Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 10-16-04, 03:33 PM	Okay, I had fun with the ‘Changes in the Realms’ thread before it got heated and people got upset because they felt the other person wasn’t listening (the veracity of said statement is beyond the scope of this game). Basically, this is a thread where we’re going to discuss REALISTIC changes in the Realms. The goal of the thread is manifold I suppose and I think will result in some interesting conversation all round. 1. The discussion of what would happen should the “kid gloves be taken off” and the evil forces in the Realms are allowed to act with impunity/level of competence equal to the heroes. 2. What would be realistic and interesting changes that are possible in the Realms and how exactly they would get there to be (The retaking of Cormanthor, the fall of Agalarond, the Thayan takeover of Unther, etc) And finally 3. Predictions on what are realistic changes that would occur again if present trends were not interrupted. In the Realms, anything goes and some guy will randomly appear with a scimitar thrown at him by a watery tart in times of chaos or wizards will walk the Realms from the ancient times with no warning. This would be about things in play ONLY interacting. And remember folks, this is a lot less a volatile topic than Changes which was about dictating, this is a strictly “speculation” and “for the benefit of your campaigns” thread so I think we can keep it civil. It was amazingly interesting and polite the last one I think until the last part. I personally am interested in politics of the gods and will predict MY changes next post by me. Critiquing is also welcomed by me on my posts and thoughts to add on, I'm interested in people's dissenting opinions since I know most of us see the Realms differently.
Charles Phipps 10-16-04, 04:01 PM	The Fall of Cyric: Ed Greenwood has more or less confirmed this one actually and I’ll just let his own words speak for themselves. From Kueji31’s “Collected Sayings of a Wise Old Sage” document (thank you Kueji31 for them, its an invaluable resource for lovers of Realmslore) 2. The stability and power of the Church of Cyric are by no means certain; that’s a matter for every DM to decide. My own take on this situation is that as Bane grows in power, Cyric inevitably loses, and that Bane is inherently stronger (less insane, for one thing) a personality, and thus will eventually win the “who’s the big bad guy?” contest between them. The faith of Cyric is MUCH younger than the other large priesthoods of Faerun, and from the first has been dominated by opportunists from other churches seeking more personal power -- a recipe for schisms, struggles, and a weak church. So whatever happens to the gods themselves, the Church of Cyric is by no means a predictable or a consistent force for anything. Basically Cyric will strike, Bane will strike harder, and eventually one of them will fall. I don’t see this as happening anytime save over a period of a few decades at the earliest though. Bane is capable of something Cyric is not, and that is that Bane is blessed with patience. Cyric is the type to build a death star while Bane would have just sent a bunch of star destroyers to level the place. The conservation of resources will result in a victory for the Dark Lord that shatters the Dark Sun. I do not want people to think that I hold Cyric low as a villain even as I kind of guessed Bane would beat Cyric, I see it largely as a struggle between Fzoul and Manshoon to an extent. Cyric lacks the majestic power of Bane and while a brilliant chaos bringer….and also one who succeeded in coming into his godhood, is faced with an opponent he can’t win against. I’m curious personally whether Bane will want Strife back honestly or whether he’ll attempt to use Cyric’s corpse to resurrect Bhaal or some other deity. Mask will definitely be rewarded with Intrigue back and probably also blessed with Lies, raising him to a high intermediate god. I’m not sure Bane would let him keep Illusions though and it’d probably be forfeited back to Mystra. Murder might be given to Talona though in lack of a new candidate or be absorbed back into Death. Talos will probably absorb most of Cyric’s clergy along with some to Gargauth and others to Mask. Bane will not be very happy with any converted priests though. The Corruption of Kelemvor- I see basically Kelemvor is going to slowly go more detached and debased as he’s confronted with what I think is the coolest of aspects in the fact he’s going to LEARN from his experiences as a God. Mystra is extremely stubborn but Kelemvor has shown a remarkable ability to grow into his divinity. That unfortunately means he’s going to learn that the undead aren’t pure evil that he thinks they are and that people are never going to like death or think of him as anything but the slayer of their families since he’s the god of death. Given Kelemvor is the god of the faithless and False I think he’s going to start exploring his station with the study of Necromancy and reading into his ways. It’s going to be interesting I think that for the next few hundred years that Kelemvor will probably have huge “philosophy parties” on the nature of death and wizards brought to him to educate him in the ways of necromancy. I think his relationship with Mystra will gradually cool to the point that aside from Necromancy, they won’t be allies….especially when Cyric is capped. Jergal I think that Kelemvor will eventually take all the portfolios from as well or support him in some area that is related to death he can use. I still say he and Finder “The Cycle of Life” god either have to talk about rot sometime. The Fall of Mystra to neutrality- I don’t think Mystra will ever like the evil wizards under her. No, I see her as becoming more like the Old Mystra as I see her and that’s how few see her. Midnight will use, abuse, manipulate, and murder wizards of evil with impunity. She’ll let a wizard build a huge empire of evil magic and give him great power before SUCKING the Rug out from under him as she then will just rattle off what a dumbass he is before letting him die so she can put her good candidate on the throne. Basically, she’ll support good by being cruel and manipulative. I can’t see Shar holding onto the Shadow Weave long because the other god’s jealousy will cause them to ally with Mystra against the Shadow Goddess. She’ll still maintain many wizard worshippers but their fear of her will overcome their disgust for Mystra as soon as she’s back to being the Machiavellian witch she always was.
Yamo 10-16-04, 04:46 PM	The simplest and best solution to me is just to start the whole setting over from the Grey Box and be done with it. That's what Ed Greenwood does in his campaigns, as far as I know (no ToT or anything after). He should know best. Vampire: the Masquerade did this recently when it relaunced as Vampire: the Requiem. The metaplot had gotten so out of control over the last thirteen years that they ditched it all and started over from square one. It's been a very popular change.
Mirtek 10-16-04, 06:00 PM	Well, in a realistiv evolution of the Realms, Bane would be the one to fall, not Cyric. A fall of Cyric is nothing but metagaming by Greenwood, who wants his god at the top. Understandable, but not very realistic. Bane is a bully, that's all he is. In a realistic developement, he wouldn't have any chance against Cyric. Bane has muscles, but not much more. Cyric is more clever, and more important: Cyric has the more powerfull tools. Bane has hatred, tyranny and fear. Like said above: the typical bully. Strong and dumb, easily tricked. Cyric has deception, lies, intrigue, illusion. That alone is already an incredible combination, and if you add murder and strife, it becomes nearly undefeatable. Bane's portfolios might prevail in a clash of armies, but Cyric's portfolios won't ever offer these kind of fights. Long story short: In a realistic setting, Bane hasn't the measn to stand against Cyric
Charles Phipps 10-16-04, 06:24 PM	I can’t say I would divest the setting of the Godswar, which WAS Ed Greenwood’s idea. How the Godswar played out was something that was entirely different from how the mastermind of all Realmsiness intended though and I for one would be interested honestly in knowing how Ed intended the gods war to be. All we have at present is this cryptic clue….(more thanks to Kuejin31’s Musings of the Sage) Well, George states things correctly when he says that 3e rules specifics matter a whole lot less to me than Realmslore, and yes, I AM the guy who thought up the Godswar, though (back in issue 54 of The Dragon), it was as a way for a DM who’s let things get out of hand to do a one-time drastic ‘rules fix’ in a campaign (remove a +6 sword or artifact, or reduce it to something flashy but less awesome-master-destruction, for example), NOT as a “let’s shuffle the gods” plotline. If anyone has their Dragon Magazine archives CD’s handy, I wouldn’t mind actually knowing what Ed had to say there. Also Ed has participated in the Realms since then with the ‘Death of the Dragon’ plotline, the Risen Cult of Bane that more or less created Xvim’s storyline, and who knows how many other little bits of fun plot. RE: Bane vs. Cyric I’m not going to undersell Cyric here. I believe Cyric is a genius of a villain and he was only insane for a year. The problem isn’t the “Prince of Lies” portrayal I think or the “Cyrianishad” debacle even though he was supposed to be insane there. Largely, it’s the fact that Cyric is portrayed more often as Talos…with less the fun….than he was portrayed as the lawful evil schemer he was meant to be. Officially, the portfolios he’s managed to subsume though have made him the evil scumbag that he is whom is insane even if he’s not “chewing the wallpaper” insane since PoL Cyric was pretty damn crazy to start with and he was the SANE version. Bane, at least in Ed Greenwood’s version, is supposed to be a type of evil mastermind. In Ed Greenwood’s world, Bane is the greatest evil save perhaps Shar and even then its debatable. Let’s face it, at the start of the Greybox he was practically ruler of the FR pantheon. Mask, Bhaal, Myrkul, Loviathar, and Talona all paid homage to his evil majesty. It seemed he was poised to strike out and destroy the gods of good and more before the Tablets of Fate debacle made him look like he was a complete moron for stealing them. It’s also not helped to know that the god he slew to gain power to face Jergal was a god of MUD, was only one god (it was stated that he was supposed to have killed many gods), and that Jergal gave up the power willingly. I still say the idea is essentially that Bane is supposed to be “more impressive” than Cyric because Cyric was a 7th level rogue and Bane was an Epic Level warrior and conquerer when he took over the Heavens. Onto the Zhents.... I think that Fzoul is eventually going to lose control of the Black Network. Fzoul is going to take over the Church of Bane and probably rule as High Imperceptor (If He hasn't killed the Old Man already-Xvim suffers no rebukes). Fzoul is a religious fanatic and was never meant to be a Tyrant himself, only a supporter of Tyrants. I'm fairly sure Manshoon knows this and is simply waiting for Fzoul to grow sick of it all and then hand over the reigns willingly of the group. I think that there's going to be a "trade war" soon between the Zhents and the Thayans though. TBN is THE evil group of traders, magicians, and spies in the Realms and the Thayans will find themselves hunted and killed at every turn until they sign some sort of deal that turns over their enclaves to the Black Network but allows the Zhents to distribute them. It makes a lot more sense for the Red Wizards to be be godly and the Zhents to play their Illuminati games in my opinion. I'm also of the mind that the "Real" Manshoon is probably a puppet along with the Vampire Manshoon and the Undermountain Manshoon for some other clone elsewhere that's in hiding and using them all.
BrianCritchley 10-16-04, 06:47 PM	I'm gonna take issue with the idea of kelemvor becoming more corupt. he apparently already has changed his alignment to one more suitable. but I do agree Mystra will evcentually become neutral. most likely she'll absorb the shadow weave and thus become enutrally aligned
Charles Phipps 10-16-04, 07:05 PM	I'm fairly aware Kel has already done so, I just don't see him as morally sustainable or particularly that interested in good in the first place. He's not going to become evil but he won't be holding the ideals he's holding now. Mysty I am also going to point out also was never for evil spellcasters in the Realms and I don't think that she will ever become the weird Oghma "knowledge and knowledge alone" person that everything thinks she might become. I see her just becoming more ruthless and if anything, an even greater servant of good because she cracks heads to do it.
CzarGarrett 10-16-04, 07:23 PM	In a Bane vs Cyric struggle, I see Bane eventually coming out on top. Here's why: Cyric is at odds with everyone. Bane isn't liked by most other Gods, but I could see him getting a few to support him. Bane has Fzoul and the Zhents. They are a rather strong power. Also, Fzoul has already made a deal with Khelben. Why couldn't be make another to help dispose of Cyric? Kelemvor could be a surprise ace. Cyric wants control over Death. Kelemvor could play a spoiler role here to secure his control over Death and keep it away from Cyric. Shar. This one is a stretch, but I see the possibility. Shar would love to gain control over Illusion, so I see her possibly getting involved for that reason alone. It could be that she will help to negate Cyric's illusionary skills in return for taking control of the Illusion domain once Cyric is dead.
Charles Phipps 10-16-04, 07:26 PM	Shar. Actually, as a wildcard, shar is more likely to land with Cyric I think. Come on "Black Sun", "Dark Sun"? Cyric is an enemy of Mystras and would be perfect to aid Shar against her. The only thing keeping them from alliance now I'm sure is the fact that Cyric doesn't know the value of a long term alliance. If Shar could seduce Cyric into being her consort then Shar would be able to face down Mystra's alliance with Kelemvor and probably sick Cyric on Lathander. *** On other realistic plotlines.... Tethyr's destruction- Shoonach is a bubbling cauldron waiting to occur and Amn is just waiting for a problem though not nearly as much. Probably after a war with Amn, If the Twisted Rune chooses to see Tethyr put to heel then the undead will pour forth and it will be the annihilation of the territory and the establishment of a dark thanocracy the likes of which has never been seen. The living will envy the dead. Shoon could rule with Vampire Manshoon and his gang coming in to set up vampire camps and rulership by the undead to stablize the region. Velsharoon is the state religion and immediately jumps to the status of lesser god. Non-evil undead would follow Kelemvor who'd probably be the god seeking to save those mortals pour lives along with Lathander. Chestnea Reunited- The land is ripe for another folkhero to take over the place. A war of conquest by either Tiamat or Hoar supported clergy is destined to happen in my mind, a possibility includs the Reaper leaving Unther and taking it over.
BrianCritchley 10-16-04, 07:54 PM	I'm fairly aware Kel has already done so, I just don't see him as morally sustainable or particularly that interested in good in the first place. He's not going to become evil but he won't be holding the ideals he's holding now. Mysty I am also going to point out also was never for evil spellcasters in the Realms and I don't think that she will ever become the weird Oghma "knowledge and knowledge alone" person that everything thinks she might become. I see her just becoming more ruthless and if anything, an even greater servant of good because she cracks heads to do it. why isn't he morally sustainable? he judges the dead. etc, yes some people like being undead, but given a choice how many people would conciouslly Choose to extend their lives. it's nice to see a god of the dead take the undead to task, for essentially trying to "cheat the reaper of his due" also Kel makes a more intresting god then Myrkul in some respects.
Charles Phipps 10-16-04, 08:00 PM	also Kel makes a more intresting god then Myrkul in some respects. I think Kel is about a thousand times better a god than Myrkul. I just don't think Kelemvor was that moral of a man in life and I think he's going to become more morbid and ruthless as time passes, he won't become LE but he'll become a darker LN. That's my opinion. More like Jergal but very different.
BrianCritchley 10-16-04, 08:43 PM	I don't see much in the way of genuine morals anyway, he signs deal with baatazu for example etc. now what I see with his view on undead, isn't a "good aligned dislike" of them, no, rather I see it mearly as the reaper out to get someone whose cheated him. he dislikes undead because they break the natural cycle.
nekrolog 10-16-04, 09:06 PM	I think the trend I see popping up again and again in sourcebooks is the Red Wizards and their budding enclaves around Faerun. I could see the Zulkirs allying with the Black Network to build an alliance that dominates trade and economy. They would be pretty far reaching if that were the case. It would also strengthen Bane's position quite a bit.
Lord_Anthrax 10-16-04, 09:18 PM	1)Bane vs. Cyric: I honestly don't see either of them winning, only causing a whole lot of trouble for everyone else. I do see Fzoul purging the Western Zhents of their Cyricist influences and bringing the entire organization under his direct control. Cyric could lose strength from this, or it could be his chance to remove those whose interests are conflicted with loyalty from under the influence of the Zhents and reconsolidate his interests in the South with the Sythilisians and build his powerbase there. 2)The Fall of Fzoul: Bane is tyrannical megalomaniac who wants to conquer the world. His influence is seen in the recent activities of the Zhentarim, who are reorganizing their operations from economic to military conquest(while the Thayans do the opposite). Manshoon sees his beloved empire of mercantile power, which he spent years constructing, in the hands of a madman who's going to destroy it in wasteful conflict, and being the monomaniac that he is, will wait until just the right moment when Fzoul has almost overextended himself, and then push him out of the way and retake his rightful place as head of the Zhentarim. It's inevitable. Manshoon's need to be in control can't allow Fzoul to maintain his rule any longer than absolutely necessary. 3)The Reweaving of Magic: Shar is growing in power and preparing for a coup to take the Weave for herself. The return of Shade is her attempt to bring to the field beings who can match Mystra's Chosen. Something has to give, and it's likely going to mean Mystra will be forced to take the Shadow Weave into herself and become Neutral.
JWSIII 10-16-04, 09:54 PM	A trend I see happening is the increasing power of Waukeen and of trade in general - She has as many listed temples as most of the greater deities, trade issues are becoming larger and larger (Thayan enclaves, Silver Marches unification, the Maztica stuff, ect.), and so I see her power increasing greatly. Not an important trend, I concede, but I believe there nontheless. I would be very interested in sourcebooks on mercantile activity, ect.
AJA 10-16-04, 10:56 PM	If anyone has their Dragon Magazine archives CD’s handy, I wouldn’t mind actually knowing what Ed had to say there. "Another mechanism for keeping things under control is the “Godswar.” This concept is also a good justification to cover the changeover of a campaign from D&D rules to AD&D rules -- and will also justify any other divine revisions the DM feels necessary, once. Simply put, the Godswar is strife among the gods -- direct, physical battle in which gods are destroyed, or their powers undone, wrested from them, or distorted, and a new hierarchy is created. The most important feature of this conflict is that worshippers are not involved; all clerics and other servants are completely cut off from their deities -- unable to communicate with them, renew spells above 2nd level, or receive accurate or complete information regarding the war afterwards (for deities may not wish to tell all to just any mortal). The Godswar truly can cover a “multitude of sins,” in the manner described in the battle between the Vom and the Guardian in Alan Dean Foster’s novel Bloodhype; side effects of the energy released in the conflict can transform or teleport landscapes, people, and any number of items on the various planes."
Cole Deschain 10-17-04, 12:56 AM	One word- Experience. One sentence- The extremely humbling experience of having had it all and then lost it. Bane has had a far more potent lesson in humility than Cyric has... and Bane has a much better history of "playing with others." Think about it- who has Cyric allied with? Only Mask, really, and that was an utterly treacherous relationship. Wheras Bane has led Bhaal, Loviatar, Talona and Xvim, cooperated with Myrkul, and just generally been a pain as a group leader. No matter what people say in Cyric's defense, he is essentially as alone as a god can be. Even with Myrkul and Xvim dead, Bane is quite capable of forging alliances with lawful beings- and he's far from shy about doing so. So in the long run, I can't see Cyric disposing of Bane- however, Cyric is popular enough among the fanbase and the writers that I seriously doubt he'll be going away. Ever. In my opinion, he should add Madness to his portfolio, and be allowed to get creative. Maybe Talona switches over to work for him 'cause she's sick of being picked on by Loviatar...
Charles Phipps 10-17-04, 02:03 AM	I can't see Shar trying to destroy Mystra directly and Mystra is willing to go down fighting rather than just fade away like Shar wants her too. The problem is that Shar WILL relinquish control first because if she's destroyed then the universe is going to go on. The Destruction of Agalrond- Ssass Tam and the Red Wizards will eventually realize, AFTER A LONG LONG LONG LONG TIME, that ultimately its their bad image that's done lost them the land rather than the Simbul. The Simbul's power hangs by a thread and eventually the Thayans try a new tactic... Get the people to ask the Agalarond wench to LEAVE. Perhaps by playing down their menace for once (may take some doing). Aid the Sons of Hoar then when she's gone DON'T immediately invade but make the next couple of monarchs puppets as they slowlyyyyyy move in. Then render it a province with HORDES OF THE UNDEAD AND SO FORTH! :-) I see the Red Wizards figuring out what Manshoon would have figured out in a few minutes with their resources. Mystra loves matching her chosen against evils you know... Khelban=Halastar Elminster=Manshoon Simbul=Thay Who knows whom the others are against!
BrianCritchley 10-17-04, 03:13 AM	Khelbhan and haalastr I don't see being opposed. Khelbhan handles waterdeep, haalster is content in under mountain
chme 10-17-04, 03:24 AM	If anyone has their Dragon Magazine archives CD’s handy, I wouldn’t mind actually knowing what Ed had to say there. Here it is: "Another mechanism for keeping things under control is the Godswar. This concept is also a good justification to cover the changeover of a campaign from D&D rules to AD&D rules and will also justify any other divine revisions the DM feels necessary, once. Simply put, the Godswar is strife among the gods - direct, physical battle in which gods are destroyed, or their powers undone, wrested from them, or distorted, and a new hierarchy is created. The most important feature of this conflict is that worshippers are not involved; all clerics and other servants are completely cut off from their deities unable to communicate with them, renew spells above 2nd level, or receive accurate or complete information regarding the war afterwards (for deities may not wish to tell all to just any mortal). The Godswar truly can cover a multitude of sins, in the manner described in the battle between the Vom and the Guardian in Alan Dean Foster s novel Bloodhype; side effects of the energy released in the conflict can transform or teleport landscapes, people, and any number of items on the various planes." (Ed Greenwood, Drmg 54, pp7-9.)
Mirtek 10-17-04, 01:15 PM	No matter what people say in Cyric's defense, he is essentially as alone as a god can be. As is Bane. Don't fool yourself: Alliance among evil gods aren't even worth whatever they're written on. Bane's so called "allies" (or slaves would be the better term) would instandly strike at Bane if they see a real chance to succeed. There's no loyalty among them, just fear and hatred toward Bane, and they desperately wait for a chance. And if this chance presents itself, they will strike at Bane just as gladly as they would strike at Cyric. Bane commands them through his mastery of fear and tyranny. Yet Cyric will set them at each others throats through his mastery of deception, intrigue, strife and lies. The seeds are already firmly routed in their so called alliance, and Cyric only needs to bring them to grow.
