| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Nighttfall07-08-04, 09:05 PM | And can we get some info on it please? |
| Kuje3107-08-04, 09:10 PM | Should have my copy morrow or the weekend. I've heard technically the street date isn't until morrow..... |
| Nighttfall07-08-04, 09:11 PM | Well just wondering since someone on the En World boards already has theirs. Just figured I pop this out while I'm considering what to spend my paycheck on. (Only a little. I got to save for the future.) |
| Kuje3107-08-04, 09:12 PM | Well here's a teaser. :) http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2830 |
| Nighttfall07-08-04, 09:39 PM | Bah. I'm better off waiting to buy a copy. :p |
| Mr. Wilson07-08-04, 10:17 PM | Si, senor, I have a copy in my hands. The creator race for the Serpants, the Sarrukh, are an interesting read. I find the CR for them a tad high, however. Needless to say, I haven't read the entire book (I've just had it for about three hours) and I'm going to work in about half an hour, but I like what I've read so far. By the way, the art on pages 7 and 135.....makes me fondly remember artwork from 2E. More art like that, less anime men, IMHO. Toodles. |
| Zigra07-08-04, 10:34 PM | I just bought it today. Good book overall. It's about time we got a book that goes in-depth with the non-draconic reptilian races. However, there is one GIGANTIC gripe I have. This book finally discloses why we haven't gotten any 3E stats for Jazirian (the couatl deity). According to this book, Merrshaulk killed her shortly after the World Serpent fragmented. Now, the couatls either worship the Maztican deity Qotal, or Ubtao. Unbelievable. Did the authors ever bother to read the 2E information on Jazirian to see just how absolutely ridiculous that is? That's even worse than downgrading Io to an intermediate deity. |
| Shemeska the Marauder07-09-04, 02:29 AM | Originally posted by Zigra However, there is one GIGANTIC gripe I have. This book finally discloses why we haven't gotten any 3E stats for Jazirian (the couatl deity). According to this book, Merrshaulk killed her shortly after the World Serpent fragmented. Now, the couatls either worship the Maztican deity Qotal, or Ubtao. Unbelievable. Did the authors ever bother to read the 2E information on Jazirian to see just how absolutely ridiculous that is? That's even worse than downgrading Io to an intermediate deity. Yay! Less fuel for the Jazirian/Ahriman fanboys! FR's planar cosmology/catastrophy finally does something I like! http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif Also it seems like they're going with the World Serpent mythology rather than the 'twin serpents of law' idiocy of 2e's Guide to Hell. Thank goodness. |
| Dargoth07-09-04, 03:28 AM | If you have SK can you post the contents page please? |
| Mr. Wilson07-09-04, 07:39 AM | sure, this may take away, so I'll post it in chapters. Contents of Serpent Kingdom, Introduction and chapter 1 Introduction........................ 4 Abbreviations 4 What You need to Play 4 The Progenitors 5 Scaleless ones 5 Scaled ones 5 The Insidious Threat 6 The Ideal 6 Covert Control 6 Chapter 1: Yuan-Ti...............8 Overview 8 Description 8 Purebloods 8 Halfbloods 8 Abominations 8 Anathemas 9 Other Yuan-Ti subraces 9 Racial History 9 Outlook 9 Yuan-ti Society 10 Yuan-ti Characters 17 Purebloods 17 Tainted ones and Broodguards 17 Magic of the Yuan Ti 18 Deities of the Yuan Ti 18 Sseth, the Slitherer Supreme 19 Relations with other races 20 Yuan-Ti Equipment 21 Yuan-Ti Encounters 21 Ready to Use Villians and Allies 21 |
| Mr. Wilson07-09-04, 07:45 AM | Chapters 2 through 4 Chapter 2: Nagas 24 Overview 24 Description 24 Racial History 25 Outlook 26 Naga Society 26 Naga Characters 26 Magic of the Nagas 27 Naga Deities 27 Other Deities worshipped by the Nagas 28 Relations with other Races 28 Naga Equipment 28 Naga Encounters 28 Ready to Use Villians and Allies 28 Chapter 3: Lizards 32 Asabis 32 Fire Newts 35 Khaastas 38 Lizard Kings 41 Troglodytes and Trens 44 Lizard Race Encounters 47 Chapter 4: Hidden Folk 49 Ophidians 49 Pterafolk 50 |
| Dargoth07-09-04, 07:55 AM | Cool |
| Mr. Wilson07-09-04, 07:57 AM | Chapter 5, the next two are big, so they get their own post. Chapter 5: Sarrukh 54 Overview 54 Description 54 Racial History 54 Outlook 56 Sarrukh Society 57 Relationships 57 Life Cycle 57 Organization 57 Slavery 57 The Scaled Races 58 Dwellings 58 Sarrukh Characters 58 Magic of the Sarrukh 59 Deities of the Sarrukh 59 Sacrifice 59 The Fragmentation of the World Serpent 59 Relations with Other Races 60 Sarrukh Equipment 60 Sarrukh Encounters 60 Pil'it'ith 60 Chapter 6: Monsters 62 Amphisbaena 62 Deathcoils 63 Dinosaur 64 Ceratosaur 64 Pteranadon 65 Stegosaurus 66 Jaculi 66 Lizard King/Queen 68 Lycanthrope, Wereserpent 69 Mlarraun 70 Muckdweller 71 Naga 72 Banelar Naga 72 Bone Naga 73 Sample Bone Naga 74 Faerunian Ha-naga 75 Iridescent Naga 76 Nagahydra 77 Nifern 79 Sarrukh(Progenitor Race) 80 Serpentflesh Golem 81 Snakes 83 Dung Snake 83 Glacier Snake 84 Reed Snake 84 Sewerm 85 Tree Python 86 Whipsnake 87 Tren 87 Yuan-Ti Holy Guardian 88 Yuan-Ti Mageslayer 90 |
