Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Faraer 10-07-07, 08:21 PM	Of all the coming changes to the Realms, Rich Baker has provided us with some detailed reasoning for the removal of Mystra and the Weave from the setting. These are my thoughts on it.Anyway, why is Mystra dead? OK, several reasons, some in-world, some meta-management... 1. It's an appropriate (if grim) finish to the story of Cyric's betrayal begun in the Time of Troubles series. Time to move on and tell new stories about Cyric. 2. It's an appropriate (if grim) finish to the story of Shar's jealousy and desire to seize the portfolio of magic. Time to move on and tell new stories about Shar.That is, Mystra's death facilitates Wizards' telling stories about two other gods, though it isn't necessary for it, while stopping them (and those of us who use the new setting) telling stories about Mystra.3. We know magic's changing anyway, and it seems like a stretch to say that Mystra would make that change herself. This way we don't have to explain why she would do such a thing. The answer's logical: She wouldn't, but if she's dead then it's completely out of her hands.Magic changing is not an inevitability but a deliberate choice. Given that choice, here the advantage to destroying Mystra is apparently to save Wizards designers a little ingenuity (while calling on other ingenuity to have her death make any sense).4. Many people--players as well as game designers and authors--perceived that Mystra (and her Chosen) were simply too strong. She's seen as far and away the most powerful deity, and her Chosen are clearly the most powerful heroes. Authors actually have to deliberately account for each of the Chosen when they're telling big stories and explain what they're doing or what they're not doing and why.I can't tell whether Rich is giving such perception itself as a reason for change. If so, no argument is made for it. In as far as this is about the actual Realms, let's go through it. No explanation is given for 'simply too strong' (i.e. for what?), no argument for why 'far and away the most powerful deity' (an overstatement, and in any case transparent and irrelevant to mortals on Faerűn) is bad. 'Chosen are clearly the most powerful heroes': quibbles aside, there is absolutely no reason for singling them out among the many other similarly mighty characters of all alignments other than their prominence in the sources, which falls on the 'perception' side, and authors don't have to account for them any more than scores of known individuals, adventuring bands and other organizations, all of whose presence might be a disadvantage for those wanting to run simple (unRealmslike) campaigns, though Rich doesn't say so.5. Some Chosen will still be around post-Spellplague, but we really do want to get them out of the spotlight and get your PCs (on the game side) or less superheroic characters (on the novel side) into the picture.Which, you would think, could be accomplished by taking the spotlight off them and ceasing to abuse them as protagonists, as some of us have long wished.. . . we're pretty sure that it'll be a better setting when magic isn't the purview of one deity and her Chosen aren't the toughest mortals on the planet.Once more, no argument given. So either my comprehension is seriously shot, or Rich didn't express 'the problems we perceive with Mystra' as well as he wanted, or there are more that he didn't mention, or these are distinctly feeble arguments for something so major. How convincing do you find these reasons?
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 08:58 PM	How convincing do you find these reasons? As I responded, not at all.
Lord Karsus 10-07-07, 11:19 PM	-Personally, I'm a little surprised at how..."out of the loop" Mr. Baker seems, in regards to actual Realmslore, as opposed to the perceptions of various 'special interest' groups.
Dark Wizard 10-07-07, 11:55 PM	Probably just a marketing thing specifically aimed at the 'special interest.' Gah, I hate that concept. I suppose we belong in one such group.
MaskedOne 10-08-07, 01:16 AM	Mystra is being executed to a) facillitate storytelling of two less interesting (too me) divinities that WotC likes and b) remove illusions about her power since her Chosen are not the most powerful mortals and she has not possessed a monopoly on magic at any point in 3E. SW bypasses her, Psions bypass her and the existence of raw magic means that almost any variant magic system can be listed as a bypass to her authority My stance from the Ask the Authors thread holds. If WotC is killing divinities to dispel illusions than I have a hit list for them starting with Cyric and Shar. I'm utterly ignoring the mechanical logic as at most that can be accomplished simply through a new incarnation of the Weave and Baker's commentary implies that there won't be a new Weave.
Bifford 10-08-07, 12:23 PM	Maybe the changing of magic is a way of introducing 4th edition changes to the Forgotten Realms (as opposed to just pretend it was always so).
Alediran 10-08-07, 12:28 PM	Maybe the changing of magic is a way of introducing 4th edition changes to the Forgotten Realms (as opposed to just pretend it was always so). The developers already said this is what they intended to do, so if you weren't aware of this, you made a good guess. The problem is that the developers could have used many other possibilities for the change, for example Mystra absorbing the Shadow Weave (who even it's creator didn't liked the idea) could have made the change in the magical system, killing two birds in one shot, the SW that nobody likes and giving an in-game explanation for the new system. IMC I would have preferred the "it has always been that way" approach for the new edition. It may not be the most consistent way to do it, but the rules should never matter when it comes to lore.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 03:30 PM	So either my comprehension is seriously shot, or Rich didn't express 'the problems we perceive with Mystra' as well as he wanted, or there are more that he didn't mention, or these are distinctly feeble arguments for something so major. How convincing do you find these reasons? Not very convincing at all. I don't have too much to add, as my opinions on these given reasons pretty much echo your own (and I've been repeating myself lately regarding how Mystra's Chosen are NOT all-powerful). I don't agree that this new setting will be "better" than the old Realms. In what way? I didn't see Mystra and her Chosen as "problems", so getting them out of the way doesn't make the setting better for me, it makes it worse!
Faraer 10-08-07, 03:30 PM	-Personally, I'm a little surprised at how..."out of the loop" Mr. Baker seems, in regards to actual Realmslore, as opposed to the perceptions of various 'special interest' groups.I did observe this: The Realms that Rich suggests, with Mystra's Chosen accounted for but many other local, wandering and far-scrying parties ignored, is much the Realms he portrayed in the Last Mythal books, "The Bladesinger's Lesson" (which I read recently and enjoyed) and Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land (which he outlined): a simplified, somewhat lonely Realms with less than its true density of actors. Reading the novels, I wondered in this great sweep where Mane's Band were, the Knights of the North, Mintiper Moonsilver and Asilther Graelor, Aubaerus the Ravenmaster and other druids, Yandrin Thorl, various beholders... A few such allusions go a long way; compare these sources to Ed Greenwood's brief chapter on the 1358 DR Battle of Shadowdale in the first of the FRE modules.I'm utterly ignoring the mechanical logic as at most that can be accomplished simply through a new incarnation of the Weave and Baker's commentary implies that there won't be a new Weave.We can't be sure till 4E is published. But nothing leaked so far suggests its magic system is metaphysically so different from the Realms as to require all this, especially as we've also been told that in some ways it represents Realms magic as-is better than previous rulesets. What's critical, I think, is not Mystra as a character, or her power as a god, but the complex, subtle, and powerful magical Art that Ed has woven over 40 years, with its metaphysical and moral themes. This amazing sphere of systems and ideas, never published in more than chunks and splinters and hints, is precious artistically and commercially, and Wizards would be lack-witted to discard it.
MaskedOne 10-08-07, 04:52 PM	It's not this particular Mystra that I care about. I like Midnight but not enough to be quite as pissy as I have been. The concept of Mystra however is another matter. The idea of magic itself having a sentience and personality is what holds my interest in the character. Admittedly, Mystra is not literally magic but rather a path to the use of it but the concept and portrayal is close enough to be interesting. There is of course more to Toril's magic that I enjoy but with the death or insanity of several thousand casters many of whom are probably high level, I don't expect to be seeing much of the rest.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 04:59 PM	I agree--what matters to me is the concept of Mystra, not necessarily this particular Mystra (Midnight). It seems the FR design team doesn't even like the concept of Mystra.
Bonzai 10-08-07, 06:53 PM	My interpretation comes from one statement that WotC made about 4.0, and that was that they "wanted to get rid of all setting specific rules". Expedition to Undermountian seems to be the direction they are heading in. In case you didn't know, they killed off Halaster, and took out all realms specific material. This way, the adventure becomes generic enough that it can be used in an Eberron or Greyhawk campaign with little work. This is what they want with the Realms in 4.0. To accomplish this, they needed to get rid of the weave, the shadow weave, regional feats, presumably realms specific PrC's, Dieties that were not easily interchangable with the core ones, Races, etc... While on one level I understand what they are doing, it serves to rob the Realms of it's flavor. It was different, thats why I played it. Now I have to ask, what is to keep me playing in the realms? At this point it is tempting to wash my hands of it, and start new in a home brew setting. I disliked how powerful Mystra was (I think the weave was too all encompassing), she was a part of the flavor of the Realms. As was the weave, as was Halaster, as was Thay, etc...
Lord Karsus 10-08-07, 10:09 PM	I did observe this: The Realms that Rich suggests, with Mystra's Chosen accounted for but many other local, wandering and far-scrying parties ignored, is much the Realms he portrayed in the Last Mythal books, "The Bladesinger's Lesson" (which I read recently and enjoyed) and Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land (which he outlined): a simplified, somewhat lonely Realms with less than its true density of actors. Reading the novels, I wondered in this great sweep where Mane's Band were, the Knights of the North, Mintiper Moonsilver and Asilther Graelor, Aubaerus the Ravenmaster and other druids, Yandrin Thorl, various beholders... A few such allusions go a long way; compare these sources to Ed Greenwood's brief chapter on the 1358 DR Battle of Shadowdale in the first of the FRE modules. -I didn't exactly mean it like that. I meant that I am surprised that Richard Baker feels: Many people--players as well as game designers and authors--perceived that Mystra (and her Chosen) were simply too strong. She's seen as far and away the most powerful deity, and her Chosen are clearly the most powerful heroes. -As 'Head Designer', or whatever his title is (I know it's something to that effect), you really should be 'on the ball', concerning knowledge. If one simply flipped through the FRCS, or any other 'far-encompassing' FR sourcebook, they'd see that Mystra (and her Chosen) are clearly not the most powerful heroes. They'd see that Mystra (and her Chosen) are clearly not too strong. -With such a position comes some responsibility. Even if he (Baker) feels that all of this is true, his position should dictate that he doesn't say such...'innane' things out loud. George Bush might hate black people (I'm not saying he does or doesn't), but just by virtue of his position, he is not going to say something like that. -Am I expressing myself properly? I'm not really sure that I am...
Dark Wizard 10-08-07, 10:29 PM	LK, what you just said is exactly the same viewpoint I've developed ever since reading the latest designer blogs and replies due to the concern over the 4E changes. No matter if the setting is or isn't overrun by Mystra and her Chosen, if a designer says it is so (especially backed up by removal of those elements with events like the Spellplague), no amount of changes or official lore stating otherwise will remove that stigma from the Realms, whatever the edition or version of the Realms. I wouldn't say it is a definite, but I feel that by confirming this sentiment with the Spellplague and the god-deaths it may have forced the exact opposite reaction the designers intended from fans and potential new gamers. I would hate for future scenarios to play out like this: - 4E DM: So let's start a game in the Forgotten Realms, there are plenty of things we can do in the Realms. - Player 1: Naw, the setting is too busy for me, full of epic characters doing all the adventures and crazy gods that smite you for no reason. - 4E DM: Why do you think that? - Player 2: The designers said so, I can show you the posts they made before 4e, all of them agree that the setting was broken. - 4E DM: Oh, I guess it was... if the designers say so. But the problem was solved in the Spellplague. - Player 1: But Elminster is still around and some of those gods and characters probably also survived. I'd rather not play in the Realms at all. - Player 2: Yeah, all the big name NPCs did everything already. Let's play in another setting. - 4E DM: Um... okay I guess we'll try something else.
badger3k 10-08-07, 10:59 PM	In several years of playing, my players have never once encountered any of the chosen. Kinda funny for some people who are so powerful.... Seriously - they are complaining that these NPCs are too powerful. Who made them? Who said "That's OK. Let's run them like this. Let's let the author ramp up the power even higher. Let's give the gamers (and readers) the power trip they want (or we think they want)." Seems to me that they are doing a "Legion of Super-Heroes" bit. That's where the writers realize they have gone as far as they can, so they rewrite the history and tell the story all over again (not quite fair, especially since I am still a LSH fan today as I was in the 70s, but it is basically true). It seems like they are more concerned with the authors than with the gamers. Personally, I had no problems integrating anything into my campaign rules-wise. If something basic changed (such as adding warlocks, or crusaders, or Aspects - etc), then this was something new to the characters. The history and current reality of the Realms was fluid enough to accomodate it. The Realms could take any number of changes they wanted, if the gamers wanted it to. Unfortunately, the same can't be said of the authors, who would suddenly find all their stories with holes in them plot-wise. So the safest thing is to scrap the whole thing and start over. I haven't looked at the original bit, but all the reasons seem more paperback-oriented than gamer-oriented. Does WOTC make more money off their book division that they have to favor them so much? Or, is it just that it is a lot easier for them to scrap everything and remake it from scratch?
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 11:00 PM	LK, what you just said is exactly the same viewpoint I've developed ever since reading the latest designer blogs and replies due to the concern over the 4E changes. No matter if the setting is or isn't overrun by Mystra and her Chosen, if a designer says it is so (especially backed up by removal of those elements with events like the Spellplague), no amount of changes or official lore stating otherwise will remove that stigma from the Realms, whatever the edition or version of the Realms. I wouldn't say it is a definite, but I feel that by confirming this sentiment with the Spellplague and the god-deaths it may have forced the exact opposite reaction the designers intended from fans and potential new gamers. I would hate for future scenarios to play out like this: - 4E DM: So let's start a game in the Forgotten Realms, there are plenty of things we can do in the Realms. - Player 1: Naw, the setting is too busy for me, full of epic characters doing all the adventures and crazy gods that smite you for no reason. - 4E DM: Why do you think that? - Player 2: The designers said so, I can show you the posts they made before 4e, all of them agree that the setting was broken. - 4E DM: Oh, I guess it was... if the designers say so. But the problem was solved in the Spellplague. - Player 1: But Elminster is still around and some of those gods and characters probably also survived. I'd rather not play in the Realms at all. - Player 2: Yeah, all the big name NPCs did everything already. Let's play in another setting. - 4E DM: Um... okay I guess we'll try something else. I think a lot of Realm haters hate Drizzt just as much as Elminster but yeah I can see that conservation happening though they are going to have the RPGA supporting their Realms...
18DELTA 10-09-07, 12:11 AM	My interpretation comes from one statement that WotC made about 4.0, and that was that they "wanted to get rid of all setting specific rules". Expedition to Undermountian seems to be the direction they are heading in. In case you didn't know, they killed off Halaster, and took out all realms specific material. This way, the adventure becomes generic enough that it can be used in an Eberron or Greyhawk campaign with little work. This is what they want with the Realms in 4.0. To accomplish this, they needed to get rid of the weave, the shadow weave, regional feats, presumably realms specific PrC's, Dieties that were not easily interchangable with the core ones, Races, etc... While on one level I understand what they are doing, it serves to rob the Realms of it's flavor. It was different, thats why I played it. Now I have to ask, what is to keep me playing in the realms? At this point it is tempting to wash my hands of it, and start new in a home brew setting. I disliked how powerful Mystra was (I think the weave was too all encompassing), she was a part of the flavor of the Realms. As was the weave, as was Halaster, as was Thay, etc... This is the darkside of "One Core to Rule it All!' I think the designers were looking at "The Bizarro Realms". I had no problems with what is being changed.
