Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwenfloor 09-08-06, 11:15 PM	Ever got tired of your Characters asking every single person who hires them why doesn't Elminster handle the job? Well, believe it or not, the strongest NPCs in the Realms are Evil! That means that if Elminster started zipping around willy-nilly, all those powerful evil figures would have put him in his place already. Thus, Elminster is keeping a low profile in Shadowdale. A sample list of NPCs more powerful than Elminster are: High Prince Telamount, Ruler of the City of Shade, 37th level Shade Wizard/Archmage Daurgothoth, Challenge Rating 50 Red Dragon with 25 levels in Wizard and 5 levels in Archmage. Plenty of powerful NPCs can also be found in Lost Empires of Faerun, like that Netherese Elder Brain (somewhere around a CR of 68) Serpent Kingdoms has a couple of Sarrukh NPCs that can take on Elminster.
Harrowdroth 09-08-06, 11:53 PM	Heres a one liner: THERE IS A SIDEBAR IN THE F.R.C.S. THAT EXLAINS THIS. Not trying to be an A**.
Nickpire 09-08-06, 11:53 PM	I like the article Elminster wrote in the FRCS core about why the good and powerful don't solve every problem day in and day out.
Dargoth 09-08-06, 11:54 PM	In my own Realms campaign Elminster and the other chosen arent allowed to interfer outside their deities portfolios and AO enforces this. Mystra is the goddess of Magic shes not the goddess of freedom and happiness therefore Elminster isnt allowed to go smacking Banites just because he doesnt like them.
Alac Luin 09-09-06, 12:05 AM	El needs at least 8 hours sleep a day. He's getinng old, and spends more time in the bathroom. Lets put this at about 3 hours a day. He needs to eat, one hour per meal, another 3 hours. Watch the red wizard's portals, 2 hours a day... We are running out of time that he can do anything. :)
BadCatMan 09-09-06, 12:40 AM	"Who's Elminster?" "He's watching his stories. Go away." "He's on the other side of the continent and you've two days to save the world. Get back to work."
Derren S. 09-09-06, 03:04 AM	You are too focused on Elminster. There are dozends of high level NPCS (Even if they are only lvl 20...) in the realms and the chance is greate that some of them live in the area which is affected by teh BBEG's plot. The question is why don't they solve the problem.
The Ubbergeek 09-09-06, 10:31 AM	Because they themselves have other things to do at times? or the dm is fearing to be seen as railroading and stuff?
GothicDan 09-09-06, 12:59 PM	Respond: "Because he's too busy helping one of the other 5,000 low-level adventuring parties asking the same question. Or drinking some tea and complaining about his bones aching." Or: "Why isn't the FBI stopping that bully in your middle school?"
Derren S. 09-09-06, 01:02 PM	Because they themselves have other things to do at times? or the dm is fearing to be seen as railroading and stuff? That works for as long the PCs don't do anything important. But as soon as they do like saving a city, important person or even a whole country, "having something better to do" is not really a valid excuse.
Gwenfloor 09-09-06, 01:57 PM	Good point, guys. They cannot solve everything at once. Maybe your villain in your adventure found out a clever magic device that prevents those from outside his/her nation/city/lair from scrying, teleporting in, or using any sort of hamful magic.
GothicDan 09-09-06, 02:30 PM	That works for as long the PCs don't do anything important. But as soon as they do like saving a city, important person or even a whole country, "having something better to do" is not really a valid excuse. Sure it is. Do you think that the thousands of other adventurers and NPCs are just sitting around themselves while the PCs are adventuring?
The Ubbergeek 09-09-06, 03:28 PM	Good answer. They work on the background. It is not because it is not obvious that nothing happens. While your heroes may charge and encounters the orc king and his men, the npc stay behind to ready for the assault...
Red_Wizard 09-09-06, 04:34 PM	hmmmm...well maybe when your 10th level, and the dm says, here is a bag of worms to crush, but if you do that the hill giants get away, then you can pick the worms and tell me if it was rewarding. MAYBE while your all toddering around killing the little things, the bigger things aren't killing you because the "Elminsters" and the "Drizzts" of the campaign world are keeping them inline....atleast until you yourself can come fill the boots of the last guy that died doing that job (or maybe went on to clean up that dragon mess somewhere else). If Elminster started popping in to help the farmer get his goats back from the goblin king, somewhere else there is someone who poses a real threat taking over a country. But that's ok right? As long as all the powerful guys drop everything to come make sure little billy gets tucked in nice and tight before he goes to bed :rolleyes: So basically next time you wanna be smart and say "Why doesn't Elminster just do this", your DM will say "You know your right 'You all see elminster appear and fight the goblins, a second later you stand in the middle of a horde of 30,000 orcs ready and equipped for battle'.......you're all dead"
Derren S. 09-10-06, 07:22 AM	Sure it is. Do you think that the thousands of other adventurers and NPCs are just sitting around themselves while the PCs are adventuring? They have to when the PCs want to have any fun in the realms. If the other adventurers and NPCs are activly participating then the PCs have nothing important left to do as every important job would be taken by one of the high level NPCs/groups which are rather commen in the FR and better qualified for the important things. Most DMs of course decide to ignore that simply saying that the others "have better things to do" which is quite rediculus because it would mean that at every time there have to be hundereds of world/country/city destroying plots going on to keep the NPCs busy. But as long as the players don't ask "Why doesn't X save the city/country/world he lives in" (and in the FR every bigger city has high level NPCs) it works.
Raelan_Harpell 09-10-06, 08:27 AM	I've found that people with this problem often tend to think of the Realms in terms of Dragonlance or other fantasy settings where there is one monolithic evil and one set of heroes. These people fail to realize that the scope of the Realms is a lot larger than that - that there are thousands of heroes and many thousands of villains. There simply isn't anywhere near enough time in a day for Elminster or even all the Chosen and other uber good NPCs combined to foil all of the plots and punish the wrongdoings taking place in the Realms (even assuming they were omniscient and knew about all of them in the first place!).
Raelan_Harpell 09-10-06, 08:35 AM	They have to when the PCs want to have any fun in the realms. If the other adventurers and NPCs are activly participating then the PCs have nothing important left to do as every important job would be taken by one of the high level NPCs/groups which are rather commen in the FR and better qualified for the important things. Most DMs of course decide to ignore that simply saying that the others "have better things to do" which is quite rediculus because it would mean that at every time there have to be hundereds of world/country/city destroying plots going on to keep the NPCs busy. But as long as the players don't ask "Why doesn't X save the city/country/world he lives in" (and in the FR every bigger city has high level NPCs) it works. Have you considered the fact that there are probably two evil NPC adventuring parties and three or four neutral ones for every good-aligned one? Neutral adventuring parties would be out in pursuit of wealth and fame, though not (usually) willing to trample others to get it. Evil adventuring parties would be in search of the same, but have no compunctions about walking over others to get what they want. Just like the real world, the good-aligned person willing to sacrifice his own wealth and time to help others is a much less common beast. Most people pursue their own ends and help others when they don't have to go out of their way do so (excluding friends, which even evil people may be willing to help), making them neutral.
GothicDan 09-10-06, 01:59 PM	They have to when the PCs want to have any fun in the realms. If the other adventurers and NPCs are activly participating then the PCs have nothing important left to do as every important job would be taken by one of the high level NPCs/groups which are rather commen in the FR and better qualified for the important things. Incorrect. There are far more low-level, minor plots, problems, and intrigues than there are high-level ones. That's what all of the PC adventuring parties are running around solving. FR is not a politically static world, no matter what you may think it is. Your view of the Realms seems to be very, very small-scale, because you only take into account what is specifically printed in sourcebooks, and not what is said (blatantly or inferred) by designers and novels as well.
EytanBernstein 09-10-06, 02:31 PM	I think it's important to add that the novels and supplements only write about a small sample of people. There are thousands of heroes, as mentioned by a variety of people, and hundreds of important things going on at any given time. There are probably 10 or 15 Realms shaking things going on at any given time - note numerous trilogies and stand alone novels occur at approximately the same time. Even if Elminster wanted to, and he probably doesn't, he couldn't deal with all of them. Sure, if Manshoon has his finger on the "Faerun explodes if I push this," button, El might stop by, but he might be already dealing with the "Simbul has gone made and is trying to destroy all magic in the universe," problem. In a world of many millions of people, many thousands of important things are happening. Some, El and similarly well known people have a personal interest in. Others, they don't even know about, but probably should. There is a limit to the number of divination spells a single Wizard can cast, no matter how powerful he is.
Derren S. 09-10-06, 02:40 PM	Incorrect. There are far more low-level, minor plots, problems, and intrigues than there are high-level ones. That's what all of the PC adventuring parties are running around solving. So and what would this mean to the many high level NPCs/parties in the FR? Like you implied, they are not sitting around doing nothing. It means that the high level parties who are currently unemployed have to take on lower level problems which they can solve very fast without much problems. Too bad for the lower level parties who are forced to do the utterly crap/disgusting and underpaid jobs because everything else is beeing done by higher level NPCs.
GothicDan 09-10-06, 02:47 PM	Too bad for the lower level parties who are forced to do the utterly crap/disgusting and underpaid jobs because everything else is beeing done by higher level NPCs. What do you mean 'too bad'? If it wasn't for the higher level NPCs, every low level party on the face of Faerun would have been long-ago destroyed by the likes of the Churches of Bane, Cyric, Shar, and Talos, the Twisted Rune, the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, the Shades, etc.
Derren S. 09-10-06, 03:02 PM	Thats definatly true for some high level NPCs. But in the FR there are so much high level NPCs that it is rediculus to think that a equal number of plots which require high level NPCs exists. Even as a game world the FR is not a marvel coming which is constantly threatened by new galactic evil which require the fines heroes of the planet to stop. Multiple times. Week after week. If there really are so many high level problems to keep all those high level NPCs busy all the time then how many low level problems must exist? It seems every inhabitant of faerun must plot to destroy something only to provide jobs to all the low level adventuring parties.
GothicDan 09-10-06, 03:03 PM	You do realize that there are as many, if not more, evil high level NPCs as good ones, right?
Derren S. 09-10-06, 03:06 PM	Says who? I have yet to see a statistic on that.
GothicDan 09-10-06, 03:11 PM	And I've never seen a statistic saying the number of times I've pointed out the reference to you, but it doesn't mean that the statistics don't exist. Even if I told you, it's not like it would make a difference, since you'd just make up some paltry excuse to ignore the information in order to validate your own twisted paradigm of the status quo.
Derren S. 09-10-06, 03:18 PM	Even if I told you, it's not like it would make a difference, since you'd just make up some paltry excuse to ignore the information in order to validate your own twisted paradigm of the status quo. I asume that means the source of the statistic is "Ed said so"? Or does it mean "It doesn't exist and I don't want to admit it"? I wonder how many of the published high level NPCs are good and how many are evil.
Dark Wizard 09-10-06, 05:31 PM	A count of Kuje's NPC file should give you a rough idea. Though your logic seems to be: If the Special Forces are so great, it makes the purpose and actions of the Army, Navy and Air Force obsolete. Then why do nations still maintain such expensive forces. If the SWAT teams or special crimes taskforces are so great, why not disband the rest of the police? Heck, add in the Fire and Sanitation departments, maybe throw in the environmental protection agency for fun. If the President (or Prime Minister) is so powerful and mighty, why not dismantle the other parts of the government, give the VP his pension and save everyone the trouble. In fact, let's dissolve all the world governments and have one superpowerful leader in charge of the whole thing.
Gwenfloor 09-10-06, 06:36 PM	I know you guys have great points, but several people I know nevertheless keep asking me this question! The world does not revolve around Elminster!