| Mr. Wilson07-09-04, 08:05 AM | Chapters 7 and 8 Chapter 7: Realms 92 Hlondeth (City of Serpents) 92 Isstosseffifil (Land of the Lost Sea) 95 Lapaliiya 98 Najara 104 Okoth 113 Samarach 116 Serpentes 118 Surkh 122 Tashalar,The 124 Thindol 128 Other Holdings 132 Chhultenger, The 132 Ilimar 132 Kethid 132 Lhesper 132 Nagalands,The 133 Peaks of Flame 133 Slitherswamp,The 133 Skullport 134 Chapter 8: Yuan-Ti Campaign 136 DMing to a storyline 136 The Insidious Plot 137 Slithering into a New Area 137 Into the Open 138 PCs in the Middle 138 Avenging Snakes 138 Religious Differences 139 The Old Trick 139 Orders of the Faith 139 Snake Companions 139 Familiars 140 Secret Organizations 140 Major Yaun-Ti NPCs 140 Zstulkk Ssarmn 142 Nhyris D'Hothek 143 |
| Dargoth07-09-04, 08:12 AM | Originally posted by Mr. Wilson Nhyris D'Hothek 143 Hmmm Our friend with the Crown of Horns did get detailed |
| Mr. Wilson07-09-04, 08:15 AM | To finish this thing off.... Chapter 9:Feats 144 Feat Desriptions 144 Chapter 10: Equipment 148 Armor 148 Weapons 149 Special Substances 149 Poisons 149 Lizardfolk Poisons 149 Yuan-Ti Poisons 149 Osssra 149 Magic Items 151 Weapons 152 Rings 153 Wondrous Items 153 Major Artifact Descriptions 153 Yuan-Ti Grafts 154 Acquiring a Yuan-Ti Graft 154 Chapter 11: Spells 155 Chapter 12: Prestige Classes 159 Ancient Master 159 Coiled Cabalist 161 Fang of Sseth 162 Master of Vipers 163 Naga Overlord 165 Serpent Slayer 166 Chapter 13: Adventures 168 Black Viper Altar 168 Adderposts 171 Sarrukh Ruin 177 The Defiled Temple of the World Serpent 181 Appendix 186 Historical Eras of Faerun 186 Deities of the Scaled Ones 187 Tables New Feats 145 Armor 148 Exotic Weapons 149 Special Substances 149 Poisons 150 The Ancient Master 160 The Coiled Cabalist 161 The Fang of Sseth 163 The Master of Vipers 164 The Naga Overlord 165 The Serpent Slayer 167 Deities of the Scaled Ones pages 188-189 Racial Traits Table 1 190 Racial Traits Table 2 191 Whew. That took longer than I thought....well, enjoy. :D |
| Dargoth07-09-04, 08:27 AM | Thanks Wilson I reposted it over at Candlekeep Any thing to add Eric? I see you lurking Eric! :D Looks like the Saurials didnt make it in Wilson: Whats the write up for Nhyris D'Hothek like? |
| ericlboyd07-09-04, 08:37 AM | The Serpent Sibyl is in there too (not sure if she was included in the TOC or not, but she's in there with Nhyris and Zstulkk, IIRC.) --Eric |
| Nighttfall07-09-04, 05:35 PM | Well that was extremely helpful. Thanks Mr. Wilson. I still might get this book...but then again maybe not. I was hoping for more info on other races. |
| Kuje3107-09-04, 06:04 PM | Originally posted by Dargoth Wilson: Whats the write up for Nhyris D'Hothek like? [/B] He lost the crown. :( He's listed as a pure blood yuan-ti fighter3/horned harbinger 1 |
| DRdrizzt13beauOW07-09-04, 06:37 PM | Originally posted by Dargoth Looks like the Saurials didnt make it in :mad: :( awww i really wanted more info on the saurials....:( |
| Dargoth07-09-04, 07:31 PM | Originally posted by Kuje31 He lost the crown. :( He's listed as a pure blood yuan-ti fighter3/horned harbinger 1 Any idea where the Crown went to? |
| Kuje3107-09-04, 07:36 PM | Originally posted by Dargoth Any idea where the Crown went to? Doesn't say, just says he lost it when he fleed to the Underdark and then to the surface. |
| Nighttfall07-09-04, 07:46 PM | It's probably on some former Cyricist head now a confirmed Mykrulite. |
| Mr. Wilson07-09-04, 08:04 PM | Originally posted by ericlboyd The Serpent Sibyl is in there too (not sure if she was included in the TOC or not, but she's in there with Nhyris and Zstulkk, IIRC.) --Eric Indeed, she's not listed in the TOC, but I was pleased to see she made the cut. I was expecting Nhyris D'Hothek to be a tad bit more, but oh well. |
| Bela Reborn07-10-04, 01:07 AM | Hmmmm. Judging by the art gallery for Seprent Kingdoms, the Saurials are certainly in there. 2 nice shots of them, one of the races, and one of their villiage. |
| soulthief07-10-04, 02:18 AM | Questions for those who have SK. Whats the tren ecl and I saw a picture of the whip of fangs do you have stats?:D |
| warlockco07-10-04, 02:32 AM | Go here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=4) for full stats on a Tren. |
| warlockco07-10-04, 02:56 AM | Sorry to say that those pics of the Saurials are a bit misleading, since I can't find them anywhere in my SK. Maybe Eric L. Boyd could make a comment on this? Truthfully after quickly skimming the book, it can be argued both ways on them being in this book and them not being in this book. |
| Gez07-10-04, 10:08 AM | Saurials are a very minor species within the Realms. They're always the first to get cut. Not in Monsters of Faerūn, not in Races of Faerūn, not in Serpent Kingdoms... That said, now that art has been commissioned for them, so they'll end up published. It seems doubtful they would be in MM3, so I don't know where they'll get inserted, but they'll be published. |
| Lord_BloodMoon07-10-04, 12:47 PM | WoTC seems to have a habit of putting art in the online gallery that doesn't appear in the book, and then using that art later. Just look at the MMII gallery. Several monsters listed in that gallery appear in FF. Anyhoo, one question. Are the scalykind and such statted out as PC races? Or did we leave them DM side just with monster stats? One of the few things I'm dreading now from WoTC is more PC races. I'm up to around 50 I think. (Counting PHB, XPsiHB, OA, RoF, Eberron, Underdark, Unnapproachable East, etc.) Yes, I do play with racial restrictions. However, I think that the PC horde is getting rather excessive and can be viewed as a waste of space that could be dedicated to something else. |
