Post/Author/DateTime	Post
18DELTA 10-06-07, 01:37 AM	Well Richard posted this blog today (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14002775#post14002775). ;)
BarothChissthoom 10-06-07, 04:06 AM	Again, the staff is missing the point. I do not want to hear him say that he is sorry for the changes he did, nor do I want him to defend his changes. The things I want to know in this case are logical and coherent reasons why they do change the setting in such drastic ways, because the reasons so far given simply make no sense. Moreover, I want be given logical and coherent reasons why they use events and actions in the realms that do not make sense at all and why they ignore certain things in the realms (logic, Ao, etc). Yes, there is a lot of "I want [...]" in this post, but as a current customer, who bought a lot of v.3.5 and FR material, and a possible future customer of WotC products it would be more than fair to actually answer such questions. If WotC did the changes for purely marketing/business reasons, then they should say so. It is only natural for a company to try to make more money, but do NOT try to tell me (and all the others) that you change the setting in and for some abitrary, illogical and incoherent reasons.
Charles Phipps 10-06-07, 04:57 AM	Their answer is pretty damn simple. Let's try and acknowledge that the "obviousness" is anything but. They thought it would make a better setting.
Suin Bahhar 10-06-07, 08:42 AM	The realms are to be changed drasticly, but I wont write away the chance of having a well thoughtout and true to existing lore version of the realms by august 2008. I only hope this ominous feeling I get goes away soon. I also cant believe the realms will be moved a century into the future, just so every wizard will be adapted and have traditions of casting to learn. Most mechanical adaptations should preferably be invisible to the people of the realms.
GothicDan 10-06-07, 09:37 AM	As I said: the war is over. We lose. Those who truly love the Realms as we know them can keep them alive in our hearts. To some of us, they were already dead. Hail Ed. ;)
18DELTA 10-06-07, 03:23 PM	Yes all Hail Ed!;)
The Ubbergeek 10-06-07, 04:21 PM	As I said: the war is over. We lose. Those who truly love the Realms as we know them can keep them alive in our hearts. To some of us, they were already dead. Hail Ed. ;) Maybe the ones like me who are not deadset against the changes ALSO love the REalms? Like the ones who have critics against some aspect like the uber npc? It's amusing how it is - 'you must love everything' or you are not a fan.
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 04:47 PM	Maybe the ones like me who are not deadset against the changes ALSO love the REalms? Like the ones who have critics against some aspect like the uber npc? It's amusing how it is - 'you must love everything' or you are not a fan. You are such a Gygaxian.
Mr_Miscellany 10-06-07, 04:57 PM	"Go Rockies!" Ahem. :embarrass (Unabashed Rockies fan) I'd like Rich to answer why they repeated some of the same actions (I'd call them mistakes) TSR made back in the early 90's with the Time of Troubles. That is, while it's probably unlikely most Realms fans nowadays aren't old enough to remember the ToT, it remains true WotC is following the same ToT path TSR did, by: Having divine-instigated actions bleed into Faerūn with catastrophic results. Killing Mystra. Giving new life to the ToT plot points that should be dead and buried. Now I'm schooled enough in the Realms to know that when the game edition of D&D changes so must the Realms, but even I am dissapointed by WotC's decision to go balls-out with a run-the-bull-through-the-china-shop of all existing customer's Realms campaigns approach. :nonono: :::::::::::::::::::: Outside the OP's topic (sorry for the slight derailment, 18DELTA): It's amusing how it is - 'you must love everything' or you are not a fan. You'll find similar divisions throughout the fan base, but on interactive forums other than this one. For example, there is a very small minority on the Realms-L mailling list that believe the Realms "died" with 3E, because it was somehow enslaved to 3E rules and Steven Schend was "kicked off" of the writing team and no longer produces the kind of Realms sourcebooks that will "...be long remembered after Third Edition has come and gone." It's sad that Realms fans have to create such false divisions, base them on faulty assumptions and further divide the Realms community. It's especially annoying when some fans do this, but in ways that imply they're speaking for *all* Realms fans. It's excruciatingly annoying when some of those same Realms fans do this, but were themselves barely old enough to hit puberty when 2E was fading and 3E came about and so can't possibly speak with the same authority as those of us who are old enough to have bought the Old Grey Box when it first came out.
HVulpes 10-06-07, 09:49 PM	Well, it looks like Rich and the guys are in a darned if you do, danged if you don't situation. Some people, who get very vocal, hated the ToT RSE in 2ed. Some people, who are also vocal, hated the way they just said it was always this way in 3ed. So if they have a big event where they explain all of the changes, they screwed it up. Yet if they have no event at all, they also screwed it up. Just a little point. So far, we just have to wait and see. As long as Rich keeps speaking we might see what this realms rebirth might look like. Remember we are just getting vague outlines and hints, not the full story behind everything. Let's just see what the Brain Probe can pull out of Rich before we judge. Of course if he eliminate Finder Wyvernspur and his Church, out come the dark magic! :P
MerrikCale 10-06-07, 10:02 PM	Its obvious that Mr. Baker either does not understand the criticism or is lying when he said he's seen it. No one objects to the conversion of FR into 4e. I have not really seen anyone upset by that. They are upset about the way its done and, to me by far the worst possible offense, the potential leap of decades. Maybe someday he'll get it.
MerrikCale 10-06-07, 10:05 PM	Well, it looks like Rich and the guys are in a darned if you do, danged if you don't situation. I agree with the lets wait to see what we get. But the rumors are not encouraging to most FR fans. It was not a damned if you do damned if you don't sceanrio. If the only thing they did was kill Mystra, a few of her chose, throw in the Spellplague, and the Shar stuff leap ahead 7 or 8 years. You wouldn't get nearly the bashing you're seeing.
Dark Wizard 10-06-07, 10:42 PM	I hope the changes will not end up having the opposite effect they're aiming for. Every RSE increased the perception of problems with Mystra, the Chosen, high level NPCs, and the meddling and odd behavior of gods. Based on precedent a RSE with the wide-scale of the Spellplague might help further solidify the negative image of the Realms amongst the very players WotC hopes to gain with the changes. Some players who hold a negative perception of the Realms may not be able to see the difference, after all the Spellplague is similar to the ToT in that it's a big magical incident that involved strife and killing amongst the gods the end result being uncontrolled magical disasters left all across the continent (wild magic/dead magic of ToT vs. Spellplague's blue fire skies, mutable world and death or insane spellcasters). The designers are correct in that major RSEs are a tradition of the Realms, especially rules transitions (one tradition I think they should change if not break). To some it may seem like more of the same. More importantly the designers have gone out of their way to admit and promote that such problems infested the Realms. The Spellplague is a proposed fix for it, but these things have a funny habit of not sticking in peoples minds as much as official statements from the game designers. The message of the problem prone Realms might stick around far longer than the Spellplague. Even if the 4E transitions solves all of the problems, there will still be this negative perception of the Realms. Players will know the designers confirmed it, it got so bad they had to use a major events to wipe the problems away, which is the ultimate justification of the setting as flawed. It might irreversibly associate the Realms with the perceived problems whether or not the designers fixed them, whether or not it exists.
Markustay 10-06-07, 11:25 PM	I would have to agree with all of that, and only have this to add - I don't think the designers actually know what was wrong with the Realms. They have created this 'false vision', if you will, based on their own limited 'tunnel vision'. They cannot help but see the Realms from THEIR side - the marketing/sales figures sides. We, on the other hand, have a totally different way of looking at the Realms. 1) Drizzt, Elminster, and the logo are the only things we have been promised will still be in 4e, yet Drizzt and Elminster are two of the most oft-complained about NPCs. 2) Nearly everyone hated the ToT, and the stupid way gods were portrayed, yet they use another ToT to create the Spellplague. Whats worse, they've hinted this one had it's roots in the first one. 3) The next most-hated thing people complained about is all the RSEs, yet we are hit with a century-long RSE. Perhaps RSE no longer applies, more like a RDE (Realms Destroying Event). So the way to bring in more players is to continue force-feeding us all the things we complain about? I have 156 IQ (not bragging, just stating a fact), and I have NO CLUE what they must be thinking when making these bizarre decisions. I'm sure they make sense to them, but they don't make sense to us, or at least me. Whatever, I will buy the 4e FRCS just to see what they've gone and done - I won't just hate it for no reason. I just hope for all our sakes it's the greatest piece of literature since the dawn of time.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-07-07, 01:26 AM	Maybe the ones like me who are not deadset against the changes ALSO love the REalms? Like the ones who have critics against some aspect like the uber npc? No, you don't. Sorry to break the news to you.:P It's amusing how it is - 'you must love everything' or you are not a fan. :rofl: I'm laughing because there was a debate about this (sort of) in the "James Wyatt blog" thread...although with quite a different spin on it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-07-07, 01:31 AM	If it was my goal to avoid criticism, here's what I would do: I'd tell you that I've decided to adopt every suggestion offered by folks currently expressing their dissatisfaction. I'd say that it's going to take a couple of months for me to go back and scrap existingRealms 4e work, so I won't be able to divulge details for quite a while while I try to atone for my stupidity. Boy, is this thread a laugh-fest!:heehee (Why on earth would we go to the trouble of addressing the problems we perceive with Mystra, only to put another goddess in her place? I'd ask 'How dumb do you think we are?' except I've got a fair idea what the answer would be.) *whoops with more laughter!*:rofl:
Andyr 10-07-07, 09:04 AM	I think if they posted more about the changes being made to the Realms, rather than leaving us to inflated speculation from the tidbits we've got, then fans would be able to get used to the new Realms more rapidly and feedback would probably be more positive. I think that a lack of information (and too much time for us to over-analyse it) is behind a lot of the apparant anger. Of course, I guess with a year between announcement and release they probably can't tell us too much, as it may not all be set in stone. But even answers to some basic questions (e.g. particularly the new year of the setting, but also the merging of two worlds and what happens to magic) which they must have sorted out by now would be helpful.
