Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drunken_god 04-16-04, 05:04 AM	i am about to run a campaign where Bane dares Mask to steal an artifact of Asmodeus, (i am thinking of having him steal the ruby rod, but I'm not sure yet) after Mask steals it Bane tries to take it from him, but he hides it among one of his mortal clerics who is one of the players before bane could get it, Bane finds out where it is and so does Asmodeus, and they both try to get it. i was wondering what kind of forces could Bane and Asmodeus send after the players what other artifacts could Bane be interested in that Asmodeus possesses the players are moon elf former assassin half drow bard/cleric of Mask Pixie archer human Paladin of Lathander human mage
Orion the Raven 04-16-04, 05:08 AM	I thought the rod destroyed any non-deity or powerful planar being which held it? Back in my day, any true deity could have just taken what they wanted from Asmo and then kicked him like Charlie Murphy kicked Rick James. I suppose if a mortal has the rod, they could be tempted into using it, causing allsort of havoc for the PCs, and neither Asmo, Bane, or Mask could get to it right away since they are all busy with each other. Maybe the cleric uses it to take over a city, then an army of fieds comes and tries to take over, and then the larger powers of the world get involved and soon there is a huge war brewing with the PCs tryng to diffuse the situation before Armageddon breaks loose.
Mirtek 04-16-04, 06:25 AM	How comes that a paladin is in the same group with a cleric of Mask? With a CE cleric of Mask:confused: BTW: Won't Asmodeus be in danger of an attempt of one of the other eight lords trying to replace him while he can no longer count on the power of his rod. Asmodeus losing the symbol of his rulership would be an open invitation for the eight other lords.
Taelohn 04-16-04, 02:31 PM	If you go by storyline canon and/or common sense, rather than his Book of Vile Darkness stats, Asmodeus should infact be more powerful than Mask or even Bane. Making the archfiends so weak compared to deities was WotC's biggest oversight in 3E. This sums the problem up well; http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=220492&perpage=30&pagenumber=1
Mirtek 04-16-04, 06:05 PM	Originally posted by Taelohn If you go by storyline canon and/or common sense, rather than his Book of Vile Darkness stats, Asmodeus should infact be more powerful than Mask or even Bane. It's open to argue what common sense should say about this matter, so about the storyline canon: Which one? The 1e storyline canon saying he's equal to Mask and weaker than Bane? The 2e storyline canon saying he's stronger than Mask and app. equal to Bane? The 3e/3.5e storyline canon saying how incredible weaker than Mask and Bane he is?
Taelohn 04-16-04, 07:12 PM	Ah, common sense may not have been the best choice of words; logic may be more appropriate. We're talking about a being that rules an entire plane of nine layers, each infinitely large, and answers to no god. None of them dare challenge his rule; if anything, they seem afraid of him. And it's most definitely not since he controls a lot of other devils, as the afforementioned thread will easily prove - Asmodeus himself (and to a lesser extent, the other Lords of the Nine) must possess such might that even greater deities will not cross him. Otherwise, there's nothing to stop any number of deities from charging in and taking the place. While even the 1E/2E stats may not quite live up to what I'm implying (to say nothing of what they did in 3E), it seems to me that making the King of all Hell so weak compared to his contemporaries is essentially a major plothole.
Bifford 04-16-04, 07:49 PM	thought the rod destroyed any non-deity or powerful planar being which held it? It hits them with an inflict critical wounds. I don't know whether it does this just once, or every round that an unauthorised creature wields it (probably the latter). This feature can be countered by a death ward spell. Won't Asmodeus be in danger of an attempt of one of the other eight lords trying to replace him while he can no longer count on the power of his rod. Probably not. Looking at the rod's description in the BoVD, it doesn't quite seem like the lynchpin of his power (though it would make him very tough in a fight, perhaps allowing him to better fend off assassination attempts). what kind of forces could Bane and Asmodeus send after the players Asmodeus would probably send one or more of his Spark Hunters after the PCs. The Spark Hunters are six elite hamatula mortal hunters; his personal troubleshooters. Bane may not be able to send and devilish servants. I think all devils serve Asmodeus first and foremost (they are merely "lent" to the deities of Baator), so he could order them not to help Bane. Bane may have to fall back on his mortal servitors. I doubt this would bring Armageddon. Both Bane and Asmodeus would try to discretely retrieve the rod using elite agents. Unleashing armies would sow chaos, and disrupt their other agendas on Toril. The theft of the rod may be an embarassment to Asmodeus, but I strongly doubt the other Lords of the Nine will dare move against him.
Drunken_god 04-17-04, 03:51 AM	could you give me any information on the spark hunters
Bifford 04-17-04, 04:08 AM	There are six Spark Hunters, all advanced hamatulas (barbed devils) with levels in the Mortal Hunter PrC (detailed in the BoVD). Asmodeus uses them only for operations on the Material Plane. They have a number of powers specifically designed to combat mortals, including Mortal Hunting (similar to a ranger's Favored Enemy, but with all mortals), Smite Mortal (ala paladin's Smite Evil) and Detect Mortals (ala detect undead).
