Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Myconid Sage 10-08-04, 01:41 AM	Got Shining South today at the FLGS. I've only had a chance to skim it but it looks pretty top notch. As usual for the 3.x line of FR books. Yes there are maps! New Human Sub-Race descriptions: Arkaiun Durpari Halruaan Shaaryan New PC races: Loxo Thri-Kreen Prestige Classes: Crinti Shadow Marauder Great Rift Deep Defender Halruaan Elder Haluraan Magehound Hand of the Adama Jordain Vizier Luiren Marchwarden Maquar Crusader Scourge Maiden Plus it has how to adapt two prestige class from the Complete Books and make them more FR. Which I thought was a cool idea. Great Sea Corsair (Dread Pirate, from Song and Silence and Complete Adventurer) Hin Fist (Sacred Fist, from Complete Divine) The book also has; new feats, spells, magic items (yay Hulruaan Skyship), Monsters (Beguiler, Behir-Haruaan, Dark Tree, Rattelyr-Dragon, Cyclops, Laraken, Mantimera, Starsnake, Tall Mouther, Tasloi), Encounter Tables, Weather Tables (like the Sliver Marches), and Country/Region descriptions ( Dambrath, Eastagund (with Durpar and Var the Golden), Halruaa, Luiren, The Shaar (with the Great Rift), Border Areas), and three mini adventures. Overall very similar to the UE book, mixing crunch and fluff, into DnD FR goodness.
Zweischneid 10-08-04, 02:16 AM	m.. must... h.. have...c.. can.. not...wait...any...longer...arrgghhhh!
Primal 10-08-04, 03:21 AM	Weren't Thri-Kreen a Dark Sun PC race in 2e ?
Zweischneid 10-08-04, 03:30 AM	Weren't Thri-Kreen a Dark Sun PC race in 2e ? Isn't that stuff out of print for years and done by a whole different company anyways?
Ranger REG 10-08-04, 03:34 AM	Is there additional or expanded rule regarding skyship combat?
warlockco 10-08-04, 05:09 AM	Isn't that stuff out of print for years and done by a whole different company anyways? "Same Company" New Name and Management :D Darksun was by TSR, and WoTC owns TSR, which is why all the D&D stuff has WoTC on it now instead of TSR. And Thri-kreen were introduced as a complete PC race with Expanded Psionics Handbook. And a few other books had introduced them as a possible PC before. Hmm will have to check my bank acct then see if my FLGS has Shining South also. Anyone know if the Undead Book is out also?
Myconid Sage 10-08-04, 12:03 PM	Mortus is out too, couldn't get it due to the fact, I gota keep some money for Aberrations. No Skyship combat details, which is a bummer.
protonik 10-08-04, 12:08 PM	Thri-keen were in D&D waaaay before Dark Sun. I first saw them in the FR Monstrous Compendium, vol. 4 I believe, the old 3 ring binder version but they may have been in one of the 1e monster books, though I don't recall offhand, been years since I saw those. The whole Psionics aspect was a graft from Dark Sun though, it wasn't a part of the Thri-Keen in the beginning. Jason
GothicDan 10-08-04, 06:05 PM	Wow. There are actually some PrCs that seem genuinely interesting in that book. Care to leak any information (whatsoever) on the Halruaan Elder PrC? *wizard fanboy* Is it like the Archmage class, or like the Guildmage..?
warlockco 10-09-04, 01:31 AM	Wow. There are actually some PrCs that seem genuinely interesting in that book. Care to leak any information (whatsoever) on the Halruaan Elder PrC? *wizard fanboy* Is it like the Archmage class, or like the Guildmage..? Circle Magic, "easier" Meta-Magic, and Signature Spells is what the concept appears to be.
GothicDan 10-09-04, 03:13 AM	Okay... Not bad. But.. Hm. In 2E the Halruaan Wizards were a very specialist-driven organization... And they were descended from the Netherese, of course, who weren't too big into Cooperative/Circle Magic... But.. Eh.. Signature Spells and Metamagic are both cool.. Now, how to somehow make a Red Wizard/Incantatar/Archmage/Halruaan Elder build. :D
Dassadec 10-09-04, 03:46 AM	How did you get the book this early in the month? My store usually doesn't get them in until the end of the second or third week of the month.
warlockco 10-09-04, 04:41 AM	One disappointment with Shining South so far that I can see if that the magehound Kiva isn't even given class/level information. She is mentioned at least twice that I saw, but didn't see anything else on her. Libris Mortis has a revised True Necromancer (14 level PrC) that makes the Yathrinshee from PGtF look feeble. Do you shop at a Gaming Store or a Book Store? My Local Gaming Store gets all WoTC items pretty much either 1st or 2nd week of the month, depending on when WoTC's official streetdate is. If you buy at a Book Store, you can expect to wait at least 1 week to 2 months before they will have it on the shelf, which is why I don't shop at Media Play for my D&D books. Sides I have been a loyal customer to my Gaming Store for the past 10 years since I discovered it (me and my friends refer to it as The Store).
warlockco 10-09-04, 08:37 AM	Still trying to puzzle over the dwarves though, there are NPCs with the Dwarven Defender PrC but none seem to have the new Great Rift Deep Defender PrC. Do like the Initiate of Loviatar :D Hurt me, spank me! So I can attack you better :D Too bad morale bonuses don't stack :D Hmm, just noticed that the Halruaan Elder PrC is one that you have to plan for from 1st level. Just like a few the other Region Specific PrCs like the Hathran. Erg is annoying that we have two threads on this book though. Something pointed out in the other Shining South thread is the maps see different. Looks like a different color palette set might have been used to me.