95 10-09-07, 12:14 AM	5. Some Chosen will still be around post-Spellplague, but we really do want to get them out of the spotlight and get your PCs (on the game side) or less superheroic characters (on the novel side) into the picture. this would have easily been solved by choosing novel ideas based on new lower level characters.... develope them instead of using the old tried and true characters in novel after novel (even though i know this is where the money is... sequals)
MarkusTay63 10-09-07, 01:53 PM	There is no problem getting rid of Mystra - it has been done before and is something already established in past lore. The designers can make any changes they want to explain away the 4e mechanics. All we ask is that they do so in a mature and intelligent manner. "It is not the portal we fear, but what awaits on the other side" Suprise us - give us something magnificent with the FRCG.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-09-07, 03:14 PM	this would have easily been solved by choosing novel ideas based on new lower level characters.... develope them instead of using the old tried and true characters in novel after novel (even though i know this is where the money is... sequals) I'm wondering: if these epic level characters are where the money is, then where is the incentive to dispose of them? Who PUT these characters in the spotlight to begin with?
Faraer 10-09-07, 03:24 PM	So, who finds these reasons more persuasive than I do, and in what ways?
MarkusTay63 10-09-07, 03:30 PM	I'm wondering: if these epic level characters are where the money is, then where is the incentive to dispose of them? Who PUT these characters in the spotlight to begin with?Their stories are old and getting stale, so by extending the timeline forward and creating a new world and new NPCs, the writer's wind up with a bigger 'playground' to write in. In another 10-15 years, they will have repeated their mistakes and the new characters will be too awesome and intimidating to new players, and we will get yet another wipe. Like I keep saying, it's NOT the setting that is broken....
Charles Phipps 10-09-07, 03:55 PM	So, who finds these reasons more persuasive than I do, and in what ways? Frankly, I don't have any problem with them. I've found that overestimating the intelligence of my players (I've had several gaming groups I never was entirely fond of) is something that I've done too often. *snooty voice* Frankly, the average player of my games is a crude thing. He's less smart than he thinks he is is, a violent and bad roleplayer, while also being entirely in need of anti-bacteria or odor spray.*end snooty voice* Not all geeks are created equal I'm afraid. I love the Chosen of Mystra and Midnight. *MY* Midnite (separate from everyone elses "My Midnite") was a friend of our player characters since Day 1 and even the lover of one of them before she became a goddess. Her death is something that will seriously throw a wrench in our games. But I also recognize that it creates drama in the setting. Frankly, I'm honestly glad that we're going to get some end to the nonstop whining from FanboyzTM that are constantly complaining about the Chosen of Mystra. Seriously, when it's a part of Baldur's Gate that player characters get bugged by lesser adventurers to resolve problems beneath their dignity, you've got to wonder how ingrained the question of "Why doesn't Elminster solve it himself" has been in the setting due to power creep. At my table and on these boards and others, you'd think Elminster killed Christ for the complaints about them that I've heard. How many times has "Mystra shouldn't be able to shut away the Weave from other gods" or "Mystra shouldn't be NG" has come up. Now that the developers are LISTENING to this non-stop spiel you'd think they'd be happy. Of course, I've never entirely understood another problem that is here and that's CyricHateTM. Cyric is, in my games, the setting's Loki and this is just the sort of plan that he'd pull off. He's like Greyhawk's Vecna, the guy who can pull off the "Entire World is going to be destroyed" style stunts. Yet fans refuse to treat the character seriously despite him being a part of the setting for twenty years. Hell he's been part of it longer than Bane has to be honest, if don't count the time he's been dead. I think developing him is a good thing. Shar is also one of Faerun's best villains and it's good to see someone resolve the Shadow Weave issue conclusively. Shar is allowed a permanent victory and it helps remind us the bad guys are extremely dangerous and extremely competent.
Faraer 10-09-07, 04:02 PM	At the risk of detouring the thread (which I'd prefer to keep for discussing Wizards' given arguments), how do you think your players came to feel like that? (How do they even know that Mystra can shut the Weave off from other gods, when she doesn't do so?) Where does the vitriol come from? And what do you think they mean by 'shouldn't' -- why would they like that better?
ClobberinTime 10-09-07, 04:13 PM	Guys, I have been out of the loop for the last 6 weeks or so (moving, new job, etc...). So what do we know for sure at this point about Mystra and the Weave. I can't tell if you guys are quoting each other or Rich here. :(
Charles Phipps 10-09-07, 04:42 PM	At the risk of detouring the thread (which I'd prefer to keep for discussing Wizards' given arguments), how do you think your players came to feel like that? (How do they even know that Mystra can shut the Weave off from other gods, when she doesn't do so?) Where does the vitriol come from? And what do you think they mean by 'shouldn't' -- why would they like that better? I think that part of it has to do with the fact that a lot of them read the novels. We started with the Time of Troubles so none of them had any experience with Bane other than "he's the god that WE killed" and that he used to be a big SauronTM like badass. So there's none of the "Johnny Come lately problems of it all" that some 1E have with Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul dying. I think some of them also objected on the idea that they were being watched and, if they ever wanted to turn against Mystra, they couldn't do it with magic since the Goddess could just shut it off. It's apparently engrained in my players hearts that they're all going to potentially live the Raistlin Majere Fantasy at some point. Weirdly, most of my players don't object to Elminster the character, whom I run like Ed Greenwood runs him. I.e. a Complete Jackass who shows up to make insane jokes and make our player character's lives harder than it really should. He's a character the player characters hate but not so much the players in personality. They seem to just resent his stats and the idea that they're his henchmen rather than his associates. Which, somehow, having such awesome power seems to imply to them. I think, on some level, the players resent anything that seems too formidable to actually oppose in-game. I don't know why this is the case.
Xa Roth 10-09-07, 10:42 PM	At the risk of being slightly to abrupt ... :) ... any DM or PC that follows the arguement that any (let alone specific) NPCS/hereos/villians/etc are too powerful to deal with in-world just aren't being creative enough ... and that includes head designers. I (and my mates) have been playing in FRs for most of our RPG lives and have never had any problems along these lines. Sure, in some adventures, the Chosen a big scarey monsters. In other adventures they're allies. In still others, they're never seen or heard of. Lets follow the line of arguement to its comclusion for a moment .... Lets get rid of the Gods ... they're too powerful. Lets get rid of ancient dragons .. they're too powerful. Beholders ... just damn scarey ;) etc etc What have we got left .... gobbos .... well the little smeggers can see in the dark = too powerful ..... hmmmmm .... it's pretty damn boring this FRs :rolleyes: ... the rabbits are nice though ... Did you ever hear about the vorpal bunny? Damn ... too powerful ....:weep: Getting a report from a Head Designer with reasoning like this embedded in it just goes to show how desperate they are to come up with an excuse for us all to spend more money on a setting we already know like our partner's skin ... :rolleyes: I'll watch the changes with interest to see whether they are done intelligently (and therefor make for an enjoyable setting still), but if they are done with the same level of skill that the reasoning was ... I'll stick with the Realms I know. That's no more cash WotC .... just in case you missed my point ;) DISCLAIMER: All of this is my personal opinion and is not designed to annoy people ... my apologies if it has :)
Charles Phipps 10-09-07, 11:19 PM	Its' not the issue of being creative in my opinion, it's the issue of generating drama. Can you play in a gameworld where the police are competent, honest, well armed, and very intelligent? Absolutely. You can also play in a world where the Police are overwhelmed, outgunned, and make Officer Tenpenny look like Mother Theresa.
Dark Wizard 10-09-07, 11:42 PM	I wonder if by trying to cut loose the old baggage too quickly and completely they might have skipped over some of their best chances for relevant and striking drama. Or if by holding on to some weak sense of familiarity to the old setting, in the hopes of avoiding accusations of destroying the setting (::cough::Elminster and Drizzt::cough::) they might not make the cut cleanly enough to create the separation they seek. Basically I hope this doesn't come out half-half, neither here or there. With all the fan comments going around lately, I wonder if something closer to a Marvel Ultimates style restart might have been more appropriate for their goals and still endured about the same level of concern and speculation from fans that they've gone through with either way using this jump-forward plan.
Stigger 10-10-07, 12:52 AM	I find the reasonings utterly unacceptable personally. Nor do I find them particularly sincere or reasoned. Sounds more like caving into a vocal minority, going the easy route and just ditching everything worthwhile so they don't have to keep up continuity, and trying to justify it in the meantime with tripe and drivel that I somehow doubt even they believe if they were actually fans of the materials, as they seem to claim to be. If they are, they certainly aren't all that familiar with the sublime details of it. Which is something I might add, has been apparent to me for quite some time, given the dearth of lore we've seen in 3/3.5e. Hard to hook new fans in on the details of the setting and giving them a good look at the beauty of it, when the don't bother publishing new materials that actually give it out and update it for the new ruleset... Just compare the thing of wonder that was the 2e City of Splendors boxed set with the thin beast that was Waterdeep, City of Splendors for 3.5e... sure a lot of the basic information was the same, some of it quite literally verbatim reprinting, but made so bare bones and anemic that the material inside made a joke of the idea that this place could actually be the City of Splendors...
Charles Phipps 10-10-07, 01:19 AM	I somehow doubt even they believe if they were actually fans of the materials, as they seem to claim to be. Dude its Richard Baker.
johnkretzer 10-10-07, 02:08 AM	Dude its Richard Baker. ? Anyway I was discussing with somebody on another thread about the mythology basis of the gods of FR with those of the greak gods when I relize why I dislike these changes, besides the fact they are not fixing the root of the problem...canon novels. The problem is they are destroying the Realms because they are destroying the Realms mythology of the Realms. The Weave and Mystra(atleast the goddes in any shape) are a heavy part of that mythology. But they just tossed it aside because I think they wanted to be creative and create their own mythology. I think this very sad. As I said they should have just created their own setting...I proably would have brought it too and liked it...(I have loved all D&D setting to a point)
Charles Phipps 10-10-07, 02:54 AM	I have no interest in the Realms without them. The Realms is a pleasant and evocative setting but its just generic D&D fantasy in the end. I could play in Conan's Hyborean Age or Mystra, which I like almost as much. What seperates the Realms from everything else is that TIME PASSES. Every year that goes on is another year in the Realms with things occurring. It's a living setting. The day they stop making novels canon is the day I toss my Realms books aside like I did Ravenloft and say "You were a good old girl but you're gone now." I have more Realms books than a room can hold but I buy more because NEW THINGS OCCUR. Seriously, why the Hell should I drop 27.99 or whatever ridiculous price the books are today for a book about Waterdeep as it was in the settings beginning? Here's a newflash, I have the original Waterdeep supplement, the supplement after that, and the third supplement AFTER THAT. I'll get the 4th edition supplement because Waterdeep will have changed from what it was. I have no need for rules updates, it's all about the storyline setting changes for me.
johnkretzer 10-10-07, 03:20 AM	I have no interest in the Realms without them. The Realms is a pleasant and evocative setting but its just generic D&D fantasy in the end. I could play in Conan's Hyborean Age or Mystra, which I like almost as much. What seperates the Realms from everything else is that TIME PASSES. Every year that goes on is another year in the Realms with things occurring. It's a living setting. The day they stop making novels canon is the day I toss my Realms books aside like I did Ravenloft and say "You were a good old girl but you're gone now." I have more Realms books than a room can hold but I buy more because NEW THINGS OCCUR. Seriously, why the Hell should I drop 27.99 or whatever ridiculous price the books are today for a book about Waterdeep as it was in the settings beginning? Here's a newflash, I have the original Waterdeep supplement, the supplement after that, and the third supplement AFTER THAT. I'll get the 4th edition supplement because Waterdeep will have changed from what it was. I have no need for rules updates, it's all about the storyline setting changes for me. To me a novel is exactly the opposite of a living world. Because as in a novel everything serves the purpose of the story. That is not saying it can't be done in novels. I think the earlier novels did it well for the most part. Now they are doing it seems to me just for the novels. Also I want to see changes to the FR also, but I would rather them be graduel, rational, and keep the Realms mythology intact. I like it this way so that the PCs can actualy get involved in the world and that DMs can incorporate those changes better. This keep campaigns close to the baseline so that it is easier for new people( new gamers and old gamers) to join a FR games. I understand your point. And agree with it, I just think we disagree in the excution of it.
Charles Phipps 10-10-07, 04:03 AM	To me a novel is exactly the opposite of a living world. Because as in a novel everything serves the purpose of the story. That is not saying it can't be done in novels. I think the earlier novels did it well for the most part. Now they are doing it seems to me just for the novels. Actually, I heard that the novels actually bring in more revenue than the RPG books do. The novels being able to reach a much wider audience than the gaming crowd and less expensive to produce. That's why TSR cranked out hundreds of Dragonlance novels and continued making them despite the series failing. As for a living world, who the Hell is going to advance the events except for characters in the novels? It's not like Lisa Smeldman said "I want to kill every Drow God but Lolth and Elistraea." The changes were mandated by WOTC and then they created a novel for it. Also I want to see changes to the FR also, but I would rather them be graduel, rational, and keep the Realms mythology intact. I like it this way so that the PCs can actualy get involved in the world and that DMs can incorporate those changes better. This keep campaigns close to the baseline so that it is easier for new people( new gamers and old gamers) to join a FR games. I understand your point. And agree with it, I just think we disagree in the excution of it. The Realms "Mythology" is dictated by its developers, including Ed Greenwood. You know what? 2E was abyssmal. Xvim was a pretty crappy LE god, Shar wasn't nearly as intimidating, Cyric was repeatedly made out to be a joke, and Talos was a nonenity. The Realms was sustained, largely, by a Black Skinned Ranger with a panther and Arabic weaponry. Yet when people announced changes for the Realms, you'd think they'd killed Christ. 3E was awesome and I *LOVED* the changes to Cormyr with Alusair replacing dear old Dad. The changes to make Cormyr more threatening resulted in 3 of the best novels in Realms history. I'm going to wait to see how 4E is before passing judgement. Let's face it, in order to make $$$ then WOTC must make enough changes every edition (that they have to make whether the system is servicible or not) that it justifies coming out with a whole string of new books every time it happens. That's why you might have something random like Chesstnea is taken over by an undead Lich God or Murholrandi is overrun with a Horde of Devils from the Abyss in the future or so on. Because it justifies a new book. That's just the nature of the Beast. If you want an unchanging setting, you need either a Dead but Detailed one or one that's relatively new (Eberron). It's just how it works. You're free to not like it, because it does sorta suck. However, it can't be changed.
