Sleeping Gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sleeping Gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JosephL
12-11-07, 11:35 AM Hi all,
Rich Baker mentioned an old Ed Greenwood idea of sleeping gods, and how it would be used to revamp the pantheons. All I can rember along these lines was what was in the novel "The Simbul's Gift", any one else out there have any tidbits to add to the sleeping gods idea?
Fingoldfin
12-12-07, 12:16 AM Hi all,
Rich Baker mentioned an old Ed Greenwood idea of sleeping gods, and how it would be used to revamp the pantheons. All I can rember along these lines was what was in the novel "The Simbul's Gift", any one else out there have any tidbits to add to the sleeping gods idea?

No one knows anything about the sleeping gods hint that he dropped. I think it may have something to do with topics being discussed in the 13 princes thread under people and places. I think it may have something to do with those primordial gods they are talking about. I didn't read the Simbul's Gift book so I don't really know much about them. I wish I could help more.:)
johnkretzer
12-12-07, 02:57 AM He said something about the primordial gods before Shar and Selune....

My feelings are don't WotC know enough to let sleeping gods sleep? :D
Stigger
12-12-07, 03:39 AM :rimshot:
johnkretzer
12-12-07, 10:48 AM Thank you. Thank you. :bravo: I am here all night. Don't forget to tip.
The Ubbergeek
12-12-07, 02:05 PM Auppenser is sleeping, as Mershaulk (?), Set (?), the Kuo-toa goddess, the god of glaciers, etc...

It's what i remember.
Kenzuki
12-12-07, 02:32 PM Isn't Auppenser dying?
18DELTA
12-12-07, 03:08 PM :dancin: :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :dancin:
The Ubbergeek
12-12-07, 04:32 PM Isn't Auppenser dying?

Kept alive by Mystra - she see herself as the protector of Magic, in a large sense, after all...
Scathlock
12-12-07, 04:54 PM I wonder what happens to psionics and its god during the spellplague when Mystra dies...
Kenzuki
12-12-07, 07:10 PM I wonder what happens to psionics and its god during the spellplague when Mystra dies...

Maybe people will rely on psionics more?
Stigger
12-13-07, 01:06 AM Goddess of psioncs will probably die when Mystra dies, considering that Mystra keeps her going from what little I know of the situation.
johnkretzer
12-13-07, 03:25 AM Goddess of psioncs will probably die when Mystra dies, considering that Mystra keeps her going from what little I know of the situation.

Or probably just to tarnish Mystra's name it will be revealed that Mystra has been keeping Auppenser comatose for foul and evil and selfish reasons...
Stigger
12-13-07, 03:25 AM You know, that wouldn't really surprise me much...
Jedi_Master_Trobon
12-13-07, 04:27 AM Maybe people will rely on psionics more?

And the sun will turn red and the world will devolve into savage barbery... Go 4th edition Dark Sun.

Seriously though, I can't see Psionics being used more since they wont be introduced until 2009.
sfdragon
12-13-07, 04:31 AM what did the waterdeep book say about the moonstars, and alaundo's prophersy on them

about saving them from the darkness who waits in shadows....
would this be the princes of shades or 3 sleeper gods?
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 12:56 AM -I'm fairly convinced that the "Sleeping deities" has a lot to do with information found in the novel Stardeep, and information found within Lord of Madness.
Fingoldfin
12-14-07, 03:15 AM -I'm fairly convinced that the "Sleeping deities" has a lot to do with information found in the novel Stardeep, and information found within Lord of Madness.

I agree with you on lords of madness. It seemed almost made for the Realms despite the fact that it is core. When I first opened I thought that much of it would become canon in the Realms. I use it for my Realms. I don't have the novel stardeep though so I can't comment on it.
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 11:50 AM I agree with you on lords of madness. It seemed almost made for the Realms despite the fact that it is core. When I first opened I thought that much of it would become canon in the Realms. I use it for my Realms. I don't have the novel stardeep though so I can't comment on it.

-Really? I think it's so "anti-Realms" that I can't stand the entire "Stardeep plotline" (Sleeping gods, merging of worlds, Aboleth, etc.). To me, it isn't the Realms, and it feels as they're just converting someone else's campaign ideas into the Realms. I mean, they are all interesting ideas, but barring retcons, they don't have any grounding in the Realms.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-14-07, 12:16 PM I agree, while the plot of Stardeep is enjoyable, the concepts that are being introduced to the Realms are too sci-fi for my taste.
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 12:28 PM I agree, while the plot of Stardeep is enjoyable, the concepts that are being introduced to the Realms are too sci-fi for my taste.

