Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zsych 03-11-06, 05:00 PM	This is just a random thought, but maybe the Shades don't know how to cast spells in circles. The Red Wizards do, and some elves do, plus there's Elven High Magic. But the Netherese Wizards were independent people, who strove to become gods(by themselves). I'd think that if they'd had castings in circles, they'd not have needed too much aid in coming back to Faerun, and in general they should have had better magic(considering their time in the Shadow plane and the horrors they've supposedly faced, doesn't look like they turned out as strong as they should have). Anyway, one wonders what the mergence of various groups of evil wizards, and their magical knowledge might lead to... Like the Red Wizards and the Shades.
Lord Karsus 03-12-06, 02:13 AM	Anyway, one wonders what the mergence of various groups of evil wizards, and their magical knowledge might lead to... Like the Red Wizards and the Shades. -This wouldn't work out for one main reason- they both want to be the sole rulers of the world. Obviously, they can't be the sole rulers of the world if they have co-rulers. Look at Germany and Japan during World War Two. Both wanted global domination (more or less. World domination is always going to be a goal). They both agreed to be content if Japan ruled Southern Asia, and Germany ruled everything else. But, both of their inherent dogmas (The Aryrans are superior to everyone else, and the Japanese are superior to everyone else) would have led the two sides to war with each other, eventually.
Zsych 03-12-06, 03:36 AM	In that respect, i was thinking more along the lines of the Shades either managing to subdue the Red Wizards(perhaps putting their strength and magical knowledge behind one of the weaker Zulkirs... from a useful to the story PoV, let's make it Lauzoril :)) or... just some knowledge exchange, for example, the Shades abducting high level wizards(sorta like what we did with German rocket scientists :)), once the Shades realize that the Reds have magic that they themselves do not. ... The Red Wizards could also potentially capture some Shades or others, but actually capturing a high level mage of Shade should be harder than capturing a high level Red Wizard(they tend to get killed by their opponents anyway, so just back someone to capture his opponent instead :)) ... It also seems that the Shades aren't particularly interested in World Domination, unlike the Red Wizards. They'd probably be content with Netheril, if they could repair it(personally, if i were in their place, i would be. Reconquer the ancestral homeland, and if you need to go further, there's plenty of prime material worlds available for the taking... many likely to be uninhabited(by sentients) too :))
Lord Karsus 03-12-06, 11:18 PM	... It also seems that the Shades aren't particularly interested in World Domination, unlike the Red Wizards. They'd probably be content with Netheril, if they could repair it(personally, if i were in their place, i would be. Reconquer the ancestral homeland, and if you need to go further, there's plenty of prime material worlds available for the taking... many likely to be uninhabited(by sentients) too :)) -Not many people start off wanting global domination. But, the Shades, the Red Wizards- Everyone is greedy. Why stop where you are, when you're nearly unstoppable?
Zsych 03-13-06, 08:12 AM	Because Netheril itself, despite all of the various enclaves being around, did not expand beyond the boundaries of the Anauroch, with the exception of a few that left due to the trouble the Phaerimm were causing. Telamont wants to resurrect Netheril. If the land can be repaired, then the land can handle a few dozen enclaves at least. No point spreading out so early. Ultimately, the Shades conquering Faerun, is like the US deciding to conquer savage places like Afghanistan. They have nothing that we'd want. The level of life for commoners even on Shade enclave, is probably much higher than the level anywhere else on Toril. Why would they want to make themselves miserable conquering such places, and giving up their luxuries? Like i said, you don't typically even have running water in Faerun(except for a few places), why would the Shades want to conquer such places(unless they become a serious threat)?