White_Wizard 10-07-07, 11:40 AM	Rich said true thing: one must say the truth, even when it is unpleasant. And it is also very true that the Realms must match 4th Edition rules. So I have a question for him: was it impossible to make the Realms like they were in 4th Edition? Do 4th edition rules state that the Realms must go through a world shaking event (or, as someone said, a world destroying event)? Just wondering. [Druss-Mode]Wars aren't lost until wars are lost, just keep going on.[/Druss- Mode]
Markustay 10-07-07, 12:56 PM	It is obvious that huge changes to the Realms were unnecessary, and they are using 4e as an excuse to remake FR in their own image. It will probably look like Birthright. :yuck: Think about, the guy who designed the worst setting ever is now re-making FR. Who makes decisions over at Hasbro? You create a dismal failure, and are put in charge of one of the company's most lucrative properties? Whatever, it's not my company. :bored: Anyhow, FR is more of a traditional 'High Fantasy' setting then Eberron, and therefore it is 'generic' enough to be easily shoe-horned into any set of rules, despite its vast wealth of lore. Mystra's Weave even facilitates huge changes to magic, which we've been told was the main reason for destroying the setting. Eberron is non-traditional, and even a bit 'quirky' where certain things are concerned. The new cosmology can NOT be fitted into Eberron as far as I can tell, and Dragonmarks are a specialized magical tradition - things that should make Eberron harder to convert. In fact, I think thats why they decided to do the Realms first - it's a an easier conversion and they don't want to use Eberron as the 4e guinea pig. If Eberron is going to be converted to 4e so easily without changes or a timeline shift, then the same should have been possible for FR. In fact, FR was barely changed between 2e and 3e, and the rules changes were even greater from what we've seen so far. 2e was completely taken apart and 3e was something entirely new and different, yet the setting survived it and came out intact. 4e is going to be D20, and all of the new rule systems will be based on innovations to THAT system. Yet we are told we need a NEW setting to accomodate the rules. WE don't need it, they just WANT it. I don't mind change at all - it's lies I can't tolerate. :mad:
18DELTA 10-07-07, 01:52 PM	Qft, who know maybe the Shadow Fell is more like the Birthright Plane of Shadow.:rolleyes: That like the only thing I remember about that setting. What else will be imported from Birthright into our friendly neighborhood Realms?;) :P
Markustay 10-07-07, 02:34 PM	The ONLY thing I liked about Birthright was its coverage of the Fey - something we are apparently seeing in 4e FR. The times, they are a-changin'. :bored: I believe the Birthright Faerie book is available as a free download here at WotC, and its pretty good, BTW. Birthright is the ONLY TSR setting that I NEVER made a single purchase in. I even bought some DL books, even though I didn't like it that much. The premise of BR was just too over-the-top - Uber-powerful NPCs running everything sounds too familiar with some complaints I've heard lately. :rolleyes: At least we know what world FR is merging with, now. ;)
The Ubbergeek 10-07-07, 02:36 PM	No, you don't. Sorry to break the news to you.:P :rofl: I'm laughing because there was a debate about this (sort of) in the "James Wyatt blog" thread...although with quite a different spin on it. You proved my point - the menace come (also) from an highly elitist and vocal minority of fans called the grognards coloquialy. They had an hand in the death of GH, they may very well slay ALL of D&D one day if not thinkered with. If only because they mock and look with haughtyness at the other fans, they are a problem already. I love the Realms as much as anyone else, I will NOT sit happy if it become Greyhawkified.
MerrikCale 10-07-07, 03:27 PM	I think if they posted more about the changes being made to the Realms, rather than leaving us to inflated speculation from the tidbits we've got, then fans would be able to get used to the new Realms more rapidly and feedback would probably be more positive. There's probably some truth to that. I suppose they initially thought that suprise would add suspense instead its only adding angst
Dark Wizard 10-07-07, 03:29 PM	What the heck is up with you and Greyhawk? Did a Greyhawk "grognard" defecate in your lunch one day and made you think those were just dessert brownies? Maybe, just maybe, the Greyhawk changes turned out not so great and then the setting really couldn't maintain a (economically) viable following. Economic reasons is the main reason for anything in an RPG company trying to run a successful business. If the designers now don't warrant the "grognard" outcry as significant to even mildly change their plans what made you think the grognards of Greyhawk's final years had any significant effect on that setting? What makes you think the vocal minority mattered or that the non-vocal majority didn't have a bigger say in things? Your conjecture is just as much, if not more, hearsay and wild speculation, now almost 20 years old, as the opponents to the new Realms changes. If anyone is beating a dead horse of a setting it's you. Why are you putting down one set of fans in order to put down yet another set of fans. If there is anyone contributing greatly to the negativity and widening the differences between all sides it's your incessant cries of grognardism and Greyhawkism. Maybe you should take your mentions of Greyhawk over to the Greyhawk forums and find out.
Ramenth 10-07-07, 03:38 PM	Maybe the ones like me who are not deadset against the changes ALSO love the REalms? Like the ones who have critics against some aspect like the uber npc? It's amusing how it is - 'you must love everything' or you are not a fan. Yeah, because to kill off the Uber NPCs requires the shift from the current realms to a Points of Light setting? Its not like we don't have elventrillion points of light settings as it is. We don't need another one. The Forgotten Realms was unique in that it had an increadible level of detail and wasnt a blasted wasteland. Now its a blasted wasteland too. Edit: I'm perfectly willing to accept these changes when we know more about them; but based on what we know at this point, they sound like a horrible mistake. You want us to stop thinking that? Then stop keeping us in suspence. Maybe you've got these great ideas for how things will work out; but untill you tell us them we can only work with what we know; and what we know is 'Oh crap world over'.
Suin Bahhar 10-07-07, 05:06 PM	The points of light concept will not be applied to the realms as far as I know. This is the biggest assumption made by most. The GHotR states a terrible beginning of the new realms though... but the realms has dark and gloomy places even before the spellplague.
Faraer 10-07-07, 05:10 PM	I love the Realms as much as anyone else, I will NOT sit happy if it become Greyhawkified.I don't know what you mean by these allusions, and I'm sure people unfamiliar with the publishing history of the World of Greyhawk don't. I suggest you explain what you think happened, if you want us to understand these references.The points of light concept will not be applied to the realms as far as I know.Rich has said it won't be applied uniformly. The Orc King strongly suggests it'll be used more than in the present Realms. Beyond that's speculation.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 05:23 PM	You proved my point - the menace come (also) from an highly elitist and vocal minority of fans called the grognards coloquialy. They had an hand in the death of GH, they may very well slay ALL of D&D one day if not thinkered with. If only because they mock and look with haughtyness at the other fans, they are a problem already. I love the Realms as much as anyone else, I will NOT sit happy if it become Greyhawkified. So what do you love about the Realms?
Charles Phipps 10-07-07, 06:50 PM	1) Drizzt, Elminster, and the logo are the only things we have been promised will still be in 4e, yet Drizzt and Elminster are two of the most oft-complained about NPCs. And Drizzt and El also bring in the $$$. 2) Nearly everyone hated the ToT, and the stupid way gods were portrayed, yet they use another ToT to create the Spellplague. Whats worse, they've hinted this one had it's roots in the first one. I never played Forgotten Realms before the TOT. I wouldn't have either. The TOT was what made FR unique. The gods are selfish, egotistical, and immoral :censored: in FR. PCs have a chance of killing, tricking, or crushing them. It's what makes me keep coming back. 3) The next most-hated thing people complained about is all the RSEs, yet we are hit with a century-long RSE. Perhaps RSE no longer applies, more like a RDE (Realms Destroying Event). We actually are starting up a new campaign because the Great Skip has us all psyched up.
MerrikCale 10-07-07, 09:09 PM	I never played Forgotten Realms before the TOT. I wouldn't have either. The TOT was what made FR unique. The gods are selfish, egotistical, and immoral :censored: in FR. PCs have a chance of killing, tricking, or crushing them. They were like that before ToT. To me, ToT wasn't a bad idea, it just wasn't executed properly. All of this stuff now just seems like a terrible terrible idea.
