Post/Author/DateTime	Post
greatestDM 03-08-04, 03:13 PM	I am running a campaign in which my players are defending the Silver Marches from a Shade invasion. I mentioned something about the Shades venturing into the Underdark to destroy the Drow race and one of my players spoke up to say that the Shades would be crushed if they came near. I want to see who thinks I am right or wrong. I vote for Shadovar.
Cunning Linguist 03-08-04, 04:21 PM	Why would Shades destroy the Drow? Last I checked they had a deal of some kind, at least there is an ambassador of Shade in Meriamydra, so they are not hostile toward each other..
Mirtek 03-08-04, 04:34 PM	1. Shade Enclave has only about 25,000 citizens 2. Only 2% of them actually are shades, the rest are ordinary humans 3. The drow population in the underdark is a few hundred thousands 4. Each of them are drow While the Shadovar have some powerfull epic casters, the drow have epic caster on their own. While they are less powerfull than the top shades, they should be able to bring them down quite easily in combination with the more numerous non-epic drow casters Remember: Even from a 17th level caster will a Mordenkainen's Disjunction strip away all defenses of even the most epic Shadovar Caster Conclusion: The Shades alone are too few to best the drow. All troops they could send into the Underdark would never return to light after an earnest battle against the drow Also don't forget that a large part of Shade Enclave's army has been destroyed in Tilverton.
Hygric 03-08-04, 05:20 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek 4. Each of them are drow Last thing I heard was that a large chunk of drow population was it's slaves. Remember: Even from a 17th level caster will a Mordenkainen's Disjunction strip away all defenses of even the most epic Shadovar Caster Not if they have epic spells. Then one simple ward and no more disjunction affecting that mage.
Cherrn 03-08-04, 05:58 PM	It is drow in their home territory, the Shades will be crushed, since so few of them are shades and the majority of them are shadovars IE normal humans who live in the city of Shade.
Cunning Linguist 03-08-04, 05:59 PM	If Shadow has Mavin's Create Volcano, and he knows where the drow cities lie.. well, no drow spell resistence will stop that. But then, they would not need go down into the underdark either.. If the Shades went down into the Underdark and tried to take down the drow, they would be screwed.
Kilamar 03-08-04, 06:24 PM	Nobody will win, the discussion is pointless. Kilamar
ElGrecoETAC 03-08-04, 07:15 PM	A better question might be: "What if Telamont went off his rocker, stopped acting like a super genius arch-wizard, and started randomly attacking power groups that posed absolutely no threat to him and had even LESS to do with his stated goal of reclaiming the Netherese homeland and restoring its former glory and dominion all over the (Surface) Realms?" Attention all Shadovar! We are giving up our millenium-long struggle to reconquer what is rightfully ours! I now order all of you to pile into the Underdark and... kill... all... the Drow!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ;) Would that about cover it?
Twilight Herald 03-08-04, 08:19 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek 3. The drow population in the underdark is a few hundred thousands 4. Each of them are drow Actually, at least a couple of millions plus. Hell, even the surface elves have at least 2 million people when you add together Evermeet's population and the scattering of settlements on the mainland. As was stated in the Elves of Evermeet sourcebook, the drow now far outnumber the other elven races combined. So the single city of Shade would be trying to wipe out the countless drow cities of the Underdark, each with their share of Archmages and Masters of Sorcere, on their home turf. A small number of the Shade arcanists may be very powerful epic casters, of course, but one assumes that many drow cities have at least one epic-level spellcaster themselves. Menzo has Gromph, Jalynfein and the lichdrow Dyrr, Shamath has the Master of Mages, etc. The drow wizards are also known masters of Circle magic, which can be a useful way of employing large numbers of non-epic mages in the defence of a city. That being said, a sudden attack by the Shades on Menzoberranzan in its current weakened state might be successful, but the Shadovar would take probably crippling losses for no rational strategic gain. As for a genocidal war against all the drow, it would be disastrous. Drow WILL band together against an outside threat, and a simple alliance of, say, Guallidurth and Shamath could probably destroy Shade outright. QUOTE]Originally posted by Cunning Linguist If Shadow has Mavin's Create Volcano, and he knows where the drow cities lie.. well, no drow spell resistence will stop that. But then, they would not need go down into the underdark either.. [/QUOTE] Well, at least Menzo and Shamath have Epic-level defensive wards laid into the structure of the cities and the surrounding areas, so I'm guessing Mavin's Create Volcano wouldn't work. If I recall correctly, the contingency field laid down on Menzo severely screws up any caster who tries to damage the city or the cavern with magic. I assume that most other drow cities, especially bigger ones like Guallidurth, would have equally impressive wards.