Stigger 10-10-07, 07:03 AM	I don't think anyone is advocating a static setting, simply one that changes slowly and that evolves at a reasonable pace. It's being treated as if every single year the world goes through radical changes... which given the communications and general societal structure is about as unplausible as saying our world doesn't change year by year, month by month at times. Life is just much more slowly paced in most respects, and while innovation is certainly a good thing, if one looks at it from a 'realistic' perspective as best we understand it, if a society like Faerun's underwent the radical changes it has in such a short period, radical societal unravelling and instability would likely result, and very little of it could actually be sustained in much of a recognizable form from what we know it as. Which is pretty much what they're doing to, and have said as much. Now my question there is how is that still going to be the same Realms we know and love? Simple answer is that it isn't the same Realms, and for all intents and purposes its a different setting with the same maps. And if it isn't, then its so unplausible as to be absurd. As to it being Richard Baker, my question is so what? If he's buying into that whole Mystra and her Chosen are so overpowered that they need to be destroyed, then I'm of the opinion that he's missing the point and needs to go back and read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar from the FRCS, and perhaps take it to heart. If they said that they simply wanted to restart the Realms with a blank slate, because they felt it was the best thing to do, I could live with that. But to say that x, y, and z are broken and that they have no choice but to wipe it all out just strikes me as about a big a fallacy as one could put out there, and very much diminishes my ability to respect, much less trust them in their plans for the new edition Realms. And if that really is the reasoning behind it, then I've lost even more respect and trust, because they just don't understand the setting they're supposed to be developing.
Lord Karsus 10-10-07, 08:52 AM	As to it being Richard Baker, my question is so what? If he's buying into that whole Mystra and her Chosen are so overpowered that they need to be destroyed, then I'm of the opinion that he's missing the point and needs to go back and read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar from the FRCS, and perhaps take it to heart. -I wonder who wrote that...
Stigger 10-10-07, 07:08 PM	I'm wondering that myself... apparently no one who's working on 4e Realms. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-10-07, 09:11 PM	I agree that the developers are changing the Realms around in the manner that they are because they want to, not because they are somehow being "forced" to. Not saying that's good or bad, but it is the most likely explanation.
Lord Karsus 10-11-07, 11:42 PM	I'm wondering that myself... apparently no one who's working on 4e Realms. :D -How ironic would it be if Richard Baker wrote that, or whomever is taking blame for whats going on nowadays?
Mula 10-12-07, 12:34 AM	Actually, The Concerns of the Mighty sidebar on page 84 in FRCS doesn’t address the issue of very powerful good NPCs and their actions during RSEs (the stuff that happens in many mid to high level FR campaigns). What would the Chosen of Mystra do when the combined forces of, say, Shar and the illithid of Oryndoll plot to destroy Waterdeep? Let the PCs handle it? How would you personally, as the DM, play these powerful characters who’d most certainly oppose the destruction of Waterdeep? Let’s say the PCs were level 15, so clearly below the level of the Chosen. (The main issue I’m seeing is that you have to take into account the actions of several good NPCs whose power clearly outshines the PCs’ abilities.)
SgtAnjay 10-12-07, 10:04 AM	Actually, The Concerns of the Mighty sidebar on page 84 in FRCS doesn’t address the issue of very powerful good NPCs and their actions during RSEs (the stuff that happens in many mid to high level FR campaigns). What would the Chosen of Mystra do when the combined forces of, say, Shar and the illithid of Oryndoll plot to destroy Waterdeep? Let the PCs handle it? How would you personally, as the DM, play these powerful characters who’d most certainly oppose the destruction of Waterdeep? Let’s say the PCs were level 15, so clearly below the level of the Chosen. (The main issue I’m seeing is that you have to take into account the actions of several good NPCs whose power clearly outshines the PCs’ abilities.) Actually, you dont have to account for them, unless your PCs go looking for the NPCs to solve their problems for them. Otherwise, just dont bother to bring them up at all. If they do go searching for them.....well, the problem isn't really the NPCs, is it? But fact of the matter is there are way more threats to Faerun or Waterdeep than Shar or the illithid. Anything from a planar conflict to a (simultaneous and unrelated) drow invasion to actions by the Twisted Rune or movings by the Iron Throne or Knights of the Shield or even just a family reunion could keep any particular NPC(s) occupied at any given time. All the PCs have to know, though, is that they're the ones there and able to fight off the threat. Everything else is just backdrop. In fact, that's one effective way to combat resentment of mighty NPCs....the PCs were there, the NPCs were busy, so now the people cheer the PCs and are like "fat lot of good you did us this time" at the vaunted NPCs. So while the NPCs may be "stronger" (though of course the DM can modify that at a whim), the people see the PCs are truer heros because they're more reliable. It really isn't that hard, people.
Alediran 10-12-07, 10:46 AM	That's why rpgs should only be played by people with imagination and common sense.
Keahi19 10-12-07, 11:11 AM	Good point. Very good point.
MaskedOne 10-12-07, 11:35 AM	Actually, The Concerns of the Mighty sidebar on page 84 in FRCS doesn’t address the issue of very powerful good NPCs and their actions during RSEs (the stuff that happens in many mid to high level FR campaigns). What would the Chosen of Mystra do when the combined forces of, say, Shar and the illithid of Oryndoll plot to destroy Waterdeep? Let the PCs handle it? How would you personally, as the DM, play these powerful characters who’d most certainly oppose the destruction of Waterdeep? Let’s say the PCs were level 15, so clearly below the level of the Chosen. (The main issue I’m seeing is that you have to take into account the actions of several good NPCs whose power clearly outshines the PCs’ abilities.) Shrug, the mythal below Waterdeep was damaged or corrupted by agents unknown. Alustriel and Laeral are assessing it and preparing countermeasures. El is tracking the responsible parties and the Simbul is containing any massive threat to the Silver Marches, Aglarond or the Heartlands with Srinshee as reserve arcane might wherever she may be needed. The army marching on Waterdeep is your problem due the imminent and utter destruction of the city if the harm to the mythal is not checked. There goes the major arcane players of the Chosen with the efforts of one Epic spellcaster and I'm presuming that El and Alustriel are actually free to move as described. Determining how precisely to insure that the mythals corruption/ damage is so great is the DM's problem.
Alediran 10-12-07, 11:38 AM	Shrug, the mythal below Waterdeep was damaged or corrupted by agents unknown. Alustriel and Laeral are assessing it and preparing countermeasures. El is tracking the responsible parties and the Simbul is containing any massive threat to the Silver Marches, Aglarond or the Heartlands with Srinshee as reserve arcane might wherever she may be needed. The army marching on Waterdeep is your problem due the imminent and utter destruction of the city if the harm to the mythal is not checked. There goes the major arcane players of the Chosen with the efforts of one Epic spellcaster and I'm presuming that El and Alustriel are actually free to move as described. Determining how precisely to insure that the mythals corruption/ damage is so great is the DM's problem. This shows how true my last post was. In the first chapter of my campaign (in the Silver Marches), when the players discovered the danger of a Sharran cell the first thing that Alustriel did was to call the most powerful spellcasters of the marches so they would be prepared to counter the threat to the Mythal the Sharrans represented.
Bluenose 10-12-07, 12:56 PM	Shrug, the mythal below Waterdeep was damaged or corrupted by agents unknown. Alustriel and Laeral are assessing it and preparing countermeasures. El is tracking the responsible parties and the Simbul is containing any massive threat to the Silver Marches, Aglarond or the Heartlands with Srinshee as reserve arcane might wherever she may be needed. The army marching on Waterdeep is your problem due the imminent and utter destruction of the city if the harm to the mythal is not checked. There goes the major arcane players of the Chosen with the efforts of one Epic spellcaster and I'm presuming that El and Alustriel are actually free to move as described. Determining how precisely to insure that the mythals corruption/ damage is so great is the DM's problem. Maskar Wands, whatshisname the Dragonmage and others are high enough level to cast wish, Peirgeiron is a 20th level paladin, Force Grey are not exactly low level, the Watchful Order of Magists aren't totally useless, the head of the church of Selune is a 16th level cleric, etc. Actually all you need to do is read Blackstaff and identify the wizards he Khelben gets involved to have an idea of how many of "The Mighty" live in Waterdeep and have to be moved out of the way. The idea that you can get your PCs involved in major events by saying that powerful NPCs are off doing something REALLY important is no more than a sophisticated version of the claim that they don't involve themselves in matters that aren't important.
Puggins 10-12-07, 04:00 PM	Not to sound simplistic, but... couldn't the reason be just "to advance the story?" I know that wouldn't satisfy a lot of people, but important character deaths seldom do. If you read the Harry Potter series you'll encounter deaths in every one of the late books that shift the tone and direction far more than killing Mystra ever would. And don't think that Harry Potter fans were pleased with the deaths- as far back as book 5 you had a death that upset a chunk of folks so much that dozens of websites were set up trying to petition Rowling to bring the character back. Of course, she didn't bring him/her back, and topped herself by a mile the following book. It was not pleasant to see some of your favorite characters die- very few of them in truly heroic fashion, no less. Yet the story advanced, and the books kept on getting better (well, at least most people think so).' So advancing the storyline isn't the most satisfying reason... but it's the most compelling to the authors.
johnkretzer 10-12-07, 04:42 PM	Maskar Wands, whatshisname the Dragonmage and others are high enough level to cast wish, Peirgeiron is a 20th level paladin, Force Grey are not exactly low level, the Watchful Order of Magists aren't totally useless, the head of the church of Selune is a 16th level cleric, etc. Actually all you need to do is read Blackstaff and identify the wizards he Khelben gets involved to have an idea of how many of "The Mighty" live in Waterdeep and have to be moved out of the way. The idea that you can get your PCs involved in major events by saying that powerful NPCs are off doing something REALLY important is no more than a sophisticated version of the claim that they don't involve themselves in matters that aren't important. You are right the Dragonmage is a powerful spellcaster...maybe he is doing something to take over the city in the confusion behind the scene that keeps those powerful people busy....he is evil after all and I think does want to take over the city...
johnkretzer 10-12-07, 04:53 PM	Actually, The Concerns of the Mighty sidebar on page 84 in FRCS doesn’t address the issue of very powerful good NPCs and their actions during RSEs (the stuff that happens in many mid to high level FR campaigns). What would the Chosen of Mystra do when the combined forces of, say, Shar and the illithid of Oryndoll plot to destroy Waterdeep? Let the PCs handle it? How would you personally, as the DM, play these powerful characters who’d most certainly oppose the destruction of Waterdeep? Let’s say the PCs were level 15, so clearly below the level of the Chosen. (The main issue I’m seeing is that you have to take into account the actions of several good NPCs whose power clearly outshines the PCs’ abilities.) While you could distract them with many things like that has already been posted...or you could deal with it this way... Sure they are involved and are fighting other elements in this attack that are currently beyond the PCs ability to deal with. But the PCs have a important in this because they can find out about it first and raise the alarm, they can be asked to by these powerful NPCs to do something to help...IE in other words share the spotlight. Or they could simply be fighting to save a district from harm that the higher level NPCs can't deal with because they have to fend off personal attacks on them selves. Also the bad guys can take this into account and use plot device object # 23 to neutrailize these NPCs...then oh my god it would be up to the PCs to rescue these high level NPCs.. Whatever you are having the PCs do it will be important because it is what you should focus on. So what if the PCs help them rescue the city atleast they did something. Or just another way to do this is to stage the attack while the Choosen are all dealing with something in a novel... Or just have Mystra call in a meeting of choosen...She knows that the PCs are there to stop the attack and have her faith inthat they will succeed...wow having the faith of a goddess is just so unimportant I guess... Sorry for the ideas I rattled off but it just seems to me the problem is people just don't try. It just seems so lazy to me. If you don't want to have them involved don't mention them...if you have too then take the extra step to account for them.
Jarred_Garrison 10-12-07, 07:58 PM	How convincing do you find these reasons? Not at all, as others have said.
Mula 10-14-07, 12:15 AM	While you could distract them with many things like that has already been posted...or you could deal with it this way...But I think it's clear that some form of problem does exist. With Eberron (no active powerful good NPCs) you don't have to worry about the actions of a dozen (or worst case, dozens!) NPC allies who are more powerful than the PCs and can very easily hog the spotlight. Wouldn't the PCs want to deal with the BBEG, instead of watching the NPC allies do it? If the Chosen and other top tier good NPCs had levels and/or CRs around 12-20, I'd be happy. :)
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 01:14 AM	But I think it's clear that some form of problem does exist. With Eberron (no active powerful good NPCs) you don't have to worry about the actions of a dozen (or worst case, dozens!) NPC allies who are more powerful than the PCs and can very easily hog the spotlight. Wouldn't the PCs want to deal with the BBEG, instead of watching the NPC allies do it? What you call a problem I would call depth. Also please note that one of my examples had the PCs rescueing the high and powerful. They are choosen that can be exploited as a weakness too you know. I think ignoring them is a mistake personaly...having them there to me(almost always in the background) make the world feel more real. I dislike that PCs are the only hope line. Also I have said this before who is more a hero...somebody who saves the world(and by a large extension thenselves) or somebody who saves the little girl kidnapped at really no gain to themselves. Also I can gurantee that the little girl and her family will look upon their saviors as bigger heroes. And lastly before I talk about the illusion that Eberron is a low level world. I run characters for a long time...we actualy gain levels where we rival them in power. It might be coloring my perception a little bit because in our game to some of out old characters they are moree like cooleagues and equals. While Eberron is new and avioded a mistake that the Realms had(level creep). But it is still there. It has been stated in Eberron that the average Valnar Warrior in the army is a 5th level Ranger...why haven't they conquered the continent yet...? Or why should first level adventures adventure there if a simple patrol is better for the job? Also while it doesn't state that the average level of the Droam army is 5th level...they have been called the equal of the Valanar... Aundair strength was it's magic...but for that to have a real factor they will need a lot of mid-to high level wizards running about. Etc. It does exist in Eberron and will become more obvious in the years to come as people look at and ask but how can this work with the mechanics of the system. Just right now they say it isn't. If the Chosen and other top tier good NPCs had levels and/or CRs around 12-20, I'd be happy. :) I always thought the worst idea was to stat block NPCs personaly. Though your answear for what you want is very simple just make them CR 12-20. The WotC Secret Police won't came kicking down your door and make you run them as 25th level NPCs you know.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 01:22 AM	Actually, the 5th level thing doesn't exist for either of them. The indications are that the majority of Valenar are 2nd level warriors just like the rest of the setting (and not even fighters). Overall, I can't say I'm particularly pleased with getting rid Khelben or Laeral because both of them are amongst the most interesting and useful NPCs in Waterdeep. Hell, I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that we never got to develop Piergeiron or his daughter in 30 years of existence in the Realms. What about the Moonstars? Will they still exist in 100 years without Khelben, the reason for their existence? I mean, Sylune is dead, that's sad but she was supposed to be anyway. But Laeral of all people? I mean, I love Dove and Storm but why kill the politician amongst them! Storm at least is the Harper lass.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 02:12 AM	Actually, the 5th level thing doesn't exist for either of them. The indications are that the majority of Valenar are 2nd level warriors just like the rest of the setting (and not even fighters). That counters this Dragonshard... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041011a Curious where did you get you indication...not doubting them just so I can look at them myself.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 02:52 AM	Actually, that says "Veteran" Valenar and 4th level to 6th. But I suppose you could be rounding. Most Valenar aren't veterans even if they're the most feared army in Khorvaire. Besides, theri skill kinda means nothing against the Hordes of 4HD undead that Karrnath fields.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 03:08 AM	Actually, that says "Veteran" Valenar and 4th level to 6th. But I suppose you could be rounding. Most Valenar aren't veterans even if they're the most feared army in Khorvaire. Besides, theri skill kinda means nothing against the Hordes of 4HD undead that Karrnath fields. Actualy I figured for a warrior culture like theirs I would figure atleast half their forces could be veterans. Ok so how can the armies of Khovaire stop the undead 4 HD armies of Karnath? If the highest skill army can't? I think any campaign setting would be better off with things like level of NPCs being controled by the DM. That way I could be happy with having high level NPCs and those who want there to be no high level competion for the PCs can be happy too.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 03:41 AM	And that's because the neighboring army to Karrnath is Thrane. You know, Cleric land. Aundair has its horde of wizards too. Breland...well Breland just has hordes and hordes of soldiers and money.
