Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnkretzer 11-13-06, 10:51 PM	What chance do people think of them reseting things? Getting rid of alot of bad decisions(well in my opinion atleast) Or they could print a new line called Classic FRs. Pretty reprint all the old stuff with some new stuff with a 3.5 rules. Set back when they first published the FR. I know I would buy it.
GothicDan 11-13-06, 10:58 PM	It would never happen, though I'd certainly like it to, sometimes.
Dark Wizard 11-13-06, 11:02 PM	They would likely retcon things first, like they did with the cosmology, and before that with Kara-Tur/Zakhara/Maztica/(Insert generic cultural variant continent with entirely different design philosophy here). However, I agree, if they cut out a lot of the extra baggage tagged on over the years, or at least spent time working it all in properly, one of the biggest complaints against the setting would cease for the most part. That being - FR is a set of unimaginative real world analogues with no internal consistency.
msatran 11-13-06, 11:16 PM	That's not the problem, as far as I'm concerned. All fantasy worlds are inherently real world analogues. It's unavoidable. It's the consequence of historicist thinking that has prevailed in symbolic interpretation since the 17th century. The problem is that the Realms was originally a series of STORIES about PEOPLE! And now, it has exploded into a level of cosmic insanity that would make fans of the Anime Series Slayers proud. I'm sorry, but while there's a lot to be said for Slayers, I don't really appreciate that sort of Anime type of thinking in the Forgotten Realms. It just...doesn't belong there. I really wish that a lot of these folks would sit up and say "Stop...let's think about how in theme this is before we publish this." That's all I really need. Eric Boyd and Steven Schend, miraculously, as the major players besides Mr. Greenwood, are thankfully free of most of this, but unfortunately, some bad apples have crept into the mix.
GothicDan 11-13-06, 11:22 PM	Of course, Msatran, I bet you would find it hard to find European versions of the analogues of Kara-Tur's Boxer Rebellion and the Dali Lama. ;)
Dark Wizard 11-13-06, 11:32 PM	I said some people feel that "FR is a set of unimaginative real world analogues with no internal consistency." Which doesn't meant it can't be a set of imaginative real world analogues with internal consistency. In fact, many good fantasy settings are just that.
BadCatMan 11-14-06, 12:08 AM	I came to the Realms quite late, about two and a half years ago, so everything seems completely normal to me. :) But I think jumping the timeline forwards a century or so would be interesting, paving a lot of the RSEs into past history and simply moving on. Then starting again with something like a fresh slate, with new heroes, new NPCs, evolved nations and new threats. Then people timid of the sheer amounts of lore could get involved more easily. The real-world-analogues that people complain about could be evolved to better fit the Realms and become more unique. And fix any number of real or perceived flaws.
BrianCritchley 11-15-06, 05:55 PM	But I think jumping the timeline forwards a century or so would be interesting problem with that is that the fans will wanna know what changed and until we get the details be very critical. "whadda mean they is ruled by a Paladin? that'd never happen" and it's only 5 years down the road that we find out how it happened and suddenly it seems possiable.
BadCatMan 11-15-06, 09:14 PM	Well obviously a potted history of the intervening years should be given, just as one would with an entirely new campaign setting.
Kin-Kaal V'ryce 11-16-06, 11:11 AM	Really, if you want to reset everything and go back to the beginnings, just go to RPGNow and download the original 1st edition box set and the FR-Series books (especially the first few: Waterdeep and the North, Moonshaes, Empires of Sand, Savage Frontier, Dreams of Red Wizards, and maybe Bloodstone Lands). They're all about 95-98% fluff text anyway with only a few 1st edition stats. Most of the character stats are nothing more then class/level, which are easy to convert over. My online gaming group is just about to start a new campaign using only the books listed above. (of course we're also using Green Ronin's True20 rules rather then D&D 3.5).
Faraer 11-16-06, 01:19 PM	As a roleplaying setting, I find the 1350s DR almost incomparably better, more compelling and coherent than the 1370s. But apart from Wizards not wanting to offend those who've invested time, money, and engagement in the official timeline, the good new and the bad new are so intertwined that the amputation of the bad would be a major creative project of reconstructive surgery.
