Post/Author/DateTime	Post
avian tiefling 10-31-03, 09:27 PM	would it be possible to do a planescape/FR crossover campaign? essentially: could Sigil have a portal that leads to Faerun?
Kuje31 10-31-03, 10:49 PM	Originally posted by avian tiefling would it be possible to do a planescape/FR crossover campaign? essentially: could Sigil have a portal that leads to Faerun? There's one still in Cormyr (yes it is still in the 3e books, I recall seeing it) in the World Serpent Inn, in Cormyr. It is vary possible to do a crossover, actually most of my campaigns involve FR and most of the Multiverse......
Darkmistress 10-31-03, 11:25 PM	Didn't the 3E FR cosmology basically make Planescape obsolete, or something? (Mind you, I personally ignore it myself. Anyone that tries to use it within a certain radius of me will get stabbed with a rusty spork.) But otherwise, why not? Sigil have portals that lead just about anywhere and everywhere.
Kuje31 10-31-03, 11:56 PM	Originally posted by Darkmistress Didn't the 3E FR cosmology basically make Planescape obsolete, or something? (Mind you, I personally ignore it myself. Anyone that tries to use it within a certain radius of me will get stabbed with a rusty spork.) But otherwise, why not? Sigil have portals that lead just about anywhere and everywhere. It did, but there are still errors slipping in where the names of the planes from the Great Wheel are still being used. Underdark has such a error..... Rich answered: The principal excuse is that I was a knucklehead, and should have said The Supreme Throne instead. (It's the most Pandemonium-like plane of the FR cosmology.) quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Yokinobu Something else I noticed, besides the missing artwork, was that on pg 179, Throrgar, the shriekng abyss is noted to have planar connections with a layer of Pandemonium. However on page 257 in the FRCS, the cosmology presented possesses no such plane. I wonder what excuse there might be for such confusion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________ Rich Baker Senior Designer Roleplaying R&D Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Wooly Rupert 11-01-03, 12:24 AM	Originally posted by Darkmistress Sigil have portals that lead just about anywhere and everywhere. Truth! It wouldn't surprise me if the City of Doors had multiple connections to the Realms. Myth Drannor and Undermountain would seem obvious locales for a portal to Sigil, and I'm sure various wizards have created their own.
Yokinobu 11-01-03, 01:36 AM	In the Black Isle game, Icewind Dale II, there is a strange planetouched character from Sigil. The significance of this is that this game is based in the FR, so if we can trust this as a source then we know that there is a Sigil in the Realms, and that it probably has portals to the Material Plane.
Wooly Rupert 11-01-03, 01:54 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 There's one still in Cormyr (yes it is still in the 3e books, I recall seeing it) in the World Serpent Inn, in Cormyr. It is vary possible to do a crossover, actually most of my campaigns involve FR and most of the Multiverse...... Can I ask where in 3e this info is? And is there anyplace I can find more info on the World Serpent Inn, for any edition? The most info I can find on it is in Volo's Guide to Cormyr... I can find it in some 2e sources, but I don't recall seeing mention of it in any 3e sources
Kuje31 11-01-03, 01:54 AM	Originally posted by Yokinobu In the Black Isle game, Icewind Dale II, there is a strange planetouched character from Sigil. The significance of this is that this game is based in the FR, so if we can trust this as a source then we know that there is a Sigil in the Realms, and that it probably has portals to the Material Plane. Except IWD2 came out before the FRCS, which is where WOTC decided to rip FR from the Great Wheel/Ring. :)
Darkmistress 11-01-03, 02:04 AM	Originally posted by Yokinobu In the Black Isle game, Icewind Dale II, there is a strange planetouched character from Sigil. The significance of this is that this game is based in the FR, so if we can trust this as a source then we know that there is a Sigil in the Realms, and that it probably has portals to the Material Plane. For that matter, the CRPGs are the least reliable sources. They break and bend canon left, right, and center.
