Silver Marches Orcs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Silver Marches Orcs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pandionpdg
08-07-03, 04:36 PM Are there any estimates on the number of orcs(amongst all of the tribes) in the Silver Marches?
Kindjal
08-07-03, 05:52 PM Enough for your PC and those who come after ... ;)

I don't think there is any estimation.
Orcs are like rabbits.

Look for the number of orcs in Obould's tribe,
each of his sons may lead a similar tribe.

In the encounter tables in "Silver Marches"
you see the probability to meet orcs by region,
and the composition of such groups.
Gilchrest
08-07-03, 09:38 PM Yes, Im sure there are thousands upon thousands ..... It talks of how King Obould has amassed a large amounts in the mountains and they could be unleashed at any time....

:behold:
pandionpdg
08-08-03, 11:00 AM The reason I ask is that the orc hoarde war is about to begin IMC. Trying to get a decent figure of how many orcs there are. So, Obould's sons also command around the same number of tuskers as Obould himself?
JLXC
08-08-03, 02:19 PM After having read the silver marches campaign book, I would say that the King could probably get at least 150,000 Orcs or so into an army and kick butt.

Of course this means at least 15,000 of those orcs would be 3rd level and higher, which is scary, but hey it's supposed to be scary right?
pandionpdg
08-08-03, 03:01 PM Wow! I was thinking more along the lines of 20,000 tuskers. If you compare the 150,000 number with the military numbers of the Alliance it seems like all the cities in the Silver Marches should be wiped out.
Astair_Strife'Iriden
08-08-03, 08:23 PM Didn't the Core RB said he had a Tribe of 2000 counting the woman and childeren? If anything I'd say 20,000 is enough.
JLXC
08-09-03, 02:29 AM Actually 20,000 orcs would be slaughtered by the alliance. Not only are there dozens of high level mages and clerics to contend with, but Silverymoon has 2 Dragons a Gold and a Silver that would act on it's behalf.

In any case in the book it talks about in 1367 DR 150,000 orcs under King Greneire attacked the Orc King Obould at the Citadel of Many Arrows. So this 150,000 orcs fought probably more than 100,000 other orcs for four months...

Are you guys are SERIOUSLY suggesting that when a horde comes out to strike the combined might of the Silver Marches... that maybe 20,000 will come out? They fight with more than that orc vs. orc... you think they'd be able to do better when attacking others wouldn't you?

Edit: Wow I forgot how weak Evil is in the FR. I just read that Obould has a mighty 4,500 orcs under control right now... oh how scary. My old party of 13th level characters could wipe them away as a joke. So a quarter million orcs fought eachother to death, so that maybe sometimes a few thousand could scare the yokels in the silver marches. The FR never ceases to amaze me.

:rolleyes:
Voiceman
08-10-03, 12:41 PM Originally posted by JLXC

Edit: Wow I forgot how weak Evil is in the FR. I just read that Obould has a mighty 4,500 orcs under control right now... oh how scary. My old party of 13th level characters could wipe them away as a joke.

I wouldn't bet on it. There is Obould him self (9th lvl), Black Lorag (13th level Adept (NPC class), his sons 3x6-7th lvl, his spymaster/mistriss 7th lvl, the leader of the bodyguard: 2nd lvl ogre, his warband with around 10-15 5-7th lvl orcs and around a 100 orcs with warrior levels (usually one(npc class)) + 4400 orcs
1952 stationed in a castle with traps and defensive positions.
This against a 13th level party, hmm.
JLXC
08-10-03, 12:55 PM I will respond. Uh yeah... the whole army would fall to a 13th level party unless they were smart enough to run away. I could go on for pages, but let's just simply do this.

Scry King Goober. Teleport in to King Goober with all buff spells and such running, plus Invisible. Kill king goober and his sons and his adept in 4 or 5 rounds. Then kill any of the lower level orcs that even try to see what is going on. This would not even break a sweat. Eventually maybe run low on spells, maybe, even then Teleport/DimDoor/Fly/heck Walk away... and do it again the next day. And the next. And the next. Until the orcs all run away. This is too easy, I would say a 10th level party could pull this off.

My 13th level party, this one was a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil party, Fought Imix the elemental lord of evil and his minions, several of which were higher level than we were. I'm sure a 9th level Orc and his goons would sooooo challenge us. Not.