Magnificate 10-09-04, 03:23 PM	Are there any new cleric domains in SS?
Sammael_the_Chosen 10-09-04, 04:00 PM	I would hope not, I just got done cataloguing/reading/revising all published cleric domains, and I really can't imagine what other plausible domains can be made.
Magnificate 10-09-04, 05:07 PM	Well, me to. ;) I only managed to find 110 domains (not including planar domains, and those from Dragon Magazine). I'm still waiting for Human, Atheist, Antimagic, Art and Nation domains. Hope some of them will be in SS.
warlockco 10-09-04, 07:59 PM	Are there any new cleric domains in SS? Nope, just 33 Spells and Initiate of Loviatar.
Laszlo Koller 10-10-04, 11:47 PM	Does the Shining South sourcebook include a map (removable or otherwise)? In my opinion, the Serpent Kingdoms sourcebook dropped the ball regarding this point by not including a map of the covered regions.
Kuje31 10-11-04, 12:04 AM	Does the Shining South sourcebook include a map (removable or otherwise)? In my opinion, the Serpent Kingdoms sourcebook dropped the ball regarding this point by not including a map of the covered regions. Yes there is a map in Shining South according to the thread over on ENWorld. :)
warlockco 10-11-04, 12:32 AM	There are Maps in the book, but I don't have a Removeable Map with mine.
araznblair 10-11-04, 10:02 AM	How does the Jordain Vizer PRC look. I'm surprised that it is a PRC instead of a new class. From the novels it seemed to me that on had to be born with magic resistance in order to be a Jordain. How is this worked?
Torkwaret 10-11-04, 01:09 PM	Could someone be so very kind and post the names of all ( :( yeah, I know, long) the spells from SS (along with levels if possible). I won't be getting my book in less than two-three weeks, and my players are going to battle several renegade halruaan wizards (16 level). P.S. are there any artifacts in SS ?? Thanks for all the help !!
protonik 10-11-04, 03:37 PM	How much information is there on the Great Rift and how does it stack with Dwarves Deep? Jason
Demetrios 10-11-04, 03:55 PM	How much information is there on the Great Rift and how does it stack with Dwarves Deep? Jason There's a half page on the geography of the Rift (as well as a map on the page before), two pages (including a map) covering Eartheart and Hammer and Anvil, and lots of scattered bits elsewhere (every subject in the Shaar and Great Rift section, such as "Economy", "Religion", "Politics" and so on, is divided into sections, all of which have a "Gold Dwarf" section). I was just comparing the two and Shining South pretty much follows the lead of Dwarves Deep in everything.
Demetrios 10-11-04, 03:59 PM	Does the Shining South sourcebook include a map (removable or otherwise)? In my opinion, the Serpent Kingdoms sourcebook dropped the ball regarding this point by not including a map of the covered regions. There are lots of maps throughout the book, but no single poster/pull-out map. Each of the main geographic sections of the book has a full-page map detailing the area covered in that chapter (although the Shaar/Great Rift chapter needs two full-page maps to cover the area!), while there are many more maps scattered throughout detailing various cities and other sites. And I very much agree with you about Serpent Kingdoms! The only major flaw in an otherwise remarkable book...
Laszlo Koller 10-11-04, 07:54 PM	And I very much agree with you about Serpent Kingdoms! The only major flaw in an otherwise remarkable book... Demetrios I agree with you regarding Serpent Kingdoms. Other than the missing maps, I very much enjoyed the sourcebook. I look forward to reading the Shining South.
Bocklin 10-12-04, 04:10 AM	How does the Jordain Vizer PRC look. I'm surprised that it is a PRC instead of a new class. From the novels it seemed to me that on had to be born with magic resistance in order to be a Jordain. How is this worked? Hi araznblair! If they kept it as it was before the book, you can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/jordain This was some "Web Enhancements" for the Novels. In order to take the PrC, you have to be born with the "Jordain-born Template" (ECL+2), then train in something (Monk seems a wise choice to meet the prerequisities easily) and then you can start to take levels in the PrC. The Innate Template thing makes it quite realistic (you can play a character that is Jordain-born, but wants to go on another path). But this is of course old material of before the "Shining South" book. And ECL+2 is really annoying, that's a lot... Could anyone tell us if the PrC/Template things are still the same or are there changes? (I am not asking for the changes themselves, just IF there is a change; i.e. no copyright violation). Thanks! Bocklin
warlockco 10-12-04, 04:18 AM	Hi araznblair! If they kept it as it was before the book, you can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/jordain This was some "Web Enhancements" for the Novels. In order to take the PrC, you have to be born with the "Jordain-born Template" (ECL+2), then train in something (Monk seems a wise choice to meet the prerequisities easily) and then you can start to take levels in the PrC. The Innate Template thing makes it quite realistic (you can play a character that is Jordain-born, but wants to go on another path). But this is of course old material of before the "Shining South" book. And ECL+2 is really annoying, that's a lot... Could anyone tell us if the PrC/Template things are still the same or are there changes? (I am not asking for the changes themselves, just IF there is a change; i.e. no copyright violation). Thanks! Bocklin The Template was tossed out, was incorporated into the PrC The PrC looks to be relatively unchanged though.