Puggins 10-14-07, 11:50 AM	Actualy I figured for a warrior culture like theirs I would figure atleast half their forces could be veterans. That sorta flies in the face of historical warfare. "Veteran" companies weren't really just veterans- they were elite units that were kept at well above full strength, were the best supplied troops int he field and generally performed better than your average unit. In World War II the SS divisions qualified as veteran, and less than one division in ten were SS divisions (before the end of the war, when Hitler started naming every unit and their sister "SS blah blah". Units like that in more ancient warfare (the Persian Immortals, Napoleon's Veterans and the like) were even rarer. Valenar probably has a few of those veteran companies, but I'd say one in ten to fifteen would be appropriate, certainly not one in two. I think any campaign setting would be better off with things like level of NPCs being controled by the DM. That way I could be happy with having high level NPCs and those who want there to be no high level competion for the PCs can be happy too. Well, that's obvious, isn't it? The DM always has final say, but that doesn't change the fact that WotC has to assign a level to each NPC as a baseline.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 01:23 PM	That sorta flies in the face of historical warfare. "Veteran" companies weren't really just veterans- they were elite units that were kept at well above full strength, were the best supplied troops int he field and generally performed better than your average unit. In World War II the SS divisions qualified as veteran, and less than one division in ten were SS divisions (before the end of the war, when Hitler started naming every unit and their sister "SS blah blah". Units like that in more ancient warfare (the Persian Immortals, Napoleon's Veterans and the like) were even rarer. Valenar probably has a few of those veteran companies, but I'd say one in ten to fifteen would be appropriate, certainly not one in two. I disagree it would be that small. Also I disagree on your defination of elite and veteran units. Also the SS wasn't all elite units. Those were the units who stay back and ran the concentration camps and stayed behind the lines and shot deserters. Hardly the task you use your elite fighters. Well, that's obvious, isn't it? The DM always has final say, but that doesn't change the fact that WotC has to assign a level to each NPC as a baseline. Which was the mistake on WotC part. Personaly I never casred for their stat blocks. Also if it is so obvious why did people complain?
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 01:26 PM	And that's because the neighboring army to Karrnath is Thrane. You know, Cleric land. Aundair has its horde of wizards too. Breland...well Breland just has hordes and hordes of soldiers and money. Sure which seems to me that the rarity of PC classes that they say is just a illusion... It exists because they say it does. Which is the problem.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 02:18 PM	Maybe. Of course, I never liked the rarity to begin with.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 02:53 PM	Maybe. Of course, I never liked the rarity to begin with. I never did either which is why it doesn't exist in my Eberron. The point is though the design philosphy of setting is at fault here. They should leave alot more up to the DMs and players...especialy stats and such. For instnace if you don't run campaigns past lets say 10th level...then there is alot of NPCs that become overstated....do you really need Mansoon's stats? Personaly I think they didn't need to change a damn thing just leave things up to the DMs and players.
Puggins 10-14-07, 06:20 PM	I disagree it would be that small. Also I disagree on your defination of elite and veteran units. Well, of course you could disagree with me. In your campaign, feel free to make half of the elf army 5th level rangers. The definition of "Veteran" units is not "a unit that's fought a few times before." It's "an elite unit that's substantially better than a standard unit." Again, you can feel free to use your definition, but the vast majority of the wargaming community uses the definition I laid out. You don't get "veteran" units by having them take part in combat. You get a veteran unit or two among your entire army. Also the SS wasn't all elite units. Those were the units who stay back and ran the concentration camps and stayed behind the lines and shot deserters. Hardly the task you use your elite fighters. Well, sorry, but... DUH. Spare me the attempted history lecture until you can tell the difference between Waffen, Allegmaine and Death's Head SS units. Of course I meant the Waffen-SS, which was the only one that took part in standard warfare. Which was the mistake on WotC part. Personaly I never casred for their stat blocks. Also if it is so obvious why did people complain? Complain about what? That WotC didn't stat their units?
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 10:58 PM	Well, of course you could disagree with me. In your campaign, feel free to make half of the elf army 5th level rangers. The definition of "Veteran" units is not "a unit that's fought a few times before." It's "an elite unit that's substantially better than a standard unit." Again, you can feel free to use your definition, but the vast majority of the wargaming community uses the definition I laid out. You don't get "veteran" units by having them take part in combat. You get a veteran unit or two among your entire army. Sorry for actualy using real military jargon. My mistake. You do know a veteran unit is used to described a unit that has survived a certain number of actions. A elite unit (such as special forces) are called elite units because od intense special training. Well, sorry, but... DUH. Spare me the attempted history lecture until you can tell the difference between Waffen, Allegmaine and Death's Head SS units. Of course I meant the Waffen-SS, which was the only one that took part in standard warfare. Gee with your wargaming defination of a veteran unit( which isn't even true for all wargames atleast I have played a few where veteran units are those who survived a few fights and become expierenced) I was just try to make it clear what you were saying. Perhaps you can aviod the history lecture if you were clearer to start with. Complain about what? That WotC didn't stat their units? I'll admit this was me being less then clear. If WotC didn't stat NPCs and left it up to the DM then they wouldn't get these complaints of over powering NPCs would be reduced...they would still have them because of the novels.
Mr_Miscellany 10-14-07, 11:17 PM	I'm reposting from the Realms-L mailing list. The comments made by Malkor the Mad (particularly the last paragraph) are germane to this discussion, I think. That's a very, very good point. If the Chosen and Mystra are deemed too powerful by players then that's the individual DM's problem. I've been running campaigns in the Realms since the original 1e Grey Box was released with two completely different gaming groups. Never once did anyone ever think that, A) Elminster and company were too powerful, B) That Elminster and company would save them if things went down hill, or C) That Elminster and company were the only ones capable of handling Big Bad Evil People. Any of my games that were set in or passed through the Dalelands meant the characters heard about Elminster and company, but rarely did they meet them. In one campaign in which the Zhents invaded the Dales Elminster was away on a planar jaunt, and other Chosen from the area or the Knights of Myth Drannor had other things occupying them either in other parts of the Dales or even the world. I never once considered using any of them as "backups" or to save the PCs. One thing that really made this whole "kill Mystra" thing hit a nerve for me was when my wife said that if we were still playing an older campaign and it was set during the time Mystra dies and the Weave is destroyed, she would have to stop playing her Wizard because her Wizard was such a devotee of Mystra that her death and the destruction of the Weave would literally drive her character insane and possibly force the character to commit suicide. Ultimately, my wife said, that means that Wizards would be *forcing* her to create a new character because no logical outcome works for that character other than insanity and possible suicide. A link to that full discussion archive can be found here (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0710B&L=REALMS-L&D=0&I=-3&P=9673). :)
Puggins 10-15-07, 11:22 AM	Sorry for actualy using real military jargon. My mistake. You do know a veteran unit is used to described a unit that has survived a certain number of actions. A elite unit (such as special forces) are called elite units because od intense special training. Let's just table this particular disagreement- No one's semantics are any more right, and we're going in circles. Suffice it to say that no, Valenar cavalry units are not composed of huge numbers of 5th level rangers or fighters. I'll admit this was me being less then clear. If WotC didn't stat NPCs and left it up to the DM then they wouldn't get these complaints of over powering NPCs would be reduced...they would still have them because of the novels. Let's be honest- this wouldn't fly. Customers WANT the crunch, especially for the really powerful movers and shakers. It's why Tiamat was used as a preview stat block for both the 1e -> 2e conversion and the 2e -> 3e conversion. How many PCs ever get to fight Tiamat? And yet she keeps getting stated out for each edition, because people want the stats, even though DMs can always slide the scale. Wizards is giving the public what the public wants, and so has to confront the issue of where to put the ultra-powerful levelwise.
Urlithani 10-15-07, 02:54 PM	Mystra always dies. She's the Jean Grey of Faerűn. I have to say that I think Mystra fans would be more upset if she didn't die and was only given token coverage in 4E, pushed aside to give other gods a spot in the limelight. Mystra should have died like Scarface kinda. Bust into Cyric's realm, tired of his crap, guns blazing, etc. Then she gets ambushed by Shar right when she's about to off Cyric. That would have been a better way to go than being offed in Dweomerheart. Yeah, Scarface wasn't on the offensive, but you get the idea. It would have been cooler. Anyway, I am actually excited about 4E FRCS. There is a lot I love and will always love about the Realms through 2nd and 3E. 4E is a chance to focus on and develop things that were not covered as much as Mystra and the Chosen were. After all, how will you ever know if you like any of the other 50+ Faerunian deities if 4E goes on about Mystra and the Chosen again? Give it a chance. Besides, if you don't like it, in 2 years there will be a module where your adventuring parties between 27-30th level will embark on an epic adventure to find an artifact that will restore order to the world by reforming the goddess of magic. For $34.99. P.S. I'm objective and indifferent about Mystra. As a Selűne fanboy, I can say I'd really really like to see which deities will be given a whole new life in 4E. I don't care if they cover Selűne or not because I feel 3E was the right time for that(Strange that 3E was all about Shar and did little to cover her bright sister).
johnkretzer 10-15-07, 04:11 PM	Let's just table this particular disagreement- No one's semantics are any more right, and we're going in circles. Suffice it to say that no, Valenar cavalry units are not composed of huge numbers of 5th level rangers or fighters. Sorry not in their warrior culture because that is all they do. They have human serfs to grow food and stuff....also they are still fighting. Also you seem to forget tha elves live a great deel longer than humens. Though if you want to continue this discussion let move it to the Eberron Board. Let's be honest- this wouldn't fly. Customers WANT the crunch, especially for the really powerful movers and shakers. It's why Tiamat was used as a preview stat block for both the 1e -> 2e conversion and the 2e -> 3e conversion. How many PCs ever get to fight Tiamat? And yet she keeps getting stated out for each edition, because people want the stats, even though DMs can always slide the scale. Wizards is giving the public what the public wants, and so has to confront the issue of where to put the ultra-powerful levelwise. I really don't think is true. It is not the what the fans want. It is what they use as page filler. One of the most popular books for FR in 3.x was Powers of Faerun. Which people say they liked because of the fluff not the stat blocks. Also I know atleast six PC who are always fighting Tiamat...;) But seriously in the life time of the game...propably a couple of hundred thousands.
Puggins 10-15-07, 10:53 PM	Sorry not in their warrior culture because that is all they do. They have human serfs to grow food and stuff....also they are still fighting. Also you seem to forget tha elves live a great deel longer than humens. Though if you want to continue this discussion let move it to the Eberron Board. Like I said, we're going in circles. I really don't think is true. It is not the what the fans want. It is what they use as page filler. One of the most popular books for FR in 3.x was Powers of Faerun. Which people say they liked because of the fluff not the stat blocks. It's #5 in Amazon for the forgotten Realms, despite being one of the most recent non-adventure books. Crunch sells. If it didn't, you wouldn't see umpteen "Complete" books come out.
Lord Karsus 10-15-07, 11:43 PM	If it didn't, you wouldn't see umpteen "Complete" books come out. -In truth, 'Generic' D&D- which the "Complete" books belong to- really isn't anything more than 'crunch'. It really is just the ruleset itself, with some basic Greyhawk thrown in for wobby support. -As I've said in the past, the optimum recipe is something like 75% 'fluff' and 25% 'crunch'.
johnkretzer 10-16-07, 12:54 AM	Like I said, we're going in circles. It's #5 in Amazon for the forgotten Realms, despite being one of the most recent non-adventure books. Crunch sells. If it didn't, you wouldn't see umpteen "Complete" books come out. Comparing a setting book vs a generic rule book is hardly fair as more people are likely to buy it... So what was 1-4 on the list?
johnkretzer 10-16-07, 01:10 AM	Comparing a setting book vs a generic rule book is hardly fair as more people are likely to buy it... So what was 1-4 on the list? I just checked it myself...figure I'll save you the time. And I got to say I was wrong it isn't even on the list. Though I don't know where you got #5 from. But it is interesting to point out the top 5 I think anyway... 5:Is the FRCS which is mostly fluff 4:The Waterdeep book again mostly fluff 3: Player's Guide to Faerun which I'll admitt it is heavy on the crunch...thougn some nice bits of fluff. 2:Lost Empires of Faerun...mostly fluff 1:GHotR...which is all fluff. Now admittly I am unskilled at navigating Amazon so I might be looking at the wrong bestsellers list. So if some wants to confirm this it will be appreciated. Also it seems that you are wrong(If we can use internet. sells as indication, personaly I dislike big bookstores and internet stores like these..) FR fans want fluff. Also I didn't see the Orc King up there...though again it might be I was looking at the wrong section, though there was novels on the list...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 11:21 AM	=So advancing the storyline isn't the most satisfying reason... but it's the most compelling to the authors. Too bad they can't make all these deaths feel less arbitrary. Ever now and then a character death is expected, but when so many happen around the same time, it doesn't feel like natural story progression anymore.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 11:29 AM	. I think ignoring them is a mistake personaly...having them there to me(almost always in the background) make the world feel more real. I dislike that PCs are the only hope line. Me too. That line is from the "It's all about me! Me! ME!" School of Thought (which the folks at WotC seem to be catering to). People aren't born heroes, and your level 1 PCs aren't the first adventurers who have ever existed. Other people have gone before them and have accomplished more (thanks to age if nothing else), and someone had to have been keeping the world running before they came on the scene. Why should the PCs be the only ones in the world to have (and obtain) great power? Granted, I understand that cuts both ways, but it's still true. The FR setting is a world, not just scenery.