Let's face it. Evil is WEAK in the realms, unless it is some UberMage (see Shade's return or the thornbacks, etc.).

Super Orc King is lower level and weaker overall than any Leader of the Silver Marches, let alone all of them. 4000 1st level warrior orcs vs. high level characters in every town = death for all the orcs.

This is why in the history of the realms they Always talk about Orc hordes challenging things in the 100's of thousands, not a couple thousand.
Voiceman
08-12-03, 11:22 AM I will respond. Uh yeah... the whole army would fall to a 13th level party unless they were smart enough to run away. I could go on for pages, but let's just simply do this.

Scry King Goober. Teleport in to King Goober with all buff spells and such running, plus Invisible. Kill king goober and his sons and his adept in 4 or 5 rounds. Then kill any of the lower level orcs that even try to see what is going on. This would not even break a sweat. Eventually maybe run low on spells, maybe, even then Teleport/DimDoor/Fly/heck Walk away... and do it again the next day. And the next. And the next. Until the orcs all run away. This is too easy, I would say a 10th level party could pull this off.

Well that depends on luck and the DM. Scrying on dark arrow keep would almost always result in alarming the place. Lorag has a good scrying skill as far as I remember plus all the other in the vecinity.
Then they could prepare their defenses.
But of course if you court them off guard then you have a great advantegde.

This is why in the history of the realms they Always talk about Orc hordes challenging things in the 100's of thousands, not a couple thousand.

I agree that there are many more than 20.000, but hundreds of thoundsans is perhaps a bit exaggrerated. One, because that would require them to have a lot of women and children with them, seconly because it is the winners who write history. the "civilized" historians may very well have exaggerated the number of orcs to make their victory look greater.
And since not only Obould horde, but Also the attacking horde was considerably weakend when Fellbarr was recaptured, I don't think that he ciould gather a 100.000 warrior right now, maybe the future generations will be able to do it.
rmilsop
08-12-03, 05:57 PM I'll throw my 2c in and say that were all the orcs to get togather, they would mass several hundred thousand - but given they are spread over such a wide area, it will take a lot more than some snooty orc who calls himself king to organise that.

Like, say, Gruumsh.
Alratan
08-12-03, 07:49 PM What would 100,000 orcs eat? Remember this is very broken terrain, the orcs are not intensivly farming the lands, and the orcs are bigger than humans so cost more food, so even being very very generous there will not be more than 1 orc per 50 sqaure kilometers, assuming no other sentient species live in the area. This gives a max populatoin of orcs of about 10000.

Shows you what trying to work it out sensibly gives.

Alratan
JLXC
08-12-03, 09:28 PM Realism has little to do with D&D, just so everybody understands. Second, when they put out a product about the Silver Marches, and they did, and they include the Stats on many folks and armies and NPCs in the towns, and there are literally hundreds of 7th level plus folks, not to mention Adventurer's and such, then the pitiful King O and his measly 5000 orcs are laughable, really. 10 thousand would be laughable. 50 thousand would maybe scare some folks but once real magical pressure was put down, the orcs would be lucky to get a village before being routed.

I'm just saying the idea that Orc Hordes may roll into the area and hurt folks might Actually be scary if they had a chance. As is, they are fodder. Scary to peasants maybe, but no serious threat to the Silver Marches. How sad as this very thing is talked about in the Silver Marches book as being scary, and it isn't at all.

Essentially a DM would have to go insane making up stupid reasons why the mighty would not just stomp them if they dared to show themselves. Anything that would distract the higher ups would be more threatening than the orcs and probably make a more interesting game anyways. I just feel Evil is weak in the realms, and I am a HUGE FR Fan and DM. It just is.
Kindjal
08-12-03, 10:21 PM My PCs fear more the dire boars than the orcs who ride them.
But i will change this.

In my Campaign, King Obould gather his sons, other tribes
and goblins tribes (one of the 3 "realms" in Nether Moutain
has already joined him)

He will continue to find and gather many other allies.

As a repetition (correct word ?) he sends 300 orcs meeting 400 goblins,
to raze Jalanthar (hamlet south Nether mountain)

All of that during winter. He plans to take Sundabar at the end of winter,
when snow melt, road become mud, torrents go strong and wild cutting roads, and of course when city stocks are low.