Bocklin 10-12-04, 04:40 AM	The Template was tossed out, was incorporated into the PrC The PrC looks to be relatively unchanged though. Thanks for the info! :) Is it still a 5 levels PrC, though? It would be surprising that they managed to pack two levels of ECL modifiers into an already existing "short" PrC... Bocklin
ruleslawyer 10-12-04, 09:41 AM	Thri-keen were in D&D waaaay before Dark Sun. I first saw them in the FR Monstrous Compendium, vol. 4 I believe, the old 3 ring binder version but they may have been in one of the 1e monster books, though I don't recall offhand, been years since I saw those. The whole Psionics aspect was a graft from Dark Sun though, it wasn't a part of the Thri-Keen in the beginning. JasonActually, the thri-kreen are from the 1st edition Monster Manual II. In all likelihood, that means they were in a 1e module before that, though I can't figure out which one, for the life of me.
araznblair 10-12-04, 09:56 AM	Hi araznblair! If they kept it as it was before the book, you can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/jordain This was some "Web Enhancements" for the Novels. In order to take the PrC, you have to be born with the "Jordain-born Template" (ECL+2), then train in something (Monk seems a wise choice to meet the prerequisities easily) and then you can start to take levels in the PrC. The Innate Template thing makes it quite realistic (you can play a character that is Jordain-born, but wants to go on another path). But this is of course old material of before the "Shining South" book. And ECL+2 is really annoying, that's a lot... Could anyone tell us if the PrC/Template things are still the same or are there changes? (I am not asking for the changes themselves, just IF there is a change; i.e. no copyright violation). Thanks! Bocklin Thanks Bocklin. That makes a lot of sense to me. I like the idea of the Jordain Born and then the PRC combination. I think I'm gonna find a way to incorporate both the template and PRC in my campaign. Thanks again.... Arazn
Bocklin 10-12-04, 10:09 AM	Some other questions for the lucky ones who got the book: 1) I kind of have an idea of what all these PrC might be, but I still wonder about the two following: "Hand of the Adama" and "Maquar Crusader". What is it like? From which part of the region do they come from? What is the flavor? 2) How many pages are dedicated to the "fluff text" on the sub-regions? Would you say it is comparable to Unapproachable East or is it less? 3) Are there some info on the miniature Behirs of Halruua? A monster entry? Some info on how to get one as familiar and/or cohort? Thanks for the bits you can share with us, it makes the waiting more bearable! ;) Bocklin PS: to Arazn: you're most welcome!
GothicDan 10-12-04, 11:33 AM	And my most important (to me) question yet... How does it compare to the 2E Shining South supplement? For someone who doesn't actually play 3E/3.5, really, is there enough new stuff in there to make it worth it?
Demetrios 10-12-04, 04:05 PM	Some other questions for the lucky ones who got the book: 1) I kind of have an idea of what all these PrC might be, but I still wonder about the two following: "Hand of the Adama" and "Maquar Crusader". What is it like? From which part of the region do they come from? What is the flavor? Both are from the Shining Lands; the Hand of Adama from the region in general, and the Maquar Cursader from Estagund specifically. The Hand of Adama is a divine spellcaster PrC mainly dedicated to discovering truth and clarity (thus the powers they gain include decerning lies, piercing illusions, and enhancements to divination), while the Crusader is a more a fighter/paladin PrC whose members are dedicated to defending Estagund and its royal family. 2) How many pages are dedicated to the "fluff text" on the sub-regions? Would you say it is comparable to Unapproachable East or is it less? Pretty much the same. It looks like WotC has standardized the proportion of fluff/crunch in FR regional accessory these days. 3) Are there some info on the miniature Behirs of Halruua? A monster entry? Some info on how to get one as familiar and/or cohort? The Halruaan Behir is fully statted out on page 61. They are more of a pet than a familiar though.
Demetrios 10-12-04, 04:10 PM	And my most important (to me) question yet... How does it compare to the 2E Shining South supplement? For someone who doesn't actually play 3E/3.5, really, is there enough new stuff in there to make it worth it? There's a fair amount of new stuff on the Shaar (which wasn't part of the 2e accessory of course), and Halruaa gets a fairly major update (after the incidents in Elaine Cunningham's novels). Durpar and the Shining Lands get a bit of an overhaul in order to clarify some conflicts in past suppliments (much to their improvement, IMHO). The best I can say is page through it yourself and see whether or not there's enough new stuff for you or not...
