Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uzzy 03-31-08, 06:49 PM	Reclamation, Elaine Cunningham's latest/final book in the Realms, has rather disappeared from Amazon.com. I also checked Amazon.ca, and it's gone from there. Over here in the UK, it's still available to be preordered, but no release date. So, anyone any news on what's happening with this book? Rich?
MarkusTay63 04-01-08, 01:19 AM	You wouldn't happen to be Red walker over at CK, would you? Because that poster just asked the same question over there on Elaine's thread. That would probably be the best place to get a straight answer, I would imagine. maybe it had to much 'Realmslore' in it. ;)
Lord Karsus 04-01-08, 03:34 AM	-I'm sure that the release date was just pushed around, and nothing else. Every other Forgotten Realms novel was pushed back a few months, to be released after the 4e sourcebooks come out, as to allow people to "digest the changes", in the words of Paul Kemp. So, have no fear. We're probably just going to have to wait a little longer.
Uzzy 04-01-08, 09:47 AM	No no. I'm Uzzy over on Candlekeep too! (And on lots of other forums) I just saw this on CK and confirmed it myself. Still, it is a mite worrying.
Uzzy 04-14-08, 06:45 PM	Well, Elaine just posted on Candlekeep that WoTC have cancelled Reclamation. GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT I've heard writers far more experienced than I admit that every now and then, they'll come up against a book that is far more difficult to write than they'd anticipated--including some stories they're never able to complete. For me, RECLAMATION was one of these problematic stories. I rewrote the plot several times, changed the scope of the story, dropped characters and subplots and added new ones, changed Elaith Craulnober's role from a secondary character to a major character, wrote, revised, tossed out, lather-rinse-repeat. Despite all these efforts--and also because of them--I was unable to complete the book before the drop-deadline. After much consideration, the folks at WotC decided to cancel RECLAMATION. I have absolutely no complaints about the way WotC has handled this situation. If a writer cannot, for any reason, meet a contracted deadline, the publisher has every right to cancel that book. Yes, I'm disappointed. This story dealt with several issues I would have liked to resolve: the final mystery behind the moonblades, the identity of the child Princess Amnestria bore to Elaith Craunober, the fate of Kymil Nimesin, the royal succession of Evermeet. Elaith needed to face his past and move beyond it one way or another. Danilo needed to move beyond what my friend and current co-writer calls "a walking romantic subplot" and come into his own. Arilyn had residual issues raised by events in the last part of Dream Spheres. But. With fourth edition around the corner, it just didn't make sense to push back the release date again. Upcoming 4th edition changes to the Realms will render many of the themes and concerns of this book irrelevant, just as the destruction of Halruaa pretty much guaranteed the irrelevance of the Counselors & Kings trilogy. Also, nine years have elapsed since the release of DREAMSPHERES, the last Songs & Swords book. Nine years. That's a long, long gap, even in as long-lived a series as Songs & Swords. ELFSHADOW, the first Songs & Swords book, has been in print longer than many FR readers have been alive. All things considered, it’s probably time to move on. I apologize to readers who have been looking forward to this story and who are disappointed by its cancellation. You have my heartfelt thanks for all your support, kindness, and friendship over the years. :(
MarkusTay63 04-14-08, 07:28 PM	Holy F___nugget!!! Its sounds as if all of the 4e crap has caught up to her, and she's just given up on the Realms. :( Can't say I blame her, but that is SO depressing.
Iakhovas 04-14-08, 07:30 PM	This is sad news indeed. :allalone:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-14-08, 08:34 PM	Very sad..."depressing" is an apt term.:raincloud
Daenaan 04-14-08, 10:38 PM	Another casualty of the Spellplague. Disappointing and unfortunate, but not terribly surprising at this point. Probably the most telling part of the quote: "Upcoming 4th edition changes to the Realms will render many of the themes and concerns of this book irrelevant, just as the destruction of Halruaa pretty much guaranteed the irrelevance of the Counselors & Kings trilogy."
18DELTA 04-14-08, 10:54 PM	-:eek: :ghosted: 18D:(
dav 04-15-08, 01:35 AM	I was really really looking forward to that one. Its too bad it got canceled.
Zanan 04-15-08, 04:04 AM	Right now, WotC is all geared up to 4E and 4E Realms. It will most likely be years till a book (i.e. novel) about the Old Realms will be out. Never say never, but that's quite likely a scenario. Maybe WotC and Elaine can reach some sort of agreement that she can e.g. post a few notes or short stories over at Candlekeep or even via the Dragon every now and then. Will not make her any richer, but will mean that the work as such does reach the readership, something everyone concerned is surely not opposed to.
Friendlyfish 04-15-08, 04:11 AM	That is a big shame, I've followed her work over the years and enjoyed a lot of it. I guess for a lot of people, the 4e realms are a completely different world with the words "Forgotten Realms" stamped on it. One question I have: will Greenwood be doing any more writing for the 4e Realms? Or is he going to disassociate himself as well?
Jiggawha 04-15-08, 04:20 AM	hope this gets released somehow
MarkusTay63 04-15-08, 08:00 AM	I wouldn't be too happy if the guy in charge of 4th edition wrote a novel basically contradicting the ending of one my own best books, and then 'cancelling' that ending altogether in the GHotR. And then they 'Nuke' Halruaa, effectively making another entire series meaningless. How can she feel 'inspired' to write, when everything she does gets tossed in the trash heap? I'm starting to see patterns again.... At least I finally understand why they got rid of Halruaa... They needed the room for another ton of someone's Shadowcr@p. :(
Rauric 04-15-08, 08:23 AM	I like all of her books but the Halruaa ones. I just couldn't get halfway through the first one. I liked the concept but it was rather bland compared to all of her previous stuff. Oh the last Lriel book wasn't as good (IMO) as the first two either. I would have picked up an Elaith book. She should have done more with this character and not just left him a 2nd tier character. That might have been the Novel depts idea though. Anyway I would have read it since it dealt with characters I liked. The thing is though a lot of things people have written about are not going to be used. Lots of writers ideas are not going to be around in 4E. I hope she realized something like this could happen when she signed on with a shared world setting. In 4E it sounds like Halruaans are mercs now. Since people are wary of magic or think its downright evil in 4E I think that the Jordanni might still exist. A group that is dedicated to combating casters and are able to shrug off magics effects? That sounds like a decent group of wizard hunters to me.
Khaelieth 04-15-08, 08:46 AM	Damn.
Khaelieth 04-15-08, 08:52 AM	Kymil and Elaith were/are my favourite Realms characters. And no new book about them?
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 08:57 AM	-Here's what I said to Elaine. I think it's a bit more eloquent than what I said a few moments ago: -Elaine, words cannot express how sorry for you, and, in general, how sad I am. These are dark times for the Forgotten Realms, and Reclaimtion was, in my mind, the light at the end of the tunnel. The "Point of Light", if you will. Reclaimation was probably going to be one of the last, if not the last, Forgotten Realms novel that I read, as the future of the Forgotten Realms is not for me. -And, what a climax it would have been. The culmination of so many complex tangents, plotlines and stories. A definite fate for various characters that we have all, over the years, come to love, hate, laugh at, and cry with. But now, unfortunatley, none of that will come to pass. Like so many other things in the current Forgotten Realms, we will now never get to see what happens to Elaith, to Arilyn, to Danillo, to Kymil, to Amnestria's daughter, and to everyone else. That is, their true fates, as determined by the individual who breathed life into these characters, who made us care about them. -Just when the roller coaster was reaching the top of that slope, about to take that tumble for the final time, it stops. Just when the composer was signaling his orchestra to build the creshendo for the grand finale, he cuts them off. -Elaine, I genuinely hope that you are able to "find yourself" and expel the writing demons that are 'haunting' you. Steve (and, by proxy, the entire Forgotten Realms fandom :) )
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-15-08, 01:25 PM	Another casualty of the Spellplague. Disappointing and unfortunate, but not terribly surprising at this point. Probably the most telling part of the quote: "Upcoming 4th edition changes to the Realms will render many of the themes and concerns of this book irrelevant, just as the destruction of Halruaa pretty much guaranteed the irrelevance of the Counselors & Kings trilogy." I sort of disagree with Elaine on that. The themes and concerns of a good book are usually relevant no matter what the context of the book is. However, I do think she means that the story she wanted to tell doesn't matter as much anymore, because elements that she introduced to the setting have either been unceremoniously put out to pasture (Lamruil's Hidden Realm), or have been changed drastically from what they were originally meant to be (the moonblades). As far as that goes, as others have already said, I think Elaine's work is in truth more relevant to the Realms setting than many of the ideas that have been recently introduced (the Spellplague, the Abolethic Sovereignty).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-15-08, 01:27 PM	-Here's what I said to Elaine. I think it's a bit more eloquent than what I said a few moments ago: It was eloquent, and a nice thing to say, I thought.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-15-08, 01:30 PM	I hope she realized something like this could happen when she signed on with a shared world setting. She has mentioned, time and again, that she is aware of that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-15-08, 01:31 PM	Kymil and Elaith were/are my favourite Realms characters. And no new book about them? Not by Elaine. Of course, WotC owns these characters, and could still order a book about them (most likely by another author) if they wanted to. I think it's safe to say that Elaine's story arc won't ever be completed, though.
MarkusTay63 04-15-08, 01:32 PM	I think what it boils down to is that her vision of the Realms no longer matches WotC's. And I honestly can't say I blame her. :( Since hearing about the 4e FR changes, I have completely lost my own muse, and I am sure others have as well. You just start asking yourself "Why Bother?" :raincloud
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 01:34 PM	It was eloquent, and a nice thing to say, I thought.:) :embarrass She has mentioned, time and again, that she is aware of that. -Elaine is probably, perhaps even moreso than Ed Greenwood, the most keenly aware that the Forgotten Realms are not hers, and that the setting is a shared-author setting, where everyone can have an impact on anything.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-15-08, 02:11 PM	-Elaine is probably, perhaps even moreso than Ed Greenwood, the most keenly aware that the Forgotten Realms are not hers, and that the setting is a shared-author setting, where everyone can have an impact on anything. Indeed, she's discussed the pitfalls of writing for a shared-world numerous times. For example, she knew she had to stoically accept that moonblades have been changed radically from their original intent, and while at times it was obvious she was frustrated with having to work around these new developments as they popped up (she was sometimes unaware of them until she read about them in their respective novels, for example), I never once heard her complain that those developments should not have occured, or that it was unfair, etc.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-15-08, 02:17 PM	Since hearing about the 4e FR changes, I have completely lost my own muse, and I am sure others have as well. I think there might be something to what you're saying here. After all, as Elaine herself said, 4E is close to the horizon, and it renders most of her characters dead simply because of the time jump. Maybe that element made writing about them a sad task (only Elaine herself could answer that, though).
Alediran 04-15-08, 03:24 PM	I have also lost my muses with the first announcements for 4th edition FR. That's why I haven't been able even to open a single FR book since that time. And why I'm not doing work for the Elven Netbook either. And I was so waiting for Reclamation. WotC is only giving us more reasons to hate them because of their changes. Right now I think they are only a bunch of self-serving jackasses.
MarkusTay63 04-15-08, 04:08 PM	To be fair, WotC did NOT cancel Reclamation - Elaine did. Her reasons may have been 4e-related, but it was HER decision to not continue to produce FR lore. I'm as saddened by this as any of you, but knowing how I myself feel ATM, I can not blame her in the slightest. I am sure if she ever does decide to finish it, the guys over at WotC will be more then happy to publish it (and make money from it). They know there is a line several miles long already in place waiting for this novel. BTW, if anyone else writes it, I certainly hope NO ONE will buy it. :devil:
Uzzy 04-15-08, 04:30 PM	Uh Markus, you did read the quote right? Despite all these efforts--and also because of them--I was unable to complete the book before the drop-deadline. After much consideration, the folks at WotC decided to cancel RECLAMATION.
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 04:47 PM	And why I'm not doing work for the Elven Netbook either. -Yes, I notice...You, and everyone else...:waits: -I can only do so much... Uh Markus, you did read the quote right? -Yes, and as Elaine herself said in that very same paragraph, she didn't finish the manuscript, and, as a writer, she understands that if a writer does not meet their deadline, it is completely within the rights of the publisher to cancel things, which is what happened.
Stigger 04-15-08, 04:54 PM	Not like they pulled the plug on a finished product... only know of one company that does that in the gaming industry, and that was years ago. Can't say I really like her writing style (completely personal taste thing), though I do like what she does with Realmslore.
MarkusTay63 04-15-08, 05:02 PM	Right. She told them she couldn't complete it. They said Okay, and took it off the schedule (hence, the use of the term 'cancellation'). Did you expect them to keep it on the release schedule, and just set the date to 'Whenever'? I rarely, if ever, defend WotC, but this was VERY MUCH Elaine's decision. Was it based on the cavalier way they destroyed lore she has previously created? probably.... But it was still her decision, and I admire her 'testicular fortitude' for standing up for herself and not let them force her to produce mediocrisy. She explained she did not like the way the novel was turning out (probably because they give their writers an 'ending', and tell them to write stuff that leads up to it). I'm reading into this, but I think she had the personal integrity to NOT do to her characters what THEY wanted her to do. Thats just speculation, but I respect her decision, even though it saddens me to know that she will not be producing any more FR lore. I wish Ed her chutzpah.... Maybe if enough 'official types' turned their back on this 4e FR crap, they'd think twice about it. We need more Elaines and paizo's to show the 800 lb Gorilla that FANS MATTER. :censored:
Uzzy 04-15-08, 05:06 PM	-Yes, and as Elaine herself said in that very same paragraph, she didn't finish the manuscript, and, as a writer, she understands that if a writer does not meet their deadline, it is completely within the rights of the publisher to cancel things, which is what happened. Yup. That's a world away from Elaine herself stopping work on it/cancelling it herself. I'm certainly not disputing the right of WoTC to cancel it, especially as Elaine missed her deadlines. I'm just of the opinion that Elaine should have been given as long as she wanted to finish the book. Maybe I'm just an idealist.
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 05:12 PM	I'm just of the opinion that Elaine should have been given as long as she wanted to finish the book. Maybe I'm just an idealist. -You're just an idealist. It just doesn't work like that, unfortunatley...
MarkusTay63 04-15-08, 06:28 PM	They need to put planned projects on their release schedule - they can't simply put a product on their schedule with absolutely NO release date. They did NOt cancel the project, so much, as cancel her release date. The project itself was cancelled by Elaine when she told them she could NOT complete it on time (due to personal problems with the current manuscript). I am sure if she turned around a year from now, and told them she has 'found her muse' and will now be able to complete it, they would HAPPILY put it back on the schedule. If there's one thing I've learned about people in general, its that they like making money. ;)
SmartPaladin 04-15-08, 07:38 PM	But... But, but... *sobs like a broken hearted child* :weep: :bigeyes: :tantrum:
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 10:34 PM	I am sure if she turned around a year from now, and told them she has 'found her muse' and will now be able to complete it, they would HAPPILY put it back on the schedule. -I doubt it. Rich Baker has- dare I say adamantly- stated that the current incarnation of the Realms will not recieve any more support. If she arranged her novel in such a way that it took place in the 4e Realms, then I guess it could happen. But, as the novel should deal with elements and individuals that don't exist in the 4e Realms...
MarkusTay63 04-15-08, 11:09 PM	Well, you see, that the whole problem... Most of us don't believe in the existance of 4e FR. ;) Thank god I passed my save to disbelieve.... :P I hope all these new fans they are hoping for also buy novels. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 11:12 PM	-I...don't...get...it...:confused:
Dark Wizard 04-15-08, 11:49 PM	It is unfortunate this is how events turned. I hoped that with the release of Reclamation, I would have the impetus to start the entire series. Now without an actual ending, I'm not sure if I should. I am compelled towards series with closure.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-16-08, 02:36 PM	And I was so waiting for Reclamation. WotC is only giving us more reasons to hate them because of their changes. Right now I think they are only a bunch of self-serving jackasses. The book was canceled because Elaine couldn't finish the story. I'm upset too, but in this case the blame does not fall on WotC's "shoulders". WotC would have published the novel if Elaine had a manuscript ready for them--she didn't.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-16-08, 02:43 PM	It is unfortunate this is how events turned. I hoped that with the release of Reclamation, I would have the impetus to start the entire series. Now without an actual ending, I'm not sure if I should. I am compelled towards series with closure. Dark Wizard, check out the novels. Give them a shot. I don't regret having read them at all--for me, the fun was in reading the story arc, even though I know that now there are loose ends that will never be tied up. Heck, we're lucky we got an end to the Liriel novels (Windwalker was a long time in coming), as well as the story threads from Thornhold (see the EC anthology). The stories stand well enough on their own, in any case, and they have a great "Realms feel".
Alediran 04-16-08, 02:55 PM	The book was canceled because Elaine couldn't finish the story. I'm upset too, but in this case the blame does not fall on WotC's "shoulders". WotC would have published the novel if Elaine had a manuscript ready for them--she didn't. It's still their fault, since they killed Elaine's inspiration.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-16-08, 03:11 PM	It's still their fault, since they killed Elaine's inspiration. *shrugs* Maybe, I wouldn't want to speak for her on that.:) Elaine's posted about this on Candlekeep, and she doesn't seem to hold a grudge against WotC. It does indeed seem like she's choosing to leave the Realms as an author (WotC could always offer her more work, if they wanted).
Lykor 04-16-08, 08:31 PM	This sucks, I was looking forward to reading her next Realms book. Bah, now the list of FR books has dwindled significantly and now consists of Schend's sequal to Blackstaff. @Boards - There was an Eliath book? When did I miss that?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-16-08, 09:02 PM	@Boards - There was an Eliath book? When did I miss that? There is no "Elaith book", if by that you mean a novel with Elaith as the protagonist.
Lord Karsus 04-16-08, 11:12 PM	@Boards - There was an Eliath book? When did I miss that? -The closest there is to a novel with Elaith as the protagonist would be Elaine's short story concerning him in Best of the Realms III: The Stories of Elaine Cunningham, and her story in Realms of War.
Rauric 04-16-08, 11:46 PM	Perhaps she just needs more time to let all the new flavor of the setting sink in. She may wake up one morning a year from now and go "I know what I have to do with the story!" Hell Elaith and Kymil are both elves and can live that long. Danilo is a wizard and could live over 100 years. Never say never folks. Sometimes I don't know how I am going to run my game until the night before, I sometimes end up throwing out weeks of work for a new better idea.
Lord Karsus 04-17-08, 12:33 AM	If I do, it'll be just for the sake of dropping a verbal terd or two every now and then. -If that's the case, then don't bother.
Stigger 04-17-08, 04:23 AM	What happens happens, and its not like we have much control over the situation as it is. She had her reasons, and until she specifies what they were precisely, ascribing any motive to her actions whatsoever is pure, unadulterated speculation.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-17-08, 11:53 AM	-The closest there is to a novel with Elaith as the protagonist would be Elaine's short story concerning him in Best of the Realms III: The Stories of Elaine Cunningham, and her story in Realms of War. The latter story is all the more bittersweet now (for me), because IIRC it was supposed to be sort of a prelude to Reclamation. :-/
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-17-08, 11:57 AM	Perhaps she just needs more time to let all the new flavor of the setting sink in. She may wake up one morning a year from now and go "I know what I have to do with the story!" Actually, Elaine did say that very same thing in her announcement, but the problem is (as Markus mentioned) the release date for the novel can't be set to "whenever Elaine can figure out how to finish it." Also, while the new elements of the setting (I'm not talking about the NEW setting here, as the novel was supposed to be set in 1370 DR) may have been one reason why she couldn't "pull the pieces together", they may not have been the only reason. From what Elaine said, this novel was supposed to take on a lot of loose plot threads and tie them up. Maybe the story was problematic partly because it was so ambitious, and because the last novel in the series was published nine years ago. We don't know.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-17-08, 12:03 PM	To be honest, Elaine is better off not joining the 4ED fascist designers, and there by not writing the junk they will ask her to compile from their cesspool of ideas. Actually, Elaine has said (and said today, on Candlekeep) that the changes to the setting are not necessarily deal-breaker for her, and she would write another FR novel if she wanted to tell a story and thought the new setting would be a good fit for it. She hasn't said that she loves the 4E Realms (based on what she knows about it), but she hasn't forsworn them, either. She also said today that she'd write another short story if asked to.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-17-08, 12:04 PM	What happens happens, and its not like we have much control over the situation as it is. She had her reasons, and until she specifies what they were precisely, ascribing any motive to her actions whatsoever is pure, unadulterated speculation. I agree.
Green Elven Vampire 04-17-08, 02:12 PM	-If that's the case, then don't bother. Ahhh the love!
Lord Karsus 04-17-08, 04:31 PM	Ahhh the love! -Constructive and thought out criticism is fine. "Verbal terds"- as I am interpreting the term- aren't.
MarkusTay63 04-17-08, 08:11 PM	But his posts always make me laugh. :D And besides, I need someone around to make me look sane.... :P
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 04-17-08, 09:00 PM	DP
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 04-17-08, 09:01 PM	It's still their fault, since they killed Elaine's inspiration. That's not a legit reason, that's her job. It like me not wanting to kill cuz "we are in the wrong" (That came out LN/LE-ish huh :P )
Lord Karsus 04-17-08, 11:09 PM	That's not a legit reason, that's her job. It like me not wanting to kill cuz "we are in the wrong" (That came out LN/LE-ish huh :P ) -That's a court martial waiting to happen. Especially on the battlefield.
GreenKnight 04-18-08, 03:25 AM	It's still their fault, since they killed Elaine's inspiration. Do you have any facts to back that up, or is that just your assumption?
msatran 04-18-08, 06:41 PM	Wow. I was looking forward to reading that book too. The only one I was really looking forward to reading, as a matter of fact. Chris Perkins Must Be Stopped. Not because he is the arbiter of all this crap, but because he screwed over one of the few people who writes these novels who can ACTUALLY write. He needs to be stopped because he's effectively functionally illiterate. He should have just let Elaine write the one book and let the small changes go. And we have to let it go, too, sadly, or we'll all be bitter about this forever. On the bright side, it gives me an idea for a campaign about Moonblades.
Banpai 04-19-08, 07:49 PM	Wow. I was looking forward to reading that book too. The only one I was really looking forward to reading, as a matter of fact. Chris Perkins Must Be Stopped. Not because he is the arbiter of all this crap, but because he screwed over one of the few people who writes these novels who can ACTUALLY write. He needs to be stopped because he's effectively functionally illiterate. He should have just let Elaine write the one book and let the small changes go. And we have to let it go, too, sadly, or we'll all be bitter about this forever. On the bright side, it gives me an idea for a campaign about Moonblades. I really can“t see are reason to bash Chris Perkins for this - yes I waited for the book too and maybe one day we will get it in one way or the other but thins like this happen. :)
Lord Karsus 04-19-08, 07:56 PM	I really can“t see are reason to bash Chris Perkins for this... -He doesn't need a reason. ;)
Stigger 04-21-08, 09:30 AM	Well, that, and he point blank said that anything we had a problem with in the Realms was ultimately his doing, so that we should be blaming him for pretty much everything, rather than Rich Baker. As per his own request, we are blaming him, and feel he must be stopped. ;)
ElaineCunningham 04-21-08, 11:30 AM	Seriously, folks, let's not blame WotC collectively or any editor or game designer personally. If you have any further questions about this, stop by my Q&A thread on the Candlekeep board. I think all issues have been covered there. When something goes wrong, it's tempting to speculate why. It's tempting to project, extrapolate, and just plain old GUESS. The story is simple and straightforward: I couldn't finish the book to my satisfaction. WotC gave me lots of extra time. Still couldn't. Time ran out. Book got cancelled. There's a lot happening in the Realms--many changes, lots of new material, and dozens of stories to look forward to. I would be very grateful if we could let this go and move on to what comes next. Sweet water, light laughter, ec
18DELTA 04-21-08, 04:11 PM	Well, that, and he point blank said that anything we had a problem with in the Realms was ultimately his doing, so that we should be blaming him for pretty much everything, rather than Rich Baker. As per his own request, we are blaming him, and feel he must be stopped. ;) -:lightbulb Ok, Chris Perkins MUST be stopped!!!!;) -Thanks, Elaine. May any future Realms novels be as good as some of your other Realms novels.:) 18:P
Stigger 04-21-08, 06:08 PM	And with some luck, that should settle that. Though I still say we should Stop Chris Perkins, solely on principle... maybe some burning in effigy on the WotC lawn or something... a giant marshmallow Chris Perkins so we can engage in some good 'ol fashioned cannibalism by tasty marshmallowy proxy! :D
selunatic2397 04-21-08, 08:50 PM	And with some luck, that should settle that. Though I still say we should Stop Chris Perkins, solely on principle... maybe some burning in effigy on the WotC lawn or something... a giant marshmallow Chris Perkins so we can engage in some good 'ol fashioned cannibalism by tasty marshmallowy proxy! :D I am so there! And I am bringing the graham crackers and hershey bars! :D
msatran 04-22-08, 03:50 AM	Seriously, folks, let's not blame WotC collectively or any editor or game designer personally. If you have any further questions about this, stop by my Q&A thread on the Candlekeep board. I think all issues have been covered there. When something goes wrong, it's tempting to speculate why. It's tempting to project, extrapolate, and just plain old GUESS. The story is simple and straightforward: I couldn't finish the book to my satisfaction. WotC gave me lots of extra time. Still couldn't. Time ran out. Book got cancelled. There's a lot happening in the Realms--many changes, lots of new material, and dozens of stories to look forward to. I would be very grateful if we could let this go and move on to what comes next. Sweet water, light laughter, ec Sorry, Elaine. I can't. They banned me from there for talking about medieval history and what it was really like. :) And I can't let it go, because the 4e Realms is garbage. You were the last hope, and now you're gone.
ElaineCunningham 04-22-08, 08:28 AM	And I can't let it go.... If you're referring to your opinon of 4e, it's not my business to advise you. If you're referring to Reclamation, however, my advice stands: let it go. Do me a favor, folks: if you feel you must multi-task and make smores over a burning effigy, don't connect it to Reclamation. I do NOT need the bad karma. For the record, I'm not "gone." Today I'll be finishing up a script for a graphic novel adaptation of one of my Realms short stories (and no, I can't say which one just yet.) If the folks at WotC ask me to write a new short story for an upcoming anthology, I will happily do so. Future novels . . . I don't know. At present, my dance card is filling up with other things, so the question of whether I'd want to write another FR novel or whether WotC would want another one from me is moot. And for the record, I really don't know how either side would answer that question, nor am I inclined to speculate. I'm not a big fan of speculation. I like to apply the creative energy needed to answer "what if?" questions to fiction. IRL, I'd rather put facts on the table. At present, the facts I have, you have. See my statement, posted above, or visit the Candlekeep site for further clarification.
Charles Phipps 04-22-08, 12:38 PM	I think we all understand, Elaine. It's just, for a lot of us, the story is as fresh as it was 9 years ago. Superman Returns is a sequel to Richard Donner's Superman 2 and that's 20 years. For us, Arilyn and everyone's stories are as new as they were originally because everytime you want to read about them, they're right there. I understand your decision tremendously but....this is actually the saddest thing for 4E here.
Stigger 04-22-08, 01:14 PM	Note that I mentioned 'solely on principle' quite specifically. If you feel it will help the karma Elaine, we can melt some chocolate statues of you in effigy as well... :D
Charles Phipps 04-22-08, 01:18 PM	Clearly, we must all gather the hat around and purchase Elaine Cunningham. I was thinking we'd purchase the manuscript as rapid fans but I think it'd be more cost effective if we bought Elaine herself.
Stigger 04-22-08, 01:21 PM	Oh, now there's an idea... better one would be to buy the 4e dev/designers and keep them locked in the basement until they repent and see the errors of their ways... :evillaugh
Alediran 04-22-08, 01:40 PM	Oh, now there's an idea... better one would be to buy the 4e dev/designers and keep them locked in the basement until they repent and see the errors of their ways... :evillaugh Why keep them locked when we can make them retract themselves in front of everybody of what they did?
Rauric 04-22-08, 01:51 PM	Didn't she just say please don't connect the negativity to Reclaimation? I am pretty sure she did. I know the above commests are just jokes it probably would be best to just say your peace and move out of this thread out of respect for the author.
msatran 04-22-08, 02:01 PM	It's not the negativity that upsets us, Rauric, and you know it. It's the arrogance of the company in trying to force an excellent author who should be given a lot more free rein to toe the line. It's like telling J.K. Rowling Harry Potter needs a bigger shvantz.
Charles Phipps 04-22-08, 02:03 PM	It's not the negativity that upsets us, Rauric, and you know it. It's the arrogance of the company in trying to force an excellent author who should be given a lot more free rein to toe the line. It's like telling J.K. Rowling Harry Potter needs a bigger shvantz. Actually, to be fair to Elaine, I think it's a case of the fact that other problems than "Fourth Edition" drove her to be unable to do it. Though her statement she had to rewrite it 3 times is telling.
ElaineCunningham 04-22-08, 02:20 PM	Oy. I did have lots of room to manuvere, not to mention an extra year after the deadline. What I do NOT have are complaints against WotC's handling of this situation, or a desire to blame anyone but myself for not finishing the book. And now I am going to unsubscribe to this thread and move on. Best, ec
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-22-08, 03:32 PM	There's a lot happening in the Realms--many changes, lots of new material, and dozens of stories to look forward to. I'm not quite so sanguine about said changes, but I agree with your overall point.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-22-08, 03:33 PM	Do me a favor, folks: if you feel you must multi-task and make smores over a burning effigy, don't connect it to Reclamation. I do NOT need the bad karma. They were only joking, Elaine. At least, I saw no real maliciousness there.
Charles Phipps 04-22-08, 03:43 PM	A pity, we could have been discussing all the various and wonderful ways that Elaine Cunningham's characters have meant to us and we could have discussed how disappaointed/sad we'll never get a proper send off to them. And we wasted it on 4E bashing so Elaine won't read anymore. Darn.
Rauric 04-22-08, 03:52 PM	...
ElaineCunningham 04-22-08, 04:54 PM	They were only joking, Elaine. At least, I saw no real maliciousness there. RF sent me an email repeating her comment, quoted above. Just so you know, I do understand that most of the comments were joking and none of them were malicious. As for 4e, I am taking a wait-and-see approach. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find any novelist or game designer, whatever their opinions might be, who'd be comfortable participating in a 4e-bashing thread. That's a lot like hanging out with people who are telling ethnic or misogynistic jokes, in that your presence implies agreement. That would be . . . imprudent. Metaphorically speaking, any freelancer who takes that route might as well just take a crossbow and shoot himself in the foot. And therein lies another reason to bow out of the discussion. Message boards best serve the fans when the fans can direct the discussion according to their interests, without having to factor in all the pragmatic stuff writers and game designers have to consider. Okay, I have GOT to get this script finished today. Getting back to it, ec
Charles Phipps 04-22-08, 05:31 PM	We'll make you a deal, Elaine. I promise on my part to speak no ill will of 4E here if everyone else won't. Personally, I think we'd all love to hear more about what factors lead to the story being unable to be finished. It's disappointing and people were looking for someone to blame but you've clarified that it had nothing to do with WOTC's decisions. I guess we all just want you to know how much we love Arilyn, Danillo, and everyone else even if its been 9 years since the last book.
msatran 04-22-08, 05:33 PM	Actually, it was more what they did to Halruaa that sparked my anger. Elaine MADE Halruaa something, and before that, it wasn't anything.
Charles Phipps 04-22-08, 06:01 PM	Very true. But what's done is done.
MarkusTay63 04-22-08, 10:50 PM	There's a lot happening in the Realms--many changes, lots of new material, and dozens of stories to look forward to. I would be very grateful if we could let this go and move on to what comes next.That all depends on wheather or not you except the 4e 'Physchedeliic Hodgepodge' as the Realms. For most of us, its only the name applied to something new, and we have absolutely NO interest in reading anything about that setting... no matter how much we enjoy the author. I've never read anything by a Realms author that takes place outside the Realms, nor do I wish to. So, since there are no plans to write anything in the 'Old Realms', there are no stories to look forward to, as you suggest. The Realms we love are gone forever, and thats the bottom line.