Mecha_Pope 09-10-06, 07:17 PM	Look at it like nuculer (sp?) weapons. The concept is called mutually assured destruction. Both sides have these great big uber destructive weapons that they can never use because then the other guy will use his uber weapon on you. Therefor you have to use reguler weapons to get things done. If El attacked Thay, then soon other evil powers would go against El, (the enimy of my enimy is my friend) or decide to git him after hes weak from fighting the red wizards. Then the good guys will come to help, then more evil guys, forming pacts and alliances. Pretty soon, there is no realms anymore. Thats why smaller charichters do it. If a group of adventurers take out Sass Tam, they wouldn't be uber powerful enough to make everyone uh-oh. After all, it wasn't one dude but like 6 of em. If El did it then the other BBEGS would go, crap El finally got off his ass and did something we're probibly next lets get him first! Then as i said earlyer you just get a war involving ever Uber-dude in the Relms which destroys the word. Same reason the US never attacked soviet russia and vice versa
Bladesong 09-10-06, 07:32 PM	Nuc... u... ler? OMG!! Mecha is George Dubya!!
Krash 09-11-06, 01:40 AM	The answer is very simple. Next time your metagaming PCs ask that question, have a dry, disembodied voice whisper into all of their ears: "Seemingly 'tis a poor brand of hero being bred these days. Aye, why don't ye just retire now to sheep herding or some other less grand occupation and save yon task for some real heroes.":) -- George Krashos
Derren S. 09-11-06, 01:48 AM	Its not metagaming. It is logical. When a, for example, city is threatened the question "Why do the powerfull people living in that city don't do something against that and instead we, which are at constant risk of dieing and failing to stop the enemy have to?"
Ripe 09-11-06, 03:14 AM	Its not metagaming. It is logical. When a, for example, city is threatened the question "Why do the powerfull people living in that city don't do something against that and instead we, which are at constant risk of dieing and failing to stop the enemy have to?" How about this? High levels living in some community send us, PC's who "are at constant risk of dieing and failing to stop the enemy" to act as a diversion [PC's are expendable, after all] while constantly scrying on them so that they could teleport in [even if I disagree with teleport spell allowing you to teleport to location you did not personally visited that is cannon version] during the commotion caused by PC's to solve the problem even easier because each spell or resource BBEG use to wipe out PC's is a resource he can't use against that high level NPC. Of course if PC's are doing a good job, then there is no need for them to intervene. Only if PC's become in danger of failing [not dying, PC's are expendable and unimportant, after all], using the distraction and commotion caused by PC's would those NPC's intervene. The basic "why risk my skin if I could find some fool to do it for me" routine.
Krash 09-11-06, 03:34 AM	Its not metagaming. It is logical. When a, for example, city is threatened the question "Why do the powerfull people living in that city don't do something against that and instead we, which are at constant risk of dieing and failing to stop the enemy have to?" I was speaking of the use of Elminster. Unless the DM's campaign is set in the Dalelands or the Moonsea, it absolutely is metagaming. What do lowly adventurers of the Border Kingdoms, or Calimport, or Darromar or Lapaliiya know of "Elminster of Shadowdale"? Very little. As it should be. They certainly would not know that he flits around the whole Realms doing this or that for his own agenda. As for your example, if it's a "save the city/realm" scenario, then the PCs (in a well-run, coherent and consistent campaign) will BE the "powerful people" and hence expected to wade into the fray. Low level tasks for low level PCs and high level tasks for high level PCs. That's the way it works, doesn't it? -- George Krashos
Delzounblood 09-11-06, 09:17 AM	I read the answer to this one somewhere, in a nut shell it's Which does more good? Giving a child a spell book to play with, so that someday he/she will grow up to be a Archmage. or Blowing the crap out of Manshoon AGAIN It was in Crown of Fire, I belive Dove asked Ed the same question this was basically his answer cut down to size. There is one flaw in the above qoute, the young child could grow upto be another Manshoon type char, but my view is if Ed did everything what would we do????? The world would be boring, peaceful, and evil do'ers free, I say let the old one sit by the fire and let the young blood through to battle evil or good depending on your view point.
Gwenfloor 09-11-06, 01:06 PM	We have solved the problem. The problem was the fact that gobs and gobs of people I know and don't know ask the very same question. For their information, El is not a God. Sure he may be powerful, but he is a thousand years old! Give him a break for once!
Alediran 09-11-06, 02:11 PM	Its not metagaming. It is logical. When a, for example, city is threatened the question "Why do the powerfull people living in that city don't do something against that and instead we, which are at constant risk of dieing and failing to stop the enemy have to?" The Powerfull Fighter types at that time are old (Durnan, Mirt, etc), The Powerfull Caster could be doing something else that requires his/her attention (crafting magical items/researching spells)
Derren S. 09-11-06, 02:24 PM	The Powerfull Fighter types at that time are old (Durnan, Mirt, etc), The Powerfull Caster could be doing something else that requires his/her attention (crafting magical items/researching spells) Researching and crafting are sure more importnat then saving your home. So important that it can't even be interrupted for some days to do something else.
Alediran 09-11-06, 02:26 PM	Researching and crafting are sure more importnat then saving your home. So important that it can't even be interrupted for some days to do something else. If you started doing it, you can't be interrupted or all your work is lost.
Derren S. 09-11-06, 02:33 PM	If you started doing it, you can't be interrupted or all your work is lost. A couple of thousand GP are of course more important then to save the life and homes of many people including yourself...
Alediran 09-11-06, 02:39 PM	A couple of thousand GP are of course more important then to save the life and homes of many people including yourself... Consider that you are researching the "I BECOME THE GOD OF MAGIC" spell (just to use a very blatant example) that took you a lot of time to research, and in the last day of research, a band of orcs knock at the doors of your city. Would you stop your long research in the last moment just because a couple orcs attack the place where you live, knowing that you aren't the only one who could deal with the vermin? Or lets us another spell for research, the "EVIL IS DESTROYED FOREVER" spell in the example above, if you could research it, in the end what would be the greater good, finish researching the spell or kill a couple orcs?
Gwenfloor 09-11-06, 02:59 PM	I set up Elminster as a "Lambert" from Splinter Cell. He is influencing the destruction of Evil and sometimes selfish Neutral, by means of magical contact with several adventuring groups. He gives them covert help, while he cannot show up himself for the previous reason that one poster said that if El attacked Thay, then all the Evil people would be joining together to kill him.
Mecha_Pope 09-11-06, 03:41 PM	Nuc... u... ler? OMG!! Mecha is George Dubya!! I believe we're turning the corner. In the kind of world fr is, in order to do something big, you have to be either beyond notice, have stones the size of a great red wyrm, or be just plain daft. Just because a person is good dosn't mean they have no sence of self preservation. Anyways, if all the great folk of the realm got in a big fight, they'd just end up destroying faerun, and not even the bad guys want that.
GothicDan 09-11-06, 03:41 PM	Its not metagaming. It is logical. When a, for example, city is threatened the question "Why do the powerfull people living in that city don't do something against that and instead we, which are at constant risk of dieing and failing to stop the enemy have to?" Again, why doesn't the FBI and the Marines get involved with minor street gang wars in NYC, or with breaking up fights between high school clicks?
Derren S. 09-11-06, 03:43 PM	Since when do some street gangs threaten a city? And have I to remind you what the national guard did in New Orleans?
Dark Wizard 09-11-06, 05:12 PM	You defeated your own point... The National Guard is made up of ordinary people. One of my friends is in the National Guard, he's a regular guy just like everyone else. The problems in New Orleans would not have stop if you air dropped half a dozen four star generals into the city. It wouldn't have helped if they dropped a couple special forces teams into the city. Nor would those same generals stop the problems if they dropped a nuke on the city, that just creates more problems. In the end, it was regular people (including the National Guard) that helped restore order to the city. The government officials (barely) played their part, the military people played their part, and the individual citizens played their part. Ultimately, the actions of regular civilians and light military units were what got the job done.
Derren S. 09-11-06, 05:16 PM	You defeated your own point... The National Guard is made up of ordinary people. One of my friends is in the National Guard, he's a regular guy just like everyone else. Thats probably the reason why some of them came straight from Iraq. Everyone is just a ordinary guy just with a different occupation. But the national guard is on teh same level as FBI and Marines so there is an example where such a force was used against normal criminals when the city was threatened. The same way how a high level character would fight against an enemy "below him" when his home is threatened.
Dark Wizard 09-11-06, 06:10 PM	Actually, the National Guard is technically supposed to be used for domestic situations such as New Orleans. Sending them to Iraq (a situation that is usually beyond their jurisdiction) is like sending regular adventurers to deal with a problem on a national or international level, not just special/elite forces. The National Guard are supposed to be under the control of states. The FBI and Marines are under federal control. Case of smaller scale units drawn into large scale conflicts or problems. Either way, in real life and in the Forgotten Realms, regular people are called upon to handle very important and dire situations, sometimes to perform beyond their expected capabilities. The mighty, whether a cabal of archmages or the President and his advisors, act behind the scenes organizing things, using their influence. They are not always correct.
Delzounblood 09-11-06, 06:20 PM	Dark Wizard Thats what I understood but hey I'm a Brit!!
BadCatMan 09-12-06, 12:03 AM	Of course, if all the already-powerful adventurers were doing everything, then the low-level adventurers would have nothing to do, and wouldn't earn experience and wouldn't become powerful. Then when the high-level guys die off, there'd be no one to take care of the big threats. Or maybe the high-level guys are solving the problems - if you fail, then Elminster's got your back. Of course, he's not going to tell you about it. *** When I research the Realms and put together a plot, I take as full as possible survey of all the movers-and-shakers in the region. Then work out important factors, like "who knows about this threat?", "who can deal with it?", "who would care to?", "what happens to them?", and "where do the PCs fit in all this, and how can they help in as heroic way as possible?". Perhaps the local powerful adventurer is behind the threat after all. Perhaps the LPA was assassinated by the BBEG prior to launching the evil plan. Perhaps the LPA's taking care of one side of the problem while the PCs take care of the other (too bad the BBEG planned for this and sent the LPA on a wild goose chase while the PCs are dealing with the BBEG himself). Perhaps the LPA is on holiday.
Ripe 09-12-06, 02:46 AM	...Perhaps the local powerful adventurer is behind the threat after all. Perhaps the LPA was assassinated by the BBEG prior to launching the evil plan. Perhaps the LPA's taking care of one side of the problem while the PCs take care of the other (too bad the BBEG planned for this and sent the LPA on a wild goose chase while the PCs are dealing with the BBEG himself). Perhaps the LPA is on holiday. You forget the most probable one: Perhaps LPA uses PC's as decoys and distraction so that BBEG use his resources [minions and spells] defeatung them, so that LPA could defeat BBEG that much easier [since resources used against PC's can't be used against him]. Of course if PC's succeed, more power to them, but if they fail and die... well tough luck, let's remember them as heroes who gave their lifes for our community.
BrianCritchley 09-12-06, 03:34 AM	why doesn't elminister get invovled? cause he doesn't need too. yet again using his "defending his home" example, last time shadowdale was attacked, in DR 1374. elminister didn't do anything to help. we find out in the novel Blackstaff he was elsewhere conducting other busniess. he is just one man after all. and yet again there are proably more evil NPCs then good NPCs. Now the question of "where are the powerful NPCs and why are they not involved" is a good one to ask as a GM, simply as they should if the PCs are in the region be accounted for. they might simply be out of the region, as what happened when the zhents invaded shadowdale in 1374, they might be incapaitated (as an example read City of Splendors by Elaine cunningham and ed greenwood) or they simply might not desire to get involved, after all the chosen in particular are immortal servants of a god, thus their prespective is differnt. they might eaither not really belive that the issue is too important (to quote joliee Bindo from KOTOR "sure if they win the galaxy';s in for a bad hundred years or so, but it'll straighten itself out") or Mystra could even forbid them from getting invovled. Mystra has forbid her chosen from striking at select wizards before.
