Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fw190a8 04-26-07, 07:16 PM	I read with interest this section of another thread, but to avoid taking that one off topic, I have started a new one: Stormreach was probably the biggest mistake WotC ever made, considering the incredibly popularity of the Baldur's gate/Neverwinter Nights games. The Forgotten Realms Online would have given World of Warcraft a run for it's money, but Stormreach is merely an 'also-ran'. I have to disagree that if a D&D-based MMO game (massively multiplayer online) was released in the Forgotten Realms, it would have equalled World of Warcraft in popularity. In my opinion the reason for the comparative failure of the Stormreach game was that it wasn't a great game. Blizzard, who were behind World of Warcraft, previously had successes with games like Diablo and Warcraft, concepts that they created themselves, and are enormously successful in their own right, even today, to some extent. This means that the game was based on previous successful ideas (such as the slot-based inventory) and combined with extremely high production values and very balanced gameplay, provides an addictive playing experience. Compare this with Stormreach. Wizards don't have a game studio so they have to license the D&D game, lore and rules to development companies. Something is bound to be lost in translation. Also, the D&D rules were never supposed to be 'self-balancing' like most computer games. The DM is what provides the balance. If something seems too hard for the players, the DM throws a few dice rolls (hopefully in a tactful way) to avoid ruining the fun. A computer can't do this, so all the D&D computer games have had simplified rulesets, and even then, balance has been slightly wobbly (players passing through Baldur's Gate II in the 'wrong' sequence could encounter impossibly hard enemies). Finally, D&D just isn't "cool". Lord of the Rings seems to be reasonably "cool" since the movies and World of Warcraft's massive player base gives it reason to be "cool" (although this was fought for). With all that in mind, I don't think it would have mattered if the Stormreach game was set in Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or any other setting. The number of people who will play such a game because it's a good game far exceeds the number of people who will play the game regardless, out of loyalty to the campaign setting. World of Warcraft has something like 8 million subscribers, putting its population on a par with Switzerland (not an accurate comparison since World of Warcraft is actually made up of many, many small, identical worlds). It would take a massive effort to rival this, and Lords of the Rings online, which is arguably a more popular setting in modern culture, cannot even begin to mount a challenge. The question for me is: can any FR-based computer game hope to be a smash hit? There's no problem with the background material. The general success of FR-based novels (especially those featuring "that" drow) is proof enough of that. The game itself needs to be especially good, but does that mean sacrificing the pen and paper rules conversions, or parts of the canonical setting, at the risk of upsetting loyal fans? Could a successful game incorporate the Forgotten Realms setting without even being based around D&D rules? There's no doubt that the video gaming market is far larger than the fantasy role-playing market, so if Wizards could grant the FR license to any gaming company and demand that they produce a game, who would it be? Would it go for World of Warcraft's throat, or follow a similar line to Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights? What's the best setting in FR? Would it be a feasible way of increasing the popularity of FR products?
Dr_Tough 04-26-07, 07:32 PM	Well, personally, I don't think there's a (good) way to run an MMO in Forgotten Realms. First off, it would have to use D&D rules. Second, FR is kind of screwed up as it is with just novels driving its history. An MMO would just make it worse. You'd have to set it in a completely new campaign world and use the D&D name for flavor, background and to attract players. That way one could make some decent MMO rules and then just say "different campaign world, different rules". And, I don't don't think that its very easy to give WoW a run for its money. For starters it's still active, which means you have to make a game that's better, not merely just as good to steal players. Also, MMO making companies won't for the love of God release their games for Mac users. Let me tell you, Mac users are one of the reasons for WoW's success, it is a killer app for that OS.
The Ubbergeek 04-26-07, 08:03 PM	First, FR games HAD been successes. Witness said big names - even non-d&d players know them. And second, I should note that WoW is not fully canon, in the sense that its very open, of course. A D&D MMO would be in a similar situation.