Elereth_Berantor 03-08-04, 10:05 PM	Originally posted by Kilamar Nobody will win, the discussion is pointless. Kilamar Truth.
Mirtek 03-09-04, 02:33 AM	Originally posted by Hygric Last thing I heard was that a large chunk of drow population was it's slaves. With hundred thousands I meant the only the drow. If you also count the slaves there are millions of them. Menzoberanzan alone certainly has at least 100 kobolds for every drow
Mumm-Ra 03-09-04, 07:59 AM	The shades wouldn't eb able to do it, there are too many drow and too few of them. However: Well, at least Menzo and Shamath have Epic-level defensive wards laid into the structure of the cities and the surrounding areas, so I'm guessing Mavin's Create Volcano wouldn't work. If I recall correctly, the contingency field laid down on Menzo severely screws up any caster who tries to damage the city or the cavern with magic. I assume that most other drow cities, especially bigger ones like Guallidurth, would have equally impressive wards. It doesnt matter. Shadow is a much much higher caster than any drow around, so any one of his epic dispelling spells designed specifically for that purpse would destroy any ward simply because he can create much higher dispel DC's than any epic spell ward created by drow, for the basic fact that he is around 10 levels higher than the highest level drow spellcaster. A couple castings of tolodine's killing wind and it will spread into the underdark tunnels killing anything that cannot survive 20d6 damage. Spell resistance is ignored totally as shadow's caster level is so high as to punch through any spell resistance. Just gas the whole underdark to death. :) Whoever tries to fight back has to come OUT, right in the hands of telamont and his sons and his phaerimm extermination squads (converted to drow extermination squads of course). TOASTED drow. From simbul's post in the magic section: Tolodine's Killing Wind Evocation [Acid] (Netherese) Spellcraft DC: 70 Components: V, XP Casting Time: 1 round Range: 1,000 ft. Effect: Cloud of acidic fog, up to 100 10-ft. cubes (S) Duration: 20 hours (D) Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: Yes Development: 630,000 gp; 13 days; 25,200 XP. Seed: energy (DC 19). Factors: Increase damage by 18d6 (+36 DC), range 400% (+8 DC), change area to cubes (+2 DC), increase area 2,500% (+100 DC), dismissible (+2 DC), increase DC on the fly (ad hoc +3). Mitigating factors: Burn 10,000 XP (-100 DC). You create a cloud of billowing vapors that blow at high speed from you through the area you designate. These strongly acidic vapors deal 20d6 points of acid damage to each creature caught within them. You can reshape the area as a standard action each round during the spell's duration if you so desire. As a special feature of this spell, you can increase the saving throw DC at the time of casting by sacrificing more XP. For every 1,000 XP you sacrifice beyond the 10,000 XP required to cast the spell, the saving throw DC increases by +5. XP Cost: 10,000 XP or more. The reason why the shades wouldnt win is because there are too many drow, too many cities. By the time Telamont has killed them all he will be back to level 1 from the xp cost of tolodine's killing wind. This xp loss can be reduced with some epic magic items, and the cost of these items can be reduced by using liquid pain and sacrifice rules in BoVD. Also shadow can easily match spellcraft DC's of 70, in fact one version of him has a spellcraft of around 80, meaning he can reach DC's of 90, making any custom epic spells he makes better than tolodine's killing wind. He is just the best caster around, and no number of drow will change this fact.