-I just explained this in another thread, but I'll repeat myself for good measure. It's not that the "Elder Evils" idea isn't interesting, but the Realms doesn't have mechanisms built into it to make all of this seem like anything but a massive retcon.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-14-07, 12:30 PM -I just explained this in another thread, but I'll repeat myself for good measure. It's not that the "Elder Evils" idea isn't interesting, but the Realms doesn't have mechanisms built into it to make all of this seem like anything but a massive retcon.

I agree. Just because a bunch of ideas are neat in and of themselves doesn't mean they fit well into a particular setting (which is something I've said about some other 4E concepts, in fact).
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 12:32 PM I agree. Just because a bunch of ideas are neat in and of themselves doesn't mean they fit well into a particular setting (which is something I've said about some other 4E concepts, in fact).

-Case in point: The Shadow Weave.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-14-07, 12:43 PM -Case in point: The Shadow Weave.

Good point (although, I've gone with Ed's explanation and made it work for my Realms).:)
The Ubbergeek
12-14-07, 01:45 PM I agree. Just because a bunch of ideas are neat in and of themselves doesn't mean they fit well into a particular setting (which is something I've said about some other 4E concepts, in fact).

I disagree, it sounded quite fantasy - like the original Conan feels, with the implied link to the Chtulu mythos.

Fantasy is not just faux tolkien.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-14-07, 01:49 PM Fantasy is not just faux tolkien.

Great, but I never asserted that it was.
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 02:15 PM I disagree, it sounded quite fantasy - like the original Conan feels, with the implied link to the Chtulu mythos.

Fantasy is not just faux tolkien.

-That's all fine and true, but as I said, the Realms has no mechanism to integrate all of this without making it feel like a massive and hollow retcon.
Alkasyn
12-14-07, 05:37 PM -That's all fine and true, but as I said, the Realms has no mechanism to integrate all of this without making it feel like a massive and hollow retcon.

I concur, the Realms are in my opinion, fantasy, and stuff from Cthulhu doesn't fit.
RadicalTaoist
12-14-07, 05:47 PM I thought over-the-top retcons were part of the FR experience. ToT anyone?
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 05:47 PM I concur, the Realms are in my opinion, fantasy, and stuff from Cthulhu doesn't fit.

-It's not that it couldn't fit, but there's no precident, for a lack of better words, of it fitting.

-Like the awkward and (in my opinion) stupid idea of some kind of merging of 'Abeir' and 'Toril', from a single entity, to two seperate entities, back to one single entity again, there is no precident for it. Nothing, asides from a vague reference by THO that I can remember a few years ago, even said that 'Toril' wasn't 'Abeir-Toril'. To scholars, the planet was, and continues to be 'Abeir-Toril'. But, I digress. The point is, if something was written anywhere that 'Abeir' was some other plane, or whatever you want to call it, I'd have no problem with this 'merging'. Likewise, if the Realms had hints of a Cthulu-like origin, with Aboleth and whatever ruling the world, I'd have no problem with a sudden return either. But, there isn't, so...
johnkretzer
12-14-07, 05:55 PM I disagree, it sounded quite fantasy - like the original Conan feels, with the implied link to the Chtulu mythos.

Fantasy is not just faux tolkien.

I don't consider Chtulu to be fantasy...it is much more horror. Also it is in my opinion very bad horror.(I.E. I don't like that whole mythos).

As for it feeling like Conan...meh. I like Eddings stuff better and the bases of fantasy he used.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-14-07, 06:28 PM -Like the awkward and (in my opinion) stupid idea of some kind of merging of 'Abeir' and 'Toril', from a single entity, to two seperate entities, back to one single entity again, there is no precident for it. Nothing, asides from a vague reference by THO that I can remember a few years ago, even said that 'Toril' wasn't 'Abeir-Toril'.

And that might have just been a hint about the upcoming changes. I think I've mentioned before that I agree with you--I've always thought of "Abeir-Toril" as nothing more than the compound name of the planet, shortened for everyday use.
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 06:33 PM And that might have just been a hint about the upcoming changes.

-Well, that's what I meant. I was talking about the past, present and future, all at once! Should've made that more clear. :)

I think I've mentioned before that I agree with you.