Aratharn 11-16-06, 02:53 PM	can some veterans explain the major differences between AD&D and 3.5? (main changes in the core classes and so on)
Dark Wizard 11-16-06, 03:23 PM	It's almost an entirely different system, just that some of the classes, races, and mechanics share the same name.
Aratharn 11-16-06, 03:27 PM	can you give me an example? what about levels?
Dark Wizard 11-16-06, 03:55 PM	Briefly: - The equivalent of BAB was THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class 0, the lower the better). - 3e AC (higher the better, 10 + modifiers, dex, armor, shield, etc) vs. 2e AC (Lower the better, Start at 10 subtract modifiers from it, negative numbers were great) Been a while since I've played AD&D, but I think you subtract your target's AC from your THAC0 (negative AC would add to the roll), you had to roll higher than that result on a d20 to hit. - No feats, just weapon proficiencies (either you know how to use a weapon or not, penalty if not, -2 for fighters, up to -4 or -5 for mages). Only fighters could specialize (spend more than one proficiency on a weapon to get bonuses to hit, damage and # of attacks). Specialization was an optional rule, discretion of the DM. - No skills, just non-weapon proficiencies, which worked like stat checks (actual stat number not modifier. If I recall correctly, if you strength was 13, you had to roll a 13 or better on a d20) -Thief skills (bards and rangers had a few of them) were separate and special, done in percentages. - 3e Saves (Fort, Ref, Will) vs. Saving Throws (5 or 6 of them, things ranging from Death, Breath and Spells, I forget the rest). Saves were not affected by stats. - Stats, still 3-18 being the normal range, but each stat had different modifiers for each number. In 2e, most stats didn't give bonuses until around 15 or 16. I think 1e matched more closely with 3e with the stat modifiers at regular intervals. - Spells in 2e were not affected by stats. Some spell casters did get bonus spells for high stats. - The Barbarian, Sorcerer and Monk were not core classes in 2e. Never played 1e, but I think the Barbarian and Monk were core classes then, as well as Assassin. - In 2e, half-orcs weren't a core race. Might have been in 1e. - In 2e, no prestige classes. You had Kits, which were modifed classes (not unlike substitution levels), usually you had the benefits and hinderances at level 1. - Humans can only dual-class. Start in a class, then switch to another, but you can't return to the old class, and if your new class level is lower than your old class, but you use old class abilities you don't get exp for the encounter. -Demi-humans (elves, dwarves, etc.) can only multiclass (and each race can only multiclass in specific combinations). This works somewhat like gestalt classes in 3e's Unearthed Arcana. - Humans received almost not bonuses, except that they could take any class and have unlimited advancement as long as they gained XP. - Almost all demi-humans could only reach a certain level in most classes. Example: Dwarves could go up to at least 10+ in classes like fighter or cleric, but maybe only up to level 9 in thief (3e rogue). They couldn't be mages at all. - Some classes were restricted to race. Only Humans could be paladins, almost all druids were humans, etc. - If you went really far back, OD&D or before, Elf and Dwarf used the mechanics of classes not races. If you played an elf, you had a certain number and types of abilities, and just that, unlike humans, you could be a human fighter or a human thief, you were simply an elf. This is all just a very, very brief summary of differences and a crude one at that.
Aratharn 11-16-06, 04:17 PM	:OMG! so that's why i couldn't make a paladin with an elf char in Baldur's gate 2 (remember the threat i asked about Drow-Paladin? it was because of that)
TomCosta 11-16-06, 04:58 PM	If you want to learn about the changes between AD&D (aka 2E) and 3E/3.5E, you're best bet is to download the free update guides somewhere on the Wizards website.
icote 11-16-06, 10:10 PM	Instead of trying to play catch-up with the novels, you could do what I plan on doing: set your game 700-800 years in the future, throw in few cataclysmic events, and you've got yourself your own fine tuned Realms.
johnkretzer 11-16-06, 11:58 PM	Instead of trying to play catch-up with the novels, you could do what I plan on doing: set your game 700-800 years in the future, throw in few cataclysmic events, and you've got yourself your own fine tuned Realms. That is a little drastic. I posted this to see what people would think about a reset. I personaly look at what they doing and wondering why? Now it isn't that the stories or ideas are bad(though some are in my opinion), but there is too much going on. There is also nothing left up to the DM anymore. All the mystery has left the setting if you will. The "Forgotten" stuff is being remembered. I mean why have the city of Shade when you have the Zhentilar, Cult of the Dragons, Red wizards of Thay, Shadow Thieves of Amn, The Twisted Rune, etc, already there? Also can't we have more....humen evil if you will. I mean one more group that has cosmic plans is going to drive me nuts. Personaly I would like to see evil( or amoral) adventuring groups that works for the above groups rather then new villians.