Charles Phipps 10-07-07, 10:16 PM	They were like that before ToT. To me, ToT wasn't a bad idea, it just wasn't executed properly. All of this stuff now just seems like a terrible terrible idea. True, but the TOT allowed the player characters to interact with the gods (however briefly) on an equal footing at relatively low levels. It provided years of RL fun in the fact that my players knew the gods owed them some favors (or some of them did)
Mr_Miscellany 10-07-07, 10:56 PM	It is obvious that huge changes to the Realms were unnecessary, and they are using 4e as an excuse to remake FR in their own image. Sorry Markus. The only things that are obvious are that you don't own any 4E products, so you can't possibly know how necessary or unnecessary the changes actually are. Think about, the guy who designed the worst setting ever is now re-making FR. Who makes decisions over at Hasbro? You create a dismal failure, and are put in charge of one of the company's most lucrative properties? Where did you come up with this? Baker's not in charge of re-making the Realms, he's part of a group of novel writers and designers that are doing the deed. The only difference betwixt him and the rest is that he's opening himself up to the worst the online Realms community has to offer in terms of responses, by daring to interact with them here and on the Realms-L list. ::::::::::: Not pointed at Markus: I wish Sean Reynolds were around to tackle the real stupid responses like he was back when 3E came out. That guy had a way of taking people to task for their assumptions that straght up put them in their place. :rolleyes: ::::::::::::::::::: The new cosmology can NOT be fitted into Eberron as far as I can tell, and Dragonmarks are a specialized magical tradition - things that should make Eberron harder to convert. All this says is you need to brush up on your Eberron reading. Ebberon's cosmology will fit quite easily into the Astral Sea...the planes of the gods and the realms of the Quori (and worse) drifting to and fro in proximity to Eberron....just as they do now already. Dragonmarks....what's the problem? The 4E game already talks about classes getting abilities they can use a limited number of times per day. Dragonmarks do the exact same thing. In fact, I think thats why they decided to do the Realms first - it's a an easier conversion and they don't want to use Eberron as the 4e guinea pig. This conclusion doesn't follow because your claims above are invalid. In fact, FR was barely changed between 2e and 3e, and the rules changes were even greater from what we've seen so far. Barely? I can't imagine anyone gaming during that era feeling as though the realms were "barely" changed at all. I agree that much of it could be ignored after the fact, but there was no campaign I participated in or knew of second hand that wasn't touched by those events. Fact: Campaigns being affected by setting changes are the true measure of any RSE. By that measure, the transition from 1E to 2E was a monster. This is also why current RSEs (pre-spellplauge) are actually quite wimpy. WE don't need it, they just WANT it. I don't mind change at all - it's lies I can't tolerate. C'mon Markus. Stop writing stream of conscious and just think first. We need to wait and see just a wee bit more, I think.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 11:13 PM	Sorry Markus. The only things that are obvious are that you don't own any 4E products, so you can't possibly know how necessary or unnecessary the changes actually are. Again you people are missing the point completely. We aren't complaining about what will happen, but what has happen. Did you read the last two years in the GHotR? Also I got to say if the mechanics of 4th edition have to require this amount of change then I doubt the mechanics are all that good. I mean atleast before this we had mechanic that wre flexable enough to fit the setting.
Mr_Miscellany 10-07-07, 11:23 PM	Again you people are missing the point completely. We aren't complaining about what will happen, but what has happen. Did you read the last two years in the GHotR? And did you read Markus' post? He said, "It is obvious that huge changes to the Realms were unnecessary, and they are using 4e as an excuse to remake FR in their own image." He can't say that because he doesn't own 4E products. He doesn't know the details of what's in store. The only thing he (we) can be sure of is that it begs the question why Eberron appears to be going untouched, while the Realms is going to go through the ringer, in response to the edition change. Also I got to say if the mechanics of 4th edition have to require this amount of change then I doubt the mechanics are all that good. I mean atleast before this we had mechanic that wre flexable enough to fit the setting. We'll see. We'll see.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 11:40 PM	And did you read Markus' post? He said, "It is obvious that huge changes to the Realms were unnecessary, and they are using 4e as an excuse to remake FR in their own image." He can't say that because he doesn't own 4E products. He doesn't know the details of what's in store. The only thing he (we) can be sure of is that it begs the question why Eberron appears to be going untouched, while the Realms is going to go through the ringer, in response to the edition change. We'll see. We'll see. Actualy Mr. Baker said that the reason why the Weave had to go away was to explain the new Magic System. He had other reasons that I thought weren't good reasons. Either having to do with making life easier for novelist( which is funny considering it was those same novelist that caused the problems in the first place.) Or the way bad DMs deal with stuff.
MerrikCale 10-07-07, 11:41 PM	He can't say that because he doesn't own 4E products. He doesn't know the details of what's in store. sure he can, because he's complaining about the changes that have occurred
Mr_Miscellany 10-07-07, 11:52 PM	sure he can, because he's complaining about the changes that have occurredNoooooooooo...... How can he when he has no 4E core rulebooks, much less the 4E FRCS in his hands to provide context?
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 12:09 AM	Noooooooooo...... How can he when he has no 4E core rulebooks, much less the 4E FRCS in his hands to provide context? We are talking about the events in the GHotR and the Orc King which is in our hands and according to Mr. Baker these changes are happening to make it easier to translate the Realms to 4th edition....heck the Orc King is the first book in a series called Trasitions.
Dark Wizard 10-08-07, 12:09 AM	The only thing he (we) can be sure of is that it begs the question why Eberron appears to be going untouched, while the Realms is going to go through the ringer, in response to the edition change. That is true. The contrast between how the Realms had the big announcement in a published sourcebook that locked the changes in place without hope for any significant shift or further discussion, while Eberron had a wait and see approach raises fan ire higher. Also another big question is why fans should look hopeful towards the changes of 4E when the hints found in GHotR (and Orc King) were worded so dramatically and in a way very gloomily. Also I got to say if the mechanics of 4th edition have to require this amount of change then I doubt the mechanics are all that good. I mean atleast before this we had mechanic that wre flexable enough to fit the setting. I think this is one thing that is a conscious decision on the part of WotC rather than a reflection of the rules themselves.
msatran 10-08-07, 02:06 AM	Yeah. It looks like I'll be taking ex-lax with my 4e Realms. The problem is this whole thing seems like a blatant slap in the face to me. It just does.
Charles Phipps 10-08-07, 02:19 AM	Yeah. It looks like I'll be taking ex-lax with my 4e Realms. The problem is this whole thing seems like a blatant slap in the face to me. It just does. Because they decided to make the realms more dangerous?
Dark Wizard 10-08-07, 02:23 AM	Far from dangerous in my opinion, just more random, very random, which is neither here or there until we get more. :: hint, hint, wink, wink WotC ::
White_Wizard 10-08-07, 06:28 AM	I'd like to point out that I don't mean any offence toward you. If my words sound rude, I apologize: english is not my first language and it has already happened that I unwillingly offended someone. It is not my wish to offend you. :) Barely? I can't imagine anyone gaming during that era feeling as though the realms were "barely" changed at all. I agree that much of it could be ignored after the fact, but there was no campaign I participated in or knew of second hand that wasn't touched by those events. Fact: Campaigns being affected by setting changes are the true measure of any RSE. By that measure, the transition from 1E to 2E was a monster. This is also why current RSEs (pre-spellplauge) are actually quite wimpy. Well, changes in FR between AD&D 2nd edition and the 3.0 FRCS were actually great ones (return of Bane, flying city of Shade, destruction of Tilverton). But any campaign could have been easily played without even considering them, that's what makes the Realms so playable: almost any player can ejoy them without being forced to follow the CS like a Holy-BibleTM. Until now, at least. In 3.0 you wanted a moonsea campaign without falling with the Banites? Well, Mulmaster was there just for this. Anauroch based campaign without even seeing Shade in the distance? Well, Anauroch is vast and Shade floated over the easter border, so just stay west. And what for Tilverton? Well, it's a small hole in Cormyr. Tricky if your PCs had their home there in previous edition, but that could be easily fixed (hey, I feel that this place is safe no more! Let's everybody go to Arabel. -and the day after that Tilverton was a hole in the ground. Poor Tilverton.) Also the pantheon system wasn't that different. I think that fixes were pretty much easily done and of no great concern, at the time. We need to wait and see just a wee bit more, I think. That's right. I only wish they weren't so shut about it, when it's clearily a good part of fans asking for better explainations: they keep saying "Trust us... trust us... But after all it's what the Hag told to Snowwhite while giving her the apple..." They should consider to give more than a hint on the changes. Waiting until the 4E will come out could be too late for many fans.
Stigger 10-08-07, 07:05 AM	So if one's arm is turning green after getting a lovely injury, one shouldn't just presume one has gangrene, and really should wait until they see the cleric to confirm that something is wrong then... seems about the brunt of the logic you're using there Mr. M... you can look at the events described and see the explanation offered that it's mechanical ultimately, and it's not that hard of a stretch to think that you're being fed a load of BS if some supposedly improved ruleset requires taking not the pruning shears, but the tactical nukes to a setting...
Flecha 10-08-07, 10:30 AM	It's amusing how it is - 'you must love everything' or you are not a fan. Like, love everything new they will do just because it has written Forgotten Realms in the cover, even if it's contrary in lettert and spirit to everything we've seen and loved until now, or you are not a fan?