Kuje31 11-01-03, 02:12 AM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Can I ask where in 3e this info is? And is there anyplace I can find more info on the World Serpent Inn, for any edition? The most info I can find on it is in Volo's Guide to Cormyr... I can find it in some 2e sources, but I don't recall seeing mention of it in any 3e sources I cant recall where I read it, but I know it's listed some where in 1 of the 3e books (not the 3.5 books), but it was only like a sentence worth...... But then I could be imagining it also. :) Also you could use the web enhancement that I linked below..... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/World_Serpent.pdf Also the Tales of the Outer Planes sourcebook had info on the World Serpent Inn.
Yokinobu 11-01-03, 02:24 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Except IWD2 came out before the FRCS, which is where WOTC decided to rip FR from the Great Wheel/Ring. I don't think so. The FRCS was shipped to retail on May 29, 2001, while IWD2 was shipped August 27, 2002. You might be thinking of the Icewind Dale expansion, Heart of Winter. Originally posted by Darkmistress For that matter, the CRPGs are the least reliable sources. They break and bend canon left, right, and center. Yes, I kind of noticed that as well. But I figured a source is a source, at least worth considering.
Kuje31 11-01-03, 02:32 AM	Originally posted by Yokinobu I don't think so. The FRCS was shipped to retail on May 29, 2001, while IWD2 was shipped August 27, 2002. You might be thinking of the Icewind Dale expansion, Heart of Winter. Hmmm your right, sorry. But well it doesn't matter since officially FR is not part of the Great Wheel/Ring and Sigil doesn't really exist.... :) I wish I can find that small blurb where it mentions Sigil, but I don't recall which book it is in. :(
Dargoth 11-01-03, 03:34 AM	There is a portal to Sigil in a 3ed source book The portals located under The Abbey of the Sword in the Dalelands Details can be found in Faithes and Pantheons, page 161 Room P3
Shemeska the Marauder 11-01-03, 03:34 AM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Truth! It wouldn't surprise me if the City of Doors had multiple connections to the Realms. Myth Drannor and Undermountain would seem obvious locales for a portal to Sigil, and I'm sure various wizards have created their own. Two things: First, The World Serpent Inn connects to two of the wards of Sigil, and its an open debate if the inn itself exists inside Sigil, or in Cormyr, or is simply a demiplane by itself linked to both Sigil and Cormyr by way of portals. Secondly, wizards and anyone else don't just create portals to Sigil. You can't. Deities can't make portals into Sigil even. They simply exist and sprout up within any bound space across the planes at the whim of Her Dread Majesty The Lady of Pain.
Kuje31 11-01-03, 03:44 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth There is a portal to Sigil in a 3ed source book The portals located under The Abbey of the Sword in the Dalelands Details can be found in Faithes and Pantheons, page 161 Room P3 Thank you, this was driving me nuts since I knew I saw it but I couldn't remember where I saw it! Thank you! :)
Shemeska the Marauder 11-01-03, 03:52 AM	And I don't have my source books in front of my at the moment, or the 3rd ed draft of the guide to Sigil, but there's a few other portals to Toril inside Sigil. The World Serpent Inn being one of them, plus a few others I can't place exactly at the moment. And with respect to Undermountain, part of 'The Great Modron March' from the Planescape module of the same name took place in and through a portion of Undermountain. And to the person who said 'Sigil doesn't really exist anymore' ... *snort* FR, with all due respect to the designers, the 