Charles Phipps 04-22-08, 11:20 PM	So, since there are no plans to write anything in the 'Old Realms', there are no stories to look forward to, as you suggest. The Realms we love are gone forever, and thats the bottom line. And I pretty much say that's total :censored: But that's not what this thread is about. It also means that, pretty much, Elaines probably not going to participate further. Thanks, Markus, really. :rolleyes:
Therise 04-22-08, 11:24 PM	Actually, it was more what they did to Halruaa that sparked my anger. Elaine MADE Halruaa something, and before that, it wasn't anything. I liked Halruaa from the published sourcebook on the South, and I've been a player in a campaign that had several interesting adventures there. Very different feel from campaigns in the North, which is why it was cool taking one character from there out to explore other nations. Now it's completely (?) gone, I suppose, with 4E. Have we heard more about Halruaa than the short passage written for the recent Countdown to the Realms article? GHotR implies that Halruaa exploded, but having it be the only one to explode seems odd given that Thay, Rashemen, and Aglarond also had high concentrations of arcane wizardly peoples.
Rauric 04-22-08, 11:47 PM	I liked Halruaa from the published sourcebook on the South, and I've been a player in a campaign that had several interesting adventures there. Very different feel from campaigns in the North, which is why it was cool taking one character from there out to explore other nations. Now it's completely (?) gone, I suppose, with 4E. Have we heard more about Halruaa than the short passage written for the recent Countdown to the Realms article? GHotR implies that Halruaa exploded, but having it be the only one to explode seems odd given that Thay, Rashemen, and Aglarond also had high concentrations of arcane wizardly peoples. I think they live as mercs now since magic is viewed in a fearful way.
Lord Karsus 04-23-08, 12:41 AM	I've never read anything by a Realms author that takes place outside the Realms, nor do I wish to. -Both Elaine and Troy Denning have a few very good Star Wars novels, as does Salvatore (he only has 1, though). You really should pick some up, and learn about the setting.
Alediran 04-23-08, 10:38 AM	I think they live as mercs now since magic is viewed in a fearful way. Which is another reason for me not to buy $ed FR. I don't like settings where arcane magic is viewed with fear, Dragonlance turned me off with that, and it was one of the greatest things in the FR, to be a Wizard and be regarded as a hero.
Khaelieth 04-23-08, 10:48 AM	Which is another reason for me not to buy $ed FR. I don't like settings where arcane magic is viewed with fear, Dragonlance turned me off with that, and it was one of the greatest things in the FR, to be a Wizard and be regarded as a hero. The Rashemi and Jhaamdathans beg to differ;p i like the Forgotten Realms because there's diversity.
Alediran 04-23-08, 10:59 AM	The Rashemi and Jhaamdathans beg to differ;p But it's not the whole world. That's the difference with Dragonlance.
MarkusTay63 04-23-08, 11:02 AM	It also means that, pretty much, Elaines probably not going to participate further. Thanks, Markus, really. :rolleyes:You're thanking me for voicing my opinion? :confused: In that case, you're very welcome. I'm fairly certain its one of the few constitutional rights our current Gov't still allows us, so I exercise it freely. ;) If I personally have NO interest in something, like a game setting, then I am most certainly NOT going to read stories set in it - even if they win every award and accolade in existance. I don't care about quality writing when it comes to games settings - if I did, I wouldn't read 90% of what is written in them. I read GAME NOVELS for the lore, and the 4e ones will have NOTHING pertinent to anything I want to learn about. So, even though Elaine fits into that 10% that is actually capable of writing a good yarn, my point still stands. If she were to right an incredible book on Entomology I certainly wouldn't read it, because I have NO interest in the subject matter, despite her writing talents. I want to know about Elaine's characters from Reclamation, not 'Gortok' the Dragonborn and his Genasi side-kick Scrappy-Doo. Think about it - Why should we get interested in ANY of 4e's NPC's? Obviously when 5e rolls around (and they already said it will), all of those characters will be killed off again and their stories left unfinished... just like they did to us this time around. Burn me once, shame on you... I'm not stupid enough to get sucked into a new WotC setting just to be disappointed again in five years. :( -Both Elaine and Troy Denning have a few very good Star Wars novels, as does Salvatore (he only has 1, though). You really should pick some up, and learn about the setting.NO interest in the setting - see above. Medichlorins and Jar Jar Binks - enough said. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-23-08, 11:48 AM	Wow, Markus, I have to say, you seem a little less jolly today than usual.
Charles Phipps 04-23-08, 12:12 PM	Actually, Markus, I am pointing out that exercising your opinion IN THIS THREAD guarantees an author's lack of participation and a source of information. In other words, you're ruining it for the rest of us. So I'm expressing my opinion that your participation in the manner you did was really really really lousy of you to do. Thanks a lot. *heavy sarcasm*
Stigger 04-23-08, 02:13 PM	Silence implies consent on the chocolate statue issue, so effigy s'mores here we come! :D Seriously though, relax. Maybe you can prod Elaine into discussing it on Candlekeep rather than here, though from the sounds of it, her schedule probably prohibits a truly engaged discussion from taking place in the first place.
BARDOBARBAROS 04-23-08, 02:22 PM	The cancellation of Reclamation is a terrible event.. Let's see what follows from WoTc..
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 04-23-08, 02:30 PM	Markus IF you can't see the genius in Jar-Jar or Scrappy-Doo I have NOTHING else to say to you :mad: :P
MarkusTay63 04-23-08, 03:25 PM	Wow, Markus, I have to say, you seem a little less jolly today than usual.I took a three-day hiatus form here... and it felt good. I don't enjoy things I can't make sense of, and 4e FR is definately one of those. I get very agitated about 4e FR, because it just doesn't make any sense to me. If people like Elaine, RAS, Ed, and Paul Kemp are stuck writing in it, rather then the setting we enjoy, I see that as a very bad thing. Being happy about 'forthcoming novels' is like being happy that your Ex is dating again. :bored: And personally Charles, I don't think I'm the one that 'scared' her away - I have been trying to hammer into everyone's head that this was Elaine's decision, not WotC's, which is what Elaine wants people to know. Ergo, I'm just trying to spread the truth (as per her wishes). IIRC, it was YOUR 'Elaine Cunningham Memeorial' thread that had her blow a gasket, as per her post in the Candlekeep thread. Pot calling the Kettle black, much? ;) Anyway, I was looking forward to this novel in a big way, and I'm very upset by the fact that it will never see the light of day. Not placing blame - I happen to understand everyone else's position here (WotC and Elaine's). Its like when your favorite TV series gets cancelled, and you never find out if "they made it off the island", or whatever. Its called 'closure', and now none of us is getting it. Just so sad...
Charles Phipps 04-23-08, 04:20 PM	IIRC, it was YOUR 'Elaine Cunningham Memeorial' thread that had her blow a gasket, as per her post in the Candlekeep thread. That was just me having a really really bad title for it. I should have named it "A Farewell to Song and Swords."
Therise 04-23-08, 04:57 PM	Oy. I did have lots of room to manuvere, not to mention an extra year after the deadline. What I do NOT have are complaints against WotC's handling of this situation, or a desire to blame anyone but myself for not finishing the book. And now I am going to unsubscribe to this thread and move on. Best, ec Elaine already stated that she was going to unsubscribe from this thread and get back to real life, writing other things. See above. :) So as far as I can see, posts after the one she made above didn't really "drive her away". Let's take Elaine's good example and try to move on without further flinging of weirdness. Speculation about 4E has thrown everything into a full-on tizzy. ;)
Stigger 04-24-08, 11:39 AM	I shall continue flinging weirdness... its on my list of favorite things to do.
MarkusTay63 04-25-08, 12:04 PM	Elaine DID mention that she had to keep the 4e changes in mind, which does lead to our speculation that those changes could have, in fact, affected her ability to finish the manuscript, weather she is willing to admit (even to herself) that it was a contributing factor. Either way, I find myself unable to produce any FR lore as well any more, because it seems so pointless to do so for a DEAD setting. I just read a correction over at Enworld; we are only getting TWO books - the FRCG and the FRPG - the third one is an adventure. Then NOTHING after that. As of 2009, either way, FR no longer exists as an 'active' setting. It makes me wonder why they destroyed it at all, if they weren't planning on supporting it. Its like they did to GH - I'm beginning to believe more and more that the decision to 'change' FR was REALLY a decision to kill it off. Just like they killed GH (From the Ashes) to get 'grognards' to move to the Realms, they are doing the same now, herding us toward Eberron. Only this time, I'm not 'Running for the Cliff' like some ignorant Lemming. Rather then play Eberron, I would rather play Iron Kingdoms, the setting Eberron is so blatantly ripped-off from. Sorry, this had little to do with Elaine's novel, but it's just one more 'log on the fire', so to speak. :(
Alediran 04-25-08, 12:15 PM	I agree with you MT. I'll continue playing FR as they are, develop more lore in The Realms Vault along anybody who wants to continue with the setting and doesn't likes 4ed, and not buy any single WotC product at all. Oh, and buy from the competition. I'm collecting nWoD books at this moment, as soon as my FR campaign is over I'll DM Mage: the Awakening.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-25-08, 01:11 PM	Seriously though, relax. Maybe you can prod Elaine into discussing it on Candlekeep rather than here, though from the sounds of it, her schedule probably prohibits a truly engaged discussion from taking place in the first place. That's right, and I've gotten the impression that she's said all she has to say on the subject, anyway, and is more or less tired of discussing it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-25-08, 01:14 PM	I took a three-day hiatus form here... and it felt good. Glad to hear it.:) Being happy about 'forthcoming novels' is like being happy that your Ex is dating again. :bored: I know, I can't really be happy about forthcoming 4E Realms novels, myself. I am looking forward to some of them, like Blackstaff Tower. The sad thing is, though, that it will be set in a place that I don't recognize as the Realms.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-25-08, 01:17 PM	Elaine DID mention that she had to keep the 4e changes in mind, which does lead to our speculation that those changes could have, in fact, affected her ability to finish the manuscript, weather she is willing to admit (even to herself) that it was a contributing factor. Right, but some changes that affected her occured before 4E was even announced, such as the changes to the way Moonblades work (see the Bladesinger story in Realms of the Elves, and the "Hope Blades" in Blackstaff), as well as the Hidden Realm being put on the shelf in favor of a resettled Myth Drannor.
msatran 04-25-08, 01:32 PM	The resettled Myth Drannor thing burns my tucas. It took a great adventure setting and tanked it. Now if you want to adventure there, you're nothing more than an arbiter for elvish real estate agents.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-25-08, 01:51 PM	The resettled Myth Drannor thing burns my tucas. It took a great adventure setting and tanked it. Now if you want to adventure there, you're nothing more than an arbiter for elvish real estate agents. Yeah, you've said that before. :rofl: I didn't like the resettlement of Myth Drannor, myself. I brought it up because with the Last Mythal trilogy, the whole reason for having a Hidden Realm in the first place kind of disappeared.
MarkusTay63 04-25-08, 04:20 PM	LOL - I personally always felt that Myth Drannor was the correct place for an 'Elven Resurgence', not the 'North Pole' (which is really pretty derivitive as a home for Elves). :P As much as I hate the idea that Rich 'erased' Elaine's lore and "took her tree" away, I felt it really was better off there... I just wish that it had stayed 'in the future'. I liked Myth Drannor as the 'eventual' home for the Tree of Life - something the Elves could dream about and work towards. Having it as one more settled land (after the designers specifically stated there wasn't enough uncivilized areas :confused: ) is counter-productive to the game setting, and only managed to allow the authers to market another terrible RSE series. Of course, in my games, the Elves are really 'bad guys', so that makes MY Myth Drannor a lot like Mirkwood - the Elves are MUCH worse then the Giant Spiders. :devil: If I continue my game into Faerūn's alternate future, which I might, the Cormanthor Elves will make the return of Shade look like a Tea Party. :dancin:
Stigger 04-25-08, 04:54 PM	I'm still trying to figure out where exactly all these 'civilized' areas are... not many on the map outside of the littoral regions of the oceans and seas. Interior areas seem pretty sparse on civilization, with only scattered settlements along rivers. One wonders what happened to that 'only controlling the region for three days ride' thing (maybe a very tenuous 60-70 mile radius at best I think) that we used to have.
Charles Phipps 04-25-08, 05:36 PM	Elaine DID mention that she had to keep the 4e changes in mind, which does lead to our speculation that those changes could have, in fact, affected her ability to finish the manuscript, weather she is willing to admit (even to herself) that it was a contributing factor. That's rampant Tin-foil hat speculation. Also, there's plenty of reason to produce lore for a dead setting. You know, LIKE FINISHING OFF THE STORY SHE SET OUT TO DO. :-p
Lord Karsus 04-25-08, 07:08 PM	LOL - I personally always felt that Myth Drannor was the correct place for an 'Elven Resurgence', not the 'North Pole' (which is really pretty derivitive as a home for Elves). :P As much as I hate the idea that Rich 'erased' Elaine's lore and "took her tree" away, I felt it really was better off there... I just wish that it had stayed 'in the future'. I liked Myth Drannor as the 'eventual' home for the Tree of Life - something the Elves could dream about and work towards. Having it as one more settled land (after the designers specifically stated there wasn't enough uncivilized areas :confused: ) is counter-product to the game setting, and only managed to allow the authers to market another terrible RSE series. Of course, in my games, the Elves are really 'bad guys', so that makes MY Myth Drannor a lot like Mirkwood - the Elves are MUCH worse then the Giant Spiders. :devil: If I continue my game into Faerūn's alternate future, which I might, the Cormanthor Elves will make the return of Shade look like a Tea Party. :dancin: -The goals of Myth Drannor and Auseriel were different. As per Oacenth's Vow (I think I might have spelled that wrong, off the top of my head. It doesn't look right to me.), the Elves of Cormanthyr, and Myth Drannor need to peacefully interact and get along with the other residents of Cormanthor. Auseriel was created to be a secret safehaven for Elvenkind. -So, while Myth Drannor might be better symbolically, if one is looking for a resurgence of the Elven race, Auseriel is suited better, being as that's what it was designed for. -All of that is neither here nor there, or course.
Charles Phipps 04-25-08, 07:15 PM	I agree. I don't see why Myth Drannor should have changed anything. Of course, I don't understand why they bothered to move the stupid tree. It seemed a deliberate kick on Elaine's stuff.
Lord Karsus 04-25-08, 07:35 PM	I agree. I don't see why Myth Drannor should have changed anything. Of course, I don't understand why they bothered to move the stupid tree. It seemed a deliberate kick on Elaine's stuff. -While it may seem like that, Rich has stated before that he was unaware of what happened to the Tree of Souls. He was under the impression that it was planted on Evermeet, which, of course, was not the case. It was, indeed, given to Lamruil when he left to found Auseriel in the north. To avoid a retcon, or other funny business, the Tree of Souls had to be returned to Evermeet before the Last Mythal trilogy took place. Thus, before we even knew it's name(!) Auseriel was sacked.
Charles Phipps 04-25-08, 07:59 PM	Yes, well it did seem like it was a rather odd choice to be honest anyway.
Lord Karsus 04-25-08, 08:07 PM	Yes, well it did seem like it was a rather odd choice to be honest anyway. -The location of Myth Drannor? No, not really. Cormanthyr was considered, by some, to be the pinnacle of Elven society and domination. I, personally, don't believe this to be true, and count Aryvandaar as the pinnacle of Elven society and domination. But, anyway, when Cormanthyr fell, it large signaled the end of the Elven presence on mainland Faerūn. Symbolically, it marked the final step in the "transition" of stewardship of the continent between Elves and Humans. So, were Elves to experience a "rebirth", one could easily argue that Myth Drannor would be the place for it to take place. It was the site that heralded the end of an era, and it will be the site to herald in a new era. -And, if you were talking about the Tree of Souls, again, the same thing. By 2e lore, being within a close proxemity of the Tree of Souls was the only way Elven magi could use Elven High Magic. When planet, this area of influence would expand, over time. So, where ever the Tree of Souls was to be planted would mark a new age in Elven life on Abeir-Toril. Of couirse, 3e changed those rules, but the symbolic signifigance of the tree remained. -Putting the two together, while I wouldn't personally do it- is an easy conclusion to make.
Charles Phipps 04-25-08, 08:11 PM	-The location of Myth Drannor? No, the North Pole,
MarkusTay63 04-25-08, 08:55 PM	But it's the home of Sandy Claws! :D And Lamuriel (sp?) is just perfect for one of those lazy, work-once-a-year Toy-Making Elves. :P I think 'Frosty' kidnapped his squeeze, BTW, with some help from the 'Bumble'. ;) That's rampant Tin-foil hat speculation.But I love Tin-Foil Hats! Especially in Thunderstorms!!! :dancin: Note: I did use the word 'speculation', as a way of explaining how we are connecting Elaine's inability to finish the book to all of the '4e madness'. I never say that the speculation was correct, because we certainly don't know the contributing factors, and I sincerely don't think even Elaine can fully understand why finishing the book eluded her (if she did, she might be able to workout the problem and finish it). I am not mad at Elaine OR WotC on this one - I can't really see how anyone is at fault simply because her muse failed her. It is a big disappointment, however, and people do love to place blame, especially in the middle of a 'witch hunt'.
Lord Karsus 04-25-08, 08:57 PM	No, the North Pole, -It met all of the criteria that was needed: a secretive place where the kingdom could exist in peace and solitude.
Charles Phipps 04-25-08, 09:01 PM	I think that's kind of a dumb attitude for the elves to take. Evermeet proves there's no such place on Faerun.
msatran 04-25-08, 09:04 PM	Curse you, Papa Smurf!!!!! You've been living in the body of an evil elf all these years!!!!
Lord Karsus 04-25-08, 09:05 PM	I think that's kind of a dumb attitude for the elves to take. Evermeet proves there's no such place on Faerun. -All they want is a place to be left alone, away from others who are N'Tel'Quess. Is that so much to ask?
Charles Phipps 04-25-08, 09:49 PM	-All they want is a place to be left alone, away from others who are N'Tel'Quess. Is that so much to ask? They can go back to Faerie then. :P
Lord Karsus 04-25-08, 10:01 PM	They can go back to Faerie then. :P -Apparently, from what I've gathered from the 4e previws, the new Faerie is a pretty crappy place, with ongoing gang-turf wars...
MarkusTay63 04-26-08, 12:15 AM	And all those Avariels doing 'Flyby' shootings.... :P Terrible place, that 'Fairyhood' - has been ever since Mr. Rogers died. :(
Stigger 04-26-08, 01:39 AM	Maybe its just my age, but I find the older I get, the more I want optimism in my gaming to counterbalance the ugliness of reality... there's more than enough atrocity and horror in the real world for me to ever want to introduce it at the table. I don't find it cathartic in the slightest, so maybe I'm just eternally destined to miss the point of this PoL crap.
Charles Phipps 04-26-08, 02:18 AM	Maybe its just my age, but I find the older I get, the more I want optimism in my gaming to counterbalance the ugliness of reality... there's more than enough atrocity and horror in the real world for me to ever want to introduce it at the table. I don't find it cathartic in the slightest, so maybe I'm just eternally destined to miss the point of this PoL crap. I think there's ultimately room for both in the Forgotten Realms. Let's face it, A Song of Fire and Ice is a very different story from The Lord of the Rings. The Forgotten Realms have also always been a place of constant and never-ending upheaval so this is not nearly as big a change as people think it is.
Rauric 04-26-08, 07:44 AM	Song is more POL than FR is. Song is so depressing at times but it is POL 100%. FR is not becoming Points of Light as much as people say it will be. I never wanted to run a game in FR except in one of the "Main" areas. This revamp may change that.
Lord Karsus 04-26-08, 12:36 PM	Terrible place, that 'Fairyhood' - has been ever since Mr. Rogers died. :( -That was the Land of Make-Believe...And, I'm not sure if Avariel are going to continue to exist. I mean, they don't exactly fit into the Elf-Drow-Eladrin triumverate, there.
Stigger 04-26-08, 01:08 PM	Maybe they'll suddenly develop scales and move into that whole dragonborn whatever it is... no retcon though, just a... drow induced... retrovirus... yes, that's it.
MarkusTay63 04-26-08, 02:29 PM	I think 'Winged' will be an Eladrin Exarch or Paragon path, but thats pure supposition on my part. The same can then be applied to the Lythari also. Think about it - with only three Elven races, all of the others would have to be 'paths' off of those three. Technically, sea-Elves should have been a PrC (3e) or Path (4e) all along - they were created by normal Elves 'turning to the sea'. I'm not saying the fluff for the Avariels or Lythari will still work, but mechanically, making them 'paths' off the main groups seems to be the way to go with 4e's mechanics.
lowtech 04-27-08, 01:00 AM	-While it may seem like that, Rich has stated before that he was unaware of what happened to the Tree of Souls. He was under the impression that it was planted on Evermeet, which, of course, was not the case. It was, indeed, given to Lamruil when he left to found Auseriel in the north. To avoid a retcon, or other funny business, the Tree of Souls had to be returned to Evermeet before the Last Mythal trilogy took place. Thus, before we even knew it's name(!) Auseriel was sacked. Rich Baker never read Evermeet: Island of Elves, and he expect us to believe he is a true Realms fan? Wasn't he kind of getting paid to keep up with Realmslore (something we did for free)? His credibility just keeps deteriorating...how do I sign up for the "Rich Baker Must Be Stopped" army?
Charles Phipps 04-27-08, 01:11 AM	He might have read it and forgot that detail.
Stigger 04-27-08, 10:53 AM	Give someone the benefit of the doubt around here when the motives behind 4e are involved? Too touchy a subject for that to happen anytime soon...
MarkusTay63 04-27-08, 11:00 AM	DETAIL? :confused: It was the friggin' ending!!! And he has already admitted that he doesn't read everything - including several products that bear his name (Look back through the designers thread if you don't believe me). How hard would it be if the designers 'passed around' the novels first - let Ed, George, Elaine, RAS, etc... all read them BEFORE they get published with the mistakes? Why is their NO ONE in charge of continuity for a shared setting? Some authors do this on their own (I have read of several instances of Ed and RAS 'helping' Elaine along with things, and vice-versa). Some authrs do it, and some just don't give-a-s__t. It really is pretty apparent who they are, and how they really don't care if what they write agrees with the setting or not. In fact, rather then trying harder to stick to canon facts, by doing more research, they destroyed the setting and re-wrote everything to fit THEIR facts. Pretty damn selfish, if you ask me. The needs of the few DO NOT out-weigh the needs of the many. :ahem: Anyone who thinks the Spellplague happened and the hundred year timeshift was done to 'benefit the game' is buying all the BS they are putting out. The lie has been put to that over and over again. FR has become nothing more then a playground for a couple of egomaniacs, IMHO. Thats the REAL reason I despise 4e FR so much - no matter how good the material they come up with is, I will still hate it, because I know the real reasons behind it. Someone just couldn't be bothered to read anyone else's lore - they thought only their's is good enough. I think certain people should look up the term 'shared world', and realize that you DON'T over-write other people's lore. Some folks just never learned how to play nice in the sandbox.
Stigger 04-27-08, 11:09 AM	Harshly put, but I can't say I disagree much...
Lord Karsus 04-27-08, 11:56 AM	I think 'Winged' will be an Eladrin Exarch or Paragon path, but thats pure supposition on my part. The same can then be applied to the Lythari also. -I'm not familiar fully with the concept of 'paths' yet, even though a few people have explained it to me. Basically, it's more or less like a PrC, yes? In that case, that makes no sense- while it works with Lythari, and Elf just can't randomly turn into a Avariel naturally, without the outside aid of magic. And, what about all of those naturally born Avariel? Technically, sea-Elves should have been a PrC (3e) or Path (4e) all along - they were created by normal Elves 'turning to the sea'. -Deep Sashelas created the Aquatic Elves. I'm not saying the fluff for the Avariels or Lythari will still work, but mechanically, making them 'paths' off the main groups seems to be the way to go with 4e's mechanics. -Oh...Well, never mind that first point in the post, then. ;) Rich Baker never read Evermeet: Island of Elves, and he expect us to believe he is a true Realms fan? -I didn't say that. All I said was that he was unaware of that particular detail when he began writing the novel.
MarkusTay63 04-27-08, 04:33 PM	-Deep Sashelas created the Aquatic Elves.Only in E:IoE According to older lore, an Elf simply 'wishes it', and the transformation occurs. I suppose, the reverse is also possible, but I don't know of any canon instance of that happening (outside of The Little Mermaid :P ). Now, the two can easily go hand-in-hand, which I believe is how I wrote it in the physiology article (been awhile - I really don't remember the details). When an Elf 'fondly wishes to become one with the Sea', then perhaps it is indeed Deep Sashelas that is answering that 'prayer'. Either way, and Elf can simply become a sea Elf, which lends itself to the whole 'Path concept' quite well. Many of the Elves displaced during the Crown Wars (and even earlier, in the War of Three Leaves) turned to the Sea of Fallen Stars when their homelands were destroyed... But you of all people should know that. ;) BTW, in order to understand Paths, you would have to have played a MORPG - basically, they are the same as 'talents' in games like WoW - you have a 'Talent Tree', and as you picked the ones you want (and they range in levels too), new ones 'open up' to you (like pre-requisites). This means that the more 'talents' (D&D's Feats) you take down a certain path, the more 'focused' (and therefore powerful) your character becomes. If you don't specialize, and just take talents/feats all over the place, then you never have any of the more powerful abilities available to you. Good for RPing, but not so great in an Instance (Dungeon), where ever iota of power is neccessary.
Lord Karsus 04-27-08, 04:49 PM	Only in E:IoE -Actually, no, according to Demihuman Deities. According to older lore, an Elf simply 'wishes it', and the transformation occurs. I suppose, the reverse is also possible, but I don't know of any canon instance of that happening (outside of The Little Mermaid :P ). -There are both High Magic rituals that accomplish this, and the scene in Evermeet: Island of the Elves where Deep Sashelas shares his blessing. BTW, in order to understand Paths, you would have to have played a MORPG - basically, they are the same as 'talents' in games like WoW - you have a 'Talent Tree', and as you picked the ones you want (and they range in levels too), new ones 'open up' to you (like pre-requisites). This means that the more 'talents' (D&D's Feats) you take down a certain path, the more 'focused' (and therefore powerful) your character becomes. If you don't specialize, and just take talents/feats all over the place, then you never have any of the more powerful abilities available to you. Good for RPing, but not so great in an Instance (Dungeon), where ever iota of power is neccessary. -That, I understand. Maybe it's the 'Destiny' thing I don't get. Or the 'Path'. I don't know anymore...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-27-08, 09:25 PM	-To avoid a retcon, or other funny business, the Tree of Souls had to be returned to Evermeet before the Last Mythal trilogy took place. Thus, before we even knew it's name(!) Auseriel was sacked. It's funny, how things work out sometimes.:(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-27-08, 09:27 PM	-Apparently, from what I've gathered from the 4e previws, the new Faerie is a pretty crappy place, with ongoing gang-turf wars... It's got pretty white Eladrin cities, though.:)
Lord Karsus 04-28-08, 12:31 AM	It's funny, how things work out sometimes.:( -Ironic, isn't is. But, it is what it is. It's got pretty white Eladrin cities, though.:) -And when those drive-by Magic Missileings start, the rivers will be running red with blood.
Stigger 04-28-08, 02:46 AM	Presuming they make the attack rolls...
Khaelieth 04-28-08, 04:03 AM	Magic missiles... Force and all that. They'll even take down your shadow!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-28-08, 12:31 PM	-And when those drive-by Magic Missileings start, the rivers will be running red with blood. Come on, LK, think of it. Magical eladrin cities in an enchanted forest plane, ruled over by benign but flighty fey lords.:D
WotC_RichBaker 04-28-08, 12:35 PM	Not true. I did, in fact, read Evermeet. I didn't see anything that suggested that the Tree could only have one sapling, but I might have missed it. Rich Baker never read Evermeet: Island of Elves, and he expect us to believe he is a true Realms fan? Wasn't he kind of getting paid to keep up with Realmslore (something we did for free)? His credibility just keeps deteriorating...how do I sign up for the "Rich Baker Must Be Stopped" army?
Lord Karsus 04-28-08, 12:36 PM	Presuming they make the attack rolls... -Oh, shoot, that's right! You need to roll for Magic Missile now! :doh: Come on, LK, think of it. Magical eladrin cities in an enchanted forest plane, ruled over by benign but flighty fey lords.:D -See, in theory, that does sound nice. But, from what little I've read of the new Plane of Faerie (Feywild), I don't think it sounds like that. From what I've gathered, there are Quickling spies who spy on certain enclaves for other enclaves, evil Dryads with 'Combat Forms'...It doesn't sounds like a very nice place.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-28-08, 12:41 PM	Oh, the Feywild is not by any means supposed to be safe and secure (even the eladrins aren't "safe", especially if you tick them off). But it sounds like an interesting place to visit, and very "elfy.":)
Rauric 04-28-08, 01:58 PM	The Seelie and Unseelie courts represents (or could) the two types of attitudes fey have towrds mortals.
Alediran 04-28-08, 02:23 PM	Presuming they make the attack rolls... Please, don't remind me that awful idea, along with the nerfing of Generalist Wizards, is making my stomach churn.
Alediran 04-28-08, 02:24 PM	The Seelie and Unseelie courts represents (or could) the two types of attitudes fey have towrds mortals. But they don't need to be in the same plane. The Seelie court was in Arborea, while the Unseelie was in the Shadow Plane. That was a lot better than now, because finding an Unseelie in Arborea had an omnious meaning, not it's just another turf-war.
Lord Karsus 04-28-08, 03:06 PM	But they don't need to be in the same plane. The Seelie court was in Arborea, while the Unseelie was in the Shadow Plane. That was a lot better than now, because finding an Unseelie in Arborea had an omnious meaning, not it's just another turf-war. -The Seelie and Unseelie "Courts" both being (more or less) centered in the Plane of Faerie (Feywild) and having considerable power there is preferable, in my mind. Whenever I think of the plane, I think of twilight settling over random woods. While it is a very peaceful time, sure, with crickets and frogs chirping, and lightning bugs fading in and out into view, there are also very hidden dangers- the jaguar slowly stalking it's prey, the snakes adeptly crawling through trees, and of course, the ever present and slowly appearing darkness. They Plane of Faerie (Feywild) is a paradox- it is both safe and dangerous at the same time. -I don't particularly like what I am hearing- with "shiny white" Eldadrin settlements as "Points of Light" in a dark world, with more or less "gang wars" between settlements as those aspects don't particularly fit with my image of what the Plane is/was like. I tend to view it as more mystical, but in a slightly more worldly way, if that makes sense.
ElaineCunningham 04-28-08, 05:25 PM	LOL - I personally always felt that Myth Drannor was the correct place for an 'Elven Resurgence', not the 'North Pole' (which is really pretty derivitive as a home for Elves). :P As much as I hate the idea that Rich 'erased' Elaine's lore and "took her tree" away, I felt it really was better off there... I just wish that it had stayed 'in the future'. Thanks for the thought, but from my point of view, no one "took my tree." :) I can see how you'd assume that, but here's a little behind-the-scenes info. I did not submit a story to the Realms of the Elves anthology, but I outlined and began a (long) short story entitled "Tree of Souls" that ended up much as Markus described. The story, which was influenced by James Hilton's fantasy classic Lost Horizons, led Lamruil to decide NOT to plant the tree in a valley hidden in the remote northlands. The final resting place of the Tree of Souls was left an issue for the future. Phil Athans had the proposal for this story, but since it was not published, there's no reason to assume Richard Baker had any knowledge of it. Even if he did, why would he take into consideration the direction suggested by an unpublished story? For anyone who wished to steer elf lore away from the direction suggested by Evermeet, it would be more logical to assume that things did indeed go as that book suggested, and then come up with an alternate device, such as multiple saplings.
Rauric 04-28-08, 06:45 PM	I like the idea of two groups of fey with different beliefs or attitudes living on one plane. I do not see seelie as "good" fey though, just not as dark and twisted as the unseelie. On a side note I realized the other day my first PC is going to be a dwarf wizard. I am happy with what I have seen so far and have heard that with enough feats I could suit him up with armor maybe. The paragon path Battlemage is going to make me want to make him more than just a wielder of magic I think.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-28-08, 09:35 PM	I can see how you'd assume that, but here's a little behind-the-scenes info. I did not submit a story to the Realms of the Elves anthology, but I outlined and began a (long) short story entitled "Tree of Souls" that ended up much as Markus described. The story, which was influenced by James Hilton's fantasy classic Lost Horizons, led Lamruil to decide NOT to plant the tree in a valley hidden in the remote northlands. The final resting place of the Tree of Souls was left an issue for the future. Interesting. Thanks for letting us know.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-28-08, 09:38 PM	-I don't particularly like what I am hearing- with "shiny white" Eldadrin settlements as "Points of Light" in a dark world, with more or less "gang wars" between settlements as those aspects don't particularly fit with my image of what the Plane is/was like. I tend to view it as more mystical, but in a slightly more worldly way, if that makes sense. Well, it's just one of many concepts you can use or not use as you see fit.:) I happen to like the new concept of the Feywild, but I wouldn't necessarily use it for the Realms.