| ssvegeta55507-10-04, 01:23 PM | Originally posted by Dargoth Looks like the Saurials didnt make it in That really makes me mad. :mad: The only reason I would get this book is to get info on the Saurials. I was hoping to find out if they were the creators of the nether scolls. I doubt I'll pick up the book now, only my love of yuan-ti might get me to buy it. |
| Kuje3107-10-04, 01:41 PM | Originally posted by ssvegeta555 That really makes me mad. :mad: The only reason I would get this book is to get info on the Saurials. I was hoping to find out if they were the creators of the nether scolls. I doubt I'll pick up the book now, only my love of yuan-ti might get me to buy it. How can the saurials be the creator of the nether scrolls when they have only come to Faerun only about twenty years ago. Remember Moander only brought them to Faerun before the ToT's. Any how there's always the article in Dragon for them as well as the same article on the WOTC site. |
| ssvegeta55507-10-04, 02:05 PM | Originally posted by Kuje31 How can the saurials be the creator of the nether scrolls when they have only come to Faerun only about twenty years ago. Remember Moander only brought them to Faerun before the ToT's. Any how there's always the article in Dragon for them as well as the same article on the WOTC site. Weren't they one of the creator races? |
| Gray Richardson07-10-04, 02:14 PM | No, the creator race was called Sarrukh, and Serpent Kingdoms has tons of material about them. You definitely want to check it out! Saurials are just dino-humanoids that immigrated to Faerun from another plane a few years back. Here is a link to an article on the Wizards main website by Sean K. Reynolds that explains all about the Saurials: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a |
| D_Drader07-10-04, 02:27 PM | I posted this over at ENWorld, so I'll re-post it here. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a Saurials did get the axe. They were originally on the outline and when we worked on this book, we looked at the existing material and all concerned parties agreed that Sean K. Reynolds had already provided the definitive 3rd edition write-up for these guys, so the material from the article he linked to above is what was to appear in print. It was rearranged slightly to fit the format of the book, but otherwise there were no other major changes. For what its worth, I've always been fond of saurials, so I was a little disappointed to see them cut. By the same token, I was happy to see the other races that have never been detailed to this extent make it in. Regarding the art. I was especially happy the Lizard King's Feast made it in since this book isn't part of the mature line. |
| Nighttfall07-10-04, 02:29 PM | Obviously Kuje they messed up. (Big surprise) |
| ssvegeta55507-10-04, 02:42 PM | Originally posted by Gray Richardson No, the creator race was called Sarrukh, and Serpent Kingdoms has tons of material about them. You definitely want to check it out! Saurials are just dino-humanoids that immigrated to Faerun from another plane a few years back. Here is a link to an article on the Wizards main website by Sean K. Reynolds that explains all about the Saurials: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a :embarrass oops. I feel like an idiot. Well in that case, I'm geting the book for sure. |
| Mr. Wilson07-10-04, 08:05 PM | And, it is revealed/confirmed that the Sarrukh are the creators of the Nether Scrolls. |
| ssvegeta55507-10-04, 08:26 PM | Originally posted by Mr. Wilson And, it is revealed/confirmed that the Sarrukh are the creators of the Nether Scrolls. Sweet! I must get this book. One question, Is there any info on the scrolls? |
| Gray Richardson07-10-04, 09:19 PM | There is in fact information on the Nether Scrolls. Very cool. There is information about the creator races. There is information about the history of Faerun going back 36,000 years. There is information about Monster Deities (oh so very cool) some new ones, some old ones, some that are dead, some that are just sleeping, some that are reborn and how they have come and gone through the ages. I love these sections particularly. There are histories and details about all the scaly races, really wonderful writing, with in depth looks into their culture, history, outlooks, magic and religions. I am surprised the marketing people let them get away with such fluff. I really hope this book sells well for them. It is rapidly becoming one of my favorite sourcebooks the more I read of it. This book is deliciously flavor intensive and rules light. They seemed to squeeze as much as they possibly could into the book. It is a joy to read. |