Dargoth 10-12-04, 05:15 PM	Weren't Thri-Kreen a Dark Sun PC race in 2e ? Thri-Kreen first appeared in the FR in the 1ed module Ruins of Adventure (The Pen and Paper version of SSI classic PC game Pool of Radiance) which predates Dark Sun
Bocklin 10-13-04, 08:24 AM	Both are from the Shining Lands; the Hand of Adama from the region in general, and the Maquar Cursader from Estagund specifically. The Hand of Adama is a divine spellcaster PrC mainly dedicated to discovering truth and clarity (thus the powers they gain include decerning lies, piercing illusions, and enhancements to divination), while the Crusader is a more a fighter/paladin PrC whose members are dedicated to defending Estagund and its royal family. Pretty much the same. It looks like WotC has standardized the proportion of fluff/crunch in FR regional accessory these days. The Halruaan Behir is fully statted out on page 61. They are more of a pet than a familiar though. Thanks a lot! ;) Bocklin
ikki 10-13-04, 09:55 AM	Now, how to somehow make a Red Wizard/Incantatar/Archmage/Halruaan Elder build. :D You forgot: Jordain advisor (technically and legally illegal, but maybe as a shadow weave user..? esp in secret :D ) Shadow adept Ur-priest (of shaar, naturally :D ) Theurge (8) So letsse.. F1/W3/Ur2/MT8/RW1/Inc8/HEx/Acm5/Sha1/JoAx level 31+ ...and all soo sneaky.. ;)
Lashan 10-13-04, 12:27 PM	How much of the info is based on Halrauu? Personally, that area annoys me to no end. I am hoping that there is actually enough other stuff in the book that will make me want to buy it. Can someone give me a perentage of stuff that is Halraun?
Demetrios 10-13-04, 01:42 PM	How much of the info is based on Halrauu? Personally, that area annoys me to no end. I am hoping that there is actually enough other stuff in the book that will make me want to buy it. Can someone give me a perentage of stuff that is Halraun? There are six races or human sub-races in the book; one is Halruaan. There are seven new character regions in the book; none are Halruaan. There are eighteen new feats in the book; one is specifcially Halruaan. There are eleven prestige classes in the book; three are Halruaan. Of the specific magic items in the book (none of the generic arms and armor have any specific region): There are six specific magic weapons; none are Halruaan. There are seven wondrous items; two are Halruaan. There are three minor artifacts; all three are Halruaan. There are five major artifacts; four are Halruaan There are twelve monsters in the book; two are specifically Halruaan and one was created by a Halruaan and has since spread elsewhere. There are six major organizations listed for the South; three are Halruaan. There are seven smaller organizations listed; none are Halruaan. There are twenty brief descriptions of infamous dungeons of the area; five are Halruaan. There are seventeen encoutner tables in the book; three are Halruaan. There are six chapters consisting of 86 pages covering the geography of the South; one chapter of 18 pages covers Halruaa. There are three adventures in the book. One is Halruaan.
Lashan 10-13-04, 01:48 PM	Excelllent! I thank you for expidious and thorough answer to my question. You have calmed my feats. Thank you.
ruleslawyer 10-13-04, 01:48 PM	Thri-Kreen first appeared in the FR in the 1ed module Ruins of Adventure (The Pen and Paper version of SSI classic PC game Pool of Radiance) which predates Dark SunActually, Dargoth, it was earlier than that, as I noted above. MMII was released in '84, while FR (and Ruins of Adventure) only hit the shelves in '87. Question is: Was it a module published before MMII?
Faraer 10-13-04, 02:35 PM	I checked the Dragon Magazine Archive: thri-kreen were designed by Paul Reiche III for Monster Cards Set 2 -- 1982, and Monster Manual II was 1983. But as Dargoth said, they first appeared *in the Realms* in FRC1 Ruins of Adventure.
protonik 10-13-04, 06:59 PM	Actually, the thri-kreen are from the 1st edition Monster Manual II. In all likelihood, that means they were in a 1e module before that, though I can't figure out which one, for the life of me. Which is why I said "when I first saw the Thri-Kreen" Jason
ruleslawyer 10-13-04, 11:52 PM	Which is why I said "when I first saw the Thri-Kreen" Yeah, I know; I was just supplementing... :) as Dargoth said, they first appeared *in the Realms* in FRC1 Ruins of Adventure.*Urk...* I missed that "in the FR"; my bad!
Ranger REG 10-14-04, 03:45 AM	So, there is no rules for skyship combat?
Moscone 10-14-04, 05:25 AM	Weren't Thri-Kreen a Dark Sun PC race in 2e ? The Thri-Kreen actually did appear in a FR Monstrous Compendium appendix for 2E, but those older compendiums didn't have the "In the Realms" headings that Monsters of Faerun has, which makes it so much easier to pinpoint where they're found.
Moscone 10-14-04, 05:30 AM	However, the million dollar question I have is are the rumors true: That Zakhara was updated for 3E in Shining South?
warlockco 10-14-04, 08:00 AM	However, the million dollar question I have is are the rumors true: That Zakhara was updated for 3E in Shining South? Not that I saw, there some stuff that could be exported to Zakhara, but haven't had a chance to fully digest the book yet.
Lashan 10-14-04, 10:03 AM	OH, I remember the old monster card sets!!!! I wonder what ever happened to my complete set?
ruleslawyer 10-14-04, 10:37 AM	However, the million dollar question I have is are the rumors true: That Zakhara was updated for 3E in Shining South?In short, no.