Lord Karsus 04-28-08, 09:58 PM	Well, it's just one of many concepts you can use or not use as you see fit.:) I happen to like the new concept of the Feywild, but I wouldn't necessarily use it for the Realms. -I'm not using it anywhere, but...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-29-08, 11:52 AM	I would use it in a world that used the 4E concepts laid out in Worlds and Monsters.:) I don't like how the FR is being twisted to fit into the 4E mold, but for a new setting, I would enjoy said concepts.
lowtech 04-29-08, 02:55 PM	Not true. I did, in fact, read Evermeet. I didn't see anything that suggested that the Tree could only have one sapling, but I might have missed it. Fair enough, I apologize for that specific allegation.
MarkusTay63 04-29-08, 04:59 PM	As do I. :embarrass The fault, then, lies in not fully understanding the original nature/intent of the tree, from the Elves of Evermeet sourcebook. It was SUPPOSED to go to a new kingdom of the Elves, at some point in the future (I wish it had stayed that way), when the Elves finally decided to 'return' to the mainland. I felt Myth Drannor the better of the two choices, given that its hard to imagine the 'North Pole' as Faerūn-proper (even if they are connected). Bear in mind, that I did write a short piece of fan-fiction based on Lamuiral's journey, which can be viewed over at the Vault in the Elven Netbook thread, under the 'Snow Elves' entry. ;) So, even though I did not like the original placement of the tree, I still went along with it and built upon the lore. I am loathe to change established lore, even if something better comes along (like Myth Drannor).
18DELTA 04-29-08, 06:34 PM	-You guys/gals are CRAZY!:looloo: -I finally finished Blackstaff(Better late than never) OMG THAT WAS A GOOD NOVEL. So I am now wondering what is going to happen to the City of Hope in 4E. I am also wondering what is going to happen to Tsarra(sp) in 4E. Questions, questions, questions??? 18D:)
MarkusTay63 04-29-08, 06:44 PM	All will be revealed in Blackstaff Tower, although I asked Steven Schend about Rymanthiin (sp?) over at CK, and he says he has no clue or input on what WotC does with it come 4e. So, if someone at wizards didn't like it, it could come and go as quickly and easily as Auseriel did. :( If it IS gone, thats one more strike against those who crap on other people's lore.
Rauric 04-29-08, 11:00 PM	Here is the thing, I have been reading FR since 87 and playing in it since 2001. I have no clue what Rymanthiin is. If I read a supplement that ignored that lore or retconned it It would not bother me since I had no real clue what it is in the first place. Kinda don't care either. I just use FR as a backdrop to my games and like some of the stories and ideas about the place. I don't live and breathe the Realms. I think many people that play in the Realms are like this. Maybe that is why some things get lost in the shuffle or ignored by Suits or designers. Because maybe to corporate the lore buffs don't matter as much since they make up a smaller % of the consumer of FR books. Being a comic fan though I used to hate it when they retconned things just to tell a story a certain way so I understand where people are coming from at times. I am crazy though I guess because I like the whole "One More Day" idea in Spiderman. :D
Lord Karsus 04-29-08, 11:16 PM	I felt Myth Drannor the better of the two choices, given that its hard to imagine the 'North Pole' as Faerūn-proper (even if they are connected). -As I explained, the location of Auseriel was a far superior one, as the settlement was not intended on being a shining beacon and a signal of the return of the Elves of Faerūn. It was supposed to be a secret settlement that was the last bastion of complete Elven homogenity that was a secret from the world at large. So, if someone at wizards didn't like it, it could come and go as quickly and easily as Auseriel did. -At least it finally got a name. I was sick and tired of referring to it as 'Prince Lamruil's Realm'. Here is the thing, I have been reading FR since 87 and playing in it since 2001. I have no clue what Rymanthiin is. -It was introduced in the aforementioned Blackstaff. -And, yes, you've said that schpiel a billion times already. I think we get it. :P
Rauric 04-29-08, 11:28 PM	Ok, I thought it was something that was from from 2E. I like Blackstaff the NPC so I should read that book. Especially since he will be alive in my 4E Realms because he is better than awesome! :D Danilo and Elaith will be in my Realms also I figure. Elaith makes for a great kingpin of crime in my book. I also Like that he is probably a good guy deep down. Dan was just a fun character.
Lord Karsus 04-29-08, 11:30 PM	I like Blackstaff the NPC so I should read that book. -It was one of the best Forgotten Realms books, if not THE best Forgotten Realms book, written in the past couple of years.
Stigger 04-30-08, 01:35 AM	I'd go with THE myself... even if I hated the ending. Though I'll say that what Rauric says has a great deal of merit to it. But I'll also point out that it requires a certain perspective that not everyone is going to share, nor one that they necessarily want to share, if you take my meaning. ;)
18DELTA 04-30-08, 04:49 AM	-So...what is/was The High Fire Crown? I hope The City of Hope is in 4E. Is it in the Elven Notebook? 18D:)
Stigger 04-30-08, 08:08 AM	The crown was a collection of Kiira as I recall, 12 or 13 maybe, that housed the souls (or something like that) of various Elven High Mages that was the result of the creation of the Mythal of Myth Drannor... I think, but I'm going completely off of a shaky memory on the subject.
Alediran 04-30-08, 08:33 AM	Not of Myth Drannor, but of the Elven Court.
Stigger 04-30-08, 08:34 AM	Ah, could very well be. Only read up on it once, and that was quite a while ago.
Alediran 04-30-08, 08:44 AM	It is, Myth Drannor is one of my areas of expertise. I've probably read Fall of Myth Drannor five times while I was making Cormanthor's history entry for the Elven Netbook.
Stigger 04-30-08, 08:46 AM	Never got into it... was a bit too depressing for me when it came out, due to external circumstances, so I never managed to read it all the way through. Probably should some day, but as I don't go into that region much, I have little incentive to. Something to do this weekend maybe.
Lord Karsus 04-30-08, 09:49 AM	Is it in the Elven Notebook? -The Crown or the City? One is, and one isn't. ;) :P
18DELTA 04-30-08, 11:13 AM	-The Crown or the City? One is, and one isn't. ;) :P -Well...BOTH in that case!!!;) :P -I tried to read about it in the Old Edition Downloads, The Fall OF Myth Drannor but the print was to d@mn small!!!:rolleyes: 18D:gel:
Lord Karsus 04-30-08, 12:19 PM	-Well...BOTH in that case!!!;) :P -In that case...Again, one is, and one isn't. :P -The Highfire Crown is, and the City of Hope isn't (at least, right now).
Stigger 04-30-08, 04:45 PM	I don't suppose you've ever considered using the zoom feature with that Delta? :P
18DELTA 04-30-08, 09:36 PM	I don't suppose you've ever considered using the zoom feature with that Delta? :P -:eek: :uh-huh: :blush: :doh: 18D:D
Stigger 05-01-08, 02:30 AM	To reiterate, :P
MarkusTay63 05-01-08, 12:54 PM	Never got into it... was a bit too depressing for me when it came out, due to external circumstances, so I never managed to read it all the way through. Probably should some day, but as I don't go into that region much, I have little incentive to. Something to do this weekend maybe.I have owned it since day 1... and have NEVER read it. :embarrass Too much 'Elfiness' for me. :P And yet, I usually run my FR games around the Dales... go figure. :confused:
Alediran 05-01-08, 02:09 PM	Stigg, MT both of you are loosing some of the greatest battle descriptions in the history of FR, plenty of material for interesting battles. One of them, a masterfuly tactic made by elves killed half the Army of Darkness with 40 strikes of hammer and ended with the existance of one member of the Khov'Annilesa.
MarkusTay63 05-01-08, 02:21 PM	RoMD, or the Arcane Age product? :confused:
Alediran 05-01-08, 02:41 PM	Fall of Myth Drannor.
MarkusTay63 05-01-08, 02:48 PM	Thank You. I'll look into that later, on your recomendation. Right now I'm in Silvermoon, trying to help the towers of the Sun and Moon... In Warcraft... I kid you not... Makes you wonder who is copying who at this point. :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-01-08, 02:49 PM	Right now I'm in Silvermoon, trying to help the towers of the Sun and Moon... In Warcraft... I kid you not... Makes you wonder who is copying who at this point. :rolleyes: Ha ha!
Lord Karsus 05-01-08, 05:22 PM	Thank You. I'll look into that later, on your recomendation. -That can be downloaded for free on the WotC site, all plain and good, if you have trouble finding it...;)
18DELTA 05-01-08, 05:23 PM	To reiterate, :P :P 18D;)
MarkusTay63 05-01-08, 05:59 PM	@Delta - I avoided commenting on that - I'm in 'nice' mode today. ;) Yeah, I downloaded the Fall of Myth Drannor a long time ago, but never bothered to read it. Sadly, I have the RoMD still in the box, but haven't really gotten much past the first page, except in instances where someone pointed out specific information to me, and I went and looked it up. Myth Drannor is really an embarassingly huge hole in my Realms lore. :embarrass
Lord Karsus 05-01-08, 07:40 PM	-Meh, I never liked Myth Drannor too much, anyway.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-01-08, 08:53 PM	-Meh, I never liked Myth Drannor too much, anyway. Just out of curiosity, why? Oh wait--is it because it was open to non-elves?;)
Lord Karsus 05-01-08, 09:52 PM	Oh wait--is it because it was open to non-elves?;) -Well, it's not just that. I mean, okay, it kinda is. Sorta. I never like classifying Myth Drannor, and the rest of Cormanthyr, as the pinnacle of Elven society, because it was open to N'Tel'Quessir. I prefer to think of Aryvandaar as the pinnacle of Elven society, as it was primarily and first-and-foremost an Elven nation. -Other than that, though, I don't have too many problems with Myth Drannor.
Mula 05-02-08, 06:13 PM	Right now I'm in Silvermoon, trying to help the towers of the Sun and Moon... In Warcraft... I kid you not... Makes you wonder who is copying who at this point. :rolleyes:Blizzard copies stuff from fantasy and sci-fi sources all the time, and they're pretty open about it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-02-08, 07:48 PM	-Well, it's not just that. I mean, okay, it kinda is. Sorta. I never like classifying Myth Drannor, and the rest of Cormanthyr, as the pinnacle of Elven society, because it was open to N'Tel'Quessir. I prefer to think of Aryvandaar as the pinnacle of Elven society, as it was primarily and first-and-foremost an Elven nation. -Other than that, though, I don't have too many problems with Myth Drannor. Understood.:) I vaguely recall reading, in some source (don't remember which), that Myth Drannor wasn't necessarily the greatest of the elven "Myth cities", it just the most widely remembered. Unfortunately that source did not say what was the greatest elven city. As for whether or not it was the pinnacle of elven society, I suppose that depends on whether or not one thinks elves are at their best when they are being more "open-minded" and mingling with non-elves. :)
Khaelieth 05-02-08, 09:52 PM	Go Myth Unnohyr!
Stigger 05-03-08, 03:13 AM	There is no pinnacle of elven society, or any other society for that matter. There's just elven society. Being the "Greatest" is generally a matter of either hindsight from the future (which one must be careful with over political agendas at work behind the scenes) or present day arrogance.
Mula 05-03-08, 11:42 AM	I think you could even claim that Myth Drannor was indeed the pinnacle of elven society - because they actually managed to work with other (common) races for once, those uptight, holier-than-thou, good-for-nuthin long-ears.
Stigger 05-03-08, 12:00 PM	Silly Mula... its unwashed, long-eared heathens, not just simple long-ears...
Lord Karsus 05-03-08, 03:00 PM	There is no pinnacle of elven society, or any other society for that matter. -Sure there is. Obviously, we have to use hindsight. I think you could even claim that Myth Drannor was indeed the pinnacle of elven society - because they actually managed to work with other (common) races for once, those uptight, holier-than-thou, good-for-nuthin long-ears. -That's the reason why it was NOT the pinnacle of Elven society. It was the pinnacle of that region's interracial unity, and not just Elves.
MarkusTay63 05-03-08, 03:32 PM	But it was THE example of what Elves could be, when their own arrogance doesn't get in the way. ;) I think, perhaps, the 'City of Hope' will be the new center of inter-cultural understanding. Just imagine - Myth Drannor with Dark Elves and Centaurs! Unfortunetly, that makes it too similar to the old Myth Drannor, so if someone plans on rebuilding MD in the old one's image, then something has to go. I just hope they don't deep-6 the new city come 4e. :rolleyes:
Stigger 05-03-08, 05:52 PM	When we use hindsight to define what the pinnacle is, its generally through vision tinged with nostalgia. Despite common wisdom, we're almost always living in the period of greatest achievement as we refine and advance our cultures. The golden eras of the past are never as good as we think they were, but we romanticize them because we didn't have to put up with the day-to-day drudgery. That's one of the reasons I've never much cared for this lust for the 'power' of Netheril. The stuff that was useful survived, the stuff that wasn't so useful was discarded, so now is the golden age of magic, its just the stuff from the past seems much more spectacular because of rarity, not some inherent quality it had. Certainly the magic was more powerful before Karsus' little 'accident', but how useful was that stuff really, except as a way to slaughter others and to set oneself up for a fall (forgive the pun) should magic fail once more? I'll take modern incarnations of magic over the old 'ancient' stuff any day...
Charles Phipps 05-03-08, 06:02 PM	When we use hindsight to define what the pinnacle is, its generally through vision tinged with nostalgia. Despite common wisdom, we're almost always living in the period of greatest achievement as we refine and advance our cultures. The golden eras of the past are never as good as we think they were, but we romanticize them because we didn't have to put up with the day-to-day drudgery. Wasn't that the point of Elminster in Myth Drannor?
18DELTA 05-03-08, 06:42 PM	-Me, I am looking forward to the 4E Army of Darkness!!!:plotting: :evillaugh It will be lead by Ash(AKA Bruce Campbell);) 18D:P
Stigger 05-04-08, 03:17 AM	Wasn't that the point of Elminster in Myth Drannor? Could have been interpreted that way... wasn't what I took from it, but I could see where one could. I looked at it as more of a social commentary on elven life myself.
Lord Karsus 05-04-08, 12:02 PM	But it was THE example of what Elves could be, when their own arrogance doesn't get in the way. ;) -It wasn't their culture, now was it? When we use hindsight to define what the pinnacle is, its generally through vision tinged with nostalgia. Despite common wisdom, we're almost always living in the period of greatest achievement as we refine and advance our cultures. The golden eras of the past are never as good as we think they were, but we romanticize them because we didn't have to put up with the day-to-day drudgery. -Only in certain cases. With Myth Drannor, it was leagues ahead in the arts, "sciences", social commentary, etc.
Stigger 05-04-08, 01:56 PM	And yet it fell... sorry, but a bunch of elven mages should have handed those Nycaloth their heads on a cold iron platter. Except that the society was pulling itself apart through infighting and bigotry, so they couldn't marshal their resources... hardly a prime example of a pinnacle. As for Aryvandaar, or however that's spelled, their upper societal strata became incredibly corrupt and while yes, they were dominant, they weren't exactly the prime example of what elven society is at its best. Height of power does not equal pinnacle of societal development. That's almost always the present day realms, since the lessons of the past are learned from and integrated into society. Pinnacle of society doesn't have to equate to glory or issues of temporal power. The two things are very different to my mind.
Alediran 05-04-08, 06:44 PM	That was because after Eltargrim no true leader arose in Myth Drannor, had Eltargrim been alive when the Khov'Annilesa attacked Cormanthor the city would've held together. Even with all the problems they had they managed to destroy the heads Nycaloths and 90% of the Army of Darkness.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-04-08, 10:33 PM	There is no pinnacle of elven society, or any other society for that matter. There's just elven society. Being the "Greatest" is generally a matter of either hindsight from the future (which one must be careful with over political agendas at work behind the scenes) or present day arrogance. A great point. However, when that source I mentioned said Myth Drannor was not the greatest elven city, it seemed to imply, at the same time, that there was a "greatest elven city", or at least that it's possible to measure how "great" a city is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-04-08, 10:35 PM	I think, perhaps, the 'City of Hope' will be the new center of inter-cultural understanding. Just imagine - Myth Drannor with Dark Elves and Centaurs! Ah, but the dark elves chose to remain Sharn.;)
Lord Karsus 05-04-08, 10:36 PM	And yet it fell... sorry, but a bunch of elven mages should have handed those Nycaloth their heads on a cold iron platter. Except that the society was pulling itself apart through infighting and bigotry, so they couldn't marshal their resources... hardly a prime example of a pinnacle. -I agree. And, this was because of the presence of Non-Elves in the city, thus making it an "open city", and ineligible for being an Elven city.
Stigger 05-05-08, 01:37 AM	Seemed more like a bunch of spoiled children for nobility screwed things up far more than a bunch of non-elves ever did... though I'd agree that it ultimately wasn't an Elven city any longer, for all intents and purposes anyway. Which was rather the point of opening it up I thought...
Lord Karsus 05-05-08, 01:02 PM	-Yeah, the harmony thing was to allow the best ideas and so on from non-Elven races into the city. But, that was indeed what transformed it. Before Myth Drannor was opened, I'd label it an Elven city. Afterwards? No. Sure, it achieved heights that really haven't been matched since, but it was no Elven city. It was a heterogenious city.
Alediran 05-05-08, 05:16 PM	It was mostly an elven city until the beginings of the end.
Lord Karsus 05-05-08, 06:04 PM	-Until the city was "opened", which was when the city of Myth Drannor proper reached such "heights".
Alediran 05-06-08, 08:38 AM	I've meant that the biggest percent of population was elven until most of the city was evacuated.
Stigger 05-06-08, 09:28 AM	Yes, but most of those races were relegated to virtual ghettos.... :P Okay, that's an exhaggeration, but still, you know what I mean...
Lord Karsus 05-06-08, 11:04 AM	I've meant that the biggest percent of population was elven until most of the city was evacuated. -Indeed, but the fact that large populations of N'Tel'Quessir existed and had sway in the official government makes Myth Drannor, post-Eltargrim/post-Opening, a multicultural city, and not an Elven city. -Would you consider New York a Dutch city? After all, the Dutch founded the colony that would evolve to become NYC. My old neighborhood- before my parents divorced, and I moved around, and things became all out of wack for me- was called 'Gravesend' because in the original settlement, that region was where the graves, which would have been on one far side of the settlement, ended. One street- Gravesend Neck Road N/E/S/W- signaled where the walls to the settlement used to be. Now, would you consider Brooklyn a Dutch city today?
Stigger 05-06-08, 11:50 AM	Indeed I would... and the Dutch government will be showing up to collect back taxes any minute now... :D
Lord Karsus 05-06-08, 12:09 PM	-To that, I have this to say: "Dutch government, who?" :P
Khaelieth 05-06-08, 12:11 PM	*Snort* You still owe the Brits all tax revenue since 1776.
Lord Karsus 05-06-08, 12:15 PM	-To that, I have this to say: "British government, who?" :P
MarkusTay63 05-06-08, 12:21 PM	Well, there WAS that little thing called WWII... lets just call it even, shall we? ;) Otherwise you guys might have Londonsburg as a capital. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-06-08, 01:09 PM	*Snort* You still owe the Brits all tax revenue since 1776. Come on, buddy--it's the 21st century.:P
Jiggawha 05-06-08, 01:24 PM	they kinda pay taxes to the Brittish, if you believe in some theories, like who owns the FED, or that King James' Virginia Company still owns the land
Lord Karsus 05-06-08, 01:29 PM	-Khaelieth, what's your taxation rate, anyway? Isn't it something silly, like 45%?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-06-08, 01:40 PM	they kinda pay taxes to the Brittish, if you believe in some theories... Like what, conspiracy theories?
Jiggawha 05-06-08, 01:58 PM	well, yes, depending on how you interpret the term
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-06-08, 02:03 PM	well, yes, depending on how you interpret the term I generally interpret conspiracy theories as BS.:)
Stigger 05-06-08, 03:26 PM	To put it mildly... men talk, particularly to women they either are having or wish to have intimate relations with and feel the need to impress... it all leaks eventually somehow.
MarkusTay63 05-06-08, 04:58 PM	I remember reading somewhere, right after Clinton got out of office, that he can legally run for the presedential office in France (Prime Minister?). It seems there are some funny old laws still on the books, and anyone who lives in a current or FORMER province of France can run for office there... and Clinton lived in a state that was previously part of the Louisiana Purchase. :eek: I asked a French internet friend of mine how he'd feel about that - he said that a cheesy skirt-chaser would fit right in, and he couldn't be any worse then their current leader. :D Oh, and a British friend of mine, who is a WWII vet, told me that the British Gov't was fully prepared to move to Canada if England was invaded - the boats were all prepared and ready to launch on the west coast, as soon as the Nazis landed on the east. That never came to pass, since they stuck with their air-war, but I asked him (he was pretty high-up by the end of the war) how that would have worked. he said that it wouldn't have been ANY problem what-so-ever, because Canada was still part of the commonwealth, along with Australia and South Africa, and that Elizabeth was still their Queen. I laughed, and said that would mean that the US would still be considered part of the 'Commonwealth' under British law. He just smiled... and made me uncomfortable. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 05-06-08, 05:01 PM	-It's called Self-Determination. :rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 05-06-08, 05:10 PM	Well, if I up-and-decided to form my own country within the United states, I really doubt that the US Gov't would accept such a thing. So why is it when they did it back in 1776 it was 'legal'? :confused: Technically, we are just terrorists against the legitimate British soverienty. :thinks: Does this mean that all Civilization is, is based on who has the 'Biggest Guns'? Thats a horrible thought. :(
Charles Phipps 05-06-08, 05:21 PM	Well, if I up-and-decided to form my own country within the United states, I really doubt that the US Gov't would accept such a thing. So why is it when they did it back in 1776 it was 'legal'? :confused: Technically, we are just terrorists against the legitimate British soverienty. :thinks: Does this mean that all Civilization is, is based on who has the 'Biggest Guns'? Thats a horrible thought. :( Actually, MarkusTay63, in one of the most belated and most annoying court decisions of all time; the Civil War was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Lincoln's attempt to move troopers into the South to prevent their secession was in violation of said body. Of course, that was years after the Civil War and the States had been once more absorbed into it. But you're right, civilization is based on the biggest guns. My father had a saying about it and it was "Son, always make sure you're backing the right cause. Next, remember that no matter how right you are, you have to have the force to back it up."
Stigger 05-06-08, 06:48 PM	More depends on whether you can get a legitimate state to recognize your sovereignity... now what constitutes a legitimate state can vary. Somehow I doubt that if I formed Stiggeragua in the middle of California and managed to get Mr. Chavez from Venezuela to recognize it that it would make much of a difference. China on the other hand might make one... But a lot of it depends on one's ability to defend this declared borders from what I understand, and having the local populace on one's side as well, though I suspect being able to hold your border matters more. So, I'd definitely agree that it more depends on who has the firepower more than anything else. That's always been the case though, so not like its anything new to the world.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-06-08, 08:20 PM	That never came to pass, since they stuck with their air-war, but I asked him (he was pretty high-up by the end of the war) how that would have worked. he said that it wouldn't have been ANY problem what-so-ever, because Canada was still part of the commonwealth, along with Australia and South Africa, and that Elizabeth was still their Queen. I laughed, and said that would mean that the US would still be considered part of the 'Commonwealth' under British law. Actually, I don't understand how that follows.:confused:
Lord Karsus 05-06-08, 08:49 PM	Well, if I up-and-decided to form my own country within the United states, I really doubt that the US Gov't would accept such a thing. -No, of course not. But, Markus is not an entire nation of people, which is what is needed for Self-Determination. So why is it when they did it back in 1776 it was 'legal'? :confused: -The legality of an action is relevant to the perspective of an individual. What is illegal to me...honor killings, let's say, is not illegal to a Sheik in the UAE. To the English crown, what the settlers on the American continent were doing was illegal. They were disobeying the crown, to make the list short, rather than list every single little thing. The American colonists, however, had a case in which they believed- and were willing to fight for- their self-determination, and were lucky enough that the French government had the foresight to support such a movement, as it would be a thorn in England's side. Were it not for the French, there would be no United States of America- at least, not in the form things have taken. Technically, we are just terrorists against the legitimate British soverienty. :thinks: -The United States of America has soverignty over the territories that she is made up of, meaning that all lands and peoples under her jurisdiction are one land, answering to one government- the United States of America. So sayth International Law. Does this mean that all Civilization is, is based on who has the 'Biggest Guns'? -Yes. Very Nietzschean. The following passage is from a passage written by Emperor Palpatine, based on his readings of the Sith book, The Weakness of Inferiors. What he says, more or less, adheres to the realist theory of international governance, which is how things get done, without any of that unrealistic international liberalism: "Inferiors continually endanger their own lives and the lives of others through poor decisions, reckless behavior, and inability to engineer the reality of their ambitious dreams. They are like children, crying in frustration because they do not comprehend their own limitations. These weaklings need structure- to be shown their place in the existing social order. It is left to the wise and powerful to provide that structure in order for civilization to survive and thrive in the galaxy. Those who cannot- or will not- accept that peace and order are far more impoartant than their own selfish desires must be removed from society before they can inflict any lasting damage."
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-06-08, 09:03 PM	Palpatine was a great man.:)
Charles Phipps 05-06-08, 09:31 PM	But yes, it boils down to the fact that while Canada has sovereignty in practice, they're still part of a greater English Overstate in theory. In practice, it would have just been Canada being extremely nice and generous to Churchill and Queen Elizabeth.
Lord Karsus 05-06-08, 11:51 PM	Palpatine was a great man.:) -Yes, yes he was. In practice, it would have just been Canada being extremely nice and generous to Churchill and Queen Elizabeth. -Correct. Canada is it's own soverign state. As such, the official government of Great Britain has no actual sway in Canadian politics, other than what can be fanagled and agreed to with via alliances, elbow-rubbing, and being buddy-buddy with Canada.
Khaelieth 05-07-08, 02:33 PM	Come on, buddy--it's the 21st century.:P Just means you owe us a lot of money.
Stigger 05-07-08, 04:54 PM	Palpatine was a nitwit who couldn't keep a whole galaxy from getting ganked by some backwater farmboy... :P
Lord Karsus 05-07-08, 06:22 PM	Palpatine was a nitwit who couldn't keep a whole galaxy from getting ganked by some backwater farmboy... :P -That would actually be Bevel Lemelisk's problem, not Palpatine's. Lemelisk was the one who included that famous exhaust shaft. -But, anyway, Palpatine did start losing sight of what Sith stood for, as he began doing things not to bring security and order, and instead, was blinded by his own accumulation of power.
Charles Phipps 05-08-08, 12:49 AM	Wouldn't it be the opposite? Sith exist for power for its own sake. Peace and Order is heresy against Darth Bane, he says so in Legacy to Darth Krayt. Hell, it's the first line of the Sith Code. "PEACE IS A LIE"
Lord Karsus 05-08-08, 01:07 AM	Sith exist for power for its own sake. -Sith exist to bring law and order. Power is simply a byproduct, or what is needed in the first place, to facilitate bringing law and order. The mundane yeoman isn't the spiritual/physical leader of the Tibet. The Dalai Lama is. Peace and Order is heresy against Darth Bane, he says so in Legacy to Darth Krayt. -Darth Bane's word is hardly infallable, as he came into existence years and years after the True Sith Lords of yesteryear (My personal favorites of Kun, Qel-Droma, and so on), and his beliefs and perceptions were already biased by his indoctrination and experiences with the Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Sith. -That said, though canon, I'd take everything in Legacy with a grain of salt, as it is simply terrible. Hell, it's the first line of the Sith Code. "PEACE IS A LIE" -Which doesn't have to do with law and order.
Charles Phipps 05-08-08, 01:12 AM	Sith exist to bring law and order. That's the Jedi philosophy. Sith believing serving others is foolish. :-)
Stigger 05-08-08, 01:48 AM	-That would actually be Bevel Lemelisk's problem, not Palpatine's. Lemelisk was the one who included that famous exhaust shaft. -But, anyway, Palpatine did start losing sight of what Sith stood for, as he began doing things not to bring security and order, and instead, was blinded by his own accumulation of power. Dark Empire II and Empire's End were hardly ol' Bevel's fault... Palpatine got sloppy and got wasted for it. Though I'd agree that security and order were well within the Sith Code. Peace isn't necessarily implied in that, and is often compromised greatly by it. You have a whole lot of room to maneuver with that whole security thing, as even a casual glance through history should show.
Lord Karsus 05-08-08, 11:31 AM	That's the Jedi philosophy. Sith believing serving others is foolish. :-) -That...doesn't make sense. To be frank, I find you opinions on the subject disturbing. Dark Empire II and Empire's End were hardly ol' Bevel's fault... Palpatine got sloppy and got wasted for it. -Those two cases don't necessarily demonstrate the whole galaxy getting ganked by a backwater farmboy. The galaxy wasn't being "ganked", and I think Luke, by that point, had matured enough to not fit the "backwater hick" title. Same thing with Leia, and the rest of the supporting cast. :P
Stigger 05-08-08, 01:20 PM	Once a backwater hick, always a backwater hick... although really, when you think about it, its worse getting put permanently in the deadbook by a semi-disembodied head mounted on a floating garbage can... :P
Lord Karsus 05-08-08, 02:12 PM	Once a backwater hick, always a backwater hick... -Wasn't Bill Clinton from Arkansas? I wouldn't really label him as a 'hick' anymore. :P ...although really, when you think about it, its worse getting put permanently in the deadbook by a semi-disembodied head mounted on a floating garbage can... :P -Hey, leave Empathaytos (Sp?) Brand out of this!
Stigger 05-08-08, 03:30 PM	Empatojayos or something like that... And Bill could be said to tend towards a hick occassionally, given some of the bizarre things he's been doing lately.
Lord Karsus 05-08-08, 04:10 PM	-Neutral Rhodes Scholar, with Hick Tendencies.
Khaelieth 05-09-08, 09:04 AM	Bush's from Connecticut. That i didn't know.
Lord Karsus 05-09-08, 11:21 AM	Bush's from Connecticut. That i didn't know. -Yes. That is where the family originates from.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-09-08, 07:08 PM	Palpatine was a nitwit who couldn't keep a whole galaxy from getting ganked by some backwater farmboy... :P A lie!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-09-08, 07:09 PM	-But, anyway, Palpatine did start losing sight of what Sith stood for, as he began doing things not to bring security and order, and instead, was blinded by his own accumulation of power. That's a lie too.:(
Lord Karsus 05-09-08, 08:05 PM	That's a lie too.:( -I'm sorry, but it had to be said. He did get rid of the Jedi, for the most part, which was a very commendable thing to do, so he'd still get a medal in my book. Does that make up for it, a little bit?
Stigger 05-09-08, 08:44 PM	You're right... Palpatine wasn't a nitwit. I must amend that to foolish, funny-looking, in-desperate need of moisturizer, half-baked nitwit. There, that better? :P ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-09-08, 10:50 PM	-I'm sorry, but it had to be said. He did get rid of the Jedi, for the most part, which was a very commendable thing to do, so he'd still get a medal in my book. Does that make up for it, a little bit? Yes.:) And remember: most of the rebel soldiers were murderers and sexual deviants, the type of people you'd find populating any maximum security prison. I still can't believe people rooted for them over Palpatine's troops!:mad:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-09-08, 10:50 PM	You're right... Palpatine wasn't a nitwit. I must amend that to foolish, funny-looking, in-desperate need of moisturizer, half-baked nitwit. There, that better? :P ;) How sad, that you judge a book by its cover.:weep:
Lord Karsus 05-10-08, 12:35 AM	Yes.:) And remember: most of the rebel soldiers were murderers and sexual deviants, the type of people you'd find populating any maximum security prison. I still can't believe people rooted for them over Palpatine's troops!:mad: -Very true. Smugglers, pirates...Deviants of all types and shapes.
Stigger 05-10-08, 02:13 AM	I like deviants... them's my people. :P Particularly the sexual deviants... :D As to judging a book by its cover, no. Never. That was after having read it that I came to that conclusion. We just reached a different conclusion you poor deluded Rino. :P ;)
ikki 05-10-08, 08:32 AM	Just means you owe us a lot of money. dude... there was no income tax back then ;) Infact a 1% tax raised much later on was considered heretical, satanical and doomed to cause starvation.. It was all toll, thats why they threw the tea into the harbor. Wanting to import tea on their own, and not paying any toll (import tax). Infact even in 1920, import taxes still formed the backbone of taxation pretty much everywhere. During the 60s it was income tax, which has faded again into obscurity.. now its the capitaltax that reigns supreme regarding government income.