| Zigra07-10-04, 10:35 PM | Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Yay! Less fuel for the Jazirian/Ahriman fanboys! FR's planar cosmology/catastrophy finally does something I like! http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif Also it seems like they're going with the World Serpent mythology rather than the 'twin serpents of law' idiocy of 2e's Guide to Hell. Thank goodness. Well, I suppose that is a plus:D However, what we learn about Jazirian and his/her death by Merrshaulk seems to be the complete inverse to everything we've learned about these two in the past. Sorry, but in the couatl/yuan-ti conflict, the couatls are not the underdogs, and their god is not the weak one of the two. The 2E book "Monster Mythology" made it very clear to us that Jazirian is a far more important aspect of the World Serpent than Merrshaulk is, and even in Merrshaulk's heyday Jazirian was the more powerful of the two. Also, various FR 2nd Edition books made if very clear to us that Jazirian was still alive and active in Faerun (she and Thard Harr had even forged an alliance), though we never got any stats on him/her. Plus, the whole idea of the couatls of Faerun worshiping Ubtao.....just doesn't sound right the way "Serpent Kingdoms" presents it. They make it sound like Ubtao is a good-aligned deity who is opposed to evil on every front, especially if that evil involves Sseth/Merrshaulk and the yuan-ti. Ubtao is suppose to be a true neutral god who stands outside the conflict of good and evil. Finally, even if Jazirian is suppose to be dead in this book's continuity, I would have still liked to have seen some stats on him/her. Anyway, aside from this major gripe, "Serpent Kingdoms" is still an excellent book with extremely useful information on my favorite bad guys. |
| Bela Reborn07-10-04, 10:47 PM | man, I hope we see the Saurials in a Web Enhancement. I'd hate to miss out on them for too long |
| Kuje3107-10-04, 11:17 PM | Originally posted by Bela Reborn man, I hope we see the Saurials in a Web Enhancement. I'd hate to miss out on them for too long Like this one? That has been on the WOTC site for at least two years? :) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a |
| Gray Richardson07-10-04, 11:20 PM | There is a web article about the Saurials. Check out this link here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a According to D Drader above the text of this web article was pretty much the same text that was going to be included in the book but had to get cut for space considerations. |
| Kuje3107-10-04, 11:36 PM | Originally posted by Gray Richardson There is a web article about the Saurials. Check out this link here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a According to D Drader above the text of this web article was pretty much the same text that was going to be included in the book but had to get cut for space considerations. Beat you to it. :) |
| Krash07-10-04, 11:53 PM | Originally posted by Zigra Finally, even if Jazirian is suppose to be dead in this book's continuity, I would have still liked to have seen some stats on him/her. Putting aside the fact that Jazirian is a 2E creation and has never had anything to do with FR, why would you want stats on this deity? You planning on killing it? -- George Krashos |
| Derulbaskul07-11-04, 12:42 AM | Originally posted by Krash Putting aside the fact that Jazirian is a 2E creation and has never had anything to do with FR, why would you want stats on this deity? You planning on killing it? -- George Krashos Even worse than that, my posting an expression of interest in seeing stats, WotC might take that as a cue to believe that people are interested in more USELESS stats for deities and the next sourcebook they publish on the same will include more and more stats and less and less useful stuff. Ahhh, Faiths & Pantheons, how terrible it must be to be the book whose Web Enhancement has more utility.... |
| Cobalt07-11-04, 01:24 AM | One thing I didnt like about Serpent Kingdoms is about Sarrukh kingdom of Issoteffifil falling around -33,800 DR due to a war with the phaerimms. In underdark the Imaskari created the phaerimms yet in the time line in serpent kingdoms imaskari didnt rise to power until -3,600 funny how a race that suppose to have been created around -3,600 DR brought low an empire dead for over 30,000 years already.....:) |
| Gray Richardson07-11-04, 01:54 AM | Hmmm... well it is not surprising that in so much Realms Lore there are bound to be a few contradictions pop up from time to time. Some possible solutions: 1) everything we know about the phaerimms is clouded in the cloak of legend, myth and rumor. So one of the two sources could be wrong. 2) Perhaps the Imaskari did indeed create the phaerimm and the the phaerimm went back in time somehow to fight the sarrukh. Maybe the phaerimm were trying to prevent the creation of the Nether Scrolls by destroying the reference sources that were kept at Oreme, the capital of Isstosseffiffil. 3) Maybe the phaerimm were around back in the time of the Sarrukh, but got wiped out or imprisoned or shunted to a demiplane or some such, and then the Imaskari came along later to free them, revive them, resurrect them, or clone them from DNA found in the stomach of an ancient stirge preserved in amber. The story still tracks. It just takes a little imagination to reconcile the seeming contradiction. |
| Mr. Wilson07-11-04, 05:17 AM | Unless I'm mistaken, I've never seen this published anywhere, and though I'm not as knowledgable about FR as some others, I nearly fell out of my seat (thank goodness I was already on the floor) when I read that Chassan was the Avatar of Kossuth during the Time of Trouble. I mean, that's friggin' huge news and it was in a brief NPC write up. Did I miss this somewhere? Everything I read stated no one knew where Kossuth was during the ToT. Upon consultating more sources before posting, here's pg 36 from F&P "Kossuth's name is not among the deities spotted in Faerun during the Time of Troubles, which suggests either that he somehow escaped Ao's wrath or simply kept quiet as the world fell apart around him." Holy cow. This is huge news. I'm shocked. |