GothicDan 10-17-04, 01:35 PM	1. Bane vs. Cyric: Cyric was a wonderful mortal villain, and as a divinity, he sucks. Bane controls through tyranny and fear, yes, but the point is that he controls. Despite his portfolio, Cyric does not have the experience to truly mastermind huge internal strife among the deities and their allies. Bane might well pick up a few lesser Lawful Evil deities and FORCE them into doing what he wants out of fear, while Cyric would have a pretty tough time actually forcing the lesser allies to raise up against the Greater Deity (Bane), because of the fact that he is so powerful. 2. Bane/Cyric and Shar: Ultimately, when it comes down to it, Shar is just as egocentric as Cyric - however, she has the intelligence and experience to actually hold alliances long enough to get what she wants in the end. As relatively a short time ago as Netheril, she held the portfolios of Cyric and Mask. I wonder how they passed on to Mask and Leira in the first place - considering they were rather minor deities and at the time Shar was even more powerful. It looks like a master plan, if you ask me. Shar might even play Bane off of Cyric to destroy one or the other and then to use the remaining deity to sick on Mystra/Lathander/Kelemvor. Or maybe she'll do alliances with both without the other knowing. I could see her as the shadowy head of a huge network of evil deities, half of them not even knowing that they are part of the same league. Cyric's domain, you say? Well, Shar had his portfolios long before he did, for millions of years, so I don't think she's magically lost all of that expertise just because she gave up (I say gave up because I doubt she lost them in a nonconsensual circumstance) a few portfolios. Mmmm, Shar. I have to go now. More later on Mystra vs. Shar, Thay vs. Aglarond, and other things from Dan's peanut gallery.
Cole Deschain 10-17-04, 03:55 PM	As is Bane. Don't fool yourself: Alliance among evil gods aren't even worth whatever they're written on. Ah, but Bane actually uses his allies. And he has far more experience than Cyric ever willo in recordable game time- he's simply been around too long for Cyric to ever effectively catch up. Cyric's use of "allies" is best described as, "I'm bored of you, so now I'm gonna kill you." Wheras Bane's "slaves" (a trifle misleading there, ese) have the security of knowing that as long as they do their jobs right, Bane will leave them alone, for the most part. Bane's so called "allies" (or slaves would be the better term) would instandly strike at Bane if they see a real chance to succeed. But has he ever, in all of his history, allowed a successful rebellion against his authority among his alliance? Not to my knowledge. Sure, they score a few points now and again, but he was still the one in the driver's seat. Bane commands them through his mastery of fear and tyranny. Exactly. Yet Cyric will set them at each others throats through his mastery of deception, intrigue, strife and lies. According to you, they're already there. And holding the portfolio doesn't mean you're the only one who can execute or guard against a scheme. Honestly, the Faerunian Pantheon seems to be largely made up of ex-mortals who have a responsibility, not eternal deities who embody their portfolios. And Cyric is nowhere near as clever as he thinks he is. As I said, Bane's humbling experience trumps Cyric's any day of the week. He will be more careful. The seeds are already firmly routed in their so called alliance, and Cyric only needs to bring them to grow. If he can stop preening in the mirror long enough to do so. ;) Seriously, for an evil overlord? Bane, any day of the week. For a long-term scheme that is carefully nurtured and kept secret? Shar has it in the bag. For an insane scheme that engenders mass destruction? Talos (although since they usually have Cyric acting like Talos, I guess I could throw him this one. Let us not forget that Mask put one over on the so-called Prince of Lies for a long, long time. Yes, Mask got caught in his own trap, but that was just as much him screwing up as it was Cyric being clever.
Mirtek 10-17-04, 04:31 PM	Ah, but Bane actually uses his allies. And he has far more experience than Cyric ever willo in recordable game time- he's simply been around too long for Cyric to ever effectively catch up. And he did soooo much in all these days. Bane's history is an failed attempt to gain that, after one failed attempt to gain this, for basically the whole time he has been a god. And holding the portfolio doesn't mean you're the only one who can execute or guard against a scheme. No, but if gives you a nice ability called portfolio sense, which makes Cyric aware of any deception or intrigue against him, 16 weeks before the one planing it actually begins to do so.And Cyric is nowhere near as clever as he thinks he is. And yet he's more clever than BaneSeriously, for an evil overlord? Bane, any day of the week. Overlords are boring. The grand tyrant who rules anything with an iron fist is boring. Grand armies marching in endless lines in parade through openly conquered cities are borind. Not only boring, but unable to defend themselves against anyone not playing by their rules of brute force, but striking behind the scenes.For an insane scheme that engenders mass destruction? Talos (although since they usually have Cyric acting like Talos, I guess I could throw him this one. Actually I don't really count Talos among the evil deities, since he hasn't any evil real portfolios. He could just as easily be CN instead of CE, as the destructive nature is ultimately not evil. Victims of such desasters might think otherwise, but it's only natural things happening without any real purporse to cause evil, they're simply there. Also there's the matter of their motivation. Bane is the typical bully, he's driven by his own low selfesteem, fears, and shame.* Cyric is driven by ambitions. He, who was born so low and spend his first years and decades among the dirty of society, wants to rise above that. Cyric aims high and has risen impossibly high and now he aims to rise even higher. Ambitions is a much better motivation than running from one's own fears. *See the novel "Stormlight", written by no other than Ed himself If Ed says "Bane will win" (because he's mine, and I did never like what some TSR guy decided to do with a guy named Cyric), than Bane will win. But it would be neither deserved nor realistic.
GothicDan 10-17-04, 06:31 PM	And he did soooo much in all these days. Bane's history is an failed attempt to gain that, after one failed attempt to gain this, for basically the whole time he has been a god. He effectively built the entire Black Network, perhaps the most universally hated and fear evil organization in all of Faerun. Even if you attribute its actual founding to Manshoon and previous wizards, it was still Bane who put it into his pocket. He gained Talona, Bhaal, and Loviatar as minions (already more than Cyric has done), and Myrkul as a powerful ally. He caused a significant amount of strife and intrique among the ranks of the Cult of the Dragon. He's taken over the Moonshae areas (effectively). He battled his way (with Bhaal and Myrkul) through legions of undead (including that nice gauntlet of liches)and he absorbed a deity (even if only a demipower) to earn his right to take a part of Jergal's portfolio. That's a whole lot more than Cyric has done, and he needed Mask's help to even get near that level. No, but if gives you a nice ability called portfolio sense, which makes Cyric aware of any deception or intrigue against him, 16 weeks before the one planing it actually begins to do so. If you actually use deity stats, which it seems like the majority of people informed the most about the topic (2E players, mostly), do not. And yet he's more clever than Bane That's an opinion, unless you actually pull out the deity stats. If so, see above. Overlords are boring. The grand tyrant who rules anything with an iron fist is boring. Grand armies marching in endless lines in parade through openly conquered cities are borind. The discussion isn't really about whether or not it's boring or not - it's about competance and the likelihood of things acting. The last time I checked, all of the most competant 'villains' who have affected the world on a large basis were of the LE tyrant category. Not only boring, but unable to defend themselves against anyone not playing by their rules of brute force, but striking behind the scenes. I see LE as acting more behind the scenes than CE, myself. You can use fear/hatred via blackmail behind the scenes just as easily (and often with more efficiency) as you can on the battlefield. And let's remember that a large number of Bane's church actually works specifically behind the scenes to encourage and advise tyrants rather than act openly. Actually I don't really count Talos among the evil deities, since he hasn't any evil real portfolios. He could just as easily be CN instead of CE, as the destructive nature is ultimately not evil. Victims of such desasters might think otherwise, but it's only natural things happening without any real purporse to cause evil, they're simply there. It's not the portfolios that define your alignment, but rather how you use them. Considering he only destroys things, and often for no good reason, and he only cares about damaging things, unliving or not, I would call him Chaotic Evil, in terms of D&D alignment. He is not both sides of the coin; he doesn't care about growth, birth, or life. If he was, then maybe I could see him as CN. Murder and intrigue are not innately evil, either. Kossuth has assassins among his ranks, and they have an assassin PrC in the Book of Exalted Deeds. So, yes. Talos is quite evil, because of his actions, not his portfolios, just as Cyric is evil because of his actions, not his portfolios. If Ed says "Bane will win" (because he's mine, and I did never like what some TSR guy decided to do with a guy named Cyric), than Bane will win. But it would be neither deserved nor realistic. Completely your opinion, here. I think that Cyric has no reason for being the DvR he is or having the number of worshippers that he does. He effectively has the portfolios of Leira and a portion of Bhaal's former portfolios. He's given up the bulk of his power already to Kelemvor and Mask. I am not sure about Cyric being outright defeated/killed by Bane, as Cole said, but I could easily see him (and would like to see him) reduced to a Lesser Deity.
Charles Phipps 10-17-04, 06:45 PM	That most of Cyric's followers do not actually know Cyric is evil. Cyric and Malik (whom I think is the perfect Cyricist in some ways) are essentially liars who care nothing for their followers actual knowledge of their existence. Cyric probably says he's a Nature Deity in the Moonshaes, a Trade deity in Calisham, a Elven deity in Evermeet, a Dwarf deity in the Great Rift, and the like. Yes, his doctrine is ruthless and cruel but ultimately the strife he spreads is immaterial so long as he gains worship from the erroneous fools. I see "Mina" from Dragonlance's War of Souls as the perfect Cyricist. "WORSHIP THE ONE!" "What kind of god is he?" "THE ULTIMATE GOD!" Personally, I think Cyric would have been alot more respected if they'd made sure to make it known more his modus apparandi. Have less "Cyric's worshippers fight each other" and more "Lie, Lie, Lie." I would have made him NE myself personally and incorporated more of his old personality (Cyric is the ltimate schemer...more Sirrus from Myst than Achenar. Then again Kelemvor would have been more confirmably lawful neutral and Mystra would have been Neutral as well with possibly good tendencies. One thing I will say though is Shar is not the Ultimate Cthulhu-esque entity that people give her credit for. I do believe she lost her porfolios not by choice as I think personally that Talos, Sune, Mystra, Lathander, and Selune have routinely ganged up on her....and its only recently that the pressure has been off her. Honestly, I wouldn't mind Cyric being defeated by Bane and the Chaotic Evil aspects of his porfolio removed that ultimately would render him simply the God of Murder, Assassins, and perhaps Strife. Cyric would make an excellent god of slayers I think and he could go back almost perfectly to his old personality. As for Talos, I believe the issue regarding whether Talos is evil is the fact that Talos honestly doesn't care for good or evil one way or another. I agree that he's Chaotic Neutral because Talos would gladly destroy an evil kingdom as much as he'd sweep away a good kingdom. He's the god of Chaos in my opinion, as much as anybody, and might support a Holy Liberator as much as a Black Guard...its just good people are less drawn to him than others. someone mentioned this earlier by the way and I've got to ask it? Is it realistic at all that the Red Wizards of Thay are becoming merchants while the Black Network is becoming an expanionistic military empire? Wouldn't it have made more sense for Manshoon once back in power to convince Fzoul to start mass marketing magic from enclaves? I would have also had the Shade incident allow the Thayans to expand downwards to the shores of the Moon Sea and start their own Navy, then they could possibly conquer Mulmaster or Unther (the parts not controlled by Mulhorandi)
DSPAYRE 10-17-04, 07:20 PM	I look for the Cult of the Dragon to make a big impact in the near future, especially since Sammaster is back and they are now building a fortress in the Well of Dragons :88E: :88E:
GothicDan 10-17-04, 07:26 PM	One thing I will say though is Shar is not the Ultimate Cthulhu-esque entity that people give her credit for. I do believe she lost her porfolios not by choice as I think personally that Talos, Sune, Mystra, Lathander, and Selune have routinely ganged up on her....and its only recently that the pressure has been off her. I'd like to see some facts to back this up. :) As of the Netheril boxed set, Shar is allies with pretty much every evil deity, and was only enemies with Selune and Amaunator. She's just too sneaky to have too many enemies, because 90% of the pantheon probably has no clue what she's doing. If anything, I think it's Shar who would be the one to say that she is this alignment here, that alignment there, etc., the way that you portray Cyric. After all, she did, at one point, have hatred, intrigue, murder, illusions, and lies as her portfolios, among other things. We have never even heard "rumors" of Shar losing any major amount of power. It's said that in both 2E and 3E, that Shar's main goal is to grab and hold power, and even against Selune she'd rather use pawns then her own clergy/minions. I really can't see how a Greater Deity could unwillingly lose her portfolios to a few mortals/lesser deities (like Mask, Leira, etc.) without her just completely sending them into oblivion, and making it so that no one even remembered their names. As for Talos, I believe the issue regarding whether Talos is evil is the fact that Talos honestly doesn't care for good or evil one way or another. I agree that he's Chaotic Neutral because Talos would gladly destroy an evil kingdom as much as he'd sweep away a good kingdom. He's the god of Chaos in my opinion, as much as anybody, and might support a Holy Liberator as much as a Black Guard...its just good people are less drawn to him than others. Just like Cyric sows discord and murder even among his own evil worshippers? You really can't use the fact that "he destroys everything equally" argument to make him a neutral deity. If someone ran around with a flamethrower in real life and burned everyone he saw, whether or not they were "good" or "evil," wouldn't you consider that person to be evil? When it comes down to it, he is causing strife and destruction for no reason other than the fact that he likes it - and according to D&D, that's evil. He's described as being immature, petty, and a bully. That's not what I would consider an ambivalent/neutral deity. Just because you destroy evil doesn't make you good, or even neutral, remember. If Thay suddenly declared war on the Zhentarim, would that make them neutral? I think not.
Charles Phipps 10-17-04, 08:07 PM	I just don't think you can apply an alignment to a personification of nature in terms of good and evil. Talos is a big storm. I can't really say he's evil because he's totally insane. Velsharoon- Velsharoon is going to either make a dramatic gain fairly soon or he's going to die. If he dies then he'll have officially go down as the stupidest god of all time. If he survives then we should all have significant respect for the god of Liches. Velsharoon will not profit by betraying Mystra to Shar and it will ruin his relationship with her. Not fleeing again will result in him getting crushed by Mystra and Azuth before his ashes are scattered to the wind. Thus, there are two places he can flee that I can see (aside from hiding on the Prime like Gargauth and he can do that since no one knows he's there). The first place he can flee is Bane, the second is shockingly Kelemvor. Bane is the most likely by far and frankly its a bit disturbing that he didn't go to him in the first place (barring the fact he was dead). Velsharoon and Bane are both Lawful Evil, Bane has a history of Lich-Gods serving him, and both are strapped for allies in their own particular way. Bane is also powerful enough to chase away Mystra's vengence. If Velsharoon joins Bane then its likely he'll get the position of evil spellcasters to become Azuth's opposite and possibly his pick of Cyric's porfolios should he die (Murder and Strife most likely since Mask is back). In which case then Velsharoon would probably become a Intermediate God and well on his way to becoming a greater under Bane. Bane would also make it clear he would KILL Velsharoon no matter WHAT god he fled to if he ever betrayed him. If Velsharoon allies with Kelemvor he might become the god of everything Kel despises so he doesn't have to take them over (like Tempus and Garagos along with Mystra/Vel to a certain extent). Unlikely but possible. If it happens then Vel would probably become the god of decay, entropy, undeath, necromancy, and murder....a lesser and maybe intermediate god depending on the circumstances. Kel would smack him down at the first opportunity though that he started eyeing his position even as he'd probably have to start expanding himself just in case.
BrianCritchley 10-17-04, 09:52 PM	guys keep in mind that divine changes can occur quickly, but most likely they occur slower after centuries... He effectively built the entire Black Network, perhaps the most universally hated and fear evil organization in all of Faerun. Bane didn't build the black network, subverted maybe beut he didn't BUILD it, Manshoon did. Fzoul just took it over and made some structural changes to it. and even then that was Xvim, not Bane, Bane just sort of walked back on the stage of faerun inheriting some stuff. yes Bane is the big evil god who is worshipped primarily by the Zhents, but Cyric once held that status too. sure he ****** off the Zhents but Bane hasn't been around to long, maybe next year Fzoul will do something tremendously stupid that will result in him getting deposed and the bulk of the Zhents worshipping some other god. the Black network is a MORTAL DEVELOPMENT, one Bane's involvment with was minor at best. as for what bane's done, umm I hate to break this to you, but 90% of Bane's achoimplishments have been over Milennia. Cyric's been a god for what 20 years? sure Bane killed a demi-god, but Cyric killed a lesser god. If you actually use deity stats, which it seems like the majority of people informed the most about the topic (2E players, mostly), do not. ahh yes the informed people who know stuff totatlly ignore the offical word and use their opinion! my what a remarkably arrogant thing to say. you may not like em but deity stats are offical. thus you can't claim to be informed and then ignore them. I see LE as acting more behind the scenes than CE, myself. not nesscarily, alignment doesn't matter in acting behind the scenes, CE can do it just as easily as LE can. the differance might be subtle, a CE person would likely act behind the scenes by ignoreing the rules, while a LE person would simply twist the rules to his effect. a revolutionary vs a lawyer if you will. for the record in the book of vile darkness the "scheming liar" arctype they show is CE. Completely your opinion, here. I think that Cyric has no reason for being the DvR he is or having the number of worshippers that he does. He effectively has the portfolios of Leira and a portion of Bhaal's former portfolios. He's given up the bulk of his power already to Kelemvor and Mask. actually just as a fact check, Cyric absorbed some of Mask's power, not the other way around. also the thing is you don't need to be worshipped as a patron deity nesscarily to gain power, or at least this is my interpretation. in this case mearly being feared will suffice. now I belive Bane will eventually grow in power and Cyric will decline, but I don't see Cyric loosing all his power.
Lord_Anthrax 10-17-04, 10:17 PM	Manshoon built the Zhentarim, and IMO he's going to retake it as soon as his current plans are in order. I'd say the reason he hasn't retaken it already is because he wants to devote his time to a project I imagine Elminster dedicates a fair portion of time to delaying, subverting and ruining. Manshoon wants to find a way to have multiple bodies active at once while retaining control of all of them, and switch control between them freely. Or perhaps find a way to control them all simultaneously. Of the archmagi on Faerun, Manshoon is one of the few has that special combination of intelligence, talent, creativity, ambition and ruthlessness that could make him unbelievably dangerous and a credible threat to conquering the world. It's actions on Elminster's behalf that keep him from ever advancing too far in his plots, but now Manshoon has more time to dedicate to this while he lets Fzoul run the Zhentarim for him, and he'll not waste a second once his plans reach fruition to knock Fzoul of out the top slot, and IMO tell Bane where he can go and stick it afterwards. Manshoon strikes me as the sort that would never be content ruling the world. To him, it still wouldn't be safety enough. Top mortal is nothing but second fiddle to the gods as far as that goes. I'd see Manshoon doing his best to raze the pantheons of their power and become the One True God, if he had the chance to. Remember Agent Smith from Matrix: Revolutions? Something like that is the kind of world where he'd be happy, IMO.