Twilight Herald 03-09-04, 09:48 AM	Originally posted by Mumm-Ra It doesnt matter. Shadow is a much much higher caster than any drow around, so any one of his epic dispelling spells designed specifically for that purpse would destroy any ward simply because he can create much higher dispel DC's than any epic spell ward created by drow, for the basic fact that he is around 10 levels higher than the highest level drow spellcaster. True, but in the case of, for example Menzoberranzan, Shadow would be trying to dispel epic wards created not by the modern epic-level ( low 20s ) wizards in the city, but rather the ancient Circle of drow archmages ( wielding the often referred-to but yet to be defined Drow equivalent of High Magic ) acting with the divine assistance of Lolth herself. That's got to make for a somewhat higher dispel DC than your typical epic ward. Originally posted by Mumm-Ra A couple castings of tolodine's killing wind and it will spread into the underdark tunnels killing anything that cannot survive 20d6 damage. Spell resistance is ignored totally as shadow's caster level is so high as to punch through any spell resistance. Just gas the whole underdark to death. This is the point where the more powerful High Priestesses of the drow cities being attacked start casting miracle spells en masse, accepting the 5,000 XP burn in order to create higher order effects beyond the normal limits of 9th-level magic. They then either divert the Killing Wind away from the limits of the cities, temporarily phase the threatened cities out of the Prime Material plane, or even do something drastic like turn the spell back on the Shadovar. It would all depend on how much energy Lolth would be willing to invest in the requested miracles . With her chosen race threatened with potential genocide, I would say quite a bit. Of course its all a bit moot since the Drow and Shadovar are too smart to ever fight each other when each group has numerous bitter enemies closer to home.
Mumm-Ra 03-09-04, 10:09 AM	True, but in the case of, for example Menzoberranzan, Shadow would be trying to dispel epic wards created not by the modern epic-level ( low 20s ) wizards in the city, but rather the ancient Circle of drow archmages ( wielding the often referred-to but yet to be defined Drow equivalent of High Magic ) acting with the divine assistance of Lolth herself. That's got to make for a somewhat higher dispel DC than your typical epic ward. A fair point, but it is my belief that the magic of the netherese is the most powerful ever seen in toril since the elder races (the nether scrolls were created by these elder races). A fact that supports this argument is the fact that the elves stole the nether scrolls themselves in an attempt to understand how the netherese could reach such might(see the cormanthor, empire of the elves, available for download), and all this happened waaaaay after the original illythiri split from the rest of the elves. At best, drow magic matches that of the netherese. I would not bring deities into the argument either, because it causes problems. If lloth interferes, then so can shar, and between the two, its a no-brainer who would win. As for miracle... Miracle can only duplicate spell effects of 8th level of lower, or achieve something along those lines (maybe a bit more powerful). An epic spell is well beyond anything that a non-epic spell can achieve, and if it casting miracles is still argued as an effective tactic, then you make tolodine's killing wind immune to the effects of the wish spell (trivial). In essence, the power and versatility of epic spells makes it so that any caster without epic spellcasting is doomed to failure, as the simbul will be able to show you in the 'how to kill the simbul' thread.