BrianCritchley 11-17-06, 03:03 AM	meh the small time human evil is whats being elft up to the DMs.
BadCatMan 11-17-06, 04:24 AM	There's only as much going on in the Realms as you wish for your campaign. If I want to centre around the Cult of the Dragon, and someone asks what the Thayans are up to, then they're just twiddling their thumbs and selling discount potions at bargain basement prices.
johnkretzer 11-17-06, 12:00 PM	There's only as much going on in the Realms as you wish for your campaign. If I want to centre around the Cult of the Dragon, and someone asks what the Thayans are up to, then they're just twiddling their thumbs and selling discount potions at bargain basement prices. That might be how you run your game. It isn't how I run my game. The world doesn't stand still just because my PCs are focused on something else. Also I am sorry I find the cosmic bad guys to be ho-hum. If I really want that I can just use some demon or devil with class levels(Mariliths with Dervish levels is just very very wrong.)
icote 11-17-06, 01:08 PM	That is a little drastic. I posted this to see what people would think about a reset. I personaly look at what they doing and wondering why? Don't get me wrong, I've liked the last handful of Realms books I read: Cormyr series, Shadow series. Its just that unless I dedicate all my reading time to focusing on Realms novels and updating the Realms world for my game, I have no time for anything else. I just find that the published plotlines are way to hard to keep up with, as there are so many of them. I wouldn't mind a plain ol' reset either, but how far back do you take it? Time of Troubles? 1372? Originally, I had planned on setting my game back to 2nd edition and start with a modified Daggerdale series, but that was just adhering to another set of plotlines.
GothicDan 11-18-06, 03:47 PM	There's only as much going on in the Realms as you wish for your campaign. If I want to centre around the Cult of the Dragon, and someone asks what the Thayans are up to, then they're just twiddling their thumbs and selling discount potions at bargain basement prices. I'd probably quit a game in which a DM said that and sincerely meant it.
BrianCritchley 11-18-06, 04:08 PM	I'd probably quit a game in which a DM said that and sincerely meant it. true GD but if you asked your GM that he should say that, as your char doesn't know Tzass Tam is building up an undead army in an attacmpt to conquer skullport as a prelude to the conquest of water deep, but is currently having his plans foiled by adventurers secrectly hired by another zulker who does not want to endanger the trust of the enclave system, at least before he is perpared to make a conquest of his own.. sure that might happening but you don't know it, (and the DM proably hasn't thought of what they are doing as the red wizards at this time in his game are irrelevent)
johnkretzer 11-18-06, 05:55 PM	true GD but if you asked your GM that he should say that, as your char doesn't know Tzass Tam is building up an undead army in an attacmpt to conquer skullport as a prelude to the conquest of water deep, but is currently having his plans foiled by adventurers secrectly hired by another zulker who does not want to endanger the trust of the enclave system, at least before he is perpared to make a conquest of his own.. sure that might happening but you don't know it, (and the DM proably hasn't thought of what they are doing as the red wizards at this time in his game are irrelevent) If my players just ask me"What are the Red Wizards doing?" Then the answear will be just as depth full as the question. If on the otherhand they actualy start looking in on what the Red wizards are doing then if I give the same answear well that is just poor DMing.
BadCatMan 11-18-06, 10:25 PM	Well that got completely misinterpreted. But if I'm DMing down in Chult or wherever, then the machinations of the Red Wizards in Thay on the other side of Faerun are simply not known or relevant. They might as well be on hold for a while, or biding their time, or rebuilding, or whatever. Who's to know any different? If I tried to understand and encompass everything that's going on in the Realms, then, well, my head would explode.