Dielzen 04-26-07, 10:57 PM	D&D Online can never really measure up to PnP rule, the world makes no difference. The other games start as a real-time ruleset and evolve from there, D&D starts from a turn-based ruleset and tries to adapt to a real-time environment. I played Stormreach, despite not being a fan of Eberron. I quit prior to the latest level cap increase, but I had 4 "capped" characters when I quit. One of the main problems with DDO is that which killed DAoC eventually -- lack of high-end content. DAoC makes up for this with a thriving PvP concept, which DDO can't compete with, cause that would require balancing classes against each other, which leads to screwing up characters. DDO was a good game, and I've been tempted to return to it with the latest level increase, but it's just a stagnant game once you hit the current level cap. The first EverQuest is still going fairly strong because of it's AA point system, and the huge amount of end-game raiding content. WoW has the raiding content. The other games which don't have the good end-game content slowly fade away. So no, FR or Mystara, makes no difference, it's what is offered. And PnP players will not carry a game if the MMO players think it's junk.
The Heretic 04-27-07, 09:26 AM	My thought is that D&D MMO's will continue to fail so long as they continue to retain the Table Top aura. Consider the following questions: 1) Why is it so important that we be able to see the dice rolling on our screen? 2)Why would we want to play a digital game that relies solely on rules developed for a pen and paper environment? Doesn't this seem arrogant? Isn't there greater utility available in computers? Its like saying to the entire industry that "We've allready got it all figured out, we've been doing it since 2000 on pen and paper." 3) Why would you publish a game that is inherently graphically inferior? It smacks of "D&D is a game of imagination, you shouldn't need slick graphics." Again, more arrogance. My proposed solutions? 1) If you're going to do it, do it to win. Don't try to be competitive, try to be dominating. 2) Understand that most people that play MMO's have never even looked on a set of polyhedral dice. 3) Understand that D&D (and FR) are bigger than ANY rules-set. Be innovative. Don't make it a digital copy of your table top game.
Renvale999 04-27-07, 09:59 AM	Personally I believe that a FR game could very easily be put into MMORPG game terms...Use the Neverwinter Night ruleset(IMO best one out there for 3.0-3.5 making certain adjustments so that any class could solo, but you're never going to be able to balance all the classes completely) and update the graphics...as far as keeping with canon...well not gonna happen boys and girls...but nothing says they could have some stuff come up. It would be cool to have a raid in Maemyrdra like in City of the Spider Queen. Use instance zones so that you can players use certain dungeons over and over again (Castle Spulzeer comes to mind). As far as level cap goes...I think you could simply make epic feats like special abilities that players have to spend XP for after 20th lvl. There is enough stuff in the FR over CR 20 that high level players wouldn't have a hard time finding quests to do. I don't know, but for me I would love to take a raiding group and kick the crap out of Fzoul Chembryl in Zhentil Keep....or Take 6 or seven guilds and raid the Barrens of Doom and Despair and take down Bane himself...crazy? yes, but a lot of fun too. And a good filler when we're not playing D&D lol. But that's just me.
The Ubbergeek 04-27-07, 11:33 AM	Heck, that would be cool. I'd like to see and explorate places like Thay, the Savage lands, Waterdeep, etc... On my pc. :)
Francius 04-27-07, 12:36 PM	The issue here is basicaly how the video games market measures up to the role playing tabletop one. It has been discussed in the D&D general forum quite a few. The fact is that TSR tried many times in the past to draw more income by putting its pen and paper worlds in virtual gaming form. Since the video games market has always been more profitable than the role-playing one, it's an understatement that a company could try its lack in it. Video games about role-playing campaign settings were thus pubblished to try and steal a portion (even small) of the aforementioned market. I don't think it's a bad fact at all; on the contrary, many successful Forgotten Realms video games provided a portal to the D&D boardgame world for video games (only) fans and augmented the number of role players. That being said, I think that role-playing games are better off the way they were designed to be: tabletop. Compared to the video games, tabletop RPGs are more fun, more creative, more immaginative and more social interactive than any MMO video game (or video game in general for that matter) will ever be. Thoughts?