Lord Karsus 03-13-06, 08:44 AM	Because Netheril itself, despite all of the various enclaves being around, did not expand beyond the boundaries of the Anauroch, with the exception of a few that left due to the trouble the Phaerimm were causing. Telamont wants to resurrect Netheril. If the land can be repaired, then the land can handle a few dozen enclaves at least. No point spreading out so early. Ultimately, the Shades conquering Faerun, is like the US deciding to conquer savage places like Afghanistan. They have nothing that we'd want. The level of life for commoners even on Shade enclave, is probably much higher than the level anywhere else on Toril. Why would they want to make themselves miserable conquering such places, and giving up their luxuries? Like i said, you don't typically even have running water in Faerun(except for a few places), why would the Shades want to conquer such places(unless they become a serious threat)? -The United States is generally not interested in Imperialism because there are few things that aren't easily obtainable on in the country. Asides for maybe oil, foreign flora and fauna, and perhaps a few other things, everything else could easily be grown/created in the country. -Thultanthar, on the other hand, is a single floating city. Even should they somehow be able to conquer the lands that Netheril once had, they would still be wanting- badly. Remember, much of what they once had is nothing but desert now. The effects of the Phaerimm's spell has lasted for thousands of years, and who is really to say if the arcanists of Shade can reverse them. -So, this new Netherilian Empire would be lacking many resources- wood, ore, all sorts of things. Of course, not many people would be willing to trade with them- they've exibited so much disdain and contempt towards the rest of the world. So, much like Japan at the advent of World War Two, they will need to gain nearby terratories in order to get the many natural resources they need. And, after a while, even if they had no other intentions of invading another area again, "The grass is greener on the other side of the fence".
Zsych 03-13-06, 12:49 PM	.. and thus the US uses, not completely decent tactics to insure that oil :) Perhaps the Shades would do the same, but on the whole, i doubt that they want to conquer lands, and i doubt that they want to live in any of the grounded places. Easier for some Shades to just buy farming land and set up a portal to it to get what they need, or the same with some forest. In general my first assumption of anyone is never that they are animals with negligible intellect. And as was said in the old DM's guide to higher level campaigns... People do not reach high level(and in this case epic level), by being stupid. Even if they plan to conquer all of Faerun some day, they wouldn't just go on the attack. Wars cost a whole lot of resources that can no longer be used by your country in any way that is productive to civilians(and bombs and ammunition just vanish entirely :)) One would have to judge a war worth the effort, to engage in it, and you'd likely engage in it, only if you were reasonably sure that you could handle all the repercussions. The Shades have already suffered a loss, i doubt they'll act so foolishly again. -- As for their motivations... it still seems to me that they want to resurrect Netheril. And if i were them, my first focus would be creating more enclaves. With a dozen or more bases to work from their situation would be a lot stronger(though it may take a century or more to reach that level). Shade has been around a whole lot longer than Elminster, i'd expect that he's learned some patience in all that time. -- I wish WotC would stop the 2 months realm time, for 5 months in the real world thing, and just jump ahead 20 years. Most major characters will likely be unchanged in that time, and you'd only have some political changes :)
Lord Karsus 03-13-06, 10:58 PM	.. and thus the US uses, not completely decent tactics to insure that oil :) Perhaps the Shades would do the same, but on the whole, i doubt that they want to conquer lands, and i doubt that they want to live in any of the grounded places. Easier for some Shades to just buy farming land and set up a portal to it to get what they need, or the same with some forest. In general my first assumption of anyone is never that they are animals with negligible intellect. And as was said in the old DM's guide to higher level campaigns... People do not reach high level(and in this case epic level), by being stupid. Even if they plan to conquer all of Faerun some day, they wouldn't just go on the attack. Wars cost a whole lot of resources that can no longer be used by your country in any way that is productive to