Shadevari? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Shadevari? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elereth_Berantor
07-13-03, 04:42 PM In "Faiths and Pantheons" on page 173 in the Volumvax box, it says:

"Volumvax fancies himself one of the Shadevari, primordial creatures of shadow who's existence predated the creation of Shar and Toril itself--and has the arrogance to fit such an audacious orgin."

Does anyone has any info on what these Shadevari may be? Better yet, stats and info?

I'd like to use them as a main plotline in a campaign I'm working on.
Temporal Reflections
07-14-03, 11:51 AM They appeared in the FR novel "The Crypt of the Shadowking". I think there's a second novel involving the same characters, but I can't remember it's title. Probably has "shadow" in it somewhere. In any case, the primary hero's name is Caledan Caldorien.

Note that the citizens of Shade seem to have taken to calling themselves the "Shadevari". Really very annoying.

I had no idea that F&P mentioned the true Shadevari, though. Coolness.
Masakado
07-14-03, 12:01 PM Sounds like confusion between Shadevari & the Malaugrym to me.

I'll have to do some research on this.
Temporal Reflections
07-14-03, 12:19 PM Their form was distinct from the natural form of the Malaugryms, at least. They were completely blind, and tracked Caledan through scent (really really good scent; they effectively had blindsight); actually, I think they tracked the "scent" of a special ability he had that let him control shadowstuff with music (the book features the creatures kill such people several times), but they still seemed to get on well enough to warrant at least a small blindsight range. The mage of Caledan's group took one out by casting a spell on the creature that let it see again; it started going berserk from all the light, and fell down a ravine and got impaled on a rock. The creatures in the books were only avatars of the actual Shadevari, though. The true Shadevari are supposed to be locked up and imprisoned somewhere somehow.
Elereth_Berantor
07-14-03, 12:21 PM Wierd.

Oh, and the Shades, I think they are calling themselves the Shadovar. I'll have to check on that, though.
Sarelle
07-14-03, 01:04 PM History of the Sisters of Light and Darkness

This was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. Within this dim chaos stalked 13 lords of shadow, the Shadevari - whether they came form elsewhere or are children of the shadow itself, none can say. Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who were yin and yang to each other; they were so close they thought of themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form the Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Abeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all matter in Realmspace).

This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or fire existed within it. Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two sisters-Who-Were-One become divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune contested with her dark sister over whether or not to bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the deific battle.

At one point during the battle, Selune seized the advantage and reached across time and space to a land of eternal fire. Fighting the pain of the blaze, which burned her sorely, she broke off a fragment of that ever-living flame and ignited one of the heavenly bodies so that it burned in the sky and warmed Chauntea. Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere. Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere.

This essence entered Shar, ripped an equal portion of energy from her, and reformed behind her as the goddess of magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. Though Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy truce with her more powerful, dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge. The twin goddesses contested for eons as life struggled into existence on Toril and the other planets under Chauntea's watchful gaze. Shar remained powerful, but bitterly alone, while Selune waxed and waned in power, often drawing strength from her allied Daughters and sons and like-minded immigrant deities.

Over time, Shar grew strong again, aided by the shadevari who preferred night to blinding light and who stalked the Realms seeking to meld light and dark into shadowy chaos once again. Shar's plot to reform the world after her own desires was undone when Azuth, the High One, formerly the greatest of all mortal spellcasters and now consort to Mystra (incarnate successor to Mystryl), found a way to imprison the shadevari in a pocket-sized crystal sphere located beyond the edges of the world by creating the illusion of a realm of shadows.

The Lords of Shadow were drawn to investigate, and before they discovered the trick, Azuth imprisoned the shadevari with the Shadowstar, a key of shadows forged by Gond. The High Lord then hurled the key into the endless reaches of the cosmos allowing life to flourish on in Chauntea's loving hands.