| Krash07-11-04, 05:33 AM | I would just go with the simple explanation that the Deep Imaskari created their own, pet servitor phaerimm - and this better explains why phaerimm are beneeath Myth Drannor when the sharn wall should have captured all the ones that were assaulting Netheril, way back when. -- George Krashos |
| Gray Richardson07-11-04, 11:02 AM | If George said it, it's good enough for me! :) |
| Mystery Man07-12-04, 09:11 AM | When I got back from vacation I drooled over this book at my FLGS, payday is only two days away......! |
| The Morninglord07-12-04, 03:45 PM | Are the stats for Dediana Extaminos (ruler of Hlondeth) found inside? |
| Devo00107-12-04, 09:22 PM | Originally posted by Gray Richardson There is in fact information on the Nether Scrolls. Very cool. There is information about the creator races. There is information about the history of Faerun going back 36,000 years. There is information about Monster Deities (oh so very cool) some new ones, some old ones, some that are dead, some that are just sleeping, some that are reborn and how they have come and gone through the ages. I love these sections particularly. There are histories and details about all the scaly races, really wonderful writing, with in depth looks into their culture, history, outlooks, magic and religions. I am surprised the marketing people let them get away with such fluff. I really hope this book sells well for them. It is rapidly becoming one of my favorite sourcebooks the more I read of it. This book is deliciously flavor intensive and rules light. They seemed to squeeze as much as they possibly could into the book. It is a joy to read. Unless I'm missing something big I only see that the origin of the nether scrolls are revealed, nothing particular and no details tho |
| Enslaved DM07-12-04, 10:15 PM | I was completely uninterested in this book when I first heard about it, but the quality of the promo material has whetted my appetite. Cool art with a very 30's pulp adventure feel. I can see my characters crawling through monstrous jungles, exploring ancient temples, and engaging in treacherous plots. Cudos to those responsible. |
| Cole Deschain07-13-04, 02:55 AM | Originally posted by Krash Putting aside the fact that Jazirian is a 2E creation and has never had anything to do with FR, why would you want stats on this deity? You planning on killing it? -- George Krashos My amigo Zigra is having trouble with his internet connection, so he asked me to put in his response- Jazirian is mentioned as helping bring down the first Yuan-Ti empire. Ergo, he/she (as usual, there's some confusion...) cleary DOES have something to do with FR. Anyway, Semuanya and Shekinester made it into the book, and they certainly haven't been movers and shakers in the Realms. After all, Semuanya tends to ignore just about everything. Anyhow. So much for Zigra's reply. I would further add that he didn;t ask for STATS, he asked for a profile, which is in long keeping with FR material... Remember Faiths & Avatars? Remember all the dead gods it contained? Why should Jazirian get the boot, especially if you don't buy Couatls as working with Ubtao (it just doesn't feel right)? At any rate, a not-too-far in the past accessory mentioned that Thard Harr had formed an alliance with Jazirian, so the current version of events plays havoc with the canon several campaigns have been using. Don't assume that people asking for a god's wrtieup are asking for battlefield stats. A simple "what they are (or were) is usually more than sufficient. Did you bother actually reading Zigra's post, or were you too busy jumping all over one out-of-context sentence? |
| Gray Richardson07-13-04, 03:31 AM | I don't think there was room in the book to go into gods in too much detail. They had to leave out a lot of things that I know they wanted to keep. That being said a lot of the still living gods do have brief write ups in the back. As for Jazirian, although he doesn't have a full write up, he is mentioned quite a lot throughout the book. You can glean quite a lot of history about him (and it turns out he is definitely a "he" in the Realms). He gets mentioned in the racial deities sections of several of the races. I don't want to spoil too much, the mythology sections in this book are full of great tidbits and history of the gods. The story of Jazirian is peppered throughout the book, and you have to search in several places to put all the pieces together, but you might be surprised to learn that Jazirian is the father of another Monster Deity. We learn how Jazirian died and we learn that he may not really be dead... It's a really great book, you should go out and pick it up. I am sure you will not be disappointed. |