-I'm an agreeable person. A lot of people seem to agree with me. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-14-07, 06:44 PM -I'm an agreeable person. A lot of people seem to agree with me. :)

*snort!* :rofl:
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 07:18 PM -It's the truth. And, I don't have to coerce them in any way, which is a plus.
DreamStalker
12-15-07, 02:31 AM A fantasy use of Cthulu mythos is enjoyable for me. For others I can see where it is not. As for FR, agreed that it doesn't fit very well. On the other hand, what they did in Lords of Madness giving it a way to fit into FR was very nice. Developing the setting by putting out more options that are not canon are nice little modules. Not needed in an FR book but a nice thing to put into a Core Book that can be adapted to other settings. Just my opinions;)

Have not read Stardeep yet either.

Personally, for FR rather than a continuous move forward I would rather see a focus on historical and current timeline development. As far as Roleplaying games are concerned I prefer a baseline timeperiod and all sourcebooks to be based on that, at least within an edition. Metaplot and moving the world forward should be a separate class of sourcebook in my opinion. As for edition timeline changes I am actually okay with that. However i also believe the previous timelines presented in previous editions should be supported in the updated rules. Hence some issues I have with the 4E FR (may be a false alarm when the book comes out, who knows for sure but the developers?), Dragonlance the Fifth Age and such like that.

Some games with continuous storyline advancement at least present the option of past play despite current events. Vampire the Masquerade in going from 2ed to Revised got rid of most all Ravnos and a few bloodlines, but largely mentioned and gave rules for most of them (though not the Ahrimanes!). Legend of the Five Rings definitely has an addiction with advancing storylines every book, but they almost always present the past mechanics as well.
DreamStalker
12-15-07, 02:34 AM Good point (although, I've gone with Ed's explanation and made it work for my Realms).:)

On the Shadow Weave, what was Ed's explanation? I always preferred the Magic of Faerun version where it was an ages old conspiracy by Shar just now fully blooming. Disliked the Return of the Archwizards version.
Lord Karsus
12-15-07, 02:52 AM On the Shadow Weave, what was Ed's explanation? I always preferred the Magic of Faerun version where it was an ages old conspiracy by Shar just now fully blooming. Disliked the Return of the Archwizards version.

-Heh, there are so many explanations, just go ahead and pick and choose the ones you like. :)
DreamStalker
12-15-07, 03:06 AM Already did. Just curious which one Ed chose! Hehe. I already diverge with Ed on a lot of stuff so one more won't matter.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-15-07, 06:29 PM On the Shadow Weave, what was Ed's explanation? I always preferred the Magic of Faerun version where it was an ages old conspiracy by Shar just now fully blooming. Disliked the Return of the Archwizards version.

Since you asked--basically, Ed said that the Shadow Weave is really a part of the Weave itself...an "echo" of the regular Weave and also under Mystra's jurisdiction. The Shadow Weave was not created by Shar and she has no control over it, but she can control access to it.

But like LK said, that's one of many explanations that are floating around.:)
Lord Karsus
12-15-07, 10:06 PM Since you asked--basically, Ed said that the Shadow Weave is really a part of the Weave itself...an "echo" of the regular Weave and also under Mystra's jurisdiction. The Shadow Weave was not created by Shar and she has no control over it, but she can control access to it.

But like LK said, that's one of many explanations that are floating around.:)

-Eh, that goes against canon, but on this subject, there are 13 different "true" stories anyway. Personally, I don't like this explanation at all- it's the part about the Shadow Weave really being part of the Weave, under Mystra's jurisdiction. That further bolsters the idea of "Super Mystra" that I can't stand.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-15-07, 10:27 PM -Eh, that goes against canon, but on this subject, there are 13 different "true" stories anyway. Personally, I don't like this explanation at all- it's the part about the Shadow Weave really being part of the Weave, under Mystra's jurisdiction. That further bolsters the idea of "Super Mystra" that I can't stand.

Well, the great thing about it is there are so many different theories people can just pick the one they like.:)
MarkusTay63
12-15-07, 10:55 PM It's actually VERY Eberronesque, using Aboleths instead of Daelkyr.

I like that feel in Eberron, just like I like Cthulhu in Lovecraftian Worlds, or Gothic Horror in Ravenloft, or even psionics in Dark Sun.

But all of those worlds are NOT FR, and their contents fit their flavor. Throwing all this 'mish-mosh' into FR at this point just seems to be going back to the 'bad' times at the end of 2e, when designers were just fitting every little thing into the Realms, weather it belonged or not (like Spelljammer Starports in major cities).