Mumm-Ra 03-09-04, 10:12 AM	True, but in the case of, for example Menzoberranzan, Shadow would be trying to dispel epic wards created not by the modern epic-level ( low 20s ) wizards in the city, but rather the ancient Circle of drow archmages ( wielding the often referred-to but yet to be defined Drow equivalent of High Magic ) acting with the divine assistance of Lolth herself. That's got to make for a somewhat higher dispel DC than your typical epic ward. A fair point, but it is my belief that the magic of the netherese is the most powerful ever seen in toril since the elder races (the nether scrolls were created by these elder races). A fact that supports this argument is the fact that the elves stole the nether scrolls themselves in an attempt to understand how the netherese could reach such might(see the cormanthor, empire of the elves, available for download), and all this happened waaaaay after the original illythiri split from the rest of the elves. At best, drow magic matches that of the netherese. I would not bring deities into the argument either, because it causes problems. If lloth interferes, then so can shar, and between the two, its a no-brainer who would win. As for miracle... Miracle can only duplicate spell effects of 8th level of lower, or achieve something along those lines (maybe a bit more powerful). An epic spell is well beyond anything that a non-epic spell can achieve, and if it casting miracles is still argued as an effective tactic, then you make tolodine's killing wind immune to the effects of the wish spell (trivial). In essence, the power and versatility of epic spells makes it so that any caster without epic spellcasting is doomed to failure, as the simbul will be able to show you in the 'how to kill the simbul' thread. Of course its all a bit moot since the Drow and Shadovar are too smart to ever fight each other when each group has numerous bitter enemies closer to home. I totally agree there. The drow have their own problems (duergar, illithids, tanarukks) breathing down their necks, as do the shades. And even if it happened, Telamont would definitely NOT want to go back to level 1 in his efforts to kill the drow.
Mumm-Ra 03-09-04, 10:14 AM	oops double post.
Decepticons 03-09-04, 01:55 PM	One point everyone seems to be forgetting is that the Drow are typically busy fighting each other. The Shades wouldn't have to fight the entire drow population. A lot of people are throwing up population numbers, but they're essentially meaningless in a contest of this type unless the drow find some way to put their centuries of infighting aside (very unlikely) and find a way to gather in mass (also unlikely). The drow are fairly widely scattered in the underdark. The Shades are not. The drow constantly war among themselves, the Shades do not. I'd say it's a pretty even bet that plenty of drow, in their constant quest for more power and dominance, would either jump on the Shade bandwangon, or simply use it as an oppritunityto break away...especailly males. Then you have the fact that there are many more male drow wizards than there are female drow wizards (since the females tend towards various cleric type classes). The male drow wizards would have a LOT to gain, and very little to lose by backing a Shade led power-play. If I were a male drow wizard, and basically a 2nd class citizen in most traditional drow cities and a covert operative from the shades came along, offering ancient magics in exchange for jumping ship I'd probably roll the dice and take my chances. Then again, as has already been posted here, there's little reason for the Drow and Shades to go at it. The Anauroch is one of the LEAST hospitable places a drow could want to be, so they have no reason to make a territory grab there. Likewise, the shades are ill-suited for life in the underdark, especially their commoners. It is FAR more likely that these two races would ally to destroy cities of the North, rather than fighting each other.
Mirtek 03-09-04, 04:39 PM	Originally posted by Mumm-Ra As for miracle... Miracle can only duplicate spell effects of 8th level of lower, or achieve something along those lines (maybe a bit more powerful). If you use the standard options then yes, only 8th level or lower. But that's no the point, you are missing the pay 5,000 XP and in turn can make a very powerful request thing. And this can quite easily produce effects even beyond most epic spells .... if the deity in question is willing to do so. And in such a case I can't see why Lolth wouldn't be willing to save some of her major centers of worship. Originally posted by Mumm-Ra An epic spell is well beyond anything that a non-epic spell can achieve, and if it casting miracles is still argued as an effective tactic, then you make tolodine's killing wind immune to the effects of the wish spell (trivial). In essence, the power and versatility of epic spells makes it so that any caster without epic spellcasting is doomed to failure, as the simbul will be able to show you in the 'how to kill the simbul' thread. It's open to argue whether miracle is truly a spell in the classical form. It's basically just a special form of commune, only that the deity acts instead of just answers. Ward of an epic spell? No big deal for Lolth, who has SDAs like Alter Reality at her command. Sorry, but even Shadow simply can not hope to best that kind of power. Although such a direct and dractic meddling of Lolth has the possibility to bring Shar's special attention upon the battle.