Therise 05-10-08, 10:54 AM	I like deviants... them's my people. :P Particularly the sexual deviants... :D Mr. Blackitt: "I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas. And Protestantism doesn't stop at the simple condom. I can wear French ticklers if I want." --Monty Python's Meaning of Life. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Lord Karsus 05-10-08, 10:57 AM	I like deviants... them's my people. :P Particularly the sexual deviants... :D -That's...iiinnnnteresting... As to judging a book by its cover, no. Never. That was after having read it that I came to that conclusion. We just reached a different conclusion you poor deluded Rino. :P ;) -They always say those ahead of their time are delusional...
Khaelieth 05-10-08, 01:34 PM	dude... there was no income tax back then ;) Infact a 1% tax raised much later on was considered heretical, satanical and doomed to cause starvation.. It was all toll, thats why they threw the tea into the harbor. Wanting to import tea on their own, and not paying any toll (import tax). Infact even in 1920, import taxes still formed the backbone of taxation pretty much everywhere. During the 60s it was income tax, which has faded again into obscurity.. now its the capitaltax that reigns supreme regarding government income. Not talking about just income tax. Talking about all tax, tolls and such;p
Stigger 05-10-08, 01:45 PM	-That's...iiinnnnteresting... Of course, it's me afterall. :P -They always say those ahead of their time are delusional... As well as those behind their time... a 40 year run (at most), while not bad, is hardly comparable to the thousands of years that came before it.
Khaelieth 05-10-08, 02:10 PM	You know what Stigger says: it's not sex if the woman survives it's not called rape; it's surprise sex Dead girls don't say no. ;p
Lord Karsus 05-10-08, 03:00 PM	-That's pretty disturbing. You seriously have problems, potentially, up there.
Stigger 05-10-08, 05:17 PM	Not quite what I had in mind for deviant... that goes straight into sick, not deviancy. Not worth it if there's no free will involved... besides, its more fun to talk them into things they'd never contemplate on their own. :evillaugh :D Though I do recall a rather catchy phrase from my youth that could apply to Khaelieth... something like: Eight to eighty, blind, crippled, crazy, if they can't walk, we'll drag 'em... Or something to that effect. :P
SmartPaladin 05-10-08, 05:23 PM	-That's pretty disturbing. You seriously have problems, potentially, up there. I can hit him, right?
Stigger 05-10-08, 05:31 PM	Don't hit Khaelieth... he's fragile. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-11-08, 02:54 AM	I can hit him, right? -Yeah, maybe.
ikki 05-11-08, 03:30 AM	Funny how (almost) EVERY book has been cancelled. A total of ONE coming out this year.. one in a new series "star sistahz".. which does bring to mind certain stereotypes.
SmartPaladin 05-11-08, 04:08 AM	Funny how (almost) EVERY book has been cancelled. A total of ONE coming out this year.. one in a new series "star sistahz".. which does bring to mind certain stereotypes. :uh-huh: Are you serious?
Khaelieth 05-11-08, 07:47 AM	Don't hit Khaelieth... he's fragile. ;) Why are all the men hitting on me?:confused: :weep: :embarrass :uh-huh: :uh-huh: :nonono: :help: :gah: :blink: *Abuses smileys Delta style*
Stigger 05-11-08, 09:24 AM	I'd answer that, but it'd never get past the filters... :P ;)
Khaelieth 05-11-08, 10:36 AM	Try;p
ikki 05-11-08, 10:42 AM	:uh-huh: Are you serious? theres a thread like this in dragonlance. But hey, dont take my word.. go to wizards.com/dnd and to products.. 2008, and count how many are labelled "novel". Ill make it easy: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndlist&brand=All&year=2008&tablesort=1 all the 2008 products, how many novels are there? Also the rest of the empyrean story was to come. Obviously not anymore.
SmartPaladin 05-11-08, 01:52 PM	Why are all the men hitting on me?:confused: :weep: :embarrass :uh-huh: :uh-huh: :nonono: :help: :gah: :blink: *Abuses smileys Delta style* You get used to the injustice of it after a while... theres a thread like this in dragonlance. But hey, dont take my word.. go to wizards.com/dnd and to products.. 2008, and count how many are labelled "novel". Ill make it easy: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndlist&brand=All&year=2008&tablesort=1 all the 2008 products, how many novels are there? Also the rest of the empyrean story was to come. Obviously not anymore. That's it. We're egging the WotC building and demanding to know why.
ikki 05-11-08, 01:53 PM	I just realize i was awaiting the rest of the balckstaff story too..
Khaelieth 05-11-08, 03:27 PM	You get used to the injustice of it after a while... Used to women hitting on me, but men's quite new.
Stigger 05-11-08, 03:41 PM	Thought they were just delaying them for a while, not cancelling them outright... interesting change if they were all cancelled though.
ikki 05-11-08, 04:25 PM	Thought they were just delaying them for a while, not cancelling them outright... interesting change if they were all cancelled though. But even a delay makes close to no sense at all. They should be rather desperate for sales.. and to turn away products... products people have been waiting for ! Its almost like they think theres an allocated market, and by not providing products they will manage to sell all that more 4th edition stuff. Sorry, doesnt work that way...
Stigger 05-11-08, 04:29 PM	No, not really. Been a strange business model they've been using lately, that's definitely true... seen a lot of small businesses sink using the sorts of strategems that they seem to have employed... doubtful it'll sink the company, but I can't imagine it's going to really go as much in their favor as their probably hoping for in this economic climate.
Lord Karsus 05-11-08, 05:13 PM	-ikki, that link is obviously not correct. Rich Baker's Swordmage book was just released a few days ago, and that isn't listed on the product list there. There's a miscommunication, somewhere, but that list isn't right.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-11-08, 07:16 PM	As to judging a book by its cover, no. Never. That was after having read it that I came to that conclusion. We just reached a different conclusion you poor deluded Rino. :P ;) Knowing the truth makes me delusional?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-11-08, 07:16 PM	-Very true. Smugglers, pirates...Deviants of all types and shapes. And murderers!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-11-08, 07:21 PM	-ikki, that link is obviously not correct. Rich Baker's Swordmage book was just released a few days ago, and that isn't listed on the product list there. There's a miscommunication, somewhere, but that list isn't right. I agree--WotC product lists are often dodgy.
Lord Karsus 05-11-08, 07:37 PM	Knowing the truth makes me delusional? -Don't listen to him. We know the truth. That's all that matters. As long as someone knows, the knowledge can be passed down. How very...Sithy. :cool: And murderers! -And them, too. How many innocent people were killed when the Death Star was blown up? Thousands. Everyday people, just trying to make ends meet, to feed their families...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-11-08, 07:41 PM	-Don't listen to him. We know the truth. That's all that matters. As long as someone knows, the knowledge can be passed down. How very...Sithy. :cool: Yes--those who are anti-Palpatine are simply anti-truth.:) -And them, too. How many innocent people were killed when the Death Star was blown up? Thousands. Everyday people, just trying to make ends meet, to feed their families... I'm sure a lot of these rebel fighters actually killed each other off-screen.
SmartPaladin 05-11-08, 07:50 PM	-Don't listen to him. We know the truth. That's all that matters. As long as someone knows, the knowledge can be passed down. How very...Sithy. :cool: Sorry, I'd rather protect everyone then try to run their lives. So I guess I'm one of the New Jedi. I'd even be willing to leave the Sith alone, so long as they don't harm anyone I care or come after me... -And them, too. How many innocent people were killed when the Death Star was blown up? Thousands. Everyday people, just trying to make ends meet, to feed their families... Why am I suddenly reminded of the movie Clerks (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109445/)? Oh yeah, because this same thing came up in the movie... Granted, it was the Second Deathstar. But that one going was more wrenching if you remember that it wasn't even finished, which means there were workers still there.
Khaelieth 05-11-08, 07:51 PM	And murderers! and prudes!
Lord Karsus 05-11-08, 08:10 PM	Yes--those who are anti-Palpatine are simply anti-truth.:) -And, people who are anti-truth are also anti-cool. I'm sure a lot of these rebel fighters actually killed each other off-screen. -Probably. That would explain why so many actors from the Episode IV did not return for Episode V. Sorry, I'd rather protect everyone then try to run their lives. So I guess I'm one of the New Jedi. I'd even be willing to leave the Sith alone, so long as they don't harm anyone I care or come after me... -The Sith bring order and security. Those who are an impediment to order and security, and threaten the stablility of it are removed. So, the choice would really be all up to you. Why am I suddenly reminded of the movie Clerks (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109445/)? Oh yeah, because this same thing came up in the movie... Granted, it was the Second Deathstar. But that one going was more wrenching if you remember that it wasn't even finished, which means there were workers still there. -Don't know. Never seen it. I saw the second one, though.
SmartPaladin 05-11-08, 08:44 PM	-The Sith bring order and security. Those who are an impediment to order and security, and threaten the stablility of it are removed. So, the choice would really be all up to you. They also brought dictatorship... So it's really just a double edge sword. You can try for peace, order, stability, and security. But you sometimes wonder if someone in your fair and just land, would think you a tyrant? Can't please everyone I guess. -Don't know. Never seen it. I saw the second one, though. Clerks was good. A little wired in some parts, but good.
Khaelieth 05-11-08, 08:53 PM	They also brought dictatorship... So it's really just a double edge sword. You can try for peace, order, stability, and security. But you sometimes wonder if someone in your fair and just land, would think you a tyrant? Can't please everyone I guess. Well, there was peace, order and stability before the Clone Wars, which was due to Palpatine, or so evil Jedi propaganda will have us believe.
SmartPaladin 05-11-08, 09:01 PM	Well, there was peace, order and stability before the Clone Wars, which was due to Palpatine, or so evil Jedi propaganda will have us believe. This is true... Was killing all of the Jedi really necessary though? Really? And what was it that split the Jedi from the Sith anyway? Was it something we should have Jerry Springer look into? :P
Lord Karsus 05-11-08, 10:21 PM	They also brought dictatorship... So it's really just a double edge sword. -Since when are dictatorships bad? In and of themselves, dictatorships are wholly neutral, just like democracies are. Enlightened dictators exist, and cruel and petty democracies exist. One is not mutually good, and the other is not mutually bad. You can try for peace, order, stability, and security. But you sometimes wonder if someone in your fair and just land, would think you a tyrant? Can't please everyone I guess. -That those who do not matter think of you a tyrant or not matters little. So long as they do not attempt to disrupt the mechanisms that perpetuate peace and security within society. When/if they do, then these individuals are a problem, and need to be eliminated. Clerks was good. A little wired in some parts, but good. -Well, if I ever see it on TV, I'll attempt not to change the channel, then. This is true... Was killing all of the Jedi really necessary though? Really? -Yes. As I said, those who threaten the stability of the order brought by the Sith need to be eliminated in order to preserve the order. Do you think the Jedi, in all of their holy righteousness (:rolleyes:) would actually allow a Sith to gain control of the galaxy, and bring peace and order to those living in the galaxy? Or, in order to retain their priviledged seat within galactic society, they'd attempt to destroy that which made everyone's life that much safer, plunging the galaxy back into the chaos that it once was? Think about it...The Old Republic stood for thousands of years, and there were constantly squabbles, wars and conflicts being fought. When the Empire came into being, asides for the Rebel Alliance- those who could not understand the necessity of what Palpatine was doing- order and peace had been established. After the Empire was toppled, and the New Republic came into being, society plunged back into lawlessness and chaos once more.
SmartPaladin 05-11-08, 10:40 PM	-Since when are dictatorships bad? In and of themselves, dictatorships are wholly neutral, just like democracies are. Enlightened dictators exist, and cruel and petty democracies exist. One is not mutually good, and the other is not mutually bad. This is true... -That those who do not matter think of you a tyrant or not matters little. So long as they do not attempt to disrupt the mechanisms that perpetuate peace and security within society. When/if they do, then these individuals are a problem, and need to be eliminated. Well, if your friends and allies start to see you as a Tyrant, then I think your in trouble... -Well, if I ever see it on TV, I'll attempt not to change the channel, then. No rush. -Yes. As I said, those who threaten the stability of the order brought by the Sith need to be eliminated in order to preserve the order. Do you think the Jedi, in all of their holy righteousness (:rolleyes:) would actually allow a Sith to gain control of the galaxy, and bring peace and order to those living in the galaxy? Or, in order to retain their priviledged seat within galactic society, they'd attempt to destroy that which made everyone's life that much safer, plunging the galaxy back into the chaos that it once was? Think about it...The Old Republic stood for thousands of years, and there were constantly squabbles, wars and conflicts being fought. When the Empire came into being, asides for the Rebel Alliance- those who could not understand the necessity of what Palpatine was doing- order and peace had been established. After the Empire was toppled, and the New Republic came into being, society plunged back into lawlessness and chaos once more. Ah, the price of Freedom. To mess with everyone, I think the next "Council" should be half Sith and half Jedi. There's Balance for you.
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 12:25 AM	Well, if your friends and allies start to see you as a Tyrant, then I think your in trouble... -Depends on the circumstances and details, of course. Ah, the price of Freedom. To mess with everyone, I think the next "Council" should be half Sith and half Jedi. There's Balance for you. -Again, I'd never happen. The Jedi wouldn't stand for such a thing, in their righteous indignation. -Of course, though...Dark Side...Light Side...Both are fallacies, the attempts of the mortal mind to understand that which it cannot. There is only the Unifying Force.
SmartPaladin 05-12-08, 04:17 AM	-Depends on the circumstances and details, of course. Doesn't everything? -Again, I'd never happen. The Jedi wouldn't stand for such a thing, in their righteous indignation. That's not true. It's be just another day in the Skywalker household. :P You can't tell me there wouldn't be some part of Luke going "Hmm..." :P -Of course, though...Dark Side...Light Side...Both are fallacies, the attempts of the mortal mind to understand that which it cannot. There is only the Unifying Force. I'd rather call the Force, Karma. :P
Khaelieth 05-12-08, 07:44 AM	-Again, I'd never happen. The Jedi wouldn't stand for such a thing, in their righteous indignation. What about the Sith?;p "Yeah, sure i'll talk with Windu about the toilet paper tax!"
Stigger 05-12-08, 10:16 AM	Knowing the truth makes me delusional? Truth is not the word I would use to describe those sorts of views... as I said before, delusion suits it much better, despite the sophistry behind the justifications of the Sith's atrocities. A rather key problem with dictatorships being 'good' is that they tend to ignore the wishes of the governed, while democracies are formed with the consent of those governed. Certainly dictatorships have a tendency towards stability and order, but its generally at the cost of personal freedom and guaranteed rights. And do recall that it was Palpatine encouraging a lot of the corruption in the Senate in order to make himself look like a much better choice... Given that the Republic had been a stable and functioning government for thousands of years and didn't start falling apart until he showed up, I think a strong case could be made that he was indeed the root cause of much of the disorder and instability that afflicted it, and was simply doing his best to profit off of a looming disaster that he himself created. Hardly the 'champion' of order and stability if he plunged the galaxy into a civil war, not once, but twice... As to Clerks, a friend of mine told me it was one of the most often stolen movies around for the rental business... not sure if that's local or what though.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-12-08, 10:26 AM	Stigger, I see you've been taken in by Jedi propaganda.:(
Stigger 05-12-08, 10:29 AM	Alternately, one could say that you have been taken in by Sith propaganda... Though I'd tend to agree with the Mandalorians in that they should both just disappear and stop interfering with the galaxy. :P
Alediran 05-12-08, 10:34 AM	The Siths are the ones who use propaganda to influence the young Padawans to join them with their hollow promises of unlimited power. The Dark Side may be easier, but the deeper you are on it, the more it demands of you. It's like a drug dealer, the first sample is free and easy to obtain. From that point it takes more than it gives. The Dark Side is fuelled by the negative emotions (Anger, Fear, Agression, Hate) of sentient beings, the Light Side is fuelled by the positive (Compasion, Heroism, Respect, Discipline). Those negative feelings only lead one to destruction, it's the path to entropy. The Light Side (and the Jedi who act as Jedi should) are people who protect, create, improve. No Sith would risk his life for a cause if he can manipulate somebody else to take that risk while they hide, true Jedi never hide from danger if that's what it takes to make the Gallaxy a better place (Obi-Wan chose to fight Darth Maul even after seeing him killing his master, he fought him because it was the right thing to do and that act of heroism in the face of incredible danger is what gave Obi-Wan the power to defeat Maul and become a Jedi Knight)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-12-08, 10:38 AM	You two are only proving that good (no, great!) men like Palpatine always wind up being misunderstood and persecuted!:(
Stigger 05-12-08, 10:43 AM	Indeed... Great in that sort of psychotic Hitler sort of way... I guess. But at least good ol' Adolph didn't go around blowing up planets that upset him. :P
Alediran 05-12-08, 10:43 AM	Let's see if Palpatine would've taken a killing strike to save the life of somebody else and then we can start talking about how great is he.
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 12:38 PM	-Stigger and Alediran have both been corrupted by lies. I am both saddened and disappointed.
Stigger 05-12-08, 12:55 PM	The same could be said of you two. :P
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 12:57 PM	-There is nothing we are saying that is an untruth. Rather than blindly accepting Sith propaganda, the conclusions I have reached are due to deep analytical looks at both the Jedi and the Sith. Of the two, the Sith are preferable, and the better of the two, for the huddled masses of the galaxy. -Of course, their inherent view of the Force- that is, believing that there is a "Dark Side"- is flawed, but it is their philosophy that really matters.
Alediran 05-12-08, 01:04 PM	Even Luke realized that the Dark Side does exists after he tried using both sides.
Stigger 05-12-08, 01:05 PM	A philosophy of a stratified society in which the strong dominate the weak and must accept whatever happens to them without recourse? Sorry, but unless you're one of those strong, that's not a particularly appealing way to live...
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 01:16 PM	Even Luke realized that the Dark Side does exists after he tried using both sides. -There is no Dark Side. Or Light Side. There is only the Unifying Force. A philosophy of a stratified society in which the strong dominate the weak and must accept whatever happens to them without recourse? Sorry, but unless you're one of those strong, that's not a particularly appealing way to live... -And yet, that's how things are. I am firmly entrenched in the middle-class. Closer to the bottom of middle-class than the top of middle-class, really. That said- and this always gets my mother, when the topic comes up in discussion- "Reaganomics", where the upper-class benefitted, and the middle-class really didn't, should be a permanent policy. Though I am not directly benefitting, I have the..."foresight" I guess to see how things are benefitting. Same thing in this case. I'd want a strong ruler to ensure peace, order and security, even if that doesn't benefit me in any physical way.
Stigger 05-12-08, 02:19 PM	Reaganomics was the beginning of the economic attempt to diminish, if not destroy the middle class, a war against them if one wants to apply a bit of melodrama to the matter. Which was reversed somewhat under the Clinton administration, and which was picked up again in a far more destructive way under the current administration. Given the choice, I'd much prefer a universal flat tax rate, moderate economic regulation, and incentives to maintain our manufacturing and general industrial base without compromising environmental standards (the greener the business, the bigger the carrot, not some knee-jerk BE GREEN OR DIE sort of pseudo-eco-terror agenda). Sorry, but I've no urge to relive the Victorian economic period, as we seem to be heading towards, if it can at all be avoided. Massive disparity of wealth is not a sound economic model. As to rulership, the US Constitution is about as perfect a document of governance as I can envision. Peace, Order, Security... are illusions to my mind, which serve no purpose other than to entrap the fearful. Peace isn't something we're ever going to have while human nature persists. Order, well, who's version of it? Chances are, not one that will benefit the population at large. Secruity can't be achieved with complete certainty, so I'd rather have the freedom over some false security blanket that is used as an excuse to erode civil liberty. Reasonable measures are possible certainly, but we did pretty well for years, and with some judicious upgrading of our technology and training, I see few compelling reasons why we need some massive increase.
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 04:56 PM	Reaganomics was the beginning of the economic attempt to diminish, if not destroy the middle class, a war against them if one wants to apply a bit of melodrama to the matter. Which was reversed somewhat under the Clinton administration, and which was picked up again in a far more destructive way under the current administration. Given the choice, I'd much prefer a universal flat tax rate, moderate economic regulation, and incentives to maintain our manufacturing and general industrial base without compromising environmental standards (the greener the business, the bigger the carrot, not some knee-jerk BE GREEN OR DIE sort of pseudo-eco-terror agenda). Sorry, but I've no urge to relive the Victorian economic period, as we seem to be heading towards, if it can at all be avoided. Massive disparity of wealth is not a sound economic model. -It's very simple: The upper class has the disposable income to invest in businesses, foreign investments, land, and so on and so forth. These are the things that stimulate the economy, in a major way, as opposed the minor way, where everyone spending an extra $300, from their tax returns. An America with a healthy economy is a happy America, in general terms. Thus, the rich need the money to do so, while the middle-class does not. Again, I am part of the middle-class, as I am sure we all are. I guess I possess the ability to...use "logic" and "reason" when thinking about certain things, and not "emotion" and "passion", even if I am directly or indirectly involved, in theory. I was made an anathema in one of my law classes this semester because I was arguing (and, all of you should know, that, when I argue, it's arguing! ;)) that pregnant mothers smoking nicotine and drinking alcohol should face no legal penalty whatsoever, while the rest of the class had it's collective heart set on making such actions illegal. Dopes, each and every one of them. As to rulership, the US Constitution is about as perfect a document of governance as I can envision. -The U.S. Constitution is regarded in the International Law community as the "perfect document". States that come into being now still model their consitutions after the U.S. Constitution. It was, by far, much ahead of it's time. Peace, Order, Security... are illusions to my mind, which serve no purpose other than to entrap the fearful. -Ah, here we go with this again. :P -Peace, order, security...All have objective and actual meanings, hence they are not illusions. They way they are used commonly may be in such a way to manipulate public sentiment, but that does not minimize the fact that said concepts do exist as concepts.
Stigger 05-12-08, 05:27 PM	My problem with that is that the Middle class spending a little tends to add up to more than the Upper class spending a lot, simply by weight of numbers. I don't, and wouldn't, advocate removing wealth disportionately, which is why I'd favor a flat tax rate so that you're taxed at the same rate as everyone else, with little in the way of exemptions, so that everyone shares the same burden from their endeavors. Certainly the wealthy would end up paying more, but 10% of $50,000 versus 10% of 500,000 (for instance) is a considerable difference. Sure they're paying as much as the middle class person is making, but their also keeping a whole lot more income, even after the taxes. A system, I think, considerably fairer, not to mention more logical, than our current one. As to the rest of Reaganomics, that's probably a topic that's best left untouched for now, for fear of the Wiz-O's telling us to keep it at least somewhat on topic. Suffice to say however, I disagree with a lot of it, particularly where Unions and labor practices were concerned. Which is not to say those Unions weren't corrupt, but that's a whole other subject. As a side note, I completely agree that its no ones business what a pregnant mother does to herself, especially the State's. That's the whole self-determination thing that I think should apply to not just nations, but to individuals. And those things certainly do have concrete meanings. However (knew that was coming I bet) the way they are used in general public discourse has little actual substance. This is particularly true when one attempts to measure those things, since each person viewing them tends to have different criteria for how they should be measured, and will find endless ways to dispute the way their political opponents have measured them. Hence, the meanings, as used politically, are essentially pointless and illusory in nature. So yes, to bring it a little back around, how do we think democracies and capitalist societies would evolve on Faerun? (Reaching I know, but its something at least.)
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 05:49 PM	My problem with that is that the Middle class spending a little tends to add up to more than the Upper class spending a lot, simply by weight of numbers. -Not necessarily. The tax rebate checks for $300, for instance. They were designed to stimulate the economy by having people buy things. What did I do with it? Put it in my savings account, and that's that. I don't have much, and need to horde whatever little I do have. No stimulation. My case is hardly an isolated case, which is where my kind of reasoning comes in. The middle-class, more or less, is going to be saving that money, as it isn't particularly disposable. So, it isn't going to be 10 million people spending some or all of that money. It'll be a much smaller percentage than 100%. The rich, on the other hand, have plenty of money already, so they can go out a spend that money on whatever it is they want. Hence, why I believe in the trickle-down effect. As a side note, I completely agree that its no ones business what a pregnant mother does to herself, especially the State's. That's the whole self-determination thing that I think should apply to not just nations, but to individuals. -That's just called 'free will', and the government overextending it's reach. And, of course, the whole slippery-slope that causes. Those dummies simply could not grasp those concepts. So yes, to bring it a little back around, how do we think democracies and capitalist societies would evolve on Faerun? (Reaching I know, but its something at least.) -Well, the most striking and blatent capitalist society- Sembia- is no more, so the outlook isn't looking too good right now.
Therise 05-12-08, 05:59 PM	My problem with that is that the Middle class spending a little tends to add up to more than the Upper class spending a lot, simply by weight of numbers. I don't, and wouldn't, advocate removing wealth disportionately, which is why I'd favor a flat tax rate so that you're taxed at the same rate as everyone else, with little in the way of exemptions, so that everyone shares the same burden from their endeavors. Certainly the wealthy would end up paying more, but 10% of $50,000 versus 10% of 500,000 (for instance) is a considerable difference. (...) Such a system would doubly penalize the rich for engaging in business and spending large sums wisely (both of which are necessary for the middle class and the poor to have jobs), and would drive the poorest people into debtors' prisons. One might initially think that a flat tax rate benefits the middle class, but think of it this way. Say you have three children, one is an overacheiver, one is average, and the last is a lazy slob. Penalize the overachiever, and it sends a message immediately to the other two - that lots of work is ultimately a net loss. It says to the slob, "yeah, the rich -should- get a knife in the gut"; it says to the average one, "why bother working so hard?"; and it says to the overachiever, "your efforts are deeply appreciated by the poor so you get a nice gold star (and thanks for the cash)." Ultimately, all of these are lies, and will damage a healthy society. Over time with this policy, the overachiever will do less, the average one will -also- do proportionately less, and the lazy one won't be able afford anything at all because there are no "extras" to be gained by mooching off the other two (once the overachiever stops working harder and finds ways to protect the surplus they have -and- the average one has been told that drive and ambition are not rewarded). The argument that the overachiever still has the "most" is irrelevant because the entire family (i.e. society) is suffering as a whole. What looks "fair" from a prima facie point of view can often damage society. Better to simply reward reality, or rather, better to encourage those that are the most productive. In the end, while it may seem "nice", giving excessive benefits to the unproductive will lead to a stagnant society (or at best, one with minimal growth). People need to be compensated for their efforts, especially those who put out the most effort.
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 06:14 PM	-I like you more and more everyday. :P
Therise 05-12-08, 06:24 PM	-I like you more and more everyday. :P Who, me? :cool:
SmartPaladin 05-12-08, 07:04 PM	Such a system would doubly penalize the rich for engaging in business and spending large sums wisely (both of which are necessary for the middle class and the poor to have jobs), and would drive the poorest people into debtors' prisons. One might initially think that a flat tax rate benefits the middle class, but think of it this way. Say you have three children, one is an overacheiver, one is average, and the last is a lazy slob. Penalize the overachiever, and it sends a message immediately to the other two - that lots of work is ultimately a net loss. It says to the slob, "yeah, the rich -should- get a knife in the gut"; it says to the average one, "why bother working so hard?"; and it says to the overachiever, "your efforts are deeply appreciated by the poor so you get a nice gold star (and thanks for the cash)." Ultimately, all of these are lies, and will damage a healthy society. Over time with this policy, the overachiever will do less, the average one will -also- do proportionately less, and the lazy one won't be able afford anything at all because there are no "extras" to be gained by mooching off the other two (once the overachiever stops working harder and finds ways to protect the surplus they have -and- the average one has been told that drive and ambition are not rewarded). The argument that the overachiever still has the "most" is irrelevant because the entire family (i.e. society) is suffering as a whole. What looks "fair" from a prima facie point of view can often damage society. Better to simply reward reality, or rather, better to encourage those that are the most productive. In the end, while it may seem "nice", giving excessive benefits to the unproductive will lead to a stagnant society (or at best, one with minimal growth). People need to be compensated for their efforts, especially those who put out the most effort. Wow... -I like you more and more everyday. :P Yeah, I'm with Lord Karsus on this one. Quick question for all you Star Wars buffs, how many families do you think were torn apart because one member was a Jedi and the other a Sith? Where's the line between "They are the enemy!" and "Family..." Vader did it... There's no real law and rule saying that the Jedi and the Sith couldn't become "One".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-12-08, 07:12 PM	Better to simply reward reality, or rather, better to encourage those that are the most productive. In the end, while it may seem "nice", giving excessive benefits to the unproductive will lead to a stagnant society (or at best, one with minimal growth). People need to be compensated for their efforts, especially those who put out the most effort. Even professional liars like this person (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na5YeCerz2c)? Would you consider that "productive?" Trust me, I'm pretty libertarian, but I'm not too comfortable with the notion that making a lot of money necessarily means you happen to be a highly productive member of society.
Therise 05-12-08, 07:28 PM	Even professional liars like this person (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na5YeCerz2c)? Would you consider that "productive?" Trust me, I'm pretty libertarian, but I'm not too comfortable with the notion that making a lot of money necessarily means you happen to be a highly productive member of society. Well, generally speaking, both cream and scum will rise to the top in most any system, unless there are laws to prevent shams and chicanery. The fact that she (and others like her) exist, I suppose it's a testimony that we live in a relatively stable, productive society with surplus. But no, I would consider her kind to be counter-productive, as they reinforce mistaken beliefs in our society that lead to irrational decision making. Being productive isn't just about making lots of money, but actually contributing to society in a positive way. Laws should be made to criminalize what she does, but even in this day and age the general beliefs about what she does are very strongly entrenched.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-12-08, 07:44 PM	Well, generally speaking, both cream and scum will rise to the top in most any system, unless there are laws to prevent shams and chicanery. The fact that she (and others like her) exist, I suppose it's a testimony that we live in a relatively stable, productive society with surplus. But no, I would consider her kind to be counter-productive, as they reinforce mistaken beliefs in our society that lead to irrational decision making. Being productive isn't just about making lots of money, but actually contributing to society in a positive way. Laws should be made to criminalize what she does, but even in this day and age the general beliefs about what she does are very strongly entrenched. Thanks for clarifying your position, and I agree with the points you made.
Therise 05-12-08, 07:48 PM	Thanks for clarifying your position, and I agree with the points you made. Surely. :)
Khaelieth 05-12-08, 07:57 PM	-Well, the most striking and blatent capitalist society- Sembia- is no more, so the outlook isn't looking too good right now. Thay comes to mind. At least as an economic power, if not necessarily capitalist.
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 10:07 PM	Quick question for all you Star Wars buffs, how many families do you think were torn apart because one member was a Jedi and the other a Sith? Where's the line between "They are the enemy!" and "Family..." Vader did it... There's no real law and rule saying that the Jedi and the Sith couldn't become "One". -Jori and Gav Daragon. But no, I would consider her kind to be counter-productive, as they reinforce mistaken beliefs in our society that lead to irrational decision making. Being productive isn't just about making lots of money, but actually contributing to society in a positive way. Laws should be made to criminalize what she does, but even in this day and age the general beliefs about what she does are very strongly entrenched. -There are too many variables- and, of course, there is the resulting slippery slope that is created- for this to actually be a viable option. Thay comes to mind. At least as an economic power, if not necessarily capitalist. -Thay is no longer a major economic power, either. In 4e, Thayan embassies are closed down, and Szass Tam "banishes" the Thayans who manned these stations.
SmartPaladin 05-12-08, 10:27 PM	-Jori and Gav Daragon. I... Don't know them from Adam's house cat. Translation: Who?
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 10:36 PM	I... Don't know them from Adam's house cat. Translation: Who? -Wikipedia, my friend. Or, even better, Wookiepedia.
SmartPaladin 05-12-08, 11:15 PM	-Wikipedia, my friend. Or, even better, Wookiepedia. "Wookiepedia"? I think I can die in peace now... :rofl:
Lord Karsus 05-12-08, 11:29 PM	"Wookiepedia"? I think I can die in peace now... :rofl: Wookiepedia (www.starwars.wikia.com)
Vulpes 05-12-08, 11:39 PM	"Wookiepedia"? I think I can die in peace now... :rofl: The only wiki with a hairball problem! :rofl: Actually, it's a great resource. I've found myself lost in its Geonosian hive-warrens, clicking "Random Page" over and over again, many a time. Yes, I'm a nerd, and I'm totally proud of it!