WizO_BigSister 10-18-04, 12:41 AM	I am really glad to see someone trying to continue the positive aspects of the discussion in a new thread. People do want to know your ideas and opinions and they will be read. However please, please, please .... * No accusing authors of ripping anyone off, or stealing ideas (which is commonly known as libel!) * If you start talking about the person who wrote the post rather than what they actually wrote then you have crossed the line from what is ok to what is not ok. You don't have to stoop to name slinging and/or swearing to be insulting and harassing! Please note ... I am not citing any names or posts from the last few threads along these lines that have ended up being closed (and yes there have been a few threads on this very topic shut down for exactly these reasons). If you read the first paragraph and felt guilty or that I was picking on you then maybe your conscience is trying to tell you something ;)
Charles Phipps 10-18-04, 01:04 AM	The Fall of House Jaerle- I can't see the Vhaerun worshippers suceeding in perverting the Myth magic to themselves. They don't have the magical "oomph" necessary to do so and the end of the Retreat pretty much signals to me that the elves WILL come on "Drow hunting" expeditions now the likes of neverbefore seen. Now, they don't have to go to the Underdark to kill Drow! They can satisfy their incredibly racist and hate filled philosophy directly. I can imagine "Planet of the Apes" style hunts where Gold Elves bring back scalps. It's a bad day to be a Drow. Now if Gromph had taken over Cormanthor and was trying to do it then there might have been a snowball's chance in Hell of it succeeding. Manshoon- I agree, Manshoon is a character who actually has something going for him in villain competence. I think when he does take control over the Zhents again he's going to immediately figure some way to pervert the Red Wizards scattered across the land from Nationalism to blatant self interest. I also think he's going to arrange for a treaty with Cormyr to satisfy their food shortage too in order to fully make the Zhents an accepted power in the region. Fzoul will be too busy consolidating his power base. The problem with the pair is the fact that they are too often at each others throats. Manshoon is subtle Fzoul is not but subtle sometimes is TOO weak and its better to use a BIG HAMMER when a scalpel won't do. Sammaster- He's going to be Chosen of Tiamat and then he's going to make the Cult of the Dragon more general Dragon worshippers. It'll be less insane but alot more dragons will serve them and suddenly the cult is going to be a credible threat to the ARCHWIZARDS in my opinion
GothicDan 10-18-04, 12:30 PM	I just don't think you can apply an alignment to a personification of nature in terms of good and evil. Talos is a big storm. I can't really say he's evil because he's totally insane. That's a valid personal interpretation, but in D&D rules, insanity does not justify alignment. Actions justify alignment. You don't think that there is a slew of insane CE people out there? I mean.. Cyric was insane! Was he no longer evil during that time? No. In fact, I think insanity often gives you more pure, distilled alignments than sanity, because it shows you what truly lies in a person's mind after all of the societal onion-layers have been peeled away. So you can say you believe Talos isn't evil, and I won't fault you for it, but his actions and his reasons behind them define Talos as evil, as far as D&D is concerned. So his alignment is right on. Just as Lathander's alignment is right on as good, even though he represents a "part of nature," as well as Chauntea's. Bane didn't build the black network, subverted maybe beut he didn't BUILD it, Manshoon did. Fzoul just took it over and made some structural changes to it. and even then that was Xvim, not Bane, Bane just sort of walked back on the stage of faerun inheriting some stuff. yes Bane is the big evil god who is worshipped primarily by the Zhents, but Cyric once held that status too. sure he ****** off the Zhents but Bane hasn't been around to long, maybe next year Fzoul will do something tremendously stupid that will result in him getting deposed and the bulk of the Zhents worshipping some other god. the Black network is a MORTAL DEVELOPMENT, one Bane's involvment with was minor at best. as for what bane's done, umm I hate to break this to you, but 90% of Bane's achoimplishments have been over Milennia. Cyric's been a god for what 20 years? sure Bane killed a demi-god, but Cyric killed a lesser god. Since part of the discussion is that Bane is too frontal/aggressive and not much of a schemer, the fact that he subverted the Zhentarim is wonderful evidence to the contrary. Thank you. And according to F&A, since the scarce few years since Bane's return, it's been said that the Zhentarim has been unified and is now stronger than ever. And Bane killed a demi-god while he was mortal; Cyric killed a Lesser God with the direct aid of another Lesser God (Mask in the form of a sword, remember). So not a terribly good comparison. as for what bane's done, umm I hate to break this to you, but 90% of Bane's achoimplishments have been over Milennia. Cyric's been a god for what 20 years? sure Bane killed a demi-god, but Cyric killed a lesser god. And please make sure you check references. Bane has only been around for 1,500 years, tops, because before that his portfolios were split between Jergal and Shar. And once more, Cyric only killed a Lesser God because he wielded a sword that was a lesser god. ahh yes the informed people who know stuff totatlly ignore the offical word and use their opinion! my what a remarkably arrogant thing to say. you may not like em but deity stats are offical. thus you can't claim to be informed and then ignore them. Yup, when it comes to certain things, I'm terribly arrogant and I admit that, so nothing you say in that regard will really affect this argument, for future reference. And I can claim to be informed and choose not to use the information because they are two different things. I know that some people believe in God, and I don't worship a deity. And it's easy to ignore the deity stats, because according to them, a lot of Faerun's divine history would have NEVER happened the way it has. not nesscarily, alignment doesn't matter in acting behind the scenes, CE can do it just as easily as LE can. the differance might be subtle, a CE person would likely act behind the scenes by ignoreing the rules, while a LE person would simply twist the rules to his effect. a revolutionary vs a lawyer if you will. Granted, some CE people are just as elusive as the LE. But, as I said before, the really big, well-known evil people of history who have affected the world around them outside of a small cultural/regional area have been LE. Which was the point I was making. for the record in the book of vile darkness the "scheming liar" arctype they show is CE. Considering that was the first 3E book I ever bought, I am fully aware of that. Just as I am aware of the fact that in the same book, it lists the master of subtlety, scheming, and plotting as LE - Asmodeus. actually just as a fact check, Cyric absorbed some of Mask's power, not the other way around. And Mask regained some of his power at the time that Cyric lost the portfolios of Death and the Dead to Kelemvor. also the thing is you don't need to be worshipped as a patron deity nesscarily to gain power, or at least this is my interpretation. in this case mearly being feared will suffice. I didn't say that, did I? No, I questioned the number of worshippers that he has, as listed in LoD, which I believe is more than Shar's (the oldest evil Church, which Shar specifically does NOT use in acts that would kill her worshippers, as opposed to Cyric's, which encouraged internal murder) and Bane's. now I belive Bane will eventually grow in power and Cyric will decline, but I don't see Cyric loosing all his power. I agree with you there.
GothicDan 10-18-04, 12:37 PM	More opinions. 1. House Jaelre: I agree that they really have no chance to pervert the mythal to their desires, at least if you go by what has been considered canon. In 2E, 30+ level Phaerimm couldn't do that. The best they could do was emulate a 4th level weave mythal as a natural ability. If the drow can get much more than that, I will be very upset, because it would be degrading the phaerimm and the power of the elves' mythal. 2. Mansoon: I like him, and I hope he takes the Zhentarim back from Fzoul. Yes, Fzoul isn't my favorite person, and I don't even like Bane all that much. 3. Sammaster: I haven't read the Rage novels, but from what I've heard about them, Sammaster seems to be a rising power. I don't think he would be dumb enough to directly challenge the Shades even if he did become a Chosen of Tiamat (considering Telamont or someone in the city is probably a Chosen of Shar), but I could see them hammering out an alliance. Imagine Shade protected by a small army of evil dragons and dracoliches? Not JUST the Suzerain and his blues.
Mirtek 10-18-04, 01:10 PM	Since part of the discussion is that Bane is too frontal/aggressive and not much of a schemer, the fact that he subverted the Zhentarim is wonderful evidence to the contrary. Thank you. And according to F&A, since the scarce few years since Bane's return, it's been said that the Zhentarim has been unified and is now stronger than ever. Except for the rift between the western and eastern Zhentarim and the fact that it all was nothing but Fzoul's and Xvim's doing, not Bane's who returned only after Fzoul/Xvim had already secured their power around the MoonseaBut, as I said before, the really big, well-known evil people of history who have affected the world around them outside of a small cultural/regional area have been LE. Which was the point I was making.That's certainly arguableAnd Mask regained some of his power at the time that Cyric lost the portfolios of Death and the Dead to Kelemvor. No, he didn't. That was the point where he lost the greatest part of his power. He already lost a large deal of power shortly before, but not because of Cyric but because of his own incompetence. As Cyric lost Dead and the Death, he did strike back at Mask at the very same time and took the portfolio of intrigue from Mask, who only barely survived.And once more, Cyric only killed a Lesser God because he wielded a sword that was a lesser god Sure, and being a greater god of murder didn't add anything to his success :rolleyes: And that Bane & Co. were actually secretly directed and aided by Jergal, a greater god, didn't add anything to their success against Borem. :sad:
Charles Phipps 10-18-04, 01:19 PM	Sammaster- The Shades lost a potential ally in the Cult of the Dragon when they murdered so many members in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. I believe their justification was the fact that they didn't want middle-men inbetween dealing with the Dracolich they allied with and considered the Cultists' insects. I do agree they won't probably come to blows over it but I do think that the "new and improved" Sammaster will probably object to "blue dragon" slavery. The Rise of New Netheril- I believe that the Shades can't melt the High Ice as quickly but I do believe the Netherese are going to start fixing Anauroch rather quickly. It's a pity they are such crazy Sharists, as I'd like to see some of the New Netherese recruits be less such crazy fanatics and the creation of new city-states on the ground that I predict will allow this. These will probably be made of Haruula, Cthondathan, and other people who "look Netherese" (in a NON-Godwin's law breaking statement about Nazis- it'll probably amount to the Netherese seeking people who 'look' their particular version of Aryan...which seems to be fairly Mediteranian oddly) Given the disasters of the cold winters in Cormyr, I percieve lots of bad weather all round for their fellows. No new Gods or dead gods- This is a WOTC prediction but I think they're finally not going to fiddle with the pantheon anymore and I personally like that, keeping everything as is will result in largely a much more stable and enjoyable game all round. EVENTS will still occur but I think 15 years down the line Kel will still be god of the dead and Cyric will be about. Loviathar- I personally want to know what she's up to. Is that fan made novel still a go? I wish I'd known about that contest before it'd happen, I doubt I would have won but given I'm a professional author I might have stood a half a chance more than anyone. I predict we'll see some developments with her but I do want to see Dambrath fleshed out more. I'd like to see Shar, Loviathar, and Cyric infilitrating the Underdark from there. I personally have always had the idea even if its highly non-canon that Mask is actually the "masked" god Vhaeraun but an incarnation that might as well be seperate (like Earthmother and Chauntaea are seperate but the same in some ways) To expand on some ideas also, I think that this is also a great idea (now that we have moderator's approval) to also post ideas for campaigns that might prove realistic too....this is dangerous though and I ask everyone to respect people's opinions as well. RE: Mirtek and GothicDan's arguement of Bane vs. Cyric The Players at my campaign call this "Ghaundaur's Law" if you want to hear some of our peculiar lingo. Allow me to explain Ghaundaur's law like the gamer-jargon dictionary (what a great site) Ghaundaur's Law- (Gond-arr's La-ah) 1. The law of the god of jellies, oozes, and slimes. 2. The state of a campaign villain who is portrayed in a specific Dungeon Master's campaign as far more competent or brilliant than he might be interpreted from canon sources. See antonym in Finder's Law. Word Origin: Ghaundaur's law stems from a 1999 campaign in which Ghaundaur is revealed to be not only a minor god of sludge but also the god Tharizdun, Ao's suppressed and imprisoned other half, the god Azathoth from the Cthulhu Mythos, the source of all the demons in the abyss from his 'dark dreams', the void shar worships, the father of Jubilex, but also the eventual destroyer of the universe when he escapes. Basically, whenever Ghaundaur's law is invoked in our campaign that means that a certain god is pretty much the shavit. He's the most intelligent, ruthless, awesomely powerful, and nasty being in the cosmos...because the Dungeon master in question has an affection for the being and its POSSIBLE to interpret said god as just "THAT GOOD" with canon sources without breaking canon (which is ironic since Ghaundaur's law blatantly breaks canon). Both Cyric and Bane could be ultra geniuses beyond any measure of time and being gods, my opinion is that both of them are exactly that. To quote the Bible, Bane will strike at the serpent's head while the serpent will strike at his heel. There's honestly no way to predict who would win an eventual confrontation if both are portrayed the way that their fans like to portray them. It would be ironically more the province of their priests than anything else and the events that they can take advantage of. Both would simply be above and beyond the level of mortal intrigues comprehension. I think both raise good points personally and its obvious different sources give Bane and Cyric more credit than others. Malik and Cyric is a FUNNY book, Prince of Lies has Cyric as a dangerous rogue but incompetent, the Time of Troubles has Bane as an idjit half the time
GothicDan 10-18-04, 01:28 PM	Except for the rift between the western and eastern Zhentarim and the fact that it all was nothing but Fzoul's and Xvim's doing, not Bane's who returned only after Fzoul/Xvim had already secured their power around the Moonsea And Xvim was only a pawn of Bane. And Bane stopped the infighting among his own Church members, putting Fzoul firmly at the head, which was a competant decision that made him all the stronger. That's certainly arguable It is. But it's amazing how LE Asmodeus seemed to be based on all of the D&D concepts of scheming and subtlety. Considering he's been one of the iconic schemers of AD&D since 1E, I think that it's pretty safe to assume that, in general, AD&D associates such archetypes as LE. I'm not saying that's an absolute, but rather it's representative of the RL Tyrant image who comes to power and uses laws as tools to oppress and control the populace. No, he didn't. That was the point where he lost the greatest part of his power. He already lost a large deal of power shortly before, but not because of Cyric but because of his own incompetence. As Cyric lost Dead and the Death, he did strike back at Mask at the very same time and took the portfolio of intrigue from Mask, who only barely survived. Granted. I was not remembering things correctly. :) Sure, and being a greater god of murder didn't add anything to his success It detracts from it, in fact. A Greater God can slay a Lesser God! .. Um. Good job. I can also put on my shoes.. And that Bane & Co. were actually secretly directed and aided by Jergal, a greater god, didn't add anything to their success against Borem. I have heard this theory myself, and while I wouldn't put it past Jergal doing such a thing, I haven't seen any printed proof of it. And even if it did happen, I think a trio of Epic level characters who spent years adventuring and destroying demipowers is a LOT more impressive than a low-level rogue who happened to be at the right place at the right time, wielding a Lesser-God-Made-Sword, and then for some reason Ao gave him jurisdiction not over just the portfolio of the Lesser god he slew, but also the two GREATER GODS that he didn't slay.
Charles Phipps 10-18-04, 01:31 PM	I just edited my opinion of this arguement above you Gothic Dan, Mirtek. I think you'll find it interesting. Velsharoon and Ssass Tam- This probably won't happen but I think Velsharoon is going to punish Ssass Tam in some way for forbiding his worship. I think it won't take long for Ssass to get the message honestly when his undead hordes all refuse to start obeying him or he's unable to cast necromantic spells.... Or his Lichiness starts to decay with no way to reverse. That's assuming Vel doesn't simply support some adventurers to cap Ssass Tam for annoying him.
CzarGarrett 10-18-04, 02:30 PM	I just edited my opinion of this arguement above you Gothic Dan, Mirtek. I think you'll find it interesting. Velsharoon and Ssass Tam- This probably won't happen but I think Velsharoon is going to punish Ssass Tam in some way for forbiding his worship. I think it won't take long for Ssass to get the message honestly when his undead hordes all refuse to start obeying him or he's unable to cast necromantic spells.... Or his Lichiness starts to decay with no way to reverse. That's assuming Vel doesn't simply support some adventurers to cap Ssass Tam for annoying him. Or Velashroon tries to take out Tam, and Tam is able to take out Velashroon and become a God himself.
BrianCritchley 10-18-04, 02:40 PM	And Xvim was only a pawn of Bane he may have been but xvim was calling the shots when he united the eastren zhentraium. And Bane stopped the infighting among his own Church members, putting Fzoul firmly at the head, which was a competant decision that made him all the stronger. BANE DIDN'T DO THAT, XVIM DID THAT! I have heard this theory myself, and while I wouldn't put it past Jergal doing such a thing, I haven't seen any printed proof of it. And even if it did happen, I think a trio of Epic level characters who spent years adventuring and destroying demipowers is a LOT more impressive than a low-level rogue who happened to be at the right place at the right time, wielding a Lesser-God-Made-Sword, and then for some reason Ao gave him jurisdiction not over just the portfolio of the Lesser god he slew, but also the two GREATER GODS that he didn't slay. I agree, stikes me as odd that AO roise torm but not Bane, as Bane was killed likewise in the furtherment of his protfolio
GothicDan 10-18-04, 02:51 PM	BANE DIDN'T DO THAT, XVIM DID THAT! All the better to use your pawns and stay behind the curtains, no? A Greater God coming out of a Lesser God? Seems to me like someone was a puppet.
Charles Phipps 10-18-04, 03:42 PM	All the better to use your pawns and stay behind the curtains, no? A Greater God coming out of a Lesser God? Seems to me like someone was a puppet. Re: Bane vs. Xvim Actually, its been stated Xvim was calling the shots until the Tyrant Fog when all the dead Banites and bane liches caused something to reach an apothesis in him. Bane may have prepped Xvim ahead of time but the fact remains that Xvim was mostly handling things until the destruction of dang near all of Bane's loyalists I can also imagine Ssass Tam vs. Velsharoon (remember Vel was 29th level in unlife to begin with) Ssass Tam: You are mine now Velsharoon. Velsharoon: *yawn* Bar from Undeath. Ssass Tam: Eh? *crumbles to dust*
BrianCritchley 10-18-04, 05:41 PM	All the better to use your pawns and stay behind the curtains, no? A Greater God coming out of a Lesser God? Seems to me like someone was a puppet. someone wasn't a puppet. someone was a seed. if it was always Bane operating there why would he wait? nope. Bane was dead. he only ressurected in early 1372.
Cunning Linguist 10-18-04, 05:44 PM	I can also imagine Ssass Tam vs. Velsharoon (remember Vel was 29th level in unlife to begin with) Ssass Tam: You are mine now Velsharoon. Velsharoon: *yawn* Bar from Undeath. Ssass Tam: Eh? *crumbles to dust* Unless Szass Tam pulls out his Netheril Scepter of Protection against dusty powers who he got at the Larloch pawn shop for another trinket or two.
Charles Phipps 10-19-04, 11:51 AM	Oh bah, Velsharoon has just as much a chance to deal with Larloch as Ssass Tam! I had an interesting thought personally, Amn is making alot of money off Maztica. While I'm not sure that the rampant plagues and civil war that so beautifully (horrifically) brought down the Aztec/Inca civilization will happen in the world of FR...I do think it might be interesting to see the rise of this region to great power, perhaps eclipsing the other nations in the region with the fall of Comyr. The Death of Gargauth is something I also speculate on. Eventually, someone will figure out he's behind the Knights of the Shield. A demigod is not something you want running around wild. I predict then that Gargauth will either be revealed to be the Son of Bane (is he Xvim reincarnated?) or he will join the Tyrant Lord....or he'll be slaughtered by Bane for more power to him. Something cool I wouldn't mind seeing would be the sacking of Waterdeep, in canon it'll never happen but the orc states King Obould make it entirely possible that it COULD happen.
GothicDan 10-19-04, 12:06 PM	I would love to see Gargauth absorbed by Bane or become his complete subservient. The idea of another Lord of the Nine never sat very well with me, because I don't remember him really being backed up in Planescape. I'd like to see the Twisted Rune expand into Amn. And considering the Lord's Alliance, I don't realistically see Waterdeep falling from an attack of orcs.
Charles Phipps 10-19-04, 01:14 PM	The fact that he comes from nowhere. I mean, no offense, but what in Ao's green Toril do you need to do to get banished from HELL? Was he part of the Revolt against Asmodeus? did he try to make peace with the Tana'ari? The problem I see with him is the fact that Gargauth is pretty much identical to Gra'azt, even down to his absorbing the Prime Material into this plane and it would have been much better in my opinion to simply have Gargauth be an avatar of Gra'azt. I guess they just wanted him to be LE instead of chaotic. It's why Kiaranshlee killed Orcus instead of Velsharoon (which makes more sense) I still like to think Gargauth became a god though by being nothing more or less than Xvim's dead essence born in the Hells. It would at least give him an origin. I also see Phaerimm vs. Shade War- Basically, we know the Phaerimm aren't attacking Everveska because of the Mythal but I'm also fairly sure that the shades haven't forgotten their racial hatred either so its my opinion that the Sharites will swoop down now to finish their age old enemies. In my opinion, its going to be the only "realistic" thing of evil vs. evil we've seen in a while but the sad fact is that WOTC won't cover it because the conflict would destroy both's potential for villains. In a 'realistic' setting, I'd see the end of shade and the phaerimm in it.
Faraer 10-19-04, 06:58 PM	Gargoth/Gargauth was "summoned to Faerûn long ago, and preferred to wander, working evil in the Realms, to dwelling on his own plane". He was introduced in Dragon #91 in 1984, way before Planescape, and he may have been conceived before Graz'zt (with whom I see little resemblance) was published.
GothicDan 10-19-04, 07:26 PM	Gargoth/Gargauth was "summoned to Faerûn long ago, and preferred to wander, working evil in the Realms, to dwelling on his own plane". He was introduced in Dragon #91 in 1984, way before Planescape, and he may have been conceived before Graz'zt (with whom I see little resemblance) was published. Faraer, once more you bring up knowledge that many of us are unaware of. :) So, in 2E where it states that he was "banished from Baator" by the Lords of the Nine, that was actually retconned from the original article? Was he actually described as a former Lord of the Nine in that article, as well?
Charles Phipps 10-19-04, 07:41 PM	Faraer, once more you bring up knowledge that many of us are unaware of. :) So, in 2E where it states that he was "banished from Baator" by the Lords of the Nine, that was actually retconned from the original article? Was he actually described as a former Lord of the Nine in that article, as well? Having just read the article myself 1984 November issue, the article unfortunately still leaves something to be desired. Gargauth is explained better though, I will confess (Gargoth is his name but I keep hearing the Smuf's theme when i say that) Gargauth left the Nine Hells when his ally Bebith was destroyed (I think you fought him in one of the FR computer games) and most believed him to have incurred the displeasure of Asmodeus. It doesn't say what Lair of Hell he ruled, if any, but it states he was THE most powerful arch-devil after Asmodeus himself. I would venture forth the theory then that Gargauth is actually the REAL Lord of the Ninth Lair of Hell while Asmodeus is actually an avatar of the serpent. If you don't subscribe to that theory then its quite likely he instead ruled the 8th or had some other position, just like Asmodeus' rank isn't known when he overthrew Lucifer for his position according to Ed. Planescape Fans would probably thus note the theory Asmodeus as an Elder Baatorian who betrayed his race but whom defeated the Yugoloth created Baatezu's leader Lucifer (or Fallen solar depending on your definition) whom Gargauth might have been second to before Asmodeus too. There's plenty of interesting ideas here...but the most interesting is the fact that Ed states what Gargoth is REALLY up to. Gargauth is actually held in the highest esteem by Asmodeus and Garguath is entirely loyal (or satified with current leadership) to Asmodeus with no desire to rule the Nine Hells. His ambitions are instead built into the Prime Material Plane.