Flecha 10-08-07, 10:47 AM	It's sad that Realms fans have to create such false divisions, base them on faulty assumptions and further divide the Realms community. It's especially annoying when some fans do this, but in ways that imply they're speaking for *all* Realms fans. It's excruciatingly annoying when some of those same Realms fans do this, but were themselves barely old enough to hit puberty when 2E was fading and 3E came about and so can't possibly speak with the same authority as those of us who are old enough to have bought the Old Grey Box when it first came out. I guess you're dividing fans between those older (in Realms fandom) to "have authority", and those who don't... :) Anyway, I'm with you in part, I believe that those who've experienced the Realms for longer editions, have a bigger perspective of what the Realms really are, can argue about what is going to happen, and the most important, should be heard the most. As I have pointed many times by now, Wizards is more concerned in acquiring new fans between the playstation-obsessed teens than preserving old ones, making the Realms more atractive for those desired customers, completely changing the setting into something those people would like. Change is good; a good world-shaking event is always interesting and fun. But if they change everything into a different world, then it's a different world. And preventing that is easier in the Realms than anywhere else, due to the massive fandom out there. Damn, just watch how the forums everywhere are burning since the changes were announced! I guess they won't change back what they've designed, but almost they should, from now on, "walk the path" trying to do everything as true to the Realms as it's possible.
Suin Bahhar 10-08-07, 11:01 AM	What wrong with the "playstation-obsessed" generation then? They can't fully grasp what it is that makes the realms fun? That's BS.
Fire_Wraith 10-08-07, 11:05 AM	I'll be happy to live with changes, even relatively major ones, as long as I can feel like the concerns of the long-time fans are being taken into account, and that we're at least part of the process. I think what is bothering a number of people is that they feel as if the design team is primarily attempting to address the concerns of the 'Realms Detractors', but without taking the concerns of the fans of the Realms. As a result, many people seem to feel they are being left out in the cold. At least, that's the impression I get from glancing at these forums. Personally, I think it doesn't have to be this way. I think we can manage to achieve the stated goals of the designers, yet without leaving the majority of the core fans 'burned'. The way things go back and forth on the forums here, especially with emotions being thrown into posts, I don't know just how plausible achieving that sort of outcome really is... but I suppose we'll see.
GothicDan 10-08-07, 11:05 AM	I think there's a lot more to it than video games, but the fact that video games currently are a past time so much more prevalent than, say, reading, talking to each other, sharing ideas, and the like, is somewhat indicative of a general cultural change. But cultures shift all the time, as the years go on. Things come in and out of vogue.
Flecha 10-08-07, 12:16 PM	I think there's a lot more to it than video games, but the fact that video games currently are a past time so much more prevalent than, say, reading, talking to each other, sharing ideas, and the like, is somewhat indicative of a general cultural change. Thanks for clarify me. :) Yes, I verbally abuse of playstation teenage players. But it's so good an Icon of our minless times... Don't worry, next time I'll use Wii players for my biased comments. But cultures shift all the time, as the years go on. Things come in and out of vogue. Yes, it's the laws of History. Sometimes things go for the better, sometimes for the worst. We just happen to be living a long way down, I guess.
Alediran 10-08-07, 12:20 PM	Thanks for clarify me. :) Yes, I verbally abuse of playstation teenage players. But it's so good an Icon of our minless times... Don't worry, next time I'll use Wii players for my biased comments. PC games are far better that playstation/wii/etc games. :cool:
Mula 10-08-07, 12:30 PM	I think there's a lot more to it than video games, but the fact that video games currently are a past time so much more prevalent than, say, reading, talking to each other, sharing ideas, and the like, is somewhat indicative of a general cultural change.Yeah, stuff like MySpace and Facebook and instant messaging is really unpopular... Heh, are you seriously claiming that sharing ideas is less prevalent today than, say, 20 years ago...? I mean, look at what we're doing... and from where.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 03:38 PM	You proved my point - the menace come (also) from an highly elitist and vocal minority of fans called the grognards coloquialy. By you. I don't use that silly term. Anyway, can't you take a joke? I was only yanking your chain. :P You get all indignant about this stuff, which makes you a perfect target. :rofl:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 03:46 PM	He said, "It is obvious that huge changes to the Realms were unnecessary, and they are using 4e as an excuse to remake FR in their own image." He can't say that because he doesn't own 4E products. He doesn't know the details of what's in store. I can't speak for everyone about whether or not these new changes are "unnecessary", but I CAN speak for myself. We already do know some of what will happen, and that is enough for me to decide that those changes are too much for me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 03:52 PM	Yeah, stuff like MySpace and Facebook and instant messaging is really unpopular... Heh, are you seriously claiming that sharing ideas is less prevalent today than, say, 20 years ago...? I mean, look at what we're doing... and from where. I could be wrong, but I think GothicDan meant talking to people in the flesh. I would agree that instant messaging and online contact can't replace physical contact. And that's coming from someone who has plenty of experience with that (except for MySpace, never got into that).
Stigger 10-08-07, 05:03 PM	I fear for the politicians really... how are the future ones supposed to get adept at falsehood and hyperbole on the campaign trail if they're all doing it from behind the safety of a computer screen... :(
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 05:39 PM	Because they decided to make the realms more dangerous? Um...playing in msatran game for 8+ years now...I really don't want the Realms to get anymore dangerous....making that many new characters isn't fun...;) Also with the um new rules changes of 4th edition the game it self is making the PCs alot tougher so I really doubt in a game system where the PCs are suppose to 'win' will there be any actualy danger...just depression.
Bonzai 10-08-07, 06:35 PM	Sigh..... Statements like Richards make me even more uncertain about the fates of the realms. He misses the point entirely. Few people are argueing against new game mechanics and rules in 4.0. What they argue against is all the RSE's and drastic changes that are accompanying it. The only justification I've seen, is that they want all 4.0 campaigns to follow the same rules. To do that, they have to get rid of the weave, the shadow weave, regional feats, extra dieties, and presumabely realm specific prestige classes. Evidently this is so important to them that they are willing to gut the entire setting. The last sentance in the GHotR's shows their mindset. I don't have it in front of me, but to paraphrase, "Thus came about the end of the realms, and the begining of the new". Even more telling, is the cover of the GHotRs. What is on the cover? Drizzt on the front, and Elminister on the back. It feels like the Novel sales are the only thing keeping them from scrapping the realms entirely. Saddly, a part of me wishes that they had. It would have felt more honest to me if they flat out said, "Guys, the Realms have had a good run, but we would be irrovocably changing them by interrgrating them into 4.0. So instead we are going to no longer support the setting with the new sytem, and focus on a brand new setting that I am sure everyone will enjoy". They won't do that though, and instead they are irrovocably changing the realms, but keeping the best selling characters. It really is getting to a point for me where I have to ask, "What is left for me in the realms"?
Mr_Miscellany 10-08-07, 07:24 PM	I guess you're dividing fans between those older (in Realms fandom) to "have authority", and those who don't... :) Which isn't a 'bad' division. It's common sense. Different generations have different takes on things. I wouldn't want anyone not of my generation to speak for me, you know? I guess they won't change back what they've designed, but almost they should, from now on, "walk the path" trying to do everything as true to the Realms as it's possible. Agreed. Though I'm still holding slim hope WotC hasn't given us the full picture. Mystra may yet live...you never know. ;)
Stigger 10-08-07, 07:58 PM	Sure, she might survive, but not in any form we might recognize from the Realms... recycling Boccob or Wee Jas or <insert some other magic deity's name here> and sticking Mystra's name on it is a little on the disingenuous side of things...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 08:00 PM	The only justification I've seen, is that they want all 4.0 campaigns to follow the same rules. To do that, they have to get rid of the weave, the shadow weave, regional feats, extra dieties, and presumabely realm specific prestige classes. Evidently this is so important to them that they are willing to gut the entire setting. The last sentance in the GHotR's shows their mindset. I don't have it in front of me, but to paraphrase, "Thus came about the end of the realms, and the begining of the new". Correction: "the terrible beginning of the new". Or course, that only proves your point further.;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 08:01 PM	Which isn't a 'bad' division. It's common sense. Different generations have different takes on things. I wouldn't want anyone not of my generation to speak for me, you know? I would, if I liked what they had to say.
Stigger 10-08-07, 08:07 PM	Wisdom and insight aren't exactly exclusive to some arbitrary definition of Generation, tis true...