Therise 05-13-08, 01:54 AM	-There are too many variables- and, of course, there is the resulting slippery slope that is created- for this to actually be a viable option. Indeed, I agree. But developing good fraud laws is part of the good fight for a more rational society - it's important to stand against the Sylvia Brownes and John Edwards of the world. :) It's just that magical thinking and empty hope have been ingrained in most (all?) human societies for millenia, rational logic and science being fairly new by comparison, and it's an incredibly difficult fight.
Stigger 05-13-08, 02:42 AM	Such a system would doubly penalize the rich for engaging in business and spending large sums wisely (both of which are necessary for the middle class and the poor to have jobs), and would drive the poorest people into debtors' prisons. We can hardly make a blanket statement without knowing the specifics of the system. And I've no idea how you come to the conclusion that the rich are being doubly penalized, unless you're making presumptions that there would still be things like capital gains taxes and the rest of that labrythine tax code. Personally, I'd do away with everything but the flat 10%, even as far as State income taxes are concerned. Ideally, there'd be a single 10% tax that has a portion going to the state and a portion to the fed. One might initially think that a flat tax rate benefits the middle class, but think of it this way. Say you have three children, one is an overacheiver, one is average, and the last is a lazy slob. Penalize the overachiever, and it sends a message immediately to the other two - that lots of work is ultimately a net loss. It says to the slob, "yeah, the rich -should- get a knife in the gut"; it says to the average one, "why bother working so hard?"; and it says to the overachiever, "your efforts are deeply appreciated by the poor so you get a nice gold star (and thanks for the cash)." Ultimately, all of these are lies, and will damage a healthy society. That seems like you're presuming that the welfare state is maintained. I'd prefer that a good majority of those social welfare programs went the way of the dodo, and got switched to more of a vocational training/job placement system. You don't work, you don't eat (with medical exceptions) would sum up my philosophy of it. You keep more of your actual income, have less of a tax rate, and more available money, so I see little reason why it would result in a net loss. Over time with this policy, the overachiever will do less, the average one will -also- do proportionately less, and the lazy one won't be able afford anything at all because there are no "extras" to be gained by mooching off the other two (once the overachiever stops working harder and finds ways to protect the surplus they have -and- the average one has been told that drive and ambition are not rewarded). The argument that the overachiever still has the "most" is irrelevant because the entire family (i.e. society) is suffering as a whole. Again, that mooching only occurs if we maintain a welfare state, which I'd be utterly in favor of destroying. What looks "fair" from a prima facie point of view can often damage society. Better to simply reward reality, or rather, better to encourage those that are the most productive. In the end, while it may seem "nice", giving excessive benefits to the unproductive will lead to a stagnant society (or at best, one with minimal growth). People need to be compensated for their efforts, especially those who put out the most effort. I see no reason to give any benefit to the unproductive. That's most of the reason communism failed as an economic system. As to the rebate issue, it shouldn't be surprising that a one-time stimulus is going to net minimal results. Increasing the amount of take-home pay however, will result in a much larger, much more sustainable boost to the economy, so long as the welfare state those taxes support is dismantled responsibly... that's the trick though. Realistically, I don't think any of this will ever happen, but I think it would probably work out better for the economy if it were to. As to Sembia, that was rather a circumstance beyond their control, being conquered and all, if I understood it correctly, and I'm not sure its a good example of things. Nor is Thay for that matter really... Seems like capitalisms new home might end up on the western coast, presuming the Spellplague leaves their economies relatively intact. Probably not, given the return of empty 'forgotten' (or whatever term they were using) spaces.
ikki 05-13-08, 03:39 AM	I see no reason to give any benefit to the unproductive. That's most of the reason communism failed as an economic system. 1) Productivity was punished, by ever higher quotas. Yes, they got bonuses too.. but those came in money, which was worthless, rather than say tradable goods. 2) So highly centralised that if noone from the very top specifically told you to put the ironshipment under a roof, or to use, they would leave it in the yard to rust. 3) They had no way at all to put prices on anything. Here you would take it for granted that say the added labor to making steelbars into tanks, would cover for the value of the labor, electricity etc. To them, none of the above made any sense.. or they couldnt possibly calculate it. Hence they had no clue if a bouquet of flowers, or a pound of caviar should be worth more.. especially if both took a manhour to collect. Or even on a wider scale.. a tonne of potatoes or a tank, thus it all came down to the personal desires of the central planners. Who rather poorly reflected the rest of the population, as they had access to shops that actually had products.
Stigger 05-13-08, 04:26 AM	All of which I see as benefiting the unproductive and/or incompetant, though I probably should have included incompetant with that remark. A guarantee of benefit, regardless of competance, gives little incentive to actually be competant, and leads to resentment and performing to the bare minimum standard (term used loosely), which inevitably leads to a failed economic model. A blanket statement I should have elaborated upon though I'll admit.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-13-08, 10:49 AM	-There are too many variables- and, of course, there is the resulting slippery slope that is created- for this to actually be a viable option. Well, we are talking about a person who dispenses medical advice even though she has no medical training whatsoever. I think she should be prevented from doing that at least.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-13-08, 10:50 AM	-Thay is no longer a major economic power, either. In 4e, Thayan embassies are closed down, and Szass Tam "banishes" the Thayans who manned these stations. I was thinking, weren't the stores his idea in the first place?
Khaelieth 05-13-08, 12:39 PM	I was thinking, weren't the stores his idea in the first place? Don't think so, was another Zulkir.
Stigger 05-13-08, 12:46 PM	Thought it was that little rolly-polly (Samas Thul or Kul or something like that) who ran the ministry of foreign trade, or whatever it was called who actually had the idea...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-13-08, 12:46 PM	Even if that's the case, I distinctly recall that Szass Tam was "pro-Embassy". I guess he's the type that goes where the wind's blowing, so to speak.
Stigger 05-13-08, 12:48 PM	Sure, think he was one of the earlier backers. Kinda makes me wonder how that works out, but I have a feeling we're not really going to find out in detail.
Lord Karsus 05-13-08, 02:01 PM	Well, we are talking about a person who dispenses medical advice even though she has no medical training whatsoever. I think she should be prevented from doing that at least. -It's a complicated issue, on many levels. I don't want to sound too...mean, or seem to come down like a ton of bricks, or something like that, but I am very passionate about these sorts of things, it seems. -What consitututes medical advice? Does one need to hold an actual PH,D in order to give medical advice? What about specialists, who have degrees in their respective fields, but don't have a pure PH,D? Are they qualified? What about nurses and physician's assistants, and regular ol' secretaries, who have picked up a thing or two? Do religious leaders qualify for this? People ask their religious leaders for advice, help, and so on. And, Grandma, who goes on and on about how chicken soup fixes everything. It's Jewish Penacillin, don't forget. Should she be barred from telling people to drink chicken soup? Or, when I have a headache, someone telling me to take an asprin? They are administering medical advice, technically. They should not be able to do this, should they not? -And, to muddy the waters even more, how to we enforce such a law? Doctor offices and hospitals are bugged and monitored, to watch for any nurses, or secretaries who give advice without being licensed? Secret police spy on you and your family to make sure that mom doesn't tell you to take an asprin when your head hurts. "Alternative" medicine, a lot of which has religious origins, disappear, as they cannot practice, opening up a whole new can of worms. -Again, it's complicated, and I'm not just trying to be mean, or anything. I guess he's the type that goes where the wind's blowing, so to speak. -Being a Lich, I bet someone who can make better jokes than I can can fashion something good with that one. ;)
Khaelieth 05-13-08, 02:29 PM	-What consitututes medical advice? Does one need to hold an actual PH,D in order to give medical advice? What about specialists, who have degrees in their respective fields, but don't have a pure PH,D? Are they qualified? What about nurses and physician's assistants, and regular ol' secretaries, who have picked up a thing or two? Do religious leaders qualify for this? People ask their religious leaders for advice, help, and so on. And, Grandma, who goes on and on about how chicken soup fixes everything. It's Jewish Penacillin, don't forget. Should she be barred from telling people to drink chicken soup? Or, when I have a headache, someone telling me to take an asprin? They are administering medical advice, technically. They should not be able to do this, should they not? -And, to muddy the waters even more, how to we enforce such a law? Doctor offices and hospitals are bugged and monitored, to watch for any nurses, or secretaries who give advice without being licensed? Secret police spy on you and your family to make sure that mom doesn't tell you to take an asprin when your head hurts. "Alternative" medicine, a lot of which has religious origins, disappear, as they cannot practice, opening up a whole new can of worms. Not too sure who you're on about, but i remember there was a quack (doing alternative medicine or something) who prescribed potassium pills (ions, luckily) to some poor woman. Now, anyone with any experience in chemistry knows what happens when you put pure potassium in water. it goes BOOM. As noted above, this turned out to ions, so it only almost killed the person. As for alternative medicine; it's basically placebo effects, or minor effects which proper medicine can do much better. E.g. aspirin, Romans used it in the form of salicylic acid from willow bark, which we later modified slightly to make aspirin. i don't see the danger in a grandma saying chicken soup makes you feel better; it's not going to make you any worse and they're not exactly taking money for "curing" you. Back on the topic of aspirin; if you've got a headache, it's common sense to take something that does cure it. You don't need anyone to tell you that, i hope. When in doubt, just check the label. Just don't overuse any sort of painkiller, as it begins to block your neural receptors after a while, requiring larger and larger doses (which is why i've only taken painkillers once in my life, which due to tearing the ligaments from my spine to my right hip.) Also, any pill has got a slight addictiveness to it. Sleeping pills, ibuprofen, aspirin etc., they've all got it. What was it that brought this up btw? Sorta derailed.
Stigger 05-13-08, 02:30 PM	Big difference between practicing medicine and dispensing advice on health...
Khaelieth 05-13-08, 02:36 PM	Which is why you usally need 7 years of education. But, if you go to someone who goes on about karma leading to headaches, you deserve whatever comes your way.
Lord Karsus 05-13-08, 02:48 PM	i don't see the danger in a grandma saying chicken soup makes you feel better; it's not going to make you any worse and they're not exactly taking money for "curing" you. -If grandma doesn't have the proper, what was it, seven years of medical training, she is not licensed to give proper medical advice. The law is the law, and exceptions cannot be made. Her telling you to drink chicken soup "unlicensed" is the same as crazy person whoever telling their 'patient' to take potassium pills. Back on the topic of aspirin; if you've got a headache, it's common sense to take something that does cure it. -Of course. But, if anyone tells you, given the scenario that was brought up, they are unqualified for distributing medical advice, as they don't have the proper training. The law is the law, very black and white. What was it that brought this up btw? Sorta derailed. -Something about the economy? I don't know, but I am enjoying it either way.
MarkusTay63 05-13-08, 02:50 PM	And the last few pages has to do with Reclamation how?! :uh-huh: I personally take a Holistic approach myself - you need all three to be 'in sync' in order to enjoy good Health. And by all three, I mean Body, Mind, and Soul (for those unfamiliar with Holistic Medicine). Thanks to the well-documented 'Placebo Effect', we have very good evidence that your mind and beliefs can influence your body's functioning. Wheather your beliefs are right or wrong or not doesn't really matter - but thats why they call it 'Faith'. It doesn't really matter WHAT you believe, as long as you BELIEVE. ;) So if you place your faith in a Medical Doctor, prayer, or the local Voodoo Shaman, whatever works for YOU is important.
Alediran 05-13-08, 02:54 PM	Yep, I also consider Holistics to be the right way to do it. The simple existance of people who can get sick just by thinking it is proof enough that a healthy mind goes a long way to healing the body.
Lord Karsus 05-13-08, 02:55 PM	And the last few pages has to do with Reclamation how?! :uh-huh: -They don't. -That said, the Placebo Effect can only do so much.
MarkusTay63 05-13-08, 03:04 PM	Oh, yea of little Faith. :P Faith can move mountains, my dear Lord Karsus... you of all people should know that. ;)
SmartPaladin 05-13-08, 03:08 PM	-Something about the economy? I don't know, but I am enjoying it either way. And I, as well. Watching Lord Karsus and everyone go on and on about, whatever, is highly entertaining. Almost educational. :P
Stigger 05-13-08, 03:26 PM	I say do whatever you want, listen to whomever you want, etcetera and so forth. About time we brought Natural Selection back into play with humanity afterall...
MarkusTay63 05-13-08, 03:45 PM	As far as the Sylvia Brown thing goes, I have seen her get things on the money - even things she couldn't have possbly known. John Edwards, on the other hand, is a complete charlatan. I taught my wife how to do what he does years ago, and she used to be one of the 'best' psychics on AOL back in the early 90's. We both had a good laugh - she has absolutely NO powers what-so-ever, but I taught her the art of 'cold reading' (which I do NOT do myself - it's just something I have naturally developed with my psychology background). Sylvia, on the other hand, occassionally suprises me, but not nearly as much as she professes. I think she is about 10-20% real 'talent', and 80% bulls__t. I think most psychics have an inkling of ability, but nothing like they let on, and they are wrong just as often, if not more so, then they are right. I had about a 90% accuracy rating, but only with my cousin, so I'll never know if there was anything there, or if it was just a familial intimacey. Sure, think he was one of the earlier backers. Kinda makes me wonder how that works out, but I have a feeling we're not really going to find out in detail.I think Szass just 'jumped on the band-wagon', as it were. If I recall correctly, there was only one Enclave he backed, and that one was located in a particular region he had an interest in. I did some research for the Ue thread on the Enclaves awhile back, and I had thought he was more involved as well, but it turns out he had very little to do with them.
Khaelieth 05-13-08, 03:53 PM	-If grandma doesn't have the proper, what was it, seven years of medical training, she is not licensed to give proper medical advice. The law is the law, and exceptions cannot be made. Her telling you to drink chicken soup "unlicensed" is the same as crazy person whoever telling their 'patient' to take potassium pills. -Of course. But, if anyone tells you, given the scenario that was brought up, they are unqualified for distributing medical advice, as they don't have the proper training. The law is the law, very black and white. -Something about the economy? I don't know, but I am enjoying it either way. She cannot give proper medical advice, unless she's got a doctor. But she can still give advice. And someone who harms someone else, regardless of intention gets punished. Whack someone walking on a pavement? A fine, if you're lucky. As for aspirin, it's freely available over the counter. Now, diclofenac, a proper painkiller, is not. Why? Because it's dangerous.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-13-08, 07:41 PM	Sylvia, on the other hand, occassionally suprises me, but not nearly as much as she professes. I think she is about 10-20% real 'talent', and 80% bulls__t. I think most psychics have an inkling of ability, but nothing like they let on, and they are wrong just as often, if not more so, then they are right. Then it's not psychic ability, it's cold-reading, guessing, or just plain making stuff up (OR, obtaining information beforehand!). The person receiving a reading is counted on to remember the hits and forget the misses. Sylvia Browne isn't less of a charlatan than John Edward.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-13-08, 07:51 PM	-It's a complicated issue, on many levels. I don't want to sound too...mean, or seem to come down like a ton of bricks, or something like that, but I am very passionate about these sorts of things, it seems. I don't think you're being mean.:) However, I also don't feel like debating about this as extensively as you seem to want to, sorry. Truth be told, I am a bit biased after having read about this subject quite extensively. It may not be strictly illegal for Sylvia Browne to say things like this (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/montel_susanandthemri.shtml), but I still find it repugnant (unethical, at the very least). It's certainly beyond the level of recommending chicken soup. Also, I'm not a lawyer, but having been educated in the legal field, I'm pretty certain that degrees of danger (say, chicken soup vs. adderol) would make a difference if it were being argued in court. But, as you say, there'd be other variables involved besides that.
Stigger 05-13-08, 08:05 PM	Since when have professional psychics ever subscribed to anything even remotely resembling ethics? The lack of said ethics is kinda implied in the job title. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-13-08, 08:06 PM	Since when have professional psychics ever subscribed to anything even remotely resembling ethics? The lack of said ethics is kinda implied in the job title. ;) Point taken. No argument there.
Lord Karsus 05-13-08, 09:28 PM	Oh, yea of little Faith. :P Faith can move mountains, my dear Lord Karsus... you of all people should know that. ;) -Yeah? I'd like to see some mountains moved. -Moving mountains via spells qualifies not as 'faith'. And I, as well. Watching Lord Karsus and everyone go on and on about, whatever, is highly entertaining. Almost educational. :P -Very educational, even.
Lord Karsus 05-13-08, 09:36 PM	She cannot give proper medical advice, unless she's got a doctor. But she can still give advice. And someone who harms someone else, regardless of intention gets punished. Whack someone walking on a pavement? A fine, if you're lucky. As for aspirin, it's freely available over the counter. Now, diclofenac, a proper painkiller, is not. Why? Because it's dangerous. -You are missing the point. Should administering medical advice ever be made illegal, period, it does not matter who is giving it out- as long as they are unqualified to do so- or, on what level they are giving it out. Spitting on the sidewalk is just as illegal as premeditated assassination. The punishments are different, or, would be different, in this theoretical case, but a crime is a crime. I don't think you're being mean.:) However, I also don't feel like debating about this as extensively as you seem to want to, sorry. -That's okay. But, and this goes with a lot of things, by simply looking at the top layer, things seem clear cut and obvious. But, when looking at things in-depth, things become much less clear cut and possible. Truth be told, I am a bit biased after having read about this subject quite extensively. It may not be strictly illegal for Sylvia Browne to say things like this (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/montel_susanandthemri.shtml), but I still find it repugnant (unethical, at the very least). -There's the rub. As I have continually been telling my dummy classmates, personal feelings don't have any place in lawmaking. Like I was discussing with Stig before, concerning economic policies, I am in favor of policies that would (more or less) hurt me. Why? Because I can rationalize that they are the best, most sensible and effective policies. Like I was telling my classmates, I don't place much creedence into organized religion, in the sense that they tell you the hows and whys on how to interact with the Divine, and think that those who blindly adhere to such things are detrimental to society, but, at the same time, I'd be willing to fight for everyone's inherent right to worship as they see fit.
Khaelieth 05-13-08, 09:47 PM	-You are missing the point. Should administering medical advice ever be made illegal, period, it does not matter who is giving it out- as long as they are unqualified to do so- or, on what level they are giving it out. Spitting on the sidewalk is just as illegal as premeditated assassination. The punishments are different, or, would be different, in this theoretical case, but a crime is a crime. No, i believe hurting people, willfully or not, should be punished. if your soup remedy doesn't do any harm - jog on. if your anthrax tea kills someone because it would heal their karma you're about to "lose" your slab of soap.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-13-08, 09:52 PM	-There's the rub. As I have continually been telling my dummy classmates, personal feelings don't have any place in lawmaking. I agree with that. Although, in this case my particular feelings aren't simply gut-reactions, they are something I've been thinking about quite a lot. I'd like to think that any law-making involves deep thought, but often it doesn't. I will think on the issue more, though, I'll say that much. :) Like I was telling my classmates, I don't place much creedence into organized religion, in the sense that they tell you the hows and whys on how to interact with the Divine, and think that those who blindly adhere to such things are detrimental to society, but, at the same time, I'd be willing to fight for everyone's inherent right to worship as they see fit. Same here. Part of living in a free country.
Lord Karsus 05-13-08, 09:52 PM	No, i believe hurting people, willfully or not, should be punished. if your soup remedy doesn't do any harm - jog on. if your anthrax tea kills someone because it would heal their karma your about to "lose" your slab of soap. -That you hurt somebody doesn't matter. The theoretical law bans providing unlicensed medical advice. That it heals you, or hurts you doesn't matter. Providing unlicensed medical advice that cures cancer, intentionally or unintentionally, would be illegal. Providing unlicensed medical advice that causes a perfectly healthy person so suddenly die, intentionally or unintentionally, would be equally illegal. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Note, though, that a law being on "the books", so to speak, and a law actually being enforced are two seperate things.
Khaelieth 05-13-08, 10:06 PM	-That you hurt somebody doesn't matter. The theoretical law bans providing unlicensed medical advice. That it heals you, or hurts you doesn't matter. Providing unlicensed medical advice that cures cancer, intentionally or unintentionally, would be illegal. Providing unlicensed medical advice that causes a perfectly healthy person so suddenly die, intentionally or unintentionally, would be equally illegal. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Note, though, that a law being on "the books", so to speak, and a law actually being enforced are two seperate things. Yes, if it hurts, it does matter. What happens if a doctor F|_|cks up? He gets punished, malpractice and all that. That's why most civilised nations have compensations for people whose doctors have made a mistake. Providing medical advice without any real papers to back it up would deem you a quack, but having to publish a scientific on the amount of protein in chicken soup is a bit useless. Chicken soup would help, i'm presuming, as chicken's full of protein, and to synthesise proteins used in stopping immunological attacks, you need protein. That's why healthy beings generally are better off, as they use muscle protein to synthesise whatever the immune system needs. Law and medicine aren't necessarily the same thing. 95% of neurological surgeons in California have been sued by their patients at some point.
Lord Karsus 05-13-08, 10:12 PM	Yes, if it hurts, it does matter. -No it doesn't. The theoretical law is that it be made illegal to "[dispense] medical advice [without] no medical training whatsoever". It's so black and white, it belongs in a 1920's nickel movie theater. How's that for a bad joke! If you have the proper credentials, you can dispense medical advice legally. If you don't have the proper credentials, you cannot dispense medical advice legally, and risk retribution every time you do so. That's all there is to it. That the advice helps or hurts, intentionally or unintentionally, is extraneous and does not matter. You can spit on the sidewalk because you want to portray yourself as a rebel, and be ticketed. You can spit on the sidewalk because there is some bad tasting phelgm in your mouth, and still be ticketed.
lowtech 05-14-08, 01:19 AM	The evolution of this thread has convinced me that it would be a good idea to continue visiting this site after Fourth Edition is released. Just thought I'd mention that, carry on. :rofl:
Stigger 05-14-08, 01:51 AM	Sure, the theoretical law says that, but mitigating circumstances are present, which is why we have judges presiding over things like this. ;)
Khaelieth 05-14-08, 07:18 AM	-No it doesn't. The theoretical law is that it be made illegal to "[dispense] medical advice [without] no medical training whatsoever". It's so black and white, it belongs in a 1920's nickel movie theater. How's that for a bad joke! If you have the proper credentials, you can dispense medical advice legally. If you don't have the proper credentials, you cannot dispense medical advice legally, and risk retribution every time you do so. That's all there is to it. That the advice helps or hurts, intentionally or unintentionally, is extraneous and does not matter. You can spit on the sidewalk because you want to portray yourself as a rebel, and be ticketed. You can spit on the sidewalk because there is some bad tasting phelgm in your mouth, and still be ticketed. You're not getting what i'm trying to say. There's a difference between proper medical advice and Granny's medical advice. But if does matter if a doctor makes things worse. it's called malpractice.
Lord Karsus 05-14-08, 12:23 PM	Sure, the theoretical law says that, but mitigating circumstances are present, which is why we have judges presiding over things like this. ;) -Right. The judge determines any punishments, if any. Plea bargaining determines if the case actually goes to court or not. But, that said, based on what the theoretical law is, a crime is being committed. You're not getting what i'm trying to say. There's a difference between proper medical advice and Granny's medical advice. -That is where you are wrong. With a theoretical law that states that it is "illegal to "[dispense] medical advice [without any] medical training whatsoever", it doesn't matter if it's the Feng Shui specialist giving you the advice, the psychic giving you the advice, or grandma giving you the advice. If none of them have the proper license, all are breaking the law.
Khaelieth 05-14-08, 02:27 PM	-That is where you are wrong. With a theoretical law that states that it is "illegal to "[dispense] medical advice [without any] medical training whatsoever", it doesn't matter if it's the Feng Shui specialist giving you the advice, the psychic giving you the advice, or grandma giving you the advice. If none of them have the proper license, all are breaking the law. But the theoretical law doesn't exist for a reason. And Granny doesn't take any money for dispensing advice. That's a huge difference too.
Lord Karsus 05-14-08, 02:39 PM	But the theoretical law doesn't exist for a reason. -Of course. I gave numerous reasosn why it doesn't/wouldn't/shouldn't earlier. But, we're talking in theory here, as if it did. And Granny doesn't take any money for dispensing advice. That's a huge difference too. -Does the theoretical law say that money has to be involved? Nope. Thus, the transaction of money doesn't matter, either. I don't know how familia you are with law, but it's very black and white. Let's use an existing law, to illustrate. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter if you spit on the sidewalk because you want to look cool, or if you spit on the sidewalk because you have some nasty tasting phlegm that you just coughed up. You spit, and a law enforcement official who has jurisdiction over you can ticket/arrest you, and rightly so. The law says (this is just making it up as I go, mind you) "No one shall spit on the sidewalks, lest they recieve a $50.00 fine and/or jail time/community service time". Spit for no reason, and that's your punishment. Spit with a reason, and that's your punishment. -On a related note that, in most jurisdictions, there are laws making spitting on the street/sidewalk a punishible offense, but no laws making vomiting on the street/sidewalk a punishable offense.
Stigger 05-14-08, 04:41 PM	Money changing hands doesn't usually matter much for stuff like that legally, simply the act of. Money changing hands only aggravates the charge if cases where a given act is illegal period. As much as it chagrins me to acknowledge it, LK is correct (that part doesn't bother me much) in that the law is generally very black and white (this part does), although a decent lawyer could argue nuances enough to make it very gray in a lot of cases, if not most.
Lord Karsus 05-14-08, 04:50 PM	As much as it chagrins me to acknowledge it, LK is correct... -It chagrins you!? :pbbbtt: :P ...although a decent lawyer could argue nuances enough to make it very gray in a lot of cases, if not most. -Well, of course. As I said earlier, the judge determines any punishments, if any. In a court system that is already "clogged", so to speak, it is likely that things of this nature would only go to court when they are very serious. Say, like selling presciption medicines to those who aren't supposed to have them. Like Jay Walking, police have the disgression to enforce the law on a whim, as long as they are in their jurisdiction, and as they have better things to do, won't be spying on your conversation between you and grandma, and in the unlikely chance they do, they won't be acting upon anything.
Stigger 05-14-08, 04:53 PM	The black and white part of the law, not agreeing with you, which I indicated had you read more carefully. :P
Lord Karsus 05-14-08, 04:58 PM	:blush: -Oh... :embarrass
MarkusTay63 05-14-08, 04:58 PM	I've seen Sylvia Brown pull valid facts that would have been completely beyond guessing out of her as_, so yeah... once in awhile she shows some actual talent. John Edwards, on the other hand, does his readings in a completely controlled environment, and it has been said by ex-employees of his that he records conversations of people in line for the show, and has 'plants' also stationed in line and in the audience. There is a GREAT Southpark episode featuring John Edwards, where he is given an award for being the ultimate du__bag - I couldn't agree with that assesment more. BTW, SP is one of the funniest pieces of political commentary around, and one of the most accurate. If people can get beyond the 'locker room' humor, the show is pretty deep. -Yeah? I'd like to see some mountains moved. -Moving mountains via spells qualifies not as 'faith'.You have no faith in YOUR ability to move mountains? If you do not BELIEVE your spell will work, it will fail. Read Jack Vance if you want to know how D&D magic works. The spells are powered by your MIND (memorizing 'eldritch' matrixes), and if you do not believe in your own ability to empower them, they do not function. Now, in FR, it is established canon that divine magic MUST come from a deity, and cannot come from 'within', as it does in other settings (beliefs in concepts). However, you CAN receive 'divine' power from a dead deity, if you take a certain feat, which sort of contradicts that particular piece of canon. Secondly, we see from some of the Avatar novels that divine magic is nothing more then Arcane magic 'funneled' through a god. That means if a character were to become powerful enough to empower his own beliefs, he would not need 'divine' assistance in that regard. And what is an 'Archmage', after all, except little more then a demigod (when compared with most mortals)? The truth is, there was NO 12th level spell - it was Karsus' belief in his own ability to do what he did that empowered that piece of magic. Thats what epic magic and spell seeds is all about. The fact is, people who are born without that 'divine spark' have to rely on Deities. Those with that spark - which is nothing more then spiritual fortitude - can be their own masters, and use Arcane spells directly. 'Faith' my friend, can be about anything, not just a 'god'. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-14-08, 05:15 PM	You have no faith in YOUR ability to move mountains? -No, because Humans do not have such abilities. However, you CAN receive 'divine' power from a dead deity, if you take a certain feat, which sort of contradicts that particular piece of canon. -I've surmised that this is due to the random Essentia/Incarnum/Soul Energies that diffuse throughout the world. That's the only thing that I can make sense of it, anyway, asides for it just being another deity answering the prayers. And what is an 'Archmage', after all, except little more then a demigod (when compared with most mortals)? The truth is, there was NO 12th level spell - it was Karsus' belief in his own ability to do what he did that empowered that piece of magic. Thats what epic magic and spell seeds is all about. -Uh...No...There was a 12th Level Spell Karsus' Avatar, and all were able to function because of the Weave, which allows for (mostly) harmless interaction between Raw Magic and mortals. The fact is, people who are born without that 'divine spark' have to rely on Deities. Those with that spark - which is nothing more then spiritual fortitude - can be their own masters, and use Arcane spells directly. -Not in D&D, or the Forgotten Realms, if you want to go into esoterics like that.
Stigger 05-14-08, 05:36 PM	Faith is belief in something external, Will is belief in something internal. Subtle difference, but it makes all the difference in the world. :P
MarkusTay63 05-14-08, 05:37 PM	Who has seen the spell Karsus' Avatar? The only one that would actually be aware of any such spell died when it was cast, so it is basically just a supposition that such a thing existed. ;) And as far as your last statement, NO, as I have pointed out. Mystra was able to deny deities the ability to send their worshippers spells, whiich is CANON, and Mystra ONLY has say over ARCANE magic, which is also CANON. Ergo, divine spells are nothing more then Arcane magic funneled through a deity, as I have said. If your god gives you the spell, it has the 'divine' magic nomicker attached to it, nothing more. Please note, that in 3e, many of the spells were shared by Wizards and Priests, but not neccessarily at the same levels. By the way, when I said YOU, I meant Karsus... since when do you slip out of character? :confused: Either way, in other settings, you can 'receive' divine spells from your beliefs, rather then a deity, and as I pointed out, you can basically do the same in FR by taking the right Feat. So wheather you have Faith in your own abilites, or that of your god, you are able to perform 'miracles', as it were, simply by having Faith.
Stigger 05-14-08, 05:39 PM	Except for the whole WEAVE thing she has province over... which is (was) the important part for both arcane and divine magic.
Lord Karsus 05-14-08, 05:52 PM	Who has seen the spell Karsus' Avatar? The only one that would actually be aware of any such spell died when it was cast, so it is basically just a supposition that such a thing existed. ;) -AGHotR states that Karsus cast Karsus' Avatar, meaning that it did, in fact, happen, no ifs, ands or buts. And as far as your last statement, NO, as I have pointed out. Mystra was able to deny deities the ability to send their worshippers spells, whiich is CANON, and Mystra ONLY has say over ARCANE magic, which is also CANON. -Mystra can block the individual divine caster from using the divine inspiration granted by the individual's deity from using that inspiration to access the Weave, yes. Divine Magic taps the Weave, in so much as it uses it as a medium to "express itself" in a (meta)physical form. Ergo, divine spells are nothing more then Arcane magic funneled through a deity, as I have said. If your god gives you the spell, it has the 'divine' magic nomicker attached to it, nothing more. Please note, that in 3e, many of the spells were shared by Wizards and Priests, but not neccessarily at the same levels. -Divine spells are spells granted by a deity, funneled through the Weave. A Cleric has to pray for spells, a deity has to grant the Cleric said spells, and then the Cleric needs to cast said spells, in which he/she interacts with the Weave.