Nivek_kpk 10-19-04, 11:27 PM	You guys are all thinking too long term in my opionion. 1st. The massive amounts of orcs tearing up the north. Regardless of the actions of a certain drow and his friends the orcs are still bound to do some damage. 2nd. Those crazy half-deamon sun elves that have recently been freed. They're totally gonna wreck the north even furthure. 3rd. All those crazy dragons are gonna reduce the global population significantly. I forsee the destruction or at least severe damage to major cities (ie. Waterdeep, Suzail, and the like) 4th. The furthure takeover of Cormathor by the darkelves. I think they'll form a sort of dark-cormathor...like the antithesis of the original cormantor. 5th. i'm sure the simbuls realm is going to get steamrolled by the Red Wizards, with all the extra income and information coming in from there enclaves, it's my opionion that'll the'll crush the puny realm of berserkers and witches. Thanks pretty much my take on whats gonna happen in the next year - year and a half. nivek
BrianCritchley 10-20-04, 06:40 AM	my honest to god prediction for what'll happen in the next year and a half? the elves will start returning in force. I further more predict that by the end of 1374 the elves will not only be in position, but in the process of reclaiming Cormanthor. as for the red wizards. they'll no doubt try and u se their enclaves for neferious purposes. like brining an army into the middle of waterdeep. unfortunatly for them Mystra has already directed h er chosen to subtally..... ensure that doesn't happen.
Charles Phipps 10-20-04, 07:05 PM	I hope Ti'amat will show up here personally. Basically, my next point is one that will make this thread more controversial and spark alot of discussion. Remember this is only opinions thogh BUTT..... WHAT WASN'T REALISTIC IN THE PAST OF FORGOTTEN REALMS I have quite a few of these, realize again its only my opinion thogh and I'm open minded about it. 1. Zhentil Keep would have crushed the Dales under their boot long ago The only reason that I can see for Zhentil Keep not to have taken the Dales is the possibility that Cormanthor or Cormyr wanted a buffer state with the burgeoning Empire of Manshoon. While Zhentil Keep was highly weakened post Cyric sacking (which would have been repulsed anyway) with Cormyr in current straights, Cormanthor abandoned, and the Zhents recovered....I would think that they'd sweep through without difficulty. 2. The Red Wizards would have destroyed Agaralrond The Simbul cannot hold off an Empire forever even as she's extremely powerful. Frankly, the moment that she left for the Shades would be the moment that they pour in and annex the whole thing. Note, I don't list Rashemi and believe personally that any army in Faerun would fail against them EXCEPT.... 3. The Tugian Horde would have destroyed Rashemi 200,000 Horsemen would have just burned every forrest and village to the ground before slaying any survivors. I admit horsemen aren't the best for a forrested society to destroy but I think they'd have won. Also, I think the Thayans couldn't have teleported them, more realistic would have been LETTING THEM PASS THROUGH THAY UNMOLESTED. 4. Kelemvor wouldn't have been able to overthrow Cyric I believe that ao made him a deity though early so I cut him slack, either that or Mask was sponsoring him as a deity and EVERYONE agreed to allow it to happen. 5. Spellfire The Shandril Sheshair books I actually won't complain about. I don't think of them as books meant to be taken seriously. I sort of view Shandril as the "buffy" of the dracula hammer flick verse that is the Realms. Sort of a play against type. I don't think Manshoon would have expended the effort to acquire her that he did and if he did, he would have simply tried some old villain mainstays like threatening innocents or convincing her to fight bad guys he disliked after the first few attacks. El also would have put better protection on her. 6. The Deities behavior in Avatar Trilogy No...just...no. At least in behavior. Storm wouldn't have gone looney tunes over another one of El's percieved deaths either 7. Either the Phaerim would have been annihilated toot sweet or the Elves would have lost Everveska No inbetween in my opinion. The Phaerim would have either roled over the city and annihilated it with their numbers or Corellon, as described in books that he would, would have simply smote the invading army without batting an elflash.
BrianCritchley 10-20-04, 07:36 PM	The only reason that I can see for Zhentil Keep not to have taken the Dales is the possibility that Cormanthor or Cormyr wanted a buffer state with the burgeoning Empire of Manshoon. ever heard of the "chicken bone Defence" Zhentil keep COULD conquer the Dales.. but, doing so would leave them weak and open to being hurt elsewhere. I agree that now more then ever the dales are vunerable. but will Fzoul choose to waste his time with the Dales? he might decide there are other richer and easier targets to pluck. 2. The Red Wizards would have destroyed Agaralrond yes the symbul can't do EVERYTHING, this is why she trains apprentices etc. in fact I predict Agaralrond will slowly but surely become a magocracy in ti me as well 200,000 Horsemen would have just burned every forrest and village to the ground before slaying any survivors. I admit horsemen aren't the best for a forrested society to destroy but I think they'd have won. History is full of people winning despite the odds being against em. it may have just been a matter of the rashimai warriors being higher levels then the turgian hoarde. I mean a 5th level barbarian can take down a LOT of first level wariors. I lack the SB though so I dunno for sure. 4. Kelemvor wouldn't have been able to overthrow Cyric I agree thats never sat well with me. I think Kel had support from several devine sources, including Jergal who was working subtrally to undermine cyric. The Shandril Sheshair books I actually won't complain about. I don't think of them as books meant to be taken seriously. ohh definatly, Shandril's story is intended to be a fun story. just like well, all the realms books when you get down to it. 6. The Deities behavior in Avatar Trilogy keep in mind that the dei ties where stripped of most of their power. I think they where in a decidingly unknown situation and thus where behaving irationally. also their judgement was flawed and it SHOULD BE. the gods are pretty much omnipotent, and suddenly they are rendered mortal. the book hints at this actually. now then, if your used to planning well. as a god, then when your a mortal your gonna be less then perfect due to your not being used to a few concepts we take for granted 7. Either the Phaerim would have been annihilated toot sweet or the Elves would have lost Everveska whats so unrealistic about a seige. the elves had time to fortify their position, Evreska would be hard to just press in and take.
Charles Phipps 10-20-04, 07:52 PM	ever heard of the "chicken bone Defence" Zhentil keep COULD conquer the Dales.. but, doing so would leave them weak and open to being hurt elsewhere. I agree that now more then ever the dales are vunerable. but will Fzoul choose to waste his time with the Dales? he might decide there are other richer and easier targets to pluck. Rebuttal: I think the Dales are valuable to Zhentil Keep in the fact that the territory could be made into a very large empire given time. If Zhentil Keep could forify some of the towns and enrich them with their merchant plunder then Manshoon would have the makings of a gigantic Empire on his hands. If the Elves don't return the Lumber industry could be grand too. Realistic Addenum- If Manshoon is half the schemer he's said to be then they will make Scyulla into a 'new Lashan'. Make suitable arrangements with the Chosen to let them proceed and then they will unite the dales under her as Queen. Every town will have a Red Wizard and the place will become a Magocratic ally to 'distant' thay. yes the symbul can't do EVERYTHING, this is why she trains apprentices etc. in fact I predict Agaralrond will slowly but surely become a magocracy in ti me as well Unfortunately, the Agaralrond hate magic and I'm pretty sure at some point they will revolt against the Simbul and her magicians...the Sons of Hoar are the first sign of it I think. History is full of people winning despite the odds being against em. it may have just been a matter of the rashimai warriors being higher levels then the turgian hoarde. I mean a 5th level barbarian can take down a LOT of first level wariors. I lack the SB though so I dunno for sure. Maybe, I just saw the horde as while probably not AS good as having the calvary advantage as well as sheer numbers. 200,000 could sack any country in my opinion save perhaps Evermeet or Mulhorandi or Thay. I wouldn't have minded them conquering more perosnally or at least leaving ruins. I agree thats never sat well with me. I think Kel had support from several devine sources, including Jergal who was working subtrally to undermine cyric. Agreed. Either Ao himself and Mask was holding a Greater God of the Dead and Death while Cyric filled the role with his sword, unaware he didn't have it or Mystra, Oghma, and Jergal each donated power to him to do it. ohh definatly, Shandril's story is intended to be a fun story. just like well, all the realms books when you get down to it. True but there's a difference between "serious Realms", "Fun Realms", and "Dark Realms." Serious Realms is Moonshaes Trilogy and Drizzt, the characters are hurt and die with consequences to their actions. Shandril and Malik are fun Realms. Dark Realms is Return of the Archwizards and Elminster in Hell. keep in mind that the dei ties where stripped of most of their power. I think they where in a decidingly unknown situation and thus where behaving irationally. also their judgement was flawed and it SHOULD BE. the gods are pretty much omnipotent, and suddenly they are rendered mortal. the book hints at this actually. now then, if your used to planning well. as a god, then when your a mortal your gonna be less then perfect due to your not being used to a few concepts we take for granted Mayhaps, I still would have preferred some more majesty from bane and Kel. Of course the entire series would have done better by instead focusing on many gods. whats so unrealistic about a seige. the elves had time to fortify their position, Evreska would be hard to just press in and take. In terms of magic, no it wouldn't. The Beholders alone as described in numbers would have won the battle in about five minutes with the city cleared of all life. The Phaerimm had an unbeatable force on their hands and one that could have conquered the Realms in my opinion (I don't disregard there could be the numbers in their armies SOMEWHERE in the Underdark or that they were summoning them from another dimension or the REALLY deep Underdark...hell even cloning) 8. Kelemvor should be described as apathetic and uncaring The entry for him fails awesomely to convey the Trial's focus on him. He should be more like the "Lord of Necessity" or the Lawful Neutral version of Hades. Take a few lesson from the Dustmen, having achieved 'True Death' of all but his porfolio. He should be True Neutral and accept all worshippers that go to him along with probably have no problem with Undeath but MAJOR problem with falsehood. On the flip side, I don't see him as keeping the Wall either. I'm not sure Mystra really learned her lesson and would switch though.
GothicDan 10-20-04, 09:18 PM	The entry for him fails awesomely to convey the Trial's focus on him. He should be more like the "Lord of Necessity" or the Lawful Neutral version of Hades. Take a few lesson from the Dustmen, having achieved 'True Death' of all but his porfolio. If he took a lesson from the Dustmen, he'd pretty much end up like Myrkul. Remember the higher you go up in the Dustmen's ranking, the closer you tend towards Neutral Evil.
Charles Phipps 10-20-04, 09:34 PM	If he took a lesson from the Dustmen, he'd pretty much end up like Myrkul. Remember the higher you go up in the Dustmen's ranking, the closer you tend towards Neutral Evil. Not according my Factol's Manifesto. TRUE NEUTRAL was their nature. Uncaring about Law and Chaos. Their factol may have been their founder but he was more concerned about power than he was about achieving 'True Death' which made him a hypocrite.
GothicDan 10-20-04, 10:01 PM	Not according my Factol's Manifesto. TRUE NEUTRAL was their nature. Uncaring about Law and Chaos. Their factol may have been their founder but he was more concerned about power than he was about achieving 'True Death' which made him a hypocrite Actually, in the Factol's Manifesto, it says that they tend towards evil due to their "disrespect for life." Considering Skall was only 19th level and around for thousands of years, his desire for power for power's sake was hardly overwhelming.
Charles Phipps 10-20-04, 11:14 PM	Actually, in the Factol's Manifesto, it says that they tend towards evil due to their "disrespect for life." Considering Skall was only 19th level and around for thousands of years, his desire for power for power's sake was hardly overwhelming. That's the reality rather than the idea of painlessness though. Frankly, Myrkul made me sick with his naked ambition and greed. Wagnard from Lodoss was a good villain with his "World of the Undead" idea but I prefer the 'Lord of Necessity' Kelemvor.
GothicDan 10-20-04, 11:34 PM	That's the reality rather than the idea of painlessness though. Frankly, Myrkul made me sick with his naked ambition and greed. Not quite sure where you're going with this. You misquoted something wrong so now you try to turn it around to enforce your theory? The Factol's Manifesto says that they are evil because of their disrespect for life - when you're apathetic, you don't have much of a respect for everything, and when you think everything's dead anyway, what's the point in trying to indulge in the illusions of other ignorant beings? Skall was NE. Trevant, his successor, is NE. And if anyone is "greedy," it's Kelemvor. He apparently thinks that all souls are his souls, and thus his justification for hating undead. I didn't see Myrkul doing that. He merely had a disrespect for the perceived sanctity of life - which was exactly what the Dustmen's philosophy would espouse. So, if Kelemvor got a "lesson from the Dustmen," he would turn out much more like Myrkul. Myrkul wasn't evil for evil's sake - he was evil because he considered nothing sacred. Just like the Dustmen.
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 12:07 AM	Not quite sure where you're going with this. You misquoted something wrong so now you try to turn it around to enforce your theory? The Factol's Manifesto says that they are evil because of their disrespect for life - when you're apathetic, you don't have much of a respect for everything, and when you think everything's dead anyway, what's the point in trying to indulge in the illusions of other ignorant beings? Skall was NE. Trevant, his successor, is NE. What Misquote? Those with disrespect for life haven't reached True Death (which I liken to some Hindu beliefs and Buddhist ones of a state of not wanting) NE are probably more numerous since they know everyone is dead and thus its not wrong to kill them. However, they have failed to eliminate the passion that would make them care about such a thing and that frankly makes them poor dustmen. I also point out Factol Skall's immediate successor was Neutral, I don't like NEs in charge personally and its a sad trend that casts them in a bad light. I'm not asking for NGs who are identical to the Bleak Cabal (I can certainly see it though) but its not WRONG. And if anyone is "greedy," it's Kelemvor. He apparently thinks that all souls are his souls, and thus his justification for hating undead. I didn't see Myrkul doing that. He merely had a disrespect for the perceived sanctity of life - which was exactly what the Dustmen's philosophy would espouse. So, if Kelemvor got a "lesson from the Dustmen," he would turn out much more like Myrkul. Myrkul wasn't evil for evil's sake - he was evil because he considered nothing sacred. Just like the Dustmen. Kelemvor is the God of the Dead and that means every soul from the Seldarines to the Dwarven Pantheon to the Unther flow through him. Personally I hope he expands to Maztica, Zhakhara, and Shou Long. The Undead ARE his and his to do with what he pleased. Myrkul certainly did believe that they belonged to him, he just made use of them. Myrkul was also a power hungry maniac who extorted people's souls for money and the bereaved. He was an emotional and gross god who didn't learn the meaning of his station, abet he didn't do as poorly as Cyric did inside it. The Dustmen also consider Death extremely sacred, if nothing else its' the truth of the universe. While Kel and the Dustmen certainly disagree with the undead since the undead are closer to "true" death, Kelemvor operating from the function that there ARE living people, you can certainly be a Kelemvor dustman. He'd be disrespected and loathed by undead members but its a valid interpretation "Undead are close to death but 'stuck' like a cork in a bottle. Its our duty to free them back into the cycle." Kelemvor because he sees death as a beginning is all about improving its image, which would make him an odd dustmen like those guys who pass out flowers for the suicide booths in Soylent Green...but certainly not without point. By sacrificng his love for mystra, Kel has also made more steps to becoming a TRUE dead
Korgan26 10-21-04, 12:08 AM	Who are Cyrics powers in the Realms? I really can't think of any besides The Pereghost. Z
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 12:21 AM	Known Cyric worshippers at present are... The Pereghost- As mentioned, our Lord Soth. Semmenon- I don't doubt he'll come to work for the Dark Lord with a good offer. Dag Zoreth- An award goes out to Dag for the best portrayal of a Cyricist High Priest out there. Dag is not insane, Dag is an excellent planner, Dag works with traitors in the Zhenteriam as well as PALADINS OF SALUMAR, and Dag uses treachery to destroy a famed keep of Paladins. Dag also seeks to use the biggest stick there is he can find but if he can't, he simply flees with the majority of his forces intact and leaves an unstable political situation that may have directly contributed to the breakup of the harpers Malik- Malik is a humorous character but I think people should instead give the guy epic levels by this point. Malik is lying, scheming, fawning swine yet he came within a hair's breath of stealing the Heart of Karsus and also severely damaged Shar's cause with his activities leading to the death of several princes of shade. Frankly I'm pretty sure nothing will stop the Church of Cyric in Shadow now, they've been persecuted and the Sharists humiliated. They will become a powerful underground force I'm sure. The Pasha of Calimport- While the Twisted Rune truly rule, the Pasha being a Cyricist is a major point in the favor of the Church of the Dark moon.
GothicDan 10-21-04, 12:21 AM	What Misquote? Those with disrespect for life haven't reached True Death (which I liken to some Hindu beliefs and Buddhist ones of a state of not wanting) You're really getting the faction philosophy skewed here. This is NOT Hindu or Buddhist beliefs. No known Dustmen has reached True Death (at least not that we've seen for sure), and it's the philosophy itself that has no respect for life, NOT simply the individuals. And it's been stated that Skall could have reached True Death and has merely not done so, to show others along the path. NE are probably more numerous since they know everyone is dead and thus its not wrong to kill them. However, they have failed to eliminate the passion that would make them care about such a thing and that frankly makes them poor dustmen. What do you mean, "Care about such a thing?" The point is they're NOT caring. A normal Dustman does not go out and kill things for no reason. Jayke the Snake was cast out of the Dustmen for doing this. Your average, neutral evil dustman, does not act very evil. It's simply their disrespect for life (their philosophy) that makes them evil. By D&D standards, those who have no qualms with killing someone if it serves another purpose, or those who would not heal a dying person who has done absolutely nothing wrong to them, for no reason other than the fact that you didn't want to (and philosophy is naught but one's desires and how they fit into the scheme of things), are evil. I also point out Factol Skall's immediate successor was Neutral, I don't like NEs in charge personally and its a sad trend that casts them in a bad light. Factol Trevant is neutral evil - not neutral. If you're thinking of Oridi Malefin, you really need to get your facts straight, because while she was the second highest level Dustman after Skall (that we know of), she was NOT his second in command. She probably did, however, belong to the First Circle. The Dustmen also consider Death extremely sacred, if nothing else its' the truth of the universe. While Kel and the Dustmen certainly disagree with the undead since the undead are closer to "true" death, Kelemvor operating from the function that there ARE living people, you can certainly be a Kelemvor dustman. He'd be disrespected and loathed by undead members but its a valid interpretation I'm not going to get into the whole Kelemvor thing again, but from a planar standpoint - not Faerunian - any deity of death who thought that undeath was unnatural would garner no respect among the Dustmen. And there are specific deities that are listed as being the most respected by the Dustmen, and Kelemvor is not one of them. By sacrificng his love for mystra, Kel has also made more steps to becoming a TRUE dead And the Dustmen also believe that no deity can reach True Death - they're going in the wrong way, they say. If you're going to have this discussion, use facts about the faction in question - not assumptions that you believe appropriate, because others may not feel they are appropriate. Everything points to the Dustmen thinking Kelemvor as childish and simply wrong. Their philosophy is much more in line with Mykrul's (or even Shar's) than Kelemvor's dogmas.
ClobberinTime 10-21-04, 12:34 AM	If it weren't such taboo, the chosen of mystra and the princes of shade would be at each other throats like crazy. Shade and The shadow weave represent a huge threat to Mystra. I would think use of the shadow weave would spread pretty quick and that the first to pick up on it and use it would be the Red Wizards. The chosen have always had a serious advantage over the other weave users like Szass Tamm, well his devotion to any god seems suspect, he craves power, would he worship Shar to take out the Simbul, yes indeed. An alliance between Shade and the RWs has too many plusses for both sides not to happen. They could split up the world ala non-aggresion pact 1939. The chosen would have to react and chances are some would die and some princes of shade would die. The big losers in this- the Simbul is the first to go and the first target of this new alliance. Unless she stops traveling around alone, shes gonna get jumped and shes gonna get killed. Other big losers Khelben- Second on the hit list, why, once the mythallar is fixed wouldn't the city of shade look good looming over waterdeeps rich and vibrant harbor. Manshoon, i got two words- convert or die, Telamonts assessment of the Zhentarim is right on... Weak, weak weak As a dm the entrance of shade is a great opportunity to kill off some chosen, I'd leave storm, el, laerel, quilue, and Dove, and leave two princes and Telamont, The Simbul buys it at the cost of Szass Tamms undead life and whalaaa order is restored. Aglarond is RW territory That being said Cyric is toast....
Cole Deschain 10-21-04, 12:52 AM	Kelemvor is the God of the Dead and that means every soul from the Seldarines to the Dwarven Pantheon to the Unther flow through him. Personally I hope he expands to Maztica, Zhakhara, and Shou Long. Kelemvor thereby shows himself to be as egotistical as Myrkul ever dreamed of being. He's stepping on the toes of Osiris, Ubtao, Labelas, Chronepsis/Null, Urogalan, and Yurtrus at the very least, to say nothing of the archtypical racial deities who might want to get ahold of their followers. Kelemvor is a member of the Faerunian Pantheon, and the idea that he gets all the dead of Toril makes no sense whatsoever. Myrkul was also a power hungry maniac who extorted people's souls for money and the bereaved. He was an emotional and gross god who didn't learn the meaning of his station, abet he didn't do as poorly as Cyric did inside it. Actually, Myrkul had the go-to guys if you wanted your death avenged. Seriously. Check out the ol' Faiths and Avatars book... Myrkul's church sounds like a not-unreasonable bunch of guys- just a little morbid. Myrkul certainly wasn't Jergal (who, if his appearance is any indicator, is just inhuman enough to cherish order over emotion), but he certainly didn;t seem to be abusing his portfolios. Ao didn't leave him dead because he'd failed at his job, he left him dead because he'd helped Bane steal the Tablets of Fate (reason number 537 why I ignore the Avatar Trilogy IMC).