This is obviously a deus ex machina to make FR the new 'core'. Eberron didn't 'fit' with core very well, and Greyhawk seems to have finally tanked. That leaves FR as the core 'flagship', and unfortunately it appears that EVERY idea will find a place somewhere in the Realms, BECAUSE it is in the core rules. Being the 'default setting' didn't help GH in the end, I really doubt it will do anything positive for FR.

Just my :twocents:
18DELTA
12-16-07, 10:50 PM -It's the truth. And, I don't have to coerce them in any way, which is a plus.

Its because we stand in AWE of your Greatness!;)
Lord Karsus
12-16-07, 11:01 PM Its because we stand in AWE of your Greatness!;)

-Yeah, most people do. :cool:
Fingoldfin
12-17-07, 01:31 AM -Really? I think it's so "anti-Realms" that I can't stand the entire "Stardeep plotline" (Sleeping gods, merging of worlds, Aboleth, etc.). To me, it isn't the Realms, and it feels as they're just converting someone else's campaign ideas into the Realms. I mean, they are all interesting ideas, but barring retcons, they don't have any grounding in the Realms.

I have no idea what the Stardeep plot line is so I can't really comment. As for the stuff in Lords of Madness most of the creatures covered in it are rare in the Realms or confined to the Underdark. I didn't see anything that needed to be retconned. I'm not saying that there should be some kind of Aberration empire on the surface. Since Baker was a designer on the book I figured that much of it would become canon anyway.

I'm interested to know what in LoM you think would be retcon? Or were you talking about something in Stardeep? Also feel free to spoil me because I don't plan to read Stardeep. :)
Lord Karsus
12-17-07, 01:38 AM -A very brief summary of the plotline of Stardeep:

Stardeep is an ancient citadel that (somehow)predates the Sildeyuir. The Traitor (who can possibly be Mourel Duskwalker, from the Twilight Tomb module) somehow gained the knowledge of how to call the Aboleth and their "Elder deities", who once ruled Toril, but were cast away by long-forgotten deities and the Cerulean Sign. He was cast away, and sealed in Stardeep, as a ritual or his death could cause the Aboleth-led city of X-something to spill into Faer�n. Every so often, the Traitor tries to escape, and it was one escape attempt that caused Kiril's blade, Angul, to be forged from the soul of her lover, Nangulis. A Keeper of the Cerulean Sign in Stardeep, who also happened to be a Diviner, saw the need to forge a blade from the remnant of Nangulis' essence, Nis, which he would need to counter the Aboleth threat he saw in his dreams. Eventually, he lures Kiril to Stardeep, as she used to be a Keeper, and reunited Angul-Nis, going crazy in the process. Telarian, the Keeper who lured Kiril back to Stardeep attempts to free the Traitor, but is stopped in the process, and winds up being imprisoned with the Traitor, who was indeed using his powers to control Telarian.
The Ubbergeek
12-19-07, 11:01 PM FR was, and never will be Core.

For once, it's slightly more detached from base D&D than the real core of the past - greyhawk.

It will remains a setting. They added things, but that don't make it 'core' in any real way.

And again, you see it - it's the top-selling, main setting, but still, a setting. Now the game will come with a sort of mini setting of it own but not FR.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-20-07, 07:24 PM It will remains a setting. They added things, but that don't make it 'core' in any real way.

And again, you see it - it's the top-selling, main setting, but still, a setting. Now the game will come with a sort of mini setting of it own but not FR.

...:confused:
The Ubbergeek
12-20-07, 08:22 PM ...:confused:

Someone stated here that FR would become the Core world, and so they would adapt it to fit coreness, yadda yadda.

I stated that while there was tempering, it was never question to make it the core world in any way.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-20-07, 08:46 PM Someone stated here that FR would become the Core world, and so they would adapt it to fit coreness, yadda yadda.

I stated that while there was tempering, it was never question to make it the core world in any way.

OK, NOW I understand you.:)
Lord Karsus
12-20-07, 09:19 PM Someone stated here that FR would become the Core world, and so they would adapt it to fit coreness, yadda yadda.