| Krash07-13-04, 04:48 AM | Originally posted by Cole Deschain Don't assume that people asking for a god's wrtieup are asking for battlefield stats. A simple "what they are (or were) is usually more than sufficient. Did you bother actually reading Zigra's post, or were you too busy jumping all over one out-of-context sentence? Hey Cole I did bother reading Zigra's post, but was moved to post my reply by his request for stats. That's why I quoted him as asking for stats. Sure, Jazirian is mentioned by name in Demihuman Deities. that's because Eric is "Mr Super Includer" and likes to weave in everything - trust me. But as Jazirian's entire FR presence amounts to his inclusion in a list of allied deities over 16 years of products, I don't think the greater Realms commnunity has missed out on much by his unfortunate passing. YMMV. Gods - sheesh, you'd think PCs met them every day and they were every DM's first port of call for a plot element ... Look at all the great REALMSLORE in the product, and don't get to fussed by one inconsequential deity. -- George Krashos |
| Mr. Wilson07-13-04, 05:45 AM | Especially when you find out an interesting detail about a Greater deity as an afterthought. |
| Cole Deschain07-13-04, 12:51 PM | Originally posted by Krash But as Jazirian's entire FR presence amounts to his inclusion in a list of allied deities over 16 years of products, I don't think the greater Realms commnunity has missed out on much by his unfortunate passing. YMMV. Gods - sheesh, you'd think PCs met them every day and they were every DM's first port of call for a plot element ... Look at all the great REALMSLORE in the product, and don't get to fussed by one inconsequential deity. Such as two we DID get, Semuanay and Shekinester. No, seriously. Why are those two included, whereas Jazirian has been retconned into death? When was the last time either of them did ANYTHING in the Realms? And yet, there they are. Compared to these two, Jazirian had been meddling as much as Mystra. And no, it's not that the PCs are going to meet them. But having the Couatls (a species I use pretty heavily) suddenly in league with either Ubtao (which I don't buy) or Qotal (which I do buy, but only in Maztica) is more than a little annoying. That being said, since it's all down to take it or leave it, that's one little detail of 3E I'm going to ignore. |
| Nighttfall07-13-04, 03:11 PM | *only cares about any of this stuff in terms of SK being good to use with other non D&D/WotC serpent races.* |
| Shemeska the Marauder07-13-04, 04:58 PM | Originally posted by Cole Deschain Such as two we DID get, Semuanay and Shekinester. No, seriously. Why are those two included, whereas Jazirian has been retconned into death? When was the last time either of them did ANYTHING in the Realms? And yet, there they are. Compared to these two, Jazirian had been meddling as much as Mystra. And no, it's not that the PCs are going to meet them. But having the Couatls (a species I use pretty heavily) suddenly in league with either Ubtao (which I don't buy) or Qotal (which I do buy, but only in Maztica) is more than a little annoying. That being said, since it's all down to take it or leave it, that's one little detail of 3E I'm going to ignore. *shrug* Shekinester's presence and influence on the planes carries a whole heck of a lot more weight then Jazirian's. Jazirian's only claim to large fame was the gut wrenching material in 'Guide to Hell' (which has died a death of being patently ignored since then). I'm happy to see Shekinester included rather than Jazirian myself. But I'm taking a larger perspective perhaps (and I don't have the material that originally referenced Jaz. in FR) |
| Cole Deschain07-13-04, 11:12 PM | Well, my point is that Jazirian had far more involvement with the realms than two deities who were included, and a rough sketch of how Thard Harr thought he'd allied with him when the deity in question had, in fact, been dead for quite some time (at least according to SK's history which, on its own, is very, very good) is a little tricky to work out. |
| ruleslawyer07-14-04, 12:17 AM | How did Jazirian have "far more involvement with the Realms" than Shekinester or Semuanya? Where did you read this? Also, it is important to keep in mind that completist as Eric Boyd has been in F&A, it's quite possible that Jazirian is an ally of the gods who have him under their "ally" entry, but has never had a significant presence in Realmspace. Unified cosmology, remember? In 2e, a god was an inhabitant of the Great Ring, meaning that Tempus could hobnob with Indra and Lathander with Heracles. In any case, the god of the couatls hardly has much appeal in Realmslore terms, given how little that particular race turns up (never?). OTOH, nagas and lizardfolk are big presences in the Realms, so Shekinester and Semuanya seem like appropriate big-deal deities for FR. And yes, thank the heavens that they didn't bring in the ridiculous Jazirian/Asmodeus thing. |
| Gray Richardson07-14-04, 01:08 AM | And yes, thank the heavens that they didn't bring in the ridiculous Jazirian/Asmodeus thing. Agreed, the Serpent Kingdoms writers did a great job with the mythology parts (among a lot of other great parts.) With the FR cosmology now separated from the Great Wheel it allows them to throw out the sillier parts of the old continuity and write really great backstories for some of these deities that are more in line with the history and continuity of the Realms. Toril's Jazirian is a lot cooler now after Serpent Kingdoms. Shekinester is cooler too. In fact all the Monster Deities mentioned in SK make more sense now and fit in better in terms of the Realms. Way to go Serpent Kingdom design team! Excellent book! |