Gray Richardson 10-08-07, 10:28 PM	Bonzai, while I respect your concerns, I think you might also be missing a point or two. When TSR changed form 1st edition to 2d edition, they introduced a "Realms-Shaking-Event", the Time of Troubles to explain the changes. This got mixed reviews and left a lot of fans in an uproar, saying they didn't like the dramatic changes to the Realms. But then, when WotC introduced the 3rd edition, they did so with no in-game story to explain the changes. The fans were (surprisingly) again in an uproar. Many decried WotC for introducing changes without an in-game explanation, and were mad as heck that WotC took the attitude that "it had always been this way". Well, the pendulum has swung back. For 4th edition, the designers have decided to introduce a story-plot involving an in-game explanation for the rules changes. They have done so for sound reasons. But fans are again in an uproar. People are understandably upset that certain things they like are being changed. But inaction is not really an option. Changes have to be made. And the changes are not being made lightly and are certainly being given thoughtful consideration, even if some people don't like the changes being made. I think the thing to focus on is that this is not the end of the world. It is not really a new Realms. I think if people reflect a bit, they will see, despite the changes, there is plenty of the Realms that is being preserved. I think 95% of the Realms will survive with little or no changes. Just for example, By my rough count there are something like 238 gods in the Realms (depending on how you count). So far they have named about 9 gods (give or take) that they intend to kill. 9 out of 238 gods is only a 3.8% change in the status quo. That means 96.2% of the gods will not be touched (as far as I know). I didn't even factor in the gods of Zakhara or Kara-tur, which would make the percentage even smaller. Who knows? We might see some new divine ascensions in the wake of it all. We could even end up with more gods in time. There are even rumors of Moander and Amaunatar coming back! And that is just one example. If people start counting what is left after the changes, I think they will see that the vast majority of Faerun will still be left standing. Faerun has weathered many RSE's. I am sure it can weather another. ;)
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 10:54 PM	. And that is just one example. If people start counting what is left after the changes, I think they will see that the vast majority of Faerun will still be left standing. Faerun has weathered many RSE's. I am sure it can weather another. ;) Did you even read the last year in the GHotR or the Orc King Prologue?
SgtAnjay 10-09-07, 12:02 AM	But inaction is not really an option. Changes have to be made. And the changes are not being made lightly and are certainly being given thoughtful consideration, even if some people don't like the changes being made.And even if the changes are unneccesary or poorly made. I think the thing to focus on is that this is not the end of the world. It is not really a new Realms. I think if people reflect a bit, they will see, despite the changes, there is plenty of the Realms that is being preserved. I think 95% of the Realms will survive with little or no changes.What do you base these statements on? Not only have I seen nothing to back them up, they contradict both published sources and what WotC has said their intentions are. Just for example, By my rough count there are something like 238 gods in the Realms (depending on how you count). So far they have named about 9 gods (give or take) that they intend to kill. 9 out of 238 gods is only a 3.8% change in the status quo. That means 96.2% of the gods will not be touched (as far as I know). I didn't even factor in the gods of Zakhara or Kara-tur, which would make the percentage even smaller. Who knows? We might see some new divine ascensions in the wake of it all. We could even end up with more gods in time. There are even rumors of Moander and Amaunatar coming back!Well, "intend to kill" is a misnomer at best, and intentionally misleading at worst. They have already started the string of deicides. They have stated shrinking the pantheon is one of their end-goals. They have instituted a catastrophe wherein no deity of less than Greater status is fully safe. There have been rumors of Moander and Amaunator coming back since 2nd edition. And that is just one example. If people start counting what is left after the changes, I think they will see that the vast majority of Faerun will still be left standing. Faerun has weathered many RSE's. I am sure it can weather another. ;)The only RSE's anywhere approaching the scope of this one were both historical lore: The Sundering and Karsus's Folly. And considering the planar nature of Spellplague, I'd say even Karsus's Folly is a distant third in that company, which is ironic since this RSE is a rehash of Karsus's Folly.
Gray Richardson 10-09-07, 12:45 AM	Did you even read the last year in the GHotR or the Orc King Prologue?Yes.
Gray Richardson 10-09-07, 01:11 AM	And even if the changes are unneccesary or poorly made.Of course not. If the changes were unnecessary or poorly made, I might object to them. But since the changes were necessary and, in my opinion, not poorly made, I have no objection. What do you base these statements on? Not only have I seen nothing to back them up, they contradict both published sources and what WotC has said their intentions are.I base them on the fact that I took some math classes in High School. 9 gods killed (Mystra, Savras, a couple drow gods, a couple dwarf gods, a couple duergar gods, and Helm by my count that is 9) divided by 238 gods = 3.78 %. That was an example based on the number of gods killed. If you count the number of changes in political borders, nations, NPC's killed, etc. I think you will find, if you are objective, that the changes, while they may seem dramatic, will still leave a Realms that is much the same as we know it now.Well, "intend to kill" is a misnomer at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.Seriously how do you get that? I counted. They name like 9 gods! if you think I miscounted please let me know and I will acknowledge any error. Why would you impugn me by saying I am trying to mislead people? I am trying to give facts, not opinion. I even did the math for you!They have stated shrinking the pantheon is one of their end-goals.Rich expressed an opinion. I don't remember him stating it was their stated goal. Please link to his exact quote. If I am unaware of some information that has been released, but I simply haven't seen them say anywhere that they are about to embark on a divine serial killing spree. They have instituted a catastrophe wherein no deity of less than Greater status is fully safe.I think you mean plane. I think the quote was that no plane without a Greater Deity to keep it stable was safe. There have been rumors of Moander and Amaunator coming back since 2nd edition.Yes, I agree. I said their were rumors. But the rumors I mentioned were reiterated in very recently published books ;) The only RSE's anywhere approaching the scope of this one were both historical lore: The Sundering and Karsus's Folly. And considering the planar nature of Spellplague, I'd say even Karsus's Folly is a distant third in that company, which is ironic since this RSE is a rehash of Karsus's Folly.Okay. I agree it is a very big RSE. But I think you are underestimating the Time of Troubles. It was also a very big deal. That one saw a lot of deicides as well. Including Mystra and Helm come to think of it... I haven't counted but it may have the highest divine body count of all the RSE's so far. Although the Orcgate Wars is up there too. ;) Seriously, RSE's are a staple of the Realms. In so much as the changes in 4th edition need an explanation as to the change in the magic system, something was required. Spellplague seems like a valid choice to make. Since all we know of it is about a paragraph so far, I am curious to see how they flesh it out. It will all depend on execution. I think they can pull it off. ;)
SgtAnjay 10-09-07, 03:16 AM	Of course not. If the changes were unnecessary or poorly made, I might object to them. But since the changes were necessary and, in my opinion, not poorly made, I have no objection.They were not neccesary. Change to 4th edition does not require apocalypse. As to the changes, I'm of the opinion the Year of Three Streams Blooded is a horrible mess, for reasons I've reiterated a couple times already. Perhaps you could explain to me how it is not? I've asked that in quite a few threads now where people have tried to tell me how wonderful everything is. The Year of Blue Fire itself vindicates nothing but Cyric and Shar as the current pet deities; oh yes, such an improvement over the previous deity too powerful to loose. Oh, and it also uses what is a rehash of the concepts from Karsus's Folly to enact the 3rd to 4th transition. Except much, much more destructive. I base them on the fact that I took some math classes in High School. 9 gods killed (Mystra, Savras, a couple drow gods, a couple dwarf gods, a couple duergar gods, and Helm by my count that is 9) divided by 238 gods = 3.78 %. That was an example based on the number of gods killed. If you count the number of changes in political borders, nations, NPC's killed, etc. I think you will find, if you are objective, that the changes, while they may seem dramatic, will still leave a Realms that is much the same as we know it now.Seriously how do you get that? I counted. They name like 9 gods! if you think I miscounted please let me know and I will acknowledge any error. Why would you impugn me by saying I am trying to mislead people? I am trying to give facts, not opinion. I even did the math for you! Rich expressed an opinion. I don't remember him stating it was their stated goal. Please link to his exact quote. If I am unaware of some information that has been released, but I simply haven't seen them say anywhere that they are about to embark on a divine serial killing spree.Heh, I'm not impugning you, I'm calling you out on your bias; as you feel no remorse calling others out on theirs, I didn't think you'd mind. Call me out on mine (surprise! I dont like alot of what they've put out so far). Also, its quite a stretch to play the "oh noes! you have insulted me" right after a snide remark about high school math classes. Furthermore, Spellplague is the end of the old world and terrible beginning of the new; their words, not mine. How does this possibly translate objectively into a Realms "much the same"? As to statements by Rich about shrinking pantheon, in the wake of a rapid series of deity deaths, and prior to a coming apocalypse wherein the deities themselves are mentioned as threatened, those are just an opinion, but reassurances about how great things are going to be are fact? Sorry, that doesn't play. I think you mean plane. I think the quote was that no plane without a Greater Deity to keep it stable was safe.I know what I mean. For one, it didn't mention no plane without a Greater Deity was safe, it mentioned many planes are shifted or destroyed. All Greater Deities could do was save their divine realms; I know you know the realms and the planes are two different things. So even a deity on a plane with a Greater Deity isn't safe, unless they could get to the Greater Deity's realm on that plane before the apocalypse did to them what it did to Savras, or Azuth and Velsharoon. And again.....its all about context. Shrinking pantheons and dead deities have been very prevalent of late. Rich's statements dont abate that context in the slightest. And nothing WotC has released has mentioned anything but deaths and destruction. Yes, I agree. I said their were rumors. But the rumors I mentioned were reiterated in very recently published booksI personally hope something comes of them, but then again, there are hordes of dangling plothooks old and new out there. The Realms has never been short of them. Whatever happens, though, I'm betting Cyric or Shar will win. Possibly both. :P Okay. I agree it is a very big RSE. But I think you are underestimating the Time of Troubles. It was also a very big deal. That one saw a lot of deicides as well. Including Mystra and Helm come to think of it... I haven't counted but it may have the highest divine body count of all the RSE's so far. Although the Orcgate Wars is up there too.And yet neither one of those events heralded the end of the old world and terrible beginning of the new. That doesn't bode well for the final casualty count of this even. But its about more than deity deaths; deity deaths are but a symptom. Seriously, RSE's are a staple of the Realms. In so much as the changes in 4th edition need an explanation as to the change in the magic system, something was required. Spellplague seems like a valid choice to make. Since all we know of it is about a paragraph so far, I am curious to see how they flesh it out. It will all depend on execution. I think they can pull it off.Its obvious an event of this magnitude is not neccesary for conversion to 4th ed since the Realms is the only setting going through trauma for it. I've got rather mixed feelings about events I've seen so far (which is more than a paragraph, but thank you for trying to minimize it), but rest assured I await with baited breath the execution when fleshing out the more vague events the've previed. The potential for greatness is there despite all the destruction they've decided to embrace.