Jeron Alodel 03-09-04, 05:00 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek While they are less powerfull than the top shades, they should be able to bring them down quite easily in combination with the more numerous non-epic drow casters Remember: Even from a 17th level caster will a Mordenkainen's Disjunction strip away all defenses of even the most epic Shadovar Caster Conclusion: The Shades alone are too few to best the drow. All troops they could send into the Underdark would never return to light after an earnest battle against the drow [/B] Ok, first of all, anyone remember how the shadovar can just pop out of peoples shadows? They would have a field day in the underdark. Plus shadow magis is a part of whole magic, and punches right through the scaled down weave magic they have now. And also, even if half the shadovar population is human, they can still cast shadow magic.
Telagaunt 03-09-04, 05:05 PM	There was a thread like this a long time ago. Like in the summer lol But anyway, in a 1 on 1 match a templated Shade char. would have a higher chance of success than that of a drow character. Especially depending on the race of the shade. Now, Shadovar and Shades of Shade Enclave fighting drow of the Underdark... That'd be a different story if it were some sort of battlefield. Drow I think would win simply because of their numbers and that they have powerful magic of their own. However Shades could do it, although I think it'd be very hard. They'd have to do their very best at a surprise attack lol. Now if the drow tried to open up a battle on Shade territory, where drow numbers would most likely be less, I think the Shades would probably win.
Mirtek 03-09-04, 05:18 PM	Originally posted by Jeron Alodel Plus shadow magis is a part of whole magic, and punches right through the scaled down weave magic they have now. And also, even if half the shadovar population is human, they can still cast shadow magic. No, it is not. Never ever confuse novels (who only tell a nice story) with actual game rules. Shadow weave magic is neither more nor less whole and neither more nor less whole than weave magic. BTW, even in the novels it was never said that shadow weave magic is more whole than the weave. The blankets the shadovar fashioned to melt the high ice were said to be whole magic, but that was because the were created with use of the karse stone, not because shadow weave magic is more whole than weave magic. Last but not least, a small correction: :bored: Shadow Weave Magic is not the same as Shadow Magic :uh-huh: Shadow Weave Magic is magic cast through the Shadow Weave. Shadow Magic is just spells with the [Shadow] describtor. They draw upon the Plane of Shadow but are not realted to the Shadow Weave and can be cast true either the normal Weave or the Shadow Weave :teach::teach::teach:
Nimzz 03-10-04, 02:09 PM	i think this is irevavant... there are many posts up around here saying who will win drow or so and so... the drow really have no interest in the surface...why would they go somewhere and get blinded every day...(it talks about this in one of the novels but i can't find it right now) the take over the surface thing has mostly been used by matron mother to motivate the houses to do what they what to enhance personal power... there is the drow coming back to cormanthor thing but in my personal opinion that is where drow exiles who want to recover elven artifacts go... in responce to the shades invading the silver marches i see them goin right off to ask for an alliance from Sshamath instead of invading them... i think that this has a very good chance of seceding and turning both the drow and the shades into more of a threat... i think that this alliance would be strengthened by the fact that neither race really wants to fight the other and also that there goals compliment each other...the drow want the underdark and the shades want the old lands... for this specific discusion i think that Ssamath itself could hold off the shades...while it has less population and its hishest levels are much less then shades...it has many more people around the 15-20 level mark... even more so with circle magic if every 5th level cast lent a 10th level caster 10 levels or so then the shades would be in some serious trouble...and if all the heads of the magic schools there boosted themselves to 40th level then there would be almost 10 level forties and a large force of others... also in this discussion with the exeption of Sshamath the shades would be confronting epic defence from many circles of archmagi and from the divine power of loth and her priestesses... while in most cities they might have only 3 or so prominant arcane caster their are a dozen of high level preistesses... "The male drow wizards would have a LOT to gain and very little to lose by backing a Shade led power-play" i disagree hear...for instance if the wizard did not support the high preistesses and the city was destroyed what would the males do??? they would have no city and be an easy target for any other underdark race... also i kinda see the drow wizards as laughing at the preistesses behind their backs but the would not go against them...the might in small ways but no serious ploy by males would succed or even be attempted...(im my opinion) in my opinion being caotic does not mean that you betray and cause chaos all the time...if the drow were confronted by a serious threat they would all come together destroy it then resume their backstabbing... giving the choice work together or die you had better belive that they will imediantly begin working together... however gullidurth would not come to the aid of Sshamath if the shades went against them but Menzoberranzan would allie along with Eryndlyn to assist Sshamath and destroy the Shades...thats almost 100,000 drow and twice that in slaves that would fight... personally in if it were my campain i would ally the drow and shades instead of having them fight
Telagaunt 03-10-04, 05:24 PM	Calm down, threads like these are mostly for poster's amusements. It's like saying who'd win in a fight, Ryld or Drizzt? The two sides would most likely never fight eachother unless in someone's living room and the DM allowed it.