| Shemeska the Marauder07-14-04, 02:21 AM | Originally posted by Gray Richardson Agreed, the Serpent Kingdoms writers did a great job with the mythology parts (among a lot of other great parts.) With the FR cosmology now separated from the Great Wheel it allows them to throw out the sillier parts of the old continuity and write really great backstories for some of these deities that are more in line with the history and continuity of the Realms. Umm... they fragged the continuity with the retroactive cosmology changes. Did you not get the memo? And don't worry, the "sillier parts" that you speak of are barely considered to exist anyways, to say nothing of canonical. *cough*2e Guide to Hell*cough* Toril's Jazirian is a lot cooler now after Serpent Kingdoms. Shekinester is cooler too. In fact all the Monster Deities mentioned in SK make more sense now and fit in better in terms of the Realms. Way to go Serpent Kingdom design team! Excellent book! Shekinester was already cool, seriously so, all triple aspected and snazzy. I'll definately agree with your last bit of praise. It's a wonderful, wonderful book. |
| D_Drader07-14-04, 03:09 AM | Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder I'll definately agree with your last bit of praise. It's a wonderful, wonderful book. I just want to thank you, Gray Richardson, and others for the compliments. I know that Realms fans are a challenging audience to please and as one myself, I'm thrilled that this book appears to have succeeded. As a writer and a designer, I'm always looking for what new and interesting things I can bring to the rules or a campaign setting. We all owe an enormous thanks to Eric L. Boyd for reigning me in a bit on this project in order to make sure it meshes tightly with existing Realms lore. This would not be the same product without his enormously valuable insight. I'm pleased with the way it turned out, but more importantly, I hope that the Realms fans get a lot of use out of this book. |
| The Morninglord07-14-04, 06:10 AM | Serpent Kingdoms is a book I've been waiting for since I started thinking about a campaign with the Yuan-ti as the main villains about a year ago. This was before I even knew it would be made a book like this, so naturally I was excited when I heard about it. I haven't picked up the book yet, but will as soon as I get the opportunity. Someone must have read my mind, because suddenly the yuan-ti started showing up in Elite Opponents (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20031207a) and Perilous Gateways (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20010711x). However, while the Serpent Sibyl and Zstulkk Ssarmn has been given stats in Perilous Gateways (and perhaps in this book as well), I haven't found stats for Dediana Extaminos. If she has been given stats in Serpent Kingdoms, then everything is fine, if not I will use the opportunity to ask if there is a chance I may see this in a web enchantment or similar in the future? |
| Zigra07-14-04, 06:49 PM | Originally posted by ruleslawyer How did Jazirian have "far more involvement with the Realms" than Shekinester or Semuanya? Where did you read this? In the 2E FR book "Powers and Pantheons", it was stated that Jazirian had led the Couatls to destroy the first yuan-ti empire in the Black Jungles. That's a pretty signifigant event if you ask me. Instead of taking that into canon, the authors of "Serpent Kingdoms" claim Jazirian was killed by Merrshaulk shortly after the fragmentation of the World Serpent, and that the couatls were led by Ubtao instead. Sorry, not only do I not buy the idea that Jazirian has been dead all this time, but I also don't buy into the idea that Ubtao has been the patron of the couatls. It would have made much more sense (and worked better with established canon) if the authors said Qotal was the one who led the couatls against the yuan-ti, especially if they are presenting the possibility that Qotal is Jazirian reborn. but you might be suprised to learn that Jazirian is the father of another Monster Deity In the 2E book "Monster Mythology" (which does follow the World Serpent origins for Jazirian, Shekinester and Merrshaulk), it was not only stated that Jazirian had both male and female aspects (kinda like Corellon) but that the male aspect of Jazirian had sired Parrafaire. So, the information you speak of is already very old news. |
| Zigra07-14-04, 07:11 PM | Speaking of "Monster Mythology", you guys should check out Jazirian's profile in that book to see just how monumentaly unlikely it is for Merrshaulk to ever overcome him/her (even in Merrshaulk's heyday). But still, despite having this major gripe, "Serpent Kingdoms" still might be one of my favorite D&D books of all time. Being a lover of reptiles (especially snakes), I'm glad that many of the serpentine and reptilian races have finally gotten their own campaign supplement. The drow elves can't have all the attention. Besides, I've got a good idea how to reconcile the whole "Jazirian is dead" story element in my own campaign world (basically, the yuan-ti priests of Sseth/Merrshaulk are only lying about Jazirian being dead, and they blame Ubtao for the fall of their first empire just for the sake of propaganda against Ubtao's followers). |