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 02:12 AM	I still disagree with the Dustmen on a few issues my self regarding death but I do point out the fact that no faction is entirely static. I love the Athar but I really wish someone would smack the theocracy of the One God they're trying to make out of the faction. I do stand corrected GothicDan, I was referring to her though. I also see "True Death" as a goal that is inherently neutral though. Manshoon, i got two words- convert or die, Telamonts assessment of the Zhentarim is right on... Weak, weak weak Manshoon: Die. *Princes kill him, lose one of their number* *one week later* Manshoon: Die *princes kill him, lose one of their number* *One week later* Manshoon: Die *princes kill him, wage horrible war against Zhenteriam, scorch the earth and lose many of their number* Manshoon: Die *One thousand Manshoons appear and attack the Shade City at once them butcher each other* Manshoon is more powerful than pretty much the vast majority of Shade and one of the greatest wizards of Faerun. He's brilliant, scheming, and also would have Mystra's backing along with Halastar his live in beau. Plus, HE ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STAY DEAD. I see Mystra would do well to induct him into the brotherhood. Kelemvor thereby shows himself to be as egotistical as Myrkul ever dreamed of being. He's stepping on the toes of Osiris, Ubtao, Labelas, Chronepsis/Null, Urogalan, and Yurtrus at the very least, to say nothing of the archtypical racial deities who might want to get ahold of their followers. Kelemvor is a member of the Faerunian Pantheon, and the idea that he gets all the dead of Toril makes no sense whatsoever. The fact remains that the Faerun pantheon is expanionistic and frankly Kelemvor has a duty to expand like every other deity there. All Faithless and False are his by Ao's decree, just like Mystra doesn't depend on the power of her worshippers. Corellon doesn't get faithless elves, ditto Moradin. It's the price of doing Business on Toril.
Cunning Linguist 10-21-04, 09:49 AM	To take Manshoon out, all you need it a Eternity of Torture spell. The body is useless, but he will never die, and therefore the clone will never awaken.
ClobberinTime 10-21-04, 10:20 AM	Aren't the clones like 17th level casters, you think that can take on a prince of Shade, have you even looked at their ECLs? Every one of them is at a minimum 28. They would work in concert, 4 level 28s against at most one level 25. How does it work that he gets to kill one each time, Unless the Shades are totally nerfed they should win easily.
Cole Deschain 10-21-04, 10:32 AM	The fact remains that the Faerun pantheon is expanionistic and frankly Kelemvor has a duty to expand like every other deity there. All Faithless and False are his by Ao's decree, just like Mystra doesn't depend on the power of her worshippers. Corellon doesn't get faithless elves, ditto Moradin. It's the price of doing Business on Toril. Not necessarily. Ao ain't the only Overpower of Abeir-Toril, and I'm sure Fate still rules the roost in Zhakara... ditto with whoever it is that calls the overarching shots in Kara-Tur. And my point remains- if Kelemvor judges all of the dead that come through his transom now, then the gods I listed don't have any reason to be there. Osiris and company might as well just pack their bags and go home. It's stupid and short-sighted- particularly considering that Kelemvor himself has been known to be stupid and short-sighted. Gving one formerly mortal god sway over all the cultures of a planet isn't even remotely logical.
GothicDan 10-21-04, 10:54 AM	I didn't even start playing/collecting FR until the Tot (2E), and I think it was horrible and dumb. Kelemvor: They are all mine! Whahaha! Sehanine: Excuse me? Kelemvor: The elvies! All mine! I'll stick them in this here wall! Sehanine: You're sticking -my- elves... The Elves that I created with my own tears... In a wall with your human worshippers because they didn't have patron deities? Kelemvor: ..... Yes. Sehanine: You do realize that the Seldarine is truly a pagan religion, correct? We do not force our children to choose merely one of us to hold above any of the others? Kelemvor: FAITHLESS! Sehanine: Right. I'll just be gathering these 'Faithless' souls up and setting them free in Arvandor now. Have a nice day. *Walks away, muttering about stupid, immature human deities who have no experience* Kelemvor: HEY! Bring those back! And I have a bone to pick with you about those Baelnorn, too! *Seldarine, being the incredibly harmonious pantheon it is, gangs up and slaps Kelemvor around to teach him a lesson or 6.*
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 11:36 AM	Not necessarily. Ao ain't the only Overpower of Abeir-Toril, and I'm sure Fate still rules the roost in Zhakara... ditto with whoever it is that calls the overarching shots in Kara-Tur. And my point remains- if Kelemvor judges all of the dead that come through his transom now, then the gods I listed don't have any reason to be there. Osiris and company might as well just pack their bags and go home. It's stupid and short-sighted- particularly considering that Kelemvor himself has been known to be stupid and short-sighted. Gving one formerly mortal god sway over all the cultures of a planet isn't even remotely logical. Given Ao banished the Zhakhara along with Kara Tur pantheon, either Fate is merely a Greater God or it is a manifestation of Ao. Ao rules all of Toril and that's that. I also agree that they should go home as I prefer a more closed sphere pantheon, I personally hope though that the pantheons will be altered to be more mult-related with Osiris and other judges of the dead SUBSERVIENT to Kelemvor. As for the clones, only a few are 17th level..."normal" Manshoon clones equal 24th level Manshoon whom again is one of the most fearsome and brilliant spellcasters in the Realms. Re: Selahaine, I think its an even Trade off GothicDan. I don't think that Kelemvor takes those who worship multiple gods equally either as Faithless, only those whom are False to their precepts (evil elves) and are looney to treat gods as trumped up mortals. Selehaine: I want those Faithless! Kelemvor: Pardon me but do you have human worshippers? Selehaine: Well...yes. Kelemvor: Well those COULD be faithless given they worship outside the pantheon. You get to keep them though because *I* say its cool to do that. Selahaine: Says who! Kelemvor: Says Ao. Selahaine: We're multispheric deities! Kelemvor: Yes, well SOME of us care about what happens on Faerun. Selahaine: We care! Kelemvor: Yeah right, that's why you claim complete sovereigty over the land and being an elder race when humans were here first and your race took the land! AWAY! Personally, the arrogance of elves in Faerun makes me glad Mystra can slap down Corellon.
Lina_Inverse 10-21-04, 12:15 PM	Kelemvor: They are all mine! Whahaha! Sehanine: Excuse me? Kelemvor: The elvies! All mine! I'll stick them in this here wall! Sehanine: You're sticking -my- elves... The Elves that I created with my own tears... In a wall with your human worshippers because they didn't have patron deities? Kelemvor: ..... Yes. Sehanine: You do realize that the Seldarine is truly a pagan religion, correct? We do not force our children to choose merely one of us to hold above any of the others? Kelemvor: FAITHLESS! Sehanine: Right. I'll just be gathering these 'Faithless' souls up and setting them free in Arvandor now. Have a nice day. *Walks away, muttering about stupid, immature human deities who have no experience* Kelemvor: HEY! Bring those back! And I have a bone to pick with you about those Baelnorn, too! *Seldarine, being the incredibly harmonious pantheon it is, gangs up and slaps Kelemvor around to teach him a lesson or 6.* AO: hi sehanine... sehanine: um hi AO:did you just go against my rules? sehanine:ummmmm AO:i think ill be returning those to there RIGHTFUL owner now
GothicDan 10-21-04, 12:36 PM	AO: hi sehanine... sehanine: um hi AO:did you just go against my rules? sehanine:ummmmm AO:i think ill be returning those to there RIGHTFUL owner now Sehanine: Actually, haha, no they won't. Ao: Yes they will. Sehanine: No they won't. We'll be leaving now. Goodbye. *Seldarine sweep all of the elves to a specially prepared plane of existence where they live happily ever after.* And that is exactly what would happen of the Faerunian deities started to exert control out of their sphere of influence. There would be a mass exodus of non-Faerunian humans and demihumans, and then there would be a nearly dead planet. Wonderful world for gaming.
ClobberinTime 10-21-04, 12:45 PM	Look, I like Manshoon too, its just the point that the Princes of Shade and Telamont were made to be the opposite of the chosen of Mystra, a balancing power if you will using the shadow weave to oppose the weave. And you know what they can actually hang with the chosen which is a big deal. Manshoon can take on Storm, sure and he has, and Alustriel, but the rest are out of his league. Now suppose you handled the Manshoon clone thing differently and they could cooperate and were spread all over Faerun, now that would give the Zhentarim a boost. And its a cool plot hook. Imagine the PCs surprise when they find out after working for a long time to tank one that there are now 5 or 6 others who are very very angry. And I think you are right about Mystra and Manshoon, in her own way the goddess really respects this wizard, and he could probably handle chosen status. Kelemvor is a much better god of the dead than Myrkul, the god of the dead needs to be LN because he must uphold the law. All of the other gods have too much of a stake in getting their own petitioners to allow anyone other than Ao to muck about with it. That being said Kelemvor might have much more support than one thinks. At the same time Cyric is odd man out, All the evil and good gods hate him. It will be open season on his followers and after they are run underground and their numbers culled he will be a lesser god. Heck even the other CE gods have it in for him....
GothicDan 10-21-04, 01:16 PM	I'd still like to hear where these "laws" are written about that the Gods of Death/the Dead are supposed to follow. If Myrkul or Jergal in his old days had broken any laws, I'm pretty sure that Ao would have taken them down.
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 01:34 PM	I'd still like to hear where these "laws" are written about that the Gods of Death/the Dead are supposed to follow. If Myrkul or Jergal in his old days had broken any laws, I'm pretty sure that Ao would have taken them down. Well its in "Waterdeep" the module as well as adventure. Basically, Myrkul was notorious for keeping the souls of the faithful of the gods for his very own. There's at least thousands of them that were retrieved after his death from the Fugue. He probably kept them on some pretext. BTW, out of curiousity in general, but does everyone see Ao as an active deity? I see him more as a "god to the gods" and he appears roughly as many times to the average god as a REAL god appears to others. In all of Toril's history I assumed that Ao has appeared like 8 or 9 times to the GODs let alone mortals. I think that makes Ao that much more cooler personally. If he was just some Sky God that ruled over them then it'd be less fun. Like Sehaine trying to whack Lolth, Ao saying "no." Or the above mentioned mass exodus business where Ao simply would make all the 'rebel' gods mortal again and then order them destroyed....which isn't much fun. Out of curiosity Gothicdan do you think Ao should have been able to banish the gods of the other pantheons worldwide? Or should have in general? Should it have just been a Faerun based punishment? In any case, I don't think that the elves would abandon Toril for those whom were faithless and false even as the human race would rapidly fill up the void left behind by the dead....in fact it might make a more interesting campaign world honestly since humanity is not by necessity bound to deal with demihuman pantheons. I also prefer the "multiplicity" idea of the universe where Mystra is part of the Celestial Bureaucracy under a different guise (all but stated in Crucible of Cyric the Mad). That way Selune and Sehaine are actually different faces of the same god....probably ditto Lathander and Corelleon, their personalities determined in part by how their worshippers choose to percieve the greatness of the god. Personally, IMC, Myrkul was the god of the dead who stole souls like you're describing Kel as doing and were I to revise it...only RECENTLY have elves been allowed to journey to the judgement of their gods rather than the fickleness of Myrkul the Corrupt. Re: Manshoon Manshoons recieved a major power boost recently is all I'm saying, I put him directly below Elminster and Khelban but equal to pretty much all the other chosen. I also think that his becoming a Chosen is fairly likely and would drastically increase Mystra's powerbase. What do you guys think? I see Manshoon as a very sincere Mystraite too. Ed described his ultimate ambition is for a Pan-Realms Magocracy that eliminates the weak, stupid, and foolish from those who study the Art but allows a permanent rulership and dissemenation of the knowledge of magic amongst those worthy to wield it. While Manshoon's ideals aren't entirely Mystran, certainly he's got a lot more respect for the art than any other wizards and his ideals aren't even that selfish. I personally think its wrong to say that Manshoon couldn't take out El in a spell duel, ditto for The Shades. It's PROBABLE he'll lose but again Manshoon IS one of the most powerful wizards in the Realms and he WILL NOT STAY DEAD. I also think that the Manshoonites are working together, Ed's word is canon and its his opinion that the REAL manshoon is actually in hiding and coordinating his three surviving clones.
BrianCritchley 10-21-04, 02:48 PM	I'd still like to hear where these "laws" are written about that the Gods of Death/the Dead are supposed to follow. If Myrkul or Jergal in his old days had broken any laws, I'm pretty sure that Ao would have taken them down. most likely? the tablets of fate. I mean these tablets are descrbed as "detailing the duties, responsiabilites and portfolios of all the gods"
GothicDan 10-21-04, 02:58 PM	most likely? the tablets of fate. I mean these tablets are descrbed as "detailing the duties, responsiabilites and portfolios of all the gods" Which was another silly ToT change, but I digress. And note that Ao never put Myrkul or Jergal on trial like Cyric, so obviously they didn't break any laws written on the tablets - providing they were even around before the ToT.
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 03:42 PM	Which was another silly ToT change, but I digress. And note that Ao never put Myrkul or Jergal on trial like Cyric, so obviously they didn't break any laws written on the tablets - providing they were even around before the ToT. The Pantheon is a direct democracy, Ao was summoned when Cyric murdered a god and said roughly "this isn't worth my time." Tyr and everyone were the people that tried the gods, not Ao. As for Myrkul abusing his position, every god was judged for the ToT, the Tablets were an excuse as Ao makes clear in the module. They ignored their duties, worshippers, and more or less just screwed around.
GothicDan 10-21-04, 03:50 PM	The Pantheon is a direct democracy, Ao was summoned when Cyric murdered a god and said roughly "this isn't worth my time." Tyr and everyone were the people that tried the gods, not Ao. And they never put Myrkul on trial...
BrianCritchley 10-21-04, 03:52 PM	nor did they when cyric mearly was doing evil stuff. in fact the crime cyric was charged with.. was innocence. not only is an evil deity expected to do evil. it's their job. cyric was put on trial effectivly because "while he's supposed to be evil, his insanity means he's not evil. just insane"
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 03:56 PM	I *WOULD* believe they would have put Myrkul on Trial if they could have. The soul stealing thing is pretty danged reprehensible after all, not to mention a violation of his porfolio. However Myrkul was allied with Bane and Bhaal, both greater gods plus Mask, Loviathar, and Talona all paid homage to Bhaal whom paid homage to Myrkul. It was an evil pantheon to itself and to strike at one meant to strike at all. Thus Myrkul did what he pleased, I like the idea truly of Murky being the most corrupt and debasing of his station gods. It fits with his role as mastermind of the Tablet Theft.
GothicDan 10-21-04, 06:36 PM	However Myrkul was allied with Bane and Bhaal, both greater gods plus Mask, Loviathar, and Talona all paid homage to Bhaal whom paid homage to Myrkul. It was an evil pantheon to itself and to strike at one meant to strike at all. Thus Myrkul did what he pleased, I like the idea truly of Murky being the most corrupt and debasing of his station gods. It fits with his role as mastermind of the Tablet Theft. That listing of divine politics is very.. skewed. Myrkul and Bane were the only two Greater Gods. They were allied. Bhaal was an Intermediate Deity who served Bane, and Loviatar, Malar, and Talona only were Lesser Gods that served Bhaal. So, we have 2 Greater Gods, 1 Intermediate God, and 3 Lesser Gods allied. Which F'ing rocks, I might say, but moving on. That against Chauntea, Lathander, Sune, Mystra, Tyr, Torm, Mielikki, Silvanus, Illmater... Yeah, as powerful as the Dark Triad and their lackeys were, a coalition of the other gods of Faerun could have put him on trial if they really wanted to.
WizO_BigSister 10-21-04, 08:10 PM	The Gnome and Halfling pantheons race around with an invisible net to gather up all their FR souls before anyone else can get their grubby mitts on them ... and then very sneakily hide them all! Being small has its advantages ;)
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 08:20 PM	Bhaal was an Intermediate Deity who served Bane, and Loviatar, Malar, and Talona only were Lesser Gods that served Bhaal. I only have my memories of the Greybox to tell me this but I believe Bhaal was actually a greater god of Death to start with. I don't quite know why it would have this effect but I believe he was only downgraded to the status of Intermediate power after King Tristan destroyed his avatar (that was the rationale at least) Noted though.
Cole Deschain 10-21-04, 08:59 PM	Given Ao banished the Zhakhara along with Kara Tur pantheon, either Fate is merely a Greater God or it is a manifestation of Ao. And? Did Mr. Jehovah-Ripoff banish the Maztican deities? Did he banish the gods of Kara-Tur? Until somebody comes along and says "Yes, canonically he did," I'll continue to maintain that Ao doesn't run all of Toril. And if it does become canon, I'll do what I've done for quite some time now- Ignore it. I'm still hacked that Serpent Kingdoms made Kossuth, one of the Elemental Gods (and an inhabitant of the Inner, not Outer planes under 2E cosmology) a subject of the ToT. I would also point out that Kelemvor getting the job he's described as having is very, very recent, since Artus Cimber's Faerunian buddy, a worshipper of Mystra, was subject to Ubtao's judgement after he died in Chult. Ao gave Kelemvor a stupidly-broadened power base as far as canon is concerned. As I said before, I ignore it utterly. Ao rules all of Toril and that's that. I also agree that they should go home as I prefer a more closed sphere pantheon, I personally hope though that the pantheons will be altered to be more mult-related with Osiris and other judges of the dead SUBSERVIENT to Kelemvor. The hubris inherent in making all other gods secondary to the Faerunian Pantheon would be the one thing to drive me away from the Realms for good. The fun of the Realms, for me at least, is that it doesn't have a single, monlithic pantheon like Birthright or Dragonlance (both good settings, but also monocultural in theior own ways). I don't buy a Mulhorandi worshipping Tempus. I might buy him worshipping Tempus under an alias as Anhur, but I still say that'd call for a different avatar, different priesthood, and different "feel," so the bookkeeping would be just as complicated. The Realms are home to many diverse cultures, with quite naturally different approaches to religion. A "unified" pantheon such as you describe would take away the fun of going to, say, Mezro, and finding that nobody takes your deity very seriously. The Maztica setting is fun in part because of the clash between the Faerunian interloper and the native gods of the setting (with Lolth tossing a minor hissy fit somewhere towards the end of the second novel, just to further complicate things). A Toril-wide "divine cleanup" would render storylines such as this trite and silly. "Oooo, look, it's an aspect of Cyric! Okay troops, you know the drill- trust no one, cast detect evil left and right, and prepare for priestly magic," as opposed to, "Who the hell are these people? What in Helm's name is that hideous idol?" Personally, the arrogance of elves in Faerun makes me glad Mystra can slap down Corellon. Personally, the arrogance of the Faerunian deities makes me glad that there's other pantheons to mess around with.
BrianCritchley 10-21-04, 09:08 PM	whats arogant about Ao handing out a CENTRALIZED job to Kelemvor, odds are all the other pantheons have an "office" in the fuge plane and Kel routinly checks various cultural rules with em etc, but all in all Kel's job is simply to process people via the UNIVERSAL RULES AO SET DOWN. Ao is the FINAL power on Faerun, all his job is to do is to set the rules. and the rules have a purpose, the whole purpose of the faithles and the false is tied in with the newer rule that gods get their power from their worshippers. the end effect is that god HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THEIR PEOPLE IF THEY WANT EM IN THE AFTERLIFE. and elf deity can't just sit on his ass and let the elves decide they don't belive, or to be hipocrits, the elf deites must be active, etc
Lina_Inverse 10-21-04, 09:12 PM	Sehanine: Actually, haha, no they won't. Ao: Yes they will. Sehanine: No they won't. We'll be leaving now. Goodbye. *Seldarine sweep all of the elves to a specially prepared plane of existence where they live happily ever after.* And that is exactly what would happen of the Faerunian deities started to exert control out of their sphere of influence. There would be a mass exodus of non-Faerunian humans and demihumans, and then there would be a nearly dead planet. Wonderful world for gaming. where do the elven deitys go?canon states quite plainly that there is only toril in the faerun cosmolgy and that AO ovegod of TORIL.that means all its little contents in there oh so not clever way of pigeon holeing non-europeon societys into it. ofcourse you can house rule but canon on these boards(barring a what are your house rules thread) is whats importent.
Kuje31 10-21-04, 09:21 PM	I just want to point out that according to the Player's Guide AO oversees ALL Astral's to and from Toril. This includes Kara-Tur's, Maztica's, Faerun's, and Zakhara's. SO we can infur from that that AO rules over ALL the pantheons of FR's Prime Material.