Nimzz 03-11-04, 06:35 PM	lol...sorry its just these posts seem a little silly some times...;)
Mumm-Ra 03-12-04, 06:16 AM	But that's no the point, you are missing the pay 5,000 XP and in turn can make a very powerful request thing. Sure, that can happen, but they are still 9th lvl spells and limited to that level of magic regardless of the god. The channeling of the spell requires a mortal coil, and if a deity wants godlike effects to occur, im sorry but he/she has to send an avatar and d it herself. And this can quite easily produce effects even beyond most epic spells .... if the deity in question is willing to do so. Epic spells are so much superior to mortal magic (wish and miracle being mortal magic, being relegated to non epic status) that their superiority should not even be discussed. Just read the chapter on epic spells on the ELH for enlightenment. By all means, if you prefer to make wish and miracle so much superior than epic stuff, be my guest. But it is like saying that a 1st level spell is better than a 5th level spell. Because the requirements to cast epic spells (TONS of gold, xp, an epic feat, lvl21) overshadow any possible requirement for wish and miracle, Epic spells are innately superior, especially those of high spellcraft dc's capable of being cast by Lord Shadow himself. Sorry, no. Ward of an epic spell? No big deal for Lolth, who has SDAs like Alter Reality at her command. ouch ouch ouch, didn't I warn how dangerous it is to bring deific intervention in? Because there is this little tacit rule, that if lloth intervenes, then so will shar. And lloth wouldn't last a second. The fact you had to bring in lloth shows how desperate your argument has become.
Mirtek 03-12-04, 07:05 AM	Originally posted by Mumm-Ra Sure, that can happen, but they are still 9th lvl spells and limited to that level of magic regardless of the god. Read the description of Miracle in the PHB or the SRD if you do not believe me. Miracle can accomplish things beyond the power of ordinary 9th level spells (like stop a vulcano or ward of a tsunami to save whole cities) Originally posted by Mumm-Ra The channeling of the spell requires a mortal coil, and if a deity wants godlike effects to occur, im sorry but he/she has to send an avatar and d it herself. Does she? The part of the cleric only requires the initial casting to send his/her request to the deity. From that point the cleric's part is over and it's up to the deity how to respond. And through divine sensing and SDAs a deity doesn't need to go to Toril, but can work the desired effects without leaving her realm Originally posted by Mumm-Ra Epic spells are so much superior to mortal magic (wish and miracle being mortal magic, being relegated to non epic status) that their superiority should not even be discussed. Just read the chapter on epic spells on the ELH for enlightenment. Epic Level spells are mortal magic. Read the ELH for enlightenment (page 71 to be precise), it says that epic spells are mortal magic (ultimate level of mortal spells, but mortal spells nonetheless). SDAs are beyond mortal magic. Originally posted by Mumm-Ra By all means, if you prefer to make wish and miracle so much superior than epic stuff, be my guest. But it is like saying that a 1st level spell is better than a 5th level spell. Because the requirements to cast epic spells (TONS of gold, xp, an epic feat, lvl21) overshadow any possible requirement for wish and miracle, Epic spells are innately superior, especially those of high spellcraft dc's capable of being cast by Lord Shadow himself. Yes, the requirements are more difficult, but that because Epic Spells allow more freedoms. You can cast your epic spells whenever you like and for whatever reason you like. BTW, Lord Shadow does not have the epic spellcasting feats. Up to date there are only two beings on Faerun who have it (and one of them doesn't know any epic spells) With miracle you totally depend on the whims of your deity. You can lucky if you get even granted this spell at all (maybe you have to pray for years without getting one, despite being high level enough to cast it) and even then each request will be judged by your deity and you can never be sure that it will be granted. Originally posted by Mumm-Ra ouch ouch ouch, didn't I warn how dangerous