Klownaveli 10-14-04, 10:41 AM	OK the book been out for like what a week now ? Anybody seen or head of a shining south wed enhanchent. Come on WoTc your slackin
warlockco 10-14-04, 10:45 AM	I noticed Kiva the Wild Elf Magehound is mentioned at least twice, was she given stats or at the least a class/level anywhere in the book?
Kuje31 10-14-04, 01:31 PM	However, the million dollar question I have is are the rumors true: That Zakhara was updated for 3E in Shining South? Mr Reid was asked this same question over on Candlekeep.com. His answer was no there isn't any Zakhara info in it but as was said above, some of it could be transplanted to Zakhara. And besides those are two different parts of the world.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 10-14-04, 02:30 PM	So if I were to pick up one book this month, would it be Shining South, Libris Mortis, or Frostburn? I'm leaning towards Shining South just for Halruaa, but I'm not sure yet....
The_Declaration 10-14-04, 02:42 PM	i haven't seen libris and shining yet, but Frostburn is to me a big disappointment. Frankly i think it really blows, though i was really pumped up about this new collection. I'd go for Shining South if i were a Realms fan (and i am), Libris Mortis is probably worth it too (remember Draconomicon...) if you plan to give some importance to undeads in your campaign.
Haer'dalis 10-14-04, 02:50 PM	Libris Mortis has a revised True Necromancer (14 level PrC) that makes the Yathrinshee from PGtF look feeble. sorry for the OT but...14 levels ??? are they out of their minds ??? since when do PrCs go for 14 levels without entering epic progression?? EOOT
warlockco 10-14-04, 10:44 PM	So if I were to pick up one book this month, would it be Shining South, Libris Mortis, or Frostburn? I'm leaning towards Shining South just for Halruaa, but I'm not sure yet.... Unless you are planning to do alot with Undead or the Artic, I would so with Shining South. Libris Mortis isn't as cool as Draconomicon, and Frostburn is okay, but a bit strange. sorry for the OT but...14 levels ??? are they out of their minds ??? since when do PrCs go for 14 levels without entering epic progression?? EOOT True Necromancer is a PrC that is designed for one to go directly into after 6th level. Requirements is Cleric 3 and Wizard 3. So the 14 levels of True Necromancer after that brings you to 20th level.
Haer'dalis 10-15-04, 10:23 AM	Just one more question regarding TN. What is his caster level progression ?
warlockco 10-15-04, 11:13 AM	Just one more question regarding TN. What is his caster level progression ? Over the 14 levels, they pick up +12 levels in both Arcane and Divine spellcasting. So at 20th level, provided you started as Clr3/Wiz3, you are a 15th level caster in both.
nekrolog 10-15-04, 04:01 PM	I'm happy that there was a fairly huge section (13 pages) on Luiren... halflings always get second hand treatment in FR. On the other hand, I really wanted more info on the Great Rift... they just kind of blew over it. Did anyone else think so? They included weather tables like they did in the Silver Marches book, that's good, but I don't think I ran across a single statted-out NPC in the book. I'd kind of like them to go back to the Silver Marches format, but as was mentioned it looks like we're locked into this format now.
GothicDan 10-15-04, 04:07 PM	They included weather tables like they did in the Silver Marches book, that's good, but I don't think I ran across a single statted-out NPC in the book. YAAAAAAAY!! Wooot! More of a reason for me to buy it! :D
nekrolog 10-15-04, 04:09 PM	YAAAAAAAY!! Wooot! More of a reason for me to buy it! :D which reason... the weather tables or no statted out NPC's? :confused:
Bocklin 10-15-04, 04:36 PM	They included weather tables like they did in the Silver Marches book, that's good, but I don't think I ran across a single statted-out NPC in the book. Well the good thing is that if/when there will be a 4.0 version, you won't be stuck with statted-out NPCs who are out of date. As long as you know that "she is Rog7/Ass2" (just an exemple) you should be able to re-create the NPC according to the new rules. The time that the designers do not lose to design NPCs in detail, they can use to write more Realms Lore or other good things that won't go out of date... Like the weather table! ;) Bocklin
GothicDan 10-15-04, 04:57 PM	Exactly, Bocklin. I despise fully statted NPCs. Why? Just why, I ask you? It takes much less time and talent to throw together some appropriate feats and skills than it does to write a page of Realmslore.
nekrolog 10-15-04, 04:59 PM	Well the good thing is that if/when there will be a 4.0 version, you won't be stuck with statted-out NPCs who are out of date. As long as you know that "she is Rog7/Ass2" (just an exemple) you should be able to re-create the NPC according to the new rules. The time that the designers do not lose to design NPCs in detail, they can use to write more Realms Lore or other good things that won't go out of date... Like the weather table! ;) I guess I agree with the logic there... but the time the designers don't spend statting out NPC's is time I DO spend doing it. I'm not fanatical about that though, it's not that big of a deal that they're not in there.
nekrolog 10-15-04, 05:23 PM	So, there is no rules for skyship combat? Nope. But there is a book from Bastion press called "Airships" that has a good set of rules. It's considered the better of the few airship books out there.