Aldareth 09-12-06, 05:55 AM	Thats probably the reason why some of them came straight from Iraq. Everyone is just a ordinary guy just with a different occupation. But the national guard is on teh same level as FBI and Marines so there is an example where such a force was used against normal criminals when the city was threatened. The same way how a high level character would fight against an enemy "below him" when his home is threatened. can u tell me one place wer a uber powerfull good NPC lives that get attacked? ok schadowdale , but during the zents attack didnt elminster fend of the shade princes? was it to safe shadowdale? no he did to safe the world, common people ( low lvl NPCs/PCs) fend of the most of the zents attack. powerfull/high lvl NPCS tent to live in powerfull citys that are capabble to defend them selfs without their help againnst common threats, well for the uncommon threats u maybe request the help of powerfull charakters living in the city. examples: Khelben/Waterdeep, Alustriel/ Silverymoon , Symboul/Altumbel, Garreth Dragonbane/Heliogabalus, Fzoul/Zhentil Keep, Vandehrgast/Cormyr. now lets take a look on adventurers: not every adventurer just look for glory and fame , but even them are looking for some wealth/payment for their services, for example The Steel Hands ( CG Adveturer Party LVL 10+) have a price , they take 100g per day and man for a mission and thats a price u didnt pay them for just eliminating a group of Goblins that occupied a cave near your city , insteed u take the low lvl adveturers that work for the loot and the fame that provides them more missions. Short: for every work there is a tool, u dont take a Sledgehammer to put that tiny nail in to the wand for your picture ;)
dizfactor 09-12-06, 06:18 AM	Its not metagaming. It is logical. When a, for example, city is threatened the question "Why do the powerfull people living in that city don't do something against that and instead we, which are at constant risk of dieing and failing to stop the enemy have to?" Well, if you have a decent DM, and your characters are trying to save someplace where a well-established heavy-hitter lives, said heavy-hitter will try... and fail. Let's say the big threat is that an orc army is attacking Silverymoon. First of all, you don't just start off with "You're hanging out in a tavern in Silverymoon and all of a sudden orcs start attacking." No, you build up to it. Have the PCs out on some piddling trivial milk run of an adventure out in the woods, when they stumble onto a massive orc army gathering north of Silverymoon. "Holy frak," the PCs say. "We've got to get back to Silverymoon and tell Alustriel Silverhand so she can wallop them." So then they go back to Silverymoon, and go to see Alustriel, and she's (locked in battle with some kind of extraplanar baddie/been shot with a magical poison dart that's put her to sleep/been tricked into touching something that transports her to some faraway plane/whatever). The orcs, not being stupid, only moved when they had some kind of plan in place for dealing with the known heavy-hitter, or maybe the being responsible for taking out Alustriel is the real villain, and the orcs are just his pawns. Whatever. The point is that the Big Hero is out of the picture, the orcs are still on their way, and the chambermaid at Alustriel's place and the guy who runs the tavern and the captain of the guard are all looking at the PCs like "Do something." Of course, after they've successfully defended Silverymoon from the orc armies, and uncovered the plot to take out Alustriel, the PCs are now themselves Big Heroes. People will come and ask them for help. They will have made some enemies. Maybe Alustriel or one of her friends knows something that needs doing that they might just be able to do, while she goes and gets back to the business of running her city, because, you see, Big Heroes the PCs have heard of have Big Responsibilities, a million things on their plates already and have no time to take care of all of them... It's kind of like a big superhero universe. Why isn't Thor fighting the mob in Hell's Kitchen? Because he knows Daredevil has it under control while he goes and fights Galactus or something. Why can't Batman help me solve a murder in Oshkosh? Because he's kind of busy trying to stop the Joker from poisoning Gotham's water supply while working in time for the big JLA mission. The PCs start out like small time superheroes, catching the problems that fall through the cracks because the big names can only be in one place at a time, and the more they accomplish, the more people start looking at them like big name people themselves and start dumping more problems in their laps.
BrennonGoldeye 09-14-06, 07:41 AM	The answer is very simple. Next time your metagaming PCs ask that question, have a dry, disembodied voice whisper into all of their ears: "Seemingly 'tis a poor brand of hero being bred these days. Aye, why don't ye just retire now to sheep herding or some other less grand occupation and save yon task for some real heroes.":) -- George Krashos BURN!!:rofl:
Derren S. 09-14-06, 12:20 PM	Whatever. The point is that the Big Hero is out of the picture, the orcs are still on their way, and the chambermaid at Alustriel's place and the guy who runs the tavern and the captain of the guard are all looking at the PCs like "Do something." The problem is that in the FR there is no "one big hero". If the big hero can't stop the threat for some reason there are many "not so big heros" left, all more powerfull then the PCs, who can do something. In your example, if I remember right, Alutriels current husband isn't low level either. Then there are her advisors, apprentices, the Knights in Silver, the High Guard, The Spellguard, the High Mage of Silverymoon and the members of the Conclave, the members of Silverymoons temples, the dragon queen and her mate who lair nearby and are friends of Alustriel, etc. Not to forget that the other chosen would come to Alustriels aid as would other powerfull heroes from the area. So enough powerfull people who can do the job the PCs expect to do themself, just quicker and with a lower chance of failure. Unless of course the PCs are lvl 17 or higher.
Riodrian 09-14-06, 01:43 PM	Since when do some street gangs threaten a city? And have I to remind you what the national guard did in New Orleans? Never lived in an inner city neighbourhood, have you? Why did the National Guard go? When the Navy SEALS are much more powerful? The answer to the Elminter issue, in my eyes, is this: Elminster cannot be everywhere at once. There is no way he can spread himself that thin. Think of Hitler or Napolean attacking several different fronts...it weakened them overall and they paid the price. Also, Elminster is not arrogant enough to think he will always be around. If he takes care of the every little issue, no heroes will rise and the Realms will be in serious jeopardy is he dies and these is nothing but lazy and complacent sheep-herders to stem the flow of evil.
Ripe 09-14-06, 07:32 PM	The problem is that in the FR there is no "one big hero". If the big hero can't stop the threat for some reason there are many "not so big heros" left, all more powerfull then the PCs, who can do something. In your example, if I remember right, Alutriels current husband isn't low level either. Then there are her advisors, apprentices, the Knights in Silver, the High Guard, The Spellguard, the High Mage of Silverymoon and the members of the Conclave, the members of Silverymoons temples, the dragon queen and her mate who lair nearby and are friends of Alustriel, etc. Not to forget that the other chosen would come to Alustriels aid as would other powerfull heroes from the area. So enough powerfull people who can do the job the PCs expect to do themself, just quicker and with a lower chance of failure. Unless of course the PCs are lvl 17 or higher. I said it twice allready, and I'm going to say it again: Local High Level NPC's don't deal with the threat innitially and let PC's do the dirty work for one reason only: They are not stupid And attacking BBEG in his lair, when he had all the protection in place, all the minions, full spellcasting capability [if spellcaster] and all the other resources is stupid move. Let's use logic. If BBEG can use his minions to weaken PC's, so could Local High Level NPC use their own minions to weaken BBEG. And that minions are PC's. Sure enough, Local High Level NPC will scry on PC's while they're on their quest [or more likely have some apprentice do it for them], to learn when PC's finally face BBEG in facedown. At that point Local High Level NPC is ready to teleport there and defeat BBEG. But only after BBEG finish with PC's. At that point, PC's have weaken BBEG [he lost some/most of his minions against them, they triggered some/most wards and glyphs BBEG used for protection, PC's possibly even wounded BBEG and forced him to spend some/most of his reasources] so that Local High Level NPC could defeat BBEG with ease and with very little risk to himself. After defeating BBEG, Local High Level NPC would either bring PC's corpses [if any] back with him/her so that some priest could raise PC's [if good] or simply left without PC's [if neutral]. Of course there is allways a chance that PC's would win battle with BBEG. So failure never come into play. Either PC's would do it or they would die in which case it's up to Local High Level NPC to do it. And he'll have much more safer and easier job to do it than if he/she didn't send PC's first.
Thanqol 09-14-06, 10:21 PM	At that point Local High Level NPC is ready to teleport there and defeat BBEG. But only after BBEG finish with PC's. At that point, PC's have weaken BBEG [he lost some/most of his minions against them, they triggered some/most wards and glyphs BBEG used for protection, PC's possibly even wounded BBEG and forced him to spend some/most of his reasources] so that Local High Level NPC could defeat BBEG with ease and with very little risk to himself. After defeating BBEG, Local High Level NPC would either bring PC's corpses [if any] back with him/her so that some priest could raise PC's [if good] or simply left without PC's [if neutral]. Of course there is allways a chance that PC's would win battle with BBEG. ... Is that seriously how you play your games? "Lord Evil makes a full attack, and kills the fighter. That's two out of three party members down in two rounds." Wizard: "Hell. The only good spell I have left is Greater Dispel." *Casts* "Okay, after Evil's buffs go down, Local High Level NPC teleports in and Metor Strikes him. He'd been scrying on you all along and just waiting for that moment. He ressurects you all and teleports home." ... I'd rather eat my character sheet than be upstaged that often/blatantly.
Gwenfloor 09-14-06, 11:08 PM	I play my games in which the Epic Level NPCs are covertly trying to influence/attack each other. Elminster is using the PCs to infiltrate the Shade City in order to stop High Prince Telamount's plans. Elminster is there, it is just that he is so famous that if he went into the city instead of the PCs, he would be imprisoned/killed on sight. Telamount is a 37th level Shade Wizard/Archmage/other stuff, plus several of his minions and magic creations, (I plan on using an Adamantine Golem from ELH in case the PCs or El get their cover blown and are a big enough threat) he actually has a fairly good chance of capturing and/or killing Elminster.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-14-06, 11:46 PM	Really though, despite all the excuses, there's really no good reason that Elminster/the other Myriad high level NPcs don't do anything. It's ridiculous, and stupid. Have you ever tried playing an epic level Wizard? Have you ever really contemplated the power available to those people? There's no Reason, not one, not a single one, that each of them shouldn't be trying to rid the world of all evil, or completely conquer it. Magic that hides alignment can easily be seen and dispelled, magic that tries to make you anonymous can be detected, ect. ect. there's no reason.
Dark Wizard 09-15-06, 01:03 AM	I don't underplay the power of the iconic NPCs and the various epic characters (as unfortunately inflated as I think they are due to years of power creep and translations through two D&D editions). However, such power does require responsibility, even from those NPCs who are not so nice. Despite superficially appearing to be stark black and white, FR has a humanist element to it, which doesn't always make it into the sourcebooks or novels. People with this sort of power have the ability to do more than just toss a few 9th level spells around. They represent a lot more than whatever set of numbers and powers in their stat blocks. They can influence people, nations, policies, religions, thoughts. If the characters are not careful and interfere too much, they risk becoming symbols, often times for other people who don't understand the big picture and end up doing very stupid things. Its somewhat like Dune, when Paul Maud'Dib used his powers and the religiously motivated Fremen to avenge his father and take the throne. He sparked a bloody centuries long crusade that killed countless numbers of people. Despite being near omnipotent (including clairsentience), he couldn't stop it, the crusade had become bigger than him. And we've seen this sort of thing happen in history many times, when an idea that seems good to some people is seized up and acted upon, things can get out of control. As for people not defending their home turf when it's threatened. I'm sure Elminster or Khelban did help in some capacity when their local areas were under attack. Khelban participated in defending Waterdeep from Sahaugin. He even came to Everaska's aid when Shade returned and stirred up the Phaerimm. Elminster went against the Zhents during the Time of Troubles. And for the instances where they didn't do anything at all, then maybe they did have valids reasons to be away. Afterall, most police officers or military personnel don't patrol the streets when they're not on duty. Even those that do, can't do it for 24 hours a day. People do need rest, they do need time to take care of their own affairs, they need recreation, they aren't machines, even powerful fantasy characters.
Ripe 09-15-06, 02:43 AM	... Is that seriously how you play your games? "Lord Evil makes a full attack, and kills the fighter. That's two out of three party members down in two rounds." Wizard: "Hell. The only good spell I have left is Greater Dispel." *Casts* "Okay, after Evil's buffs go down, Local High Level NPC teleports in and Metor Strikes him. He'd been scrying on you all along and just waiting for that moment. He ressurects you all and teleports home." ... I'd rather eat my character sheet than be upstaged that often/blatantly. No, PC's in my game allways face challanges that they can overcome [some are easier to overcome, some are more difficult], but they are allways capable of winning. I'd never face my PC's against opponent they cannot defeat. And I would especially not faced them against opponent who could kill 2 out of 3 in 2 rounds [any DM who do that had no bussiness being DM]. But if my PC's do some stupid mistake during encounter that greatlly diminish their chances of survival, I had no problems with killing them. And that was explanation as to why some High Level NPC would use PC's help in defeating some local BBEG instead of going after BBEG himself [thus making PC's unnecessary]. And take note that only good NPC's would bother with raising PC's from the dead. Neutral ones would just left them for dead.