Renvale999 04-27-07, 12:44 PM	That being said, I think that role-playing games are better off the way they were designed to be: tabletop. Compared to the video games, tabletop RPGs are more fun, more creative, more immaginative and more social interactive than any MMO video game (or video game in general for that matter) will ever be. Thoughts? Agreed, but I would like to having something to do while I'm not playing D&D that is FR...there is only so many times I can beat the Baldur's Gate trilogy on PC or find Neverwinter Nights modules to download. Unfortunetely, if they made an MMORPG for FR I think that it would be ruined by all the Teeny Boppers out there that ruin it for everyone else. I'm not saying all teenagers are retarded...but most of the ones I've run into in online game communities are selfish and stupid and tend to ruin those times that some of us are actually trying to "ROLE-PLAY" online. But again, that's just me.
Francius 04-27-07, 01:40 PM	Unfortunetely, if they made an MMORPG for FR I think that it would be ruined by all the Teeny Boppers out there that ruin it for everyone else. Yeah, tell me about it... I'm not saying all teenagers are retarded...but most of the ones I've run into in online game communities are selfish and stupid and tend to ruin those times that some of us are actually trying to "ROLE-PLAY" online. But again, that's just me. Actualy, I do not think that exists another way to role-play other than first person interaction in a real life environment. No-life teenagers or not, MMORPGs cannot give the role playing experience you demand. To role-play, you must be in a real, live contact with other persons. You should be able to see their faces, their eyes, hear the tone of their voices, see their body motion; heck - even get physical with them sometimes. The above picture I described just cannot be emulated with a small video screen, some virtual images picturing people, a few plastic buttons on a keyboard, dry HTML characters and a cable connection to the Internet. Like we say, there's nothing like the real thing.
Renvale999 04-27-07, 03:12 PM	Yeah, tell me about it... Actualy, I do not think that exists another way to role-play other than first person interaction in a real life environment. No-life teenagers or not, MMORPGs cannot give the role playing experience you demand. To role-play, you must be in a real, live contact with other persons. You should be able to see their faces, their eyes, hear the tone of their voices, see their body motion; heck - even get physical with them sometimes. The above picture I described just cannot be emulated with a small video screen, some virtual images picturing people, a few plastic buttons on a keyboard, dry HTML characters and a cable connection to the Internet. Like we say, there's nothing like the real thing. I agree, but I've gotten into some cool "role-play only" guilds on other MMORPG's, and I've had alot of fun. I'm not saying it's AS fun as playing D&D, but it can be alot of fun when half the group cancels and the D&D is for nill and you got the rest of Sunday morning, afternoon and evening with nothing planned. When I played Everquest, it was wonderful for those snowy days or entirely too hot to be outside days...I just wish there was an FR game like that, for all those days I just want to sit and vedge out.
Iakhovas 04-27-07, 08:19 PM	I am a big fan of online games and I would eagerly welcome any opportunity to explore Faerūn in 3D
Dark Wizard 04-27-07, 10:10 PM	2)Why would we want to play a digital game that relies solely on rules developed for a pen and paper environment? Doesn't this seem arrogant? Isn't there greater utility available in computers? Its like saying to the entire industry that "We've allready got it all figured out, we've been doing it since 2000 on pen and paper." Interestingly, the tabletop pen and paper version of World of Warcraft uses a d20 framework rather than one that resembles the computer MMO. The original Warcraft PnP RPG resembled D&D even more closely before they revised it upon the release of WoW. If a digital WoW went to d20 for its tabletop translation, D&D should use a system that works well in a digital game for its MMORPG presence. 3) Why would you publish a game that is inherently graphically inferior? It smacks of "D&D is a game of imagination, you shouldn't need slick graphics." Again, more arrogance. Very true, graphics are a big part of electronic gaming. I think just as important is the "look" of a game, a distinct art style goes a lot to give the game atmosphere. D&D games usually look rather generic, 3e art actually has more flavor than D&D game art and design, that's saying a lot. My proposed solutions? 1) If you're going to do it, do it to win. Don't try to be competitive, try to be dominating. I like the sound of that. :D 3) Understand that D&D (and FR) are bigger than ANY rules-set. Be innovative. Don't make it a digital copy of your table top game. I have to agree again. Considering WotC made d20 OGL, it's not exactly unique. People aren't going to play their electronic games for the d20 rules, they play it because of the "D&D," the feel of the game (adventures, tavern meetings, dungeon crawls, interaction), the famous monsters and the slaying thereof, the settings. WotC should know, they're quite adamant about certain copyrights for their product identity, but the rules set is available for free. So all they have to ask themselves is which one is disposable?