Derren S. 10-17-07, 11:54 AM	Actually, you dont have to account for them, unless your PCs go looking for the NPCs to solve their problems for them. Otherwise, just dont bother to bring them up at all. If they do go searching for them.....well, the problem isn't really the NPCs, is it? But fact of the matter is there are way more threats to Faerun or Waterdeep than Shar or the illithid. Anything from a planar conflict to a (simultaneous and unrelated) drow invasion to actions by the Twisted Rune or movings by the Iron Throne or Knights of the Shield or even just a family reunion could keep any particular NPC(s) occupied at any given time. All the PCs have to know, though, is that they're the ones there and able to fight off the threat. Everything else is just backdrop. In fact, that's one effective way to combat resentment of mighty NPCs....the PCs were there, the NPCs were busy, so now the people cheer the PCs and are like "fat lot of good you did us this time" at the vaunted NPCs. So while the NPCs may be "stronger" (though of course the DM can modify that at a whim), the people see the PCs are truer heros because they're more reliable. It really isn't that hard, people. Someone might have adressed this already but I also want to comment on this. What you are saying basically confirms what Rich said about authors having to account for the chosen when something big happens. And after a time it get unbelievable that whenever the PCs have an adventure a big epic villian threatens the realms (or area the PCs are in) and demands the attention of all higher level NPCs in the area. And it is also unbelievable to simply disregard the chosen/high level NPCs Many of them have a good alignment and would stop evil plots (especially when it threatens an area they live in ore one of their many allies). Besides when you completely ignore them and their personalities in your games (which always leaves a bad taste) why does it matter to you if they are now officially killed? It doesn't affect your game at all.
Alediran 10-17-07, 12:01 PM	What you are saying basically confirms what Rich said about authors having to account for the chosen when something big happens. And after a time it get unbelievable that whenever the PCs have an adventure a big epic villian threatens the realms (or area the PCs are in) and demands the attention of all higher level NPCs in the area. That in itself is not a problem. Ed Greenwood did an excellent job when he wrote "Tears so White", which happened during the LMT. And it is also unbelievable to simply disregard the chosen/high level NPCs Many of them have a good alignment and would stop evil plots (especially when it threatens an area they live in ore one of their many allies). It's not unbelievable if the players don't ask about them. And if they ask them you should have a reason thought before. Maybe they are testing you, seeing if you can become a great hero that someday would be a viable option to replace them. Besides when you completely ignore them and their personalities in your games (which always leaves a bad taste) why does it matter to you if they are now officially killed? It doesn't affect your game at all. There is a difference between unseen and nonexistent, the former option allows the DM to use them if they are good for the story while the latter means that if I wanted to use him and I want to be consistent with the cannon then that option was cut because that NPC no longer exists. And it affects a game when said NPC had an important role in the history of your player's characters. What if one of them was an apprentice of The Blackstaff and one day the DM says him that his dear master doesn't exists anymore?
Derren S. 10-17-07, 12:12 PM	It's not unbelievable if the players don't ask about them. And if they ask them you should have a reason thought before. Maybe they are testing you, seeing if you can become a great hero that someday would be a viable option to replace them. If the players don't ask then they do not care. Or maybe they don't ask because they don't want to spoil "their" adventure? Either the super NPC comes and solves the problem (boring), has to do some other world saving thing (laughable after a time) or doesn't want to stop the evil the PCs are after (unbelievable because against the character). As I said, some players don't care, but those players also don't care if the NPC lives or not. But some players do care that according to official realms lore they would be unable to have any big adventure on their own. And it affects a game when said NPC had an important role in the history of your player's characters. What if one of them was an apprentice of The Blackstaff and one day the DM says him that his dear master doesn't exists anymore? Bad example as Blackstaff was already killed. But you have to move on, master don't stay alive forever. And don't tell me that the death of someones master, especially a so famous one, makes it impossible to have an interesting story. Besides how many players are there which have the chosen appear in their backstory? Certanly a lot less compared to players who do complain that the chosen, logically, would solve the adventure for them and therefor the whole adventure seems very contrived to them.
Alediran 10-17-07, 12:24 PM	If the players don't ask then they do not care. Or maybe they don't ask because they don't want to spoil "their" adventure? Either the super NPC comes and solves the problem (boring), has to do some other world saving thing (laughable after a time) or doesn't want to stop the evil the PCs are after (unbelievable because against the character). As I said, some players don't care, but those players also don't care if the NPC lives or not. But some players do care that according to official realms lore they would be unable to have any big adventure on their own. If you were Elminster would you care about a horde of orcs trying to conquer the Spine of the World? Or if you were The Symbul, would you care about the drow who infiltrated Halruaa? Or does Alustriel grabs her backpack every time any threat arises to the North? There are problems for low lvl characters, problems for mid lvl characters, problems for high lvl characters and problems for epic lvl characters. A low lvl character shouldn't expect to defeat a mid, or higher, lvl problem, while an epic lvl character wouldn't bother with a low lvl problem, that is why they trained young adventurers. Looks at NWN: SoU, you are a 1st lvl character who gets trained by a powerful and experienced dwarf cleric/wizard/mystic theurgee. One day a horde of kobolds attacks his house and poison him. He becomes unable to deal with an adventure and asks you to do it. Bad example as Blackstaff was already killed. But you have to move on, master don't stay alive forever. And don't tell me that the death of someones master, especially a so famous one, makes it impossible to have an interesting story. Besides how many players are there which have the chosen appear in their backstory? Certanly a lot less compared to players who do complain that the chosen, logically, would solve the adventure for them and therefor the whole adventure seems very contrived to them. It's just one of almost infinite examples I could give. What would you do if you played a cleric of Helm and suddenly he doesn't exists any more?
Derren S. 10-17-07, 12:44 PM	If you were Elminster would you care about a horde of orcs trying to conquer the Spine of the World? Or if you were The Symbul, would you care about the drow who infiltrated Halruaa? Or does Alustriel grabs her backpack every time any threat arises to the North? Again a bad example. You are just using named characters and link them to a threat on the other side of the world. But wouldn't the dozends (hundereds?) of Halruaan archmages care if someone wants to infiltrate their country? And wouldn't Drizzt care if there is a threat in the North? There are problems for low lvl characters, problems for mid lvl characters, problems for high lvl characters and problems for epic lvl characters. A low lvl character shouldn't expect to defeat a mid, or higher, lvl problem, while an epic lvl character wouldn't bother with a low lvl problem, that is why they trained young adventurers. And there are not only the chosens but other NPCs too, the chosens are just the ones whos names everyone knows (+Drizzt). Wherever you are in the FR there are hundereds of NPCs, of all levels. Why higher the 1st level PCs when the 2nd level NPCs can do the job? Nowhere the PCs go they are really needed. Looks at NWN: SoU, you are a 1st lvl character who gets trained by a powerful and experienced dwarf cleric/wizard/mystic theurgee. One day a horde of kobolds attacks his house and poison him. He becomes unable to deal with an adventure and asks you to do it. Except that a simple casting of neutralize poison or better would solve that problem. Do I assume correctly it was no normal poison but "plot poison"?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 12:53 PM	And it is also unbelievable to simply disregard the chosen/high level NPCs Many of them have a good alignment and would stop evil plots (especially when it threatens an area they live in ore one of their many allies). Besides when you completely ignore them and their personalities in your games (which always leaves a bad taste) why does it matter to you if they are now officially killed? It doesn't affect your game at all. It affects the SETTING, though! Some people care about the Realms as a world, not just scenery for games. At any rate, the Chosen of Mystra can't solve everyone's problems. They are 10 people or so, in a world with millions of other people (and potential evil-doers). Simple math disproves that old canard.
Alediran 10-17-07, 12:58 PM	Again a bad example. You are just using named characters and link them to a threat on the other side of the world. But wouldn't the dozends (hundereds?) of Halruaan archmages care if someone wants to infiltrate their country? And wouldn't Drizzt care if there is a threat in the North? Have you read Counselors & Kings? You should because it demonstrates my point. The greatest problem that the good side has is lack of information. This allows the BBEG to avoid notice 99% of the time. And there are not only the chosens but other NPCs too, the chosens are just the ones whos names everyone knows (+Drizzt). Wherever you are in the FR there are hundereds of NPCs, of all levels. Why higher the 1st level PCs when the 2nd level NPCs can do the job? Nowhere the PCs go they are really needed. That assumption has been debunked so many times that I'll not bother doing it. Yes, they can be many people with more than 1 lvl, those that make them good candidates? Not. Most of them are part of an organization, they train for the day they are needed, the rest of the time they live a normal life. Free agents (like adventurers) aren't as common as trained forces. Not every 2nd lvl fighter wants to go adventuring. Most of them have other concerns. Except that a simple casting of neutralize poison or better would solve that problem. Do I assume correctly it was no normal poison but "plot poison"? It was a magical poison designed by a dragon to resist that spell.
Derren S. 10-17-07, 01:06 PM	Have you read Counselors & Kings? You should because it demonstrates my point. The greatest problem that the good side has is lack of information. This allows the BBEG to avoid notice 99% of the time. And what has this to do with this matter? If "good does not notice" the evil guys then the PCs likely also don't. Or are you saying that to have an adventure in the realms the PCs have to keep their adventure secret so that high level NPCs don't "steal" it? That assumption has been debunked so many times that I'll not bother doing it. Yes, they can be many people with more than 1 lvl, those that make them good candidates? Not. Most of them are part of an organization, they train for the day they are needed, the rest of the time they live a normal life. Free agents (like adventurers) aren't as common as trained forces. Not every 2nd lvl fighter wants to go adventuring. Most of them have other concerns. Defending the place where they life does normally fall under the "other" category. It was a magical poison designed by a dragon to resist that spell. AKA Plot poison.
Alediran 10-17-07, 02:11 PM	And what has this to do with this matter? If "good does not notice" the evil guys then the PCs likely also don't. Or are you saying that to have an adventure in the realms the PCs have to keep their adventure secret so that high level NPCs don't "steal" it? No, it means that most of BBEG plot's discovery occur by accident when an/a (un)lucky group of adventurers stumble one something that conducts them to the BBEG. If those adventurers don't inform about what is happening, then they are completely alone to stop the BBEG.
Stigger 10-17-07, 04:04 PM	Somehow I can't quite imagine Manshoon or Fzoul sending out criers to the streets of Zhentil Keep or Suzail with the announcement that they have some new Evil Plot To Unleash Doom Upon The World, and that they are now accepting applications for the Heroes To Save The Day That They Can Gloat To In A Key Moment role... if you want to stop something or interfere with it, you have to know about it in the first place in order to do that, otherwise its a moot point from the start.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 04:20 PM	In general, I tend to think that a good story does give a reason for the player characters to be the Big heroes. Let's try Die Vecna Die which I'm running this weekend with the old party. Velsharoon uses his powers and the Crown of Horns to absorb Karsus' knowledge and proceeds to capture Mystra's spirit. In other words, the entire UNIVERSE is imperilled by the events. To add weight to the story I've decided to state that all of the Chosen of Mystra have entered a deathly coma thanks to events in the world. The only one whose immune is Elminster whose had to revert to a 1st level Thief/2nd Level Fighter for the duration of the emergency. He sets to the players because Velsharoon has started decimating the magically powerful people in the world and that includes the Chosen Ones of folk like Ilmater (Gareth). The player characters are the only people in the world that Velsharoon is unlikely to notice. Elminster has further consulted with Oghma and Azuth whom agree to bet everything on the players, shielding them from his sight, while the other gods keep Velsharoon distracted. That helped make the situation more believable to them.
Stigger 10-17-07, 04:35 PM	Think we have two very different opinions of what it believeable or plausible... which could perhaps explain why we differ on the possibilities that 4e offers.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 04:39 PM	Well I go with the idea the PCs are starring in a Howard Pulp story. Basically, the adult ancestors of modern day comic books. Wizards are able to warp reality indiscriminately, gods are powerful but not immortal or omniscient, and the PCs are required to save the world. What's your definition of plausible and believable?
Stigger 10-17-07, 04:53 PM	Can't stand Howard, presuming you're referring to the creator of Conan. Don't really care for pulp in general to be honest. Too much deus ex going on there for me to be happy with it. As to plausible and believable and my definitions... I dunno, that depends. Kinda like art, you know it when you see it, but can't really define it per se. I suppose that something that follows a logical chain of events and reasonings behind those events, which is explainable and consistent with the parameters of the world that's been established. My questions to that scenario you tossed out there would be how did Velsharoon use the Crown of Horns to wrest knowledge from Karsus? And why would it matter since Mystra disabled the magic that allowed for such a feat in the first place? How does he pull off that presumable ritual without Mystra noticing him and beating him down before he utters the first syllable? Canon wise, he doesn't, period, given Mystra's divine abilities and powers. You don't screw with her via magic without her knowing about it, the Karsus incident aside, which to be honest was really implausible to begin with. And if he went over to the Shadow Weave, how did he avoid having Shar suck his brain for the knowledge of the spell/ritual/whatever, killing him, and then pulling off the little stunt herself? Just for starters anyway...
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 05:16 PM	Can't stand Howard, presuming you're referring to the creator of Conan. Don't really care for pulp in general to be honest. Too much deus ex going on there for me to be happy with it. Noted. I tend to prefer him over Tolkien, though I amply rip off the idea that a bunch of Hobbits could destroy a Greater God of Evil just by destroying his magic ring. :-) That's my FR in a nutshell. The hobbits can do what Gandalf cannot. My questions to that scenario you tossed out there would be how did Velsharoon use the Crown of Horns to wrest knowledge from Karsus? If my players ask, it'll be essentially Myrkul and he combined their respective knowledges to figure out how to gain access to Karsus memories from his God-Corpse from the Archwizard Trilogy. And why would it matter since Mystra disabled the magic that allowed for such a feat in the first place? If my players ask; Karsus is filled with a fraction of Mystrll's power. Thus, Velsharoon is able to cast the mythical 10th level and above spells that she's forbidden. How does he pull off that presumable ritual without Mystra noticing him and beating him down before he utters the first syllable? Probably the not so subtle hand of Shar protecting Velsharoon and Myrkul's plot from discovery. Of course, I've often considered instituting a rule of "Divine Ineffability" I can do all of my plots without Divine Ineffability saying they cast this spell or that but its just much easier to say everyone doesn't know what the other is doing amongst the gods. I.e. Gods are omniscient about any event that doesn't have a God muddying about the events. Canon wise, he doesn't, period, given Mystra's divine abilities and powers. At least until I create the spell, ritual, artifact, or other factor that renders her divine abilities and powers null in this case. Canonically, there's nothing wrong about this at all and its fairly clear that the abilities she has are fairly often and easilly broken in canon. You don't screw with her via magic without her knowing about it, the Karsus incident aside, which to be honest was really implausible to begin with. That's your preferance, but it doesn't reflect canon. I make it clear to every one of my players. The gods are neither infalliable or invincible. Ultimately, mortals with their free will and nobility will always have a chance against their plots where the gods do not. And if he went over to the Shadow Weave, how did he avoid having Shar suck his brain for the knowledge of the spell/ritual/whatever, killing him, and then pulling off the little stunt herself? Just for starters anyway... Because Shar's not an idiot. Shar wants to destroy the universe. All gods in the world but Talos, perhaps, would descend upon her and annihilate her. That Velsharoon would have the gall to try and takeover reality is just out there enough to take everyone off guard. There's a chance that Velsharoon might destroy the universe in his plot and that's a goal she's happy to endorse, but if he's destroyed in the end then no loss for her. Of course, if I didn't want to use Shar, I'd use the Serpent and say "The Serpent is such an old and mysterious power that all the rules are off when he's involved."