Raelan_Harpell 09-15-06, 07:55 AM	Really though, despite all the excuses, there's really no good reason that Elminster/the other Myriad high level NPcs don't do anything. It's ridiculous, and stupid. Have you ever tried playing an epic level Wizard? Have you ever really contemplated the power available to those people? There's no Reason, not one, not a single one, that each of them shouldn't be trying to rid the world of all evil, or completely conquer it. And you think NPCs aren't doing just that? There are as many (or more) high level evil NPCs than there are high level good NPCs. Elminster is too busy dealing with them to have time to do everything else, too. That's the thing - in the Realms, there isn't just one main set of heroes or one main set of bad guys; there are thousands of both. For instance, say the Zhentarim have hatched a plan to replace Lord Theremen Ulath of Deepingdale with a greater doppleganger loyal to the Zhents. Now, you could wonder "Why hasn't Elminster already taken care of this?", but you'd be missing several very key points. First, Elminster or has to [i]know about the plot in the first place. Last I checked, Chosen of Mystra aren't omniscient. Second, even if he knew about it, he may simply have no opportunity to pursue it; he may be busy foiling a Twisted Rune plan to mind control the leaders of the Flaming Fist mercenary company, or a plot by the Red Wizards to sell magical items that covertly nullify wards against scrying and divination around the bearer in addition to their other properties, or a Shadovar machination involving the pillage of the elven tombs in the Vale of Lost Voices by unsuspecting lackeys, or.... And just think - the published evil NPCs and power groups are only the tip of the iceberg; the more cunning and sneaky villains never even get noticed in the first place. EDIT: One more point; just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do something, or even that you want to do something at all. Heroes need vacations and time spent living life like everyone else. Someone who's just spent the last five years crusading against the Church of Shar without a break is going to want some time off, time wherein they'll only be roused to action if they have no other choice; even heroes get burnt out and need to take some time for themselves. Magic that hides alignment can easily be seen and dispelled, magic that tries to make you anonymous can be detected, ect. ect. there's no reason. I'm sorry, I'm not understanding what this has to do with the topic at hand.
Derren S. 09-15-06, 11:47 AM	And you think NPCs aren't doing just that? There are as many (or more) high level evil NPCs than there are high level good NPCs. As I said before I would like to see a proof for that. Or even if there are more evil NPCs in the 3.X published material then good ones.
The Ubbergeek 09-15-06, 11:53 AM	Not even need for that. It's logic, philosophy - Evil is easier... So easy to fall...
GothicDan 09-15-06, 12:37 PM	As I said before I would like to see a proof for that. Or even if there are more evil NPCs in the 3.X published material then good ones. And that's precisely what I meant... You want ONLY 3.X sources when 2E ones are still valid. And you want proof of EVERY SINGLE statement, usually numerically, when general statements from authors and designers should suffice.
Derren S. 09-15-06, 12:48 PM	If you have time you can of course include the 2nd Ed. NPCs too. And designers and especially authors can say much, but in the end the source books count and when they present a different picture than what the designers say they overrule them.
Ripe 09-15-06, 01:32 PM	You may find list of 2nd edition NPC's from allmost all the published material on Kuje's homepage here (http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/) so see for yourself which NPC's are in majority. As for Designers vs. Sourcebooks, everything that Ed Greenwood says is cannon UNLESS overruled by LATER published source [so Ed overrules previously published material].
GothicDan 09-15-06, 01:52 PM	Of course, Derren PERSONALLY doesn't view Ed's words like that, even though his contract with WotC themselves says it. And there's a vast difference between contradictory information and information that is left out and augmented by designers/authors later.
Derren S. 09-15-06, 02:35 PM	Ok, I counted them. 3Ed only: Evil: 107 Neutral 75 or 76 Good 85 2nd Edition Good 2350 Neutral 1699 Evil 1592 (And I removed duplicates in favor of evil)
Issabella 09-15-06, 02:52 PM	MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. It checked the super powers in the real world and I see no reason why it would not apply to this one. I imagine many of the high level wizards and clerics of the world spend a good deal of their daily efforts scrying on their enemies and diving in the future. I know I would if capable of it. Imagine it this way. Elminster is involved in a long hard fight to stop a cult of the dragon dracolich from sinking a sembian ship carrying pilgrims to a holy site. Pausing catching his breath, damage and inventoring his spent spells. Quickly his senses tingle as he feels scrying fingers combing the area. A quick grasp of fear shakes his ancient heart as Ssaz Tam and a circle of red wizards teleport in to take advantage of his battle exhausted state. Or the flip side its easy to pcture Kelban Blackstaff scrying and waiting for a chance to smash down Fzoul if he is weakened through direct action. In a high level (Non FR) game recently its frequently the problem for the major powers. The stronger they were the less freedom to act they had. Too many enemies were watching each other for a moment f weakness. None had made it to that level of power with recklessness and were loath to risk all they had accomplished. So freqently they worked through pawns, knights, players. At lower levels we worked "bellow the radar" so to speak.
GothicDan 09-15-06, 05:12 PM	Ok, I counted them. 3Ed only: Evil: 107 Neutral 75 or 76 Good 85 2nd Edition Good 2350 Neutral 1699 Evil 1592 (And I removed duplicates in favor of evil) Pretty realistic to me, considering too many evil people would mean that the population as a whole would probably be decreasing. I would say that your 'average' person in real life is Good or Neutral; Evil people exist for sure, just more rarely. Did you look specifically at the high level NPCs?
Riodrian 09-15-06, 05:44 PM	I still beleive if Elminster took care of everything, people would start seeing him as a tyrant of sorts. People would lose faith in their governments because Elminster saved the people instead of the king and his trusty band of locals. The Realms would have NO heroes because Elminster and his friends did it all. They would all end up shopkeepers, farmers, or sheep-herders. And what's the world to do if ELminster and friends fall? Depend on the complacent sheep-farmers? I see non-interference as allowing heroes to rise to ensure the future of the Realms. It allows the "average joe" to take pride in his accomplishments and countries to take pride in defending themselves. Without depending on the help of an "Uber-NPC".
Dark Wizard 09-15-06, 06:46 PM	I still beleive if Elminster took care of everything, people would start seeing him as a tyrant of sorts. He believes that himself (he's CG remember, he shouldn't enforce his believes too harshly on others), which is why he and others like him meddle, but do so carefully. (see The Concerns of the Mighty, page 84, sidebar, FRCS 3e.) A lot of people dismiss the statement in the sidebar. Though I don't blame tham all that much, they're the words of a crazy mage who has lived too long and seen too much. ;)
wolfdog0929 09-16-06, 04:17 AM	Thier is any number of useful traps & plots you can snag them with inclouding having Elminster doing it from behind the scenes. He is getting old and has alredy mentioned to several other people in books about him retiring and letting the realms defended itself or usually asures people everything will balance out. You also have to figure in the Red Wizards, the Cult of the Dragon, the Shadow Thieves and The Zhents that also might not want the PC's to be that powerful and still live fearing its only a matter of time before they interfear with thier plans. You also have the underdark and other planes of existance that they can be slide to with a wish if they get to much to handle. More than likely though the only firgure in the realms that would take notice would in my opinion be Khelban Blackstaff an with him at least 2 or 3 of the 7sisters. Plus if they are afraid of Elminster eventually knocking on thier door they might go after him, if they do that you have the 6 of 7 sisters, Khelban and namely The Symbul after them if they so so.
Derren S. 09-16-06, 04:31 AM	Pretty realistic to me, considering too many evil people would mean that the population as a whole would probably be decreasing. I would say that your 'average' person in real life is Good or Neutral; Evil people exist for sure, just more rarely. Did you look specifically at the high level NPCs? I counted all NPCs no matter what level, but if youw ant I can limit it to only high level characters. Just tell me what you consider high level in 2nd Edition.
GothicDan 09-16-06, 02:53 PM	Let's go with 18th+.
Derren S. 09-16-06, 03:08 PM	That reduces the list quite a bit. Good: 169 Neutral: 125 Evil: 146 While the ratio is more "evil heavy" then before there is still no indication that there are (a lot) more evil NPCs in the Realms then good ones. And isn't it rather ironic that the 3.Ed census supports your point better than the 2.Ed one ;)?
GothicDan 09-16-06, 03:14 PM	I suppose I was looking primarily on the archmage side of things, myself. And, of course, there's always the fact that the designers say that there's a lot more evil than is printed, too, because FR was specifically made to NOT show all of the 'evil plots and organizations' active within it, so that DMs could do that in their own campaigns. And it's not ironic at all. 3E has done a lot to blow evil out of proportion. And... It seems pretty darned even, if you ask me. So, what's your argument, exactly? Where's this overwhelming good power in FR?
The Ubbergeek 09-16-06, 04:13 PM	3E have not inflated evil - they just returned the balance more egal at least, when the good side was quite strong in the second edition - Ed even admitted, TSR's 'evil must be retrained' policy and al. Simply a matter of perception.
GothicDan 09-16-06, 04:17 PM	In 2E, the Evil was always there, just not as effective due to TSR's code of ethics. 3E over-inflated it. Specifically, I'm thinking of the whole Shade incident, which I hate in about 150 different ways.
The Ubbergeek 09-16-06, 04:24 PM	Eh well, it have it's logic and coolness. It was hidden and all.... Evil was not conflated, the pendulum of cosmic balance just returned to a bit darker time. *shrugs*
Karsus the Mad 09-16-06, 06:02 PM	Really though, despite all the excuses, there's really no good reason that Elminster/the other Myriad high level NPcs don't do anything. It's ridiculous, and stupid. The answer is rather simple. If El or any of the other high level npcs did all the work, then you've wasted all the money you've ever spent on FR gaming products because you'd have absolutely nothing to do during a gaming session. Now does that really sound like fun? ;)
BrianCritchley 09-16-06, 08:20 PM	another thing to remember is that you have a lot more "power" in the evil NOPCs then msot good NPCs. the Good NPCs, Mostly, lack a lot of political power, (often by their own choice mind ya. there's evidance to suggest both elminister and storm for example posesses relitivly powerful titles in Cormyr for instance) of the chosen only 2 activly rule, (one COULD expand that list to 4 considering the influance khelbhan and Laerual have in waterdeep. for a variaty of reasons, such as the fact that Khelbhan is not the open Lord etc as well as Khelbhans current status I keep it simply to Allustral and the Symbul) the high level evil NPCs of course useally seak power, and as such often have considerable political power. Szass Tamm of Thay, Manshoon, Fzoul Chembryl, The Princes of Shade. another angle as well is the matter of immortality, it's a LOT harder to cheat death when your not willing to embrace undeath, and 99% of all undead are evil, thus evil NPCs on average may in the case of Liches they can simply outlast the mortal heros who defeat em. heros defeat szass tam, well sadly they didn't find his phalactry so he returns later to bedevil another set of heros. the company of 8 who defeated Sammanester for example.. where any of them alive to oppose sammanester in the year of rogue dragons?
BrennonGoldeye 09-16-06, 08:26 PM	The answer is rather simple. If El or any of the other high level npcs did all the work, then you've wasted all the money you've ever spent on FR gaming products because you'd have absolutely nothing to do during a gaming session. Now does that really sound like fun? ;) Karsus, you should have been in advertising. No I'm serious. How much damage can you do with a billboard? Wait(narrowly makes will save), um nevermind. Go big K!
Sapp 09-16-06, 08:47 PM	Well, this is going nowhere fast. Let me help the devils' side explain their points. What sense of accomplishment did you get from defeating Mephistopheles in The Hordes of the Underdark? Wouldn't it have been more convincing that you saved the world if the story happened in a setting other than the Realms? What happened to Halaster when Mephistopheles took ran loose in the Underdark? He was there in the beginning, doing all sorts of crazy stuff. Cloning himself. Fooling extremely powerful Drow for kicks. Pulling mountains through mirrors. Then he just disappears when his home is assaulted by an Archdevil weaker than himself? Right. He's insane! How could I forget. Heh.