3e cosmology for the setting BLOWS. *cough* That said, its entirely possible to have an FR / Planescape crossover. The beauty of Planescape was that it encompassed literally every other campaign setting. Ravenloft was somewhere plying the border ethereal; Toril, Krynn, and Greyhawk in the Prime Material sat largely ignorant of the infinities of the planes around them; Spelljammer could cross the prime between the seperate crystal spheres; and Athas sat largely alone and desolate far from most travelled reaches of the prime and the ethereal, cut off from most of the planes for reasons little known. In a nutshell: you could go anywhere. And Sigil sat arguably at the center of it all, suspended improbably atop an infinate magic nullifying spire in the Concordant Domain of the Outlands. The setting was beautiful in so many ways, though the unique terminology, the 'planar cant' tended to scare away players unfamiliar with it. As far as links between FR and Planescape, one of the single most important, and reviled figures in Planescape history, Duke Rowan Darkwood, factol of the Fated, and would be ruler of Sigil claimed to be from Toril. He was in fact born in Greyhawk, but spent the significant portion of his life on the prime in Vaasa during the struggle versus Zhengyi the Lichlord (sp?). There's others as well, and because of Toril's curious number of portal to the outer planes in general, the realms have gotten a reputation for exporting more than their fair share of Archmages to the planes oddly enough, along with the number of the clueless it and every other prime world tends to expot in droves. The clueless being the planar term for a fresh through a portal prime denizen with no knowledge of the structure or nature of the planes themselves. In my current campaign, I have three characters originally from Toril. One from Amn, one from Halruaa, and one from Cormyr. Over the course of the plot over the past year, the characters have actually been back to Toril on two occasions. And yes, I'm happily ignoring the 3e FR cosmology. As is every other person I know who plays or runs FR within about 100 miles of where I live. I second what that previous poster said about a rusty spork... And if you're curious about Sigil and Planescape in 3e, please visit the official Planescape site at Planewalker (http://www.planewalker.com)
Dargoth 11-01-03, 04:23 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Snip [/URL] If you read my previous post you'll find you can reach Sigil from the FR even with the revised Cosmology
Faraer 11-01-03, 10:29 AM	Of course, D&D had a dimensional nexus long before Planescape -- Weird Way, accessed via places such as Odd Alley in the City of Greyhawk, and inspired by Fritz Leiber's story "The Bazaar of the Bizarre". I like it better than Sigil to use with the Realms.
Iakhovas 11-01-03, 12:02 PM	Indeed. And remember that the World Serpent Inn, first described in OP1: Tales of the Outer Planes was a 1st-Edition AD&D sourcebook. The Forgotten Realms has been tied with the "Great Wheel" for so long, its ludicrous to replace it.
Kuje31 11-01-03, 12:10 PM	You know, it looks as if the most disliked change in FR for 3/3.5 is the planar changes. :) Usually, at least once a month there is a thread about the new planes and how much most players dislike the new planes.
SSj3goblin 11-01-03, 12:57 PM	well i like the new planes... looks like im the only one
Pandelume 11-01-03, 06:09 PM	I know this is of topic sort of but is the Lady the same sort of being as Ao, or above Ao... ?
Kuje31 11-01-03, 06:34 PM	Originally posted by Pandelume I know this is of topic sort of but is the Lady the same sort of being as Ao, or above Ao... ? The best answer is no one knows, there are rumors, tales, and other things about her, but the truth is no one knows.