Taken from Sorcerer's Place (http://sorcerers.net), which took it from a book item in Baldur's Gate II. But then it comes from a canon FR story, and I think a shorter version is in the FRCS.
Hope that helps.
Elereth_Berantor
07-14-03, 05:03 PM Hmm, ShadowStar, huh?

Sounds like a good focus for a campaign. Shar's followers want to find a way to get the ShadowStar back.

Now, how will thye do that... hmm... maybe by consulting some of the oldest devils. I'm sure Levistus might know, and would be willing to help if they could get him out of the ice... Asmodeus might know, but what could they possibly offer him that he couldn't get for free?
Ivy
07-14-03, 06:45 PM Originally posted by Sarelle
Taken from Sorcerer's Place (http://sorcerers.net), which took it from a book item in Baldur's Gate II. But then it comes from a canon FR story, and I think a shorter version is in the FRCS.
Hope that helps.

The story appears in Faiths and Avatars (2E), not to be confused with Faiths and Pantheons (3E).
Gotrex
07-14-03, 09:22 PM "Asmodeus might know, but what could they possibly offer him that he couldn't get for free?"

Well
as this is an item that shar would really want to get hold of
she could just threaten to utterly destroy asmodeus if he didnt tell her

after all she is about 100x more powerful than he is and could carry this out in the blink of an eye so i think admodeus would be most co operative
Sarelle
07-15-03, 12:55 PM Originally posted by Ivy
The story appears in Faiths and Avatars (2E), not to be confused with Faiths and Pantheons (3E).

Thanks for saying that, but it does also appear in the FRCS (3E), in the very beginning of the History section. I wasn't confusing F&A with F&P, because a) F&P doesn't mention the Shadevari, and b) I don't have F&A.

Originally posted by Gotrex
"Asmodeus might know, but what could they possibly offer him that he couldn't get for free?"

Well
as this is an item that shar would really want to get hold of
she could just threaten to utterly destroy asmodeus if he didnt tell her

after all she is about 100x more powerful than he is and could carry this out in the blink of an eye so i think admodeus would be most co operative

Well that is a matter for debate - one I am not going to get into. Personally I agree Shar is more powerful, but I disagree that she could kill him in the blink of an eye. I think she is only about 10-5x as powerful as him. He's the supreme archdevil, afterall. But it all depends on how you use the archdevils in your campaign, I suppose.

Glad to be of help, Elereth.
Triton
07-15-03, 02:51 PM I got the impression that the original Shadevari are the essence of shadow. Similar to the idea that demons are the essence of the Abyss.
As for Shar storming the Hells to threaten Asmodeus. Please refer to the ordeal that Mystra went through when she recently tried to force a dethroned noble devil to hand over El. Shar is at best as powerful as Mystra. Asmodeus
controls the Nine Hells
Ivy
07-15-03, 05:03 PM Originally posted by Sarelle
Thanks for saying that, but it does also appear in the FRCS (3E), in the very beginning of the History section. I wasn't confusing F&A with F&P, because a) F&P doesn't mention the Shadevari, and b) I don't have F&A.

Sorry Sarelle, I wasn't attempting to correct you at all, I was just providing a source in case the original poster wanted to find the text.

The reason I said "not to be confused" is that some newcomers to FR might have assumed I meant Faiths and Pantheons, looked there, and then not found the reference.
Gotrex
07-15-03, 07:52 PM The only trouble mystra had was she was creating a hole between the material plane and the 9 hells because she was throwing off all these spells killing thousands of deamons

if shar wanted to i dont think that she would take this direct aproach
i think she would likely sneak into asmodeus's lair (i dout there is anything in the hells that could stop her doing this with her being the mistress of shadows) and then talk to him and if need be kill him in his own lair which would probably take less magic than what mystra expended (mystra was pretty much flinging magic lft right and centre as fast as she posibly could)

if she was concerned about tearing hole in the fabric then she could posibly instruct the shadovar to plug these (though im not sure if its posible since i dunno what level the spell needed to acomplish that is - the netherese could do it but then that means it could be 10th level or higher)