Sapp 09-16-06, 08:55 PM	Really though, despite all the excuses, there's really no good reason that Elminster/the other Myriad high level NPcs don't do anything. It's ridiculous, and stupid. Have you ever tried playing an epic level Wizard? Have you ever really contemplated the power available to those people? There's no Reason, not one, not a single one, that each of them shouldn't be trying to rid the world of all evil, or completely conquer it. Magic that hides alignment can easily be seen and dispelled, magic that tries to make you anonymous can be detected, ect. ect. there's no reason. I suppose my best explanation would be that at a certain point, they just stopped caring. They don't do anything because if they save one village, another one is burned down. Desensitization starts to kick in after a while. Oh, I also like the Cold War analogy that Ripe confirmed. I'd be happy with those compromises, and I keep trying to ignore all the sourcebooks and novels that actively try to prove me wrong! But I won't hold bad novels and characterizations against the setting itself.
Alac Luin 09-16-06, 10:51 PM	There's no Reason, not one, not a single one, that each of them shouldn't be trying to rid the world of all evil, or completely conquer it. For risk of becomeing that which they most hate.
The Ubbergeek 09-16-06, 11:32 PM	For risk of becomeing that which they most hate. Let us never forget the fate of the last King-Priest of Ishtar...
Sapp 09-16-06, 11:33 PM	Let us never forget the fate of the last King-Priest of Ishtar... Karsus would be a more appropriate example for the Forgotten Realms setting.
Aaron L 09-17-06, 08:51 PM	Elmisnster is off doing somethng else to save the world at the moment. Do you really think there is only one Realms threatening thing going on at any one time that every Good guy can focus all thier attention on all at once? There are probably dozens if not hundreds of plots and schemes and mad wizards running around vaporizing people in the Realms every single day, an everyoneiss off doing thier part to keep the place safe. That, and everything that Elminster does, he [robably has a few dozen Evil wizards and sorcerers and Zhents actively working to undo it, lurking in wait til his attention has to shift to a more urgent threat, and then they go back in and screw things up. Think of it like Quantum Leap and the Evil Leaper. For all the Good that Sam did, there was that Evil lady jumping around as well, working to put wrong what once went right. Ive heard so many people complain that there isnt anything to do in the Realms because Elminster should be taking care of every threat to anyone and everyone, major and minor, and it makes me really sick anymore to see how either limited peoples imaginatins and minds are, or how hellbent they are on hating the Realms that they just shut off thier brains and jump on the bandwagon and join the mindless masses screaming about Elminster without giving it a bit of thought. "Why is there war, death, or poverty in the Forgotten Realms when they have Elminster?!" they cry. Well, why is there war, death, and poverty on Earth when we have all the technology that we do? People are greedy, no matter how much Good you do there will always be more people doing selfish and Evul things, and some will be actively blocking your atempts to help people. Elminster and the Seven Sisters and all those other guys are effectively fighting an uphull battle against 100 times there number of bad guys who are actively blocking every attempt they make to do Good, an who go in and undo anything they do manage to accomplish as soon as they get the chance. So, in short, there is no problem. There are only people who see a list of Epic level stats attached to Elminster, make the perfectly (il)logical conclusion that only the Good guys have stats like those, and then take the idiotic leap right to thinking that Elminster should be able to solve every problem in the world, everyday, all by himself.
Karsus the Mad 09-18-06, 05:39 PM	So, in short, there is no problem. There are only people who see a list of Epic level stats attached to Elminster, make the perfectly (il)logical conclusion that only the Good guys have stats like those, and then take the idiotic leap right to thinking that Elminster should be able to solve every problem in the world, everyday, all by himself. :w00t:
Derren S. 09-18-06, 05:44 PM	There are probably dozens if not hundreds of plots and schemes and mad wizards running around vaporizing people in the Realms every single day, an everyoneiss off doing thier part to keep the place safe. You have read too many Marvel comics. This amount of world/country/city destroying plot at any given time is laughable. It would mean that the FR would be in utter chaos or has alredy been destroyed thrice.
Sapp 09-18-06, 06:39 PM	So, in short, there is no problem. There are only people who see a list of Epic level stats attached to Elminster, make the perfectly (il)logical conclusion that only the Good guys have stats like those, and then take the idiotic leap right to thinking that Elminster should be able to solve every problem in the world, everyday, all by himself. I'm not going to complain about your sentiment, but the delivery comes off as being one-sided and presumptuous as you make the FR critics out to be. I have known FR and have been using it for a while now (since it has been the most heavily supported of all D&D settings), and I do think the 'Epickiness' of the setting can be absurd. I didn't take an 'idiotic leap' to that conclusion either. Elminster and friends are too busy solving the world's OTHER problems! The problem with with this idea is that it's assuming something was enough of a challenge that a CR 30+ NPC would have his hands full for more than just a few days at a time. And with the existence of teleport and restoration we can practically factor out overhead costs of travel and rest. They would literally be fighting or plotting 100% of the time against world-shattering problems. Fine. However, if their hands are full ALL of the time, then that would mean that the Realms are constantly on the verge of Armageddon. Constant floods of Pit Fiends and/or Balors. Archfiends would be stepping into the Prime daily. (The Justice League is too busy against Asmodeus to deal with Mephistopheles today. Apologies to the citizens of Waterdeep.) That may be fine and dandy, but none of the Realms' culture seems to reflect that and no mention of constant fear or being on the verge of global destruction. And lots of us aren't just "seeing a list of Epic level stats attached to Elminster, and making idiotic assumptions". You give far too little credit to your opponents in the debate. How about this twist on your view: "Lots of us are seeing a list of Epic level stats attached to several NPCs, more than even stats of non-Epic level ones. We then see new published material that consistently throws CR 30+ challenges with very little fluff or explanation behind them. Very little history. This is rather surprising considering how IMPORTANT those NPCs must be if so much space is devoted to them in the FRCS, right? (Or should we be forced to read the novels to give a damn about the NPCs in the FRCS?) "We then see books in which we have scenarios similar to this one: we have Aumvar, a CR 34 or so lich... and some pages later, the Elder Evils (God-slayers, and world-gorgers), all at CR 26 or below. Some pages later, we have Malkizid (a mere fallen angel), also strong enough to defeat the Elder Evils. ... And we're left in the dust, thinking, Epic levels don't get much respect in the Realms... probably because those who use the Realms 'obviously' don't care about consistency or coherence. Event he NPCs and monsters, supposedly some of the most attractive features of the Realms, are treated like dirt." We don't "make the 'perfectly (il)logical conclusion' that only the Good guys have stats like those, and then take the idiotic leap right to thinking that Elminster should be able to solve every problem in the world, everyday, all by himself." We DO "make the very logical assumption that too many Guys and Girls (of ALL alignments) have stats like those. Very high on CR. Very low on content and careful thought. Very useless to many serious/mature players. Very space-consuming (those pages could have been so much better spent). Generally a waste of resources." With that being said, I can understand how some of the problems of the setting came around with the advent of 3rd Edition. I was just trying to explain how some of the "simple answers" given on behalf of FR aren't fool proof, and don't dismiss some of the contentions of FR critics. We're not all ranting and raving idiots. EDIT: Ok... let me correct myself: "Ranting and raving? Maybe. Idiots? No... and I happen to be the most modest person in the world." That said, one of the many gripes I have came along when they tried to flesh out the characters and make them more realistic. They ended up making the characters LESS realistic. I actually remember a time when Elminster was just some guy that came around helping adventurers. "He might be a god of some sort." Sure, we made fun of him once in a while, for being a Gandalf clone (Look at his older pictures! Haha.) When it came down to it, he DID fight. And he DID get down and dirty with fiends such as Gothmenes the Balor (and the graphic for that was reminiscent of Gandalf and the Balrog), because the Realms depended on it, and his life depended on it. He didn't need hundreds of excuses for why he wasn't around. It made more sense back then when a level 34 character didn't need to kill thousands of Balors at once to gain a level. He needed to kill 5 or 6, and even that was challenging for a level 34.
Frida 09-18-06, 07:00 PM	Because in our forgotten realms campaign, Elminster is a smelly old drunk who sits all day in a tavern telling storys of what a "mighty" wizard he is. Apparently he suffers from the delusion that some gal named Mystra had the hots for him and bestowed him great power. So Elminster is far to busy searching for dropped coins for his next drink to save anyone from anything:P
Dark Wizard 09-18-06, 07:36 PM	Yup, despite being a Realms fans and someone who throws in a word every now and then to try to defend the "epicness" in the Realms, even I have to say they dropped the ball on the potential that the 3e transition could have been. It could have been the chance to put Elminster back down into a more workable level, his original, original 26th level wizard sounds more ideal than the level 1/2/3/29 & template overinflated CR 39 beast that he isn't. The scales of power are different, unlike 2e, levels 10-20 actually increase many of the characters abilities. The things he could do at level 29 in 2e he probably could do several levels earlier in 3e. And they still didn't undo the ToT and Ao, or explain Bane's return or link the Thunder Blessing with lifting of dwarven class restrictions, explain the cosmology change, etc. Realms fans hated the stats for the Champions of Ruin critters as much if not more so than non-Realms fans. The new edition hasn't been easy for FR, and I feel it still struggles with it at times. With that said, while many of the defenses for the NPCs of the Realms are not flawless, the same can be said of the criticisms. So the same arguments crop up every few months when another person criticizes and another person counters and so on.
BrianCritchley 09-19-06, 12:10 AM	The problem with with this idea is that it's assuming something was enough of a challenge that a CR 30+ NPC would have his hands full for more than just a few days at a time not really, even a plot created by a much lower level character can take some time to resolve. especially if it's tricky, remember not everything is about brute force. sometimes you gotta use your head. an excellent example would be the Acabus Affair (and yes I know elminister wasn't involved in that.. or if he was he was quiet eneugh not to get any novel mention) Elminister could have shown up and he'd be as useless as a 1st level wizard in solving the problem by brute force. Investigations take time, read the elminister books and you'll find Elminister never solves a problem by going in and tossing a fireball at the nearest bad guy.
Sapp 09-19-06, 01:37 AM	I'm not talking about fireball or other lame-brained solutions (which mages of Elminster's intelligence wouldn't be caught dead using). 3rd Edition rules make it very easy to Discern Location, scry, and greater teleport. To prevent that kind of easy abuse, the enemies need forbiddance and perhaps some private sanctums and sequesters as well. More often than not, these safeguards (particularly forbiddance) kill lower level adventurers outright and can't be dispelled by those lower level adventurers. How complicated was this "Acabus Affair"? I'm not familiar enough with it.
Mirashira 09-19-06, 03:02 PM	i guess it will be a mix of all aspects that keeps Elminster/any other high level NPC off his hometown - the evil guys and the good guys are both battling each other, and no side will win (at least thats intended) in the long run - so he has to undo some other evil things that might be more dangerous (might not be saving all faerun, but helping harpers or other good guys changing wrongs of more importance) - elminster might have DONE something more important, now his hometown is under attack and hes out of power ....(he may help, but his power is limited - or exhaustet for the day) - elminster might not care because he KNOWS that there will be other people he can rely on will deal with those orcs - why should he risk his life when he KNOWS there is no actual threat ... - elminster exactly knows that he cannot rescue all innocents in the world - and even if he and all the other chosens would work 24/7 they are not omnipotent as mentioned earlier (Storm gave some good insight to an Elven Sorceror in a novel) - of course there is not the all-threatening-evil that will vaporize all faerun if elminster will not show up, but perhaps exactly at this day (when his hometown is under attack, perhaps that is even part of the plan) it shows up and he has to fight it in the end its just up to the DM how often PCs will have the chance to interact with high ranking npcs such as the chosen anyway - in my group we have some contact with dove and alustriel, but thats it (our highest character is 18, lowest 14) So as a DM - you actually let your players ask you that kind of nonsense ? my answer would be some world threatening thing he had to take care of and of course his gratefulness to the heroes who successfully saved the city while he was busy. other question : would you, as a PC who knows the power of Elminster, actually have the cockiness to ask him why he didn't show up ? what if he tells you that he had a date with the lady in the woods - or some other nice girl ? why can he do something like that while his city is torn apart ? answer : because he CAN . point just my 2 cents :)
Sapp 09-19-06, 04:00 PM	No, of course the PCs don't ASK. It's a matter of efficiency. At low levels, why send PCs to retrieve an item when it could literally take under a minute for yourself to get it? Let the PCs just brew your coffee and warm your seat for you. When higher levels arrive, then the PCs start to wonder, "Hey, now that we're high level, we could have done those earlier quests in 3-4 rounds! Literally!" "Yeah, so why were we hired by that other guy to do that quest?" Suspension of disbelief ends here. Don't get me wrong, I found my own way to deal with this, I'm just saying, that it's not as easy to make sense out of as most FR fans seem to think it is, and that not all of us are morons who can't figure out how to deal with the problems. Some answers are immediately obvious: kill all of the NPCs and most of the gods off (Mystra and Ao in particular).