-Though it probably isn't going to be the Core, Generic, Default world, there is much adapting going on, to reconcile the Realms with Generic D&D. While it would be nice that each individual setting has it's own individual rules, that's not the way it works. The Realms, just like Eberron and any other settings that get updated in 4e (Oriental Adventures, Dragonlance, maybe?) have to be tweaked to be able to adapt to the new Core Rules- hence so many changes with Elves, or Dragonborn, or whatever it is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JosephL 12-11-07, 11:35 AM	Hi all, Rich Baker mentioned an old Ed Greenwood idea of sleeping gods, and how it would be used to revamp the pantheons. All I can rember along these lines was what was in the novel "The Simbul's Gift", any one else out there have any tidbits to add to the sleeping gods idea?
Fingoldfin 12-12-07, 12:16 AM	Hi all, Rich Baker mentioned an old Ed Greenwood idea of sleeping gods, and how it would be used to revamp the pantheons. All I can rember along these lines was what was in the novel "The Simbul's Gift", any one else out there have any tidbits to add to the sleeping gods idea? No one knows anything about the sleeping gods hint that he dropped. I think it may have something to do with topics being discussed in the 13 princes thread under people and places. I think it may have something to do with those primordial gods they are talking about. I didn't read the Simbul's Gift book so I don't really know much about them. I wish I could help more.:)
johnkretzer 12-12-07, 02:57 AM	He said something about the primordial gods before Shar and Selune.... My feelings are don't WotC know enough to let sleeping gods sleep? :D
Stigger 12-12-07, 03:39 AM	:rimshot:
johnkretzer 12-12-07, 10:48 AM	Thank you. Thank you. :bravo: I am here all night. Don't forget to tip.
The Ubbergeek 12-12-07, 02:05 PM	Auppenser is sleeping, as Mershaulk (?), Set (?), the Kuo-toa goddess, the god of glaciers, etc... It's what i remember.
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 02:32 PM	Isn't Auppenser dying?
18DELTA 12-12-07, 03:08 PM	:dancin: :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :dancin:
The Ubbergeek 12-12-07, 04:32 PM	Isn't Auppenser dying? Kept alive by Mystra - she see herself as the protector of Magic, in a large sense, after all...
Scathlock 12-12-07, 04:54 PM	I wonder what happens to psionics and its god during the spellplague when Mystra dies...
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 07:10 PM	I wonder what happens to psionics and its god during the spellplague when Mystra dies... Maybe people will rely on psionics more?
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:06 AM	Goddess of psioncs will probably die when Mystra dies, considering that Mystra keeps her going from what little I know of the situation.
johnkretzer 12-13-07, 03:25 AM	Goddess of psioncs will probably die when Mystra dies, considering that Mystra keeps her going from what little I know of the situation. Or probably just to tarnish Mystra's name it will be revealed that Mystra has been keeping Auppenser comatose for foul and evil and selfish reasons...
Stigger 12-13-07, 03:25 AM	You know, that wouldn't really surprise me much...
Jedi_Master_Trobon 12-13-07, 04:27 AM	Maybe people will rely on psionics more? And the sun will turn red and the world will devolve into savage barbery... Go 4th edition Dark Sun. Seriously though, I can't see Psionics being used more since they wont be introduced until 2009.
sfdragon 12-13-07, 04:31 AM	what did the waterdeep book say about the moonstars, and alaundo's prophersy on them about saving them from the darkness who waits in shadows.... would this be the princes of shades or 3 sleeper gods?
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:56 AM	-I'm fairly convinced that the "Sleeping deities" has a lot to do with information found in the novel Stardeep, and information found within Lord of Madness.
Fingoldfin 12-14-07, 03:15 AM	-I'm fairly convinced that the "Sleeping deities" has a lot to do with information found in the novel Stardeep, and information found within Lord of Madness. I agree with you on lords of madness. It seemed almost made for the Realms despite the fact that it is core. When I first opened I thought that much of it would become canon in the Realms. I use it for my Realms. I don't have the novel stardeep though so I can't comment on it.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 11:50 AM	I agree with you on lords of madness. It seemed almost made for the Realms despite the fact that it is core. When I first opened I thought that much of it would become canon in the Realms. I use it for my Realms. I don't have the novel stardeep though so I can't comment on it. -Really? I think it's so "anti-Realms" that I can't stand the entire "Stardeep plotline" (Sleeping gods, merging of worlds, Aboleth, etc.). To me, it isn't the Realms, and it feels as they're just converting someone else's campaign ideas into the Realms. I mean, they are all interesting ideas, but barring retcons, they don't have any grounding in the Realms.