Harrowdroth 04-29-07, 01:30 AM	Actualy, This has occured to me before and yea, FR MMO would prolly cause more problems than anything else. I'd much rather see a Bethesda (Elderscrolls: oblivion anyone?) style game with A forgotten realms setting. I mean, WoW is good (I play a lot *hides*) but oblivion (imo) was one of the best fantasy games to date. Great graphics, ok story, and a lot of different NPCs. BACK TO THE POINT! a D&D MMO would prolly turn out something like Stormreach (didn't enjoy it much), And the "D&D" games made by atari have been less than userfriendly to play, actualy Neverwinter nights (original) was (and still is) fun. But NWN 2 didn't come anywhere close for me anyway.
Zandilar 04-29-07, 04:44 AM	Heya, I don't think I'd like to see an MMO made of the Forgotten Realms. I think something significant would be missing. The acronym might be MMORPG, but most MMOs out there very much lack RP. In fact, many MMOs have separate servers for those of us who like RPing, and a loud minority of the community loves to actively denigrate us... Stormreach didn't even have a designated RP server... I really can't tell you how many people just failed to even choose appropriate names for their characters. I can't tell you how devoid of life the environment was. You'd only ever interact with people in your party or your guild. Other than that, it was dead silent - no one really did much in the inns etc. THERE WAS NO ROLE PLAYING IN STORMREACH!!! Maybe it was because of the times I played. Maybe it was because I didn't join the right guild. But immersion was seriously lacking. I'd say Stormreach broke my heart, but that would be overly dramatic. However, an FR MMORPG would break my heart.
Harrowdroth 04-30-07, 03:34 AM	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That about sums it up. ya ever been in a WoW inn? 50% of the time theres people cybering on my server :eek:
Stigger 04-30-07, 07:25 AM	On one hand, I'd like to see a FR MMO in principle, simply, as others have said, to kill a few hours getting a bit of RP out between sessions. On the other hand, I can't quite reach the notion that it would be worth playing, that it wouldn't devolve into some senseless grind, or level race, or pursuit of uber loot, or any of the other annoying conventions that MMOs seem unable to get away from by and large. Add in the whole idea that somewhere along the line some nimrod who's never actually played D&D would decide that they needed to rework the classes to balance them better for the twits demanding a PVP environment, and it just mashes together in my head as some half-remembered nightmare I'm trying hard to forget... I'd really like to say that it would be a good thing. That it could come close to Pen and Paper, that it wouldn't be crap out of the box... and as much as it pains me, I find myself agreeing with Francius' general opinion that it will never equal tabletop RPing. I'd love it if that weren't the case, that a computer medium could serve as at least an adequate substitution for real life, but I can't quite make that leap based on what I know of MMOs. And before you even ask Francius, it doesn't pain me to be in agreement with you, it pains me that online gaming just isn't up to the challenge, and probably won't be in the foreseeable future. It would make some things a lot easier if it were. :)
Francius 04-30-07, 08:41 AM	And before you even ask Francius, it doesn't pain me to be in agreement with you, it pains me that online gaming just isn't up to the challenge, and probably won't be in the foreseeable future. It would make some things a lot easier if it were. :) Not only online gaming. MMORPGs and Computer role playing games (CRPGs) in general will never be even a far substitute for pure tabletop RPGs. I can make the above statement after being involved with CRPGs from as early as Nintendo's Gameboy 1990 "Gargoyle's Quest" and up to Bethesda's Oblivion and Blizzard's WoW. MMORPGs basicaly take the CRPG notion of a single player quest to a level in which a large number of players interact with one another simultanesously in the same setting. In other words, they are a subgenre of CRPGs. They do not have much of anything else to offer compared to CRPGs - other than the multiplayer action. To add more, MMORPGs are for the most part all about character class & strength development, and they include only a mere few roleplaying elements. Overall, CRPGS and MMORPGs cannnot even dream to come close to pure tabletop RPGs in terms of actual Role-playing, and the other reasons for that I already presented you with. So don't let it take you down that "online gaming just isn't up to the tabletop challenge". :raincloud It will never be.