And yeh maybe 100x is a bit much
id say asmodeus is either as powerful as a strong demi god or a weak lesser god
so while she may not be able to just destroy him instantly it probably would not take a whole lot of effort and there would be very little chance of her being harmed
Triton
07-15-03, 08:09 PM Gortex, I agree that a greater deity like Shar has a definite advantage over a Lord of the Lower Planes. Gods can very easily destroy a Lord just like Mystra destroyed thousands of devils in Hell. The problem is that Asmodeus is no new comer to hostility, and he has Ruled the Nine Hells for millinea by preventing entities like Shar from getting close enough to touch him. But I'll agree if she could get near him, he's bantha fodder.
Gotrex
07-15-03, 08:21 PM i dont think asmodeus does anything particular to keep the deities away from him physicaly

i mean mystra had direct access to him *spoiler* at the end of elminster in hell when she alowed halaster to cast a spell to wipe a few seconds from asmodeus's memory

main thing he does to not get fried or anything is to just stay away from there attention

hell in general never does anything to upset the gods
they mainly keep to themselves and concentrate on the blood war

most of the instances when hell involves itself with the material plane have been when mortals have done somthing to cause it
Sarelle
07-16-03, 02:11 PM Originally posted by Ivy
Sorry Sarelle, I wasn't attempting to correct you at all, I was just providing a source in case the original poster wanted to find the text.

The reason I said "not to be confused" is that some newcomers to FR might have assumed I meant Faiths and Pantheons, looked there, and then not found the reference.

:embarrass I'm sorry too - ivy. Maybe I was a bit too quick to take up the defensive position there (you have to have your wits about on these boards :D )
I now understand the stantement. Thanks.

Originally posted by Gotrex
And yeh maybe 100x is a bit much
id say asmodeus is either as powerful as a strong demi god or a weak lesser god
so while she may not be able to just destroy him instantly it probably would not take a whole lot of effort and there would be very little chance of her being harmed

Agreed.
Elereth_Berantor
07-16-03, 02:44 PM Well, keep in mind that there is a pretty big reason that the Greater Gods don't just go around killing lesser gods/planar lords all the time. Actually, 2 reasons:

1. Lord Ao
2. The other intermediate & greater gods.

Shar couldn't just waltz into Hell and say "Die Asmodeus!" I think Bane wouldn't be too pleased about that... nor would Lord Ao allow the Goddess of Darkness to destroy/overthrow the ruler of Hell.
Gotrex
07-16-03, 04:45 PM not really

its true that gods dont just go around killing each other because of other gods and Ao

but Asmodeus is not a god
he is just a extremely powerful non deity
the gods and Ao care about him dieing about as much as they care about the mayor of a small town in the silver marches dieing because the gods are only concerned about other gods and there worshipers and Ao is only concerned with the gods

just because hes powerful doesnt mean he has any proper status with them

and Bane would probably enjoy it
killing asmodeus would cause chaos and strife in hell on a massive scale
Bane is chaotic evil and is the god fo strife and so would love it
Triton
07-16-03, 05:24 PM The politics of the situation, is that Asmodeus is in charge , and most of the universe is okay with that. If there has to be a Nine Hells, Asmodeus might as well be in charge. Somebody else might stir the pot by declaring war on Mechanis to control law, or the upper planes and ignore the Abyss (heaven forbid a truce). The point is that as "mortal" as Asmodeus is. There would be a lot of deities who do not want to find out what would happen if the Nine Hells fell in to chaos because some deity wanted her Star back. Not to mention the deities who would want to stop Shar from getting the Star. See Prince of Lies as a reference to deific politics. After that check Tymora's Luck and Planar Powers series. The planes inevitably prefer balance to inbalance.
Temporal Reflections
07-17-03, 12:51 PM I agree that Shar would never do such a thing because it would represent an unwarranted disruption in the balance of the realms. Ao would smite that plan before it could really do anything. Trying to free the Shadevari and bring a state of pure shadow back to the universe is one thing, and is reasonably enough tied to Shar's deific nature that Ao hasn't already smote her for it...disrupting the order and leadership of the most ordered and evil region of the multiverse goes way beyond the bounds of acceptability.