AvengedMutablegenus 04-17-04, 03:30 PM	well first off Bane doesn't seem very Daring... And asmodeous doesn't have much to do with Toril, you're better off making it Mephistospho or someone like Baal. And anyways if it's Asmodeous it can be pretty much an evil epic or artifact item. Like a black robe of the archmagi or a staff of power. Or like a staff of the magi or like a +5 Bleeding Lawful Evil longsword or like an item from the regalia of evil and the force of the demon armys really depends on how mad he is, it could go anywhere from a couple Dretchs or an army of devilish fiends led by him and other generals. But chances are it would be like 1 pit fiend OR 1 Balor OR 1 succubus OR 1 Nafashoe that is leading an army of 1d6 regiments of 30 Dretchs with a unit of 20 Babeu's and 1d3 air units of 10 flying low level devil units (take your pick) sorry if those units are demon and not devil, in my games, they're the same, i don't care enough to discern them EDIT: Oh yeah and Bane would send an army of like 2nd and 1st level fighters led by a high level paladin/blackguard of Bane riding an adult black dragon (maybe the chosen of Bane). Also a couple groups of clerics and if need be armys upon armys of peasents like a couple million of them. And they'd have a catapult of ammuntion of dead (and some dying or still alive) people. Oh yeah and i doubt that bane would want a weopon of any sort because he already has that nasty gauntlet, come to think of it, I'm going to include this in my game. It'll be the regalia of evil (just the orb). And Bane wouldn't really want the Ruby rod because it's sort of exculsive to demons and it would be really un-bane like to use another evil god's weopons
Hordak 04-18-04, 09:15 AM	In my game Asmodeus is the same as in 2e's guide to hell (therefor is his rod even mightier). Pretending yours is the same, Mask would be in more than big trouble. But Asmodeus would want to keep it as quiet as possible that he had his rod stolen(that sounds kinda..:) ) at the same time it is such a valuable weapon to him that the matter would hav to be put in to the most capable hands... maybe one of the dark eight? or a couple?
ZeroEffect 04-19-04, 12:08 PM	Why would any god want to rush in and take Hell? Hell is not a particularly nice place. Even the devils don't like it there. That's why they're always meddling with the prime material planes and never want to be banished back to their home plane.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-19-04, 09:09 PM	Two things: Using the 2e Planescape/Guide to Hell material: Regardless of the disparate takes those two give to Asmodeus, they'll both concur that Mask wouldn't make it. Frankly I could see Mask arriving and being given a rod willingly by the Lord of the 9th. What does Mask do with it? And what plot does the king of Nessus have sliding into motion? Using the 3e material only: he's no longer deific or non deific w/ deific level power, and the 'gigantic serpent form' is only a rumor. Still, the level of political power within Baator that he wields, and the fact that the deities have to on some level work with the fiends means that no deity with a sane mind is going to do something that petty and that insanely whimsical to Asmodeus even if they could. For whatever reasons, Bane won't or can't make that dare, and Mask would be nuts to accept it. Any sort of mucking around the politics of Baator will draw other deities into it all and result in ugly repurcusions on the followers of the offending deity. Maybe not immediately, but eventually and in such a way that it would happen at the worst possible time for them.
ZeroEffect 04-19-04, 09:23 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Two things: Using the 2e Planescape/Guide to Hell material: Regardless of the disparate takes those two give to Asmodeus, they'll both concur that Mask wouldn't make it. Frankly I could see Mask arriving and being given a rod willingly by the Lord of the 9th. What does Mask do with it? And what plot does the king of Nessus have sliding into motion? That's a great idea! A plot within a plot. Asmodeus believing that he is manipulating Mask and Mask believing that he has manipulated Asmodeus. Did Bane actually initiate the theft through a dare? Who is the true mastermind? Maybe introduce another meddler in the shadows, unbeknownst to Mask and Asmodeus and Bane? The PCs stumble into the situation and muck up the plans. Bane has the Zhentarim at his disposal. He also has followers throughout other evil organizations in the Realms (such as Thay, dragons, etc.) Asmodeus has devil minions and mortal followers. They could be anyone due to their highly deceptive nature. There are some sample minions in the BoVD.
AvengedMutablegenus 04-19-04, 10:03 PM	Asmodeous would win, he has hell behind him, well it acutally depends, Asmodeous's horde would bet Bane's horde, but Bane would kill asmodeous, if it was like a duel
woodrow 04-19-04, 11:17 PM	I think everyone is missing an important fact, A PALADIN of lathander is working with a cleric of mask? This is kinda impossible because even if a worshipper of lathander some how maninged to work with a cleric of mask, a paladin by definiition cant, it simply violates to many of his codes of ethics. Oh and i would also like to remind people that Asimodorius is the lord of HELL not the abyss he ccant control demons just devils. Also i am pretty sure as lord of hell he is not also the lord of all devils so they will give first alaegiance to bane over asmiodius. also it deos reaptidly say in everything that the rulers of hell are only near diety power
AvengedMutablegenus 04-19-04, 11:24 PM	Originally posted by woodrow Also i am pretty sure as lord of hell he is not also the lord of all devils so they will give first alaegiance to bane over asmiodius. You my friend, are blantly un-informed, Faerun is an alternate material plane, As much as the devils are choatic, they still HAVE to do what Asmodeous says, he rules them like sheep. Look imagine this, you and your group of friends that gets along most of the time but sometimes you have quarrels over who's boss... and then theres this mean bully type who steal a CD player from the "Boss" of your group? Now what the hell would you do? Just be like hey, i'm going with the bully (Bane) asmiodius. Oh yeah, and nice spelling.......