Iakhovas 04-30-07, 09:19 AM	Online games like Everquest are not a good substitute for tabletop role-playing, but neither is tabletop role-playing a good substitute for online gaming. :P Not once in my 20 years of playing D&D have I had an opportunity to storm a dungeon with 100 (yes one-hundred) real life people and take down a dragon. But when I was playing EverQuest this was a nightly adventure with my guild. And let me tell you we were not always successful. Nothing builds bonds between fellow man, like a four hour corpse recovery at the bottom of some hell hole in Everquest. You learn from your mistakes and try again the next day. I'm not saying online games are better. I'm not even saying that online games have role-playing. But they do foster great friendships with people that enjoy the fantasy genre. And they can get your blood pumping far greater than any tabletop session I've ever experienced.
Francius 04-30-07, 09:30 AM	Online games like Everquest are not a good substitute for tabletop role-playing, but neither is tabletop role-playing a good substitute for online gaming. Tabletop RPGs do not need to be a substitute for any MMO or CRPG. Role playing gaming has been tabletop since its very start, so other forms of it(electronic and online) can only try to emulate it. I'm not saying online games are better. I'm not even saying that online games have role-playing. But they do foster great friendships with people that enjoy the fantasy genre. And they can get your blood pumping far greater than any tabletop session I've ever experienced. I completely and utterly disagree. :tongue: The greatest friendships are forged when these conditions are met: To role-play, you must be in a real, live contact with other persons. You should be able to see their faces, their eyes, hear the tone of their voices, see their body motion; heck - even get physical with them sometimes. The above picture I described just cannot be emulated with a small video screen, some virtual images picturing people, a few plastic buttons on a keyboard, dry HTML characters and a cable connection to the Internet. And for the history, I never had a greater and funnier time in the role-playing genre other than playing with my friends on a tabletop RPG. None CRPG (online or not) or a video game in general even came close to the aforementioned social experience.
Renvale999 04-30-07, 10:01 AM	And for the history, I never had a greater and funnier time in the role-playing genre other than playing with my friends on a tabletop RPG. None CRPG (online or not) or a video game in general even came close to the aforementioned social experience. Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Personally, I've made some very good friends online, just as good as friends around the RPG table. I once was in a guild on Everquest and nightly I grouped with a family(Mother, Father, son and daughter). We grouped almost every night and had ALOT of fun. Later on that year, I found out that they lived not 50 miles from where my parents lived. So, the next time I went out to see my parents, I dropped by their house and had dinner....we laughed and joked about EQ, found out that they as well play D&D in their house...probably one of the best nights of my life and I'll always remember it.
Ramenth 04-30-07, 01:53 PM	The Issue with Stormreach, in my mind at least, is not the setting. Its the fact that the basic mechancis of the game are awful. As for an MMORPG of The Forgotten Realms? Unless its considered non-cannon, it would kill the setting within two months. Its far too difficult to balance an evolving setting and powergamers on a grand scale. What would you do when people were having weekly Laroch Kills? Baldurs Gate and NWN(to A lesser Degree) capture the feel of D&D very well; and thus Market Forgotten Realms very well. Stormreach didn't feel like D&D. It felt like a bad crossbreeding between Diablo Two and Guildwars sin PVP. It's not a stable model for a game. What would need to happen for a working D&D MMORPG would be a new setting, build from the ground up with the idea that "this will be an MMORPG setting primarily". Feel wise it could be very similar to the Realms, but not exact (As there are things that just dont work.) By designing the setting from the ground up, with this change in mind, its possible to come closer to a working D&D setting. There are, however, still a few issues. D&D is not hack and slash in PnP (Usually). D&D in computer games tends to be. An MMORPG, however, is Hack and Slash almost by default. D&D is hard to balance around this, when playing in real time. For instance, a Level 1 wizard can cast all of what, four spells per day? (One in 2ED rules.). So what; You log on, fry four giant rats, and log out till the next day? NWN and the Infinity Engine games fix this by allowing players to rest. In NWN this works reasonably well; but low level wizards are still resting constantly. And at high levels, spell casters that can rest constantly can just spam 9th levle spells. As for Baldurs Gate, resting happened less often, and mechanically took 8 hours; this also retained the feel of D&D. In an MMORPG, however, neither of these work. At all. So a new system for low level advancement would need to be created; Probably something using Mana Bars and spells that work completely differently from Core D&D spellcasting. This idea works, but by this time one needs to wonder if its really D&D anymore. On the off chance any of your actually read this far, cudos, and if you want more information/to argue/me to shut up, feel free to PM me. :P I'm currently working on an MMORPG World Setting, and thus have given this topic far too much thought.