it is to bring deific intervention in? Miracle is direct divine intervention. That's what the spell is all about Also there's a difference between divine intervention of a deity just appearing and smiting her foes or divine intervention because a cleric did cast miracle. If Lolth intervenes because of a cast miralce, that's not the same as just appearing and to meddle without provocation. If Lolths acts because of a miracle, Shar has to wait until her mortal servants cast miracles too. Originally posted by Mumm-Ra The fact you had to bring in lloth shows how desperate your argument has become. There's no need to become desperate. Shade Enclave is smaller than even drow cities listed as minor and the population of Shade Enclave is also weaker than the population of the drow cities. All what Shade Enclave could bring to truly threaten the drows are her epic level casters and while powerfull, they are too few to make much difference. Even if Shade Enclave could destroy one, two or even three drow cities, they would eventually be defeated by superior numbers of better trained opponents (better trained for the average troops, not for the epic casters)
Mumm-Ra 03-12-04, 07:38 AM	Well at this point we just disagree on just what miracle can achieve. I say it cannot do the things you say it can, so there's little we can discuss further, as our arguments are both based on these two differing views. . Alter reality is NOT miracle, and casting miracle is not going to evoke an alter reality SDA-like effect. Miracle is on par with wish, it is most certainly not more powerful, although it IS better to an extent.But they are both 9th level spells and they achieve similar effects. And besides, even admitting to the true hidden power of miracle, Shar is more powerful, and after the time of troubles a god's power relates directly to the number and power of her followers, so shar's clergy can out-miracle lloth's. And I do believe that Shar would most definitely bring all her clerics to bear if her beloved shade was threatened. And if the chosen couldn't take out shade, i doubt a few tens of thousand drow could. The fact that shadow doesn't have the epic spellcasting feat is the only flaw I can see. But he will have it when his stats come out simply because of what he is-an archwizard of ancient netheril who used epic spells to shear off mountains. As spells like proctiv's move mountain and tolodine's killing wind are now epic spells, shadow will have access to them because he used a 10th lvl spell to shear off a mountaintop.
Mirtek 03-12-04, 08:38 AM	Originally posted by Mumm-Ra Well at this point we just disagree on just what miracle can achieve. I say it cannot do the things you say it can, so there's little we can discuss further, as our arguments are both based on these two differing views. Only that my view is grounded in the rules. The two examples I named (preventing a vulcano and waring a tsunamI) are both listed under the describtion of miracle in the rules. Originally posted by Mumm-Ra Alter reality is NOT miracle, and casting miracle is not going to evoke an alter reality SDA-like effect. [/uote] Miracle is not invoking Alter Reality, it's invoking your deity. And the deity can respong with anything within her abilities. So if your deity has Alter Reality, she can respond with Alter Reality. As a matter of fact, AR is the most likely choice a deity would use the respond, since now that the deities have game stats, they are pretty much limited with what they can do. AR is one of the very few explanations how deities can grant miracles. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mumm-Ra Shar is more powerful, and after the time of troubles a god's power relates directly to the number and power of her followers, so shar's clergy can out-miracle lloth's. Actually Shar has a pretty small following (if compared to many other gods). See Lords of Darkness for the numbers. The designers don't seem to follow their own "worshippers=power" rules to closly, since Cyric (e.G.) has more followers and clerics than Bane and Shar together (see Lords of Darkness)
Mumm-Ra 03-12-04, 08:49 AM	deleted post