| Crust07-14-04, 11:21 PM | I liked Dragonbait, and I like the aspect of how saurials communicate by scent, but if there is one gripe I have with FR (and with D&D in general), it's the idea that dinosaurs exist. If there's one golden rule in my campaign, it would be NO DINOSAURS! Dinosaurs are the lamest creatures to ever grace a Monster Manual, in ANY eddition. I must say, however, that omitting the saurials from the Serpent Kingdoms is a really weird move. If the authors felt the forgettable tren deserved a spot, they could have added a handful of extra pages for Dragonbait's sake alone. Come on! |
| Crust07-14-04, 11:22 PM | Whoops. |
| Zigra07-14-04, 11:28 PM | Originally posted by Crust ), it's the idea that dinosaurs exist. [/B] Well, suit yourself. I happen to like dinosaurs (in both real life and D&D), so I like that there are dinosaurs in some regions of Toril. I especially like how we have a dinosaur god (Ubtao) in the Realms. |
| Crust07-14-04, 11:39 PM | Originally posted by Zigra I especially like how we have a dinosaur god (Ubtao) in the Realms. Yes. His avatar form is that of the mighty Grimlock, who is faithfully served by his personal vassals: Swoop, Snarl, Slag, and Sludge. |
| Zigra07-14-04, 11:55 PM | Originally posted by Crust Yes. His avatar form is that of the mighty Grimlock, who is faithfully served by his personal vassals: Swoop, Snarl, Slag, and Sludge. Heh heh. Now, if only Grimlock weren't a robot. |
| warlockco07-14-04, 11:55 PM | Originally posted by Crust Yes. His avatar form is that of the mighty Grimlock, who is faithfully served by his personal vassals: Swoop, Snarl, Slag, and Sludge. He in turns serves Prime the ruler of Mechanus :angel: Sorry, couldn't resist :angel: |
| Shemeska the Marauder07-15-04, 12:20 AM | Originally posted by warlockco He in turns serves Prime the ruler of Mechanus :angel: Sorry, couldn't resist :angel: So... would that make Orcus/Tenebrous be Megatron? :D |
| warlockco07-15-04, 12:38 AM | Originally posted by Crust I liked Dragonbait, and I like the aspect of how saurials communicate by scent, but if there is one gripe I have with FR (and with D&D in general), it's the idea that dinosaurs exist. If there's one golden rule in my campaign, it would be NO DINOSAURS! Dinosaurs are the lamest creatures to ever grace a Monster Manual, in ANY eddition. I must say, however, that omitting the saurials from the Serpent Kingdoms is a really weird move. If the authors felt the forgettable tren deserved a spot, they could have added a handful of extra pages for Dragonbait's sake alone. Come on! Here is everyone's favorite non-human paladin. Used Heroe's Lorebook as a reference. Dragonbait: Male Finhead Saurial Pal10 of Tyr; CR 11; Medium-size Humanoid (Reptilian); HD 2d8+8 plus 10d10+32; hp 72; Init +4; Spd 30 ft.; AC 16 (touch 12, flat-footed 14); Base Atk +11, Grp +14; Atk +15 melee (1d8+4, +1 Flametongue Longsword); Full Atk +15/+10/+5 melee (1d8+4, +1 Flametongue Longsword), Face/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Smite Evil, Turn Undead; SQ Paladin, Saural traits; AL LG; SV Fort +11, Ref +16, Will +10; Str 16, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 18. Skills and Feats (counting all modifiers except equipment and attributes): Balance +5, Concentration +15, Jump +5, Listen +1, Knowledge (Religion) +15, Sense Motive +10, Speak Language (Draconic, Celestial, Common), Spot +2, Survival +2. Dodge, Endurance, Mobility, Run, Weapon Focus (Longsword). Special Qualities: Saurial Traits: Cold Torpor (Ex): Saurials are warm-blooded creatures, but they retain heat poorly in cold environments. A saurial suffers a -5 penalty to Fortitude saving throws made to avoid subdual damage from cold environments and takes double the normal amount of subdual damage for failing those saving throws. In cooler climates, saurials bundle up to keep warm, for they can easily die from exposure in an environment that a human would find merely uncomfortable; Protection from Sonic Attacks (Ex): A saurial's earholes are well protected, giving it a +4 circumstance bonus on saving throws against sonic effects and attacks; Scent (Ex); Vulnerability to Gas Attacks (Ex): A saurial's metabolism and reliance on scent makes it vulnerable to attacks conveyed through gas, including stinking cloud, cloudkill, and poisonous gas. Saurials suffer a -4 penalty on saving throws against gas-based effects and attacks; Low-Light Vision; +4 natural armor; Natural Attacks: 2 claws and tail, claws for 1d4 + Str and tail for 1d3 + ½ Str. Aura of Good (aura equals paladin level); Detect Evil at will; Smite Evil 3/day; Divine Grace +4; Lay on Hands 40 HPs; Aura of Courage; Divine Health; Turn Undead as 6th-level cleric 7/day; Special Mount; Remove Disease 2/week. Paladin Spells Prepared (2/2; base DC = 13 + spell level; caster level 5th). Possessions: +1 Flametongue Longsword, other possessions unknown. Height: 410, Weight: Unknown, Hair: None, Eyes: Yellow. Go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a) for information on Saurials. |
| Zigra07-15-04, 12:47 AM | Heh, getting back on topic........ Is it just me, or are the Sauroids/Sarrukh heavily based on the Serpent People of Valusia from the old Conan and Cthulhu Mythos stories? |