That, and someone like Bane is likely to step in and go "muwhahahaha...my rank is at least as good as yours. *smack* Go away."
Sarelle
07-17-03, 03:08 PM Originally posted by Gotrex
not really

its true that gods dont just go around killing each other because of other gods and Ao

but Asmodeus is not a god
he is just a extremely powerful non deity
the gods and Ao care about him dieing about as much as they care about the mayor of a small town in the silver marches dieing because the gods are only concerned about other gods and there worshipers and Ao is only concerned with the gods

just because hes powerful doesnt mean he has any proper status with them

and Bane would probably enjoy it
killing asmodeus would cause chaos and strife in hell on a massive scale
Bane is chaotic evil and is the god fo strife and so would love it

Actually Bane is Lawful Evil and wouldn't enjoy it. He is the god of strife, but also tryranny, and he hates chaos. He also has alliances with the devils of the Nine Hells as far as I know - he has many devils assisting, and even in, his clergy.

Cyric however (Cyric is Chaotic Evil) would love it if the archdevils were dethroned.
1. Because is would create chaos, which he likes
2. Because he would likely try and exploit it to gain more power and further his portfolio of Murder, which in turn would get him closer to his goal of regaining the portfolio of Death
3. It would damage, and really annoy, Bane (most importantly), Mystra, Helm and Kelemvor who he all hates.
Gotrex
07-17-03, 07:11 PM i dont think tyranny plays that big a part when bane is concerned

simply because even if asmodeus was destroyed there will always been tyrany in the 9 hells
the chaos would only be temporary so hell would slip from tyrany to strife and back to tyrany again constantly keeping in 1 of his domains