At his orders, Black Lorog has cursed the leader of the Shieldsar.
He will try to supress some other "leader" of the city until end of winter.
nekrolog
08-13-03, 12:01 AM I explained it like this to my PC's once... the reason the orcs and drow don't rule the Marches is that they are Chaotic Evil. Lawful societies are more prone to strategy and teamwork than Chaotic socieities, making them more effective in battle as a society. Think of the Roman armies vs. their opponents... they were able to conquer the known world because of their "Lawful" tendencies.
Amoun
08-13-03, 02:57 AM To add a bit of logic to this entire situation... there are tons of orcs.... and I do mean tons. Alratan... you are thinking 2 dimensional... Orcs are creatures that thrive underground as well. And believe me a lot more than your estimated number can fit underground. Realism has a great deal to do with D&D, if it was all unrealistic and ludicrous... it would not be as fun to accomplish great deeds. Evil is far from weak, the orcs are a bit weak hehe. But Obould (although he is dead in my campaign and replaced by a powerful tanarukk, who is also dead lol) could gather a very large number of Orcs... Let say a 20th lvl fighter stands between a village and 2,000 orcs... Most likely he will get creamed. Who says the orcs fight fair? I would think they would grapple him, tear him limb from limb and think nothing else. Numbers are scary if you use them properly. Never underestimate an orcish horde just cause individually they arent all powerful.
Sculdar
08-13-03, 04:48 AM Well the normal orc hordes that attacked Citadel Adbar were between 10.000-150.000 orcs. And the dwarves in Adbar slaughtered the hordes without too much trouble.
There were almost two hundred thousand involved in the orcish infighting at the former Citadel of many arrows..so i think that it is possibile that the horde that King Obuld could somehow motivate would be around 150.000 orc or even more....but the number that he actually controls is significantly less...
I think the orcish horde is more a force of "nature" than an army.
But the units under direct control of Obuld (and this would be propably more than his 4000 warrios, propably around 15.000-20.000) and Greti (Frost and Hill giants as well as some Ogres in my campaign) can greatly exploit the chaos that the unleashed Horde creates. While the Argent Legion and other forces of the Silver Marches are engaged fighting the orcs they can strike at important targets.
I actually added Tanaruk lead by a Marilith and a Orog Strike Force lead by a powerful Triumvirate as well as the Baphomet Cult Ogres to the List of enemys of the Silvber Marches...
This will put them into some major problems....

:D :D
lordmaxwell
08-13-03, 06:59 AM If the Orcs are to be Orcish there needs to be alot of Orcs. A chaotic evil force won't hold any long sieges, so they need significant numbers at each stronghold they aim to take. (5 to 1, even 10 to 1 trying to take a fortified stronghold held by lawful armies isn't stretching it.)

The problem with the Orcs in FR, and almost all monster races, is that they have WAY too few high level members. A city of 30,000 humans or dwarves have hordes of level 12+ people, the orcs seem to hardly have any. If nothing else the Orcs should be heavy on high level fighters and barbarians, with a good deal of shamen thrown into the mix. (Use sorcererer for class?) A couple of real high level clerics of Gruumsh will add significantly to an Orc Hordes staying power, especially with the 3.5 spells like Cure Light Wounds, Mass.

If any orc army takes a juicy target, they are likely to immediately be attacked by another ORC army as well. (In so far as the Orcs even manage to arrange into armies, rather than just a floodwave of green fur...)

Orcs breed fast, they breed real fast. Underdark provides a fair amount of food, as do their raids on neighbouring farm areas. If you can eat the farmer as well as his crops any raid is bountiful...
stevetip
08-13-03, 04:09 PM I imagine that 150,000 would be about right. A "horde" would be greater than what Obould has as his personal clan. Of course, if Obould's clan is representative of an orc encampment, then there would have to be upwards of 40-50 such camps in the Spine of the World. That seems like quite alot for some reason. Absent an actual census, I would say there are as many orc's in the North as you want there to be.

Also, it isn't the orc's that are scaring people, it the rumors of them joining forces with the Frost Giants and the Drow. THAT, my friends, is a frightening alliance. There are probably at least 1,000 Frost Giants. Probably more like 5,000. A small percentage are rune casters. The frosties are recruiting Hill Giants as well. Add in the innumerable Drow, and you have a force to be reckoned with.