civilians(and bombs and ammunition just vanish entirely :)) One would have to judge a war worth the effort, to engage in it, and you'd likely engage in it, only if you were reasonably sure that you could handle all the repercussions. The Shades have already suffered a loss, i doubt they'll act so foolishly again. -- As for their motivations... it still seems to me that they want to resurrect Netheril. And if i were them, my first focus would be creating more enclaves. With a dozen or more bases to work from their situation would be a lot stronger(though it may take a century or more to reach that level). Shade has been around a whole lot longer than Elminster, i'd expect that he's learned some patience in all that time. -- I wish WotC would stop the 2 months realm time, for 5 months in the real world thing, and just jump ahead 20 years. Most major characters will likely be unchanged in that time, and you'd only have some political changes :) -Hey, hey, hey. All politics aside. You might think that the US uses deceitful methods, but other might not. But, forget the real world politics. -I never said that Shade would immediatley try to take over the world. As you said, they have just recently suffered a major defeat. Jumping the gun would be extremely fool hardy. -I still maintain my view that, eventually, Shade and their new Netheril Empire will strive to take over the world. Again, I still believe my arguments from before. Like you say, if they ever want to do so, however, they had better bolster their power. -As for the lag between Realms-time and normal time. It would be nice to see plots that might revolve extremely slowly come to fruition. But, there are two reasons why I support this time gap. First off, it takes some time to write a novel- five months seems about right. We don't want to be rushing our authors, and then getting stories that are not up to their usual standard. Secondly, having the time gap allows writers to incorporate other people's writing and plot lines into their own stories. If a person could simply jump some twenty years into the future, it might unravel many continuity facts and plots that have been put into motion years before.
Telagaunt 03-13-06, 11:05 PM	As said before, Shadovar will need more resources in order to mount an actual conquest all over Faerun. I don't have my FRCS with me, but I remember the population of Shade was either 25,000 or 50,000. I can't remember which, but with..bah, I can't remember the exact number, but only a few hundred Shadovar are actually shades. Melting the High Ice was a one shot deal really, and they got found out. In order for Shade to become a real empire (although it claims all of Anarauch is their's), and actually conquer Faerun, Shadovar will have to eliminate the top dogs of world first. Mainly the Chosen of Mystra of course, and other various high leveled 'hero' that would stand in their way. I mean, Simbul turns entire Thayan invasions of Aglarond, so in a world of magic, 'army of one' is literal :P I hear the new trilogy by Paul S. Kemp featuring Erevis Cale is supposed to be the new RSE, and will involve the Shadovar, and anyone who read the last trilogy will know it will involve more than just Shades lol so... :D
Lord Karsus 03-13-06, 11:27 PM	As said before, Shadovar will need more resources in order to mount an actual conquest all over Faerun. I don't have my FRCS with me, but I remember the population of Shade was either 25,000 or 50,000. I can't remember which, but with..bah, I can't remember the exact number, but only a few hundred Shadovar are actually shades. Melting the High Ice was a one shot deal really, and they got found out. In order for Shade to become a real empire (although it claims all of Anarauch is their's), and actually conquer Faerun, Shadovar will have to eliminate the top dogs of world first. Mainly the Chosen of Mystra of course, and other various high leveled 'hero' that would stand in their way. I mean, Simbul turns entire Thayan invasions of Aglarond, so in a world of magic, 'army of one' is literal :P I hear the new trilogy by Paul S. Kemp featuring Erevis Cale is supposed to be the new RSE, and will involve the Shadovar, and anyone who read the last trilogy will know it will involve more than just Shades lol so... :D -As per Lords of Darkness, there are 500 (Give or Take) Shade Shadovar, and 25,000 Normal Shadovar (Again, Give or Take). -No one ever said that taking over the world would be easy! -Yes, Mr. Kemp's new series, The Twilight War Trilogy, will consist of Shadowbred (July 2006), Shadowstorm (August 2007) and Shadowrealm (Mid-2008)- Gee, I hope the world doesn;t end before then! Anyway, I forsee lots of Shadovar, Shar, Mask, Cale, Riven, Magadon, Shade and Shadows...