johnkretzer 10-09-07, 03:23 AM	Yes. And you still have no problems with Mystra's death and the reasons that are given for these changes?
Gray Richardson 10-09-07, 03:40 AM	And you still have no problems with Mystra's death and the reasons that are given for these changes?No.
johnkretzer 10-09-07, 03:59 AM	No. Okay I can respect that. We just have different veiwpoints on this. And propably very different gaming styles. Not say my is better either just different. By the way my problems isn't with the need for the changes it was the way it was done is very counter to how I like to play and run D&D. In all honesty as I have stated many times before, I wish you many years of enjoyment in the New Realms, I just wished I could enjoy them too....now I am guessing you reply will be something to the effect of, "You don't know what is coming and stuff. How can you judge?" That is simple the Weave was very important part of the ongoing campaign I am running and plan to continue to run for the next 10 years...maybe more. Also I dislike the elvation of Cyric by the designers over Midnight. I like Midnight better. Cyric just reminded me of those players who play evil characters to just mess with the other player. If I was just following the novels I would propably never read another book related to the Realms again. So these changes have fail me in both aspects of a RPG setting and a shared world of novels.
Charles Phipps 10-09-07, 04:02 AM	Cyric was the whipping boy of the Realms for awhile. I'd personally like to see novelizations of this and hope they're well written. For such a central character to the Realms (THE Chaotic Evil Deity), Fans just seem to have such disdain for him.
jwanderer5 10-09-07, 04:09 AM	The Dawn Cataclysm, the Descent, The Sundering, wonder if these were'nt ancient history but had happened during a current campaign there would be the uproar? For all those who have The Grand History of the Realms, please reread it. But don't focus on the back. Focus on the beginning and middle. And please come to realize that the FR are practically built on RSE even though the term is only recent. The current realms are built upon the bones of the old. What is causing most people to clutch their blankets in terror and shout "It's not fair" is the massive scope of the Spellplauge, including the events before and after. Many have cried that there's no reasoning behind any of the decisions. And really there doesn't have to be. Yet. Because all we've really heard is what happens. But not the details. Of course its not going to make sense that Tyr and Helm go at it. But just because we don't have the details now, doesn't mean that we won't get them. Or have to make them up ourselves. Or not. Why should mortals know the reasons for two deities to slug it out? Their respective clergies will have their own versions of the story, but for the most part it really doesn't matter. I might not have been posting, but I've been reading almost all the threads on the FR boards about the coming change. My last words are these, if all the events that we know are happening, we weren't told about until the FRCS was released, but everything was explained in detail, and it "made sense" would you all still be up in arms?
SgtAnjay 10-09-07, 04:59 AM	The Dawn Cataclysm, the Descent, The Sundering, wonder if these were'nt ancient history but had happened during a current campaign there would be the uproar?Yes. There's probably a reason such traumatic events were history. Its not impossible to have a great campaign setting in the middle of massive upheaval, there are several out there like that. But destroying the Realms in the middle of campaigns is hardly constructive. For all those who have The Grand History of the Realms, please reread it. But don't focus on the back. Focus on the beginning and middle. And please come to realize that the FR are practically built on RSE even though the term is only recent. The current realms are built upon the bones of the old.They are built on the bones of the old. But they haven't shown any "building" involved in the new changes, only destruction. What is causing most people to clutch their blankets in terror and shout "It's not fair" is the massive scope of the Spellplauge, including the events before and after.Clutch our blankets in terror? :rolleye2: But thanks for telling us the cause of our terror. Many have cried that there's no reasoning behind any of the decisions. And really there doesn't have to be. Yet. Because all we've really heard is what happens. But not the details. Of course its not going to make sense that Tyr and Helm go at it. But just because we don't have the details now, doesn't mean that we won't get them. Or have to make them up ourselves. Or not. Why should mortals know the reasons for two deities to slug it out? Their respective clergies will have their own versions of the story, but for the most part it really doesn't matter.Uh, I'm not some commoner farmer in some lonely part of the Realms going about my life saying "oh those crazy gods". I'm a customer looking for a story. If the premise to the story is flawed and unappetizing, telling a good story becomes nigh-on impossible, and I'm going to call them on it, regardless of whether the story is about Tyr or the little tressym that could. I might not have been posting, but I've been reading almost all the threads on the FR boards about the coming change. My last words are these, if all the events that we know are happening, we weren't told about until the FRCS was released, but everything was explained in detail, and it "made sense" would you all still be up in arms?That's about as circuitious an argument as I've heard. "If the story is great but you didn't know about it you wouldn't say the story wasn't great when you found out about it." No kidding. Well, "ifs" are nice and all but have no bearing; show me something to disprove the conceptsare destructive or ill-conceived.
Gray Richardson 10-09-07, 05:03 AM	They were not neccesary. Change to 4th edition does not require apocalypse.You misunderstand. The magic system in 4th edition works differently from the way it does in 3e. Ergo, some kind of change is necessary. I hope you can agree with that. :) Once it is agreed that some kind of change was necessary, it follows that someone has to choose what the change is going to be and write that change. I hope I have now made it clear that my point is that a change was indeed necessary. Choices had to be made. You may disagree with the specific choices that were made. But someone had to make the choices to effect the change. Not making a choice was not an option. Now, making choices is the responsibility of the editorial and design team. That's their job. WotC hired them to do that. They are the "deciders". Only they get the right and privilege to write the meta-plot. From what I understand there was a "Realms Summit" a couple years ago, involving Ed Greenwood and all the Realms designers. They got together and mapped out a plan. For all we know, the Spellplague was Ed's idea. Something George Krashos or someone said hinted that the Spellplague was based on some very old lore and was evolving naturally out of plot elements that were set in motion years ago. I don't know if it was Ed or not who came up with the Spellplague, but he was at least involved and had input into the decision. The decision wasn't made lightly. They have been working on it for 2 years. They made the best decision that they could based on the information available to them and the options that they came up with. Now, here is the crux of it: Sure, the design team could have made a lot of different choices. They made the choices they made. And the choices they made are valid ones. I am not saying they are the best choices, or the worst choices, I am neutral so far. But I think they should have the right to see it through and tell the story they have begun to tell. Sure it is dramatic. Sure it is tragic. Sure it is a shocker. But it has all the elements for the making of an epic story. How will it pan out? I don't know. It will all depend on the execution. Hopefully they will do a great job and people will be much relieved when they see the final product. I do think it is too early to judge. A handful of sentences is not enough data on which to make a fair evaluation. If I gave you a one paragraph summary of "The Godfather" or "Star Wars" a year before those movies came out, you might think the plot sounded bad. You might be turned off by the description. It might not do the story justice. Likewise, I think if you give the final product a chance, you just might find that the authors will wow you. As to the changes, I'm of the opinion the Year of Three Streams Blooded is a horrible mess, for reasons I've reiterated a couple times already. Perhaps you could explain to me how it is not?Sure, I have a pretty decent imagination. I could make some guesses. But that is not my place. That is the designers job. And they will do that for you in time. You are just going to have to wait a year to see how it all comes out. What you have read is just the 2 minute teaser trailer, the movie doesn't come out until next Summer. But in the mean time, we all get to imagine... Isn't the suspense just killing you? ;) Heh, I'm not impugning you, I'm calling you out on your bias;To be fair, yes you did impugn me, you called me intentionally misleading. You attributed dishonest intent to me, when all I have tried to do is be straight with you. If it were accurate, I could take the criticism, I would cop to it. But it was not accurate. But in order to make sure I am communicating effectively with you, I asked you why you drew that conclusion from what I said? as you feel no remorse calling others out on theirs, I didn't think you'd mind. Call me out on mine (surprise! I dont like alot of what they've put out so far). Also, its quite a stretch to play the "oh noes! you have insulted me" right after a snide remark about high school math classes.Sorry if you felt insulted, but come on, Dude, to be fair, I spelled it out for you, I did the math for you, and you still asked me how I came up with my conclusion. ;)Furthermore, Spellplague is the end of the old world and terrible beginning of the new; their words, not mine. How does this possibly translate objectively into a Realms "much the same"?It is dramatic prose. It was intended as a portentous and mysterious omen of things to come. It's like saying "Columbus discovered America, and the world would never be the same." Or when Oppenheimer said "I am become Shiva the destroyer of worlds" he didn't mean it literally. It was momentous, but the world didn't actually change much after. Just curious, how would you have written the last sentence of the book? ;)As to statements by Rich about shrinking pantheon, in the wake of a rapid series of deity deaths, and prior to a coming apocalypse wherein the deities themselves are mentioned as threatened, those are just an opinion, but reassurances about how great things are going to be are fact? Sorry, that doesn't play.I don't know how else to comfort you. You are clearly distressed. There is a great deal of hysteria on the boards. I don't want you or anyone to be worried or unhappy about it. I just want to give everyone a big hug and pat them on the back and say "there, there, it's going to be okay". :cloud9: I think people need to hear that now. Of course, I am not psychic. I can't know for certain how things are going to turn out. All I can do is look at WotC's track record and see that they have written some good stuff before, so maybe they will do it again. WotC has a lot of money riding on this. That usually means they take it seriously. From everything the team has shared with us, from their postings on the boards and their published writings, I know Rich Baker and his design team obviously care very much about the Realms. They have been doing it for a long time. They have earned their positions. They're professionals and they know the Realms well. Ed Greenwood has said nice things about them and has expressed confidence in them. And I trust Ed. I think this team is the right team to shepherd us into the Realms of the 4th edition.;) nothing WotC has released has mentioned anything but deaths and destruction.To be fair, they mentioned a wedding, they mention the dwarves and the duergar reuniting to go found a new kingdom, some illithids get defeated, Azoun V makes it to adulthood and takes the throne of Cormyr. He pledges to give his people greater civil rights, very progressive! Those are all good things right? You've just got to try and see that the glass is not half empty, it is half full. ;) ;) but rest assured I await with baited breath the execution when fleshing out the more vague events the've previed. The potential for greatness is there despite all the destruction they've decided to embrace.That's the spirit! I think it is cool that you are willing to give them a shot and see what they do with it. :w00t:
GothicDan 10-09-07, 07:30 AM	I'm waiting for you guys to break down into just: "0!" "1!" "0!" "1!" Because the above holds all of the controversy and zeal you obviously have, and 0's and 1's just never match up on the number line. Ever.
