chair etc. Anyways, Brian I wanted to complement you on your fine work compiling all of these different time lines from all sorts of forgotten realms products. I have taken particular pleasure in unearthing little tidbits pointing to modules that I have both played in and ran as a DM. I also enjoyed digging up hints to the various computer games I played over the years such as the “Pool of Radiance” Curse of the Azure bonds” “Secret of the silver blades”, “Baldur’s Gate I, Etc. I also enjoyed finding the tidbits that hinted at the Forgotten realms comics. Memories. Good times. I especially enjoyed the bits about the modules, From Ochimo Spirit warrior to the discovery of Mazitica. I have a particular fondness for the Horde modules. It took our group a full year to get through all three modules and we had a real sense of accomplishment when we finally defeated Tan Chin. I also enjoyed introducing my nephews to D&D. The Horde modules were not their first introduction, but it was the adventure arc they most frequently reminisce about with me. Good times. So I was a little upset when that hard fought victory, the little bit where I felt both my nephews, some of my college buddies and I, had helped to” avert “an old evil from arising and in some small way “helped” to make the realms or at least Rhakati a better place. It was a little irksome to have our “accomplishment” undone. I also have a fondness for China. After having both worked in china photographing an American high school student exchange program and living with a host family for six weeks, and on another occasion touring china for two weeks, I find I like the place. I am also a fan of the Judge Dee mystery novels by Robert Van Gulik It just seemed to me that China’s “fantasy counterpart” Shou Lung, might be better able to defend itself that’s all. Well on second thought I suppose it did, they repelled Yamun khan. But that’s all right. No harm no foul. Or is it fowl? Homonyms: my bane. We still have our memories and we had a good time playing those modules. Lets see onto another subject: While an army of zombies doesn’t march on its stomach, it certainly marches on its feet. Solon- Rhakati- Shou Lung- Khazari. You are certainly correct. I was ranting and wrong. You can get there from here. You can get from Solon to Kushk, and along the Old Iron road through the Yarlhang la (trying pass) along the old iron road (labeled as the old caravan road abandoned in the map of the Katakoro region in the Storm riders module) which takes you by a steam geyser and into the Shou Lung province of Ch’ing Tung. You can get back into Khazari through the Rempo La or Broken Pass according to the maps on p 14 and 15 of the Forgotten Realms Atlas. It seems that you can get from Rhakati through the Khatakoro mountains to the Plateau to the south by going along the “path of strange sights” and taking a path that leads to an un named and possibly now unpopulated village just south of the mountains according to the back flap of the Black courser module. I sit corrected. After looking at this map in the Forgotten Realms atlas, what did Tan Chin want with Rhakati? After the Great Chain Bridge across the Jumpa River Gorge, and the Yarlhang la pass, it’s a strait shot along the old Iron road across a flat plateau into Shou Lung. Why even bother with Rhakati? Why not just march around it? I understand why Hubadai was ordered to take his soldiers through. They were going to launch a flank attack on Khazari, which was the key to Shou Lung from the northern Horde lands. Well it’s a moot point anywasy. It’s late and I think I have begun to chase my own tale. And rant again. Bedtime. Again thank you MarkusTay63 for your thoughts and thank you Iakhovas- Brian for taking the time to answer my rant. Myles Crocker
MarkusTay63 11-05-07, 09:26 AM	If you check the latest addition of my Hordelands Map, (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/The-Endless-Wastes-66917291) you can get a somewhat better idea how things went. The funny thing is, I don't think Kuo Meilan (sp?) appears on ANY maps, AFAIK, but it is described as being near the other city in the middle of the Chukei Plateau (not at home, so I can't look it up ATM). Hopefully I will have a bit more of the K-T map done by Christmas - with all the 4e stuff going on I fell way behind schedule. Also look for more info on the eastern Realms in the next CK Compendium. ;) As far as your question goes, if you read the GHotR carefully, the Katakoro Plateau was a province of Imaskari (one in which I assume te original Shou came from). Later, after the Empire falls, Anok-Imaskari rises in the east (along with at least four smaller survivor-states to the south, north, and perhaps west). After a certain amount of time passes, Tan Chin attacks and kills the Empress of Anok-Imaskar with Imaskari artifacts recovered from Thakros (sp?), which lies within the borders of Ra-Khati! He then rules Anok-Imaskar (Katakoro) for the next several centuries, and that is considered the First Age of Shou-Lung. He is defeated by one of the nine travelers (Shih), who then ascends to become the first of the Immortals. Now, Tan Chin tried