The Simbul 09-19-06, 05:18 PM	Its not metagaming. It is logical. When a, for example, city is threatened the question "Why do the powerfull people living in that city don't do something against that and instead we, which are at constant risk of dieing and failing to stop the enemy have to?"And this is not a condition that is unique to the Forgotten Realms. The typical metropolis in D&D has the following high level NPCs; Ftr20, Rog20, Brd18, Clr18, Ftr18, Rog18, Brb16, Brd16, Clr16, Drd16, Ftr16, Mnk16, Rog16, Sor16, Wiz16, Brb15, Brd15, Clr15, Drd15, Ftr15, Mnk15, Pal15, Rgr15, Sor15, Wiz15, Brb14, Mnk14, Pal14 (2), Rgr14 (2), Rog14, Sor14, Wiz14, Brb13, Brd13, Clr13, Drd13, Mnk 13, Pal13, Rgr13, Sor13, Wiz13 Any of the above NPCs could save the city from the horde of Orcs that the party of 9th level PCs were hired to dispatch, yet they all seemingly have better things to do, and all have to be explained out of the story. The fact that Elminster has a CR of 39 and has a good alignment is in no way different than any of the other un-named NPCs whose CRs are 8 points above the adventure's encounter levels, but who nonetheless are not available to lend aid to the PCs.
The Simbul 09-19-06, 05:20 PM	El needs at least 8 hours sleep a day. He's getinng old, and spends more time in the bathroom. Lets put this at about 3 hours a day. He needs to eat, one hour per meal, another 3 hours. Watch the red wizard's portals, 2 hours a day... We are running out of time that he can do anything. :)While Elminster is generally busy, most of the above isnt correct. He doesnt need any sleep. At best, he needs 8 hours of non-activity to regain his arcane spells, and in the general course of a day he isnt going to exhaust very many of them given that many of his activities involve political meddling, item creation, or the like. CR 39 encounters do no swoop down onto Elminster's Tower every day. His age has no bearing on his physiology, as he is immune to aging. As for using the bathroom, that assumes that he actually eats and drinks to begin with. The silver fire can allow a Chosen to survive up to 7 days without food or drink once per tenday. A character can go up to three days without food or water, and with a CON of 23+, most of the Chosen dont have to worry about whatever pains would come with 3 days of not eating or drinking. Therefore, there is no reason for any of them to ever eat at all, unless they are at a party and wish to be polite. As for watching the portals of the Red Wizards, that can be accomplished with a watchware spell made permanent with a wish (or using wish to add a watchware-like property to the portals), combined with a permanent spell to mask the added magical properties/effects (such as a greater variant version of Nystul's magical aura). Given that it takes about 100 days to craft a new portal, and about two standard actions to complete the tampering noted above, I imagine the Chosen keep well ahead of the Red Wizards without much lost time on their part.
Ripe 09-19-06, 06:44 PM	No, of course the PCs don't ASK. It's a matter of efficiency. At low levels, why send PCs to retrieve an item when it could literally take under a minute for yourself to get it? Let the PCs just brew your coffee and warm your seat for you. When higher levels arrive, then the PCs start to wonder, "Hey, now that we're high level, we could have done those earlier quests in 3-4 rounds! Literally!" "Yeah, so why were we hired by that other guy to do that quest?" Suspension of disbelief ends here. ... Are you telling me that this does not happen in EVERY game setting [Eberron included]? At every level of play [doesn't matter if you're level 1 or 15]? Not to mention that I'd allready given my, rather cynical explanation in one earlier post. To sum it up: Evil NPC's use many minions to do small tasks and nobody find that weird, illogical or requiring suspension of disbelief [it even said in DMG on page 104 discussing villains, "Use lackeys"]. So why shouldn't all those good and neutral NPC's also use lackeys to do small tasks? Why should they do everything by themselves? Is it just because that would make PC's their lackeys and minions? And if it would, so what? PC's are important to your adventure, not the game setting. From in-game point of wiev of average NPC, PC's are no different from any other NPC living in that setting [again, DMG page 103]. No NPC would treat PC's different because they are PC's. They would treat them different based on PC's actions and acomplishments. Sure, high level NPC's are different issue alltogether, but why should they treat PC's any different than any other NPC of their level? Just because they are PC's? Talk about suspension of disbelief. I particulary like this quote from DMG, page 103: "The vast majority of the folk don't care about the PC's unless the PC's have reached the point where they are saving the world. Even then, most people probably don't know about them."
Karsus the Mad 09-19-06, 06:44 PM	I'm not talking about fireball or other lame-brained solutions (which mages of Elminster's intelligence wouldn't be caught dead using). Funny enough I recall El using specifically a fireball at a magefair:P A handful of medium to high level NPCs in a world of tens of millions. I guess Earth having a handful of billionares yet millions of people starving or homeless is also not possible:rolleyes: Why don't they solve all the problems? Or wait, Mother Teresa could have helped everyone in trouble..... Or the Red Cross can provide medical help for everyone who needs it.... It's neither stupid or illogical to realize that one person, regardless of intent or personal power, can't help everyone or solve all problems. Especially someone like El who is neither all powerful or all knowing, or even anywhere near to be considered as such.
Sapp 09-19-06, 07:02 PM	Are you telling me that this does not happen in EVERY game setting [Eberron included]? At every level of play [doesn't matter if you're level 1 or 15]? Keep in mind the context of the discussion. We were discussing using Elminster as a quest-giver. Having Elminster handing out a quest to low level PCs is most definitely NOT like having King Boranel ir'Wynarn giving a quest to the PCs. PCs will wonder why Elminster didn't spend the 30 seconds it would have taken him to retrieve whatever "dangerously" guarded item for him. PCs won't think twice, no matter what level, why King Boranel would request the heroes to retrieve a dangerously guarded item for him. Not to mention that I'd allready given my, rather cynical explanation in one earlier post. To sum it up: Evil NPC's use many minions to do small tasks and nobody find that weird, illogical or requiring suspension of disbelief [it even said in DMG on page 104 discussing villains, "Use lackeys"]. So why shouldn't all those good and neutral NPC's also use lackeys to do small tasks? Why should they do everything by themselves? Villains use lackeys to do mundane tasks, just as Elminster might ask the PCs to brew him some coffee and warm his seat for him as he goes hunting, instead of asking the PCs to hunt for him (which might take hours or even days). It's a matter of expediency. Is it just because that would make PC's their lackeys and minions? And if it would, so what? PC's are important to your adventure, not the game setting. From in-game point of wiev of average NPC, PC's are no different from any other NPC living in that setting [again, DMG page 103]. No NPC would treat PC's different because they are PC's. They would treat them different based on PC's actions and acomplishments. Sure, high level NPC's are different issue alltogether, but why should they treat PC's any different than any other NPC of their level? Just because they are PC's? Talk about suspension of disbelief. I particulary like this quote from DMG, page 103: "The vast majority of the folk don't care about the PC's unless the PC's have reached the point where they are saving the world. Even then, most people probably don't know about them."
Sapp 09-19-06, 07:13 PM	Funny enough I recall El using specifically a fireball at a magefair:P I wouldn't see that as the same kind of solution as I was referring to. Also, I was responding to a post in which someone implied that fireball was an actual way to solve a quest on its own. For the most basic quests, higher level mages wouldn't need to think twice. Divination and teleportation. End of quest. A handful of medium to high level NPCs in a world of tens of millions. I guess Earth having a handful of billionares yet millions of people starving or homeless is also not possible:rolleyes: Why don't they solve all the problems? Or wait, Mother Teresa could have helped everyone in trouble..... Or the Red Cross can provide medical help for everyone who needs it.... It's neither stupid or illogical to realize that one person, regardless of intent or personal power, can't help everyone or solve all problems. Especially someone like El who is neither all powerful or all knowing, or even anywhere near to be considered as such. That's not the proper analogy. Here's a better one. The Earth has a handful of billionaires yet millions of people looking for a job: Why doesn't everyone simply get hired? Sure we have servants that help open doors for the billionaires, and clean their houses, and all sorts of mundane tasks. However, Elminster, asking PCs to do any important task that could take himself 30 seconds to do is the equivalent of a CEO asking a high school dropout to manage his company's finances.
Sapp 09-19-06, 07:16 PM	And for the record, let me repeat again that I HAVE thought about the situation and HAVE come up with solutions of my own: 1. Either the Epic NPCs never bother with the PCs (and the quests come from lower level leaders), or none of the Epic NPCs exist, or they are actually much lower level than listed in the FRCS or other sourcebooks. Also, lot of the gods of the Faerunian Pantheon have been slain by Shar and Tempus, whose children will take the place of those murdered gods (and eventually overthrow Ao). 2. If Elminster EVER gives an 'important' task to the PCs, it's probably not important. He's probably just training the PCs to take his place. Same with ANY Epic NPCs that request PCs to do something he/she could do himself in literally half a minute. Maybe Elmister predicted the future... and the PCs have some sort of 'spark' in them. Simply put, as you implied yourself, nothing truly important for the survival of the world (or even a country) until into the Epic levels.
Dark Wizard 09-19-06, 08:21 PM	There are billionaires in the world, but they still need a lot of people to do rather important tasks. They run companies that need lesser billionaires and some millionaires to run the executive board and on down. They need middle class white collar people to form the bulk of their company (middle management, technicians, etc.), and depending on the industry, a good number of good old fashion blue collar people as well. For example, Bill Gates and his fellows have the know how to actually write OS's themselves, but they hire hundreds of highly trained programmers to do it. Even then, with all those hundreds of programmers, Microsoft products still have flaws and require constant monitoring and updating. If Bill Gates and his closest billionaire friends wrote up a modern computer program, there would likely be more flaws due to lack of good beta testing. Second example, Donald Trump has apprentices. :D Okay, that last one is less applicable, but Trump still has people working for him that help run his company.
Fanatic66 09-19-06, 08:31 PM	This question is what part of what made me leave the Realms. If there are dozens of epic-level mages running around you have to wonder the motives of an average adventuer. Why should I save the world when one of the Chosens can stop the evil lich's world shattering plan for domination. There are only so many epic evil plots at once. The Chosen can't be that busy. -Fanatic66
GothicDan 09-19-06, 08:50 PM	Yes, they can. And often are. It's already been stated in this thread that there really aren't many more high-level Good characters than Evil ones, and the highest CR NPCs around are non-good (Shoon, Shade, Aumvor, Inferno, Dargothoth, Tchazzar, Larloch, Rhaungaun, etc.). The only "good" NPCs around of approximately equivalent or greater CR are, for the most part, a handful of the Chosen. And CR isn't even that good of an approximation of power, considering it's been specifically pointed out that Elminster himself is not a battle-ready mage, and the fact that the Chosen of Mystra Template just isn't worth its ECL at higher levels. And they're not superheros. Sometimes they're resting or on vacation or otherwise.