Stigger 10-17-07, 05:29 PM	I suppose... seems a stretch to me personally, but to be honest, I don't much care for plots that involve the gods in the first place. Nor do I much care for the whole meddling fool who can't see their own noses role many of them seem to be shackled with of late. Though I'm in agreement that Tolkien is lacking as well. Not much at all a fan really of 'classic' fantasy literature. Actually prefer non-fiction over most fiction actually...
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 07:31 PM	Yeah, basically, I figure that the Realms are the one setting where the gods are a bunch of jerks. In Dragonlance, even if they're still meddlers, the gods are pretty much epic incarnations of good and evil. Greyhawk, they're aloof and mysterious except for Vecna and Iuz (whom are ex mortals). The manipulations are handled by the Arch-demons instead. Eberron doesn't even have anthromorphized gods.
Stigger 10-17-07, 07:44 PM	Never got the impression that the gods of the Realms were jerks... that certainly wasn't the impression that 2e's Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, or Demihuman Deities left me with... and considering Faiths and Pantheons was pretty much just a pared down copy & paste job of those three. Maybe the novels leave a different impression, but I prefer to avoid those in general since I don't often agree with the various author's portrayals or flavorings.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 07:58 PM	Well, jerks is perhaps too strong of a word but I always stick with the fact those books deal with the gods as religious figures. They're about the gods religions which is different somewhat from the gods themselves. As for the novels, I consider them the primary source for telling FR'S "story"
Stigger 10-17-07, 08:04 PM	Interesting take... I tend to view them more as sketches of the deity and their churches... though I find it difficult to grasp the concept of looking at a deity as anything but a religious figure... that is kinda their purpose really. But then, I don't see them as NPCs in general... that seems to cheapen the idea of the divinity to my mind. But hey, if it works for you... Interesting take on the novels though. I generally consider the DM as the primary source for telling the Realms story... but I'd be firmly in favor of divorcing novels from canon to be honest. As an afterthought, perhaps not necessarily divorced, but certainly scaled a lot more down in favor of a reduced, more local scope than we've seen of late. More focus on specific places that don't necessarily effect more than a small geographic region, at most would be more to my liking.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 09:17 PM	Interesting take... I tend to view them more as sketches of the deity and their churches... though I find it difficult to grasp the concept of looking at a deity as anything but a religious figure... that is kinda their purpose really. But then, I don't see them as NPCs in general... that seems to cheapen the idea of the divinity to my mind. But hey, if it works for you... For me, it's one of the themes of Forgotten Realms that humanism triumphs. The gods are beings that are as flawed as human beings and that's what makes the story better. It makes the gods much more relatable and useful as NPCs. Of course, I happily have gods pop up in FR when in most campaigns, a divine manifestation is cause for weeping on one's knees. In FR, you might have Mask pop in to have a drink with you. Interesting take on the novels though. I generally consider the DM as the primary source for telling the Realms story... but I'd be firmly in favor of divorcing novels from canon to be honest. That's a silly take. I, as the DM, can't tell the Realms stories. Otherwise, you'd all be listening to my adventures about how we saved the universe. The source books can only tell us an exterior view of the Realms and frankly are useless in most respects. You can tell me all you like about Helm but until I see Helm's church in action I don't know what its really like. Frankly, the Sourcebooks are useful but the Novels are much better for showing how FR citizenry live. As an afterthought, perhaps not necessarily divorced, but certainly scaled a lot more down in favor of a reduced, more local scope than we've seen of late. More focus on specific places that don't necessarily effect more than a small geographic region, at most would be more to my liking. I confess, I'm somewhat jaded to large scale Forgotten Realms stories. My favorite Realms stories are probably Arilyn Moonblades ones because they're reasonably low key. The Dreamspheres, finding a Harper assassin, and putting a stop to lumber smuggling. I also liked Thornhold because it's really over a simple magical Siege Engine and a single castle. But my favorite stories after them are The Cormyr novels and the Avatar series.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 09:54 PM	For me, it's one of the themes of Forgotten Realms that humanism triumphs. The gods are beings that are as flawed as human beings and that's what makes the story better. It makes the gods much more relatable and useful as NPCs. For my part, I don't want gods to be too relatable--then they are just people, and no longer gods.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 10:05 PM	They're people....with ultimate power over the universe. ;-)
Derren S. 10-18-07, 04:35 AM	No, it means that most of BBEG plot's discovery occur by accident when an/a (un)lucky group of adventurers stumble one something that conducts them to the BBEG. If those adventurers don't inform about what is happening, then they are completely alone to stop the BBEG. And what would be a sensible thing for good hearted adventurers to do? To warn the one in danger, especially when those people are more powerful than the PCs. are. After all when its such a big/evil/dangerous thing, why not let the "pros" handle it instead of some upstart adventurers? But in D&D this never happens because it would mean that the PCs won't have an adventure. So every time the PCs stumble upon a plot hook they have to keep it secret so no one steals it from them. Not a very good thing to do, but the only way for PCs to have an adventure in the realms. (That and price dumping).
Stigger 10-18-07, 06:49 AM	For me, it's one of the themes of Forgotten Realms that humanism triumphs. The gods are beings that are as flawed as human beings and that's what makes the story better. It makes the gods much more relatable and useful as NPCs. Of course, I happily have gods pop up in FR when in most campaigns, a divine manifestation is cause for weeping on one's knees. In FR, you might have Mask pop in to have a drink with you. Somehow I've never really thought of humanism as being really prevalent in the Realms, at least in the form it took in Europe. I find it next to impossible to divorce the idea of humanism from the Roman Catholic Church, from where they lifted most of their essential ideas in the first place. Sure they got rid of the religious aspects, but in terms of morality and ethics they are fairly close, even if they use radically different justifications for the whys (and other details) of it. Fruit doesn't fall far from the tree and all that muck. Add to that the tangible power of the Deities and their churches and humanism is even less likely. Perhaps a humanism like effect that arises from the competition of various deities for the worshippers could be justified, but the root causes behind it are too different for them to really be all that similar at their core. Perhaps its a bit semantical, but its hard not to be for me where this sort of stuff, considering just how much study I've put into it. <a big edit as I realized I forgot to address something> Personally, I don't want gods who are relatable. I utterly detest the 'Greek' model that seems to have been adopted for the official behaviour of the pantheon, which certainly doesn't mesh well with their sourcebook descritions and depictions in the slightest for me. There's a certain degree of being approachable to some degree, at least as how those old 2e books put it, but relatable and sitting down and having a beer with them just cheapens the very idea of divinity to me. Divinity is not simply some measure of power to me, it should be treated with at least some degree of reverence, otherwise you undercut the very premise that these beings are worthy of your devotion and sacrifice, and bolster you with the strength and resolve to do things you otherwise could not were you simply doing it alone. Why would these deities attract people like paladins, clerics, and the like if they were simply glorified Soap Opera Stars who happened to grant spells? To me, depicting them like spoiled children is insulting and just plain non-sensical considering the profound devotion that a cleric or paladin presumably has. Which is why I absolutely hate the Cyric that we've seen... I can't fathom why anyone would want to serve him with the way he acts... particularly someone with enough of a Wisdom score to make an effective cleric. I'm not even going to go into the other depictions we've seen thus far... that just struck me as bad writing, not bad canon or lore. The lore, I think, treats them with much more respect and dignity than the writing in novels that I'm aware of, yet another reason for me to ignore the novels entirely. </edit> That's a silly take. I, as the DM, can't tell the Realms stories. Otherwise, you'd all be listening to my adventures about how we saved the universe. The source books can only tell us an exterior view of the Realms and frankly are useless in most respects. You can tell me all you like about Helm but until I see Helm's church in action I don't know what its really like. Frankly, the Sourcebooks are useful but the Novels are much better for showing how FR citizenry live. I've never run into that problem myself... that's what the imagination is for as far as I'm concerned. As to the novels showing how the citizenry lives, Volo's guides are a lot more consistent in that respect, as each author seems to bring their own way of creating an analog of slightly skewed European society, rather than actually thinking about how the societies would be different... or at least thats the impression they've always left me with. That and it also comes down to me not caring what the authors think the society should be like, but what I think the society should be like based on what we know of it. I mean c'mon... the general sexual equality alone says that the European model only works to a very limited degree and that a lot of the authors that I've looked at with a couple of exceptions tend to miss that little point and stick too much of "Europe" in there, which doesn't even begin to address the concept of Racism having an utterly different meaning and context... add into that the prevalence of travel, and you end up with a beast that resembles Europe in only the most astoundingly superficial of ways. Certainly a few authors don't fall into that, Steven Schend in particular comes to mind there, but the (limited) ones I've read tend to that I've seen. I just love the stuff he's developed, and Blackstaff was just icing on the cake, even if I am going to ignore its events at home. I confess, I'm somewhat jaded to large scale Forgotten Realms stories. My favorite Realms stories are probably Arilyn Moonblades ones because they're reasonably low key. The Dreamspheres, finding a Harper assassin, and putting a stop to lumber smuggling. I also liked Thornhold because it's really over a simple magical Siege Engine and a single castle. But my favorite stories after them are The Cormyr novels and the Avatar series. I did like the Cormyr series as a story, but to be honest I wasn't all that thrilled with the plot points and tend to ignore it as far as my own campaign's canon goes. About the only novel series I'm tending to treat as actual canon are the Knights of Myth Drannor series, since I've used them in a few campaigns and would like a bit of detail on some of their earlier exploits... other than that, there aren't any that I'd treat as 'absolute' canon, even as far as the events detailed are concerned. Come to think of it, I can't recall ever having considered novels as (home campaign) canon for any RPG I've ever indulged in...
Alediran 10-18-07, 08:38 AM	And what would be a sensible thing for good hearted adventurers to do? To warn the one in danger, especially when those people are more powerful than the PCs. are. After all when its such a big/evil/dangerous thing, why not let the "pros" handle it instead of some upstart adventurers? Because it's a rare party the one that believes they are outmatched by something they stumble upon. Or sometimes the BNGG is testing them to see if they can become another force of good in the world. What would happen if you are the ONLY hero of the world, and for some reason you are defeated/imprisoned/killed, and no one else can resolve this problem because you never allowed anybody else to fight the good fight?
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 11:04 AM	Somehow I've never really thought of humanism as being really prevalent in the Realms, at least in the form it took in Europe. I find it next to impossible to divorce the idea of humanism from the Roman Catholic Church, from where they lifted most of their essential ideas in the first place. Sure they got rid of the religious aspects, but in terms of morality and ethics they are fairly close, even if they use radically different justifications for the whys (and other details) of it. Fruit doesn't fall far from the tree and all that muck. Strangely, Stigger, in a strictly non-canon factor I've always felt that the role of humanism was largely handled by both the Church of Mystra as well as the very Catholic Triad organization. Philosophy is a lot more developed in the Realms than one might think with all the various churches largely adopting one or more for their faiths. The "Traditional" Church of Bane, for example, I have as purveying the principles of Divine Right along with legalism. Fzoul, on the other hand, was experimenting with his heretic sect using a combination of Nietzsche ethics supplemented by trying to introduce Nationalism into the Zhentil Keep folk (something that really is out there as far as society goes). It helped cement his role as a genius to the PCs. For the Church of Mystra, their chief creed for magic is that it is to provide human beings with a tool that will raise them out of the darkness and into the light of civilization. But overall, the majority of humanism in canon is mostly portrayed by the fact that the gods are fairly involved in people's lives but people are not particularly controlled by religion due to the prevailing freedom of worship outside of Banite territories. This mostly leads to a situation where the divine is a supplement to other institutions for motivating people. Personally, I don't want gods who are relatable. I utterly detest the 'Greek' model that seems to have been adopted for the official behaviour of the pantheon, which certainly doesn't mesh well with their sourcebook descritions and depictions in the slightest for me. Obviously, this is the root of our disagreement and my trouble with a lot of other posters (Jkretzer and Rinona for example). Given my early exposure to the Realms was the Avatar Crisis and the subsequent books, the "Greek" portrayal is cemented as a major aspect of the Realms to me. Divinity is not simply some measure of power to me, it should be treated with at least some degree of reverence, otherwise you undercut the very premise that these beings are worthy of your devotion and sacrifice, and bolster you with the strength and resolve to do things you otherwise could not were you simply doing it alone. I think that Artemis Enteri is a great example of a fundamental conflict of the setting. The gods are visible, tangible, and real things. However, a lot of people are disenchanted with them. 80% of the people in the world pay lip service to the gods in hopes of getting through their daily lives with all the various problems. 10% are drawn to the service of one particular god above all others with it really speaking to them the message of one or the other (the genuinely religious). 10% are like Artemis who find the various conflicts, hypocrisies, and battles of the pantheons render them unworthy of worship. Whether it's a conscious decision on their part or they just don't care. In Dragonlance, the people who disregard the gods as beneath contempt are just WRONG. In FR, there's a kind of perverse justice to it. Why would these deities attract people like paladins, clerics, and the like if they were simply glorified Soap Opera Stars who happened to grant spells? To me, depicting them like spoiled children is insulting and just plain non-sensical considering the profound devotion that a cleric or paladin presumably has. As I informed my players, yes the gods seem a trifle silly at times but human beings take them VERY seriously in the same way that human beings take things that are very silly at the time to be deadly serious. Plus, it's always fun that a Priest of Tempus may have a man who is genuinely ectstatic at the glories of his god and the deeper meaning of conflict. But Tempus is a hard drinking, hard brawling, and wenching thundergod type. For me, I think its important to divorce the setting from too much Aristotilian/Abrahamic "white washing" the divine. It exists in my game but it's explicitly WRONG. These are very Norse/Greek/Summerian/Egyptian gods with only a few trying to be more (The triad for example). it's ironic, Eberron has unknowable and vast gods, yet Keith Baker is the guy who said 9/10ths of the Sovereign Hosts priests just exist to minister to people's physical needs because the gods are largely not concerned with morality. Which is why I absolutely hate the Cyric that we've seen... I can't fathom why anyone would want to serve him with the way he acts... particularly someone with enough of a Wisdom score to make an effective cleric. I'm not even going to go into the other depictions we've seen thus far... that just struck me as bad writing, not bad canon or lore. The lore, I think, treats them with much more respect and dignity than the writing in novels that I'm aware of, yet another reason for me to ignore the novels entirely. I'm bitterly disgusted with both the sourcebooks and novels regarding Cyric. For me, he's a vast case of wasted potential. You have a God of Illusion, Murder, Strife, Lies, and Intrigue. That's a tailor made recipe for Loki and Satan all rolled into one with a dash of Emperor Palpatine. However, Lords of Darkness portrays his clergy as pretty much no organization and recruiting anybody whose body is still warm (and even then there's others). At least the novels give Cyric the idea that he "dreams big" but yeah, I had to change him extensively. The players are afraid of my Cyric, he's the god of genius plots that only exist to incite random violence. Like a cosmic Joker. And mostly the novels give me a lot of ready made backdrops for adventures.