MarkusTay63 05-14-08, 06:11 PM	A person who adheres only to the facts he can see and touch has no Faith, so this argument is rather pointles, I'm afraid. :( I thought that you were going to reference that abomination that the spell originally appeared in - the Netheril boxed set, which is the very definition of bad source and inconsistencies. You caught me of-gaurd there with the GHotRs reference... which also has it's share on inconsistencies (though none of which is the fault of the authors - just years and years of lore being written by different individuals). Touche'. ;) @Stigger , isn't 'Will' just your own belief in your ability to overcome an obstacle, wheather it being a new track record, or moving through a wall? Saying Faith and Will are two seperate things is really splitting hairs (are you a lawyer, by chance?). Two sides to the same coin perhaps, but definately closely related. More like one belief's being manifested in different ways. Why did the 'spell' Karsus' Avatar work? Mostly, because Karsus KNEW it would. :) I can also point out at least three other canon examples of how people figured out other alternatives to the Phaerimm 'problem', so Karsus wasn't neccesarily right in that either - he just had 'Faith' that his was the only answer. After all, a genius (with a monumental ego) couldn't possibly be wrong, could he? I still think Karsus must have had some Gold Elven blood in him to have such hubruis. :P
Khaelieth 05-14-08, 06:20 PM	-Does the theoretical law say that money has to be involved? Nope. Thus, the transaction of money doesn't matter, either. I don't know how familia you are with law, but it's very black and white. Let's use an existing law, to illustrate. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter if you spit on the sidewalk because you want to look cool, or if you spit on the sidewalk because you have some nasty tasting phlegm that you just coughed up. You spit, and a law enforcement official who has jurisdiction over you can ticket/arrest you, and rightly so. The law says (this is just making it up as I go, mind you) "No one shall spit on the sidewalks, lest they recieve a $50.00 fine and/or jail time/community service time". Spit for no reason, and that's your punishment. Spit with a reason, and that's your punishment. -On a related note that, in most jurisdictions, there are laws making spitting on the street/sidewalk a punishible offense, but no laws making vomiting on the street/sidewalk a punishable offense. Law over here isn't black and white; it's based on the verdict of previous cases. But i'd say malpractice applies to ANYONE that pretend to be "doctors". if you something, even with the correct licenses and education, you can still get slammed hard for not doing your job correctly. it's job i'm aiming at here. if your job's to cure people and you make them worse, that might equal malpractice. Obviously, this can be misused, 95% of all Californian neurosurgeons have been sued, which is why i'm against sueing any doctor for malpractice; just suspend him if what he's done is that bad.
msatran 05-14-08, 06:34 PM	You're not getting what i'm trying to say. There's a difference between proper medical advice and Granny's medical advice. But if does matter if a doctor makes things worse. it's called malpractice. Too bad that the price of malpractice insurance exceeds medical income. The problem with malpractice suits is that they've gotten out of hand, so now doctors are paupers. Do you realize that in half the states in the USA, there's a legal number of babies that an ob/gyn specialist is legally allowed to deliver, no matter the emergency, and if he attempts to exceed that number he can automatically be sued by anyone whose baby was above the legal limit? So don't blame bad medical care on the medical profession. Blame it on the insurance companies who make it impossible for the medical industry to go to work.
Lord Karsus 05-14-08, 06:41 PM	Law over here isn't black and white; it's based on the verdict of previous cases. -The law itself is very black and white. Either you did something which attracted law enforcement's attention, or you didn't. You are confusing the precident set by court cases with the the penal code, which I am wording as "the law".
Stigger 05-14-08, 06:44 PM	@Stigger , isn't 'Will' just your own belief in your ability to overcome an obstacle, wheather it being a new track record, or moving through a wall? Saying Faith and Will are two seperate things is really splitting hairs (are you a lawyer, by chance?). Two sides to the same coin perhaps, but definately closely related. More like one belief's being manifested in different ways. Nope, not a lawyer. And its not splitting hairs as far as I'm concerned. Faith being external requires something greater than yourself to grant you the power. It requires the sublimation of the self to act as a vessel for something greater than yourself, and a surrender to that greater. Sure, you have belief, but its entirely externalized and you rely on that belief to empower yourself. Take away whatever is fueling that belief, and it either has to be replaced, or the vessel collapses like a flan in cupboard, so to speak. Will however, is rooted entirely in the self. You are the source of your own empowerment, and require nothing other than yourself to focus belief into action. Everything about it comes on your own terms, with no conditions beyond those you place upon yourself, where a person with faith must adhere to a set of conditions that they were placed upon them in return for divine favor. Certainly one could possess both (which is another reason I say they are very different things), and they often can (and mechanically should to a greater degree than they do) enhance each other, but are ultimately independant of each other. As to Karsus' spell, in terms of canon, it exists, like it or not. And as with most things where Karsus was concerned, ego and hubris drove him to never look beyond himself, a definite danger to anyone who commands power of any variety. I'm seriously thinking you'd probably love the WoD stuff Markus, Mage in particular, there's a lot more room to get into serious metaphysics and philosophy than D&D really allows.
Khaelieth 05-14-08, 07:29 PM	-The law itself is very black and white. Either you did something which attracted law enforcement's attention, or you didn't. You are confusing the precident set by court cases with the the penal code, which I am wording as "the law". in the end it's obviously black or white, but there are alot of greyzones before reaching a verdict. A jury is never gonna convict a chicken soup Granny, but they very well might convict the quack who told the victim that sleeping with virgins cures aids.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-14-08, 08:47 PM	I've seen Sylvia Brown pull valid facts that would have been completely beyond guessing out of her as_, so yeah... once in awhile she shows some actual talent. Again, that probably comes back to the fact that the person being read is likely to remember the hits and forget the misses. Every now and then, the psychic will make a wild-ass guess. If it happens to be a correct guess, it seems amazing, and indictive of paranormal ability. If the guess is wrong, the reader will quickly move on, or perhaps try to turn the miss into a hit (often with the help of the client!). You yourself mentioned that you taught your wife how to do cold-reading.:) With some practice (and the right kind of personality), a person can learn how to be "psychic". John Edwards, on the other hand, does his readings in a completely controlled environment, and it has been said by ex-employees of his that he records conversations of people in line for the show, and has 'plants' also stationed in line and in the audience. I totally agree (I've read the same thing), but I'm not convinced that he's somehow worse than Sylvia Browne. When she appears on pre-recorded talk shows, she's going to be editted, too. Most of what she tells people is very, very vague, or couldn't be confirmed in any way (ie. what the name of someone's "spirit guide" is:rolleyes: ). You have no faith in YOUR ability to move mountains? If you do not BELIEVE your spell will work, it will fail. Read Jack Vance if you want to know how D&D magic works. The spells are powered by your MIND (memorizing 'eldritch' matrixes), and if you do not believe in your own ability to empower them, they do not function. That's all in fantasy stories. Not trying to be mean, but I did say I was a skeptic. :) 'Faith' my friend, can be about anything, not just a 'god'. ;) And it can also be terribly misplaced, as my previous link shows.
Lord Karsus 05-14-08, 10:36 PM	in the end it's obviously black or white, but there are alot of greyzones before reaching a verdict. A jury is never gonna convict a chicken soup Granny, but they very well might convict the quack who told the victim that sleeping with virgins cures aids. -We're not talking about the trial phase. I said that specifically, and you are getting ahead of yourself. We are talking about the law, as in the penal code. Or, were, rather.
MarkusTay63 05-15-08, 07:34 AM	Yes, cold reading is easily learnable, and the better you are at naturally 'reading people', the better you will be at it. My wife did it over AOL in the early 90's, and thats a lot harder to do then doing it is face-to-face (when you can read body language), but still entirely possible. She got a reputation as being one of the most accurate psychics that used to participate in their boards back then... and she was a total fraud. :D For instance, the first assumption one must make when doing it is that the person asking for the reading is worried about something. ;) Then its just a matter of leading the horse to water... :cool: But a couple of times - not many mind you - I've seen Sylvia come up with some pretty bizarre, yet accurate, 'guesses'. Like the time she mentioned to someone that a Hat was found at a crime scene. Pretty weird, considering it was in the middle of nowhere, and not at a residence or other busy area. That fact was never released by the police, yet she knew a hat was found nearby. If that was a guess, it was a pretty damn good one. :eek: Mind You, I have some of my own theories, and I really don't believe in 'Ghosts', at least not in the same way most people do. I have a much more scientific way of lookin at the paranormal, based primarily on alternate quantum universes (which are nothing more then slices of time that science should some day be able to access). So, does Sylvia talk to spirits? I severely doubt it. But does she have some ability that allows her to 'view' information that she should not know... perhaps. I've also had some rather... 'strange' expeiences in my life, and am on a quest to better explain them to my normally logical mind (including a 'lost time' episode). I've seen way too many things personally to be a complete skeptic, but I do try to look for the most resonable explanation in every case.
Khaelieth 05-15-08, 07:58 AM	http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1996710.html?menu=news.quirkies.sexli fe That's the kind of person that will be done in for breaking the law...
MarkusTay63 05-15-08, 08:26 AM	They should have let him bleed to death. :rolleyes: Darwinism is dead - we coddle the stupid, when natural selection is supposed to remove them from the Gene pool. The human race is doomed. :(
capnvan 05-15-08, 08:40 AM	But, to get back to the point... :pile:
Khaelieth 05-15-08, 09:10 AM	They should have let him bleed to death. :rolleyes: Darwinism is dead - we coddle the stupid, when natural selection is supposed to remove them from the Gene pool. The human race is doomed. :( Us two can repopulate the world! Just you're having the babies. Perhaps let Stigger join in too, the more the merrier!
MarkusTay63 05-15-08, 09:16 AM	Unfortunealty, my four boys take after their mother, for the most part. Good kids, but not exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. :(
Khaelieth 05-15-08, 09:18 AM	Well, you'll have to make new ones! Better ones!
Alediran 05-15-08, 09:42 AM	The problem is that Intelligence is like a mutation. There is no sure way that our descendants will be smart like us.
MarkusTay63 05-15-08, 09:55 AM	"Smart like us" :rofl: And I feel this way because I still like to play a game since I was kid, using little toy soldiers. :D Anyhow, I had decided in HS, when I first learned about genetics, that I was going to marry a black Amer-Asian. There have been a number of studies proving that the more varied the gene pool, the better the chances for higher IQs. I figured combining the main three races would give me an excellent chance of producing thoroughbreds. Then I fell in love with a beautiful idiot. :embarrass Actually, thats kind of mean... I'd say she's probably smarter then any of her friends, but thats not really saying much. :(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-15-08, 10:12 AM	Yes, cold reading is easily learnable, and the better you are at naturally 'reading people', the better you will be at it. My wife did it over AOL in the early 90's, and thats a lot harder to do then doing it is face-to-face (when you can read body language), but still entirely possible. She got a reputation as being one of the most accurate psychics that used to participate in their boards back then... and she was a total fraud. :D For instance, the first assumption one must make when doing it is that the person asking for the reading is worried about something. ;) Then its just a matter of leading the horse to water... :cool: Of course. All the important information comes from the person being read, the client/victim. But a couple of times - not many mind you - I've seen Sylvia come up with some pretty bizarre, yet accurate, 'guesses'. Like the time she mentioned to someone that a Hat was found at a crime scene. Pretty weird, considering it was in the middle of nowhere, and not at a residence or other busy area. That fact was never released by the police, yet she knew a hat was found nearby. If that was a guess, it was a pretty damn good one. :eek: Most likely, she didn't "know" it, it was a lucky guess. And odds are it did nothing to help the police actually solve the crime. Most of her guesses are waaay off. Which prompts the question, why on earth would you seek help in such a serious matter (crime investigation) from someone who's making random, unhelpful guesses? So, does Sylvia talk to spirits? I severely doubt it. But does she have some ability that allows her to 'view' information that she should not know... perhaps. Perhaps. But I think the more likely explanation is that she uses cold-reading, or guesses, or obtains information beforehand (which is not that hard to do now that we have the internet). If she truly is "psychic", she does not appear to be a particularly effective one. And mind you, everything I just said about her does not apply only to her. I've also had some rather... 'strange' expeiences in my life, and am on a quest to better explain them to my normally logical mind (including a 'lost time' episode). I've seen way too many things personally to be a complete skeptic, but I do try to look for the most resonable explanation in every case. That's a good thing.:) Remember to emply Occam's Razor.
MarkusTay63 05-15-08, 10:33 AM	Always. But I have witnessed (along with at least five other people) an object move of it's own volition, have heard unexplainable noises when there shouldn't have been anyone else around, have 'lost time' (as I mentioned earlier), and had an uncanny ability to accurately describe ANY object my cousin drew on a page - but ONLY with my cousin, which doesn't help to prove anything. The object moving by itself was supposedly a ghost, but I later found a much better, though still not 'normal', explanation for it. That explanation came from someone who didn't know the girl who was involved in the incident all that well, but knew more about her then she herself did. I deleted the rest of this post, because I didn't feel like getting into any argumants or explaining myself, but I have seen some pretty weird s__t first-hand, so my deniability is a bit skewed on this topic.
Lord Karsus 05-15-08, 10:37 AM	http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1996710.html?menu=news.quirkies.sexli fe That's the kind of person that will be done in for breaking the law... -That's uh...interesting. No animals were hurt, though. That's good.
Khaelieth 05-15-08, 11:01 AM	-That's uh...interesting. No animals were hurt, though. That's good. Read about the Congolese ***** snatching? http://uk.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUKL2290323220080422?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 Edit: i cannot say that!? it's a body part!
Lord Karsus 05-15-08, 11:23 AM	Read about the Congolese ***** snatching? http://uk.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUKL2290323220080422?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 Edit: i cannot say that!? it's a body part! -Yes, yes I have, actually.
Therise 05-15-08, 12:31 PM	Read about the Congolese ***** snatching? http://uk.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUKL2290323220080422?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 Edit: i cannot say that!? it's a body part! So... really? What do the "sorcerers" -do- with them after they supposedly steal them? Do the police try to find and "return" them to their owners? "Here you go, N'dugu, but we're not sure how to restore it, though". **hands over a jar** :eek: It's truly amazing what people will believe. Perception over-rides reality again.
Therise 05-15-08, 12:43 PM	There have been a number of studies proving that the more varied the gene pool, the better the chances for higher IQs. Uhm, no. In my professional life, I study intelligence and intelligent behavior. There has never been a scientific study "proving" anything of the kind, nor even suggesting anything of the kind. In order to prove anything about intelligence, you'd have to have controlled (as in, similar to eugenics) studies - which have never been done (and will never be done). The closest you might be able to get is a well-done correlation study, which can't prove anything. That said, intelligence is not a real "thing", it is a statistical construct used to predict future behavior.
Khaelieth 05-15-08, 02:52 PM	Uhm, no. In my professional life, I study intelligence and intelligent behavior. There has never been a scientific study "proving" anything of the kind, nor even suggesting anything of the kind. In order to prove anything about intelligence, you'd have to have controlled (as in, similar to eugenics) studies - which have never been done (and will never be done). The closest you might be able to get is a well-done correlation study, which can't prove anything. That said, intelligence is not a real "thing", it is a statistical construct used to predict future behavior. As i've done quite a bit of genetics at uni level, i'd say that genetic diversity prevents stupidity (to a certain degree), as it prevents inbreeding. But we're genetically so alike; you can't tell a Masai from a Peruvian. Yet. i was wondering about something though; does your iq increase with education? Has this been proven statistically? Because i remember when i was at school, i felt as smart as my mates, but now i feel considerably smarter than them.
Lord Karsus 05-15-08, 03:05 PM	As i've done quite a bit of genetics at uni level, i'd say that genetic diversity prevents stupidity (to a certain degree), as it prevents inbreeding. But we're genetically so alike; you can't tell a Masai from a Peruvian. Yet. -Don't say that. I was using the examples of me being genetically similar enough to a Hutu tribesman in Burundi to demonstrate a point I was making, and was admonished for it. i was wondering about something though; does your iq increase with education? Has this been proven statistically? Because i remember when i was at school, i felt as smart as my mates, but now i feel considerably smarter than them. -I am going to have to say yes, in so much that the benchmarks used to test IQ are reading and math related, both of which are subjects that are always taught, and increase in difficulty as one recieves more education. In other words, the more math you know, and the better reading comprehension you have, the higher your IQ will be.
Therise 05-15-08, 03:07 PM	As i've done quite a bit of genetics at uni level, i'd say that genetic diversity prevents stupidity (to a certain degree), as it prevents inbreeding. But we're genetically so alike; you can't tell a Masai from a Peruvian. Yet. i was wondering about something though; does your iq increase with education? Has this been proven statistically? Because i remember when i was at school, i felt as smart as my mates, but now i feel considerably smarter than them. Intelligence scores depend on a number of variables, from neurological integrity to education. It predicts how well one will do in school, specifically schools that require a lot of test taking. IQ tests depend on factual knowledge (particularly vocabulary and math skills) as well as process abilities (less about facts, more about puzzling things out, visually and verbally), memory, and simple speed. They aren't so much about being smart (although this depends on how one defines "smart") as they are about being effective and efficient. And they test next to nothing about street smarts, emotional understanding and creativity, which qualify as intelligent behavior in the real world.
Khaelieth 05-15-08, 03:09 PM	Slightly back on medicine again... They've got medicines that shouldn't be combined with certain other medicines or chemicals (antibiotics and alcohol for one). Now, today i washed my hair with a coconut scented shampoo. A female friend suggested this. Now, i also used the new Axe shower gel. Which is chocolate scented. And now i smell like a bounty bar (coconut chocolate). Now, they should've printed a warning on their products! i'll wait for TheRise's answer; she's got some authority on that, i can deduce the same answer that you did LK, which is why i asked for statistic evidence=) Edit: Our posts overlapped. i thought iq was sorta seeing patterns and stuff? And i didn't ask about EQ, as is social skills imo.
Therise 05-15-08, 03:18 PM	I am going to have to say yes, in so much that the benchmarks used to test IQ are reading and math related, both of which are subjects that are always taught, and increase in difficulty as one recieves more education. In other words, the more math you know, and the better reading comprehension you have, the higher your IQ will be. It's much more accurate to say that the -higher- end of IQ scores depends to a larger degree on education. But there are diminishing returns for education. By that, I mean that one could not obtain a really high IQ score -without- having had a quality education - but as there are many other variables involved (speed, process abilities, neurological integrity, physical condition at the time of the test, etc), it's not easy to tease all of these things apart and say with certainty that one variable is paramount. IQ tests are good for one thing and not much else: predicting how well someone will do on another, similar test (and therefore how well someone will do in school, particularly Western schools).
Therise 05-15-08, 03:26 PM	Our posts overlapped. i thought iq was sorta seeing patterns and stuff? And i didn't ask about EQ, as is social skills imo. IQ tests definitely have a component of pattern deduction. For example, the Wechsler IQ test (probably the one that's most used) has subtests for pattern recognition, block design (building designs with blocks), etc... but you'll also see subtests in the Wechsler that wholly depend on vocab and math. See here for the Wechsler (http://wilderdom.com/personality/intelligenceWAISWISC.html). This is just a quickie pointer, I googled and grabbed a link that looked okay. And things like Emotional Quotients (EQ) aren't tapped by the Wechsler. Whether or not an EQ is useful for anything (like school performance), is dubious.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-15-08, 03:38 PM	Slightly back on medicine again... They've got medicines that shouldn't be combined with certain other medicines or chemicals (antibiotics and alcohol for one). Now, today i washed my hair with a coconut scented shampoo. A female friend suggested this. Now, i also used the new Axe shower gel. Which is chocolate scented. And now i smell like a bounty bar (coconut chocolate). Now, they should've printed a warning on their products! Coconut Chocolate? Yum.:D Re: Medical advice and the law. This thread has moved me to do some further research into what various laws actually say about this. If I get my personal research done in a timely manner (disclaimer: that may not happen:embarrass ), I'll post what I find here.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-15-08, 03:42 PM	Therise, thanks for the interesting information about intelligence.:)
Therise 05-15-08, 03:47 PM	Therise, thanks for the interesting information about intelligence.:) Surely, glad to. :) Please feel free to stop me if I get too tangential, though. I do that fairly often. :)
Lord Karsus 05-15-08, 04:24 PM	Coconut Chocolate? Yum.:D Re: Medical advice and the law. This thread has moved me to do some further research into what various laws actually say about this. If I get my personal research done in a timely manner (disclaimer: that may not happen:embarrass ), I'll post what I find here. -Concerning drugs, it is much more clear cut. In the U.S., drugs cannot be sold on the legal market without the approval of the FDA. The FDA tests safety and efficacy of these products, and if they pass, they are allowed into the legal market. The same thing goes with most foods, beverages, and cosmetics. Dietary supplements don't fall within the category of drugs anymore, which is why things like TrimSpa, or whatever else have the standard, 'This product has not been reviewed, or endorsed by the FDA', or whatever it is that the disclaimer says. -Concerning actual oral/written advice, things get much more mucky. I was unable to find any relevant laws for NY, NJ, or on the federal level, but there is certainly a degree of "reckless endangerment" involved in certain claims. For example, claiming that swallowing bleach will cure a sore throat certain seems to be have both reckless and endangering elements to it. -Concerning actual laws, however, though I did say I was unable to find actual laws, it is clear to me that they exist. Somewhere, on some level of jurisdiction. The plethora of websites I have been visiting, looking for an answer, all seem to have a common factor: a disclaimer. Here's just one: "Information on the CMC website is not provided as medical advice, does not establish a patient-provider relationship, and is not intended nor should be assumed to guarantee a specific result. CMC makes no claim that the information presented in this site is comprehensive, or that other treatment options may be any more or less effective than those described here." -This leads me to believe that a lot of the...hooplah, could very well be based on a breach of oral contracts. For example, if the witchdoctor tells you to drink that bleach, as it will help your throat, and it doesn't, you do have grounds to sue, as silly as it seems. -I don't know, but I'll continue looking into it. I wish school hadn't just ended, because then I could "tap into" their large legal databases. -So, I hope some of that made sense, and/or helped in your research.
Khaelieth 05-15-08, 06:03 PM	-Concerning drugs, it is much more clear cut. In the U.S., drugs cannot be sold on the legal market without the approval of the FDA. The FDA tests safety and efficacy of these products, and if they pass, they are allowed into the legal market. The same thing goes with most foods, beverages, and cosmetics. Dietary supplements don't fall within the category of drugs anymore, which is why things like TrimSpa, or whatever else have the standard, 'This product has not been reviewed, or endorsed by the FDA', or whatever it is that the disclaimer says. -Concerning actual oral/written advice, things get much more mucky. I was unable to find any relevant laws for NY, NJ, or on the federal level, but there is certainly a degree of "reckless endangerment" involved in certain claims. For example, claiming that swallowing bleach will cure a sore throat certain seems to be have both reckless and endangering elements to it. -Concerning actual laws, however, though I did say I was unable to find actual laws, it is clear to me that they exist. Somewhere, on some level of jurisdiction. The plethora of websites I have been visiting, looking for an answer, all seem to have a common factor: a disclaimer. Here's just one: "Information on the CMC website is not provided as medical advice, does not establish a patient-provider relationship, and is not intended nor should be assumed to guarantee a specific result. CMC makes no claim that the information presented in this site is comprehensive, or that other treatment options may be any more or less effective than those described here." -This leads me to believe that a lot of the...hooplah, could very well be based on a breach of oral contracts. For example, if the witchdoctor tells you to drink that bleach, as it will help your throat, and it doesn't, you do have grounds to sue, as silly as it seems. -I don't know, but I'll continue looking into it. I wish school hadn't just ended, because then I could "tap into" their large legal databases. -So, I hope some of that made sense, and/or helped in your research. Wait, what? Drinking bleach cures stomach cramps, everyone knows that....
MarkusTay63 05-15-08, 06:17 PM	Uhm, no. In my professional life, I study intelligence and intelligent behavior. There has never been a scientific study "proving" anything of the kind, nor even suggesting anything of the kind.NO The study was done (and I read about it in the late 70's, early 80's) with dogs, and dogs of mixed breed were noticebly MUCH smarter then those of pure breeds. The study concluded the a more diversified gene pool gives you a higher percentage chance for greater intelligenc e to occur. I have also read several stories (Sci-Fi really) that posotulated that human race is currently 'breeding for stupidity'. The basis for that - Intelligent, well-to-do-famlies have on the average only 2.5 children, while low-income families - people often not very well-educated and often referred to as 'blue collar' - have large families. So the 'unwashed masses' are vastly out-breeding the upper class, and it is only a matter of time before the human race diverges down two seperate paths (similar to what happened in The Time Machine, except the upper class won't be eating the 'stupids'). :P Of course those are just stories, written as 'entertainment', but I also happen to think that 'breaking point' is a hell of a lot closer then any of us think... I hope I'm wrong.
Therise 05-15-08, 06:32 PM	NO The study was done (and I read about it in the late 70's, early 80's) with dogs, and dogs of mixed breed were noticebly MUCH smarter then those of pure breeds. The study concluded the a more diversified gene pool gives you a higher percentage chance for greater intelligenc e to occur. Because of the tests involved, there is no such thing as an IQ score for an animal. One cannot speak of intelligence in humans (which is highly verbal-dependent) and intelligent behavior in animals (which isn't verbal) without making a strong distinction. They are simply not the same. It's possible that the study spoke to an animal's ability to learn simple commands or procedural tasks, but that's a -far- cry from human intelligence as it's statistically defined per IQ tests. Sorry. I have also read several stories (Sci-Fi really) that posotulated that human race is currently 'breeding for stupidity'. The basis for that - Intelligent, well-to-do-famlies have on the average only 2.5 children, while low-income families - people often not very well-educated and often referred to as 'blue collar' - have large families. So the 'unwashed masses' are vastly out-breeding the upper class, and it is only a matter of time before the human race diverges down two seperate paths (similar to what happened in The Time Machine, except the upper class won't be eating the 'stupids'). :P Of course those are just stories, written as 'entertainment', but I also happen to think that 'breaking point' is a hell of a lot closer then any of us think... I hope I'm wrong. Sci Fi theories are interesting, I suppose, but in reality IQ scores have been on the rise (slowly) by about 3 points average per decade. See the Flynn Effect (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/FLYNNEFF.html), if interested.
Khaelieth 05-15-08, 06:37 PM	Also, if you breed a Dalmatian with a German Shepherd (Schaefer sounds far cooler) you will get a dog far smarter than a Dalmation. i mean, a Dalmation doesn't know the difference between a stick and a ball. Useless dogs!
Lord Karsus 05-15-08, 08:48 PM	Wait, what? Drinking bleach cures stomach cramps, everyone knows that.... -Did you really have to quote all of that? :P I have also read several stories (Sci-Fi really) that posotulated that human race is currently 'breeding for stupidity'. The basis for that - Intelligent, well-to-do-famlies have on the average only 2.5 children, while low-income families - people often not very well-educated and often referred to as 'blue collar' - have large families. So the 'unwashed masses' are vastly out-breeding the upper class, and it is only a matter of time before the human race diverges down two seperate paths (similar to what happened in The Time Machine, except the upper class won't be eating the 'stupids'). :P -MT, you're an adult, and you're fairly smart. Do you not realize/know why poorer families oftentimes have more children? There are about three or four anthropological reasons I can give you, but none of them involve what you are hypothesizing there. One, in fact, is because of the exact opposite of what you are alluding to.
MarkusTay63 05-15-08, 09:04 PM	I know they aren't doing it on purpose - they're too stupid for that. :P Its like this, dumb people have tons of kids, BECAUSE they are dumb. Raisinga child cost a ton of money, and smart people don't want to to have to work three jobs just to make ends meet - they make intelligent decisions, and know enough to use methods that will not creat unwanted numbers of dependents. We are losing our 'middle class' - people are ethier going to be part of the Elite, or one of the dredges, and that is what I am worried about. Didn't you yourself just say in this or another thread how people yopu were going to COLLEGE with didn't know where the Middle-East was? I was blessed to have wroked for very intelligfent people when I owned my Home Improvement company, so I was able to relate to my customers as equals, and they to me. I did get pretty good with spanish though. ;) Anyhow, wealthy customers living in 'Rich Neighborhoods' NEVER had more then three kids, and people who worked with me NEVER LESS. None of this is being done with any sort of 'master plan' - it's just happening on its own. So what happens when 99% of the population realizes that the other 1% has 99% of the money and benefits? So far, there hasn't been a large enough crisis to tip the Apple cart, but historically speaking, its only a matter of time. And then the meek-minded shall inherit the Earth. Perhaps IQ is going up as you say Therise, but I'm not seeing it. If people are indeed become 'more intelligent', they certainly aren't using their new found smarts for anything else besides Internet searches and text messaging. I really think kids today know far less then they did when I went to school. Hell, the few teachers I know personally are a bunch of morons. :bored: Doomed I tell you... we're all doomed. :raincloud Thank God Global Warming will wipe as all out in four years and we won't have to worry about it any longer. :cool:
Therise 05-15-08, 09:27 PM	MT, you're an adult, and you're fairly smart. Do you not realize/know why poorer families oftentimes have more children? (...) Ooh, ooh, ooh! I know! I know! :D Because Every Sperm is Sacred (http://youtube.com/watch?v=s-DxovgI7NI), that's why! (the children's choir is the best part, the little girl: "God shall make them pay for..." LOL)
Lord Karsus 05-15-08, 09:35 PM	Its like this, dumb people have tons of kids, BECAUSE they are dumb. Raisinga child cost a ton of money, and smart people don't want to to have to work three jobs just to make ends meet - they make intelligent decisions, and know enough to use methods that will not creat unwanted numbers of dependents. We are losing our 'middle class' - people are ethier going to be part of the Elite, or one of the dredges, and that is what I am worried about. -Correct, that more or less encompasses the various reasons, saving me the bother of listing them. ;) Didn't you yourself just say in this or another thread how people yopu were going to COLLEGE with didn't know where the Middle-East was? -High school, not college. Though, it's not like the people in college are much better. In fact, I think I can guarantee that the majority of people in my Freshman AP European History class (ie, 13-14-15 year olds) were probably smarter than a decent sized population of the student body in my college. During the 5 minutes before a test in a History class, I remember someone whispering to someone else, "Was Jew a country?" So...Yeah... So what happens when 99% of the population realizes that the other 1% has 99% of the money and benefits? So far, there hasn't been a large enough crisis to tip the Apple cart, but historically speaking, its only a matter of time. And then the meek-minded shall inherit the Earth. -With that 99% of the wealth, however, that 1% can hire part of that 99% of the population to protect them from said theoretical angry masses. Perhaps IQ is going up as you say Therise, but I'm not seeing it. If people are indeed become 'more intelligent', they certainly aren't using their new found smarts for anything else besides Internet searches and text messaging. I really think kids today know far less then they did when I went to school. Hell, the few teachers I know personally are a bunch of morons. :bored: -People are bound, as a whole, to grow more intelligent simply by virtue of technology, not less intelligent. Sure, outdoorsy survival skills might being commonly know might go the way of the past, but we live in civilized times. My Stepfather- you might like him, actually, maybe- I remember, once was warning me to leave a second jacket in my car during the winter, so that if my car ever broke down, I wouldn't freeze to death. My response? "We're not in friggin' Wyoming, here." Thank God Global Warming will wipe as all out in four years and we won't have to worry about it any longer. :cool: -Really? Well, I'm not even going to ask. -That said, this thread has covered an amazing spectrum of social, economic and mercantile topics, and has offered a wide array of commentary on all issues. :)
Lord Karsus 05-15-08, 09:40 PM	Ooh, ooh, ooh! I know! I know! :D Because Every Sperm is Sacred (http://youtube.com/watch?v=s-DxovgI7NI), that's why! (the children's choir is the best part, the little girl: "God shall make them pay for..." LOL) :rofl: -Eh, close enough.
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 12:08 AM	Your stepfather is a very wise man. I always have a complete second set of clothes in my vehicles (including an old pair of Sneakers), along with a blanket and first aid kit. Not to mention the normal road flares and jumpercables. And a razor... never forget to keep an extra razor in the glove... sometimes you forget to shave, and it is always when it matters most. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-16-08, 01:02 AM	Your stepfather is a very wise man. -No he's not. He's a ****in' *******.
Stigger 05-16-08, 02:50 AM	Interestingly, I've had several long conversations about the dregs outbreeding the upper end of the gene pool. Go read Freakonomics and it should explain why that isn't the case. At least I think it was Freakonomics... I read too many damned books.
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 06:17 AM	Don't mind global warming, i've got several boats and a fair few fishing rods! i'm sorted! But poor people aren't necessarily stupid, MT. Think that's a horrid notion; they've not got an education so they've hardly received any stimulus of the intellect. Was a case where a woman had been raised by dogs (in a cellar, was a cruel imprisonment thingy) and she said when she came back into society, she hadn't really had a thought in her life. She'd received no stimulus, so obviously she wasn't "smart".
capnvan 05-16-08, 08:35 AM	[QUOTE=MarkusTay63;15867075]similar to what happened in The Time Machine, except the upper class won't be eating the 'stupids'. Since I already do, does that make me ahead of my time? :burp:
Alediran 05-16-08, 08:39 AM	Interestingly, I've had several long conversations about the dregs outbreeding the upper end of the gene pool. Go read Freakonomics and it should explain why that isn't the case. At least I think it was Freakonomics... I read too many damned books. Because they die easier. In Argentina we have the same problem, only that 25% of the population is currently in the poverty range. The Flynn effect could explain why ADDH is becoming more and more common each year. If humanity's IQ is getting bigger then at some point more and more people are going to have High IQs that enter the range where ADDH is almost impossible not to have. Imagine two centuries from here (if we get that far). Most of human population would have ADDH.