Sapp 09-19-06, 09:00 PM	There are billionaires in the world, but they still need a lot of people to do rather important tasks. They run companies that need lesser billionaires and some millionaires to run the executive board and on down. They need middle class white collar people to form the bulk of their company (middle management, technicians, etc.), and depending on the industry, a good number of good old fashion blue collar people as well. For example, Bill Gates and his fellows have the know how to actually write OS's themselves, but they hire hundreds of highly trained programmers to do it. Even then, with all those hundreds of programmers, Microsoft products still have flaws and require constant monitoring and updating. If Bill Gates and his closest billionaire friends wrote up a modern computer program, there would likely be more flaws due to lack of good beta testing. Second example, Donald Trump has apprentices. :D Okay, that last one is less applicable, but Trump still has people working for him that help run his company. Let me repeat the context. I was responding to Mirashira, and we were strictly speaking about Elminster and low level parties. Elminster has no place in a game under level 11. It would be a stretch to even say he had a place in pre-Epic games. Elminster asking a party under level 10 to do anything of actual importance would be the equivalent of Bill Gates asking a high school dropout to program a critical feature of the next Windows. Hardly "highly trained professional programmers". Even those with BS degrees in computer science would be level 15-20 adventurers compared to what the high school dropouts would be most of the time. EDIT: YES, I know the irony that Bill Gates was a college dropout. He was smart and confident enough to drop out, voluntarily. Hardly the typical high school dropout I'm clearly referring to.
BrennonGoldeye 09-19-06, 09:14 PM	This question is what part of what made me leave the Realms. If there are dozens of epic-level mages running around you have to wonder the motives of an average adventuer. Their motivation would be to survive and influence the world. Create their own Dutchy or maybe found a Dynasty. Or maybe just sit around and breed more of their own. This can be all the more interesting and dangerous(and more gainful XPwise) in a world wracked by constant battles between said dozens of epic-level mages. And the 10 times that many mages only 12th level or so. Same as in other Campaigns, just with added backstory and lotsa crazy characters.:) Why should I save the world when one of the Chosens can stop the evil lich's world shattering plan for domination. There are only so many epic evil plots at once. The Chosen can't be that busy. -Fanatic66 An average adventurer it's not expected to save the world. That would be the job of Epic Mages, High-Priests, Lords, and Wyrms.:mage:
GothicDan 09-19-06, 09:29 PM	This question is what part of what made me leave the Realms. If there are dozens of epic-level mages running around you have to wonder the motives of an average adventuer. That all depends on how one personally views ambition. The fact that there's hundreds of physicists out there, and that there's been many very famous in the past, only make me strive harder to succeed in becoming one.
Dark Wizard 09-19-06, 10:11 PM	While my next example is not exactly in the same category, Gates does have a multi-billion dollar charity that works to help the poor and unforunate, especially in developing nation. The people being helped are in a vastly different class, almost another world, compared to Gates. Some billionaires could choose not to help, but some do. Certainly low level PCs won't be effective at helping Elminster complete any decently significant task he needs to get done, but it doesn't mean he can't throw them a bone to help them out, so they can better themselves, perhaps even be powerful enough to take over for him one day. I'm not talking about actively saving their butts from the fire, but giving them encouragement or subtle hints. All in disguise of course, since as far as I can tell, he doesn't reveal himself all that often, not to strangers anyway. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but it is a possibility. Though I agree, Elminster as stat'ed in the official sources is way out there in CR/levels to the point of being ineffective as a useable NPCs/game aid. At the sorts of power/levels he's at, Elminster is Elminster whether he's CR 39, Cr 29 or CR 26.
Sapp 09-19-06, 10:31 PM	Certainly low level PCs won't be effective at helping Elminster complete any decently significant task he needs to get done, but it doesn't mean he can't throw them a bone to help them out, so they can better themselves, perhaps even be powerful enough to take over for him one day. Haha. That was exactly what I was considering a few posts back. That all depends on how one personally views ambition. The fact that there's hundreds of physicists out there, and that there's been many very famous in the past, only make me strive harder to succeed in becoming one. There's a thought. It probably works for a lot of people. It doesn't really work well for me though, because it feels very "Dragonball D&D" to me, where the only purpose of life is save the world or to surpass everyone else until you can save the world. EDIT: Yes, I see the irony and will be the first to admit that the "Dragonball D&D" philosophy is the same in every setting. However, the feeling of accomplishment comes rather late with such a high power curve around... which is why I would never introduce the Epic NPCs as plot devices as they are. (I'd probably keep things disjoint.) I can understand that some people like it though.
BrianCritchley 09-20-06, 02:44 AM	the dragonball Z d&d comparison is an example of why people who ***** whine and moan about Elminister are looking at gaming wrong,... who the hell honestly plays d&d simply to outstrip the published NPCs? seriously, why the hell are you competing with elminister? this isn't some sort of competition and elminister might well ask low level PCs because they can do it without attracting the kind of attention Elminister would if he does it himself (I mean, El's power and rep is such at the point where if he gets up to get a cup of water chances are half the evil wizards in Faerun look up from their scrying pools and go "OMFG! THAT MUST BE L33T MAGIK WATER!" :) ). also if you don't like elminister.. don't use him Faerun is a big place. hell if you really don't like him KILL HIM OFF, the Chosen may be powerful but they are mortal. the novel "Blackstaff" should prove that to you, I mean let's forget elminister for a moment, why bother having adventurers at all? why don't gods just send their avatars to do everything? I mean an avatar of Mystra would kick El's ass? why bother with El at all right?
Sapp 09-20-06, 03:11 AM	Brian, In fact, I don't play to outstrip Elminster. The context is key here, especially what I was responding to. also if you don't like elminister.. don't use him Faerun is a big place. hell if you really don't like him KILL HIM OFF, the Chosen may be powerful but they are mortal. the novel "Blackstaff" should prove that to you, That's what I suggested in an earlier post that someone in my situation would do.
Ripe 09-20-06, 03:31 AM	Keep in mind the context of the discussion. We were discussing using Elminster as a quest-giver. Having Elminster handing out a quest to low level PCs is most definitely NOT like having King Boranel ir'Wynarn giving a quest to the PCs. PCs will wonder why Elminster didn't spend the 30 seconds it would have taken him to retrieve whatever "dangerously" guarded item for him. PCs won't think twice, no matter what level, why King Boranel would request the heroes to retrieve a dangerously guarded item for him. Oh, then there is simple solution: Elminster don't give quests. Which is in-tune with his character. In fact [and I'd have to check] I don't remember any single novel or TSR published adventure in which PC's were given quest from Elminster. Not to mention that 3E FRCS specifically state that Elminster "does not incourage visitors" to his home [2nd ed went even further giving description of magical signs that apear as one aproach his home]. If there is someone who give quests in Shadowdale, that's Mourngrym Amchatra who's local Lord [that quest might be suggested by Elminster, but it's Mourngrym not Elminster who hire PC's]. Of the top of my head, the only high level NPC's that gave quest to PC's is that High Priest of Waukeen in For Duty and Deity module and Maskar Wands in Marco Volo series [and that quest was to escort his nephew to Shadowdale]. Villains use lackeys to do mundane tasks, just as Elminster might ask the PCs to brew him some coffee and warm his seat for him as he goes hunting, instead of asking the PCs to hunt for him (which might take hours or even days). It's a matter of expediency. That would depend on what someone consider mundane task. To an Epic Character killing an 15th level Lich could [and most likely would] be a mundane task. It would be a great deal for any 15-17th level PC's, but to that Epic NPC it would be unimportant and mundane, something that he could do without thinking. And that is exactly the kind of jobs villains use lackeys. To do things they don't want to bother with [for whatever reason]. It's a situation similar to the one in Book one of WotSQ series: when Gromph Baenre [Div 18/Acm4] send Pharaun Mizzrym [Wiz 14/Acm3] to find out something he could easily find out himslef as Epic diviner [we latter find out exactly why Gromph did it]. He sent Pharaun on a quest so that Pharaun could act like decoy, attracting attention from rulling priestesses [and Gromph made sure priestesses know about it by intentionally botching his anti-scrying magic protections] allowing him free time to investigate the same thing himself.
Fanatic66 09-20-06, 04:49 PM	An average adventurer it's not expected to save the world. That would be the job of Epic Mages, High-Priests, Lords, and Wyrms.:mage:[/QUOTE] O mighty Elminister save us from the mighty half-fiend dragon of epicness! :help: Elminister: I'm too busy saving the world form the evil wizard clones of fiendish epicness: :dragon: villagers taste good. . .
Sapp 09-20-06, 04:54 PM	O mighty Elminister save us from the mighty half-fiend dragon of epicness! :help: Elminister: I'm too busy saving the world form the evil wizard clones of fiendish epicness: :dragon: villagers taste good. . . Well, the players might not know who Elminster is, so they can't really call on his aid. I think it's better that Elminster stays in the dark. I think Ripe think that he is arguing against me when he actually reiterated what I said in an earlier post: "Elminster don't give quests."
Fanatic66 09-20-06, 04:56 PM	Dang, I screwed up the quote.
Lycan_Hunter_Corkie 09-20-06, 08:03 PM	my view on the whole npcs getting in the way is to involve some in the adventure doing another part of it while the pc take care of theirs. but then again i generally involve the pcs in saving some or all of the world from one of the many evil schemes i plot to take over/destory the world or god/goddess. but thats just me. :plotting:
Ripe 09-21-06, 02:47 AM	Well, the players might not know who Elminster is, so they can't really call on his aid. I think it's better that Elminster stays in the dark. I think Ripe think that he is arguing against me when he actually reiterated what I said in an earlier post: "Elminster don't give quests." Oh, I know we argue the same thing. Which made me wonder several times why are we arguing in the first place. But I think that having high-level NPC's giving quests is wrong in general [not just in case of Elminster]. In my campaigns people who give quests are those in position of power [local Lords, rullers of city/state, head of church, etc.]. Sure, some of them might be high level [and some of them should be, like leaders of church], but that does not change anything.
BrianCritchley 09-21-06, 03:05 AM	well honestly I think all but a few of us are on the same page more or less in that we agree that the epic NPCs generally shouldn't be used, or at least not without a LOT of thought, we've got a few people who hate the very fact that they exist, but the fact that we can ignore em in the setting without the settling collapsing tells us something.
BrennonGoldeye 09-21-06, 07:11 AM	well honestly I think all but a few of us are on the same page more or less in that we agree that the epic NPCs generally shouldn't be used, or at least not without a LOT of thought, we've got a few people who hate the very fact that they exist, but the fact that we can ignore em in the setting without the settling collapsing tells us something. Agreed.:)
Karsus the Mad 09-21-06, 09:49 AM	Ditto
Derren S. 09-21-06, 11:08 AM	well honestly I think all but a few of us are on the same page more or less in that we agree that the epic NPCs generally shouldn't be used, or at least not without a LOT of thought, we've got a few people who hate the very fact that they exist, but the fact that we can ignore em in the setting without the settling collapsing tells us something. That is fine as long as your players are willing to close their ears and eyes and continuesly sing "everything is fine". If they are not and care for a logical world you have no other choice then to use the epic NPCs or use DBZ ridiculousness by saying "There are so many world destroying plots going on, they don't have time to take care of your world destroying plot too" (When the plot the PCs are following doesn't involve destroying the world then you also have to explain why the "only" high level NPCs in the area are also busy)
Raelan_Harpell 09-21-06, 12:33 PM	That is fine as long as your players are willing to close their ears and eyes and continuesly sing "everything is fine". If they are not and care for a logical world you have no other choice then to use the epic NPCs or use DBZ ridiculousness by saying "There are so many world destroying plots going on, they don't have time to take care of your world destroying plot too" (When the plot the PCs are following doesn't involve destroying the world then you also have to explain why the "only" high level NPCs in the area are also busy) -sigh- This thread has gotten pretty ridiculous, IMO. There are just as many evil people in the Realms as there are good, meaning that for every good adventuring party there is an evil adventuring party; moreover, the evil adventuring party is probably higher level, having taken the easy path to power rather than working for it. Even if the latter statement is not true in all cases, the basic premise still stands; that is why the good-aligned high level NPCs can't take care of everything - there are just as many evil aligned high level NPCs to stand in their way. The only part of the statement "There are so many world destroying plots going on, they don't have time to take care of your world destroying plot too" that I don't agree with is the words "world destroying". Remove them and the statement quite nicely sums the situation up.
Derren S. 09-21-06, 01:38 PM	Actually all evidence so far says that there are (a lot) more good NPCs then evil ones.