Cole Deschain 10-21-04, 09:23 PM	whats arogant about Ao handing out a CENTRALIZED job to Kelemvor, odds are all the other pantheons have an "office" in the fuge plane and Kel routinly checks various cultural rules with em etc, but all in all Kel's job is simply to process people via the UNIVERSAL RULES AO SET DOWN. Said rules contradicting several other intrinsic rules that make other pantheons tick. With Kelemvor judging all of the dead of Toril. Ao's basically saying "Faerun has the True Religion, all the rest of you can go to hell." So why even have 'em? Why go to the pretense of having multiple cultures and multiple pantheons if you're going to hamstring all but one? Ao is the FINAL power on Faerun, all his job is to do is to set the rules. and the rules have a purpose, the whole purpose of the faithles and the false is tied in with the newer rule that gods get their power from their worshippers. Except for Mystra, for one. The end effect is that god HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THEIR PEOPLE IF THEY WANT EM IN THE AFTERLIFE. Even if said pantheons have their own rules for how they punish their faithless and false (Ubtao, the Mulhorandi pantheon), or if, like the Elves, they don't give a tinker's damn if their people take a patron or not. an elf deity can't just sit on his ass and let the elves decide they don't belive, or to be hipocrits, the elf deites must be active, etc Why? It defeats their actual ethos. It's not being lazy, they're very active. They just aren't the egomaniacs most human deities are.
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 09:26 PM	And? Did Mr. Jehovah-Ripoff banish the Maztican deities? Did he banish the gods of Kara-Tur? Until somebody comes along and says "Yes, canonically he did," I'll continue to maintain that Ao doesn't run all of Toril. And if it does become canon, I'll do what I've done for quite some time now- Ignore it. I'm still hacked that Serpent Kingdoms made Kossuth, one of the Elemental Gods (and an inhabitant of the Inner, not Outer planes under 2E cosmology) a subject of the ToT. Kara Tur's supplements I believe state that in fact the gods dissapeared during the Time of Troubles year so we can assume that they were in fact banished during this time. I like the fact that Ao is THE Overpower of Toril and should he choose to destroy all the gods of Faerun then they don't have time to breathe before they are annihilated. I would also point out that Kelemvor getting the job he's described as having is very, very recent, since Artus Cimber's Faerunian buddy, a worshipper of Mystra, was subject to Ubtao's judgement after he died in Chult. That is in fact true. I just want to personally see that the deities finally display abilities that are "divine" I suppose. Kelemvor has almost no job if you restrict him from Judging the worthiness of souls, which is what he SHOULD do. The Faithless and False personally should only go to him of the faerun pantheon I'm willing to accept but I rather like the idea that each deities plane has its own hells as well. But he NEEDS something and I'm annoyed they aren't giving him as much. Ao gave Kelemvor a stupidly-broadened power base as far as canon is concerned. As I said before, I ignore it utterly. I admit, Ed agrees with you. Mystra doesn't have the Weave in his original vision, she's just god of magic (Lurue is the Weave and she's so alien that there's no problem with it). Corellon is her counterpart not subject as god of magic. The fun of the Realms, for me at least, is that it doesn't have a single, monlithic pantheon like Birthright or Dragonlance (both good settings, but also monocultural in theior own ways). I don't buy a Mulhorandi worshipping Tempus. I might buy him worshipping Tempus under an alias as Anhur, but I still say that'd call for a different avatar, different priesthood, and different "feel," so the bookkeeping would be just as complicated. I agree personally that its good to have different god feels for different cultures but I do think personally that it somewhat undervalues the pantheon that way. I didn't much care for the racial pantheon's inclusion in the first place honestly and question whether it was Ed's original vision since his world was before they were largely defined. The Realms are home to many diverse cultures, with quite naturally different approaches to religion. A "unified" pantheon such as you describe would take away the fun of going to, say, Mezro, and finding that nobody takes your deity very seriously Don't necessarily steoretype me my friend. In my campaigns I love how the players continue to mortally offend the Moonshae people. "Okay so these Chauntean worshippers..." "EARTHMOTHER!" "Yeah right, Chauntaeans." "EARTHMOTHER!" I also had Moander killed in Faerun but his guise in Wa is still alive and now seriously cheesed off at Finder Wyvernspur. I even have Amaulthor alive even though Lathander is his guise now and his enemy even. The Maztica setting is fun in part because of the clash between the Faerunian interloper and the native gods of the setting (with Lolth tossing a minor hissy fit somewhere towards the end of the second novel, just to further complicate things). A Toril-wide "divine cleanup" would render storylines such as this trite and silly. "Oooo, look, it's an aspect of Cyric! Okay troops, you know the drill- trust no one, cast detect evil left and right, and prepare for priestly magic," as opposed to, "Who the hell are these people? What in Helm's name is that hideous idol?" I'm not against new gods entirely, I do think though that efforts should have made to make the gods not just restricted to Faerun though. It makes the world's history less interesting that the great and glorious conflict of Selune vs. Shar is restricted only to one area. I was actually angered when someone on these boards called their conflict a Myth. It undervalues the gods perosnally that all these interlopers exist but never once even just a FEW in the pantheon. I can think of no reason for new Zhakara gods since the original book makes no mention that there are new gods, only that they worship them differently. Personally, the arrogance of the Faerunian deities makes me glad that there's other pantheons to mess around with. You haven't met my players. Maztica is a whole continent of heathens to annihilate to them from Huzticopla (Lathander) to Tezaticopla (Shar) Said rules contradicting several other intrinsic rules that make other pantheons tick. With Kelemvor judging all of the dead of Toril. Ao's basically saying "Faerun has the True Religion, all the rest of you can go to hell." So why even have 'em? Why go to the pretense of having multiple cultures and multiple pantheons if you're going to hamstring all but one? I think what we have here is largely a conflict of vision. TSR stuck Maztica, Kara-Tur, and Zhakara all in Faerun. The original vision had the gods ruling over their own territories but all of them very different from one another. Selune and Shar WOULD exist in another land under different guises but then again Ubatao might or other gods yet still....however the pantheon was unnecessarily widened for new lands outside of Ed's vision.
GothicDan 10-21-04, 09:45 PM	where do the elven deitys go?canon states quite plainly that there is only toril in the faerun cosmolgy and that AO ovegod of TORIL.that means all its little contents in there oh so not clever way of pigeon holeing non-europeon societys into it. ofcourse you can house rule but canon on these boards(barring a what are your house rules thread) is whats importent. They could simply go out of Toril's multiverse altogether.
Charles Phipps 10-21-04, 09:59 PM	They could simply go out of Toril's multiverse altogether. I'd actually like some clarification if Toril is actually the only inhabited PLANET in the Multiverse of Toril. Its always been my assumption that the Great Wheel (which I think inferior to the Tree) and Spelljammer are gone with Athas, Dragonlance, etc now their own universes But like Dragonlance, FR has plenty of alien worlds out there. Dragonbait's homeworld, Fairy, etc. It's just that they're not any of the existing settings. (I wonder if Ao rules there, unlikely since he's only one of many according to Avatar Trilogy)
Kuje31 10-21-04, 10:25 PM	I'd actually like some clarification if Toril is actually the only inhabited PLANET in the Multiverse of Toril. Its always been my assumption that the Great Wheel (which I think inferior to the Tree) and Spelljammer are gone with Athas, Dragonlance, etc now their own universes But like Dragonlance, FR has plenty of alien worlds out there. Dragonbait's homeworld, Fairy, etc. It's just that they're not any of the existing settings. (I wonder if Ao rules there, unlikely since he's only one of many according to Avatar Trilogy) I guess you missed the Spelljamming thread from about a week ago. SIGH! NO TORIL IS NOT the only inhabited planet in FR's Prime Material! And you can still GET TO the other Prime Material's via the Shadow Weave, Sigil (oh wait some of you think Rich is wrong about that bit of text!!), and the Staircase! (Again he's probably wrong on that also!) :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 10:29 AM	Interesting thoughts all, in any case I would like to continue this line of thought of "Ed's Forgotten Realms" vs. "WotC's forrgotten Realms" and possibly open up some other discussion. The Time of Troubles should never have happened- At least, not in the way it did. I am a fan of Kelemvor, as stated, but even I am aware that FR apparently had its fan base hurt by the Time of Troubles. Frankly, I'm still rather surprised about it since I'm not sure really what offended people from that particular time period so much. I still find it the coolest of campaign concepts, the chance to interact with one's gods directly and almost always use it as my opening campaign. I would have personally preferred only one god of the Dark Three being taken down though....probably Myrkul or perhaps some event leading to his shifting alignment. Finder shouldn't have become a God- Personally, I rather like Nameless but if you are going to give a person godhood then at least give him godhood over something not covered already by three or four other gods. It seems sometimes that people treated FR as the land of ten thousand gods and never really assembled a complete list of them til Legends and Lore. Either that or at least make him patron god of the Wyvernspurs or something or actively undercutting Milil (I hate Milil).
ClobberinTime 10-22-04, 10:43 AM	The ToTs got rid of Bane, and he is just such a great bad guy, and then ther was all this mess with Xvim, Bhaal, etc... I play things earlier like around 1358 or so, cause I like to let my characters in on the elven retreat in cormanthyr on the ground floor, but I place the time of troubles in the not to past past like 1328, some people remember it and talk about it but what happened is still pretty mysterious to them. Its like a natural disaster. Look I don't have any crystal ball to see into Eds mind and I don't care to, if you like Myrkul and it makes mores sense to use him then do it. This whole thing about Ao is just a complete non-starter, Ao should never have anything to do with your PCs ever. There are probably 20 mortals on all of faerun who even know that there is this world spirit keeping watch over the prime period, so when your players get to Knowledge(the planes)-35, then you can worry about what to tell them about Ao. Personally I don't even see Ao as a god, its more of the sentient embodyment of the prime material and astral planes, which most of the time isn't self aware unless things have gone wrong. Its like a manifestation of will that happens occasionally.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 10:59 AM	I didn't even get my hands on FR stuff until the 2E boxed set (post-ToT) came out, and from what I've heard and read, I would prefer the Grey Box better. Mostly because of the divine politics. Cyrc vs. Dark Three: NO! Good Mystra: NO! Kelemvor vs. Myrkul: NO! Ao: NO!
ClobberinTime 10-22-04, 11:45 AM	so I like some of both Cyric- No way, is a serious flavor killer for the gods of fury- should be a lesser deity at best, or be Loviatar or somesuch Good Mystra- No way also, how could the rest of the pantheon allow magic to stay in the hands of someone so partisan. A gods war would result, and thats whats going to happen. Kelmvor vs. Myrkul, Yes Yes Yes for Kelemvor, but not as a risen human he is just there fulfilling his duty. I don't like Myrkul for the same reasons I don't like a good Mystra, the Gods that control things that everyone else needs and uses that are structural to the way things work (like sending petitioners to the right place) must be neutral, or LN, if they are not it is an aberration that cannot long be tolerated.... Ao- Ignore him altogether, doesn't ever have anything to do with the puny humans anyways, or rather absolutely Shouldn't
GothicDan 10-22-04, 12:06 PM	the Gods that control things that everyone else needs and uses that are structural to the way things work (like sending petitioners to the right place) must be neutral, or LN, if they are not it is an aberration that cannot long be tolerated.... That's an interesting statement. What do you define as something "everyone else needs and uses that are structural to the way things work"? Like... Agriculture? (Chauntea, NG) Growth/those who live where it is Springtime? (Lathander, NG) Those who suffer from storms? (Talos, CE) I really would like to see that line of thought extended. :)
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 12:13 PM	AO- is a character I rather like as the living spirit of the Prime Material Plane of existence and I actually describe him as such in my games. "The God of the Gods" is mysterious and aloof TO THEM. I actually make it so that Ao actually rules over not only Toril but every other inhabited world in their plane of existence. He is the "Lord of the Great Forrest." Some rules I incorporate in regards to Ao can be summarized as... 1. Ao will never interact with human beings unless they are destined to be gods or Chosen EVER...PERIOD. Any reports are either Tyr or Cyric taking his form. 2. Ao must possess a deity as an avatar to appear to Chosen since his avatars ARE greater deities. If he appeared in the mortal world with his own avatar, the mortal world would be permanently reshaped 3. Ao's motivations are unclear and he is beyond alignment 4. Ao is omniscient and omnipotent 5. Ao fills the role of Brahma and all power flows from him, all things ARE him but in no way shape or form does he arbitrate the deities 6. Ao acts divinely through his Chosen, Mystra and High Priest...Tyr 7. All the gods are required to summon him in unanimous agreement Kelemvor- I agree that Kelemvor shouldn't have probably been a risen human. I'd personally like some retconning in the future that Kelemvor is actually a creation of Jergals. His current origin sucks but it'd be interesting if all of Kelemvor's life was actually a preperation by Jergal for him to recieve his power. It'd also make him that much cooler. Cyric- The God of Murder makes a much better god of assassins than Bhaal ever did, since Bhaal was supposed to be death but came off as evil...again something Kelemvor does much better. Cyric as the Lex Luthor of the Realms though hurts since while he's wonderful as god of murder and madness....strife we need to see him sew ELSEWHERE along with more use of lies and illusion. Otherwise, Mask was a better intriguer and politican god. Dag Zoreth and the original books paint a fairly decent god under them, he should be Neutral evil though. A neutral evil god of Assassins, intrigue, illusions, and lies would be awesome for LE clerics. Strife, his Chaotic Evil alignment, and Murder though make him more the god of loonies. Mystra- Here's what I see, Mystra has ALWAYS been Neutral Good. All the books reinforce ed's love of benevolent Mystra. The Weave should belong to Lurue though and she should probably either gain some new porfolios (space/time, destiny, and hope seem like good stuff) or lose the GG status. Have her promote responsible use of magic etc. But make blatantly evil wizards serve BANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEE, shar, and Cyric. This would require something that will make me look like a hypocrtie though.... Remove the Divine Centricism- I admit, I like the smaller pantheon and want the gods elsewhere but I'm willing to tolerate racial deities so long as its all documented and they're all included (i.e. don't include Null if you're not going to include Bahamut) in a supplement. They should have just foregone divine stats and made Faiths and Avatars include all FR gods. Also how other gods have intruded onto their lands since I just don't want "static bubbles" DO however give gods their necessary due like making Kelemvor judge of the dead's destination and more rather than just holder of Faithless and False of all people's then or at least address the issue. Let me show you where my problem begins... THAY- Thay is a magocracy. Thay's gods are Bane and Kossuth though (and probably Cyric). This makes no sense whatsoever as a magocracy. If Mystra really ever WAS the god of magic in general rather than non-exploitive magic then their gods should be Azuth, Mystra, and THEN maybe Bane and Cyric. That's what I think
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 12:23 PM	That's an interesting statement. What do you define as something "everyone else needs and uses that are structural to the way things work"? Like... Agriculture? (Chauntea, NG) Growth/those who live where it is Springtime? (Lathander, NG) Those who suffer from storms? (Talos, CE) I really would like to see that line of thought extended. :) It's an old thought actually. It's the idea of gods as embodiments of concepts vs. gods as individual people who are patrons of specific concepts. It's been hotly contested a long time even at our table. The basic consensus is this though.... The Gods of Fury, all CN Kelemvor/Myrkul/Jergal, Bhaal: N, LN, N, CN Tempus: N (War plays no favorites) Chaunteau can be good as god of agriculture, EARTHMOTHER...however would be neutral and Earthmother is the guise in which she'd be the embodiment of Toril Bane would still be evil though because he's the God of Tyranny, Tyr EMBODIES justice so therefore he's lawful good, Cyric is the God of Murder and strife so he's CE, Ditto Garagos for being god of bloodlust and rapine Some porfolios would be moved around though as Miekkli, Lathander, Shar, and Selune embody both natural aspects as well as concepts (Jergal did too as God of Netheril). Most likely new gods would have to be created or porfolios switched around with folk like Velsharoon benefitting the most as he is no longer death but all things related to violation of the dead and control However Azuth and Mystra along with Oghma would also be neutral save promotion of her porfolio. In this model the gods of good would move to one side, the gods of evil to another, and the gods of nature or concepts that can be used for good or evil would sit square in the center.
Cunning Linguist 10-22-04, 12:23 PM	THAY- Thay is a magocracy. Thay's gods are Bane and Kossuth though (and probably Cyric). This makes no sense whatsoever as a magocracy. If Mystra really ever WAS the god of magic in general rather than non-exploitive magic then their gods should be Azuth, Mystra, and THEN maybe Bane and Cyric Kossuth is worshiped by the free people of Thay, and Bane is for the noble class. The Red Wizards give only lip service (and you don't need a temple to give lip service) to whatever god they feel like, but they only that so they don't need to go to the wall when they die. Once they cross over to undeath I think they stop all worship.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 12:32 PM	I prefer deities to be much less static. Thus, I think no god "should" be any alignment specifically, because if you lock them into alignments specific to their actual portfolios, then you have puppets - not gods. If you want a world where there's little to no divine influence, that's great. If you want one more in which the Gods play an active role (such as FR), then it's horrible. Reality is shaped by belief. Everything is ultimately undefinable/unaligned (not neutral) until consciousness gets ahold of it, so everything has the potential to be every alignment. Thus, I could see a CG god of death (Sehanine), a NE one (Myrkul), a LE one (Jergal), and a LN one (Kelemvor). Which one I -prefer- is a totally different story.
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 12:38 PM	I prefer deities to be much less static. Thus, I think no god "should" be any alignment specifically, because if you lock them into alignments specific to their actual portfolios, then you have puppets - not gods. If you want a world where there's little to no divine influence, that's great. If you want one more in which the Gods play an active role (such as FR), then it's horrible. Reality is shaped by belief. Everything is ultimately undefinable/unaligned (not neutral) until consciousness gets ahold of it, so everything has the potential to be every alignment. Thus, I could see a CG god of death (Sehanine), a NE one (Myrkul), a LE one (Jergal), and a LN one (Kelemvor). Which one I -prefer- is a totally different story. The "Word Holders" (i.e. Gods) in In Nomine by Steve Jackson games are fanatically paranoid about how their words are percieved on the planet Earth since the slightest change can have long reaching/lasting checks on their power. Its relevant because I think it was based on D&D's system for the gods. For an example; The Archangel/Goddess of Flowers is sweet, bubbleheaded, pacifistic, and hippie with tolerance/slight druggie bent thanks to how flowers are viewed in the world. Curious plots have been undertaken on numerous occasions to transform people's perceptions of flowers into something different...say...symbols of militancy and oppression (War of the Rose?) Were it to have had an effect either the goddess would have had to ABANDON her porfolio, lose her divine ranks accordingly as she only absorbed the essence of people who like flowers as symbols of peace, or absorb the essence and thus become an entirely different god. Direct worship had the same effect. If Tyr accepted the worship of people who considered him the god of bezerk fury, he'd have to adjust his alignment or not be able to take the power.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 12:51 PM	Direct worship had the same effect. If Tyr accepted the worship of people who considered him the god of bezerk fury, he'd have to adjust his alignment or not be able to take the power. So he wouldn't take the power, or gains aspects of both and becomes a N deity with two different aspects... As Tyche was before she split into Tymora and Beshaba. Mythology is full of deities who have more than one "aspect/face," often with very different alignments/portfolios/moods associated with one to the next.
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 12:59 PM	So he wouldn't take the power, or gains aspects of both and becomes a N deity with two different aspects... As Tyche was before she split into Tymora and Beshaba. Mythology is full of deities who have more than one "aspect/face," often with very different alignments/portfolios/moods associated with one to the next. It's actually how I handle Kelemvor to a certain extent and all deities. Talos's CN church is quite different from his CE church. I even go one step further and address the "multiplicity of being" I mentioned earlier in my campaigns. Deities are so vast and infinitely incomprehensible that the "aspects" that mortals create of their being are in fact fairly false to the deity themselves and limited beings that are even weaker than avatars. In my "Dm's notes" (players don't know this-unless they believe it culturally like those characters from Wa/Shou Long/etc that visit) All gods are essentially Ao actually. Just different aspects of him A few steps downwards though...Selune, Sehaine/Sune, Hanelli, Ishtar, Moriggon/Lathander,Amaulthor,Huzitiopla are the most powerful of deities with their greater soul rarely letting them know they exist in other realms and in other faces You may think the idea of Tempus in our world is ridiculous until you note he goes by Thor, Raiden, and a few other names here. I like this idea because it makes the gods work on a global scale even if they themselves are influenced by cultural concept. Its even possible for them to work against each other as Chaunteau and the Earthmother illustrate, both competing for the lion's share of their deities' mindset for the realization of her will on Toril.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 01:04 PM	I think that's taking it too far. It's being incredibly... Well, Wiccan (not to be offensive to anyone) about it, in lumping together all of the pagan deities as merely aspects of a larger crystal so to speak. Within a culture, despite the fact that a deity may have had numerous aspects, it was STILL worshipped as a single god, overall, and that's how I would look at Tyr, if such a thing happened. Though he would be stepping all over the toes of Tyr (Garagos, maybe), and if he DID decide to accept the worship, he would probably have to battle one of the two for it.