SgtAnjay 10-18-07, 01:36 PM	But overall, the majority of humanism in canon is mostly portrayed by the fact that the gods are fairly involved in people's lives but people are not particularly controlled by religion due to the prevailing freedom of worship outside of Banite territories. This mostly leads to a situation where the divine is a supplement to other institutions for motivating people.Except, of course, that that doesn't fit the "Greek" mold the gods are cast in; sure, you can worship who you want, just like the Greeks could. But like the Greeks knew that worship and devotion was the gods' due, and they better give it up or there will be consequences, the people of Faerun know that success, or even just avoiding catastrophe, depends on giving the gods their due. Farming? Give it up to Chauntea if you want good crops. Sailing? Better do what Umberlee wants, and maybe toss in some offerings to Valkur. Are you a smith? Ignoring Gond cause you feel like worshipping someone else is asking for failure; you may possibly have to give to Kossuth, as well, for good measure, and of course it never pays to ignore Waukeen (get it? Pays? Waukeen?) Obviously, this is the root of our disagreement and my trouble with a lot of other posters (Jkretzer and Rinona for example). Given my early exposure to the Realms was the Avatar Crisis and the subsequent books, the "Greek" portrayal is cemented as a major aspect of the Realms to me. Just to toss this in there: In many ways, they [the Realms deities] are like the powers depicted in classical Greek mythology in their all-too-human foibles and contradictory behavior. In general, a good working rule of thumb for the behavior of deities in the Realms is to imagine the actions of powers from all of the myths--Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Indian, Finnish, Norse, Sumerian, Babylonian, Chinese, Japanese, African, and others. If a deity from any myth is spoken of as having once behaved in a similar way, it is appropriate to base a Realms power's actions and behavior in a similar fashion--within the bounds of good taste That's but an excerp. So the sourcebooks themselves uphold the view of the deities being that way. I'm bitterly disgusted with both the sourcebooks and novels regarding Cyric. For me, he's a vast case of wasted potential. You have a God of Illusion, Murder, Strife, Lies, and Intrigue. That's a tailor made recipe for Loki and Satan all rolled into one with a dash of Emperor Palpatine. However, Lords of Darkness portrays his clergy as pretty much no organization and recruiting anybody whose body is still warm (and even then there's others). At least the novels give Cyric the idea that he "dreams big" but yeah, I had to change him extensively. The players are afraid of my Cyric, he's the god of genius plots that only exist to incite random violence. Like a cosmic Joker.Cyric, as a character, isn't his portfolios. He's a formerly mortal consciousness with certain traits and attributes that now happens to possess those portfolios. And that mortal was no Loki, or Satan, nor even an Emperor Palpatine. You seem to want, or expect, something out of him because of his position, not because of who he actually is and has been as a character.
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 02:04 PM	Cyric, as a character, isn't his portfolios. He's a formerly mortal consciousness with certain traits and attributes that now happens to possess those portfolios. And that mortal was no Loki, or Satan, nor even an Emperor Palpatine. You seem to want, or expect, something out of him because of his position, not because of who he actually is and has been as a character. Well spoken and true but what fits my campaigns and my needs for such a character is different from what the Realms might give (and what would be a good use for the character). Sadly, Richard Baker said what he thought of Cyric. As far as how I see Cyric... I guess I see him as a bit of a tool, to be honest. I think Shar provided the real brainpower behind the plot to do in Mystra, and found the perfect accomplice in Cyric. Now, maybe Cyric's clever enough to *let* Shar think he can be manipulated, and he's really playing a deeper game with a longer view--but somehow I don't really think so. I think Cyric is still in his "spoiled brat" phase of deity-hood, and hasn't really learned to think like a deity yet. So overall Shar gets what she wants (no Mystra) and Cyric's the guy who takes the fall (imprisoned in his home plane).
18DELTA 10-18-07, 02:14 PM	Its Living Realms fault! They need to dumb down the setting for the RGPA.:(
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 02:33 PM	:uh-huh:
Puggins 10-18-07, 02:42 PM	I just checked it myself...figure I'll save you the time. And I got to say I was wrong it isn't even on the list. Though I don't know where you got #5 from. But it is interesting to point out the top 5 I think anyway... 5:Is the FRCS which is mostly fluff 4:The Waterdeep book again mostly fluff 3: Player's Guide to Faerun which I'll admitt it is heavy on the crunch...thougn some nice bits of fluff. 2:Lost Empires of Faerun...mostly fluff 1:GHotR...which is all fluff. Now admittly I am unskilled at navigating Amazon so I might be looking at the wrong bestsellers list. So if some wants to confirm this it will be appreciated. Well, your interpretation of what's fluff and what's crunch is fairly subjective. I think that Lost Empire of Faerun is WAY too much crunch and not anywhere NEAR enough fluff for my tastes. Hell, the only fluff they have in the books as far as I'm concerned is a bunch of lame storylines that did little (close to not at all) to describe the current conditions of Unther, Mulhorand and the rest. Waterdeep was not bad- an acceptable balance between fluff and crunch. One of the best books printed for FR in 3.x Don't kid yourself. FRCS is all about the crunch. The fluff bits are just that- bits. To more or less prove my point, here's an "anecdote" from Sean K. Reynolds: http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html It doesn't take much reading between the lines to realize that crunch-heavy books outsell fluff-heavy books by 150%. That's not a trivial amount. Your assertion that FR players want fluff just doesn't hold water. I'm not saying that with any malice or sense of triumph. I'm with you- I want lots of fluff. But it's glaringly obvious that most people want crunch a ton more than fluff. Your point that Grand History is at least a tiny bit compelling, but it came out literally weeks ago compared to every other book in the FR catalog. It's already being outsold by the Magic Item Compendium, an all-crunch book that came out over six months ago. And the Rules Compendium, another all-crunch book, is outselling both of them.
SgtAnjay 10-18-07, 08:03 PM	Your assertion that FR players want fluff just doesn't hold water. I'm not saying that with any malice or sense of triumph. I'm with you- I want lots of fluff. But it's glaringly obvious that most people want crunch a ton more than fluff. Your point that Grand History is at least a tiny bit compelling, but it came out literally weeks ago compared to every other book in the FR catalog. It's already being outsold by the Magic Item Compendium, an all-crunch book that came out over six months ago. And the Rules Compendium, another all-crunch book, is outselling both of them. They didn't say D&D players want more fluff, they said FR players want more fluff. Neither the Magic Item Compendium nor the Rules Compendium are FR books. Generic books are going to sell better regardless of fluff/crunch, because they are used by players regardless of the setting or present or future games.
Stigger 10-19-07, 01:34 AM	Interesting point about the canon portrayal of FR deities as 'Greek' styled in the behaviours. However, it doesn't say exclusively Greek, and I think opens up the door for either view of them really. Though to be honest I completely forgot about that particular passage being in there. Still though, the descriptions that followed it didn't really mesh well in my mind with some of that paragraph, so I suppose I just ignored it. As to the Triad being Catholic, just plain no... the Triad is nothing like Catholicism, and the one time they tried, the Church of Torm specifically, they got stomped on the head for it. Though I would agree with your point that Philosophy is alive and well in the Realms, if not thriving. I can see your point about humanism, although I suspect we have two very different interpretations of it. I will admit that I have an extraordinarily difficult time divorcing it from Catholicism, so that could have something to do with it. Humanistic I could probably live with though. I would take exception with that interpretation of Mystran doctrine though, since it rather explicitly states that magic shouldn't be looked at as simply a tool, but a thing of wonder and mystery. But that is slightly nitpicky of me. Overall though, I don't really disagree with you after having read your thoughts up there, beyond the approach to the gods bit, and even then, I don't necessarily have a problem with that so long as its a background thing that no one really knows much about until long after the fact... I suppose it comes from that earlier bit of the section that says to use them sparingly and with care. I can see it for really high level (15+) characters that divine interaction might be approaching occassional, but your average farmer wouldn't ever really know about it first hand. Could be that I'm letting the idea that these are divine beings, and that meeting them should change your life (which I probably took away from Mage thinking about it) as being the best way to handle encounters with the divine. Sure, they're real, sure they're flawed, but they're just plain more than you'll likely ever be... I suppose to sum it up, why give them such high Wisdom and Intelligence scores if you're going to make them behave like idiots (Cyric being a prime case in point)? Which sums up the problem I tend to have with their portrayals I think.
johnkretzer 10-19-07, 01:48 AM	Well, your interpretation of what's fluff and what's crunch is fairly subjective. I think that Lost Empire of Faerun is WAY too much crunch and not anywhere NEAR enough fluff for my tastes. Hell, the only fluff they have in the books as far as I'm concerned is a bunch of lame storylines that did little (close to not at all) to describe the current conditions of Unther, Mulhorand and the rest. Well to me mechanics that are just there to support fluff like the Servant of the Fallen featy are fluff. Sure it is subjective and open up to interpertations. Waterdeep was not bad- an acceptable balance between fluff and crunch. One of the best books printed for FR in 3.x. I agree especialy with the fact that the mechanics were just there to support the fluff. Don't kid yourself. FRCS is all about the crunch. The fluff bits are just that- bits. To more or less prove my point, here's an "anecdote" from Sean K. Reynolds: http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html. I really can't consider this as proof as the fact that I think the design staff at WorC are so far removed from what fans want...also it is just a story...no facts to back it up. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to realize that crunch-heavy books outsell fluff-heavy books by 150%. That's not a trivial amount. Your assertion that FR players want fluff just doesn't hold water. I'm not saying that with any malice or sense of triumph. I'm with you- I want lots of fluff. But it's glaringly obvious that most people want crunch a ton more than fluff. Your point that Grand History is at least a tiny bit compelling, but it came out literally weeks ago compared to every other book in the FR catalog. It's already being outsold by the Magic Item Compendium, an all-crunch book that came out over six months ago. And the Rules Compendium, another all-crunch book, is outselling both of them. The fact that the Grand History of the Realms is the highest on the list of all FR products seem to me to speak volumes about what FR fans want. Also the fact that a book that has been out of six months from now is out selling it means l;ittle. Lets look at in six months to allow the GhotR to have the same amount of time. As for the Rules Compedium outselling everything well that just makes sense. Every person who has played D&D 3.x will want this book. There are alot of people out there who play D&D that don't play the FR. Actualy the fact that this book is selling so well doesn't bode well for 4th edition... But really personaly I don't mind crunch aslong as it supports the fluff. The thing I have always hated is the 5 page stat blocks....that is just waste of space. And I think they will change this in the future.
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 02:27 AM	Interesting point about the canon portrayal of FR deities as 'Greek' styled in the behaviours. However, it doesn't say exclusively Greek, and I think opens up the door for either view of them really. Though to be honest I completely forgot about that particular passage being in there. Still though, the descriptions that followed it didn't really mesh well in my mind with some of that paragraph, so I suppose I just ignored it. Really, I never got the take that we were supposed to view the gods as so distantly removed from their write ups. Demihuman Deities explicitly has Deities that are just running around killing time with their guys. Corellon is about as far removed from above and beyond the elven people as possible. As to the Triad being Catholic, just plain no... the Triad is nothing like Catholicism, and the one time they tried, the Church of Torm specifically, they got stomped on the head for it. This is my own interpretation, mainly boiling down to some fun similiarities. Ilmater having the very Jesus like connotations thanks to his role as a successor to Issek the Jug, Torm being the archetypical Feudal Knight, and Tyr being the stern Patriarch figure allows a pretty easy work to make. I go thus with a very fun role of an idealised Catholicism for contrasts to regular Realms faiths. Their Three-In-One faith is explicitly one where monarchs are selected by the clergy for their godly virtue, enlightened and educated priests provide spiritual guidance for the populace from a position of higher superiority/knowledge, and noble warriors defend holy mother church against truly evil faiths. The Triune is almost 100% without corruption, mistakes, zealotry, or persecution. It's fun because my players, in character, find the worldview so utterly out there compared to their regular practical and Polytheistic one. It's hard for them to wrap their minds around the Triad concept of reverance, otherworldiness, and humility. I would take exception with that interpretation of Mystran doctrine though, since it rather explicitly states that magic shouldn't be looked at as simply a tool, but a thing of wonder and mystery. But that is slightly nitpicky of me. I was paraphrasing. It's "Magic is the Key to Civilization" with suitable drooling Raistlin awe. Could be that I'm letting the idea that these are divine beings, and that meeting them should change your life (which I probably took away from Mage thinking about it) as being the best way to handle encounters with the divine. Sure, they're real, sure they're flawed, but they're just plain more than you'll likely ever be... I see our big problem here. I run games with something of a variant of the Eberron model, which is specifically the PCs are explicitly Champions. The Order of the Radiant Heart, the Harpers, and so on are absolutely filled with heroes. However, the PCs are meant to be "Heroes" which places them in an explicit story position above Joe mortal. Champions are Odysseus, Hercules, Gilgamesh, David, Conan, and so on. They're people that struggle with gods and win over them or are the favorites of the divine for whatever reason. Now, I could run FR where everyone is just running out of the Thieves Guild in Westgate but I tend to have FR be the game where the PCs have to stop grandiose plans for world domination....and be back for tea. Also, I think it's important Champions are unique because they're often the guys who have to stand up to deities whether good or evil. Also, they're not just being foolish. Sometimes they're right.
johnkretzer 10-19-07, 02:33 AM	I would also like to raise up another point about how the Choosen of Mystra were mishandled by ignoring the lore about them. Also why they aren't as active as some people think they should be. The Choosen main function is to keep the Weave functional if something happens to Mystra. Consider them safety valves for it. So their main goal in life is to survive. Now I don't care what the stats say eventualy if you just run around picking fights you'll die. Hence the perfer to work in the background though people like the PCs. They should also be in now way or shape gathering together for anything purpose as this expose them to a single attack that could kill them all which I think would damage the Weave tremendously. Just more thoughts on how the designers and authors just didn't get the setting.
Derren S. 10-19-07, 04:10 AM	The Choosen main function is to keep the Weave functional if something happens to Mystra. Consider them safety valves for it. So their main goal in life is to survive. Well, that is not how they were displayed in the novels.