Mumm-Ra 03-12-04, 08:56 AM	Only that my view is grounded in the rules. The two examples I named (preventing a vulcano and waring a tsunamI) are both listed under the describtion of miracle in the rules. In retrospect, I'll grant that the descriptions allow stuff like that. But mine are grounded on fact (mainly, that epic spell are so flexible as to allow anything). Epic spells can easily ware multiple tsunamis and prevent multiple volcanoes, as well as shear off mountains and hurl them at opponents, collapse underdark cave vaults, etc. I remember reading(or maybe I'm misremembering) that alter reality has some limits. I cannot check that because I don't have the books with me. Actually Shar has a pretty small following (if compared to many other gods). See Lords of Darkness for the numbers. It is not ONLY the following that counts, it is the power of those individuals surely? Therefore, by exclusion, if she has a small following, then she must have very powerful ones for her to be such a high rank. And power(or if you wish, quality) is infinitely more important than numbers. One of her clerics is in fact a quasi-deity, which I haven't seen in most other faiths (apart from stallac benadi of bane). Shar is divine rank 18. Her total pool of followers/devotion/power is higher than lloth's, and having more power than lloth, she can outdo her if she puts her mind to it. BTW I salute you, you bring about good (and varied) points, I do like discussions like these.
Telagaunt 03-12-04, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek BTW, Lord Shadow does not have the epic spellcasting feats. Up to date there are only two beings on Faerun who have it (and one of them doesn't know any epic spells) How do you know Lord Shadow doesn't have the Epic Spellcasting feat? Or are you saying this in the sense because it's just an unknown so far? Just because a stat sheet doesn't list an epic spell or two that a spellcaster w/ Epic Spellcasting doesn't mean they never use(d) a(n) epic spell(s). Could just mean they don't have one prepared or made.
Xavim 03-14-04, 12:11 AM	well when you discuss who would wup who in a D&D sense all you really have to go on is stat sheets. And when the stat sheet says big boy doesn't know how to use epic magic, guess what? There is no way that either side could win this war. While both parties have absolutely no interest in any conflict with one another, both sides are simply too powerful. The Shade have their crazy caster, but the drow do aswell. And while the Shade caster might be of higher level, you'll note that ALL highborn drow females are clerics of Lolth with VERY few exceptions. So while the Shade have more quality, the Drow make up for it in quantity. Not to mention temperment.
Kain's avatar 03-14-04, 02:47 AM	BTW, Lord Shadow does not have the epic spellcasting feats. Up to date there are only two beings on Faerun who have it (and one of them doesn't know any epic spells) I would certainly like to known how you know that when there are no offical stats for him... :bored:
ElGrecoETAC 03-14-04, 04:37 AM	Yeah, I'd like to see what 3E or 3.5 character sheet you're using. Because if you don't have one, you're operating on what I like to call "conjecture". As for myself, I couldn't care less about "who would beat who"--I'm more interested to know how you think that he could move an entire mountain top's worth of a city, through the barriers of planes, twice, using 3E rules without Epic spellcasting. Just curious.
Bocklin 03-17-04, 04:02 AM	But what if we factor in Lolth's silence? The clerics are powerless and Drows are known for being at each others' throats, so if the Shades play it the smooth way (i.e. pitting factions against each other, target assassinations, etc.), maybe they have better chances. Of course an all out assault is ridiculous. It's not the Shades' style anyway... Maybe they could band together with these mean Drow shadow wizards which appear in the WotSQ books and try to destroy Drow cities from within (as they did for Ched Nasad). Forgot the name of their association, but they share some common points with the Shadovars (e.g. ties to the plane of shadow). This would also raise the chances of the Shadovars to get rid of the Drow. On the other hand, I don't see WHY they would want to do so... I mean, these pathetics surface dwellers are a much more easy target and most of Netherisse ruins and artefacts are on the surface, ain't it?? Bocklin