Now, the big question is, who could be behind such an alliance of these evil creatures?
Amoun
08-13-03, 04:15 PM ME I TELL YOU!!! I'm behind it all MUAHHAHAAH... err.... err..... :angel: oops
primemover003
08-13-03, 04:31 PM And the logistics of food and water are not a problem in the Marches. It's completely wild, meaning all the native game is thriving. Sure they can over forage an area, but they supplement with raiding. The Orcs of the Spine of the World number in at least the high tens of thousands. Obould's tribe is like an elite unit among all the "horde." Even a high level party will get overwhelmed by thousands of foot soldiers. Sure your spells will likely kill dozens of orcs as they walk into your fireballs and other area affect spells, but a hundred low level barbaians will eventually wear down your defenses. Just using missle weapons at close range (30') will be enough to overcome even the highest level of fighters. And if my players were foolish enough to stand before the mass of the horde I'd swat them down like flies. everyone rolls a 20 occasionally don't they?
Alratan
08-13-03, 05:24 PM I disagree, a high level party can absolutely laugh in the face of a low level army, all you need to do is cast Control Winds so ranged weapons become unusable, and you can kill the orcs so fast that they can't do significant damage to you, then when you run low on spells you can teleport out. If you don't want to do that, the the spell cloud kill is your best friend.

My post about numbers still stands, as the orcs are not an underdark race, and even if they were, are you are suggesting that there is 15 times the surface area of Faerun in equally fertile land underground?

Alratan
Reefy
08-13-03, 08:11 PM Originally posted by lordmaxwell
The problem with the Orcs in FR, and almost all monster races, is that they have WAY too few high level members. A city of 30,000 humans or dwarves have hordes of level 12+ people, the orcs seem to hardly have any. If nothing else the Orcs should be heavy on high level fighters and barbarians, with a good deal of shamen thrown into the mix. (Use sorcererer for class?) A couple of real high level clerics of Gruumsh will add significantly to an Orc Hordes staying power, especially with the 3.5 spells like Cure Light Wounds, Mass.

But that's the nature of orcs, they are chaotic evil, they fight each other for superiority and they rule by brute force and intimidation. Do you really think somebody like Obould or another chief of a smaller tribe is going to stand around and let any orc who has the potential to unseat him live very long? Yes, there will be some high level characters but not to the extent of the more civilised races.
And I'd use the Adept PrC for shamen, that's what Black Lorog is.
Voiceman
08-14-03, 07:06 AM Originally posted by lordmaxwell
If the Orcs are to be Orcish there needs to be alot of Orcs. A chaotic evil force won't hold any long sieges, so they need significant numbers at each stronghold they aim to take. (5 to 1, even 10 to 1 trying to take a fortified stronghold held by lawful armies isn't stretching it.)

The problem with the Orcs in FR, and almost all monster races, is that they have WAY too few high level members. A city of 30,000 humans or dwarves have hordes of level 12+ people, the orcs seem to hardly have any.

I don't thik it's because the orcs have too few high level people, it's because the silvermarches have too many. Where are the commoners? There is a large concentraiton of heroes in the north, I'd admit. But it seem (putting it on the egde) that there is a 10th �eve� mage in every hamlet.
In some of the old 2ed. products it stated that there had to be around 1,1 million prople to produce a 18th level character.
In 3rd edition level are more abundant so lets say 1:300.000.
do the math.
Voiceman
08-15-03, 06:53 PM I just had a thought, why not look in the monsterous manual, since orcs are usually consider monsters rather characters.
I says that for every hundred orcs there is one 7th level leader, and 3 6th level subcommanders.

IF there was a horde of 150.000 orcs that would make 1500 7th level orcs and 4500 6th level orcs.
plus legendary leader such as Obould and his innercircle.
lordmaxwell
08-16-03, 05:27 AM Yeah, I'd go with Obould being a pretty normal orc clan, maybe a bit on the high side in numbers. There might easily be 50 more such clans, or even 100 such clans, in the Silver Marches. A horde is when they all come storming down. (Well, most of them atleast.)