Therise 05-16-08, 10:39 AM	The Flynn effect could explain why ADDH is becoming more and more common each year. If humanity's IQ is getting bigger then at some point more and more people are going to have High IQs that enter the range where ADDH is almost impossible not to have. Imagine two centuries from here (if we get that far). Most of human population would have ADDH. So far as I'm aware from reading the literature, ADHD and IQ are not intimately linked as a positive correlation but as a negative correlation. Speaking very generally, uncontrolled (i.e., without medication) ADHD will interfere with performance on an IQ test. Increased hyperactivity, impulsivity, and inattention will all lead to errors, and a decrease in performance scores. Once kids with ADHD are appropriately medicated to control the form of ADHD that they have, their performance scores improve, sometimes dramatically (and the negative correlation washes out).
Alediran 05-16-08, 10:52 AM	So far as I'm aware from reading the literature, ADHD and IQ are not intimately linked as a positive correlation but as a negative correlation. Speaking very generally, uncontrolled (i.e., without medication) ADHD will interfere with performance on an IQ test. Increased hyperactivity, impulsivity, and inattention will all lead to errors, and a decrease in performance scores. Once kids with ADHD are appropriately medicated to control the form of ADHD that they have, their performance scores improve, sometimes dramatically (and the negative correlation washes out). What I was refering to was that most people with ADHD also have high IQs. I've read somewhere that having an IQ over 140 (I don't remember exactly if it was 140 or more) almost always means the person is also an ADHD.
Therise 05-16-08, 11:03 AM	What I was refering to was that most people with ADHD also have high IQs. I've read somewhere that having an IQ over 140 (I don't remember exactly if it was 140 or more) almost always means the person is also an ADHD. Well, 140 is a pretty high IQ, being almost 3 standard deviations above the mean. Most people with ADHD don't have IQs that high (even when appropriately medicated), and we actually have to control for really high IQs when testing for ADHD. Sometimes high IQ can mask the diagnosis of ADHD, so psychologists are usually quite careful when IQs are in the very high range. That said, in my training, we do watch for other specific things when people have really high IQs, but other than the above, ADHD doesn't particularly stand out. As an example, sometimes Asperger's is paired with very high IQ (but not always).
Lord Karsus 05-16-08, 12:09 PM	The Flynn effect could explain why ADDH is becoming more and more common each year. -Misdiagnosis', my friend. Misdiagnosis' and overdiagnosis'...
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 12:20 PM	As a person who has suffered from chronic ADHD all his life, and have at least three children with it (the fourth is still young, but most likely will have it), I can most certainly attest to the fact that High IQ id DIRECTLY related to ADHD. Mine's 156... no lie.. and I'm a construction worker... :bored: An inability to focus isn't a sign of being 'stupid', but rather the inability to stay focused on any one subject for more then a few moments. I remember hearing as child that "Einstein failed math". I don't know if that's true or not, but the premise was that he was always staring out the window, dreaming of 'bigger things'. I know for a fact that he bought dozens of the same exact suit, because he didn't want to waste time having to decide what to wear each day. If you have that much trouble making up your mind, thats a sure sign old Albert had some pretty severe ADD. My oldest son has it as bad as me. He scored the highest in our school district on the State Examines one year, and third highest EVER in the district. He droped out of HS two months before he would have graduated, because he "he was bored" with it. :( People with ADHD are able to multi-task on an incredible level, but have SEVERE problems finishing anything. I sometimes think that Autism is really just ADD taken to its extreme - the mind is moving along so rapidly that the world becomes a blur to them - and thats why we get 'savants'. I used to work for the same guy my father did, and one day I was at the bosses house and his grandson walked in. I said hello to the boy, and he said hello back. I told him my name, and he told me his, and then iIasked if he was having fun visiting... he just smiled and ran off into the other room. When I turned around, my father, boss, the boss's wife, and the boss's son (the boy's father) were staring at me like I grew an extra head. Their jaws literally were on the floor. I asked what was wrong, and the wife said "he NEVER answers anybody". The boss then told me his Grandson had severe Autism, and almost never responded to outside stimuli. They asked me to try it again, but I couldn't even get the boy to look at me. I think, for a brief moment, the child recognized a 'kindred spitrit'. :) People with really bad ADHD have a great deal of trouble holding down jobs, or saving money, beause their impulses are almost in total control of them, and it is a constant struggle for me to stay on task long enough to finish even the simplest things. However, I have never encountered a subject too 'deep' for me to handle, and I can usually make intuitive leaps faster then anyone I know (ADHD's multi-tasking facet allows a person to synergize an astounding array of normally unconnected pieces of infornmation). So, while I am comforted by the fact I know I'm smart, I can never hope to achieve any sort fame or financial success, whereas an ambitous person with only an average IQ can become anything they want in this country. Thats why I feel ADHD is both a blessing and a curse all rolled into one.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-16-08, 12:31 PM	Surely, glad to. :) Please feel free to stop me if I get too tangential, though. I do that fairly often. :) That's fine, we all go off on a tangent sometimes.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-16-08, 12:33 PM	--So, I hope some of that made sense, and/or helped in your research. It did, thank you very much.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-16-08, 12:36 PM	I have also read several stories (Sci-Fi really) that posotulated that human race is currently 'breeding for stupidity'. The basis for that - Intelligent, well-to-do-famlies have on the average only 2.5 children, while low-income families - people often not very well-educated and often referred to as 'blue collar' - have large families. So the 'unwashed masses' are vastly out-breeding the upper class, and it is only a matter of time before the human race diverges down two seperate paths (similar to what happened in The Time Machine, except the upper class won't be eating the 'stupids'). :P That just sounds like pure, undiluted class-bias to me, and definitely not something that should be taken seriously from a scientific point of view.
Alediran 05-16-08, 12:36 PM	My IQ was like 142 when I made the test last october during a job interview (four hours of psychological tests, including an IQ test) Yep, I feel the same. At this moment I'm DMing (one of the few things I've found I can keep doing without becoming bored, since DMing in itself has so much different things to do) two FR campaigns, started yesterday to play an IRC-based game set in V:tR. While I was doing that I was rebuilding a DB that I lost during my last Windows reinstalation that is going to be used on a web-site. At work I'm usually reading at least one RPG sourcebook while I chat, read boards/new sites and do my work and listening to music (without music I found that I can't even concentrate in something for more than a minute). My boss doesn't likes my multi-tasking very much (for obvious reasons :P) but doesn't fires me because a problem that would take somebody else 4 hours to resolve I do it in five minutes and I do more work (when there is much to do) in half-day than 2 non-ADHD programmers put together. But no matter what I do I can't even concentrate for the boring parts of things I love (I'm an excellent improviser DM, but my lack of even the most basic preparation sometimes gets me in tight spots during game time. I'm close to finish CotSQ and I haven't even started to plan the next adventure). One of my players who is a psychology student promised me to teach me some concentration excercises (still waiting for them :P) to see if I can improve that. I can't even imagine what could I do if I could concentrate on something for a long time.
Lord Karsus 05-16-08, 12:39 PM	-I've never taken an IQ test before. That said, I don't think I'd ever want to. No matter what the score, I think I'd disappoint myself...
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 01:02 PM	Odd how everyone's iq's over 140...;p
Therise 05-16-08, 01:07 PM	Just to clarify several points - As a person who has suffered from chronic ADHD all his life, and have at least three children with it (the fourth is still young, but most likely will have it), I can most certainly attest to the fact that High IQ id DIRECTLY related to ADHD. While that may indeed be the case for you, I guarantee that this is statistically not the case for the general population. It is certainly accurate to say that some people with ADHD have high IQ, but this isn't the case for the ADHD population generally. Now, it is entirely possible that your children also have very high IQs -and- ADHD, but from a scientific perspective there is no evidence for a strong positive correlation between the two - nor a causal link. I don't really want to take this into a personal arena, but given that you're talking about personal experiences it will be difficult not to (or at least not seem to be taken that way). As I respond to the other things you've said below, please bear in mind that this is -not- a personal attack, even if it might seem to be. I'm interested in clearing up some possible misperceptions about the science of ADHD, and what we know. Mine's 156... no s__t... and I'm a construction worker... :bored: That's an -extremely- high IQ score, which would put you at not merely a "gifted" level but at what IQ tests typically call "genius" level. My first instinct would be to question where and how you obtained this score, and if the test in question was one that scientists and practitioners generally use. Again, I'm not questioning this because you're a construction worker, but only because a score of 156 IQ would indicate a performance better than 99.9% of the population. There are a lot of tests out there that purport to test IQ, but there are really only a few (with normative data) that are used professionally for diagnosis and assessment. There are many people who have high IQs that choose non-academic careers, so again, this isn't about that. An inability to focus isn't a sign of being 'stupid', but rather the inability to stay focused on any one subject for more then a few moments. I never said that it was a sign of being stupid. However, there are several different clinical presentations of ADHD, not necessarily just focus problems: - Impulsive/Hyperactive Type - Inattentive Type - Mixed Impulsivity and Inattention I remember hearing as child that "Einstein failed math". I don't know if that's true or not, but the premise was that he was always staring out the window, dreaming of 'bigger things'. I know for a fact that he bought dozens of the same exact suit, because he didn't want to waste time having to decide what to wear each day. If you have that much trouble making up your mind, thats a sure sign old Albert had some pretty severe ADD. Not necessarily. It is certainly a major symptom of ADHD, but the above things do not suffice for a definitive diagnosis of ADHD. My oldest son has it as bad as me. He scored the highest in our school district on the State Examines one year, and third highest EVER in the district. He droped out of HS two months before he would have graduated, because he "he was bored" with it. :( Sorry to say this, but that's not just ADHD. It would seem to me that there's something else going on there, although a public D&D board isn't perhaps the best place to discuss something personal. If you'd like to talk on a more personal level, I'd be glad to chat privately and perhaps suggest some referrals in your area. People with ADHD are able to multi-task on an incredible level, but have SEVERE problems finishing anything. I sometimes think that Autism is really just ADD taken to its extreme - the mind is moving along so rapidly that the world becomes a blur to them - and thats why we get 'savants'. Actually, being able to "multitask" and yet not finish anything isn't a good description of multitasking. But this difficulty, it is a symptom of ADHD. Also, Autism isn't ADHD. Having someone that's a savant, now that can be related to high-functioning autism, but ADHD is a different thing entirely. People with really bad ADHD have a great deal of trouble holding down jobs, or saving money, beause their impulses are almost in total control of them, (...) Again, this may be getting too personal, but it sounds like your ADHD may not be well controlled. If you have the diagnosis, did they not follow through with recommendations for medication and behavioral treatment? Feel free to change this to private messaging, by the way. So, while I am comforted by the fact I know I'm smart, I can never hope to achieve any sort fame or financial success, whereas an ambitous person with only an average IQ can become anything they want in this country. Thats why I feel ADHD is both a blessing and a curse all rolled into one. It is absolutely -not- the case that people with ADHD will "never be able to achieve fame or financial success". With well-controlled ADHD, it is -VERY- possible to achieve such things if that's what you'd really like to do. Again, I'd be glad to take this private and suggest referrals for a good diagnostician in your local area.
Alediran 05-16-08, 01:08 PM	Odd how everyone's iq's over 140...;p I don't know if everyone's, but it's logical since RPGs don't usually attract people with low-to-mid IQs. My gaming group consists of: two programmers (one close to graduating as system engineer, not me :P), a pshychological studen, an english teacher and almost finishing Image and Sound at College and a College-Graduated Nurse (in the most prestigious argentinian college).
Stigger 05-16-08, 01:52 PM	I got tested years ago in the 160's range, but I seriously doubt the validity of the test, since they shrink who gave it to me was something of a quack. Still, it was a lovely ego boost. :D
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 02:50 PM	I'm old, as in "WoW! They landed on the Moon!" old. That being said, I was tested in Elementary school, for several years, starting in 1970. The school psychologist and several of my teachers had a meeting with my parents and asked that I be placed in a school for 'gifted children'. Back then that meant private school, and my parents simply could not afford it. I have no idea how accurate the tests were back then compared to today's, but I know I never got a grade below 95, except in Gym, and I NEVER studied or did Homework... EVER. In HS, I took classe during my free periods AND lunch because I hated doing nothing, and graduated Early - I was taking classes at Stoneybrook University at 16 (over the summer). I then got my Social Sciences diploma (Associates) from a community college at 18... and never did anything with any of that after. I was supposed to be a special Education teacher, but after teaching 1st grade for six months (a placement by me college - the work/study program they called it back then), I found most teachers only became teachers because they weren't good enough to be what they really wanted (Artists, musicians, writers, etc...), so I lost interest. I haven't been tested since then, but I was a bit of a 'partier' in the 80's, and I'm pretty sure I shaved about 10-20 points off back then. In fact, I felt the most 'normal' back then, when I was stoned. Unfortunetly, they didn't have a diagnosis for ADD when I was a kid, it was unheard of, so they just labeled me 'Hyper' and that was that. So except for my period of 'self-medication', I have never been on any drugs for it. My kids were all put on drugs, but the side-effects were terrible (bizzare mood-swings), so I took them off and let them live with it, as I have done. I don't believe in medication - I think in most cases it does more harm then good... but thats another story. I also think most 'scientific medical studies' are a crock of crud. A good example - I remember seeing one on the news one night that stated "Medical Researchers at <some University> have conducted a study linking income to health. According to researchers, children of lower-income families have poorer nutrition on the average then children of high-income families." Well D-UH! I wonder how many millions it took them to figure out that little 'gem'. So when you say "science has proven this, or that", I have to laugh, because most scientists I hear about sound like they'd have trouble tying their own shoes, and are good for little else besides the one and only thing they are trained in. Brilliant Men, who can't see past the end of their noses. I have come to my own conclusions about many things, and I trust my own gut over any study ever done - sorry. I don't think I'm a 'failure' because of my ADHD, because I ran a pretty successful Home Improvement Company for fifteen years. The way I stayed 'sane' was by NOT specializing, as so many other contractors do, and I worked on everything from basements to Roofs, and everything in-between (including Landscaping). I found my niche - my customers came to rely on me for everything, and I did something different nearly every single day (I can't work at one locale for more then a couple of weeks). Now I'm retired, because of Health reasons (Chronic Asthma on top of everything else), so I'm a regular on a dozen websites just to keep me busy, otherwise I'd go freakin' nuts. If there's one thing I've learned in all my years, there's a damn good reason why Int and Wis are two seperate attributes in D&D - I'd give a third of my IQ for just a pound of 'horse sense' on most days. :( In D&D, my Wis would probably be around a 3, if that. It takes an enormous amount of willpower just to control my impulses, and for me to get through something that any normal person can do without thinking. Thats why I think common sense is far more important then how smart you are.
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 03:04 PM	"WoW! it's still spelled "wow," no matter what Blizzard might tell you;p
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 03:23 PM	As a die-hard Warcraft player, it's just force-of-habit spelling it that way. :embarrass
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 03:24 PM	Awww... a carebear!;p
Alediran 05-16-08, 03:26 PM	MT, at least for the definition of common sense I know you don't lack common sense. What you seem to lack is focus and constancy, just like I do.
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 03:37 PM	Nahhh, I've made some pretty stupid decisions in my day, and since I don't feel I'm 'stupid', then it must have just been 'poor judgement', which again, comes down to common sense. Unfortunetly, even though I can usually synthesize the correct answer to any conundrum, I rarely listen to myself. You have no idea how many times I've told myself "don't do this", and I kept moving in that direction even though I knew I was acting irrational. Like being on the way to pay my Mortgage, and deciding to buy a new flatscreen TV instead. :bored: As bad as my wife may have been, she put up with A LOT. :embarrass
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 03:38 PM	Like being on the way to pay my Mortgage, and deciding to by a new flatscreen TV instead. :bored: Nono, that's manlyness! Did you get an Xbox 360 to go with it?
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 03:41 PM	No... I got that for my son. :D You see, I had four boys (my one, true blessing), and every Christmas and Birthday, I get to buy them stuff I want and look like a great Dad. :P
Therise 05-16-08, 04:50 PM	I'd like to reply to a few things, again just for clarification. I'm still trying my best to keep this out of the personal arena, so please don't take offense at any of this. (...) I have no idea how accurate the tests were back then compared to today's, As with all things in medicine, a -lot- better. Especially since you're saying that you were tested before they knew much about ADHD. That is a fair amount of time. ;) (...) My kids were all put on drugs, but the side-effects were terrible (bizzare mood-swings), so I took them off and let them live with it, as I have done. I don't believe in medication - I think in most cases it does more harm then good... but thats another story. I'd like to point out a couple of things here, take them for what they're worth. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that medications are the best way, or even the only way, to treat ADHD, but there are some very important things to consider. Of course in the final analysis, whether or not to do medication is always going to be the choice of the patient. However, because there are often very different presentations for ADHD (it is a disorder with a continuum, and two ADHD kids can be -very- different), the medications for ADHD are also not the same from one child/person to another. For one child with ADHD, a stimulant may be strongly suggested. For another child (with the same diagnosis of ADHD), a stimulant may be completely inadvisable. Back in the 60s when -all- kids were getting stimulants for ADHD, some of them probably had -bad- reactions. And some kids were getting the medication who didn't have the disorder (still true today). For parents who stuck with their doctors, though, and tried to find other solutions, their tenacity helped scientists better understand the complex nature of the disorder and find the -much- better (and rather diverse) treatments of 2008. That said, it's completely understandable that grandparents and parents who remember a horrible medication experience will lose faith in their doctors, in science, and perhaps in the entire medical system. It is also the case that some physicians (generally, older pediatricians and practitioners) still rely on ancient diagnostic tools today, almost 50 years later. Some doctors do not remain in touch with current practice and therapeutic techniques, and that's why it's always important to get second (and third) opinions. The state of the art in testing for ADHD today is about a 4-6 hour set of tests, including a good history and medical review with follow-up (with the follow-up being the MOST important part); but there are still doctors today who still diagnose ADHD with a 5-min questionnaire, write a script for meds, and think they're doing everyone a favor. That, perhaps, is one of the worst things about the medical / psychology profession generally: we do a really lousy job getting new practice information out to the general public. We're awful at PR, and some older doctors aren't even all that terrific with bedside manner. For the past 30 years, it's been the large pharmacy corporations that bombard the public with "take this pill or that", rather than the medical profession stepping up to educate the general public. And that's a shame, it's embarrassing as a professional in the field. I also think most 'scientific medical studies' are a crock of s__t. (...) So when you say "science has proven this, or that", I have to laugh, because most scientists I hear about sound like they'd have trouble tying their own shoes, and are good for little else besides the one and only thing they are trained in. (...) I haven't yet said that science has "proven" anything, although I would still count science and empirical evidence as far better than common sense wisdom. Science done appropriately is something that will lead you the right way 90-95% of the time. It's not perfect, because humans often get in the way of empirical evidence with these pesky things called biased conclusions, or we forget about variables that should be obvious, or our technology isn't sufficiently advanced to adequately investigate a theory. If anything, our educational system hasn't done a terrific job of educating the general public about science, either, about what one can and cannot do with it, what one can say with science, and what one can't. Science is about theories, and finding empirical evidence for -support- of said theories. "Proof" is for mathematics, where things can (generally) be black and white. Not so with medicine. In medicine, the confluence of variables (many of which can't be measured or controlled for) for a single individual will limit what one can say about "proof", but it works well most of the time for finding support. Strong support is, of course, much better, but in the push to publish or perish, some studies will be published and presented to the media when the support is limited. Even with healing something as common as a broken arm, many patients will have different rates of healing when given the same medications; and some patients may need to be removed from the "painkiller of choice" or even have their casts re-done in different materials because of adverse medical reactions. The same can be said of ADHD, that numerous variables are involved that make treatment tricky. With a broken arm, treatment plans can be simple and straightforward because a broken bone is pretty similar for most people; with ADHD, we have to consider it as a much more complex disorder with sometimes really varied treatment. Finding a good doctor for a broken arm is relatively easy. Finding a good doctor up to speed on all the new information about ADHD is not so easy. Medicine is, because we are still learning and improving every day and not everything is perfect, as much a science as it is an art. I'd just try to steer away from medical practitioners that make it more about the "art" (or those that are far too heavy on preferring "common clinical wisdom") than they make it about science. Anyway, just trying to be helpful. :)
SmartPaladin 05-16-08, 04:50 PM	No... I got that for my son. :D You see, I had four boys (my one, true blessing), and every Christmas and Birthday, I get to buy them stuff I want and look like a great Dad. :P ROFLMFAO! Remember that other thread where I wanted to hit you? I take it back now. You are now the Awesome. :ayyyy!:
Mula 05-16-08, 04:52 PM	My IQ is 80. But that's why I like the new rules.
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 05:30 PM	I also think most 'scientific medical studies' are a crock of s__t. A good example - I remember seeing one on the news one night that stated "Medical Researchers at <some University> have conducted a study linking income to health. According to researchers, children of lower-income families have poorer nutrition on the average then children of high-income families." Well, it's correct. Poorer people eat worse food than rich people, because rich people spend more money on food, more expensive food generally being better. i'm not rich, as i'm a student, but i spend a lot of money on eating healthily, and aside from whooping coughs, i've not been sick once in 8 years. Same with children of divorced parents; on average they don't perform as well as those with married parents. it's statistical evidence, though it will obviously vary from case to case. it doesn't prove any specific case, but it shows a correlation.
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 05:41 PM	@Mula - Dude, you do make me laugh. :rofl: Its definately important to keep our sense of humor here, sometimes. @SmartPaladin - I don't remember ever having a disagreement with you, but then again I've argued with just about everyone here at one time or another (I get a little 'mule headed' at times). @Therise - Spending most of my life 'suffering' from one thing or another (I had to get twenty needles weekly for my allergies alone) has brought me into a great deal of contact with the medical profession, and although I am sure there are a number of people like you who really care, MOST don't - it's just a paycheck. The year I taught 1st grade I spent the second half of that year working in a Hospital Lab as a clerk (being one of the few people who could actually work a computer in 1981), and part of my job was adding the lab slips to the charts on the floors. Lets just say that if your name was John Smith, you were as good as dead. :rolleyes: I spent more time correcting other people's stupid mistakes then doing my own work. My two sisters are both nurses, one private duty, the other works in a state hospital. My mother has been an administrator at the Northport VA Hospital for over twenty years. I know a wee bit about some stuff. :smirk: None of us trust hospitals, and we would have to be on our deathbeds to sign into one. You get a unique perspective when you see just how many careless mistakes are made with people's lives on a daily basis. :( As far as drugs go... guess what? I worked for a restaurant that did ALL the catering for a major drug company (more then one, actually). I got to deliver food to many of those 'free luncheons' that drug company reps host for doctors. Doctor's prescribe drugs based on what company gives them the most 'freebies', not what drugs are actually good for their patients. And yes, I COULD write a book. :D I also used to get free samples from all the reps (the only ones I used were the Asthma drugs, although I WAS tempted by the Viagra :P ). I was able to get prescriptions for any of those, so it was semi-legal for me to take the samples (having a scrip made it a grey area). The reason why I didn't trust most of them was because the list of side-effects were usually a mile long, and some of them were worse then the ailment. It never ceases to amaze me how many drugs actually make you sicker, requiring you take even more meds... thats a long, dark spiral I see many elderly and Cancer patients go down,and you just keep needing stronger and stronger medications until finally nothing works. We can also blame the drug companies for accidentally creating 'super viruses' - I do a lot of reading, and you know what I'm talking about. Things like Influenza mutate constantly to become immune to the antibiotics. You see, the more you know, the less you trust everything and everyone, until you don't even feel like walking outside anymore... although I'm not quite there yet. I'll leave that to the paranoids and Obssesive Compulsives. ;)
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 05:44 PM	Well, it's correct.You missed my point. That was just common sense, but some Gov't muckity-muck decided it was worth awarding some insane amount of money to a bunch of University Researchers to prove something anyone with a brain in their head could figure out. Its like spending money to see if the sun is really hot. :bored:
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 05:47 PM	You missed my point. That was just common sense, but some Gov't muckity-muck decided it was worth awarding some insane amount of money to a bunch of University Researchers to prove something anyone with a brain in their head could figure out. Its like spending money to see if the sun is really hot. :bored: Ah, i see. But remember you're not allowed to publicly (sp?) say anything on the matter unless you can back it up with evidence. Some things aren't clear to everyone either.
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 05:58 PM	Well, if they would just ask me, or anyone else with some smarts and a lot of worldy experience, we could save the scientific community a fortune. I see silly 'studies' much worse then that on a daily basis almost every night (one of the resons I hate watching the news anymore) - thats just the one that sprang to mind. For instance, recently the medical community has decided that drinking a small amount of alchohal every day may actually be good for you. Now, Picnoginol and anti-oxidents aside, I've known that and have been saying that for more then twenty years. You see, I have several Alcohalics in my family, and so does my wife (I guess everyone does), and I can honestly tell you I have never see any of them even get a case of the sniffles. You put alchohal on cuts, so of course its going to kill germs on the INSIDE of your body as well! And it took them years of study and millions to come up with that. I really do believe that the guys who do all that 'University Research' just try to come up with stuff to get the Gov't grants. Like we all need to know what causes baldness in rats... Like THAT may just save the world. :rolleyes:
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 06:10 PM	Well, if they would just ask me, or anyone else with some smarts and a lot of worldy experience, we could save the scientific community a fortune. I see silly 'studies' much worse then that on a daily basis almost every night (one of the resons I hate watching the news anymore) - thats just the one that sprang to mind. For instance, recently the medical community has decided that drinking a small amount of alchohal every day may actually be good for you. Now, Picnoginol and anti-oxidents aside, I've known that and have been saying that for more then twenty years. You see, I have several Alcohalics in my family, and so does my wife (I guess everyone does), and I can honestly tell you I have never see any of them even get a case of the sniffles. You put alchohal on cuts, so of course its going to kill germs on the INSIDE of your body as well! And it took them years of study and millions to come up with that. I really do believe that the guys who do all that 'University Research' just try to come up with stuff to get the Gov't grants. Like we all need to know what causes baldness in rats... Like THAT may just save the world. :rolleyes: Spirits kill alcohol in your oesophagus (throat--> stomach), that's it. Alcohol gets absorbed in your stomach, which is before it leaves the pyloric sphincter and passes into the duodenum. Alcohol is good for your heart in SMALL amounts, as it thins your blood, so less strain on your heart. Putting penicillin on infections doesn't help, you need to ingest it. Had quite a few alcoholics in my family, only 2 living, including one that cleaned up. Much like those yoghurts with "healthy" bacteria... Pure bollocks. A yoghurt that helps your bacteria? Well, there's a reason they say their researchers have found it helps. Applying collagen (the elasticity protein in your body, destruction of it causes sagging, wrinkles etc) to your skin doesn't help at all. Which is why a lot of age/moisturising/wrinkle creams had to redo their commercials, because science told them to go home and stop tricking people. A lot of these "silly" studies are taken out of context; now, stand alone a study on poor people's diet compared to rich doesn't make much sense. But when applied to questions as to how to make them eat healthier, it suddenly makes more sense. Edit: And i'm very happy i can write "bollocks";p
Therise 05-16-08, 06:25 PM	(...)For instance, recently the medical community has decided that drinking a small amount of alchohal every day may actually be good for you. Now, Picnoginol and anti-oxidents aside, I've known that and have been saying that for more then twenty years. You see, I have several Alcohalics in my family, and so does my wife (I guess everyone does), and I can honestly tell you I have never see any of them even get a case of the sniffles. You put alchohal on cuts, so of course its going to kill germs on the INSIDE of your body as well! And it took them years of study and millions to come up with that. Okay, why I'm doing this at this point I have no idea - but here we go. Again, it's meant in the spirit of providing correct information... It isn't about the common cold (i.e. sniffles) or germs, but about reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease. Antioxidants are present in some alcohol beverages (like flavinoids in red wine), but they don't really have much of an effect on cardiovascular disease. Depending on the type of alcohol consumed, the health benefits are mild but include small increases in HDL cholesterol (the good cholesterol) or mildly reducing clot formation by decreasing platelet "sticking" (due to resveratrol in some alcohols). That said, diets low in saturated fats, good exercise, and aspirin will provide pretty much the same benefits as noted above for alcohol re: cardiovascular disease - without all the bad things associated with alcohol. So, perhaps some studies may seem "silly", but it's also important to read them correctly and understand their limitations. On that note, I think I'm done with talking about medical stuff here. Cheers!
MarkusTay63 05-16-08, 06:30 PM	Either way, alchohalics don't get sick from regular stuff, they die from things like Car Accidents and Sclorocis (sp?) of the Liver. At least, none of the ones I know ever get sick. The worst one of the bunch - my wife's step-father - had a masive Heart attack several years back, and the doctors said if he didn't quit drinking and smoking he'd be dead in a year. He's worst then ever, and still alive and kicking - so much BTW for Alchohal preventing heart disease. I'm tired of this conversation as well, but thank you for the Intellectual stimulation - you made my day. :) Edit: And i'm very happy i can write "bollocks";pUntil the censors figure out what your talking about. :P Which reminds me, someone reported me today for 'bad language' or some such (I was not told exactly what the offense was), and I was given a STERN warning. So, if I do it again, they will be kicking me off a site that they plan on taking down shortly anyway. I do not plan to migrate to the new boards, so either way I'm gone, so to whoever reported me - http://www.myemoticons.com/emoticon-critic/rude/images/mooning.gif Now back to our regularly scheduled thread... :D Of course it's good to know that 'poor folks' don't eat well, but instead of spending millions to confirm that, how about buying them some decent food? Just think about the idiocy behind these studies - we learn stuff, and do absolutely nothing about it. Another example - take Plastic Surgey, a billion-some odd dollars a year industry... 99% of it uneccessary. How about all the movie stars skip their collagen injections this week and actually send that money to Africa to feed, cloth, and get medical attention for those people. Most of the medical profession revolves around uneccessary drugs and procedures - if they spent 1/10 that money on preventative measures, most people wouldn't be having the problems in the first place. But then, the medical profession isn't exactly in business to make us well, because that would be counter-productive (for them).
Khaelieth 05-16-08, 06:48 PM	Just think about the idiocy behind these studies - we learn stuff, and do absolutely nothing about it. Another example - take Plastic Surgey, a billion-some odd dollars a year industry... 99% of it uneccessary. How about all the movie stars skip their collagen injections this week and actually send that money to Africa to feed, cloth, and get medical attention for those people. Most of the medical profession revolves around uneccessary drugs and procedures - if they spent 1/10 that money on preventative measures, most people wouldn't be having the problems in the first place. But then, the medical profession isn't exactly in business to make us well, because that would be counter-productive (for them). Things are done about the studies, but first and foremost they're used to learn about our own culture. Plastic surgery's not always uneccesary. Got a friend who had his jaw jutting forward and got it moved back, which he got covered by health insurance. What about that French woman that got her face savaged by a dog and received a new face? i know you said 99% is uneccesary, but a few of the cases i've known firsthand weren't. But the rich folk have the money for it; who am i to complain? if they actually think a KK breast size is good, go for it. As for preventative measures; how can we prevent ADHD? Preventing disease isn't as easy as a lot of people think, because people don't always do as well tell them to.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-16-08, 09:15 PM	Another example - take Plastic Surgey, a billion-some odd dollars a year industry... 99% of it uneccessary. How about all the movie stars skip their collagen injections this week and actually send that money to Africa to feed, cloth, and get medical attention for those people. Well, why does anyone spend money on any luxury products/services when they could have donated that money to the poor? What's unnecessary to one person means a lot to someone else. Some people feel happier and more comfortable with themselves after having elective plastic surgery. Regarding movie stars, I'm not one to have excessive sympathy for them, but looking good is essentially part of their job.
MerrikCale 05-16-08, 10:21 PM	Another example - take Plastic Surgey, a billion-some odd dollars a year industry... 99% of it uneccessary. How about all the movie stars skip their collagen injections this week and actually send that money to Africa to feed, cloth, and get medical attention for those people. my buttocks implants were quite necessary thank you very much Most of the medical profession revolves around uneccessary drugs and procedures - if they spent 1/10 that money on preventative measures, most people wouldn't be having the problems in the first place. But then, the medical profession isn't exactly in business to make us well, because that would be counter-productive (for them). Now thats unfair. I know hundreds of doctors and the vast majority are not like that.
