Shadow thieves, evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shadow thieves, evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Strife
07-20-03, 06:45 AM Hi, I posted this originaly on the General board and it was suggested that I should take this pice of work to this board instead...

I just looked at the Shadow Thieves entry in "Lords of Darkness" and altough it's stated in the begining that the three most common alignments are LE, NE and CE, the Shadow thieves don't come across as especially evil (well, at least not Neutral and Chaotic Evil...) when the text proceeds like this

"All ranking members can take comfort in the fact that their families will be cared for should the worst happen /.../ the Shadow thieves offer their members compensation if theyt are captured and punished. ... local guilds also provide for a captured operatives family if he should meet his end."

Now, is it just me who finds not entierly coherant, or would an evil organisation really act this way? Now it might seem like I'm just whining on a splat book - I'm not. The reason I ask if anyone else also finds this description deviating from evil, is simply because I wonder if I'm right (when I percept them as fairly neutral - and after all they would surly rather have goodcitizens to pry on than evil ones...) or if I have a sterotyped perception of evil. After all, they don't gain anything by being nice to orphans, right?
Azzadar
07-20-03, 07:00 AM Evil people can love and care for others. They may have families they provide for. Dr. Doom (the Marvel villian) cares for the people of the country he rules even though he is as evil as they come.

As for compensation, what better way to draw in recruits than bribe them. There has to be some reason why the lackies stick around.

I once played a LE character who was an assassin. Although he hate most of Faerun's organizations, he cared deeply for his friends (except for the CE halfling, but he proved to be useful). The rest of the party know how evil he could be, but aided him out of friendship.

The alignments are a guideline on how to act, not a rule.
Darkmistress
07-20-03, 08:28 AM Originally posted by Azzadar

The alignments are a guideline on how to act, not a rule.

Amen, brother.

We could also go on about how loose alignments in D&D really are, especially when you apply them to "real" people. But that's been debated to death, so I'll withdraw.
Astanphaeus
07-20-03, 08:49 AM Originally posted by Strife
Now, is it just me who finds not entierly coherant, or would an evil organisation really act this way?

I don't see why not.

You're reading compassion into that policy... and it may be that that's exactly the perception the Shadow Thieves are trying to cultivate: "See? We care. Trust us."

But the compassion may not actually be there at all. It could be all about control through guile and manipulation... a public relations scam.

On the other hand, it could also be that certain cultural traditions or sensibilities are taking precedence over the underlying alignment philosophy of the organization. It might be a question of honor... or loyalty to your own. "Don't crap where you live" so to speak. Such principles can transcend alignment. They might get a little warped in the minds of some folk, but they'll still be there nonetheless, and even the most evil of sorts are unlikely to trangress against them (not outright anyway).

Or they could just be trying to secure the best talent with an attractive benefits package... that's just smart business sense.

So, taking what you've quoted alone, no, I wouldn't say that it's automatically counter to an overall evil worldview.
Strife
07-20-03, 01:49 PM Astanphaeus I mostly agree with you... but could an organization with "all kinds of evil" (from law to chaos, that is) really have such policies? I have a hard time beliveing that Chaotic Evil people would care about others, even if it might be in their best intresst, wereas I have no trouble seeing a lawful evil person do it, if it's in their intresst. In short, is it plausible to have members of all three evils in one organization which embraces a "compassionate" policy?

Hmm. :embarrass Now I see (well, certainly not reason) this post is totaly missdirected. What I was thinking about has nothing to do with evil, but rather Law vs. Chaos and their intractions whitin for an example an organization. And that I'm quite certain has been beaten to death many times over.

Well, sorry for taking up your time instead of thinking it through before.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Strife 07-20-03, 06:45 AM	Hi, I posted this originaly on the General board and it was suggested that I should take this pice of work to this board instead... I just looked at the Shadow Thieves entry in "Lords of Darkness" and altough it's stated in the begining that the three most common alignments are LE, NE and CE, the Shadow thieves don't come across as especially evil (well, at least not Neutral and Chaotic Evil...) when the text proceeds like this "All ranking members can take comfort in the fact that their families will be cared for should the worst happen /.../ the Shadow thieves offer their members compensation if theyt are captured and punished. ... local guilds also provide for a captured operatives family if he should meet his end." Now, is it just me who finds not entierly coherant, or would an evil organisation really act this way? Now it might seem like I'm just whining on a splat book - I'm not. The reason I ask if anyone else also finds this description deviating from evil, is simply because I wonder if I'm right (when I percept them as fairly neutral - and after all they would surly rather have goodcitizens to pry on than evil ones...) or if I have a sterotyped perception of evil. After all, they don't gain anything by being nice to orphans, right?
Azzadar 07-20-03, 07:00 AM	Evil people can love and care for others. They may have families they provide for. Dr. Doom (the Marvel villian) cares for the people of the country he rules even though he is as evil as they come. As for compensation, what better way to draw in recruits than bribe them. There has to be some reason why the lackies stick around. I once played a LE character who was an assassin. Although he hate most of Faerun's organizations, he cared deeply for his friends (except for the CE halfling, but he proved to be useful). The rest of the party know how evil he could be, but aided him out of friendship. The alignments are a guideline on how to act, not a rule.
Darkmistress 07-20-03, 08:28 AM	Originally posted by Azzadar The alignments are a guideline on how to act, not a rule. Amen, brother. We could also go on about how loose alignments in D&D really are, especially when you apply them to "real" people. But that's been debated to death, so I'll withdraw.
Astanphaeus 07-20-03, 08:49 AM	Originally posted by Strife Now, is it just me who finds not entierly coherant, or would an evil organisation really act this way? I don't see why not. You're reading compassion into that policy... and it may be that that's exactly the perception the Shadow Thieves are trying to cultivate: "See? We care. Trust us." But the compassion may not actually be there at all. It could be all about control through guile and manipulation... a public relations scam. On the other hand, it could also be that certain cultural traditions or sensibilities are taking precedence over the underlying alignment philosophy of the organization. It might be a question of honor... or loyalty to your own. "Don't crap where you live" so to speak. Such principles can transcend alignment. They might get a little warped in the minds of some folk, but they'll still be there nonetheless, and even the most evil of sorts are unlikely to trangress against them (not outright anyway). Or they could just be trying to secure the best talent with an attractive benefits package... that's just smart business sense. So, taking what you've quoted alone, no, I wouldn't say that it's automatically counter to an overall evil worldview.
Strife 07-20-03, 01:49 PM	Astanphaeus I mostly agree with you... but could an organization with "all kinds of evil" (from law to chaos, that is) really have such policies? I have a hard time beliveing that Chaotic Evil people would care about others, even if it might be in their best intresst, wereas I have no trouble seeing a lawful evil person do it, if it's in their intresst. In short, is it plausible to have members of all three evils in one organization which embraces a "compassionate" policy? Hmm. :embarrass Now I see (well, certainly not reason) this post is totaly missdirected. What I was thinking about has nothing to do with evil, but rather Law vs. Chaos and their intractions whitin for an example an organization. And that I'm quite certain has been beaten to death many times over. Well, sorry for taking up your time instead of thinking it through before.