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 01:07 PM	I think that's taking it too far. It's being incredibly... Well, Wiccan (not to be offensive to anyone) about it, in lumping together all of the pagan deities as merely aspects of a larger crystal so to speak. Within a culture, despite the fact that a deity may have had numerous aspects, it was STILL worshipped as a single god, overall, and that's how I would look at Tyr, if such a thing happened. Though he would be stepping all over the toes of Tyr (Garagos, maybe), and if he DID decide to accept the worship, he would probably have to battle one of the two for it. It's not offensive if fact and I was thinking Hinduism actually and to a lesser extent, Buddhism actually where all the Bodhivistas are in fact actually fragments of the greater Buddah spirit. I do note that my ideas aren't canon and aren't entirely that great for a competing pantheon. Different aspects though are certainly enough I think for both realism as well as competition. I agree with your statement though GD. If anything, its probably the only reason I think deities would publish the faithless and false in the fact that they'd prefer not to lose power along with also not split their essence....whether that's Kel's job or the job of their clergy is anyone's guess. (In my games the Inqusitors are meant to persecute only heretics, in Church doctrine of course...anyone who has fallen from Tyr's grace is a heretic :-))
ClobberinTime 10-22-04, 01:34 PM	So my previous point was this, as applies to Chantea- Does she maintain the natural world or is she the goddess of good harvests. If she is the first one then I would say she would have to be neutral, If it is the second then she could be NG. The two arent the same thing. Also in the realms with millions of gods whats the point of having gods have differing aspects. Like Earthmother and Harvestmaster. Maybe you are right and she is both, and so I guess Mystra could be the same thing. Gods can wear different hats at different times. For me personnaly I think Sylvannus should be the maintainer and Chantea should be the harvest. Mystra maintains the weave and cant be capricious about who uses it, in other words she can't cut off people from it just for being evil. at the same time she wants-desires that if be used for good and so encourages it. Really now we have two goddesses of magic Shar and Mystra, I see a faerun of the future where evil casters use the shadow weave exclusively and good ones use the weave and neutrals can use whichever they like, then Mystra makes sense at NG, and Shar at NE, neither side would have the upper hand, and Mystra becomes what she really has always been the goddess of good magic (kind of like the good witch of the east). This kind of detente appeals to me Now the Fury gods for instance are all anthropomorphised versions of the destructive power of nature. Talos doesn't maintain the ability of Faerun to have storms, he uses them to level cities etc... Cyric is basically a Loki based character, he is a god of man and men. Representing their baser instincts. Bhaal definitely needs to be resurrected and have murder. Then Cyric is the lord of lies and human deceit, which makes sense as a lesser power. Also I like the Realms purely and unabashedly Pagan, making everybody aspects of something is a nice thing to believe in real life, but there is no reason to import it into a fantasy world. And Wicca is really based on the Celts who were only partially polytheistic, not say the Greeks who were unabashedly so.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 02:04 PM	Actually, Wicca is more based on the writings of Gerald Gardner and the Order of the Golden Dawn, minus the Enochian matrices and the Crowley-ian influences. Pretty far removed from the Celts, actually, who believed in 9 'elements' among other things.. But that's going too far into RL stuff, so... I think that the lord of death/the dead could technically be any alignment - because a force is not neutral. An alignment implies sentience, and a force is not sentient, at least not in this case. The Negative Energy Plane merely... Is. If you HAD to tag it with an alignment, it would be neutral, but it doesn't have any preferences for how its used, good or evil, law or chaos, and that's why I think that the holder of the position could be any alignment. The question is, which alignment would benefit the campaign setting more? Taking a Greater God of Evil - one of the few more competant ones, who didn't act overly destructive and get himself whooped every other day - and switching him to a Greater God of neutrality with good tendencies is a mistake in a pantheon that is already weak in the areas of evil (Post-ToT). So, that's why I want Myrkul to be the deity of death/the dead. Or Jergal (old school, perferably, but newer would be better than Kelemvor). And to make Kelemvor a demipower of tomb guardians and the sanctity of death, serving Jergal, and through Jergal, Myrkul.
Hackmaster+12 10-22-04, 02:52 PM	THE NORTH: The entire Silver Marches gets railroaded by the rise of the Orcs, who have brokered evil alliances with many of the other humanoid races (goblins etc.) and have reached an agreement with the Shades. DAEMONFEY: Become the new drow, start popping up everywhere, capturing whole towns, embarking on genocide sending traditional elves to the brink of extinction. Evil to the core. DROW: Take a major back seat. Surface drow become unheard of. All of their efforts are concentrated on holding what little territory they have in the underdark, battlling with the silence of Lloth. WATERDEEP: With the fighting going on nearby decides to lock down it's doors and cuts off contact with the outside world. Khelben begins rule with an iron fist in order to keep his city (and the people within) safe. ZHENTARIM: Become THE major power in their neck of the woods, a sort of Al Capone crime syndicate, by striking a deal with several other players like the Red Wizards and churches of several evil dieties. The organization itself undergoes a shakeup and is comprised of followers of Bane, Cyric, Mask, Shar etc. The network becomes more important than the dieties and petty interfaith rivalries are pushed to the background where Zhent business is concerned. RED WIZARDS: Strike a deal with Black Network allowing Thayan enclaves to sprout up in more places and sell their wares, but the Zhents are given control over other types of trade. Thayans make lots of cash and mount a major offensive against the forces of the Simbul. MYSTRA: Mystra denies access to the weave for all Red Wizards in an attempt to protect the Simbul. Not stopping there, Mystra decides to deny all evil spellcasters access to the weave. SHAR: Gladly accepts new followers and grants access to Shadow weave to any who wish it. Mystra is greatly weakened by this and Shar launches an all out war. CYRIC: Plots against both Mystra and Shar by pretending to aid Shar in her battle against Mystra. In the confrontation, Shar unknowingly gives the shadow weave to Mystra. This weakens Shar, putting Cyric in a more dominant position amongst evil deities. The involuntary incorporation of the shadow weave has a profound effect on Mystra, shifting her to true neutrality, caring only for the preservation of magic in all forms and loosening up on the whole good/evil spectrum. In the end the Simbul is killed and the Thayans prevail. Mystra adopts a new Chosen amongst the Red Wizards to balance her good-aligned chosen. HARPERS: Become more overzealous daily. Harpers begin interfering in the lives of commonfolk of the realms more and more "putting their nose where it don't belong" according to many. In one Harper controled town, prohibition is even attempted. The Black Network takes advantage of many situations like these and plays on the sympathies of the people. Corruption from within further cripples the Harpers and a huge rift develops in the organization, which for some time, becomes effectively a non-player, focusing all of it's efforts on this internal power struggle. To quote a Forgotten Realms add from Dragon Magazine a while ago... "Evil is everywhere!" Who will set things right? Who will strike back against these dark forces? Do your PCs have what it takes? Perhaps your band of heroes will be the new Harpers...
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 03:16 PM	Actually, Gothic dan... I believe the appeal is actually questioning whether you want a deity whom is going to be a patron of your characters or whether you want a deity as an antagonist. As antagonists, the Forgotten Realms are filled with them. Deities have the advantage of the fact you will never, ever, remotely suceed in dealing with them on a level that you can defeat them. Deities as patrons though mean that most players, presumed good, will require a variety of alignments. Kelemvor represents in large part the sanctity of death and the huge amounts of nasty numbers of undead in the Realms gives them a fairly large and huge following. Allow me to explain, let's say I want to play Dark Fantasy in Raven-Realms. My characters (PCs) are a survivor of an attack of the Undead who hates them with a passion, a Abraham Van Helsing scholar of the 'Dark Side', and an elf whom has forsaken the Seldarine because of his mate becoming a creature of the undead and will not rest until every last one of them is destroyed. This is...BTW...three characters from three different campaigns I run. Under Old FR without Kelemvor the most likely gods to support this group would be Lathander, Oghma, and Shelvaresh.... Shel MIGHt work but frankly all three of them are better patronized by Kelemvor, people who WORSHIP death. Given the number of times Hebert West, the Re-animator has shown up in my games...Kelemvor is a god send largely. Also, Kelemvor works in my games because now I have a "Bogus Journey" death figure. Kelemvor will let you fight for your continued right to live and now can arbitrate ressurections so that worthy beings CAN be ressurected. Also he might, like Hades, be moved to pity to allow you to rescue your wife. Myrkul has the "malignant" death feel and thus can't be imagined to do anything but laugh at you when you come seeking a lost comrade. Frankly, I hate "bright" gods of healing too. Knowing real doctors, they can pretty damn depressed and morbid...I prefer personally using those types as priests of Kelemvor too. "Delaying the inevitable" so to speak. I would like some nicer views on SOME types of undead but in general, when I need Van Helsing...I turn to Kel.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 03:58 PM	Charles, I'm not sure exactly what you meant by "Actually.." I believe the appeal is actually questioning whether you want a deity whom is going to be a patron of your characters or whether you want a deity as an antagonist. I was not referring to the "appeal" of any deity. I am sure that your views of Kelemvor work wonderfully in your personal game, but I was not referring to personal experiences I have had, or anyone else has had. I was viewing the situation from more of an editorial point of view. Your consideration of whether or not a character wants to choose a patron deity as their own or not is only a tiny fragment in a much larger puzzle. I want culture, interesting deities at odds with each other, a CERTAIN balance of power (not completely balanced, but balanced enough to be believable), and a playable setting. Considering pretty much every other "core" deity of death in FR settings has been represented as evil (Myrkul, Chemosh, Nerull), it's obviously a major part of the genre that was good for gameplay. Until I see evil deities of life, healing, and love (which are all just as neutral as death, until you attach personal biases to them), I see no point in even respecting Kelemvor as a deity of death. He is attaching unnecessary personal biases to his portfolio and claiming that they are "right." Myrkul never claimed what he did was "right," and that's why he has nowhere near the hubris that Kelemvor does. In conclusion: If I ever used Kelemvor, I would make him something like the Evereskan Tombguard.
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 04:23 PM	A brief break for an observation. Part of the reason that everyone is often so vehement in their support of the Realms is because it’s a very rare DM that doesn’t make the Realms “his.” Ever since I started playing the Realms, I’ve adapted and re-adapted whatever was needed to make a more enjoyable game. The stats and personalities only tell you so much and thus you are free to develop as you see fit. The Kelemvor argument is a classic example of such. My Myrkul has always been a disgrace to the position of God of the Dead though. A ranting, scheming, shouting, madman whom just happens to be smarter than Bane. He’s basically a combination of Nerull from Greyhawk and probably Skelator for personality. He’s the guy who wants to make all of Toril a giant cemetery with him as Crypt Keeper. He was a great villain for the games and one of the greatest threats Toril has ever faced. The ToT was the climax of the game though when the players by divine providence (literally) had the chance to save Krynn by destroying their enemy when before he was untouchable. His replacement works because my Kel operates like Memnoch from Anne Rice’s books. He’s a god whose duty is to look after the state of souls in the Forgotten Realms, something Myrkul couldn’t have cared less about. Tiamat can bribe Kelemvor to act with her because it serves the cause of death and the dead even as the cares of the "living" (like who rules the world) is transitary If my interpretation is wrong and I imagine mine might even veers off a bit off canon is formed not just from Ed Greenwood’s vision (which admittedly GD’s is closer to I have no doubt) but also all who have contributed to the Realms from authors to my player's input to my own notes. So basically GD, if I ever seem too defensive…please forgive me and understand I am just protective of how I see my realms. I’ll try and be more proscriptive. I agree with you that Balance is important in a campaign but the examples you give are frankly a bit misleading. In my mind, Nerull isn’t the God of Death in Greyhawk…WeeJas is (Lawful Neutral). Nerull is more the god of mass murder….more an analogue to Talos. Myrkul we’ve already noted has been replaced with Kel. Chemosh is most certainly evil but he’s only recently become the God of Death and before was JUST undeath. His portrayal in Amber and Ashes is also one of a not especially malignant (evil but not EVIIL) god. Honestly, GD I actually question whether part of the problem isn’t the confusion over whether FR was meant to be “Land of a Million Gods” as Clobbering Time mentioned or “Land of the Faerun Pantheon.” If it’s the former then worshippers shouldn’t matter or a Billion worshippers on another planet should. That way there’s never going to be a shotage of power because if Bane is destroyed then Nerull from Greyhawk might come in or Cthulhu. If it’s the later then yes, your point about balance holds a lot more weight even as I think part of the problem may also be the fact that the deities seem less threatening because they are divided. Would you have the same problem you do now Gothic Dan if the pantheon was re-ordered? The “good” gods Tyr, Helm, Torm, and Ilmater Mystra, Azuth, Savras The “Neutral” gods The House of Nature (Chauntaea shifts to Neutral, Lathander too, which isn't that difficult to imagine or extreme right wing good like Helm) The Lords of Knowledge The Lords of Death (Kelemvor, Jergal, Finder as God of Rot) “The Evil Gods” The Gods of Fury (Tempus, Hoar, Red Knight, and Garagos added to their ranks) Bane, Cyric, Shar, Mask, Talona, Loviathar, Velsharoon Racial Gods go like this Dwarves=Orc Pantheon Elves=Drow Pantheon (Make Ghaundaur a GG though) Gnomes=Kobolds Halflings=Goblins Plus develop independent Seven Heavens Angels working for good that IGNORES all the gods of good's wishes and make Asmodeus a Greater Deity with the Abyss having say 66 or so Lesser Gods of Demon Princery (don't make it infinite-it NEVER worked) but working mostly on other Prime Materials. Fat chance I know but it might be interesting to imagine really what the Realms would be like if Cyric was Bane’s loyal lieutenant (or loyal like “Starscream” which would be funny) rather than mortal enemy.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 04:43 PM	Honestly, GD I actually question whether part of the problem isn’t the confusion over whether FR was meant to be “Land of a Million Gods” as Clobbering Time mentioned or “Land of the Faerun Pantheon.” Ed Greenwood has said that he likes many of the cultural/religious additions to the Realms that TSR made. I would assume it's because it makes it much more like a realistic pagan world, which had a patron deity for practically every town/area. You can ask Kuje on this one - he's the one that told me (about Ed liking some of the additions that TSR had made). And you got me on the fact that Wee Jas is the god of death in Greyhawk. But she certainly seems to be more like a LN w/evil tendencies deity, considering how vain/greedy she is. So more like Myrkul (or old school Jergal) than Kelemvor I would say And as of the War of the Lance 1E supplement book (the one with Tanis and Lord Soth on it), Chemosh is listed as the god of death, the undead, etc. Death specifically, not just the undead. So I'm not sure what might have happened in between, there. And I'm sorry if I seem defensive as well. I know I tend to have a rather arrogant nature when it comes to certain things. I simply believe that considering I've never played in the Realms, and can only draw conclusions from analyzing the supplements solely, I often have a more undiluted vision of the various attributes of the setting. Is that wrong? Maybe. But I haven't found a specific reason to think that it is yet.
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 05:00 PM	Ed Greenwood has said that he likes many of the cultural/religious additions to the Realms that TSR made. I would assume it's because it makes it much more like a realistic pagan world, which had a patron deity for practically every town/area. You can ask Kuje on this one - he's the one that told me (about Ed liking some of the additions that TSR had made). While its wrong to wish to pick Ed's brain about every little thing. I do personally wish the books would reflect this. I could learn to accept, even if I prefer small pantheon, a land of ten million gods that rule over millions of other worlds. There'd be room for Kelemvor AND Myrkul in said pantheon. Myrkul losing his divinity on Faerun til unbanished as he plots to get readmitted while Kel spreads on other planets. And you got me on the fact that Wee Jas is the god of death in Greyhawk. But she certainly seems to be more like a LN w/evil tendencies deity, considering how vain/greedy she is. So more like Myrkul (or old school Jergal) than Kelemvor I would say As stated, my Myrkul was nothing like Weejas or Jergal. Your version is actually closer to Kelemvor of my games honestly than the Myrkul of my lands. While ultimately beneficent, Kelemvor like Helm wields a HUGE hammer and his tactic to deal with heretics in the Realms ranges from conversion to sending grim reapers to drag them to Hell. My "Revised Kelemvor" in the thread, reflects this. I wouldn't mind a DARKER Kelemvor, I just like a morally ambigious one. Which is this...Kelemvor or Myrkul? I like Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey bargaining, Dance Macabre, Mask of the Red Death, the Raven, Fall of the House of Usher (punishment or blessing?), Boogiepop Phantom, A Christmas Carol, A nightmare before Christmas, Death from Sandman, and the soul harvesters of "City of Angels" None fits perfectly everything but the options of inspiration mean a Neutral Deity can have a kind and horrific face as well. I still have the fun image in my head of Talos, Oghma, Gond, and Deneir watching the Manhatten Project together. And as of the War of the Lance 1E supplement book (the one with Tanis and Lord Soth on it), Chemosh is listed as the god of death, the undead, etc. Death specifically, not just the undead. So I'm not sure what might have happened in between, there. Noted, I stand corrected. And I'm sorry if I seem defensive as well. I know I tend to have a rather arrogant nature when it comes to certain things. I simply believe that considering I've never played in the Realms, and can only draw conclusions from analyzing the supplements solely, I often have a more undiluted vision of the various attributes of the setting. Is that wrong? Maybe. But I haven't found a specific reason to think that it is yet. No problem, I just want to clarify I enjoy the conversation not because I'm trying to change anyone's minds but because I happen to enjoy checking ot see how other DM's think about matters and what might make my own games better. My goal isn't to convince you of anything but instead merely demostrate my feelings and hope both of us come out with better ideas for our game and more interesting thoughts from our debate. In any case, I'd like to personally see someone clarify what "Faithless" is in the Realms since Ed has stated that atheists don't exist in the Realms. Also why Kel gets them I suppose and what danger they represent that they warrant the decidedly not "good" Kel wall. I wouldn't mind Kelemvor as a two faced god but at least let's be consistent. If his job as Lord of the Dead is to rule ALL OF HELL (and that's what his job is) then let's have Kelemvor in charge of the Nine Hells and Abyss to a certain extent with him entrusting souls to be tormented by said monsters and in the Fugue there to be nightmares beyond imagination And have him ironically the god who leads people to paradise and desperately tries to keep heresy and atheism out of the Realms. THAT is an interesting god, a god who hates his job and works for good but is ruthless and does the most terrible stuff in the Realms. I actually see that AS his job, its just hidden away because of Hasbro and wanting to keep a "heroic" god pure