GothicDan 11-19-06, 01:53 AM	true GD but if you asked your GM that he should say that, as your char doesn't know Tzass Tam is building up an undead army in an attacmpt to conquer skullport as a prelude to the conquest of water deep, but is currently having his plans foiled by adventurers secrectly hired by another zulker who does not want to endanger the trust of the enclave system, at least before he is perpared to make a conquest of his own.. sure that might happening but you don't know it, (and the DM proably hasn't thought of what they are doing as the red wizards at this time in his game are irrelevent) Hence why I said, "and was sincere about it." :)
GothicDan 11-19-06, 01:54 AM	If I tried to understand and encompass everything that's going on in the Realms, then, well, my head would explode. I suppose not everyone wants to do physics, either. ;)
BadCatMan 11-19-06, 02:46 AM	I do physics too. Probably not a good sign.
johnkretzer 11-19-06, 03:29 AM	Well that got completely misinterpreted. But if I'm DMing down in Chult or wherever, then the machinations of the Red Wizards in Thay on the other side of Faerun are simply not known or relevant. They might as well be on hold for a while, or biding their time, or rebuilding, or whatever. Who's to know any different? If I tried to understand and encompass everything that's going on in the Realms, then, well, my head would explode. If I am running a game down in Chult and the PCs want to go and fight the Red Wizards of Thay...Then my grand adventure in Chult gets sidetracked for later. Though whatever was going down in Chult will not just go static either. So yes I try to think of all that encompasses the Realms when I am running a campaign. Well atleast on the surface. I do this because I believe it gives a more realistic feel to my game. I also don't get all upset when my players go left instead of right. But then again I can run a very good game on the fly.
BadCatMan 11-19-06, 03:54 AM	Perhaps I should explain further. I play and DM in an multi-campaign online group that has been structured around the regional nature of the Realms. There's a Chult region, a Silver Marches region, a Dalelands region, a Thay region, and so on. Campaigns are heavily focused around adventuring within these regions, and rarely leave their borders. If something happens in a distant region, that is the purview of the DM and players there. It's been quite successful I might add. Lots of players, DMs and games, all long-running and enjoyable. I run the Vast and Chessenta regions. I've researched these regions to the limits of what is humanly possible, collecting over a hundred pages of notes on each. Apart from regional factions, the Cult of the Dragon and the Red Wizards are quite active in both, so of course I do pay attention to both these groups and how they are active in my regions. Other factions and villians, those who have no active plans in the Vast or Chessenta, or simply have different plans elsewhere - they are quite literally another DM's and another campaign's problem. I guess I'm just too used to thinking of the Realms in a modular nature.
BrianCritchley 11-19-06, 05:41 AM	anyway as a DM I track the "important factions" in so far as knowing what their goals are and where their sphere's of influance are. I think that's sortta the important thing, you need to keep in mind the goals and possiable reactions of the powers whose sphere of influance you're operating in, in my game the players have just been awarded a keep in cormyr. this old ruined keep however falls on former holdings of the bleth family. who might not be too thrilled to hear about upstart adventurers living on "their" land. as such I do need to note that as a result of this they may have some trouble with the fire knives.. but I proably don't need to worry about the red wizards that much as my players are currently in cormyr and as far as I can tell the RWs do not have much in the way of activity in cormyr. (I imagine after the acabus affair they've pretty much sunk any hope of getting an enclave in cormyr)
johnkretzer 11-19-06, 11:41 AM	Perhaps I should explain further. I play and DM in an multi-campaign online group that has been structured around the regional nature of the Realms. There's a Chult region, a Silver Marches region, a Dalelands region, a Thay region, and so on. Campaigns are heavily focused around adventuring within these regions, and rarely leave their borders. If something happens in a distant region, that is the purview of the DM and players there. It's been quite successful I might add. Lots of players, DMs and games, all long-running and enjoyable. I run the Vast and Chessenta regions. I've researched these regions to the limits of what is humanly possible, collecting over a hundred pages of notes on each. Apart from regional factions, the Cult of the Dragon and the Red Wizards are quite active in both, so of course I do pay attention to both these groups and how they are active in my regions. Other factions and villians, those who have no active plans in the Vast or Chessenta, or simply have different plans elsewhere - they are quite literally another DM's and another campaign's problem. I guess I'm just too used to thinking of the Realms in a modular nature. Wasn't critizing as much as pointing out there lots of different ways to treat the Realms. It sounds interesting. Never played online but the set up you have makes sense for the what you are running. Though I wonder have you and another DM gotten together to run a larger game for two groups. I.E a crossover game type thing? Is there any interaction at all between the different groups? I am just curious.