MarkusTay63 05-17-08, 12:09 AM	The medical profession, by its very nature, is in business to treat people, not cure them. There is no money in curing people. Unless you find me someone who went to school for eight years (more to specialize) who wasn't interested in the money they were going to make, I find it hard to believe any of them care about anything beyond their next tee-off time. However, to be fair, I would say a good 95% of people in this country DON'T care about their job, whatever it is. When I work on something, I know I put my heart and soul into it. I think at one time, most Americans felt this way. Now, most people just nod their heads like they care and keep one eye on the clock. I shouldn't be singling out Doctors and others in the medical proffession, because there are people who are so much worse - people who don't even bother to pretend they care. Just today, I had a cashier at the supermarket text-messaging WHILE ringing me up! She kept the thing open in front of her, keeping an eye on it, and every few items she'd stop and type in a response. It took all of my self-control not to reach over and grab the thing and wing it across the store. And the sad thing is, the dips___ probably didn't even think she was doing anything wrong. :bored:
Therise 05-17-08, 12:18 AM	The medical profession, by its very nature, is in business to treat people, not cure them. There is no money in curing people. Unless you find me someone who went to school for eight years (more to specialize) who wasn't interested in the money they were going to make, I find it hard to believe any of them care about anything beyond their next tee-off time. However, to be fair, I would say a good 95% of people in this country DON'T care about their job, whatever it is. When I work on something, I know I put my heart and soul into it. I think at one time, most Americans felt this way. So let's see, you simultaneously disrespect not only the entire medical profession, then generalize that disrespect to 95% of the working population, and then place yourself on the lofty 5% of the honorable workers who put their "heart and soul" into their work. Yeah, noble. :rolleyes:
MerrikCale 05-17-08, 12:19 AM	The medical profession, by its very nature, is in business to treat people, not cure them. There is no money in curing people. Unless you find me someone who went to school for eight years (more to specialize) who wasn't interested in the money they were going to make, I find it hard to believe any of them care about anything beyond their next tee-off time. However, to be fair, I would say a good 95% of people in this country DON'T care about their job, whatever it is. When I work on something, I know I put my heart and soul into it. I think at one time, most Americans felt this way. Now, most people just nod their heads like they care and keep one eye on the clock. I shouldn't be singling out Doctors and others in the medical proffession, because there are people who are so much worse - people who don't even bother to pretend they care. Just today, I had a cashier at the supermarket text-messaging WHILE ringing me up! She kept the thing open in front of her, keeping an eye on it, and every few items she'd stop and type in a response. It took all of my self-control not to reach over and grab the thing and wing it across the store. And the sad thing is, the dips___ probably didn't even think she was doing anything wrong. :bored: I have to pretty much disagree with just about everything you said
Lord Karsus 05-17-08, 12:32 AM	-Something about this last page lowered my self-esteem. I don't know...
Shemeska the Marauder 05-17-08, 12:46 AM	Unless you find me someone who went to school for eight years (more to specialize) who wasn't interested in the money they were going to make, I find it hard to believe any of them care about anything beyond their next tee-off time. Went to school for 8 years (undergrad and grad school), and I did so because I really love what I've been doing since then (vaccine development, stem cell research, and currently hepatocyte work and preclinical drug metabolism studies). I could be making a hell of a lot more had I gone to medical school rather than becoming a cell biologist. People do become professionals after long tenures in school for reasons other than $$$.
Stigger 05-17-08, 04:09 AM	Hey! Stop that silly biology stuff and do something important and worthwhile, like getting us more stuff for a revised Panescape setting! :P :D Otherwise, what LK said. You're going a bit far there Markus.
Khaelieth 05-17-08, 06:52 AM	The medical profession, by its very nature, is in business to treat people, not cure them. There is no money in curing people. True, which is why European drug companies focus on vaccines and American ones on drugs. This is actually true, learnt from lectures. One of my sober lectures too! @Shemmy: A fellow Biomedical scientist! Doing Biochemistry and Microbiology undergraduate (2nd year) and worked at a cancer research institute, cell biology department! Highly interesting stuff (but my job, cloning E.coli and checking for specific genes is boooooooring).
MarkusTay63 05-17-08, 10:15 AM	I was speaking about Americans in general, and what Khaelieth said is quite true. Just like our Gov't places the highest tariffs on fuel-efficient cars, it blocks any drugs that might actually cost the medical industry income in the future. And Shemmy, obviously you live outside of the United States (or in a state that's smart enough to disregard the feds). The US Gov't is AGAINST stem cell research. People like GB say its because it's immoral, but the real reason is because THERE ARE CURES to be found there. Good For You - keep fighting the good fight. I never said everyone's a shlep - just most of the ones I met are. There used to be a commercial (public service message actually) on TV in the 70's that said everyone should do their job like they would sign their name to it (like an artist). I thought that was so cool, and took it to heart. Every Deck I built was completely custom, and no two are a like. It was sort of a 'prestige symbol' to have a "Mark Deck" in the neighborhood I did most of my work in. I looked at it like I was creating art, not doing my job. I just wish more people felt that way about what they do. When I worked for Home Depot a few years back (part time), their would be lists left each morning of things that needed to get done in the dept. The other guys I worked with would say that they should "really try to get one or two done" (even though the lists usually had over ten items on it). Most of the time they ignored the list, but they felt VERY proud of themselves if they got at least two things done (in an 8 hour shift). One day I got the entire list done, just to prove a point - the guys in my Dept were annoyed. The next morning my ASM called me over - I thought I was going to get a 'merit badge' (they really have such things - you turn in 5 and they give you a hundred bucks). Instead, the ASM told me the guys in my Dept said I was ignoring the customer... and told me I really needed to take care of the customers more. :uh-huh: So making sure my Dept. was neat and clean, and having every shelf stocked and clearly marked, and making sure to re-order stuff that was running low is NOT helping the customers? Thats when I realized - you're next supposed to excel, you're just supossed to "do your job". Its very depressing to me to know that most people here have lost their 'American Pride'. When I was younger, I promised myself I would NEVER become one of those 'crotchity' old people. Now I understand why they are that way. :(
Khaelieth 05-17-08, 10:25 AM	I was speaking about Americans in general, and what Khaelieth said is quite true. Just like our Gov't places the highest tariffs on fuel-efficient cars, it blocks any drugs that might actually cost the medical industry income in the future. And Shemmy, obviously you live outside of the United States (or in a state that's smart enough to disregard the feds). The US Gov't is AGAINST stem cell research. People like GB say its because it's immoral, but the real resons is because THERE ARE CURES to be found there. Good For You - keep fighting the good fight. I never said everyone's a shlep - just most of the ones I met are. Thats when I realized - you're next supposed to excel, you're just supossed to "do your job". Its very depressing to me to know that most people here have lost their 'American Pride'. Stem cell research is a debated because you've got people that don't know what it's about (politicians and law people, don't trust either) making the laws. i just don't see the problem in research on aborted foetuses. They're deid anyway! My neighbour (and close friend of the family) was sorta like you, MT. She excelled at her job (a doctor, nurse or something.) and she excelled at it. She was often critised for being a bit of a know-it-all (not a bad thing tbh) and she often corrected other doctors' medications (some which were obviously wrong). After a wee while, with some extra stuff, like finding out she can't have children, made her attempt suicide by jumping out of a building. She just landed in the snow and caught pneumonia. So you get that everywhere, MT, not just the States=)
MarkusTay63 05-17-08, 10:36 AM	Great. So that's where I'm headed? A snow bank and pneumonia? Bummer. But yeah, I have met a couple of them, but they are far and few betwen. My sister is like that - She is a Head Nurse (no wisecracks) at a major hospital, and she is constantly correcting Doctors perscriptions. One doctor even tried to get her fired because she contradicted him so much. My sister, being an incredibly smart woman, had been keeping lists of EVERYTHING everyone else did wrong, and when the affair was brought before a revue board, she was able to prove that the doctor in question would have KILLED patients several times if she had NOT changed the dosages. So the know-it-all doctor was the one that wound up coming under fire. :D My other sister, unfortunetly, is one of those nurses that just doesn't care, and she almost caused the death of a child because she fell asleep while she was supposed to be watching him. :( Now my mother works in the fiscal dept of a federal hospital, and she said she would one day write abook about the federal gov't (explaining WHY they buy $500 hammers). When you know how things REALLY work, its pretty damn scarey.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-17-08, 11:39 AM	And Shemmy, obviously you live outside of the United States (or in a state that's smart enough to disregard the feds). The US Gov't is AGAINST stem cell research. People like GB say its because it's immoral, but the real reason is because THERE ARE CURES to be found there. I live in NC, part of the bible belt and also home to one of the top three R&D hot spots in the US. The Research Triangle Park area around Raleigh is pretty much the Silicon Valley of the southeast. And on the stem cell area, let me correct a few things there. The press tends to really lambast politicians like GB for putting limits on federal funding of human embryonic stem cell research, but they tend to never get into the full story. I don't support the limits mind you, but prior to GB there was even less funding under Clinton (as in none, there was a blanket ban on federal support enacted in 1996). Bush allowed it, but only for cell lines already in existance. These federal guidelines however don't say anything about adult source stem cells or animal stem cells (I've done work on both), and honestly you're more likely to see advances from adult sourced autologous stem cell transplants in the next few years than from embryonic sourced cells. A -ton- of advancement is going on in the US (and elsewhere) regardless of the federal guidelines (they're bad, and not helping, but it's funneling money into those alternatives and yes, we're seeing progress there. In my opinion, the benefit of using fetal origin cells will be moot in a few years just based on our expanding knowledge of what genes and cell signaling molecules are involved in turning on, reverting, and differentiating cells regardless of adult or embryonic origin). Still, despite politicians not understanding the science (on both sides of the aisle), I'd rather be working on it in the US versus some other places. Biotech faces some serious downright hostility in some portions of Europe (people threatening scientists, tearing up experimental fields over luddite scaremongering on genetic engineering, etc). A few countries have banned chimera use, etc. The restrictions here aren't good and they should be lifted entirely, but it's still better than many other places.
MarkusTay63 05-17-08, 12:08 PM	Why did I think you were from Germany? :confused: I must have gotten you confused with one of our Drowess posters. :embarrass Anyway, although I was way off, you understood perfectly where I was coming from. Thanks for enlightening me - this thread has really helped to purge some cobwebs. :) You have no idea how happy I am that research continues to move forward despite opposition. believe it or not, I am a highly religous person (who'd have guessed?), but I also believe that saving lives is of the utmost importance, so I don't let my Faith get in the way of my rational mind (usually). You keep up the good work - I lost my Mother-in-law to cancer several years back, and now my mother's diabetes is taking a turn for the worst. I am all for any genetic method of stopping cellular aberrations in the future.
Khaelieth 05-17-08, 12:23 PM	Diabetes mellitus isn't good:( But Reclamation's cancelled:(
MarkusTay63 05-17-08, 12:39 PM	But Elaine is producing stuff for Pathfinder now, so its all good. I can't wait until we see some Pathfinder novels - that world sounds amazing, from what little I've seen. Of course, its not FR, but either way that setting is dead now, and we all have to move on to something else soon anyway (or get 'left behind'). How weird would it be if I used 4e rules in the Pathfinder world? I still don't know which way I'll go until I see the finished version of both (although Pathfinder does have 'backward compatibility' on it's side).
Stigger 05-17-08, 01:23 PM	And that backward compatibility is awfully compelling...
Lord Karsus 05-17-08, 01:33 PM	The US Gov't is AGAINST stem cell research. People like GB say its because it's immoral, but the real reason is because THERE ARE CURES to be found there. Good For You - keep fighting the good fight. I never said everyone's a shlep - just most of the ones I met are. -This is a myth based on incorrect facts. Let's clear things up, eh? -The U.S. government, on August 9th, 2001, issued federal funds for Human Embryonic Stem Cells (hESC), via an executive order. These funds would pay to research and experiment with the samples already availible to government researchers. The Bush administration, however, said that once these samples ran out, that was it, as it did not want to condone or fund research that directly destroyed embryos. It's predacessor, the Clinton administration, was against hESC research in any form, and did not appoint funds for federal research for either already existing samples, or future samples. -The senate has pass a few bills to loosen the restrictions on federal hSEC research. All have been vetoed, thus far. That said, what happens concerning this issue will be dependent on the next presidential administration. No matter who wins the election, I feel that these restrictions will be loosened. -That said, there are no laws prohibiting the private research of hESC.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-17-08, 01:36 PM	that world sounds amazing, from what little I've seen. It's very cool, and it firmly has my imagination snagged at this point (and not just because I'm freelancing for them http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmywink.gif )
MarkusTay63 05-17-08, 02:25 PM	I didn't forget that Shemmy - I'm a fan of yours as well. As I've said in another thread, having such an amazing lineup of talent doesn't exactly garauntee success, but it certainly 'hedges its bets'. ;) -No matter who wins the election, I feel that these restrictions will be loosened.Don't bet on it. :( MOST of Hilary's campaign funding comes from the medical industry - HMO's. Back when Bill was president, I was a big fan of Hillary's - she was trying to get socialized medicine passed here, like the have in Canada. People who don't listen carefully think she is still out for public health reforms, but in reality she wants to make laws that force poor families to get insurance - insurance they would already have IF they could afford it. That doesn't help the people who are struggling, that just garauntee's the hospitals and doctors will be paid. At the beginning of this election, I was going to vote for either democratic candidate - whichever one got the nomination. After seeing McCain remain a perfect gentleman throughout this election, and even defend Obama, whilst Hilary resorted to smear tactics (normally reserved for Republicans and was first used by Richard Nixon), I have decided that for the second time in my life, I may actually vote for a Republican candidate, despite my disagreeing with most of their platform. Character is the most important quality, in my mind, that a candidate can show me, and both McCain and Obama have shown quite a bit. Hillary just looked like a b.. bad person. ;) I went from really liking her to really disliking her in a few short months.
SmartPaladin 05-17-08, 04:02 PM	Of course, its not FR, but either way that setting is dead now, and we all have to move on to something else soon anyway (or get 'left behind'). Oy... FR isn't dead until WotC cans everything that has the FR name, logo, hunts down every last person who has any FR books and knowledge, kills those people, and sets the books on fire. Why yes, yes I am getting sick of hearing all of this "FR is Dead!" talk. It's an 100 year time jump, a clean slate. Was it a good idea? Probably not in hindsight, but isn't that life for you? "It was a good idea at the time". Okay, I'm done ranting now.
Lord Karsus 05-17-08, 05:30 PM	Don't bet on it. :( -All of what you said may be true, but it doesn't really cover why what I said wouldn't happen. ;) Oy... FR isn't dead until WotC cans everything that has the FR name, logo, hunts down every last person who has any FR books and knowledge, kills those people, and sets the books on fire. -I believe that Rich Baker stated that that was the second or third part of the plan. First, they were removing the 'Forgotten Realms' logo on the new books, then they were confiscating all of the old books, and then those who don't buy the new 4e books are going to be 'offed'.
MarkusTay63 05-17-08, 06:31 PM	First off, Two books and adventure falls a bit short of what we have come to expect as Realms fans. Although both might be 'works of art', thats it, end of story. Now, that being said, thats not even what I meant. The setting we currently know as the Forgotten Realms will be no more. For 4e, they have designed a new setting, with elements of the Realms and a lot of new elements mixed together. The designers, on a number of occasions, have referred to it as "the new setting". Calling it that infers that it is NOT "the old setting". Now, I never said 4e FR was dead, just FR (as we know it), and that we would all have to 'move on' to something else (which includes the new 4e setting),or "get left behind" (meaning, you will be playing in an obsolete game system). So, even if you decide to play 4e FR, you won't be playing FR (the one with a logo) anymore. To do so, you will be using a 'shelved' setting. Thats what I meant - I wasn't dissing 4e FR in any way there, I was just implying it is different enough for the company that designed it to call it "new", and they should know. Anyone who likes what they see SHOULD play it, by all means. I hope many people do, because I still have 'some' interest in the novels, and I would hate to just see FR die off completely. In the meantime, I have many a fond memory of FR, just like I do of GH, but it is time to move on, as WotC wishes us to. Hell, I even considered giving Eberron a try... ;)
Khaelieth 05-17-08, 07:55 PM	Actually though, the U.S. is one of the most generous countries when it comes to science spending. i know Norway doesn't pay anywhere near, relatively speaking. But to me, FR 4th ed is dead. Never cared much for the novels, so not too bothered about that part. But aren't they going to be non-canon from now on?
Lord Karsus 05-17-08, 08:47 PM	Actually though, the U.S. is one of the most generous countries when it comes to science spending. i know Norway doesn't pay anywhere near, relatively speaking. -With a GGP, GNP, population, budget, and so on so large, it's fairly hard for her to not be towards the top on the spending of all kinds of things. But aren't they going to be non-canon from now on? -Not to my knowledge, no. They're still canon.
MarkusTay63 05-18-08, 12:12 AM	The theory is to write novels in the new setting that do not revolve around events, but rather the characters, so that twety miles away no one is even aware of the actions in the novels... at least thats my understanding. So, YES, the novels will still be canon, but they will not effect the game world in any noticeable way (at least, thats the plan... we shall see).
Khaelieth 05-18-08, 08:37 AM	So, YES, the novels will still be canon, but they will not effect the game world in any noticeable way (at least, thats the plan... we shall see). Does anyone believe that?
Stigger 05-18-08, 10:31 AM	I would like to in principle, but... no, not really. Don't care much though, as I don't read many novels to begin with.
MerrikCale 05-18-08, 11:11 AM	Does anyone believe that? nah. There will be a RSE within 12 months
Mula 05-18-08, 01:14 PM	Does anyone believe that? Well, if we're only going to get three books...
Lord Karsus 05-18-08, 02:19 PM	So, YES, the novels will still be canon, but they will not effect the game world in any noticeable way (at least, thats the plan... we shall see). -How's that gonna work? If Novel Character 1 chops down a tree for firewood, the world has changed in a noticible way. There is 1 less tree existing where ever.
Therise 05-18-08, 02:42 PM	The theory is to write novels in the new setting that do not revolve around events, but rather the characters, so that twety miles away no one is even aware of the actions in the novels... at least thats my understanding. So, YES, the novels will still be canon, but they will not effect the game world in any noticeable way (at least, thats the plan... we shall see). Where did you hear of this "plan"?
MarkusTay63 05-18-08, 03:24 PM	Rich has mentioned the new design goals of 4e many times in the "Ask the Designers" thread, and has specifically talked about the novels being about 'smaller stuff'. A couple of other authors have mentioned much the same thing over the past eight months. Then, in the last podcast, both Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell explain that the novels will no longer revolve around RSE's (which supposedly are going to be avoided from now on), but rather 'smaller stories' about individuals (characters, classes, races, etc). Of course, Rich also says that there will be NO novels bridging 3e to 4e (taking place during the 'lost century'), but then Bruce immediately contradicts him by mentioning that his own new novel series is the one exception. Not even out of the gate yet, and one of the FRCG authors is already making exceptions for his own work. :smirk: If they held to all the promises they have made about 4e, I would say it has a lot of potential, but thus far I have seen as much double-talk, spin, and retoric as a political campagn, so I fully expect the 'RSE Escalation' to begin all over again as egos start bumping into each other. But we shall see soon enough..... This post reminds me - I have a sneaking suspician about 'something', and I feel the need to head over to CK right now and ask a question of Ed....
Therise 05-18-08, 03:44 PM	(...)Of course, Rich also says that there will be NO novels bridging 3e to 4e (taking place during the 'lost century'), but then Bruce immediately contradicts him by mentioning that his own new novel series is the one exception. Not even out of the gate yet, and one of the FRCG authors is already making exceptions for his own work. :smirk: Sounds more like intentions than a solid plan or firm company decision. Not that that's bad per se, but it's a little different.
MarkusTay63 05-18-08, 05:39 PM	Very True, good point.
Mula 05-18-08, 06:02 PM	-How's that gonna work? If Novel Character 1 chops down a tree for firewood, the world has changed in a noticible way. There is 1 less tree existing where ever. But future sourcebooks won't detail this event because there will be no future sourcebooks. DDI is another matter, though.
Solisces 05-18-08, 06:57 PM	-How's that gonna work? If Novel Character 1 chops down a tree for firewood, the world has changed in a noticible way. There is 1 less tree existing where ever. I don't know what your definition of "noticeable" is, but unless your DM really does sit down and give you a count of all existing trees in FR, I doubt anyone'll find the missing tree all that significant.
Therise 05-18-08, 06:59 PM	I don't know what your definition of "noticeable" is, but unless your DM really does sit down and give you a count of all existing trees in FR, I doubt anyone'll find the missing tree all that significant. I hear that the world tree is gone. ;)
selunatic2397 05-18-08, 07:25 PM	nah. There will be a RSE within 12 months I bet a large Pizza With The Works that Cyric will be out and free under 12 months! :plotting: Any takers??? :D
Therise 05-18-08, 07:36 PM	I bet a large Pizza With The Works that Cyric will be out and free under 12 months! :plotting: Any takers??? :D Eh, Cyric is such a lame deity. I didn't like him as a mortal, and as a deity he leaves a lot to be desired. Although I liked the general idea for the Time of Troubles story, I really thought it was out of place for the Realms. So in my campaign world we never had the ToT. For game worlds, I've always preferred that deities remain actual deities rather than ascended mortals or some kind of anthropomorphic entity. But as far as the canon Cyric, yeah, I agree there will probably be an RSE pretty soon. Might be about him, or it might be about something else, but it'll definitely happen soon.
Solisces 05-18-08, 08:10 PM	I hear that the world tree is gone. ;) I think we're all in trouble if the world tree is vulnerable to a level 1 character wielding a presumably non-magical, mundane axe. Or even a +45364363 axe. :(
SmartPaladin 05-18-08, 08:11 PM	Eh, Cyric is such a lame deity. I didn't like him as a mortal, and as a deity he leaves a lot to be desired. Although I liked the general idea for the Time of Troubles story, I really thought it was out of place for the Realms. So in my campaign world we never had the ToT. For game worlds, I've always preferred that deities remain actual deities rather than ascended mortals or some kind of anthropomorphic entity. But as far as the canon Cyric, yeah, I agree there will probably be an RSE pretty soon. Might be about him, or it might be about something else, but it'll definitely happen soon. I honestly thought Cyric was cooler when he was insane. Just the name "Cyric the Mad" had awesome all over it. :P Also, at one point, Bane used to be Mortal. As did Uthgar.
Therise 05-18-08, 09:15 PM	I honestly thought Cyric was cooler when he was insane. Just the name "Cyric the Mad" had awesome all over it. :P Also, at one point, Bane used to be Mortal. As did Uthgar. True enough, although the story about Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul was still at the level of "myth" in 1st Ed, when it could be regarded as a children's fable (and that was fine). With 2nd Ed, it became "real" as canon. Unfortunate, really, as it set the stage for the ToT and authors trying to outdo each other with the next greatest RSE. I think that's why I'm a little hesitant about believing what they've said about RSEs going away or being reduced. Same set of authors, after all.
MarkusTay63 05-18-08, 09:42 PM	Bear in mind that Cyric's punishment was imprisonment for a crime, and that usually means for a set amount of time, so he can very well be 'set free' on day one of the campaign setting, if he was sentenced to a century. If he's not set free in the FRCG, then I can pretty much garauntee one of the authors - probably a member of the FRCG design team - is saving that little gem for his own novel series. But he's a 100 years to think about things, so now hes no longer mad, just slightly perturbed. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-19-08, 01:05 AM	But future sourcebooks won't detail this event because there will be no future sourcebooks. DDI is another matter, though. -That doesn't change the fact that Faerūn itself is different. If events in novels had to wait until sourcebooks cought up to them and incorporated their events, things would be very...jumbled. And confusing. I don't know what your definition of "noticeable" is, but unless your DM really does sit down and give you a count of all existing trees in FR, I doubt anyone'll find the missing tree all that significant. -Therein lies the rub. What is considered "signifigant"? An author has an NPC that he/she thinks doesn't matter much killed in his/her novel, and suddenly, somewhere, someone had a character they might have wanted to incorporate dead. While some people simply shrug, and use the character anyway, other's have just had their parade rained on. Or, again, if in some novel, the hut of XYZ the NPC burns down, and then, in a future sourcebook/article/whatever is going in in 4e, I don't know or really understand it, it's there, due to someone not paying attention, or whatever the case is. D'oh! Now what? -But, that demonstrates the beauty of the setting. No matter where, there's always some place that people like and play in. Even you, Maztica, even you...
Khaelieth 05-19-08, 09:37 AM	But he's a 100 years to think about things, so now hes no longer mad, just slightly perturbed. ;) After a 100 years in isolation? He'll be, if possible, more insane! He'll come out with a pencil up each nostril, his underpants on his head, saying "wobble" over and over again.
Stigger 05-19-08, 09:44 AM	And be far more interesting if that's the case...
MarkusTay63 05-19-08, 10:03 AM	Now you see, thats a perfect example of how different people view things. I accept that that is a distinct possibility, but I prefer to think that he 'stewed in his own juices' for a decade or two... and then started to scheme. :devil: Think about it - He killed Mystra! - quite possibly the most powerful God in Realmspace (Ao is NOT a god), maybe even the most powerful god anywhere (she exerted quite a bit of control outside of the Realms as well). Shar gets at least some of Mystra's energy, and becomes even more powerful. Cyric - the guy who actually did the dead - gets to sit in prison for a century or so. Obviously he was played... and just who do you think Mr. Insane-O will be the most angry at when he gets out? At least, thats the way I would play it. I never liked him as the 'crazy stalker' he was painted as in his divinity. When he was mortal, he was a very cunning man, and killed a god - why would godhood make him 'weaker' (and mental illness IS a weakness)? Most of his 'mortal' hatred was aimed at Mystra, so with her death, he should have had a moment of clarity. Shar directed ALL of the events that lead up to the ToT and his ascension - even Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal were duped. I'd give him his "get out of jail FREE" card, have him be the god of Murder (Asssassins, just like Bhaal was), and perhaps even have him make peace with his old friend Kelemvor - after all, they are both affiliated with death, and the 4e cosmology rules requires gods of like mind to form 'mini-Pantheons'. I just never got him as a 'nut case'. GH has a crazy god named Xagyg, and I liked the way he was portrayed there - more like Halaster; you never new which way he was going to swing (in terms of alignment), and one moment he could be helpful, and the next, your worst nightmare. 'Cyric as God' just came off as a Charles Manson wanna-be to me. :( I do realize that a lot of folks like him that way though, so whatever they do with him in 4e, I hope they at least make it interesting.
Alediran 05-19-08, 11:44 AM	It would be an interesting turn of events if Cyric suddenly realized Shar screwed him and decided to kill her, having to ally with his former enemies to defeat her or at least to restore Mystra, weakening Shar (I don't think Cyric would hate Mystra as much as Shar after that).
Lord Karsus 05-19-08, 12:04 PM	It would be an interesting turn of events if Cyric suddenly realized Shar screwed him and decided to kill her, having to ally with his former enemies to defeat her or at least to restore Mystra, weakening Shar (I don't think Cyric would hate Mystra as much as Shar after that). -I don't think he'd do that, because of a phenominon common in international politics: "She's in the same boat he's in". More or less. Eliminating her means more attention focused specifically on him.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-19-08, 12:56 PM	Why yes, yes I am getting sick of hearing all of this "FR is Dead!" talk. It's an 100 year time jump, a clean slate. Was it a good idea? Probably not in hindsight, but isn't that life for you? "It was a good idea at the time". And heck, people can just use the version of the Realms that they like--the Realms isn't dead to me because I still care about it, and I can still develop the setting in the way I wish to.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-19-08, 01:00 PM	Sounds more like intentions than a solid plan or firm company decision. Not that that's bad per se, but it's a little different. Right, WotC intends to slow down on the RSEs--they never said there would be no new RSEs. Also, Rich said that if they get a really great idea for a story and it happens to involve an RSE, they would still "greenlight" it.
Khaelieth 05-19-08, 04:33 PM	Still think my idea of Cyric, the underpants and pencils is the most realistic!;p Then he goes to his "special" place. With daffodils, dandy lions, chocolate and butterflies.
Stigger 05-19-08, 05:53 PM	I'd vote for your version Khaelieth...
Lord Karsus 05-19-08, 08:43 PM	I'd vote for your version Khaelieth... -When I hear Khaelieth say "special place", I prepare for the worst.
Stigger 05-20-08, 08:11 AM	Cyric deserves worse...
xmen510 05-20-08, 08:20 AM	Cyric Must Be Stopped! Cyric Must Die! Bring Back Mystra! There, needed to get that off my chest! :)
MerrikCale 05-27-08, 08:17 PM	oh well, the cover was nice
JudgeDookie 05-27-08, 10:32 PM	Cyric Must Be Stopped! Cyric Must Die! Bring Back Mystra! There, needed to get that off my chest! :) What do I do with you. :ahem: Just release the Chaos hound on his ass until he comes around to his senses. Once his sanity comes back, all this 4e crap will have never taken place. Duh. :uh-huh:
Lord Karsus 05-29-08, 11:40 PM	oh well, the cover was nice -What did the cover look like? I've never seen it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-30-08, 01:45 PM	-What did the cover look like? I've never seen it. Arilyn on a snowy mountain (I think) walking away from her moonblade, which was stuck in the ground. It was definitely thought-provoking.
Lord Karsus 05-30-08, 02:15 PM	Arilyn on a snowy mountain (I think) walking away from her moonblade, which was stuck in the ground. It was definitely thought-provoking. -Sounds interesting. Is there an image somewhere?
Alediran 05-30-08, 02:25 PM	Guys and gals: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1038413 You don't have idea how I'm at this moment, wrath and hate is not something that flourishes from me that easy, but at this moment I'm burning with rage.
Lord Karsus 05-30-08, 02:35 PM	Guys and gals: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1038413 You don't have idea how I'm at this moment, wrath and hate is not something that flourishes from me that easy, but at this moment I'm burning with rage. -Thanks. For the second time, now, I read that accidentally! -I did not want to be spoiled! -I thought that was an image of the book cover...:waits:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-30-08, 06:47 PM	-Thanks. For the second time, now, I read that accidentally! -I did not want to be spoiled! -I thought that was an image of the book cover...:waits: Me too, actually. Alediran, you goofed. LK: See the cover here. (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/elaine-cunningham/reclamation.htm)
MerrikCale 05-30-08, 10:57 PM	Arilyn on a snowy mountain (I think) walking away from her moonblade, which was stuck in the ground. It was definitely thought-provoking. exactly. It was nicely done
Lord Karsus 05-30-08, 11:38 PM	Me too, actually. Alediran, you goofed. LK: See the cover here. (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/elaine-cunningham/reclamation.htm) -That was a nice image. Thank you, my dear.
MarkusTay63 05-31-08, 05:39 PM	You know.... seeing the cover makes it so much worse. :(
Lord Karsus 05-31-08, 06:28 PM	You know.... seeing the cover makes it so much worse. :( -Eh, yes and no.
MarkusTay63 05-31-08, 07:00 PM	So, holding out a steak dinner to a starving man isn't torture? That book there would have been the culmination of so many epic storylines. All of which are just dead-ends now. :(
Lord Karsus 05-31-08, 07:14 PM	So, holding out a steak dinner to a starving man isn't torture? That book there would have been the culmination of so many epic storylines. All of which are just dead-ends now. :( -I see it, using that analogy, as adding a side dish to that steak dinner. The steak dinner (being the novel itself), was already dangled in front of us, and than yanked away, so to speak. Does including a good side side dish (the potenial cover) with that steak really make it that much worse? I don't really think so.
Alediran 05-31-08, 07:16 PM	-I see it, using that analogy, as adding a side dish to that steak dinner. The steak dinner (being the novel itself), was already dangled in front of us, and than yanked away, so to speak. Does including a good side side dish (the potenial cover) with that steak really make it that much worse? I don't really think so. Being partialy a cheff, for me it is. I rather not have anything at all from the dinner than having only a little that shows me how amazing was going to be.
Lord Karsus 05-31-08, 07:26 PM	-I can barely cook. I just discovered how to cook hot dogs in the microwave, so...
Alediran 05-31-08, 07:32 PM	I'm a pretty decent cook. My GFs birthday was last 25th and I made her birthday cake.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-31-08, 08:58 PM	-That was a nice image. Thank you, my dear. You're very welcome.;)
Stigger 06-01-08, 11:46 AM	Think of it as another reminder we can get melodramatic about and it starts making more sense... *yawn*