avian tiefling 11-01-03, 09:36 PM	:bow: thanks for all the info! to be honest, i probably would have made my own portal to Sigil anyways. and about the Lady of Pain/Ao thing. the Lady may well be a godess (after all, there was once a cafe in Sigil with it's own patron deity) but she would most certainly be inferior to Ao. Sigil to her is like Nirvana to Mystra. she still has domain over it, but Ao can override it, should he have cause to do so. Also, if anyone recalls the AD&D game Torment, it mentions a rumor that says that the Lady is just a bunch of uber-smart giant squirrels with an illusion device and a flight ring. :rofl:
Kuje31 11-01-03, 10:23 PM	Originally posted by avian tiefling and about the Lady of Pain/Ao thing. the Lady may well be a godess (after all, there was once a cafe in Sigil with it's own patron deity) but she would most certainly be inferior to Ao. Sigil to her is like Nirvana to Mystra. she still has domain over it, but Ao can override it, should he have cause to do so. Actually I would go with the Lady has more power then AO, she can keep any and all deities (this includes AO) from entering Sigil. She rules every part of Sigil, and if a deity wanted in, the deity can knock all he or she wanted, but the Lady would not let the power in. Besides AO only has power over Realmspace, there are other deities that have more power then AO.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-02-03, 02:53 AM	Originally posted by avian tiefling [Band about the Lady of Pain/Ao thing. the Lady may well be a godess (after all, there was once a cafe in Sigil with it's own patron deity) but she would most certainly be inferior to Ao. Sigil to her is like Nirvana to Mystra. she still has domain over it, but Ao can override it, should he have cause to do so. [/B] Umm... No... As has been said, none know just what The Lady is. She can bar deities from Sigil, she has killed deities, and Her manipulations have transcended time on at least one occasion. Ao is an overpower for a single prime world, Toril. And thats it. Ao isn't the supreme being for all of creation and all of the planes. Ao has effectively supreme power but only within the scope of Toril and as it related to keeping a balance on Toril. The Lady however sits within, and singlehandedly protects Sigil the City of Doors from the predations of every greedy deity in the multiverse, every fiend and celestial alike who would have designs upon the city, and every mortal therein at once. Sigil sits arguably at the crux, fulcrum, and balance point of the multiverse itself. And The Lady is as powerful therein as Ao within Toril, perhaps more so in some ways and perhaps less so in others. We don't know what She is. Only what she's done in the past. And with all of that taken into consideration, She's still an utter enigma. Ao has NO POWER over Sigil. If Ao had cause to attempt to take the city, he'd be in the same state as Aoskar the Portal Father and would be challanger to The Lady. She killed him and most of his followers in the space of seconds or minutes, and his dead petrified corpse floats in the astral plane pierced through with gleaming steel blades... Ao has a place in the multiverse, a very powerful one, but a very limited one at the same time. The Lady has a realm of influence in Sigil that makes a mockery of that which Ao has power over. Ao has one prime world. The Lady has the single most strategic and coveted place in the planes. And what do you mean an inn in Sigil had a patron goddess? With all due respect I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here... I can think of a few places in Sigil run by people with strong ties to a deity... but deities are barred from Sigil. They cannot enter without the leave of The Lady, or in a very very few isolated and unique incidents. (ie you can enter as a mortal and attain divinity inside the city. However this results in your near immediate expulsion from Sigil)
the_heart 11-03-03, 06:15 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Umm... No... As has been said, none know just what The Lady is. She can bar deities from Sigil, she has killed deities, and Her manipulations have transcended time on at least one occasion. Ao is an overpower for a single prime world, Toril. And thats it. Ao isn't the supreme being for all of creation and all of the planes. Ao has effectively supreme power but only within the scope of Toril and as it related to keeping a balance on Toril. The Lady however sits within, and singlehandedly protects Sigil the City of Doors from the predations of every greedy deity in the multiverse, every fiend and celestial alike who would have designs upon the city, and every mortal therein at once. Sigil sits arguably at the crux, fulcrum, and balance point of the multiverse itself. And The Lady is as powerful therein as Ao within Toril, perhaps more so in some ways and perhaps less so in others. We don't know what She is. Only what she's done in the past. And with all of that taken into consideration, She's still an utter enigma. Ao has NO POWER over Sigil. If Ao had cause to attempt to take the city, he'd be in the same state as Aoskar the Portal Father and would be challanger to The Lady. She killed him and most of his followers in the space of seconds or minutes, and his dead petrified corpse floats in the astral plane pierced through with gleaming steel blades... Ao has a place in the multiverse, a very powerful one, but a very limited one at the same time. The Lady has a realm of influence in Sigil that makes a mockery of that which Ao has power over. Ao has one prime world. The Lady has the single most strategic and coveted place in the planes. And what do you mean an inn in Sigil had a patron goddess? With all due respect I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here... I can think of a few places in Sigil run by people with strong ties to a deity... but deities are barred from Sigil. They cannot enter without the leave of The Lady, or in a very very few isolated and unique incidents. (ie you can enter as a mortal and attain divinity inside the city. However this results in your near immediate expulsion from Sigil) that sounds to me like a meeting of equals. absolute power over a limited area, no matter the strategic worth. on Toril Ao is boss. in Sigil, The Lady. my guess is that The Lady is the overpower of sigil who felt that the gods were too much of a dangerous imbalance, and promptly got rid of them...i'm sure Ao could do that too, but he is too lazy to take over the essential day to day matters, you know what CEO's can be like.....