And yes, the north looks like a bad case of Monty Haul when it comes to high level npcs. But that's part of the charm of FR imho. It's positively littered with heroes and villains. You can't throw a stone into even the smallest farming village without hitting someone with a double digit level in a "real" class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pandionpdg 08-07-03, 04:36 PM	Are there any estimates on the number of orcs(amongst all of the tribes) in the Silver Marches?
Kindjal 08-07-03, 05:52 PM	Enough for your PC and those who come after ... ;) I don't think there is any estimation. Orcs are like rabbits. Look for the number of orcs in Obould's tribe, each of his sons may lead a similar tribe. In the encounter tables in "Silver Marches" you see the probability to meet orcs by region, and the composition of such groups.
Gilchrest 08-07-03, 09:38 PM	Yes, Im sure there are thousands upon thousands ..... It talks of how King Obould has amassed a large amounts in the mountains and they could be unleashed at any time.... :behold:
pandionpdg 08-08-03, 11:00 AM	The reason I ask is that the orc hoarde war is about to begin IMC. Trying to get a decent figure of how many orcs there are. So, Obould's sons also command around the same number of tuskers as Obould himself?
JLXC 08-08-03, 02:19 PM	After having read the silver marches campaign book, I would say that the King could probably get at least 150,000 Orcs or so into an army and kick butt. Of course this means at least 15,000 of those orcs would be 3rd level and higher, which is scary, but hey it's supposed to be scary right?
pandionpdg 08-08-03, 03:01 PM	Wow! I was thinking more along the lines of 20,000 tuskers. If you compare the 150,000 number with the military numbers of the Alliance it seems like all the cities in the Silver Marches should be wiped out.
Astair_Strife'Iriden 08-08-03, 08:23 PM	Didn't the Core RB said he had a Tribe of 2000 counting the woman and childeren? If anything I'd say 20,000 is enough.
JLXC 08-09-03, 02:29 AM	Actually 20,000 orcs would be slaughtered by the alliance. Not only are there dozens of high level mages and clerics to contend with, but Silverymoon has 2 Dragons a Gold and a Silver that would act on it's behalf. In any case in the book it talks about in 1367 DR 150,000 orcs under King Greneire attacked the Orc King Obould at the Citadel of Many Arrows. So this 150,000 orcs fought probably more than 100,000 other orcs for four months... Are you guys are SERIOUSLY suggesting that when a horde comes out to strike the combined might of the Silver Marches... that maybe 20,000 will come out? They fight with more than that orc vs. orc... you think they'd be able to do better when attacking others wouldn't you? Edit: Wow I forgot how weak Evil is in the FR. I just read that Obould has a mighty 4,500 orcs under control right now... oh how scary. My old party of 13th level characters could wipe them away as a joke. So a quarter million orcs fought eachother to death, so that maybe sometimes a few thousand could scare the yokels in the silver marches. The FR never ceases to amaze me. :rolleyes:
Voiceman 08-10-03, 12:41 PM	Originally posted by JLXC Edit: Wow I forgot how weak Evil is in the FR. I just read that Obould has a mighty 4,500 orcs under control right now... oh how scary. My old party of 13th level characters could wipe them away as a joke. I wouldn't bet on it. There is Obould him self (9th lvl), Black Lorag (13th level Adept (NPC class), his sons 3x6-7th lvl, his spymaster/mistriss 7th lvl, the leader of the bodyguard: 2nd lvl ogre, his warband with around 10-15 5-7th lvl orcs and around a 100 orcs with warrior levels (usually one(npc class)) + 4400 orcs 1952 stationed in a castle with traps and defensive positions. This against a 13th level party, hmm.
JLXC 08-10-03, 12:55 PM	I will respond. Uh yeah... the whole army would fall to a 13th level party unless they were smart enough to run away. I could go on for pages, but let's just simply do this. Scry King Goober. Teleport in to King Goober with all buff spells and such running, plus Invisible. Kill king goober and his sons and his adept in 4 or 5 rounds. Then kill any of the lower level orcs that even try to see what is going on. This would not even break a sweat. Eventually maybe run low on spells, maybe, even then Teleport/DimDoor/Fly/heck Walk away... and do it again the next day. And the next. And the next. Until the orcs all run away. This is too easy, I would say a 10th level party could pull this off. My 13th level party, this one was a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil party, Fought Imix the elemental lord of evil and his minions, several of which were higher level than we were. I'm sure a 9th level Orc and his goons would sooooo challenge us. Not. Let's face it. Evil is WEAK in the realms, unless it is some UberMage (see Shade's return or the thornbacks, etc.). Super Orc King is lower level and weaker overall than any Leader of the Silver Marches, let alone all of them. 4000 1st level warrior orcs vs. high level characters in every town = death for all the orcs. This is why in the history of the realms they Always talk about Orc hordes challenging things in the 100's of thousands, not a couple thousand.
