Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Exploit 04-15-07, 01:31 AM	Spoiler Warning: Do not read any further if you do not wish to know about the Red Hand of Doom. I'm playing the Red Hand of Doom in a Forgotten Realms scenario and I have an idea on how to defeat the entire dragon/hobgoblin army with just my two characters. I'm only on Day 5 of the module and I do not want to know anything more about the specifics of the module however I would like to know if anyone can see any canon rules violations in my proposed tactic. I have a 9th level shadow weave Red Wizard of Thay and a 9th level Divine Disciple of Velsharoon working together, with a 5th level fighter/rogue cohort. I have recently killed a young adult blue dragon that was guarding a bridge and turned it into a zombie dragon (as per the draconomicon). My plan is as follows: 1) Velsharoon cleric casts Eyes of the Zombie (BoVD) to remotely control the zombie dragon and to see through its eyes. 2) Red Wizard flies on the Zombie Dragon to a spot in front of the advancing hobgoblin army. 3) Red Wizard casts Magic Jar. 4) Zombie Dragon puts Red Wizard's corpse and the magic jar gem in its mouth. 5) Zombie Dragon burrows underground towards the advancing army (anywhere from 20-100 feet below ground). 6) When within range of the army the Red Wizard starts possessing the strongest positive life forces that he can sense. 7) If possessed creature is non-human then attack nearest opponents of another race hoping to start internal conflict between the forces. 8) When eventually killed, possessed next strongest positive life force and repeat process until enemy is dead, spell is about to expire or everyone has fled. 9) If possessing a humanoid creature then cast dominate person and charm monsters to swing more enemies to my side. Because there is more then 3 feet of ground between the magic jar gem and the enemy they will not be able to detect the gem nor will they be able to dispel it however my magic jar works fine through the ground. Unless there are some more burrowing creatures (which I do not believe there are since the only remaining dragon that I am aware of is green) then the enemy will not be able to reach the zombie dragon/magic jar gem/ the Red Wizard's body. The only weakness that I can see in my plan is that a successful dispel magic targetted on a creature that I was possessing could end the magic jar spell. In this scenario, the Red Wizard would crawl into his bag of holding while the zombie dragon burrows the duo away from the ambush site. Anyone see any flaws with this plan that I have missed? For added fun the Velsharoon Cleric may use Summon Undead V to get a shadow that can turn one or more of my goblin prisoners into a shadow. The Red Wizard could use Command Undead on the shadow to make it an ally and the Velsharoon cleric could use Haunt Shift (Libris Mortis) to make the shadow possess an object. Bringing the possessed object along on the journey and unleashing the shadow to create more shadows while I am magic jarring the enemy could end up with hundreds of shadows being created while totally annihilating the hobgoblin army. Anyone see flaws with this plan? Thanks, Exploit
redmagefish 04-15-07, 07:14 PM	i see alot of flaws and even more risks ok. undead dragon right they have a natrual spell sheild all arounder them and even the normal not undead dragons are power and do not easyly fall under spells.they all so have a sheild of fear which will be hard to pass with out the dragon finding you out and so so many more to much risk i would say
Exploit 04-16-07, 12:13 AM	RedMageFish, thanks for the feedback. You brought up two good points which I need to address. The cleric commanding the undead dragon will need to order the zombie to lower its spell resistance for the casting of the Eyes of the Zombie spell. Easily done but an oversight in my plan. I'm not certain if the fear aura from the zombie dragon goes through ground or not, but to be safe the zombie dragon needs to be burrowing at least 160 feet underground. My magic jar spell has a range of 210 feet so that problem can be covered as well. Any other things that I have missed?
redmagefish 04-16-07, 10:29 AM	well if the dragon is of the talons of taimets he will have even more powers over both of you and will the cleric have power over the undead dragon you would think it may but dragons that are undead are not like other undead things plus the dragon may call on the cult and the cults magic to sheild him from your spells it may work but i do not know if it will work
Exploit 04-16-07, 11:58 AM	For the clerics to take control of my zombie dragon they would need to 36th level, even to rebuke it they would need to affect 18 HD. I also do not think they are likely to have any necromantic secrets that I am unaware of since my cleric is dedicated to necromancy and is the divine disciple to the god of undead. On the other hand, they may not be prepared for my necromantic cyst magic... The arcane Command Undead spell is my greatest fear since if they beat SR 19 then the zombie does not get any save. Of course my wizard has two Command Undead spells memorized to counter this control if necessary. Thus far I have not seen any indication that my opponents are vastly more powerful than myself. From the DM's comments, I believe my highest level opponents are around CR 13 therefore I only need to worry about the fact that their forces vastly outnumber my puny mercenary band of 25 orcs, 5 kobolds, 2 charmed monsters and the undead that I have managed to create thus far. Sounds like the perfect scenario for classic guerilla tactics. I need to disrupt their forces with hit and run tactics and not engage in set piece battles. This plan is the best guerilla tactic that I have been able to devise, although it was closely matched by a variant tactic: using Eyes of the Zombie and a bunch of buff spells (in particular Favorable Sacrifice) then attack the enemy using the zombie dragon drone. Unfortunately, I think that a live dragon or two will be able to destroy my zombie in an aerial duel. The zombies slow limitation means that it cannot really attack and fly at the same time. :( My main concern is in the dragon counter attack that is likely to occur after my guerilla attack. The fear from several dragons will mean most of my mercenaries will flee the battle before it even starts. I need some means of eliminating the Red Hand's air force, in particular their dragons. If I can establish air superiority while the enemy's army is far enough away then I can interdict them long enough to build up my undead forces. Hmm, I may have to delay my guerilla attack for a day or two until I can either make an adequate defense for my base or I can establish clear air superiority. Hopefully the Red Hand's plans won't be advanced too far by the delay. I'm not worried about the Tiamat forces calling on the Cult of the Dragon since in theory I can do the same. I have a powerful Velsharoon ally, in the form of my mother Dawn of the Lightless Sun (Underdark), who could probably influence the lower level Velsharoon clerics that comprise many of the Cult's clerics. Furthermore, in theory I could pull in some Red Wizards of Thay allies however I do not want to be endebted to either of these groups so I will not do that unless I am severely losing (even then I would probably cut my losses and move instead). I think my enemy would have similar reservations about expanding the conflict. I am not 100% confident that my DM won't just up my enemy's power levels or defences to reduce my chances of success (I believe he has already done so on three occassions) however that is a chance I'm willing to take. I like being the underdog fighting against overwhelming forces and if I lose then the campaign ends and I roll up another first level character and we start over again and I have some cool new character builds that I'd be interested in trying...
ClobberinTime 04-16-07, 12:51 PM	Dude this won't work. According to the description of the Magic Jar spell, you need to have line of effect to the target. If you are underground your line of effect is blocked. i.e. the dragon can burrow under that baddies with you and the gem, but you can't actually possess anyone.
Exploit 04-16-07, 03:19 PM	ClobberinTime, upon re-reading the spell, I see that you are correct. Thanks for pointing that out since it is errors like that which will get me killed! :) According to the spell description, To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or line of effect to it. But While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. So when the spell ends or the possessed body dies does the body need line of sight as the latter case or just be in range as the former case? Also is the range for returning to the gem the former (100 + 10 ft/lvl) or the latter 10 ft per level? It is not clear to me based on the spell description, As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if with*in range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body. If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range,and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain. If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range).
ClobberinTime 04-17-07, 01:07 PM	The key part is that you can't possess anything that you don't have line of effect to, any physical object blocks line of effect. Since it doesn't specifically say, I think you just need to be in range to return to the gem, and not have line of effect or sight in that case.