BobROE 10-15-04, 05:50 PM	They included weather tables like they did in the Silver Marches book, that's good, but I don't think I ran across a single statted-out NPC in the book. Well except for all the NPC examples for the PrC's which I think is a complete waste of space.
ruleslawyer 10-15-04, 06:20 PM	Yeah, me too. I guess I agree with the logic there... but the time the designers don't spend statting out NPC's is time I DO spend doing it.Yeah, but really, unless the NPC is the focal point of the adventure, how often do you need the stats? I know that I'll need weather tables for the Shining South if my PCs are there; I doubt I'll need stats for Zalathorm the Wizard-King. Also, individual DMs use so many different arrays of sourcebooks that it seems like you'd want to design your own NPCs anyway. Gothic_Dan: I highly recommend Shining South for folks who already have the 2e supplement; IMHO, it's just better in terms of "feel," in addition to having scads of info on previously undetailed areas (like the Shaar).
Kuje31 10-15-04, 06:31 PM	Yup, I'll go with the others. Shining South and Serpent Kingdoms seem to me to be the best 3/3.5 FR books to date, well besides the FRCS and parts of Silver Marches. I hope WOTC keeps producing FR books like the last two! I'd stop complaining then! :) :D
nekrolog 10-15-04, 07:00 PM	Yeah, but really, unless the NPC is the focal point of the adventure, how often do you need the stats? I know that I'll need weather tables for the Shining South if my PCs are there; I doubt I'll need stats for Zalathorm the Wizard-King. Also, individual DMs use so many different arrays of sourcebooks that it seems like you'd want to design your own NPCs anyway. I can pretty easily come up with weather on the fly, no interruption of game pacing... but statting out a mid to high level NPC is time consuming, and can't be done on the fly without interrupting game flow. That said, I'd just prefer both in a regional book. I'll go with the others. Shining South and Serpent Kingdoms seem to me to be the best 3/3.5 FR books to date, well besides the FRCS and parts of Silver Marches. I'll stand by Silver Marches... but they're going back toward the right direction with SK and SS.
Kuje31 10-15-04, 07:19 PM	I'll stand by Silver Marches... but they're going back toward the right direction with SK and SS. Parts of Silver Marches were just blah.. Yeah it's a cheesy way to say it which is why I said I'd go with parts of Silver Marches. :) But these last two FR sourcebooks have started to redeem WOTC in my eyes for FR sourcebooks. :)
GothicDan 10-15-04, 11:07 PM	Ruleslawyer and Kuje - thanks for the info, coming from people who have read through the 2E version as well. You guys just officially helped to put SS on my Christmas list. One of the few new 3.X FR books that I'm buying, besides FRCS, MoF, LoD, PGTF, and F&P.
nekrolog 10-16-04, 04:42 PM	Parts of Silver Marches were just blah.. Yeah it's a cheesy way to say it which is why I said I'd go with parts of Silver Marches. :) But these last two FR sourcebooks have started to redeem WOTC in my eyes for FR sourcebooks. :) Just curious, what parts of Silver Marches did you consider blah? I'm really not sure how SM was received by the masses.
Kuje31 10-16-04, 05:40 PM	Just curious, what parts of Silver Marches did you consider blah? I'm really not sure how SM was received by the masses. It was blah to me cause I have Waterdeep & North. Savage Frontier. Volo's Guide to the North. The North Box Set. All of them get more use, especially the box set, in my games more then Silver Marches does. Silver Marches also took a lot of liberties and had some errors in it as well, and also that book just changed some things via retcons and that just bugs me without realmslore explaining how the retcons happened in game. But it mostly came down to it being blah cause I have the 4+ other sourcebooks on that region. Yeah that's not far to those who only came to FR through 3e but hey that's life for using a prepublished setting and getting more material that has been written up over and over in 1e and 2e. :) However I will say I want the new Waterdeep book cause there is TONS more about Waterdeep we have never seen even though there are about the same amount of sourcebooks for that city, if not more.
Bocklin 10-16-04, 06:03 PM	Exactly, Bocklin. I despise fully statted NPCs. Why? Just why, I ask you? It takes much less time and talent to throw together some appropriate feats and skills than it does to write a page of Realmslore. Yep, great minds are meant to meet! ;) I guess I agree with the logic there... but the time the designers don't spend statting out NPC's is time I DO spend doing it. I'm not fanatical about that though, it's not that big of a deal that they're not in there. Yes, maybe, but let's see this: You, as a DM, can fully design a NPC if you know her history/flavor/classes/etc. BUT What you can't do is sit in front of your computer and just come up with canon/official Realmslore. So, since I have to choose, I prefer to have the designers do the job that I, by definition, cannot do (i.e. writing official Realmslore). To Kuje31: I do not see you mentioning "Unapproachable East" as a good FR book. Why is that? :confused: I personnaly find the book very useful. A lot of interesting fluff on the region, a good deal of inspiration for adventures, detailed entries on Thay and Rashemen, etc. Just out of curiosity: what don't you like in that book? Bocklin
Kuje31 10-16-04, 06:18 PM	To Kuje31: I do not see you mentioning "Unapproachable East" as a good FR book. Why is that? :confused: I personnaly find the book very useful. A lot of interesting fluff on the region, a good deal of inspiration for adventures, detailed entries on Thay and Rashemen, etc. Just out of curiosity: what don't you like in that book? Bocklin I like parts of Unapproachable East. :) For example the parts that have never really been giving Realmslore like Thesk or the High Dale. The rest doesn't interest me because I have the Dreams of the Red Wizards sourcebook and the Spellbound box set. :) Both which describe Thay or Thay, Rashemen, and Aglarond. And the Star elves, dont' get me started on ANOTHER elven race that FR DIDN'T need! :) Weather Tables for that part of the world would have been grand also like they did in Silver Marches and Shining South. But ah well. :( But most of that book was just more rehash from the older material. Yeah I know, I know, the new people need that material just as much and sometimes they can't find the older stuff. :) So it's just me being picky. But no matter what I still will buy FR sourcebooks even if I hardly use 3/4th of them or 3/4th of the material they contain.