GothicDan 11-19-06, 03:05 PM	I do physics too. Probably not a good sign. And yet you think that trying to understand everything in the Realms will make your head explode!? *Scoff* I'm baffled! ;) You're putting up a bad image! We're all Einsteins, remember? *Wishful.*
GothicDan 11-19-06, 03:07 PM	Anyway, as an example of 'how I roll' in games... I'm currently working on running a WoD London game set in the Modern times. To do so, I've been investigating the history of ALL of the UK, from as far back as I can possibly find (Pre-Roman, Celtic, pre-Gaulish, etc.), and then reading every WoD I can find that mentions anything about the UK. I'm arranging notes on the entire state of the UK, with all supernatural groups. Overkill? Maybe. But that's how I do it.
BrianCritchley 11-19-06, 06:29 PM	Anyway, as an example of 'how I roll' in games... I'm currently working on running a WoD London game set in the Modern times. To do so, I've been investigating the history of ALL of the UK, from as far back as I can possibly find (Pre-Roman, Celtic, pre-Gaulish, etc.), and then reading every WoD I can find that mentions anything about the UK. I'm arranging notes on the entire state of the UK, with all supernatural groups. Overkill? Maybe. But that's how I do it. well yes but what's zimbabwa doing at the same time? :)
BadCatMan 11-19-06, 09:10 PM	Wasn't critizing as much as pointing out there lots of different ways to treat the Realms. It sounds interesting. Never played online but the set up you have makes sense for the what you are running. Though I wonder have you and another DM gotten together to run a larger game for two groups. I.E a crossover game type thing? Is there any interaction at all between the different groups? I am just curious. There's a Pirates & Hunters game running up and down the Sword Coast. One group were Pirates, the other were Hunters (in much the same manner as Captain Deudermont from the Drizzt books). But DM loss messed it up for a while. The Sword Coast South and Amn regions were combined for a while when a DM and some players went missing. Then some more players were brought in for the big finale, and later the regions will split apart again. We ran separate groups through the final dungeon, then rejoined them for the final battle. I was co-DMing (out of three DMs!), though the other two became too busy, and I got left running the mega-finale for two parties. (At the same time as my other game's big finale. Whew!) So Player and DM loss (a big problem in online RP), busy-ness or sickness tend to mess things up, plus it's a big logistical hassle. And the DMs also play in each-other's regions, thus limiting the options. But players can transfer from one region to another for various reasons, and they can hear news of events in other parts of Faerun. If anyone's interested, go to RPOL (www.rpol.net) and look for Realms Of Adventure, RoA. Say BadCatMan sent you. (plug plug)
johnkretzer 11-20-06, 12:18 AM	There's a Pirates & Hunters game running up and down the Sword Coast. One group were Pirates, the other were Hunters (in much the same manner as Captain Deudermont from the Drizzt books). But DM loss messed it up for a while. The Sword Coast South and Amn regions were combined for a while when a DM and some players went missing. Then some more players were brought in for the big finale, and later the regions will split apart again. We ran separate groups through the final dungeon, then rejoined them for the final battle. I was co-DMing (out of three DMs!), though the other two became too busy, and I got left running the mega-finale for two parties. (At the same time as my other game's big finale. Whew!) So Player and DM loss (a big problem in online RP), busy-ness or sickness tend to mess things up, plus it's a big logistical hassle. And the DMs also play in each-other's regions, thus limiting the options. But players can transfer from one region to another for various reasons, and they can hear news of events in other parts of Faerun. If anyone's interested, go to RPOL (www.rpol.net) and look for Realms Of Adventure, RoA. Say BadCatMan sent you. (plug plug) Yeah it can get messy. I once ran a game with 3 other DMs and we could actualy talk face to face with each other and we still had issues( Why is a 12th party saving a god sigh it is over now relax). Anyway I might check it out if I have the time if you could PM me the link that would be great.
GothicDan 11-21-06, 10:40 AM	well yes but what's zimbabwa doing at the same time? If a character sought out information for it, you can bet I'd have some ready. (I've been toying with ideas of an Amadu-Simba incursion into it, perhaps conflicting with immigrant Bagheera. Then there's the Mokole, of course.)