Zandilar 05-01-07, 03:00 AM	Heya, Don't get me wrong... I love MMORPGs, but they aren't RPGs. ;) In an MMORPG, however, neither of these work. At all. So a new system for low level advancement would need to be created; Probably something using Mana Bars and spells that work completely differently from Core D&D spellcasting. This idea works, but by this time one needs to wonder if its really D&D anymore. That is what Stormreach actually did. You had spell points based on your casting attribute, and could cast your spells until you ran out of mana, whereupon you need to either find a shrine to rest at, or rest at an inn. They solved the difference between wizards and sorcerers by making sorcerers get more mana per cha than wizards got per int, and I think they (sorcerers) were more restricted in what spells they could have.
Mecha_Pope 05-02-07, 10:59 AM	Time to shamelessly advertise!!!! (note, not an actual ad, as no one can possibly proffit from this);) Roleplaying online works just fine! Run to the store, and pick up your copy of NWN diamond edition for only $20.00 and head over the The Turmish lands, Karunth. The largest NWN, server, TTL is a roleplaying world with enough content to keep action oriented gamers occupied from levels 1-40! (It may just be who I game with, but I've had better RP here than in D&D :rolleyes: ) Look for Mecha Pope, or any of his charicters, William Grimsbane, NG Cleric/Fighter, Warpriest of Ilmatar, Human Vladimir Masonoff, LE Fighter, Human Rodrik Brassbeard, LG Fighter/Dwarven Defender, Dwarf Alternetivly, look for my mate Mad Potheos (sp?) He's great at helping out the new folks. Main charicter, Ganeleon the Scarred, Halfling weapon master.
Steelwind 05-03-07, 12:02 PM	I personnaly believe like it has been said before that using the current D&D rules is probably not the best idea for an MMO as it just doesnt blend really well. As to the "should FR have an MMO" question, I have mixed emotions about that one, sure I would love to go on raids in Undermountain and see how majestic the newly rebuilt Myth Drannor would be but I also feel like it would be somewhat cheapning our beloved setting. But if they did do it I would want a more WOW like rules system with reworked classes, mana points and all, this way even if it wasnt completely true to D&D it wouldnt be as atrocious as Stormreach was. Reworking it all would be a truely daunting task im sure but I for one would would love to play on a successful mutilclass capable system, which no MMO has accopmplished yet. Anyway its all kind of a moot point as I dont see wizards putting out a FR mmo anytime soon if ever.
fw190a8 05-05-07, 02:02 PM	I don't think it's about faithfully recreating the tabletop D&D system in a computer game. It's more about using the setting to create a rich online world. I think Steelwind summed it up: I would love to go on raids in Undermountain and see how majestic the newly rebuilt Myth Drannor would be I also agree with Harrowdroth when he writes... I'd much rather see a Bethesda (Elderscrolls: oblivion anyone?) style game with A forgotten realms setting. I don't dispute that the glory of the original Myth Drannor could never be created in a computer game as well as it exists in our imaginations thanks to the novels and the FR source material, but I don't think that is a reason not to try. A computer version of Myth Drannor would reach many, many times more people than a potential sourcebook on the subject. I'm sure there are people who would rather newcomers weren't encouraged to step into the Realms, because they think that it would be ruined by overpopulation, but for me, the more the merrier, and computer games are the way to go, but nobody has quite nailed it yet. Bioware came close, I think (Baldur's Gate II especially). I would not like to put it in as simple terms as 'evolve or die' but the more 'modern' the FR world can become, the more it will benefit, I think. Wizards have done well with the website, and I hope that they will push for more CRPGs, whether MMO (massively multiplayer online) or not. The D&D rules are less important than the setting. After all, how successful would the Drizzt novels have been if they were filled with things like: "Drizzt got a natural 20 on his THAC0 roll and stabbed the orc for 8 + 3 damage"? Wizards (and Ed and everyone else who have loyally adhered to the setting) have a responsibility to FR, but how much of that responsibility lies in defending the Realms against impurities, and how much lies in promoting it via 'modern' means?