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 12:16 PM	I agree, while the plot of Stardeep is enjoyable, the concepts that are being introduced to the Realms are too sci-fi for my taste.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:28 PM	I agree, while the plot of Stardeep is enjoyable, the concepts that are being introduced to the Realms are too sci-fi for my taste. -I just explained this in another thread, but I'll repeat myself for good measure. It's not that the "Elder Evils" idea isn't interesting, but the Realms doesn't have mechanisms built into it to make all of this seem like anything but a massive retcon.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 12:30 PM	-I just explained this in another thread, but I'll repeat myself for good measure. It's not that the "Elder Evils" idea isn't interesting, but the Realms doesn't have mechanisms built into it to make all of this seem like anything but a massive retcon. I agree. Just because a bunch of ideas are neat in and of themselves doesn't mean they fit well into a particular setting (which is something I've said about some other 4E concepts, in fact).
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:32 PM	I agree. Just because a bunch of ideas are neat in and of themselves doesn't mean they fit well into a particular setting (which is something I've said about some other 4E concepts, in fact). -Case in point: The Shadow Weave.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 12:43 PM	-Case in point: The Shadow Weave. Good point (although, I've gone with Ed's explanation and made it work for my Realms).:)
The Ubbergeek 12-14-07, 01:45 PM	I agree. Just because a bunch of ideas are neat in and of themselves doesn't mean they fit well into a particular setting (which is something I've said about some other 4E concepts, in fact). I disagree, it sounded quite fantasy - like the original Conan feels, with the implied link to the Chtulu mythos. Fantasy is not just faux tolkien.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 01:49 PM	Fantasy is not just faux tolkien. Great, but I never asserted that it was.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 02:15 PM	I disagree, it sounded quite fantasy - like the original Conan feels, with the implied link to the Chtulu mythos. Fantasy is not just faux tolkien. -That's all fine and true, but as I said, the Realms has no mechanism to integrate all of this without making it feel like a massive and hollow retcon.
Alkasyn 12-14-07, 05:37 PM	-That's all fine and true, but as I said, the Realms has no mechanism to integrate all of this without making it feel like a massive and hollow retcon. I concur, the Realms are in my opinion, fantasy, and stuff from Cthulhu doesn't fit.
RadicalTaoist 12-14-07, 05:47 PM	I thought over-the-top retcons were part of the FR experience. ToT anyone?
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 05:47 PM	I concur, the Realms are in my opinion, fantasy, and stuff from Cthulhu doesn't fit. -It's not that it couldn't fit, but there's no precident, for a lack of better words, of it fitting. -Like the awkward and (in my opinion) stupid idea of some kind of merging of 'Abeir' and 'Toril', from a single entity, to two seperate entities, back to one single entity again, there is no precident for it. Nothing, asides from a vague reference by THO that I can remember a few years ago, even said that 'Toril' wasn't 'Abeir-Toril'. To scholars, the planet was, and continues to be 'Abeir-Toril'. But, I digress. The point is, if something was written anywhere that 'Abeir' was some other plane, or whatever you want to call it, I'd have no problem with this 'merging'. Likewise, if the Realms had hints of a Cthulu-like origin, with Aboleth and whatever ruling the world, I'd have no problem with a sudden return either. But, there isn't, so...
johnkretzer 12-14-07, 05:55 PM	I disagree, it sounded quite fantasy - like the original Conan feels, with the implied link to the Chtulu mythos. Fantasy is not just faux tolkien. I don't consider Chtulu to be fantasy...it is much more horror. Also it is in my opinion very bad horror.(I.E. I don't like that whole mythos). As for it feeling like Conan...meh. I like Eddings stuff better and the bases of fantasy he used.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 06:28 PM	-Like the awkward and (in my opinion) stupid idea of some kind of merging of 'Abeir' and 'Toril', from a single entity, to two seperate entities, back to one single entity again, there is no precident for it. Nothing, asides from a vague reference by THO that I can remember a few years ago, even said that 'Toril' wasn't 'Abeir-Toril'. And that might have just been a hint about the upcoming changes. I think I've mentioned before that I agree with you--I've always thought of "Abeir-Toril" as nothing more than the compound name of the planet, shortened for everyday use.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 06:33 PM	And that might have just been a hint about the upcoming changes. -Well, that's what I meant. I was talking about the past, present and future, all at once! Should've made that more clear. :) I think I've mentioned before that I agree with you. -I'm an agreeable person. A lot of people seem to agree with me. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 06:44 PM	-I'm an agreeable person. A lot of people seem to agree with me. :) snort! :rofl:
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 07:18 PM	-It's the truth. And, I don't have to coerce them in any way, which is a plus.
DreamStalker 12-15-07, 02:31 AM	A fantasy use of Cthulu mythos is enjoyable for me. For others I can see where it is not. As for FR, agreed that it doesn't fit very well. On the other hand, what they did in Lords of Madness giving it a way to fit into FR was very nice. Developing the setting by putting out more options that are not canon are nice little modules. Not needed in an FR book but a nice thing to put into a Core Book that can be adapted to other settings. Just my opinions;) Have not read Stardeep yet either. Personally, for FR rather than a continuous move forward I would rather see a focus on historical and current timeline development. As far as Roleplaying games are concerned I prefer a baseline timeperiod and all sourcebooks to be based on that, at least within an edition. Metaplot and moving the world forward should be a separate class of sourcebook in my opinion. As for edition timeline changes I am actually okay with that. However i also believe the previous timelines presented in previous editions should be supported in the updated rules. Hence some issues I have with the 4E FR (may be a false alarm when the book comes out, who knows for sure but the developers?), Dragonlance the Fifth Age and such like that. Some games with continuous storyline advancement at least present the option of past play despite current events. Vampire the Masquerade in going from 2ed to Revised got rid of most all Ravnos and a few bloodlines, but largely mentioned and gave rules for most of them (though not the Ahrimanes!). Legend of the Five Rings definitely has an addiction with advancing storylines every book, but they almost always present the past mechanics as well.
DreamStalker 12-15-07, 02:34 AM	Good point (although, I've gone with Ed's explanation and made it work for my Realms).:) On the Shadow Weave, what was Ed's explanation? I always preferred the Magic of Faerun version where it was an ages old conspiracy by Shar just now fully blooming. Disliked the Return of the Archwizards version.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 02:52 AM	On the Shadow Weave, what was Ed's explanation? I always preferred the Magic of Faerun version where it was an ages old conspiracy by Shar just now fully blooming. Disliked the Return of the Archwizards version. -Heh, there are so many explanations, just go ahead and pick and choose the ones you like. :)
DreamStalker 12-15-07, 03:06 AM	Already did. Just curious which one Ed chose! Hehe. I already diverge with Ed on a lot of stuff so one more won't matter.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 06:29 PM	On the Shadow Weave, what was Ed's explanation? I always preferred the Magic of Faerun version where it was an ages old conspiracy by Shar just now fully blooming. Disliked the Return of the Archwizards version. Since you asked--basically, Ed said that the Shadow Weave is really a part of the Weave itself...an "echo" of the regular Weave and also under Mystra's jurisdiction. The Shadow Weave was not created by Shar and she has no control over it, but she can control access to it. But like LK said, that's one of many explanations that are floating around.:)
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 10:06 PM	Since you asked--basically, Ed said that the Shadow Weave is really a part of the Weave itself...an "echo" of the regular Weave and also under Mystra's jurisdiction. The Shadow Weave was not created by Shar and she has no control over it, but she can control access to it. But like LK said, that's one of many explanations that are floating around.:) -Eh, that goes against canon, but on this subject, there are 13 different "true" stories anyway. Personally, I don't like this explanation at all- it's the part about the Shadow Weave really being part of the Weave, under Mystra's jurisdiction. That further bolsters the idea of "Super Mystra" that I can't stand.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 10:27 PM	-Eh, that goes against canon, but on this subject, there are 13 different "true" stories anyway. Personally, I don't like this explanation at all- it's the part about the Shadow Weave really being part of the Weave, under Mystra's jurisdiction. That further bolsters the idea of "Super Mystra" that I can't stand. Well, the great thing about it is there are so many different theories people can just pick the one they like.:)