Wooly Rupert 11-03-03, 10:13 AM	Not to go off on a tangent, but can someone explain to me why it's so bad that the Realms are no longer part of the Great Wheel, or whatever? Just because they decided to tweak the cosmology, that doesn't mean that the Realms is now cut off from the rest of the multiverse. The FRCS plainly acknowledges that some deities came from other worlds. And I cannot find anything that says characters can't move about between planes, or that spelljamming is no longer possible. So what's the big deal?
Kuje31 11-03-03, 01:24 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Not to go off on a tangent, but can someone explain to me why it's so bad that the Realms are no longer part of the Great Wheel, or whatever? Just because they decided to tweak the cosmology, that doesn't mean that the Realms is now cut off from the rest of the multiverse. The FRCS plainly acknowledges that some deities came from other worlds. And I cannot find anything that says characters can't move about between planes, or that spelljamming is no longer possible. So what's the big deal? To me, it's cause it invalidates almost 20 years worth of FR material, fluff, history, and other effects. There have been tons of threads on this, but most of them are buried by now. It also invalidates Planescape (which is my 2nd favorite setting). Yes the FRCS does say some deities came from other worlds, but it made (again to me) more sense when all the worlds were connected, and its ironic, because in Planescape, FR was one of the most knowledgeable worlds, who had the most plane walkers and knowledge about the planes. Now it seems they are clueless. :)
Wooly Rupert 11-03-03, 01:35 PM	But see, I'm not reading it that way. There is nothing that prohibits planar travel, so I don't see the issue there. Okay, I can see being irked by them changing the cosmology. But the fact that other worlds are mentioned means that they are, in fact, out there. The way I see it, the Realms is in it's own weird Prime Material Plane that simply attaches to the rest a bit differently. Looking at it this way, everything is still mostly kosher. Besides, it can all be ignored, ne? If you don't like the current cosmology, keep the old one.
Iakhovas 11-03-03, 02:03 PM	In addition to the reasons Kuje31 listed, my major beef with the change in cosmology... is that no one asked for it. There was no outcry for this change at all. These boards are littered with people complaining left and right (myself more than others) about things that are "broke" with the Forgotten Realms. I cannot recall a single thread over the years where someone thought the "Great Wheel" was broken and needed to be fixed. The 3rd-Edition designers invented a problem that didn't exist. Many of us would like designers to spend their creative juices *adding* new content to the Realms, not breaking old stuff.
Kuje31 11-03-03, 02:21 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert [BOkay, I can see being irked by them changing the cosmology. But the fact that other worlds are mentioned means that they are, in fact, out there. The way I see it, the Realms is in it's own weird Prime Material Plane that simply attaches to the rest a bit differently. Looking at it this way, everything is still mostly kosher. Besides, it can all be ignored, ne? If you don't like the current cosmology, keep the old one. [/B] Its not kosher though, since there are tons of holes now in FR's history, because of this change. And I never said I don't use the old Planescape material, which is what I do, do. But you asked why a lot of people have problems with it, and so I listed some of my reasons why. If you want to read more about the problems this changed caused, see this thread. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57419&highlight=sigil
Kuje31 11-03-03, 02:23 PM	Originally posted by Iakhovas In addition to the reasons Kuje31 listed, my major beef with the change in cosmology... is that no one asked for it. There was no outcry for this change at all. These boards are littered with people complaining left and right (myself more than others) about things that are "broke" with the Forgotten Realms. I cannot recall a single thread over the years where someone thought the "Great Wheel" was broken and needed to be fixed. The 3rd-Edition designers invented a problem that didn't exist. Many of us would like designers to spend their creative juices *adding* new content to the Realms, not breaking old stuff. You are not the only one who complains. :). I've done it on and off for almost two years now.... But we are a minority, so it just looks as if we are complaining and whining, when most of our arguements really are valid........ At least to us, and to those who still have and use the old material......