Taelohn 04-19-04, 11:31 PM	As much as the devils are choatic, they still HAVE to do what Asmodeous says, he rules them like sheep. Devils are always lawful evil, not chaotic.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-19-04, 11:35 PM	Originally posted by woodrow Oh and i would also like to remind people that Asimodorius is the lord of HELL not the abyss he ccant control demons just devils. Also i am pretty sure as lord of hell he is not also the lord of all devils so they will give first alaegiance to bane over asmiodius. also it deos reaptidly say in everything that the rulers of hell are only near diety power Yes the mixing of demon and devil got under my skin too, but I ignored it. Baatezu and Tanar'ri are like TNT and fire, mix and they explode. As Lord of Baator he is indeed the figure to which all Baatezu give their allegiance. The other 8 Lords of the 9 might give lip service to him, or only follow his orders grudgingly, but the rank and file Baatezu will disobey anything their immediate lords say if ordered by the Lord of Nessus. Yes, that includes acting counter to the orders of a deity in many cases, Bane included. 3e in general watered down the Archdevils from their deity level status in some earlier editions. In Planescape (2e) some Archfiends were true deities, others were not. However all of them had a connection to their respective plane/layer that gave them power over it of extremely wide ranging scope. They couldn't go toe to toe with a true deity necessarily, but the deities also stayed out of the affairs of the fiends almost uniformly except for some noted exceptions. Prince Levistus, Lord of the 5th of Baator was and is in a conflict with Set and Sekolah over the respective size of both of those deity's domains that sit upon his layer of Baator. The Lords of the 9 in Planescape were not quite deities, though Dispater for instance had avatars. Asmodeus was never in fact named by name in PS, but was known to be utterly, supremely powerful in Baator itself to the point that the deities didn't mess with him for whatever reasons (power issues, political issues, uncertainly on their part, etc). The 2e (non Planescape) 'Guide to Hell' went off into left field and claimed that Asmodeus was a gigantic serpent and fallen greater deity. I don't like it, and there's some severe problems with the information that book presented in meshing with the PS material. Some people like it, many ignore it. Judge yourself. 3e gave Asmo stats (be they him or just an avatar you judge), and relegated the 'Guide to Hell' stuff as simply rumors for each individual DM to handle as they felt was appropriate. I liked that take. 3e FR of course goes off in a totally different level with the planes, but it takes Baator and The Abyss almost unchanged from the Great Wheel cosmology of Planescape (which obviously I still use, as do many folks).
Gemstone 04-27-04, 09:44 AM	I don't know what you think, but I believe that both Bane and Mask could go toe on toe with Asmodeus and win... Mask would have a pretty hard time, but with a bit of luck and trickery, he would win. Bane would like... crush Asmodeus if Asmodeus isn't just plain lucky.
Sammael_the_Chosen 04-27-04, 02:54 PM	This thread = yet another proof of why statting powers and archfiends is a very bad idea.
Duke Lenethar 05-04-04, 02:31 PM	Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen This thread = yet another proof of why statting powers and archfiends is a very bad idea. The group I DM for cannot stop arguing over who are the most powerful deities, based on a load of stats that clog up the F&P sourcebook. A new guy (very well-versed in the game though) believes Asmodeus to be a greater deity, and tries to make up special rules for him, stating that "because he is the lord of hell he should be more powerful than a god"... The guy's obsession with "evil>good all the time because I think so" is really wearing thin. He hasn't played yet, and he may not at all... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: They shouldn't have stats for these guys, just story. Make Faiths and Pantheons more of a book about the churches and their followers.
Gemstone 05-04-04, 04:19 PM	They shouldn't have stats for these guys, just story. Make Faiths and Pantheons more of a book about the churches and their followers. Well, I almost agree. It's okay if they make up stats for the dieties, but you are damn right when you say that they should have put more info about the churches and their clerics in the FP book... I mean, I know almost everything that there is to know about Bane (for example, I don't know anything about him in reality) but I have no idea of how his clerics work... Also, about Asmodeus. I think his power varies pretty much since he constantly lose and pick up souls that he can use for power. Also, I think he is pretty much more powerful than any diety except AO and some other really strong ones (like Moradin och Corelleion) when he is on the ninth layer of hell. His power must be like doubled down there... But about the ruby rod... Why not make up some original devils that Asmodeus send after the players? And why not make some devils that actually look and act like "real" devils does. Perhaps Asmodeus would send his favorite henchmens son after the PC's so he can prove himself or something like that. It would make a pretty interesting plot when the PC's find out that they will get a greater demon lord as arch enemy if they slay his son :D