Stigger 10-19-07, 06:31 AM	Yet it is how they are generally supposed to be according to what I've read of them... with a couple of exceptions in their interactions with the Harpers, namely Dove and Storm. Not really the NPCs fault if the authors generally get it wrong... But onto other stuff. Charles... as to how deities behave, its probably safe to say that its better to agree to disagree than to continue it. I learned long ago that two people can read the exact same thing and come away with two completely different takes on it... which I'm sure GothicDan would corroborate as far as I'm concerned. :D I can see your point on the Triad, but to be honest I've spent too much time studying and examining the Catholic Church to really run with that idea. Probably the pagan in me rejecting anything to do with a faith I'm remarkably suspect of being anywhere near my fantasy settings, no matter how idealized. My own hang-up there I suspect. I won't go into how they're nothing alike, as its largely academic and generally inconsequential to the discussion. Never much got into that whole Raistlin thing... was Dragonlance right? Sorry, Weiss and Hickman just leave me cold by and large. As to defeating gods and the like... the idea just doesn't sit well with me. Foiling a plot by their followers is one thing, but I don't see that as defeating the deity per se, just their lackeys. If an avatar shows up, then generally speaking the PCs are going to lose unless they happen to be Epic, or at least very near-Epic, but its going to take everything they have just to survive, much less win under all but the most remarkable circumstance (ie, ToT). But to me, the idea of facing deities and foiling them on a regular basis is not a desireable thing in a campaign. I kinda prefer the world-shaking stuff as either background, or the finale of a campaign. Starting out small, working your way up, and maybe get to the point where you influence a single region. I suspect we have rather different ideas as to what constitutes heroes though, and from what I gather about your definition, I could see where you would be looking forward to 4e, as it seems right up your alley. Don't take that as an insult please, it isn't. You seem to enjoy the epic, sweeping, overcome all the odds sort of stories, while I prefer a slower paced, less sweeping, good-dominant (not overly so mind you, but I got sick of the dark and gloomy crap from spending too much time in old WoD) place to adventure. From my point of view, the Realms proved ideal for my purposes up until the RSE of the month period that WotC and its stable of authors seem to be in. I honestly don't see another setting that offers that sort of situation, so its going to be homebrew Realms (or somewhere else if the disgust level reaches too high for a time) from here on out for me, and I suspect quite a few others. And honestly, that's great for you and those of a like mind, but really crap for me and others who share my opinion.
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 09:49 AM	Before we stop our conversation, a couple of misconceptions here. I can see your point on the Triad, but to be honest I've spent too much time studying and examining the Catholic Church to really run with that idea. Probably the pagan in me rejecting anything to do with a faith I'm remarkably suspect of being anywhere near my fantasy settings, no matter how idealized. My own hang-up there I suspect. I won't go into how they're nothing alike, as its largely academic and generally inconsequential to the discussion. It's a pagan Norse deity that's been LGized, a Lankhmar Demigod, and Luke Skywalker raised to divine status. I'm not exactly going to remotely suggest that the two are identical. I just prefer to use it as an analogue in some respects because it gives my players something to latch onto. I'd definitely drop it were someone in my campaign uncomfortable with it. As to defeating gods and the like... the idea just doesn't sit well with me. Foiling a plot by their followers is one thing, but I don't see that as defeating the deity per se, just their lackeys. If an avatar shows up, then generally speaking the PCs are going to lose unless they happen to be Epic, or at least very near-Epic, but its going to take everything they have just to survive, much less win under all but the most remarkable circumstance (ie, ToT). You misunderstand me. While "gods as defeatable" is something I run with; I only have used it for Demigods at the climax of a campaign, against imprisoned deities with no followers (reduced to quasi deity status), and during the Time of Troubles. If an avatar was summoned by followers (usually through Cthulhu-esque rituals since I restrict avatar summoning along with Raise Dead) to battle PCs then, to not put a point on it, they are completely and utterly :censored:. I'm against "nerfing" villains to be honest. I've made it clear to my PCs that in the case of great wizards like Manshoon or the like, a straight fight isn't really going to go according to the rules because he'll have researched spells that pretty much teleport them to the Nine Hells or otherwise crush them like insects. Past 18th level is pretty much where I state "Stats aren't really important at this point." Instead, it becomes a matter of the PCs having to discover a bound Solar Deva or A Dead Magic Zone crystal (like Errtu had) to give them a remote chance of success. No, however, I do think that PCs can and do become the personal irritation for the gods. I've often made use of cutaways to point out Bane and Cyric sitting on their respective thrones, looking down on them, and intending to make their lives a living Hell for thwarting their plans at times. And honestly, that's great for you and those of a like mind, but really crap for me and others who share my opinion. I'd like to also clarrify a matter as well that while I enjoy the above games and PCs as Champions, not everyone one of my games is "What dastardly plot is Cyric up to, today?" like he's Cobra Commander or Megatron. My current campaign is dealing with the Death of the Dragon series as modified by the needs of my campaign. The villains are Semmenon whose created a Gondegal Clone to help make Arabel sucede, Yaga-Shura the Fire Giant whose commanding an army of giants out of the Stonelands, a Black Dragon assembling Shar worshipping Weave disciples in "The Tearing of the Weave", and Ashemmi whose gone insane and become a Priestess of Cyric. Leading these four is the Pereghost whom is the Campaign Master villain right now. Last adventure was the PCs watching the sacking of Tilverton by the giant army as they lead refugees out of the city to hook up with the Purple Dragons. This is not exactly my "Die Vecna Die" game. However, at the start of the campaign, I did give a cutaway to Cyric and its clear that the destruction of Cormyr with the release of the Devil Dragon amongst other nasties is the doing of his will.
Puggins 10-19-07, 10:17 AM	As to the Triad being Catholic, just plain no... the Triad is nothing like Catholicism, and the one time they tried, the Church of Torm specifically, they got stomped on the head for it. Well, not Catholic specifically, but certainly related to the trinity. I'm not certain they intentionally got this close, but: Tyr- God of Justice and Law (God the Father, who handed down the commandments) Torm- Crusader, the Warrior (God the Holy Spirit, who fills men's hearts with faith and inspires the faithful) Ilmater- The Suffering One, who takes all the world's pain unto himself (come on, this one is a gimme) It's very, very close.
Puggins 10-19-07, 10:20 AM	But really personaly I don't mind crunch aslong as it supports the fluff. The thing I have always hated is the 5 page stat blocks....that is just waste of space. And I think they will change this in the future. This is one goal of 4e that I think no one can argue with. Shrinking stat blocks by like 80% is absolutely necessary, as far as I'm concerned.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-19-07, 01:26 PM	Well, that is not how they were displayed in the novels. Sorry, but that doesn't contradict what the CREATOR of said characters says about them (the Chosen of Mystra).
Bluenose 10-19-07, 02:19 PM	Sorry, but that doesn't contradict what the CREATOR of said characters says about them (the Chosen of Mystra). Silverfall.
Stigger 10-19-07, 04:16 PM	Was an exception really... and to be honest not all that well conceived of a story. I can see your points Charles, even if I still largely disagree with your interpretations. But hey, to each their own, and if thats your take and style with the Realms, more power to you. I'm pretty sure you'd find a lot of exception with how I run the Realms too. ;) :)
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 05:41 PM	Actually, given I talked relentlessly, I'd like to hear alittle bit more about your realms. But yeah, I wanted to clear up the fact that the PCs aren't regularly challenging the gods. They're mostly opposing the gods through their proxies.
Stigger 10-19-07, 05:49 PM	Heh, I'll warn you outright that it incorporates a lot of stuff from White Wolf's Old World of Darkness, so don't expect much canon out of it lol. But it'll have to wait, as I'm off to the wonderful and exciting world of dentistry...
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 06:14 PM	Have fun and I don't mind at all. I used to rack my brain to figure out how to use the Order of Hermes in Forgotten Realms. ;-)
Stigger 10-20-07, 04:02 AM	Well... where to start. Canon stuff first I guess. Not sure I'll get around to the WoD stuff, I'm a little on the far side of tired, but eventually... If you're not familiar with Changeling: The Dreaming, a lot of this may not make much sense. Obviously, I put the Fae up on the top of the food chain so to speak... and its an old campaign that dates back at least 12 years. Still running it actually, one of the three I'm currently involved in. The Church of Loviater: A very different beast from the one presented in canon, which has migrated from being a LE faith to being LN after a charismatic philosopher (a PC from an early campaign) stepped up and began promoting the idea that Loviater was tremendously important because pain is what teaches us to survive, and was Loviater's gift to mortals to help keep them safe from even greater harm. There was a tremendous emphasis on Free Will, come willingly or don't come at all, and much effort to stamp out slavery and kidnapping as practiced by the Church. She did a lot of travelling and preached the word from the North to the Shining South and made a lot of converts. A heretic to be certain, but one who managed to change the faith to conform to her heresy rather than the other way around. Was an absolute blast of a story, with the other PCs acting as her converted bodyguards who kept her safe through the assassination plots from both goodly types and her fellow Loviatans looking to stamp out her heresy. The Elves: I messed with them a lot to be honest. I took the whole 'came from Faerie' bit and ran with it, making them a lost Sidhe house who gave up their fae natures in order to save the Dreaming from a catastrophe brought on by treacherous Dream Mages (I'll get around to them later, but it was my answer to the 10th Sphere question to put it briefly) who betrayed the Dreaming and managed to imprison the Creator of the Dreaming, which triggered the earliest glimmers of the Sundering (from Changeling, not FR's). I made their High Magic a shadow of the magic that they used to command as True Fae, seperating it from the 'standard' magic as practiced by the rest of Faerun. Of course they forgot their nature in the process, and continued to be driven by the imperatives of the Pageant and such. If you haven't figured it out by now, I seriously ramped up the Fae and their powers from what was presented in Changeling, and made them the Eldest of races, near god-like (taking the Pooka as the old gods of Egypt thing and running with it) when in their True forms. It got kinda complicated and would probably take up a few pages to really go into, but in a nutshell, there's the possibility of them discovering their past Nature and even maybe reclaiming it now that the Creator of the Dreaming has been freed from his prison. Dwarves & Gnomes: The Dwarves I put in as the lost (and conveniently unknown) Lords of the Mound kith, who also sacrificed their fae natures to preserve things like the elves did. The story is much the same with the Gnomes, who were an offshoot of the Piskie kith. Interestingly, I hadn't really planned on this move, but one of my player's Pooka was making a comment about how insufferable the Sidhe were going to be if they were the only ones who sacrificed themselves, etcetera and so forth, so on a whim I tossed this one out there just to keep her from complaining any more than she had been. The Anauroch: To be honest, I hate the Phaerimm, almost completely for aesthetic reasons, so I ignore their existance, and have the Anauroch as the Creator of the Dreaming's place of imprisonment, which eventually began to leech the life from the region as the cage he was placed in began to deteriorate, turning it into a wasteland. Eventually the Netherese noticed something of power being present, discovered Heavy Magic, blah, blah, blah... the story pretty much ends the same way, but with slightly different details. I kinda liked the Bedine being there, it added a surreal quality to the region, so I made them descendants of a Taftani group who rose up to challenge the Dream Mages and who got blasted for their troubles. The story eventually got twisted with time and so they came to the whole magic is bad way of thinking. Otherwise its pretty much the same beyond its origins. Of course the whole Shade thing I'm pretty much ignoring and saying got blasted alongside the rest of the Enclaves... I just prefer the Netherese as the great cautionary tale they make on the dangers of Hubris and Resonance, and to bring them back would kinda undermine that theme for me. Shar: I've messed with her quite a bit, weakening her significantly. I put her in as the daughter of the Lord of Nightmare who corrupted those Dream Mages in the first place, along with Lolth, and who basically rebelled against the Dreaming (which includes Nightmare, I don't see the two as enemies, just different sides of the same coin), and who profitted greatly from everything, until the Creator of the Dreaming was freed, where her actions were discovered by Daddy, who stepped in to discipline his wayward progeny. That's another story altogether though... suffice to say she's still viewed as a Greater Deity by the mortals, but has been put on a very short leash. Still haven't quite decided how I'm going to end that one yet. Elven/Dwarven/Gnomish pantheons: Former Tuatha da Danaan who descended (yes, you read that right) to Godhood to look after their valiant children who sacrificed so much and all that. Obviously the Seldarine came first in my plan, so Corellon ended up as the former Lord of the Dreaming counterpart to the Lord of the Nightmare, who was his older brother, following the idea that the Sharran/Selunite dogma contained a kernel of truth to it and that darkness came first. Lolth even worked in there, who as mentioned earlier, was working with Shar to seize power, and who was caught, whereas Shar wasn't. Lolth was cast down, pretty much the same story from there with some obvious changes. The Drow: I have them as a Sidhe house, who betrayed the Dreaming, and followed Lolths promises of power. They pretty much follow the general history of things with the Descent and all that, with even the members of the House who weren't part of the plot (read Miyeritar) being affected by the curse that was laid down on them. I really seriously rewrote the history of the Crown Wars for that one, pretty much divorcing the gold elves of Aryvandaar from their canon selves and casting them as the most valiant part of the fallen house who suffered the greatest losses and who were nearly wiped out opposing their fallen kin. (Which is ironic considering some of the past arguements I got into with Gothic Dan and Phil on the subject... don't tell them this part, I'm not sure they'd let me live it down. :D ) The Harpers: I've really downplayed them quite a bit actually, and pretty much eliminated the whole Schism thing, as I didn't really care for that storyline in the first place, and it didn't quite work with the merging of worlds I had in mind, as I rather needed them to help the Fae and their allies crossing over to Faerun to get settled and acclimitated. They've kinda been turned into the lackeys of the Fae in a lot of respects, and a few members of House Liam and House Fiona are pretty involved with them, along with more than a few commoners of various kiths, particularly the Eshu and Boggans. Neverwinter: The base of operations for the Fae exodus, and the terminus of the one trod that connects the two worlds. I took the whole Neverwinter Woods as enchanted to its logical conclusion (in the context of the larger story) and the city's elven origins and used it for a couple of different reasons. One, I like the whole follow your weird aspect to their society, which I thought meshed nicely with the type of people fae would be attracted to, and the remarkable creativity which seems to exist there, which produces lots of glamour. It just seemed a natural linkup really. The Church of Sune: This is a rather large alteration on my part, and probably shouldn't be surprising considering my own personal views on how Sune should be, rather than how she is portrayed. I tend to define her as a much more encompassing diety, with Love extending to not only romantic love, but also to love of friends, family, country, etcetera, and Passion being defined more the way it was for Satyr's in their kithbook. It's a much more sophisticated faith, very cosmopolitan and refined, with constant debate and philosophizing going on in it. Obviously its a haven for Satyrs, certain Sidhe houses, Eshu, and Pooka, as well as Nockers who are more into aesthetics than they are into technology, and the fae influence has only made things that much more pronounced for the church. The Church of Gond: Has kinda been taken over by the Nockers, who have essentially invade Lantan and merged with the natives into a strange synthesis of Nocker, Gnome, and Lantanna society... I'd go into it, but it really belongs more to my wife than it does to me, and as I have to sleep next to her, I thought it best to let her have it and indulge her in some of her stranger Nocker-inspired whims there. Suffice to say, that no one in their right mind will willingly challenge the Lantan Grand Fleet... don't even get me started on the whole Froud-esque Goblin Episode we went through one evening... There's tons more really, but that seems like a good start, and I'll be here all night if I try to cover everything in a decade plus campaign. Hopefully it might even make some sense to you. :D
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 08:51 AM	Yes, well I used to run a Changeling: The Dreaming game on the White Wolf boards that got complimented by Nicky Ree once, so I'm pretty familiar with the game. Those Damn Drow Ailil! ;-) Impressive game that impresses a lot of the setting with fairy nature, though I don't go quite as far as you in stealing from the Fae (I do use "Sidhe" as "True Elves" though when I use the Fairy Court) We also migrated a Nocker character once to our games by turning him into a Gnome from Lantan. The same for a Catfolk (Pooka) girl. She became a priestess of Sune. And your Sune is how I treated her. If you want to share, I'd be very interested in hearing more.