Wooly Rupert 11-03-03, 06:44 PM	Okay, since my last post, I have read the Manual of the Planes FAQ. I have also read a majority of the posts talking about the changed cosmology. I hearby withdraw all previous comments on the new cosmology -- they foo'ed the moose on that one. I'm not gonna use the tree, either.
Dargoth 11-03-03, 07:18 PM	Originally posted by Iakhovas In addition to the reasons Kuje31 listed, my major beef with the change in cosmology... is that no one asked for it. There was no outcry for this change at all. These boards are littered with people complaining left and right (myself more than others) about things that are "broke" with the Forgotten Realms. I cannot recall a single thread over the years where someone thought the "Great Wheel" was broken and needed to be fixed. The 3rd-Edition designers invented a problem that didn't exist. Many of us would like designers to spend their creative juices *adding* new content to the Realms, not breaking old stuff. As far as Im concenred the Jury still out on the New Cosmology. the failing is that the FR team didnt detail new FR cosmology. Im convinced that alot of the *****ing that surrounds the new cosmology comes from the fact that there isnt enough info on it. There needs to be an FR manual of the Planes
Darkmistress 11-04-03, 03:41 AM	The 3E cosmology, IMO, has left FR a mess of inconsistencies. Oh, it was a mess before, but now it's an even bigger one. You know what. If the new cosmology runs as they say it does, shouldn't the Blood War be taking place on Toril? Where'd all the puny mortals, the Drizzts and Elminsters, be, then? It just doesn't work. No way, no how. And yes, I do feel very strongly about this issue -- I'm deeply fond of the Plancescape setting, and the 3E FR cosmology all but invalidates it. I could write a painful, long rant about this, but I'm not going to. It won't do a thing, so the best I can do is pretend that the cosmology is the way it's always been. *walks off to www.planewalker.com in a huff, waving a "Official 3E Planescape rules!" flag*
Gadodel 11-04-03, 04:16 AM	Originally posted by Faraer Of course, D&D had a dimensional nexus long before Planescape -- Weird Way, accessed via places such as Odd Alley in the City of Greyhawk, and inspired by Fritz Leiber's story "The Bazaar of the Bizarre". I like it better than Sigil to use with the Realms. :D Cool...yep.
avian tiefling 11-04-03, 08:01 PM	FYI, much of my resources may be outdated, as they consist mainly of the books Abyssal Warriors and Shadowdale, and Planescape: Torment. Shadowdale (which i read quite a while ago, and am probably forgetting something) talks about Ao being overlord of the Pantheon, although, now that i think about it, he may have just been serving as a conduit to the "Divine Will" or whatever from the novel counterpart to BGII: ToB. The god of the cafe i mentioned is from Abyssal Warriors, and does indeed die. then is brought back as a colassal undead behemoth by a fiend lord to wreak havoc for the Tanar'ri side of the blood wars, but that's not the point. The book doesn't mention *how* became a god, but he was most definitely a minor god, his only domain being the aforementioned cafe. as i said, my sources are likely outdated. The Tiefling
Shemeska the Marauder 11-04-03, 09:27 PM	*nodding* I've got the Bloodwar trilogy novels, and never made it all the way through them because they're a mockery of the setting with the number of liberties it takes with setting canon. They're not considered canonical sources of Planescape information, nor are they being considered so in Planescape 3e as far as I know. I think everyone has just largely ignored them since 2e and continued doing so now in 3e.