Voiceman 08-12-03, 11:22 AM	I will respond. Uh yeah... the whole army would fall to a 13th level party unless they were smart enough to run away. I could go on for pages, but let's just simply do this. Scry King Goober. Teleport in to King Goober with all buff spells and such running, plus Invisible. Kill king goober and his sons and his adept in 4 or 5 rounds. Then kill any of the lower level orcs that even try to see what is going on. This would not even break a sweat. Eventually maybe run low on spells, maybe, even then Teleport/DimDoor/Fly/heck Walk away... and do it again the next day. And the next. And the next. Until the orcs all run away. This is too easy, I would say a 10th level party could pull this off. Well that depends on luck and the DM. Scrying on dark arrow keep would almost always result in alarming the place. Lorag has a good scrying skill as far as I remember plus all the other in the vecinity. Then they could prepare their defenses. But of course if you court them off guard then you have a great advantegde. This is why in the history of the realms they Always talk about Orc hordes challenging things in the 100's of thousands, not a couple thousand. I agree that there are many more than 20.000, but hundreds of thoundsans is perhaps a bit exaggrerated. One, because that would require them to have a lot of women and children with them, seconly because it is the winners who write history. the "civilized" historians may very well have exaggerated the number of orcs to make their victory look greater. And since not only Obould horde, but Also the attacking horde was considerably weakend when Fellbarr was recaptured, I don't think that he ciould gather a 100.000 warrior right now, maybe the future generations will be able to do it.
rmilsop 08-12-03, 05:57 PM	I'll throw my 2c in and say that were all the orcs to get togather, they would mass several hundred thousand - but given they are spread over such a wide area, it will take a lot more than some snooty orc who calls himself king to organise that. Like, say, Gruumsh.
Alratan 08-12-03, 07:49 PM	What would 100,000 orcs eat? Remember this is very broken terrain, the orcs are not intensivly farming the lands, and the orcs are bigger than humans so cost more food, so even being very very generous there will not be more than 1 orc per 50 sqaure kilometers, assuming no other sentient species live in the area. This gives a max populatoin of orcs of about 10000. Shows you what trying to work it out sensibly gives. Alratan
JLXC 08-12-03, 09:28 PM	Realism has little to do with D&D, just so everybody understands. Second, when they put out a product about the Silver Marches, and they did, and they include the Stats on many folks and armies and NPCs in the towns, and there are literally hundreds of 7th level plus folks, not to mention Adventurer's and such, then the pitiful King O and his measly 5000 orcs are laughable, really. 10 thousand would be laughable. 50 thousand would maybe scare some folks but once real magical pressure was put down, the orcs would be lucky to get a village before being routed. I'm just saying the idea that Orc Hordes may roll into the area and hurt folks might Actually be scary if they had a chance. As is, they are fodder. Scary to peasants maybe, but no serious threat to the Silver Marches. How sad as this very thing is talked about in the Silver Marches book as being scary, and it isn't at all. Essentially a DM would have to go insane making up stupid reasons why the mighty would not just stomp them if they dared to show themselves. Anything that would distract the higher ups would be more threatening than the orcs and probably make a more interesting game anyways. I just feel Evil is weak in the realms, and I am a HUGE FR Fan and DM. It just is.
Kindjal 08-12-03, 10:21 PM	My PCs fear more the dire boars than the orcs who ride them. But i will change this. In my Campaign, King Obould gather his sons, other tribes and goblins tribes (one of the 3 "realms" in Nether Moutain has already joined him) He will continue to find and gather many other allies. As a repetition (correct word ?) he sends 300 orcs meeting 400 goblins, to raze Jalanthar (hamlet south Nether mountain) All of that during winter. He plans to take Sundabar at the end of winter, when snow melt, road become mud, torrents go strong and wild cutting roads, and of course when city stocks are low. At his orders, Black Lorog has cursed the leader of the Shieldsar. He will try to supress some other "leader" of the city until end of winter.