and may support the idea simply to get at mystra and kelemvor

and yeh your right about cyric

also Talos would probably support it aswell simply because all you need to do to get him on board is say "we want to Destroy Asmodeus"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elereth_Berantor 07-13-03, 04:42 PM	In "Faiths and Pantheons" on page 173 in the Volumvax box, it says: "Volumvax fancies himself one of the Shadevari, primordial creatures of shadow who's existence predated the creation of Shar and Toril itself--and has the arrogance to fit such an audacious orgin." Does anyone has any info on what these Shadevari may be? Better yet, stats and info? I'd like to use them as a main plotline in a campaign I'm working on.
Temporal Reflections 07-14-03, 11:51 AM	They appeared in the FR novel "The Crypt of the Shadowking". I think there's a second novel involving the same characters, but I can't remember it's title. Probably has "shadow" in it somewhere. In any case, the primary hero's name is Caledan Caldorien. Note that the citizens of Shade seem to have taken to calling themselves the "Shadevari". Really very annoying. I had no idea that F&P mentioned the true Shadevari, though. Coolness.
Masakado 07-14-03, 12:01 PM	Sounds like confusion between Shadevari & the Malaugrym to me. I'll have to do some research on this.
Temporal Reflections 07-14-03, 12:19 PM	Their form was distinct from the natural form of the Malaugryms, at least. They were completely blind, and tracked Caledan through scent (really really good scent; they effectively had blindsight); actually, I think they tracked the "scent" of a special ability he had that let him control shadowstuff with music (the book features the creatures kill such people several times), but they still seemed to get on well enough to warrant at least a small blindsight range. The mage of Caledan's group took one out by casting a spell on the creature that let it see again; it started going berserk from all the light, and fell down a ravine and got impaled on a rock. The creatures in the books were only avatars of the actual Shadevari, though. The true Shadevari are supposed to be locked up and imprisoned somewhere somehow.
Elereth_Berantor 07-14-03, 12:21 PM	Wierd. Oh, and the Shades, I think they are calling themselves the Shadovar. I'll have to check on that, though.
Sarelle 07-14-03, 01:04 PM	History of the Sisters of Light and Darkness This was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. Within this dim chaos stalked 13 lords of shadow, the Shadevari - whether they came form elsewhere or are children of the shadow itself, none can say. Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who were yin and yang to each other; they were so close they thought of themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form the Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Abeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all matter in Realmspace). This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or fire existed within it. Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two sisters-Who-Were-One become divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune contested with her dark sister over whether or not to bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the deific battle. At one point during the battle, Selune seized the advantage and reached across time and space to a land of eternal fire. Fighting the pain of the blaze, which burned her sorely, she broke off a fragment of that ever-living flame and ignited one of the heavenly bodies so that it burned in the sky and warmed Chauntea. Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere. Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere. This essence entered Shar, ripped an equal portion of energy from her, and reformed behind her as the goddess of magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. Though Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy truce with her more powerful, dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge. The twin goddesses contested for eons as life struggled into existence on Toril and the other planets under Chauntea's watchful gaze. Shar remained powerful, but bitterly alone, while Selune waxed and waned in power, often drawing strength from her allied Daughters and sons and like-minded immigrant deities. Over time, Shar grew strong again, aided by the shadevari who preferred night to blinding light and who stalked the Realms seeking to meld light and dark into shadowy chaos once again. Shar's plot to reform the world after her own desires was undone when Azuth, the High One, formerly the greatest of all mortal spellcasters and now consort to Mystra (incarnate successor to Mystryl), found a way to imprison the shadevari in a pocket-sized crystal sphere located beyond the edges of the world by creating the illusion of a realm of shadows. The Lords of Shadow were drawn to investigate, and before they discovered the trick, Azuth imprisoned the shadevari with the Shadowstar, a key of shadows forged by Gond. The High Lord then hurled the key into the endless reaches of the cosmos allowing life to flourish on in Chauntea's loving hands. Taken from Sorcerer's Place (http://sorcerers.net), which took it from a book item in Baldur's Gate II. But then it comes from a canon FR story, and I think a shorter version is in the FRCS. Hope that helps.