Alediran 10-09-07, 08:51 AM	Gray, the changes to the magic system are there, that we don't argue. If they wanted to change the realm's magic the best thing they could have done was change Mystra, not kill her.
Stigger 10-09-07, 10:04 AM	Not the ending, its the trip towards it that is concerning me... if you're going to drop an epic of a story on our heads and make the world come crashing down, at least do it so that it doesn't sound utterly absurd from the get go. The goddess of love arranging a marriage between two deities for apparently political reasons... sure, that's one of those major functions of love... the god of justice bashing the god of guardianship over the head because he couldn't sniff out a plot by a moron of a deity... sure, just goes to show you that justice is indeed blind, and apparently stupid. One wonders when the mute part is going to kick in. Tossing out a plague that apparently does a hell of a number on the world's population (and I'd wager keeping Talona as a lesser power in the process, in keeping with the absurdity) that those pesky deities are too busy to get around to fixing, but then they're apparently idiots who don't actually care about their followers while they're living out their own little petty soap operas... c'mon, this is just the stuff of melodrama, not the stuff of epic legendry, at least not my idea of it. Like someone up there said, if you want to change magic that badly, just do it with some sneaky bits that have Mystra change the Weave (again), don't start in with the divine soap opera... there's easier ways to do it. Really, the impression this is all leaving me with is that they don't feel like keeping continuity with the past lore, and so are just going to chuck it, pull a modified form of the comic industry's Great Reset, and take the easy way out of this... I'll certainly agree that that sentiment is unsubstantiated conjecture, however saying that its all going to be okay is just as unsubstantiated and conjectural as saying anything else at all. These sentiments that all sides are putting forth cannot help but be anything else, but presumably, we can each look at what's been put out there so far and draw our own conclusions about how it sounds to us... which I gather we're rather supposed to do since WotC bothered to actually tell us about their plans. I'll leave the judgement of the wisdom shown of that announcement to others to debate, and for time to show.
MarkusTay63 10-09-07, 11:52 AM	Ditto :rolleyes: Wecome back, Stig. Gray, the changes to the magic system are there, that we don't argue. If they wanted to change the realm's magic the best thing they could have done was change Mystra, not kill her.Personally, I could care less if they killed Mystra - if it was done in a very well written and intelligent manner.* Hell. I wouldn't have even minded the Helm love-triangle if it was done with an incredible back story. But they weren't - they were dropped on us in a little blurb, almost as if they were saying "oh, by the way...". :nonono: * By 'well written' I mean outside talent - someone like Dan Brown.
Gray Richardson 10-09-07, 01:44 PM	Gray, the changes to the magic system are there, that we don't argue. If they wanted to change the realm's magic the best thing they could have done was change Mystra, not kill her.I hear what you are saying. I don't necessarily agree that changing Mystra was the best option. How about bringing Mystryl back? Or how about letting Isis take over the magic portfolio? Or Thoth? Or Shar? Or elevating Elminster to divinity to take her place. See, there are a thousand different options here. None of them necessarily better or worse, just different. If you surveyed a thousand people on the boards, and had everybody write out their proposal for change, I don't think you would find any two people that agree on the specific changes that should be made. Although you might have the 999 others united in disagreeing on any one specific proposal that was offered. Heck if you go to an icecream shop and choose chocolate over peanut butter or vanilla, who am I to judge? That is your choice. You have to make the choice that is right for you. It would be illogical for 20 people to stand around and tell you "oh man! you should have chosen vanilla!" or trying to tell you that cherry is better than chocolate. Now with the Realms, the only people that could make the choice was the Realms design team. No one else gets to make that choice for them. If you want to shell out a few million dollars to buy WotC, then it can be your choice. But since it is their choice, and they are uniquely qualified and experienced to make that choice, I think we should let them run with it.
Gray Richardson 10-09-07, 01:50 PM	Ditto :rolleyes: But they weren't - they were dropped on us in a little blurb, almost as if they were saying "oh, by the way..."I see your point. But I don't think that will be the last word. I get the feeling the story will be expanded on in a novel or in the FRCG. I don't think that WotC could have known that giving everyone a sneak peak of coming events would cause the hysteria it has. Generally people like to get sneak peaks. People usually don't go postal about it. So perhaps WotC can be forgiven of offering information before it was ready to be fully presented to the public. I am sure if you give them some time they will redeem themselves with a fully fleshed out account of the events to unfold.
msatran 10-09-07, 02:13 PM	Actually, I don't WANT a medieval kingdom that offers cheesy politically correct civil rights. Making D+D too much like the "real modern world" takes away the element of FANTASY and replaces it with REALISM. And we all know what happens when things become "realistic." They become gritty, grim, and unpleasant. Murder lurks around every corner and paranoia in every alleyway. It may be "Points of Light." But why would you want to live in a world like this?
Alediran 10-09-07, 02:36 PM	I hear what you are saying. I don't necessarily agree that changing Mystra was the best option. How about bringing Mystryl back? Or how about letting Isis take over the magic portfolio? Or Thoth? Or Shar? Or elevating Elminster to divinity to take her place. The Mulhorandi deities where never a big part of the realms and I barely mention them. I would never accept Shar, I'm pro-Mystra after all, and I prefer a setting where Arcane Casters can be viewed with awe, wonder and can be heroes without having 400000 paladin orders trying to kill them because they carry the stigma of an evil god controlling the source of what they are (Warcraft for example), and I don't like distant gods, I prefer Greek-like gods. Elminster still has a place in the realms for me and many others. Mystryl would be the only option I could accept from those you suggested But since it is their choice, and they are uniquely qualified and experienced to make that choice, I think we should let them run with it. How they are uniquely qualified and experienced and who gave them that title? I would prefer many of my fellow board members as a designer than some of those who are. Even I could do some things much better, the realms don't need changes in a dumb way. The Spellplague and 4ed FR basically kills my favorite character (A Sun Elf Wizard) when he is barely into his prime. There are better ways to change bad things (and except some issues with Shar and her SW I don't think the realms have any problem) that making a reset
MarkusTay63 10-09-07, 02:50 PM	Actually, the Mulhorandi Gods have been an integral part of the Realms for over three millenium. Both Hoar and Sharess (Bast) have made the crossover into the Faerūnian Pantheon, and Set has got his sticky little fingers in everyone's pie. I have no trouble accepting Isis as an alternate, but perhaps they should then give her a name change to 'Realmsify' her, the way they did with the others? Something like Mysis? :D http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/b0d0793509a0fe5747c74110_L.jpg She looks good to me. :drool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-09-07, 03:17 PM	Just for example, By my rough count there are something like 238 gods in the Realms (depending on how you count). So far they have named about 9 gods (give or take) that they intend to kill. 9 out of 238 gods is only a 3.8% change in the status quo. That means 96.2% of the gods will not be touched (as far as I know). That's assuming those stats are true. Are you privy to information that we are not? We don't know what the ending tally of gods is going to be yet, for better or for worse (the information in GHotR is selective, not exhaustive).