Steelwind 05-06-07, 11:15 AM	fw190a8, well put my friend. I agree and think it is more about the setting than the rules that govern it.
Ramenth 05-07-07, 01:33 PM	Heya, Don't get me wrong... I love MMORPGs, but they aren't RPGs. ;) That is what Stormreach actually did. You had spell points based on your casting attribute, and could cast your spells until you ran out of mana, whereupon you need to either find a shrine to rest at, or rest at an inn. They solved the difference between wizards and sorcerers by making sorcerers get more mana per cha than wizards got per int, and I think they (sorcerers) were more restricted in what spells they could have. But the issue with this is, Spellcasting in D&D isnt at all ballanced around that. I havent played Stormreach, I admit, but IIRC you effectivly had to choose between being able to cast A third level spell or three first level spells. you can't ues the current spell break down with mana. At some point it breaks down. You really need to create a hybrid system with base magic using mana and then a higher level of spell casting represented by the Sorcerer/Wizard class. Edit: As for setting. Yeah, I agree. I think an MMO really would hurt the realms more than help them. The TES world would certaintly be interesting though.
Lord_Steve 05-07-07, 07:03 PM	I was introduced to the Forgotten Realms setting via the first Neverwinter nights and it still is the only FR game I play:( .....Oh what I would do to get a run at playing the actual board game....throwing dice and being able to use actual creativity.
Aysun 05-08-07, 11:37 PM	You know one thing that annoy me about MMOs in general is that people try to much to compare it with WoW saying that it's everything done right and compare the gameplay with other games, granted that Blizzard did something right with WoW, but WoW is far too restrictive on what ye can do in the game in my opinion. Lineage II have 14 millions subscriber compared to WoW 8 Millions and it is an excellent game granted that it has it's flaws like any other MMORPG. (just my two cent in saying that WoW is not the biggest MMORPG money maker on the market) So anyway for me a FR MMO would be no problem for me as long as they make the game integral to the FR Universe and yet seperate from the current story line. I think one way to see it would be like some sorts of a Spin-Off series or alternate universe(kind of a What if scenario that integrate the basic story line of the FR Franchises) along the line of Stargate-SG1 which produced a rather sucessfull spin-off Stargate: Atlantis. The setting is the heart of any game. So would a FR MMO work oh yes. FR main strenght is a setting that can immerse ye in the said universe, I mean Imagine how huge an FR MMORPG would be? for my part I would very much go into a 3d underdark and meet up with Jarlaxle or kill a few matron mothers or deface every temples dedicated to Lloth. That being said we all know that there is a lot more to do than just adventuring, like having a constant source of income, be it farming and i do mean the grow yer own vegetables kind of farming, or those mundane little professions about, those a just a few example. Next we have customization, be it characters stats, appearance or Items, I like to have my avatar look differently from others people avatars. I mean come on haven't video games evolved enought so that we could at least have a feature that let us choose the color or the armor clothing we wear? or why does my UBER powerfull and rare sword look like the 1 000 000 uber rare powerfull swords other people have? I don't ask that the basic game offer that feature on release but with expension and upgrades some game devloper could at least try. Environment: where is my falling snow, my storms? and why does that at night I can see where i'm going with out a light? Gameplay: don't try to hash the stuff into a dice system be creative, ye can't never trully put the experience of pen and paper in a video seamesly but one could at leats make it less painfull. If one really tought about it making a FR: MMORPG wouldn't be that difficult if people would really brainstorm it and think less of how much money it win for a franchise and think more on how toi make the game a joyfull experiance for everyone, them many many people would be happy.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:43 AM	Just the idea of FR in an MMO makes me shudder even harder than an FR movie. People already come around with their "LoLz I killt dri'z'z't'11!11" We'd just be inviting it on ourselves if we supported this.