MarkusTay63 12-15-07, 10:55 PM	It's actually VERY Eberronesque, using Aboleths instead of Daelkyr. I like that feel in Eberron, just like I like Cthulhu in Lovecraftian Worlds, or Gothic Horror in Ravenloft, or even psionics in Dark Sun. But all of those worlds are NOT FR, and their contents fit their flavor. Throwing all this 'mish-mosh' into FR at this point just seems to be going back to the 'bad' times at the end of 2e, when designers were just fitting every little thing into the Realms, weather it belonged or not (like Spelljammer Starports in major cities). This is obviously a deus ex machina to make FR the new 'core'. Eberron didn't 'fit' with core very well, and Greyhawk seems to have finally tanked. That leaves FR as the core 'flagship', and unfortunately it appears that EVERY idea will find a place somewhere in the Realms, BECAUSE it is in the core rules. Being the 'default setting' didn't help GH in the end, I really doubt it will do anything positive for FR. Just my :twocents:
18DELTA 12-16-07, 10:50 PM	-It's the truth. And, I don't have to coerce them in any way, which is a plus. Its because we stand in AWE of your Greatness!;)
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 11:01 PM	Its because we stand in AWE of your Greatness!;) -Yeah, most people do. :cool:
Fingoldfin 12-17-07, 01:31 AM	-Really? I think it's so "anti-Realms" that I can't stand the entire "Stardeep plotline" (Sleeping gods, merging of worlds, Aboleth, etc.). To me, it isn't the Realms, and it feels as they're just converting someone else's campaign ideas into the Realms. I mean, they are all interesting ideas, but barring retcons, they don't have any grounding in the Realms. I have no idea what the Stardeep plot line is so I can't really comment. As for the stuff in Lords of Madness most of the creatures covered in it are rare in the Realms or confined to the Underdark. I didn't see anything that needed to be retconned. I'm not saying that there should be some kind of Aberration empire on the surface. Since Baker was a designer on the book I figured that much of it would become canon anyway. I'm interested to know what in LoM you think would be retcon? Or were you talking about something in Stardeep? Also feel free to spoil me because I don't plan to read Stardeep. :)
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 01:38 AM	-A very brief summary of the plotline of Stardeep: Stardeep is an ancient citadel that (somehow)predates the Sildeyuir. The Traitor (who can possibly be Mourel Duskwalker, from the Twilight Tomb module) somehow gained the knowledge of how to call the Aboleth and their "Elder deities", who once ruled Toril, but were cast away by long-forgotten deities and the Cerulean Sign. He was cast away, and sealed in Stardeep, as a ritual or his death could cause the Aboleth-led city of X-something to spill into Faer�n. Every so often, the Traitor tries to escape, and it was one escape attempt that caused Kiril's blade, Angul, to be forged from the soul of her lover, Nangulis. A Keeper of the Cerulean Sign in Stardeep, who also happened to be a Diviner, saw the need to forge a blade from the remnant of Nangulis' essence, Nis, which he would need to counter the Aboleth threat he saw in his dreams. Eventually, he lures Kiril to Stardeep, as she used to be a Keeper, and reunited Angul-Nis, going crazy in the process. Telarian, the Keeper who lured Kiril back to Stardeep attempts to free the Traitor, but is stopped in the process, and winds up being imprisoned with the Traitor, who was indeed using his powers to control Telarian.
The Ubbergeek 12-19-07, 11:01 PM	FR was, and never will be Core. For once, it's slightly more detached from base D&D than the real core of the past - greyhawk. It will remains a setting. They added things, but that don't make it 'core' in any real way. And again, you see it - it's the top-selling, main setting, but still, a setting. Now the game will come with a sort of mini setting of it own but not FR.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-20-07, 07:24 PM	It will remains a setting. They added things, but that don't make it 'core' in any real way. And again, you see it - it's the top-selling, main setting, but still, a setting. Now the game will come with a sort of mini setting of it own but not FR. ...:confused:
The Ubbergeek 12-20-07, 08:22 PM	...:confused: Someone stated here that FR would become the Core world, and so they would adapt it to fit coreness, yadda yadda. I stated that while there was tempering, it was never question to make it the core world in any way.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-20-07, 08:46 PM	Someone stated here that FR would become the Core world, and so they would adapt it to fit coreness, yadda yadda. I stated that while there was tempering, it was never question to make it the core world in any way. OK, NOW I understand you.:)
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 09:19 PM	Someone stated here that FR would become the Core world, and so they would adapt it to fit coreness, yadda yadda. -Though it probably isn't going to be the Core, Generic, Default world, there is much adapting going on, to reconcile the Realms with Generic D&D. While it would be nice that each individual setting has it's own individual rules, that's not the way it works. The Realms, just like Eberron and any other settings that get updated in 4e (Oriental Adventures, Dragonlance, maybe?) have to be tweaked to be able to adapt to the new Core Rules- hence so many changes with Elves, or Dragonborn, or whatever it is.