Elereth_Berantor 07-14-03, 05:03 PM	Hmm, ShadowStar, huh? Sounds like a good focus for a campaign. Shar's followers want to find a way to get the ShadowStar back. Now, how will thye do that... hmm... maybe by consulting some of the oldest devils. I'm sure Levistus might know, and would be willing to help if they could get him out of the ice... Asmodeus might know, but what could they possibly offer him that he couldn't get for free?
Ivy 07-14-03, 06:45 PM	Originally posted by Sarelle Taken from Sorcerer's Place (http://sorcerers.net), which took it from a book item in Baldur's Gate II. But then it comes from a canon FR story, and I think a shorter version is in the FRCS. Hope that helps. The story appears in Faiths and Avatars (2E), not to be confused with Faiths and Pantheons (3E).
Gotrex 07-14-03, 09:22 PM	"Asmodeus might know, but what could they possibly offer him that he couldn't get for free?" Well as this is an item that shar would really want to get hold of she could just threaten to utterly destroy asmodeus if he didnt tell her after all she is about 100x more powerful than he is and could carry this out in the blink of an eye so i think admodeus would be most co operative
Sarelle 07-15-03, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Ivy The story appears in Faiths and Avatars (2E), not to be confused with Faiths and Pantheons (3E). Thanks for saying that, but it does also appear in the FRCS (3E), in the very beginning of the History section. I wasn't confusing F&A with F&P, because a) F&P doesn't mention the Shadevari, and b) I don't have F&A. Originally posted by Gotrex "Asmodeus might know, but what could they possibly offer him that he couldn't get for free?" Well as this is an item that shar would really want to get hold of she could just threaten to utterly destroy asmodeus if he didnt tell her after all she is about 100x more powerful than he is and could carry this out in the blink of an eye so i think admodeus would be most co operative Well that is a matter for debate - one I am not going to get into. Personally I agree Shar is more powerful, but I disagree that she could kill him in the blink of an eye. I think she is only about 10-5x as powerful as him. He's the supreme archdevil, afterall. But it all depends on how you use the archdevils in your campaign, I suppose. Glad to be of help, Elereth.
Triton 07-15-03, 02:51 PM	I got the impression that the original Shadevari are the essence of shadow. Similar to the idea that demons are the essence of the Abyss. As for Shar storming the Hells to threaten Asmodeus. Please refer to the ordeal that Mystra went through when she recently tried to force a dethroned noble devil to hand over El. Shar is at best as powerful as Mystra. Asmodeus controls the Nine Hells
Ivy 07-15-03, 05:03 PM	Originally posted by Sarelle Thanks for saying that, but it does also appear in the FRCS (3E), in the very beginning of the History section. I wasn't confusing F&A with F&P, because a) F&P doesn't mention the Shadevari, and b) I don't have F&A. Sorry Sarelle, I wasn't attempting to correct you at all, I was just providing a source in case the original poster wanted to find the text. The reason I said "not to be confused" is that some newcomers to FR might have assumed I meant Faiths and Pantheons, looked there, and then not found the reference.
Gotrex 07-15-03, 07:52 PM	The only trouble mystra had was she was creating a hole between the material plane and the 9 hells because she was throwing off all these spells killing thousands of deamons if shar wanted to i dont think that she would take this direct aproach i think she would likely sneak into asmodeus's lair (i dout there is anything in the hells that could stop her doing this with her being the mistress of shadows) and then talk to him and if need be kill him in his own lair which would probably take less magic than what mystra expended (mystra was pretty much flinging magic lft right and centre as fast as she posibly could) if she was concerned about tearing hole in the fabric then she could posibly instruct the shadovar to plug these (though im not sure if its posible since i dunno what level the spell needed to acomplish that is - the netherese could do it but then that means it could be 10th level or higher) And yeh maybe 100x is a bit much id say asmodeus is either as powerful as a strong demi god or a weak lesser god so while she may not be able to just destroy him instantly it probably would not take a whole lot of effort and there would be very little chance of her being harmed
Triton 07-15-03, 08:09 PM	Gortex, I agree that a greater deity like Shar has a definite advantage over a Lord of the Lower Planes. Gods can very easily destroy a Lord just like Mystra destroyed thousands of devils in Hell. The problem is that Asmodeus is no new comer to hostility, and he has Ruled the Nine Hells for millinea by preventing entities like Shar from getting close enough to touch him. But I'll agree if she could get near him, he's bantha fodder.
Gotrex 07-15-03, 08:21 PM	i dont think asmodeus does anything particular to keep the deities away from him physicaly i mean mystra had direct access to him spoiler at the end of elminster in hell when she alowed halaster to cast a spell to wipe a few seconds from asmodeus's memory main thing he does to not get fried or anything is to just stay away from there attention hell in general never does anything to upset the gods they mainly keep to themselves and concentrate on the blood war most of the instances when hell involves itself with the material plane have been when mortals have done somthing to cause it