nekrolog 08-13-03, 12:01 AM	I explained it like this to my PC's once... the reason the orcs and drow don't rule the Marches is that they are Chaotic Evil. Lawful societies are more prone to strategy and teamwork than Chaotic socieities, making them more effective in battle as a society. Think of the Roman armies vs. their opponents... they were able to conquer the known world because of their "Lawful" tendencies.
Amoun 08-13-03, 02:57 AM	To add a bit of logic to this entire situation... there are tons of orcs.... and I do mean tons. Alratan... you are thinking 2 dimensional... Orcs are creatures that thrive underground as well. And believe me a lot more than your estimated number can fit underground. Realism has a great deal to do with D&D, if it was all unrealistic and ludicrous... it would not be as fun to accomplish great deeds. Evil is far from weak, the orcs are a bit weak hehe. But Obould (although he is dead in my campaign and replaced by a powerful tanarukk, who is also dead lol) could gather a very large number of Orcs... Let say a 20th lvl fighter stands between a village and 2,000 orcs... Most likely he will get creamed. Who says the orcs fight fair? I would think they would grapple him, tear him limb from limb and think nothing else. Numbers are scary if you use them properly. Never underestimate an orcish horde just cause individually they arent all powerful.
Sculdar 08-13-03, 04:48 AM	Well the normal orc hordes that attacked Citadel Adbar were between 10.000-150.000 orcs. And the dwarves in Adbar slaughtered the hordes without too much trouble. There were almost two hundred thousand involved in the orcish infighting at the former Citadel of many arrows..so i think that it is possibile that the horde that King Obuld could somehow motivate would be around 150.000 orc or even more....but the number that he actually controls is significantly less... I think the orcish horde is more a force of "nature" than an army. But the units under direct control of Obuld (and this would be propably more than his 4000 warrios, propably around 15.000-20.000) and Greti (Frost and Hill giants as well as some Ogres in my campaign) can greatly exploit the chaos that the unleashed Horde creates. While the Argent Legion and other forces of the Silver Marches are engaged fighting the orcs they can strike at important targets. I actually added Tanaruk lead by a Marilith and a Orog Strike Force lead by a powerful Triumvirate as well as the Baphomet Cult Ogres to the List of enemys of the Silvber Marches... This will put them into some major problems.... :D :D
lordmaxwell 08-13-03, 06:59 AM	If the Orcs are to be Orcish there needs to be alot of Orcs. A chaotic evil force won't hold any long sieges, so they need significant numbers at each stronghold they aim to take. (5 to 1, even 10 to 1 trying to take a fortified stronghold held by lawful armies isn't stretching it.) The problem with the Orcs in FR, and almost all monster races, is that they have WAY too few high level members. A city of 30,000 humans or dwarves have hordes of level 12+ people, the orcs seem to hardly have any. If nothing else the Orcs should be heavy on high level fighters and barbarians, with a good deal of shamen thrown into the mix. (Use sorcererer for class?) A couple of real high level clerics of Gruumsh will add significantly to an Orc Hordes staying power, especially with the 3.5 spells like Cure Light Wounds, Mass. If any orc army takes a juicy target, they are likely to immediately be attacked by another ORC army as well. (In so far as the Orcs even manage to arrange into armies, rather than just a floodwave of green fur...) Orcs breed fast, they breed real fast. Underdark provides a fair amount of food, as do their raids on neighbouring farm areas. If you can eat the farmer as well as his crops any raid is bountiful...
stevetip 08-13-03, 04:09 PM	I imagine that 150,000 would be about right. A "horde" would be greater than what Obould has as his personal clan. Of course, if Obould's clan is representative of an orc encampment, then there would have to be upwards of 40-50 such camps in the Spine of the World. That seems like quite alot for some reason. Absent an actual census, I would say there are as many orc's in the North as you want there to be. Also, it isn't the orc's that are scaring people, it the rumors of them joining forces with the Frost Giants and the Drow. THAT, my friends, is a frightening alliance. There are probably at least 1,000 Frost Giants. Probably more like 5,000. A small percentage are rune casters. The frosties are recruiting Hill Giants as well. Add in the innumerable Drow, and you have a force to be reckoned with. Now, the big question is, who could be behind such an alliance of these evil creatures?