Vix Damnul 11-04-03, 09:32 PM	I think that god was the former cat lord, and the cafe was the host to his spirit, while his body was drifting in the astral or ethereal, so, technically, at the time of his residence in Sigil, he was a dead god. Yeah, the FR cosmology is... bad. awkward, confusing, poorly done, unnecessary, and doesn't jive well with me. I could be wrong and or biased on that, but i feel that it was just a bad idea, considering how much of planescape has been yoinked into the realms (portals everywhere, planetouched all over the place, etc).
avian tiefling 11-05-03, 08:54 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder *nodding* I've got the Bloodwar trilogy novels, and never made it all the way through them because they're a mockery of the setting with the number of liberties it takes with setting canon. They're not considered canonical sources of Planescape information, nor are they being considered so in Planescape 3e as far as I know. I think everyone has just largely ignored them since 2e and continued doing so now in 3e. I always thought that rulebooks should have absolutely nothing to do with novels. Writers shouldn't limit their work to what a book says. that's the beauty of fantasy writing, it can be as abstract as the author's mind. and any historical stuff that is in books i consider to be fact as far as my campaigns are concerned. but it would seem that's just my opinion.
Darkmistress 11-06-03, 04:15 AM	I agree that rules may not always translate well to literature, but when you're writing for a world that does have a set of rules, I think the rules should at least be loosely followed -- not raped, murdered, and have their grave danced on. For the record, the Bloodwar trilogy was... interesting, but it left a bad, bad taste in my mouth. Something about it tickles me the wrong way. I haven't been able to find a copy of Pages of Pain, so the only Plancescape fiction that I hold to is Plancescape: Torment. And no, I don't mean the godawful, fruit-bruising, headache-inducing official novelization.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-06-03, 05:20 AM	Aye, the Bloodwar trilogy was a hack job considering established Planescape canon. At least Pages of Pain was well written as a novel and interesting, but to enjoy it you have to assume it isn't claiming to be truth as far as again, prior established canon is concerned. Hence why neither the trilogy or Pages of Pain is considered canon for Sigil's history, Planescape, or the planes in general. Again I think Troy Denning did write a good book for Pages of Pain though, just too many liberties taken with the setting. I've never read the Torment Novelization myself actually.
Darkmistress 11-06-03, 05:57 AM	I've never read the Torment Novelization myself actually. Word of advice: don't. Unless you buy the game and get a free copy with it.
avian tiefling 11-06-03, 08:22 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder I've never read the Torment Novelization myself actually. neither have i, but the game is loads of fun, and i don't intend to spoil it by reading the book. the only game-novel tie-ins i have read are the BG series and Pool of Radiance. both were good. i have not yet been able to find a copy of the 1st or 3rd books in the Bloodwars. i'll admit that AW doesn't follow the rules very much, but i think that some features might be interesting for a campaign, namely the plane-traveling seedpods and cursed alpenhorns. originally posted by Vix Damnul I think that god was the former cat lord, and the cafe was the host to his spirit, while his body was drifting in the astral or ethereal, so, technically, at the time of his residence in Sigil, he was a dead god. i haven't read the book in a while, but i suppose that would be true; as it mentions when a deva encounters it, or its corpse rather, on the Astral plane.
primemover003 11-06-03, 08:59 PM	I've never played Torment, but the book wasn't that bad... as game novelizations go. Both BG books were crappy though. Actually the best Planar book I've read happens to be a FR book. The Glass Prison by Monte Cook is awesome. The main character is a Cambion, and the opening chapter is set somewhere in the Lower Planes... but's pretty cool. The only thing I never got was Vheod Runechild's "Taint". It's kinda like the mouth thing on D's hand in Vampire Hunter D. Just plain weird.
Sir Taylor 11-07-03, 05:51 PM	it's your game, do what you want.