Sarelle 07-16-03, 02:11 PM	Originally posted by Ivy Sorry Sarelle, I wasn't attempting to correct you at all, I was just providing a source in case the original poster wanted to find the text. The reason I said "not to be confused" is that some newcomers to FR might have assumed I meant Faiths and Pantheons, looked there, and then not found the reference. :embarrass I'm sorry too - ivy. Maybe I was a bit too quick to take up the defensive position there (you have to have your wits about on these boards :D ) I now understand the stantement. Thanks. Originally posted by Gotrex And yeh maybe 100x is a bit much id say asmodeus is either as powerful as a strong demi god or a weak lesser god so while she may not be able to just destroy him instantly it probably would not take a whole lot of effort and there would be very little chance of her being harmed Agreed.
Elereth_Berantor 07-16-03, 02:44 PM	Well, keep in mind that there is a pretty big reason that the Greater Gods don't just go around killing lesser gods/planar lords all the time. Actually, 2 reasons: 1. Lord Ao 2. The other intermediate & greater gods. Shar couldn't just waltz into Hell and say "Die Asmodeus!" I think Bane wouldn't be too pleased about that... nor would Lord Ao allow the Goddess of Darkness to destroy/overthrow the ruler of Hell.
Gotrex 07-16-03, 04:45 PM	not really its true that gods dont just go around killing each other because of other gods and Ao but Asmodeus is not a god he is just a extremely powerful non deity the gods and Ao care about him dieing about as much as they care about the mayor of a small town in the silver marches dieing because the gods are only concerned about other gods and there worshipers and Ao is only concerned with the gods just because hes powerful doesnt mean he has any proper status with them and Bane would probably enjoy it killing asmodeus would cause chaos and strife in hell on a massive scale Bane is chaotic evil and is the god fo strife and so would love it
Triton 07-16-03, 05:24 PM	The politics of the situation, is that Asmodeus is in charge , and most of the universe is okay with that. If there has to be a Nine Hells, Asmodeus might as well be in charge. Somebody else might stir the pot by declaring war on Mechanis to control law, or the upper planes and ignore the Abyss (heaven forbid a truce). The point is that as "mortal" as Asmodeus is. There would be a lot of deities who do not want to find out what would happen if the Nine Hells fell in to chaos because some deity wanted her Star back. Not to mention the deities who would want to stop Shar from getting the Star. See Prince of Lies as a reference to deific politics. After that check Tymora's Luck and Planar Powers series. The planes inevitably prefer balance to inbalance.
Temporal Reflections 07-17-03, 12:51 PM	I agree that Shar would never do such a thing because it would represent an unwarranted disruption in the balance of the realms. Ao would smite that plan before it could really do anything. Trying to free the Shadevari and bring a state of pure shadow back to the universe is one thing, and is reasonably enough tied to Shar's deific nature that Ao hasn't already smote her for it...disrupting the order and leadership of the most ordered and evil region of the multiverse goes way beyond the bounds of acceptability. That, and someone like Bane is likely to step in and go "muwhahahaha...my rank is at least as good as yours. smack Go away."
Sarelle 07-17-03, 03:08 PM	Originally posted by Gotrex not really its true that gods dont just go around killing each other because of other gods and Ao but Asmodeus is not a god he is just a extremely powerful non deity the gods and Ao care about him dieing about as much as they care about the mayor of a small town in the silver marches dieing because the gods are only concerned about other gods and there worshipers and Ao is only concerned with the gods just because hes powerful doesnt mean he has any proper status with them and Bane would probably enjoy it killing asmodeus would cause chaos and strife in hell on a massive scale Bane is chaotic evil and is the god fo strife and so would love it Actually Bane is Lawful Evil and wouldn't enjoy it. He is the god of strife, but also tryranny, and he hates chaos. He also has alliances with the devils of the Nine Hells as far as I know - he has many devils assisting, and even in, his clergy. Cyric however (Cyric is Chaotic Evil) would love it if the archdevils were dethroned. 1. Because is would create chaos, which he likes 2. Because he would likely try and exploit it to gain more power and further his portfolio of Murder, which in turn would get him closer to his goal of regaining the portfolio of Death 3. It would damage, and really annoy, Bane (most importantly), Mystra, Helm and Kelemvor who he all hates.
Gotrex 07-17-03, 07:11 PM	i dont think tyranny plays that big a part when bane is concerned simply because even if asmodeus was destroyed there will always been tyrany in the 9 hells the chaos would only be temporary so hell would slip from tyrany to strife and back to tyrany again constantly keeping in 1 of his domains and may support the idea simply to get at mystra and kelemvor and yeh your right about cyric also Talos would probably support it aswell simply because all you need to do to get him on board is say "we want to Destroy Asmodeus"