Zsych 03-14-06, 03:41 PM	Hope the Shades don't get their backsides handed to them by Mask's servants. After all, if Chosen of Mask are in play, Shar should do something. It is interesting that so far there seem to be no Chosen of Shar... or even people upgraded by Shar who she has an interest in. Telamont himself is weaker than he should be, considering who he is. Shar really needs to get her game back together. - As for fixing the Anauroch, i think that we came to the conclusion that portals to the Elemental plane of Water, coupled with portals to the Positive Energy plane, might be most of the way sufficient to repair the desert(the existence of oasis implies that with water around, it's usually not very difficult to get things moving) ... and patience is a virtue :) Hmmm... in places like Saudi Arabia, they've actually imported soil from other countries and used it for farming(money from oil is definitely a great power :)) Though i think that a reasonable part of the change owes to the desalination plants(another cool and somewhat horrifying stunt, for providing water to the people... definitely epic magic :)) -- It is interesting how so often in novels, the baddies(or even the goodies) refuse to use their potential completely(the added complexity must be hard to deal with).
Lord Karsus 03-15-06, 12:36 AM	Hope the Shades don't get their backsides handed to them by Mask's servants. After all, if Chosen of Mask are in play, Shar should do something. It is interesting that so far there seem to be no Chosen of Shar... or even people upgraded by Shar who she has an interest in. Telamont himself is weaker than he should be, considering who he is. Shar really needs to get her game back together. -Actually, I was under the assumption that the Shadovar and Cale & Co. would be working together. I mean, the two groups have many similarities, and Mask and Shar have been known to work together on occasion, with both of them being deities of darkness and everything. But, I never really gave it a thought that they might be on opposite sides. Well, if they were, I'd be betting on Shade to win. -There is Volumvax, a Shade who has served Shar for millennia, and has been upgraded to a DR 0 for his service to her. He's detailed onPg. 173 of F&P. As for a Chosen of Shar...There is one unnamed Chosen of Shar mentioned in Underdark. He/she is mentioned in one of those little sidebars. And, coincidentally, one of my characters, Dagnirion Un'Dali, is a Chosen of Shar!
Zsych 03-16-06, 04:07 AM	Ah... Shadowvar and Cale working together. Intriguing. Must be why there's supposed to be an RSE involved. If it was a novel about goodies opposing the Shadowvar, the Shadowvar wouldn't succeed however much they wanted to. --- Personally, i tend to think that the baddies are supposed to win at least 30% of the time, though your PCs shouldn't necessarily die from the experience :) ... Fulfill all your objectives, do your best, and still not really defeat the enemy :) What's the point of fighting evil when it's no real threat by virtue of good always winning? :) (i'm ignoring player deaths and such causing mission failures in this statement) --- Hmm... now i'm actually interested(not that i wasn't going to get the books anyway :))
Lord Karsus 03-17-06, 01:35 AM	-Ahh, let's be careful, because we are starting to wade into dangerous waters... -Back on topic, it would be interesting to if some kind of Shadow Elven High Magic were to be ever derived from the combination of the Shadow Weave and normal Elven High Magic. Hadrhune is an Elf and a Shade, so theoretically, he should be able to cast said Elven High Magic. Of course, he is nowhere near powerful enough, nor does he have the lore. But, should a group of High Magi ever be "convinced" (Or Dominated, which ever is easier) to join the Shadovar, and be transformed into Elven Shades...
Zsych 03-17-06, 06:04 PM	I think that elves lose the ability to use High-magic if they take up the Shadow-weave(extrapolated from some memory and Galaeron in RotA losing his ability to enter the Reverie, and having to sleep like humans... his link to other elves severed). Still... I remember reading what one of the authors said on the issue though, and apparently high-magic is not necessarily an elven thing. It's more correct to say that other people just don't know the rituals involved, and never learn to access magic in that way. But it is theoretically possible for humans to use elven high magic :) (not that we'll ever see any such :) it'll be a miracle if even a half-elf is ever taught the ways of Elven High Magic) So, perhaps there can be some sort of shadow-high magic. ... Still, i think that for the time being, all the various groups will simply stick to their own talents/arts/sciences.