18DELTA 10-09-07, 03:19 PM	From what I understand there was a "Realms Summit" a couple years ago, involving Ed Greenwood and all the Realms designers. They got together and mapped out a plan. For all we know, the Spellplague was Ed's idea. Something George Krashos or someone said hinted that the Spellplague was based on some very old lore and was evolving naturally out of plot elements that were set in motion years ago. Check out page 69 in "The Grand History of the Realms". The Year of the Promise DR308! I think that might just answer your question.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-09-07, 03:33 PM	From what I understand there was a "Realms Summit" a couple years ago, involving Ed Greenwood and all the Realms designers. They got together and mapped out a plan. For all we know, the Spellplague was Ed's idea. Actually, Ed has outright stated that is was not his idea. You can read his full thoughts on Candlekeep.com (it should still be stickyed in the Chat Forum, and easy to find).
MarkusTay63 10-09-07, 03:42 PM	I am sure that the Spellplague evolved on its own, and THEN they went looking for some canon lore to tie it to. This EXACTLY what I do when I write something, and I'm sure most other wanna-be designers here and on other sites do as well. You backwards-engineer your new ideas to fit the world's lore, not the other way around. Unless you're an author.... :rolleyes: <so, no-one dug my Isis pic?> :P
18DELTA 10-09-07, 03:46 PM	Oh I dig her dude. Just left my sick thinking to myself!:D
MarkusTay63 10-09-07, 04:25 PM	Here's the intro to the old TV program (you need to crank up the volume) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuIjJBYOUPM And here's part of an episode - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjYC3N7MskU I'm really digging on that short skirt (notice how it goes up when she chases the guy down the hill?) Yeah... I can live with her as Mystra's replacement. I'll miss the old transvestite, though. :( I hope we get the El Camino in 4e too, and the convertible is pretty sweet. I can do without the police car, though... :rolleyes: :P I love retro stuff. :dancin:
Bonzai 10-09-07, 04:47 PM	Bonzai, while I respect your concerns, I think you might also be missing a point or two. When TSR changed form 1st edition to 2d edition, they introduced a "Realms-Shaking-Event", the Time of Troubles to explain the changes. This got mixed reviews and left a lot of fans in an uproar, saying they didn't like the dramatic changes to the Realms. I wasn't a realms player when it happened, but I read the novels and kept up some what with the lore, what did the ToT's really accomplish? Myrkul and Bhaal are gone, Kelvemor and Cyric are in, and Unther gets shaken up. Aside from Unther, what parts of the realms were irrovocably changed? Even the changes to Unther weren't that bad, as they appeared thought out, and interesting. Almost a metaphor for whats gone on in Iraq in a way. So we have 2 gods that were replaced, and one Kingdom going through some changes, but still limping along. Thats managable. This time, we have Halaster dieing, leaving undermountain's fate uncertian, Khelbens gone, the High Moor's changed, Thay possibly being wiped out either from the spell plague or by civil war, Sembia about to become a waste land after the Shades and undead are done with it, the Drow Patheon possibly being reduced down to just Loth, The Druegar making a partial return to the Dwarven race, Sylune becoming re-ceased, Elministers tower being destroyed, Water deep possibly being destroyed, Luscan burning to the ground, an Aboleth empire emerging, Shades re-establishing the Netheril empire, possibly a return of the imaskari as well, Mystra's gone, the weave is gone, the shadow weave has to go as well, Helm is gone, the Triad is broken, Savras is gone, and Azuth, Cyric, and Velarashoon are temporarily out of the picture. I am sure I missed quite a bit, and thats even more scary. And all of this is deemed "necessary" to bring about 4.0. :noway:
Charles Phipps 10-09-07, 05:04 PM	Bane was also gone for a couple of decades. All assassins were dead as well.
18DELTA 10-09-07, 05:20 PM	:rofl: MarkusTay63 it is good to have your sick:censored: back! I will watch it tonight when nobody is around wink, wink!:P I still remember Electro Woman & Dyno Girl! :drool: :thumbsup: :chicken: :D
Stigger 10-09-07, 05:23 PM	One wonders though, now that it's been brought up, just how much it would cost to buy WotC... probably more than I have, but its a nice thought really. :D
capnvan 10-09-07, 05:37 PM	Sigh..... Saddly, a part of me wishes that they had. It would have felt more honest to me if they flat out said, "Guys, the Realms have had a good run, but we would be irrovocably changing them by interrgrating them into 4.0. So instead we are going to no longer support the setting with the new sytem, and focus on a brand new setting that I am sure everyone will enjoy". They won't do that though, and instead they are irrovocably changing the realms, but keeping the best selling characters. It really is getting to a point for me where I have to ask, "What is left for me in the realms"? Well put. Sr. Baker's post did nothing to alleviate my concerns. Rather, I'm left wondering why there hasn't been the same kind of response as James Wyatt's. I may not be happy with it (and I'm not, per se) but I appreciate that he mentioned that there are folks here who are unhappy. He addressed our concerns, at least tangentially. How disturbing is that for FR fans? We get a side mention in a defense of another staffer? I am glad that our complaints are not going unnoticed. Be emboldened!
ClobberinTime 10-09-07, 05:37 PM	Electro Woman and Dyno Girl, were they part of the Kroft Superstars hour. Wasn't that ABC, with Mr. Shrinker, the one with the car that could talk... etc... etc... Man I still have nightmares, :)
Bonzai 10-09-07, 06:31 PM	Bane was also gone for a couple of decades. All assassins were dead as well. True, but bane did come back, and for all intents and purposes, Bane's sone was just Bane-light. As far as the assasin thing... Hard to believe it killed all of them. Wasn't Entrari around during the ToT? He is most definatly an assasin, but he was also popular so he ended up getting a repreave.
Green Elven Vampire 10-09-07, 07:02 PM	Die 4ED DIE!!!!! Again, I hope 4ED Forgotten Realms sales are wicked horrible to the point that they just stop releasing the crap. Die 4ED DIE!! [EDIT: There is a 4E forum for discussion, and complaints, of 4E. Please do not spam other threads]
Charles Phipps 10-09-07, 07:24 PM	Wouldn't it be better to hope 4E FR is good?
Butterface 10-09-07, 07:51 PM	Die 4ED DIE!!!!! Again, I hope 4ED Forgotten Realms sales are wicked horrible to the point that they just stop releasing the crap. Die 4ED DIE!! :twitch: much?
Stigger 10-09-07, 07:56 PM	Sure we can hope 4e Realms is good, but based on what I know at the moment, I'm not seeing a whole lot of reason to do so.
Rauric 10-09-07, 08:08 PM	Wouldn't it be better to hope 4E FR is good? Sure if you were an average gamer. Maybe he is one of those fans that Gray was talking about.
MerrikCale 10-09-07, 09:59 PM	Wouldn't it be better to hope 4E FR is good? I'm sure just about everyone does. Its just that most feel its unlikely based on the evidence to date. Very unlikely.
Andyr 10-10-07, 01:06 PM	True, but bane did come back, and for all intents and purposes, Bane's sone was just Bane-light. As far as the assasin thing... Hard to believe it killed all of them. Wasn't Entrari around during the ToT? He is most definatly an assasin, but he was also popular so he ended up getting a repreave. I am not sure whether the phrase in the novels was meant to mean all assassins, or just those who worshipped Bhaal.
MarkusTay63 10-10-07, 01:29 PM	Story-wise, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but from a meta-gaming point of view then YES, they ALL died. Assasins were gotten rid of when the game shifted from 1e to 2e, so TSR needed to explain what happened to all of them. personally, I thought that was one of the better explanantions for rules changes. And by 'better', I mean "not nearly as bad as the others". ;)
MarkusTay63 10-11-07, 12:11 AM	And now for something completely different - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/46218736_baby14.gif
Dark Wizard 10-11-07, 12:18 AM	Aw, fudge. He just spammed like ten threads in this forum. I thought the worst of this negativity passed.
Rauric 10-11-07, 12:30 AM	No dude. He is Old School Gamer T-dog!!! Whoooohooo. Ya think he is really Old School, or a 15 year old trying to make an O Schooler look dumb?
Keahi19 10-11-07, 03:02 AM	Well I am not dead set against them, I just hope it's done believably. ANd I want to be able to use my 3.5 books with the modifications. I mean if they just go and blow everything out of the water, that'd make all my other books worthless and that's not a way to go.
MarkusTay63 10-11-07, 07:09 PM	Hmph. Now my dancing baby serves no purpose. :P Ah, well... at least his posts are gone.
18DELTA 10-15-07, 07:44 PM	And now for something completely different - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/46218736_baby14.gif I find it utterly disturbing!!!:D old school gamer t-dog must be stopped!!!!:P