GothicDan 10-16-04, 06:23 PM	Unapproachable East really pales in comparison to the Spellbound boxed set, in my opinion. Like Kuje, I enjoyed the parts on Thesk and the Great Dale, but that's about all. I was really looking forward to seeing some interesting spells unique to the East, too, but all the did was convert generic spells from 2E sources (Like Player's Options: Spells and Magic.) I'm not a big fan of PrCs in general, but I really didn't think many there were particularly good. ANOTHER demon-related PrC? Do we really need one? The Raumathor Battlemage seemed a little underpowered to me, too. ANOTHER berserker-type? And I'm also not a huge fan of feats, either, so those weren't particularly appealing.
nekrolog 10-16-04, 06:25 PM	It was blah to me cause I have Waterdeep & North. Savage Frontier. Volo's[QUOTE=Bocklin Guide to the North. The North Box Set. That I can understand. I've been reading realms books since around the Avatar trilogy, but only since the FRCS was released have I read any D&D FR sourcebooks. I only have to deal with inconsistencies between the novels and 3rd ed. sourcebooks... not the 2nd ed./3rd ed. ones. Yes, maybe, but let's see this: You, as a DM, can fully design a NPC if you know her history/flavor/classes/etc. BUT What you can't do is sit in front of your computer and just come up with canon/official Realmslore. So, since I have to choose, I prefer to have the designers do the job that I, by definition, cannot do (i.e. writing official Realmslore). Everyone has their preferred crunch/fluff ratio; I'd rather have the NPC's statted with lots of fluff, and less space dedicated to PrC's and silly new races. And as far as "official" realmslore... it's only official in the eyes of the writer as far as I'm concerned.
ruleslawyer 10-17-04, 01:33 AM	I can pretty easily come up with weather on the fly, no interruption of game pacing... but statting out a mid to high level NPC is time consuming, and can't be done on the fly without interrupting game flow. See, I tend to feel like the time it takes me to figure out weather really does necessitate some pre-written tables, whereas I never need to stat out a mid- to high-level NPC "on the fly"; if the players are randomly running into him, why do I need stats? Also, weather isn't going to be influenced by the fact that I use (among others) Complete Warrior, Magic of Faerun, Relics and Rituals, and Arcana Unearthed in my games. NPC stats are going to depend heavily on that. But I do imagine our priorities differ.
nekrolog 10-17-04, 02:39 AM	See, I tend to feel like the time it takes me to figure out weather really does necessitate some pre-written tables, whereas I never need to stat out a mid- to high-level NPC "on the fly"; if the players are randomly running into him, why do I need stats? Also, weather isn't going to be influenced by the fact that I use (among others) Complete Warrior, Magic of Faerun, Relics and Rituals, and Arcana Unearthed in my games. NPC stats are going to depend heavily on that. But I do imagine our priorities differ. I definately like having weather tables in the books. I hope they keep doing it with the regional releases. I think they're pretty much done with statting NPC's though. I ran a campaign in the Silver Marches area when that sourcebook came out, and used stuff like the Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive modifiers for NPC's like Alustriel,Taern Hornblade, and King Harbromm throughout the game. I guess usually when people think of a statted out NPC, they think about running him in a combat scenario. I usually just like to know their diplomatic stats and how they're protecting themselves with items and spells and such. You're right about differing priorities though... I must be in the minority. I think SM was the perfect page count/area covered, and had all the features I needed. The more recent books are covering more area in less detail with more PrC's and feats and less specific information. I still find them useful and pretty much like crack sandwiched in a hardcover though, so I'll buy no matter what the content, I'm pretty sure.