The Simbul 10-22-04, 09:04 PM	The Destruction of Agalrond- Ssass Tam and the Red Wizards will eventually realize, AFTER A LONG LONG LONG LONG TIME, that ultimately its their bad image that's done lost them the land rather than the Simbul. The Simbul's power hangs by a thread and eventually the Thayans try a new tactic... Get the people to ask the Agalarond wench to LEAVE. Perhaps by playing down their menace for once (may take some doing). Aid the Sons of Hoar then when she's gone DON'T immediately invade but make the next couple of monarchs puppets as they slowlyyyyyy move in. Then render it a province with HORDES OF THE UNDEAD AND SO FORTH!The year is 1373 DR The last Thayan invasion was in 1369 DR. Aglarondans have a very astute memory. While Aglarond has some separatist factions, this is not anything new. Aglarond has been divided into two camps since the nation was first created, and while the Sons of Hoar and the Society of the Verdant Arrow may have been given actual names in 3rd edition (as opposed to simply being reffered to as radical and racist anti-human and anti-halfelf factions) its hardly enough to construe that the Simbul's rule hangs by a thread. Aglarond may be divided into factions on opposite spectrums of its poluation, but Thay is a nation whose political dividions extend as far as the number of Thayans capable of wielding magic. You have a nation that effectively has eight different monarchs (the Zulkirs) who not ony have to content with each other, but also against the scores of lesser wizards in their respective schools who would seek to usurp them. If the Simbul vanishes tommorow, there may be some scuffles to seize power. If Szass Tam vanishes tommorow, half of Thay would collapse into open civil war of innumerous factions trying to fill the vaccum of power left behind. The Simbul has only reigned for 50 years, whilst her predecessor (a mortal) reigned for 60. Thus while she is immortal, it isnt like she has grossly overstayed her welcome on the throne just yet. The Simbul has her next heir chosen, and if and when she ever did choose to step down she would be sure to deal with the Sons of Hoar as well as any Thayan influences in the region long before leaving the realm to a new monarch. Immortality can be a problem in terms of a monarchy; but by all accounts it would be just as reasonable for the Zulkirs of Thay to ask Szass Tam to step down, given that he has occupied the Zulkirship of Necromancy for centuries, via abusing a loophole in Thayan law stating that one can remain a Zulkir “for life”, which in his case is eternity. While the Thayans can covertly bequeath gold and delusions of hope to the Sons of Hoar, the Simbul can just as easily covertly assist the more isolationist and mercantile factions in Thay, primarily the exceedingly powerful Guild of Foreign Trade. Bolstering Thay’s trade in magic items not only aids Mystra via the creation and spread of new magic, but it also ensures Aglarond’s survival, since any Thayan seeking to return to the old Imperialistic policy will have to contest with the growing power and influence of a middle class populace and powerful trade bureaucracy whose entire livelihood is based off the rest of Faerun having a good attitude towards the Red Wizards. The Red Wizards would have destroyed Agaralrond The Simbul cannot hold off an Empire forever even as she's extremely powerful. Frankly, the moment that she left for the Shades would be the moment that they pour in and annex the whole thing.Why do people consistently assume that the only thing defending Aglarond is the Simbul. Aglarondans were beating back Thayan invasions quite handily long before the Simbul every arrived. The only disadvantage Aglarond suffers when the Simbul is gone is that the Thayans may become more emboldened to attack, but the queens absence by no means ensures a Thayan victory. Aglarond may have a small army, but its geographic chokepoints greatly reduce the effectiveness of a full scale invasion. A direct march from Laprendar, even if could bypass the Umber Marches, would be stopped at the Watchwall. Likewise, marching an army in and East-West travel across the Wizards Reach would not only would be spotted ahead of time by Aglarond's agents in Escalant, Griffonrider scouts, and scrying spells, but would also be fraught with just as many travel difficulties as traversing the Umber Marches, and such an armed force would be stitting ducks for Aglarondan Rangers and shock troops coastboating down the Yuirwoods sea-bound rivers, while Aglarondan armies would be repositioned to intercept them before they reach Delhuntle, or it coul;d simply give the Aglarondans enough time to call for aid from other nations before the Thayans reach the capital. Marching an army straight into and through the Yuirwood (i.e. from the Wizards reach or the gap of plains between it and Laprendar that isnt blocked by the Watchwall) is just as likely of a foolish move, given that the Yuirwood's anti-divination properties, combined with the menhir circle portals that litter the forest would allow Aglarondan Rangers to ambush marching armies, and the Masters of the Yuirwood could simply transport sqaudrons and troop legions wherever in the Yuirwood they need to be. On top of that, an assualt upon the Yuirwood, which is one of Faerun's most primeval and ancient forests, would not only draw the Star Elves into the fight, but would also call Druidic and Elven nations from accross Faerun to its aid, which could be easily recieved through via the Yuirwoods portals. An assault from either the Tannath mountains or the Shyvar Pass are just as likely to be limited in their scope of sucess, specifically since the Aglarondans are prepared for the Thayans to take such routes, with their second largest army stationed at Emmech. The Shyvar Pass would allow a smaller number of soldiers to hold off the advance of much larger armies, and the massive legions of Thayan soldiers (with their overabundance and adornment of magic items and weapons) would prove to be a mightily tempting snack for Nartheling of Umbergoth. A naval assault of Aglarond by Thay, despite it being a peninsula, is likewise a difficult endeavor. Naval forces from the Alaor would have to circumnagivate the entire peninsula just to reach the northern coasts (which are the principle population centers). By the time they reach their destination, the Simbul could have easily called for aid from other Inner Sea nations, specifically those that have a vested interest in not having the Red Wizards at their doorsteps. An assault from the Sea of Dlurg would have to come through the River Umber, which would have to pass through Emmech to reach the north-western coasts. Given the long-standing treaty between Thesk and Aglarond, combined with the fact that Thesk can afford powerful mercenary armies and most likely doesnt wish to see their realm fall to the Red Wizards next (I am sure the Thayans salivatingly covet the almost monopolistic hold the Theskians have over access to Kara-Tur), could persuade Thesk to send aid. Likewise, given the vehement hatred of Red Wizards held by Filauxerimos, the copper dragon wyrm of the Dragon's tooth, one can imagine that if large Thayan fleets decided to pollute the sea of Dlurg with their prescence, that he and his familiy might lend a wing to the battle. Of course personally I would love to see the Thayans use their prized battle ships for something actually involving battle, since it would be very humorous to see what happens when an Aglarondan Wizard casts Dispel Magic or a Disjunction on the Red Scourge, which all the overloaded iron vessel needs to dip below the surface, fill with water, and sink like a stone. There are of course other problems with Thay invading Aglarond, namely the fact that every Aglarondand in every town would fight tooth and nail against an invading force, which is far more than I can say for the 3-4 million slaves that make up 60-75% of Thay's population. While Thay's combined armed forces outnumber all of its neighbors, its worth pointing out that those armies are divided up between eight Zulkirs and a dozen or so Tharchions. If one or several Zulkirs send their legions into Aglarond, then it leaves them vulnerable to assaults from their rivals back home. If Thay lauches an all out assault, to "steam-roll" over Aglarond, then they are screwed, since the second any major forces leave Thay, the Drow of Phaundakulzan will pop up through the tunnels beneath the Citadel, and seize and sack Thaymount from within and behind its own defenses...which could put the rest of the Plateau of Thay in a great deal of trouble, since the entire nation's defensive strategy is based off having the higher ground against a potential invading force. An all-out assault on any of Thay's neighbors would also be the opportune time for a well-planned slave revolt, given that whatever armies are left defending the Plateau of Thay will have their hands full with 2-3 million slaves, and could also entice the Mulhorandi to attack or seize a smaller province or Tharch, assuming they dont just smack back at Thay by aiding whomever the Thayans are invading, in a fashion similar to the way Thay aided Unther after Mulhorand invaded. ...oh yeah, and lets not forget about Eltab, I am sure that demon-lord is just a little :censored: off over that whole use-me-to-defeat-the-god-kings-of-mulhorand-and-keep-me-imprisoned-like-a-little-*****-for-four-centuries-or-so. It would be nice to see the Thayans get a little karmic payback from using and abusing devils and outsiders since the founding of their nation. yes the symbul can't do EVERYTHING, this is why she trains apprentices etc. in fact I predict Agaralrond will slowly but surely become a magocracy in ti me as wellWell no, Aglarond wont become a Magocracy, in that Magocracies are entirely and exclusively ruled by spellcasters. A nation can have spellcasting rulers and large spellcasting forces, like say Silverymoon or Cormyr, without actually becoming a Magocracy. Aglarond doesn’t necessarily need a powerful spellcaster as a ruler to keep Thay from seizing their realm, since they have done so in the past, but yes the Simbul’s patronage of magical arts in the coastal areas, in conjunction with the rich magical traditions of the Yuir Half-Elves and the Star Elves does lend Aglarond enough magical firepower that any average nation would need to defend itself. Unfortunately, the Agaralrond hate magic and I'm pretty sure at some point they will revolt against the Simbul and her magicians...the Sons of Hoar are the first sign of it I think.I suppose if you exclude the 40% of Aglarondans who are either not humans (half-elves, wild elves, star elves) or are humans with elven ancestry (i.e. they have elven blood but it is not enough to not make them actual “half-elves”). Furthermore, while costal human Aglarondans have had a vehement distrust of arcane spellcasters there has always been an exception for the magic of their Rulers. The Royal family which descended from King Brindor who founded Aglarond has always had a talent for Sorcery, most prominently evidenced by the twin Gray Sisters Thara and Ulae, the last Queen Illione, as well as Princess Blindesyn Ollosyne of the Yuirwood, who also descends from that line. In fact many of Aglaronds nobles are multiclassed as Arisocrat/Sorcerers. With the exception of the residents of Altumblel and the Fang, and the Sons of Hoar, most Aglarondans are capable of seeing the difference between the magic used to spare them and the magic that would enslave them, and hold their Monarchs outside their mago-phobic prejudices. would think use of the shadow weave would spread pretty quick and that the first to pick up on it and use it would be the Red Wizards. The chosen have always had a serious advantage over the other weave users like Szass Tamm, well his devotion to any god seems suspect, he craves power, would he worship Shar to take out the Simbul, yes indeed. An alliance between Shade and the RWs has too many plusses for both sides not to happen. They could split up the world ala non-aggresion pact 1939. The chosen would have to react and chances are some would die and some princes of shade would die. The big losers in this- the Simbul is the first to go and the first target of this new alliance. Unless she stops traveling around alone, shes gonna get jumped and shes gonna get killed.The Shadow Weave doesn’t have any major footholds in the Unapproachable East, and whatever Red Wizards do learn of it, it is not something they would share with the rest of their colleagues. I also cannot understand precisely how Szass Tam has suffered as a Weave-user via the Chosen, or what his motivation would be in turning to the Shadow Weave. Szass Tams prohibited schools are Illusion and Enchantment, and are both viewed as inferior schools of magic when described in novels involving him and his rivals. Turning to the Shadow Weave in no way increases Szass Tam’s chances of slaying the Simbul, not only because Mystra isn’t likely to intervene in a political/earthly situation that a Chosen willingly thrust themselves into, but also because the Simbul doesn’t need Mystra’s in a direct confrontation with the Lich. The Simbul isn’t really any more vulnerable to being jumped than any other Archmage, since even when traveling along she cant be scried upon or located, nor does she retain the same physical form. RED WIZARDS: Strike a deal with Black Network allowing Thayan enclaves to sprout up in more places and sell their wares, but the Zhents are given control over other types of trade. Thayans make lots of cash and mount a major offensive against the forces of the Simbul. MYSTRA: Mystra denies access to the weave for all Red Wizards in an attempt to protect the Simbul. Not stopping there, Mystra decides to deny all evil spellcasters access to the weave. SHAR: Gladly accepts new followers and grants access to Shadow weave to any who wish it. Mystra is greatly weakened by this and Shar launches an all out war. In the end the Simbul is killed and the Thayans prevail. Mystra adopts a new Chosen amongst the Red Wizards to balance her good-aligned chosen.Mystra isnt going to block every Thayan spellcaster from the Weave just to protect the Simbul, nor does she really need to. Mystra has the Thayans exactly where she wants them. Through her efforts with strengthening the Witches of Rashemen by giving them Place Magic, and preventing their imperialistic ambitions in the West by placing the Simbul in Aglarond, Mystra has forced the Thayans to adopt a more productive use of magic, through the mass creation of magic items, which in turn strengthens Mystra and the Weave. Thay is quite insolated from the Shadow Weave, both by virtue of the nature of Red Wizards keeping all newly discovered magic to themselves, and not passing on that knowledge to others, and by the fact that Shadow Weave crafted items aren’t likely to sell for much on the open market. A Thayan alliance with the Zhentarim, combined with an assault on Aglarond would give Faerun all the evidence it needs that the Red Wizards haven’t changed their stripes, and most of the inner sea nations, as well as many of Thay’s neighbors, can be expected to come to Aglaronds aid, since the fall of Aglarond means Thay has a free and unrestricted gateway to dominate the inner sea.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 09:21 PM	The Simbul's knowledge of the Unapproachable East is impeccable, I'd like to point out. Considering it's perhaps my favorite region (with close seconds of the Shining South and the Old Empires), I think that her assessment of the situation is perfectly accurate. And the Red Wizards are one of my favorite groups in all of Faerun (along with the Shades, the Halruaan Elders, and the Twisted Rune), so I'm glad to see that they've actually gotten a little bit more intelligent recently. I prefer their more subtle machinations, and the fact that they were proud enough to admit that, "Hey! We just keep losing our strength by invading these other countries without any real internal gogency!" I'd love to see them lie low for a couple more years, or maybe even decades (Szass Tam has the time), before they do anything openly aggressive. I'm sure it Szass Tam could wriggle his tendrils further into the Guild, he could complete his dominance over Thay, where he couldn't quite get his bony grasp around it before. A Thay under his rule, with decades of information built up from the eyes and ears placed throughout the Enclaves, would make for a very different, more competant adversary in the future years.
The Simbul 10-22-04, 09:44 PM	Szass Tam probably is worried that the mercantile trend might not last, thus by being involved through intermdiaries he doesnt risk the political embarrassment of another failure, while at the same time he can use it as a weapon to embarass any rivals who invested too much of their rescources in it if the project fails.
GothicDan 10-22-04, 09:51 PM	That's the same thought I was having. If it turns into a fruitful long term project (no overzealous Red Wizards spoil all of it within a year or so), he can create a network of trade and economy that would rival and perhaps surpass the Zhentarim, given time. I would like to see some of his efforts truly pay off, considering how long he's been trying to unify Thay. If I was Tam, I would have invested a moderate amount in the Guild to begin with, and then simply kept whatever revenue he received from the initial investment in the Guild's market, so to speak, not pouring anything new into it. Then, he could circulate the newly acquired finances through the Guild, and repeat. Thus in the end, if the 'market crashes,' so to speak, he still has all of his original riches and hasn't really lost anything, and if it does well, he's even richer than before, and has spies and allies all over Faerun. I'd like to see him smack down Thrul, myself, as much as I love Evocation and fire. I think a LE Zulkir of Evocation with strong ties to the Church of Kossuth, allying with Szass Tam, would be a wonderful step on the way to Szass Tam's total dominion of Thay.
Charles Phipps 10-22-04, 10:52 PM	I'd like to see him smack down Thrul, myself, as much as I love Evocation and fire. I think a LE Zulkir of Evocation with strong ties to the Church of Kossuth, allying with Szass Tam, would be a wonderful step on the way to Szass Tam's total dominion of Thay. Agreed, though I personally think the Zulkirs will gradually give way as a political system and Ssass Tam will eventually simply declare himself Overlord of Magic in Thay and become king in fact if not name. I honestly wish he'd ally with Velsharoon (give Velsharoon Red Wizards and Evil Spellcasters in his porfolio) his rival and make Thay a necrocracy, that'd be extremely cool I think. If Vel allies with Bane instead of Shar then he's halfway to rebuilding his Dark Triad. Gargauth could replace Bhaal or at the very least Xvim, since Bane has no problem with utilizing Demons or Devils. Frankly, I think the best place for the Red Wizards of Thay to conquer is NOT Agarlorond or Rashemi but Unther. Seriously, the Red Wizards can move into the country with their troops and Navy along with recruit plenty of troops. They can induct the reigning wizards of the capital city into their ranks and spread their armies across the remaining third of Unther. A few portals they set up and the entire place will swiftly fall under their dominion along with a solidified hold. The Thayans will have Mulhorandi in a pincer but the entire South will suddenly be open for Thayan dominance with Chestnea a stone throw away with a people very receptive to their power. If they can somehow Fel Muhornadi and unite their kingdom then suddenly the Thayans will possess one of the largest Empires in the Realms. Chestnea and Thest would be sure to follow. Plus they would not have their "rep" working against them for recruiting people with Thayan gold against the Muhorandi in Unther. Frankly though, I'd like to see the Knights of the Shield and Thayan enclaves either allied or taken over by the Zhentriam. If Thay can conquer Unther then they don't have to be the merchants they are anymore and the Zhents can get their due respect as the "respectable merchants" the Thayans are trying to steal while also being an Illuminati type organization from Sea to Shining Sea. I frankly can't see Manshoon or Fzoul letting Thay muscle in on their business without a fight. The High Blade of Mulmaster though could actually make peace with the two factions though
Mirtek 10-23-04, 03:42 AM	he should be Neutral evil though. A neutral evil god of Assassins, intrigue, illusions, and lies would be awesome for LE clerics. Strife, his Chaotic Evil alignment, and Murder though make him more the god of loonies. He actually was NE until his period of madness. See the 2e FRCS, which is dated prior to the whole Cyrinishad thing, and has Cyric as NE.THAY- Thay is a magocracy. Thay's gods are Bane and Kossuth though (and probably Cyric). This makes no sense whatsoever as a magocracy. If Mystra really ever WAS the god of magic in general rather than non-exploitive magic then their gods should be Azuth, Mystra, and THEN maybe Bane and Cyric. Cyric, as god of illusion, is a god of magic.
Charles Phipps 10-23-04, 04:33 AM	He actually was NE until his period of madness. See the 2e FRCS, which is dated prior to the whole Cyrinishad thing, and has Cyric as NE. Cyric, as god of illusion, is a god of magic. Quite correct. That is an important note and I'd like to know more about Cyric's relationship with the Zulkir of Illuison personally. BTW, an example of what I mean of gods as concepts is best fulfilled by Gaiman's Eternals personally. The whole lot of them are neutral and capable of great good as well as evil (except maybe Destiny) That concept makes the gods remarkably jaded though as they've seen death and their porfolio from the beginning and every angle of it. It leaves them rather difficult to shock.
GothicDan 10-23-04, 11:55 AM	Considering the Red Wizard's ego, I don't think the higher rank ones (including the Zulkirs, obviously) would be very pious regardless of what deity they "worship." And I think it's a stretch to have them worship the gods of magic (Velsharon, Mystra, Azuth, Cyric) above all others, because that would be almost like admitting that their arcane magic is just as linked to the gods as divine magic is. That would make them seem more like god-slaves. No, it's just easier to worship deities that fall in line more with their personal tastes/attitudes, because then it makes it seem like they are more independent of the gods of magic. And the Zulkir of Illusion - I don't know how well she would accept Cyric, considering she must have liked Leira enough to get a tattoo of her symbol on her forehead. And considering she has levels in Shadow Adept, per patron deity is probably Shar. Which is actually a very good choice, seeing as how secretive she was even compared to the other Zulkirs. She seems like she'd make a good Sharran.
Cole Deschain 10-23-04, 03:09 PM	^ Actually, GothicDan, it's entirely possible that she doesn't know Leira is dead. My view of Cyric is pretty well-established (just click back a couple pages...) but he's more than capable of pretending to be a god as weird and distant as Leira. It's certainly lesswork than some of his other intrigues...
Charles Phipps 10-23-04, 08:00 PM	I'm thinking personally of the various "images" TSR, WOTC, and Ed Greenwood have had of the Forgotten Realms and I'd thought I'd share them here. The Original Forgotten Realms: Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms is a moderate level fantasy setting with a fair balance between magic, fighters, and political powers. The villains and heroes hold an uneasy dente with the Balance constantly being shifted to one side or another by the actions of their individual members (and PCs). The Zhents are seperate and heretical before the Church of Bane, the Seven Sisters are Mysterious beings whose true nature is unknown, Elminster is a powerful (14th level or so) wizard whose retired and on the edge of dying of old age despite 400 years of life, and while mortals exist in the pantheon....they are fairly invincible. The Elves and Dwarves both exist in the land but neither party is on decline. The Moonshaes do not exist and "Chosen" status seems to be purely honorary. Cormanthor is an inhabited elven realm even if their greatest city is in ruins and Netheril along with Imasaki are in ruins with neither side likely to return anything but their remnants in magical items routinely found on (most being normal magical items). The Gods Rule the Great Wheel with Bane the master of the Nine Hells and scaring all the various powerful demons who have their own agendas. There is no Kara Tur, Zhakara, or Hordelands, not even the Moonshaes as anything but a tropical archipalago... there are "other lands" but they are undefined. There are no racial pantheons and the gods of FR rule over all races clearly and presumably created them all. The Epic Forgotten Realms- The Forgotten Realms was envisioned as a setting for SORCERY in the Sword and Sorcery genre. Elminster was spiked up to 29th level, 1000 years old along with the other siblings as Greyhawk was curiously made the "low" magic setting (in complete reversal of the intent of the creators). Netheril allowed spells up to 12th level and the creation of incredible objects of power along with the theory that "everything needs a bigger stick." Many other NPCs were immediately made huge levels from Azoun to Manshoon. Forgotten Realms this style is THE place for people in the Epic Handbook to adventure since the gods are really people meant to be fought and conquered rather than submitted to (odd given they are statless at this time). The "Everything Under the Sun" Forgotten Realms- This was the weird attempt to make the Forgotten Realms into some sort of Alternate Reality Earth and also incorporate everything from Greyhawk into FR even if none of it made any sense whatsoever. Thus the racial pantheons (which should have STAYED in Greyhawk) from Elf to Dragon made their way into the campaign setting along with Orcus and plenty of other nasties (the Nine Hells are FR while the Abyss is more Greyhawk...weird). The historical settings of Kara Tur, Zhakara, and Maztica were also randomly placed inside the Realms when they would have better fit as standalone supplements to incorporate into gameworlds as one saw fit. Our FR- The writers continued attempts to make it all make sense. Am I missing any FRs?
GothicDan 10-23-04, 08:28 PM	Good point, Cole. Charles, not to be offensive, but I feel that your generalizations about the "3 FRs" are incredibly presumptuous and a bit over-generalized. I might comment more when I'm not so tired.
Charles Phipps 10-23-04, 08:37 PM	Good point, Cole. Charles, not to be offensive, but I feel that your generalizations about the "3 FRs" are incredibly presumptuous and a bit over-generalized. I might comment more when I'm not so tired. Probably. The idea was to chart trends in the Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms wasn't made by saying "hey! Let's stick all of our high level characters here!" Even if one developer of author decided to use that vision then it would certainly not effect say Elaine Cunningham or Salvatore's visions. I wouldn't have posted it if it was without flaw or contention. I do believe there's some merit to the idea that FR has evolved in several different ways that have been abandoned over time though. Retcons, changes via edition, and the like all have effected FR in different ways as the developers try to use different visions for the land. The "everything under the sun" FR is actually a direct developer quote though so don't chide me on that, I doubt Ed ever envisioned that though. I personally would like to speculate and if necessary, presume on developing an idea of the "variety of FRs" to find out what people saw the Realms as during several periods of development since those have, in my opinion, change a few times. If I'm wrong...I'm wrong.
Mr. Wilson 10-24-04, 09:59 PM	Within the next few Realms Years: 1. The Silver Marches solidify and become the continents Northern outpost against the Orc Hordes and Giant clans. They also serve as a buffer zone between the Shades and Waterdeep. 2. The Lizardfolk and Yuan-Ti make a play for some southern nation. Everything is being carefully laid out in the sourcebooks for some sort of major power play by the Scaly Ones. 3. Bane and Cyric's churches erupt into a full-scale war. I'm not sure how this would work out in Canon, though IMC, Bane would crush Cyric like the lowly bug he is, and use his body to give life to Bhaal. Which leads us to.... 4. The Return of Bhaal (and possibly Myrkul): His assassin's already made a reapperance in Dragon, and Myrkul is still floating about in his artifact. Somehow, someway, the bad two will return. 5. Thay supplies Unther to resist Mulhorand. Thay really doesn't want to see a rejuvanated Mulhorand, so it's best bet is to supply the resistance in Unther to bog down the young War Pharoh. 6. Lolth returns....and boy, is she angry. I'm assuming that's the main thrust of the April '05 book, and I see it as a major occurrance for the Realms. Of course, this is just all my opinion, from reading the clues that are presented in the latest supplements.