Amoun 08-13-03, 04:15 PM	ME I TELL YOU!!! I'm behind it all MUAHHAHAAH... err.... err..... :angel: oops
primemover003 08-13-03, 04:31 PM	And the logistics of food and water are not a problem in the Marches. It's completely wild, meaning all the native game is thriving. Sure they can over forage an area, but they supplement with raiding. The Orcs of the Spine of the World number in at least the high tens of thousands. Obould's tribe is like an elite unit among all the "horde." Even a high level party will get overwhelmed by thousands of foot soldiers. Sure your spells will likely kill dozens of orcs as they walk into your fireballs and other area affect spells, but a hundred low level barbaians will eventually wear down your defenses. Just using missle weapons at close range (30') will be enough to overcome even the highest level of fighters. And if my players were foolish enough to stand before the mass of the horde I'd swat them down like flies. everyone rolls a 20 occasionally don't they?
Alratan 08-13-03, 05:24 PM	I disagree, a high level party can absolutely laugh in the face of a low level army, all you need to do is cast Control Winds so ranged weapons become unusable, and you can kill the orcs so fast that they can't do significant damage to you, then when you run low on spells you can teleport out. If you don't want to do that, the the spell cloud kill is your best friend. My post about numbers still stands, as the orcs are not an underdark race, and even if they were, are you are suggesting that there is 15 times the surface area of Faerun in equally fertile land underground? Alratan
Reefy 08-13-03, 08:11 PM	Originally posted by lordmaxwell The problem with the Orcs in FR, and almost all monster races, is that they have WAY too few high level members. A city of 30,000 humans or dwarves have hordes of level 12+ people, the orcs seem to hardly have any. If nothing else the Orcs should be heavy on high level fighters and barbarians, with a good deal of shamen thrown into the mix. (Use sorcererer for class?) A couple of real high level clerics of Gruumsh will add significantly to an Orc Hordes staying power, especially with the 3.5 spells like Cure Light Wounds, Mass. But that's the nature of orcs, they are chaotic evil, they fight each other for superiority and they rule by brute force and intimidation. Do you really think somebody like Obould or another chief of a smaller tribe is going to stand around and let any orc who has the potential to unseat him live very long? Yes, there will be some high level characters but not to the extent of the more civilised races. And I'd use the Adept PrC for shamen, that's what Black Lorog is.
Voiceman 08-14-03, 07:06 AM	Originally posted by lordmaxwell If the Orcs are to be Orcish there needs to be alot of Orcs. A chaotic evil force won't hold any long sieges, so they need significant numbers at each stronghold they aim to take. (5 to 1, even 10 to 1 trying to take a fortified stronghold held by lawful armies isn't stretching it.) The problem with the Orcs in FR, and almost all monster races, is that they have WAY too few high level members. A city of 30,000 humans or dwarves have hordes of level 12+ people, the orcs seem to hardly have any. I don't thik it's because the orcs have too few high level people, it's because the silvermarches have too many. Where are the commoners? There is a large concentraiton of heroes in the north, I'd admit. But it seem (putting it on the egde) that there is a 10th �eve� mage in every hamlet. In some of the old 2ed. products it stated that there had to be around 1,1 million prople to produce a 18th level character. In 3rd edition level are more abundant so lets say 1:300.000. do the math.
Voiceman 08-15-03, 06:53 PM	I just had a thought, why not look in the monsterous manual, since orcs are usually consider monsters rather characters. I says that for every hundred orcs there is one 7th level leader, and 3 6th level subcommanders. IF there was a horde of 150.000 orcs that would make 1500 7th level orcs and 4500 6th level orcs. plus legendary leader such as Obould and his innercircle.
lordmaxwell 08-16-03, 05:27 AM	Yeah, I'd go with Obould being a pretty normal orc clan, maybe a bit on the high side in numbers. There might easily be 50 more such clans, or even 100 such clans, in the Silver Marches. A horde is when they all come storming down. (Well, most of them atleast.) And yes, the north looks like a bad case of Monty Haul when it comes to high level npcs. But that's part of the charm of FR imho. It's positively littered with heroes and villains. You can't throw a stone into even the smallest farming village without hitting someone with a double digit level in a "real" class.