Bocklin 10-17-04, 08:15 AM	To Kuje31/GothicDan: Well, I am indeed a newcomer to D&D and the FR (even though I have 15+ years of RPG behind me) and I therefore have no point of comparison against which to pitch the new products. :) As a newcomer, I positevely love UNA and like it a lot more than "Silver Marshes" (I actually DM a campaign in both settings). Thanks to you, I am now considering getting "Spellbound" from Rprgnow... Are the two scenarios in the boxed set any good? To Nekrolog: I guess that if I had the choice, I would also like to have both (i.e. NPC stats AND fluff AND weather table AND etc.), but I guess that it is not possible. ;) Like you're saying: if we have to choose, we have different priorities... ;) Bocklin
Demetrios 10-17-04, 10:17 AM	As a newcomer, I positevely love UNA and like it a lot more than "Silver Marshes" (I actually DM a campaign in both settings). It's "Silver Marches", BTW. A "marsh" is a wet, swampy piece of land. A "march" is a land on the frontier, which is equivalent to the German "Mark". (Don't worry, I'm not trying to be the pedantic snob by pointing this out - I'm just concerned that (since your location says Berlin), you might not be aware of the subtle differences between the two words in English :) )
GothicDan 10-17-04, 10:57 AM	Thanks to you, I am now considering getting "Spellbound" from Rprgnow... Are the two scenarios in the boxed set any good? While I have personally never run them, the campaigns seem pretty good for a fairly simple, but possibly very influential combat-based scenario. There's good room for roleplaying with the NPCs in it, too. But the thing is, the two adventures in the boxed set actually hint at the possible rumors in Thay today - at least, in my opinion. But if your PCs don't know much about Thay already, it's a wonderful place to start.
Kuje31 10-17-04, 02:16 PM	To Kuje31/GothicDan: Well, I am indeed a newcomer to D&D and the FR (even though I have 15+ years of RPG behind me) and I therefore have no point of comparison against which to pitch the new products. :) As a newcomer, I positevely love UNA and like it a lot more than "Silver Marshes" (I actually DM a campaign in both settings). Thanks to you, I am now considering getting "Spellbound" from Rprgnow... Are the two scenarios in the boxed set any good? Bocklin Oh I know that and so I wasn't saying that I want WOTC to stop producing books for those areas. :) That's not fair for the people who just started to buy the 3/3.5e sourcebooks for FR. I like Silver Marches better then UA because again the weather tables in Silver Marches are VERY nive, which is another reason why Shining South is nice, and doing away with the HUGE stat blocks also makes it very very nice! Realmslore please, less stat's YAY! Now about those adventures, well they were set a few years in the past of the in game year so if you are using the 3e material those two adventures already happened. One was the one that takes place after Szass Tam went to Larloch to get the Death Moon Orb and Thorkal (yea I butchered that word but my books are in the other room) Seat. But I ran that one once for a group of 2e PC's and it was interesting.
Bocklin 10-17-04, 03:33 PM	It's "Silver Marches", BTW. A "marsh" is a wet, swampy piece of land. A "march" is a land on the frontier, which is equivalent to the German "Mark". (Don't worry, I'm not trying to be the pedantic snob by pointing this out - I'm just concerned that (since your location says Berlin), you might not be aware of the subtle differences between the two words in English :) ) Thanks for the tip. I actually knew both words, but I had never really paid attention to the one used in the name of that region. ;) I guess that it is quite easy to fall for the trap of euphony (?). I mean: to type things according to how they sound for one rather than like they really are. And thanks to Gothicdan and Kuje31 for the info on Spellbound! Bocklin
Lashan 10-18-04, 11:48 AM	I was a little disappointed with Unapproachable East because of the Thesk and Great Dale stuff! I have all the 2E products, but really wanted MORE on Thesk and the Great Dale. There is a lot more info then there was before, but I was really hoping on more information on those areas then before. I must admit that I really don't like Thay, Algorand, or Rasheman for places in FR.
ruleslawyer 10-18-04, 01:13 PM	To Kuje31/GothicDan: Thanks to you, I am now considering getting "Spellbound" from Rprgnow... Are the two scenarios in the boxed set any good?IANK31orGD, but I have run those scenarios, and I would say they're not bad, though a little heavy-handed. It is worth keeping in mind that you have to be really careful about not killing the PCs out of hand in the end of the second adventure, and that you should definitely use the 3e version of the gem golems (see Monsters of Faerun), since the 2e version is just way too much treasure on the fly. Personally, I'd also do away with the appearance of the Simbul in either adventure; it's really unnecessary and contributes nothing, IMHO. But yes, Spellbound is nice. I happen to prefer Dreams of the Red Wizards (guess I'm really old-school), but it's not a bad supplement. As for Silver Marches: I use it all the time despite having all the previous sources on the North. In fact, I find that the most useful combination of books for running adventures north of Waterdeep is SM and Volo's Guide to the North. Numerous geographic areas detailed by SM (Ladypeak, the orc settlements, Deadsnows, Vordrorn Forest, etc.) are new to published Realmslore, and a lot of the "retcons" are actually quite sensible, since these seem to largely take the form of lowering NPC levels (IMHO, a good thing given the grossly inflated levels published in many previous supplements; ever check out the NPC info on Jalanthar in Volo's?) or adding evil/neutral NPCs, again IMHO a good thing, since I felt like the North was looking a bit too "nice" as of the publication of the North boxed set. One "change" I wasn't so fond of is the low population detailed for the orcs of the North, but that's easy enough to fix.
p1n3_b0x 10-18-04, 08:17 PM	I was wondering if anyone had a Halruaan Skyship conversion using the stats in the Seafarer's Handbook. If you do I am very interested in seeing them :) thx, p1n3_b0x