Stigger 05-09-07, 09:07 AM	Already saw that one in the BG series really... was annoying then, would probably be even more annoying now.
Aysun 05-09-07, 09:19 AM	Ghee why ye guys has to be like that, it's a FACT of life that no matter which MMORPG is going to be released we will always get some of the immature crowd. So the basis of just not having a FR MMORPG because of that is a pointless argument.
Stigger 05-09-07, 09:27 AM	And that fact is what turns my stomach just thinking of it really... I don't want to have the Realms leaving a bad taste in my mouth just because some little prick decides to be himself. I can control who I play with and such in tabletop games, but MMOs are just the luck of the draw from a semi-stacked deck.
fw190a8 05-09-07, 01:22 PM	I would rather keep the thread on its original course instead of descending into a criticism of the stereotypical MMO teenager. Imagine how huge an FR MMORPG would be? That's one consideration I suppose. The playable area in Oblivion was around 16 square miles (source) (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/t/theelderscrollsIVoblivion/20051110-fe.htm). The area of the World of Warcraft (WoW) game (before the Burning Crusade expansion) is around 80 square miles (source) (http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-big-is-azeroth.html). Faerūn is big: around 14 million square miles (source) (http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090512). More important than size is detail really. The second Elder Scrolls game (Daggerfall) had a playable area of around 161,000 square kilometres (source) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_II:_Daggerfall#Game_wo rld), but it was mostly randomly generated, leading to great repetition and no real depth to the gameplay. Clearly any attempt to computerize Faerūn would have to be done on a tiny scale. The Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights series of games all used small areas, linked by imaginary travel, rather than an unbroken map like Oblivion or WoW. Even so, creating these games must have been like treading on a whole load of eggshells. Trying to create a faithful representation of the Realms must have been a tough challenge, because that version of the Realms is now carved into stone in the minds of a huge number of people. When I started this thread I was of a significantly different opinion than I am now. There are a lot of factors involved here, and in some ways, having such a rich and detailed history is actually holding the Realms back from being a continuing computer game success.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:59 PM	Ghee why ye guys has to be like that, it's a FACT of life that no matter which MMORPG is going to be released we will always get some of the immature crowd. So the basis of just not having a FR MMORPG because of that is a pointless argument. No, it's not. The less contact I have with any such immature gamers, the better. And such contact is less likely to occur if an FR MMO is made. (I refuse to call them MMORPGs.) I already deal with the WoW BS in real life. It would sicken me to see something I actually enjoy for what it is (the setting) be made a mockery of itself in an attempt to pull in cash from the masses at large. Also: I would rather keep the thread on its original course instead of descending into a criticism of the stereotypical MMO teenager. Discussing the idea of something while trying to take it outside of society, into a vacuum of pure probability, is illogical, because how the idea (in this case, an FR MMO) would evolve would depend entirely upon the population at large. So the discussion of your typical MMO teenager is entirely topical, even if there's not a lot to be said about it. When I started this thread I was of a significantly different opinion than I am now. There are a lot of factors involved here, and in some ways, having such a rich and detailed history is actually holding the Realms back from being a continuing computer game success. I think that's an accurate analysis, and a rather telling suggestion of the nature of both the Realms and MMO gaming in general. The only kind of MMO I'd like would be one that was basically completely VR and fully functional, and with numerous dedicated and informed moderators to act as DM. Then it would be like LARPing, only even geekier and with much better props.
Lord_Steve 05-10-07, 12:34 PM	I agree....an online MMORPG for the realms would suck....people bringing in modern terms and such......I really cant picture an elf saying "Yo man whazzup!?!? Let's go pop us some exp points in the dungeon over there!" ........Not to mention all that nasty disgusting chat language *shudders*