at least two previous times to invade Ra-Khati in the recent past - the first time is when the chain bridge was destroyed, and then fifty years later when the modules take place. He DESPERATELY needs to take Ra-Khati BEFORE becoming emperor of Shou-Lung again. Now it could just be for nostalgia reasons, but I doubt that. Obviously there is a cache of Imaskari weapons/devices/items located in the mountains of Ra-Khati. I don't think he has known about that particular cache forever, because he was emperor at least one other time, (I believe) during the third age of Shou-Lung under the name Tsa Choo. There is also at least one other place he has great interest in - Tempat Larang. I think Tempat-Larang is where he had a personal stash of items, but the one in Ra-Khati is something he has only become aware of in the last century or so. Using Bruce Cordell's novel Darkvision for source material, we know that the Imaskari had a penchant for 'locking away' dangerous magic, for use in only the direst circumstances. From that, and studying the obscure location of Ra-Khati, I think that that particular region was an out-of-the-way location for the ancient Imaskari to keep 'dangerous things' - people, weapons, magic, etc... Sort of like the Valley of Exiles used by Shou-Lung in the present day. This is just my take, but I think it makes an excellent 'penal colony' for the old empire. Anyhow, during the events of the three modules, Tan Chin suspected there might be something there, from hints recovered in other Imaskari ruins. Part of the modules have the characters 'scouting' Ra-Khati for the Tuigan, while they had the Mark of Tan Chin upon them. Now either of two things happened - Tan Chin's magic allows him to see through the eyes of anyone wearing the Mark, or he took control of one of the PCs at the conclusion of the adventure-arc. So he might of saw something through their eyes, or obtained the memories of his victim upon taking control. Either way, he was able to discern certain markings on one of the temples they passed and realized it was built over a hidden armory. Armed with this knowledge, he attacked Ra-Khati with a frontal assault to disract them, while he entered via magic and opened the armory, releasing the 'anti-deluvian horrors' that the Imaskari sealed away there (probably using one of those 'Cirulean Seals', which I have come to the conclusion may be adaptions of Bloodforge magic). This is when he achieves victory over the Ra-Khati at long last. However, he is once again thwarted by a group of adventurers before he can put all of his new found toys to use against Shou-Lung. There's actually quite a bit more to it then that, and other forces were at work, but lets just say that Tan Chin has ****** off at least two pantheons over the last four thousand years. ;) If I wasn't away from home for a week, I would have had the western Kara-Tur timeline complete by now. :( Stay tuned to the K-T thread.....
ElyasRavenwood 11-05-07, 09:02 PM	Thanks for the Imfo. I only read the part of the Grand history of the realms around the time of troubles. I was looking for hints of modules I had played in or ran, and evidence of the Forgotten realms comics. I had flipped through the earlier stuff and enjoyed some of the maps of earlier Toril. I have not read the book cover to cover. I am however interested in the Tid bits about Kara-Tur. Thanks for the Imfo. I guess there is much more going on then "volcanic eruption in the city of Solon" etc. I was just interested in that little tidbit because I played the module and ran my newphews through it. They loved the modules, and I enjoyed them as well. I guess what I liked was that you were introduced to this uber powerful villan at the begining of the trilogy, and along the way, you find a magical thingummy ( I know the staff of Shih is much more then a thingummy), and then at the end of the arc beat the golden eyed villan like the red haired step child he is. There was something quite final about rushing out of the city while lava was flooding the cavern and then erupting thorugh the crater in a huge smoke colum. Good times. I converted the modules to third eddition and then ran my nepwhews throug hit. There was enough expereince in it from raw monster thumping to take the characters from 5 level to 16. It was my first time running a big third eddition thing, and since I had as a second eddition character went from 6th level to around 11, I was suprised to see that progression for my nephews with thier third eddition characters. I rolled with it, and simply stuck more powerful mosters in the module and powered up Kuo Milan and Tan chin accordingly. For my nephews I think I made Tan chin a 20 level sorcer on top of the statisitcs of a shadow or something like that I only gave him necromancy spells. It mentioned something about that in the module. Anyways it was a fun battle. good times Where was I? oh thanks for the imfo It seems there is much more going on then I initialy thought
ElyasRavenwood 11-05-07, 09:23 PM	Cool map thanks
MarkusTay63 11-06-07, 02:08 PM	Thats the wonderful thing about the Realms - the more you pick at it, the more you uncover. :D