Dark Wizard 03-17-06, 07:04 PM	Halruaan wizards make use of cooperative circle magic and they are from the Netherese tradition.
Whitestaff 03-18-06, 11:01 AM	Also I wonder how is Halrua reacting to the appearence of a Nether enclave in the face of Fearun...
Jiggawha 03-18-06, 02:05 PM	Halruaa is not interested in outer affairs. Also I'd like to say something about thiss world domination stuff. Shades and Red Wizards, add Zhentarim and Twisted Rune, Arcane Brotherhood, Cult of the Dragon etc. if these organizations would unite under one banner their evil still wouldn't match that of US, land of the ''free'' that brings justice to entire world.
Zsych 03-18-06, 03:10 PM	The Halruuans may retain some of the magical knowledge but they retain little of Netheril's attitude. The ultimate objective of all Netherese arch-mages was to become gods. Don't think anyone in Halruua thinks that high. As for whether they are interested in Shade. ... Seeing as magic is the most important thing to them, i'd really expect them to be, however Elaine Cunningham says that she doesn't expect to see Halruua ally with the Shades anytime in the future.
Dark Wizard 03-18-06, 03:32 PM	Halruaa is not interested in outer affairs. Also I'd like to say something about thiss world domination stuff. Shades and Red Wizards, add Zhentarim and Twisted Rune, Arcane Brotherhood, Cult of the Dragon etc. if these organizations would unite under one banner their evil still wouldn't match that of US, land of the ''free'' that brings justice to entire world. That was rather irrelevant to this discussion, and I believe against the Forum rules....
Jiggawha 03-18-06, 03:58 PM	Sorry but this really made me mad, these lies ... -The United States is generally not interested in Imperialism because there are few things that aren't easily obtainable on in the country. Asides for maybe oil, foreign flora and fauna, and perhaps a few other things, everything else could easily be grown/created in the country.
Whitestaff 03-18-06, 06:14 PM	Sorry but this really made me mad, these lies ... Cry me a river. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 03-19-06, 12:00 AM	I think that elves lose the ability to use High-magic if they take up the Shadow-weave(extrapolated from some memory and Galaeron in RotA losing his ability to enter the Reverie, and having to sleep like humans... his link to other elves severed). -They might begin falling from 'Elvendom', but they must still have the ability to cast High Magic. I also admit that it's been awhile since I read the RotA Trilogy, but Galaeron took the place of one of the High Mages after he died at the end, when they were reweaving the Mythal of Evereska. Obviously (although where he got this ability in the first place), it must be possible for an Elven High Mage user to tap the Shadow Weave.
Zsych 03-19-06, 07:52 AM	Galaeron might have been adapting some Netherese knowledge to join in the creation of the new mythal. Personally, i don't think that it should be possible to use both the Weave and the Shadow-weave as part of the same creation, without some serious trouble(trouble that will perhaps lead to trouble for Evereska some day)
Lord Karsus 03-19-06, 11:20 PM	Galaeron might have been adapting some Netherese knowledge to join in the creation of the new mythal. Personally, i don't think that it should be possible to use both the Weave and the Shadow-weave as part of the same creation, without some serious trouble(trouble that will perhaps lead to trouble for Evereska some day) -Galaeron didn't exactly have much Netherese knowledge. He did spend some time on Thultanthar (I believe), but spending a little time does not translate into being able to cast Elven High Magic. Perhaps the Seldarine were at work there- who knows? -Yeah, at the beginning of the series, Shadow Weave Magic, and Wave Magic mixed together spelled some serious problems, as Elminster found out. But, if I recall, that line of thinking, where Shadow Weave + Weave meant some dire consequences, was nixed. Well, like so many other things, only time will tell.