Ripe 09-21-06, 02:15 PM	Actually all evidence so far says that there are (a lot) more good NPCs then evil ones. Now that's interesting, especially considering you counted all the named FR NPC's yourself few pages ago. This are numbers you get: 3Ed only: Evil: 107 Neutral 75 or 76 Good 85 2nd Edition Good 2350 Neutral 1699 Evil 1592 And when ask to count only 18th+ 2nd ed NPC's [the ones with real power], you get this numbers: Good: 169 Neutral: 125 Evil: 146 So will you explain to me what evidence that there is alot more good than evil NPC's are you talking about? Unless you count Neutral's as Good also?
Derren S. 09-21-06, 02:27 PM	See the count of all 2nd edition NPCs? Good has about 25% (700) more NPCS then evil. That is "a lot". And when you only count the 18+ NPCs it are "only" 15% (23) more
The Ubbergeek 09-21-06, 03:45 PM	Frankly, that's ridiculous wankfest. You are now to ARGUE ABOUT THE EXACT NUMBERS OF EVERY NPC AND THEIR ALIGNEMENTS? Gee! Guys! Let's stop the effing geekfest! :mad:
Raelan_Harpell 09-21-06, 05:16 PM	"Balance" is canon in the Realms. This means that there are good NPCs to balance out evil and vice versa. Even if they're not all published, they're there.
Aaron L 09-21-06, 07:03 PM	That is fine as long as your players are willing to close their ears and eyes and continuesly sing "everything is fine". If they are not and care for a logical world you have no other choice then to use the epic NPCs or use DBZ ridiculousness by saying "There are so many world destroying plots going on, they don't have time to take care of your world destroying plot too" (When the plot the PCs are following doesn't involve destroying the world then you also have to explain why the "only" high level NPCs in the area are also busy) I'm really failing to see why the idea that there are multiple threats to Faerun extant at any one time is so hard for you to accept. Red Wizards, Shade Enclave, Zhentarim, Malaugrym, The Night Parade, not to mention all the churches of Evil gods, Evil races such as drow, Illithid, Begolders, Evil dragons and so forth, pose a constant threat every day across the Realms. It isnt some static place where only occasional threats pop and are beat down by the great and mighty uberchosen every once in a while. Its a place in a constant state of flux, where powerful wizards keep each others plots in check, monsters are roaming the wilds eating people, ancient bad things lie locked away in secret prisons until they find a way to break out, drow plan nightly attacks on the surface, flying cities of Evil wizards hover overhead, an entire country of Evil wizards plots to conquer the world daily, red dragons terrorize the countryside, orcs and goblins raid across the land, the church of Bane has a constant active plan to conquer everything as its (un)holy mission... There is a Hell of a lot going on that has to be defended against, kept in check, watched over, and planned for. Hell, the Malaugrym and other extraplanar powers alone probably occupy a almost all of Elminsters time, as Im pretty sure Ive read that he takes a personal interest in thwarting thier plans at all times. How many Realms Shaking Events (tm) have happened just in the few years detailed since the setting novels started coming out? Saying that thier arent that many bad guys threatening the Realms every day to keep the power players among the Good Guys busy at all times is disingenious at best. (AS an aside, in 16 years of playing D&D in the Realms, Ive only had one character ever meet Elminster, in a campaign that was almost specifically designed for the characters to meet him, as we started in in Shadowdale. Eventually one of the characters left for a short time, and when he showed back up he had become aware of his ability to use spellfire, and since Red Wizards and Zhents were hot on his heels to take him for experimentation, we went to Elminster for help. He wasnt too happy at first, but he tested out the spellfire wielder and determined he indeed had the ability, gave us some maps and a few locations we could go to if we needed to hide and a few people we could ask for help if we needed it, and said we should start moving so it would be harder to find us. Then I think he did a little clandestine 'Zhent sniping' as we werent followed again for a while. We even went to Silverymoon and met Alustrial a few times too, but at that point we were in our low 20's ourselves and were lending her a hand. All in all I thought it was an excellent use of the character of Elminster, and a very good example of what he probably goes through all the time, and why he never has more than 5 minutes peace at a time.)
Fanatic66 09-21-06, 07:54 PM	I'm still not convinced that Elminister is as busy as some of you are saying. Even if Elminister is truly busy fighting off the Shades, Maulgryms, Demon Princes, and countless other threats don't forget about the other Chosen/epic good mages.
Mecha_Pope 09-21-06, 08:38 PM	PAY ATTENTION TO ME PLEASE!!!!! They cannot react due to that fact that if they do, they and all of Fearun will cese to be! If El pops up and kills manshoon, then when hes weak, evil will go, "hey el got off his arse lets get him before he gets us!" Then all the good guys go, "Hey they kilt el we're next!" Then the next thing you know, theres a huge battle that magicly lays waste to all the world. The high level npc do nothing because they are essentialy living nukes. Low leveled pcs dont risk this, for they are below notice. Asside from that, the npcs were created with more for story and plot reasons than game mechanics anyways. Sure in game, El is huge, but in a book or novel or story, the world he's truley made for, gettin hit with a sword is deadly. Hes powerful, but outside of game mechanics, a lv one rouge can kill him in his sleep. (Actually higher than that because of his stupid ring of lesser ironguard... poo) Anyhow, if powerfull folks started runnin around killin even just orc hordes, they would eventuly get themselves killed anyways. 10,000 orcs vs the Simbul = 500 hits. Thats 500d8 damage if they win initiative, and they will if the good guys push thier luck and try it too many times. So no, they are just as mortal as anyone else. Even with a ring of lesser ironguard, a couple of forward thinking shamans can cheeply produce one +1 arrow for each member of the tibe. (btw, my intelegent creatures always have ranged weapons if they're sophisticated to produce them. Its rather dumb stratagy not to. Damn fly spell.)
Sapp 09-21-06, 09:02 PM	Oh God... It's another version of the "10,000 goblins vs 20th level wizard" argument again. In-game, role-playing OR roll-playing, there's no way 20,000 Orcs can defeat The Simbul unless you're being crafty and actually meant to say, "20,000 level 20 Orcs Wizards/Sorcerers! Omg!"
Karsus the Mad 09-21-06, 09:09 PM	Edit: Don't mind my ranting...I AM Mad afterall :D I must play the part:)
BrennonGoldeye 09-21-06, 09:47 PM	Add to Aaron's schedule trying to fit in a good meal(because its enjoyable), naughtiness(his most constant trait), actually being an Archmage(he likes to study and expand the Art), and all those insignificant things he does as #1 Chosen. Even with a 24 CN and no need to sleep it's making him loopy. Has been for quite awhile. Any active 30something level character should be that busy, how do you gain XP, not that many CR34 monsters running around. Or maybe there are...:plotting: :dragon: :plotting: I know I am treating him as a PC, but my players taught me long ago to remove the N from NPC. Nothing is out of reach, as El's diefic lovemaking sessions can attest to. It is a fantasy game after all. Just because El has stats and can be touched doesn't mean a player will ever have the chance to see or speak to him, let alone have the knowledge that they missed anything in the first place. The characters don't get to read the books. Only the DM.:D As to El's availability, I have never used him in my games. My players know better than to try to fool around with canon. They have a habit of pulling back burnt stumps or burnt comrades. The only published Chosen of Mystra the PC's have met is Dove. Add Shuruppak+Shar(a personal favorite) and a certain Chosen of Denier and that's our link to the Published godkissed. No El needed. But he is certainly appreciated.:)
BrennonGoldeye 09-21-06, 10:00 PM	Pope, after that second sentence all I can think of is "This is an X parrot!" This is not that argument again. :mage: BrennonGoldeye<------- Gooses Karsus interrupting Greater Animate Thread.;) One man. 24 hours. Teleport or no, its busy being Mystra's head Beaoutch.:cool:
Dark Wizard 09-21-06, 11:33 PM	Oh God... It's another version of the "10,000 goblins vs 20th level wizard" argument again. In-game, role-playing OR roll-playing, there's no way 20,000 Orcs can defeat The Simbul unless you're being crafty and actually meant to say, "20,000 level 20 Orcs Wizards/Sorcerers! Omg!" I've seen DMs brag on other boards about using 10,000 Kobold (no levels, templates, etc.) & a few mid level support shaman vs. 20th level party encounter ending in a TPK against a group of rowdy players. They despised Elminster and his epic ilk and wanted to smack the party around using just kobolds as the "tip of the sword." It was an ambush of course, covered from various divinations and what not, etc. It's just messing with D&D math. I stopped visiting those boards, just because the people became rather dismissive of those who disagreed with them.
GothicDan 09-22-06, 01:08 AM	And, again, I'll point out that there are more potentially active, evil entities of power levels equaling if not exceeding the Chosen, all of them actively plotting their own little plots. Big guys take care of big problems; little guys take care of little problems. The Princes of Shade or the Twisted Rune alone are enough to keep the majority of the Chosen busy, not to mention the Maulagryms, the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Arcane Brotherhood, the Cult of the Dragon, and any of a number of 'throw-away' references to evil groups that are just waiting in the shadows (such as the Circle of Rust and the Worm, an apocalyptic cult of arcanists dedicated to Talos - that's some pretty big stuff!).
Ripe 09-22-06, 02:21 AM	Actually I believe that to answer this question we must first answer another question: If Elminster take care of every threat facing Shadowdale, did he helped people of Shadowdale? And as weird as it might sound, the answer to that question is: No, he did not helped them. Why do I said that? Simple, if Elminster take care of every threat that face Shadowdale, then people living there would start depending on him and would be unable to face any threat facing them if Elminster was unavailable for some reason. It's because Elminster doesn't take care of every threat that people of Shadowdale were capable of defending against latest Zhentarim invasion attempt while Elminster was unavailable [I'm not sure if he was in Hell or trying to stop Shades at the time]. You know, just because some solution to a problem is easy, fast, simple and logical does not mean that it's also the best solution in a long run. The above line of thinking can be used in connection with every high level NPC or even PC's stoping threat to some community. Basically, stoping an Orc horde before it reaches some community is less of a help than teaching people of that community how to defend against orc horde [the variation of "Give a hungry man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to catch fish and you feed him for a life." saying].
Sapp 09-22-06, 02:26 AM	Yes. That is what I think as well. For mid and/or lower level parties, the only possible reason Elminster would ask them for a favor was if he was actually training them for the future. You TRAIN high-schoolers to eventually become competent. You DON'T employ them for a critical task using their current set of skills.
Ripe 09-22-06, 02:38 AM	Yes. That is what I think as well. For mid and/or lower level parties, the only possible reason Elminster would ask them for a favor was if he was actually training them for the future. You TRAIN high-schoolers to eventually become competent. You DON'T employ them for a critical task using their current set of skills. It's also true for high level parties. Remember that in our world if you enter some proffesions [namely medicine] you never stop learning and studying.
Derren S. 09-22-06, 11:41 AM	Remember that in our world if you enter some proffesions [namely medicine] you never stop learning and studying. So when the ruler of an country needs an urgent heart operation or he dies should the young surgerons fresh from the medical school do the operation? After all they have to learn and not have to depend on the experienced senior doctors...
Karsus the Mad 09-22-06, 05:17 PM	So when the ruler of an country needs an urgent heart operation or he dies should the young surgerons fresh from the medical school do the operation? After all they have to learn and not have to depend on the experienced senior doctors... Nope. But when it's your average Bill, Bob, or Leroy from the street, they'd be lucky if they even got the operation.
Derren S. 09-22-06, 05:47 PM	Nope. But when it's your average Bill, Bob, or Leroy from the street, they'd be lucky if they even got the operation. Unless there currently isn't a ruler of a country in the hospital and the senior surgerons are all nice philanthropist who care for all patients (-> good alignment). Then they would also treat Joe average. Or at least they will observe very closely what the rookies are doing, holding their hands if neccessary and interrupt as soon as anything goes wrong.
GothicDan 09-22-06, 06:34 PM	Unless there currently isn't a ruler of a country in the hospital and the senior surgerons are all nice philanthropist who care for all patients (-> good alignment). Then they would also treat Joe average. Wow. According to your standards, there's not many Good Doctors in the world.
Derren S. 09-22-06, 06:42 PM	Good in the D&D alignment meaning? No there aren't many. But the Médecins Sans Frontičres probably come very close.
GothicDan 09-22-06, 06:46 PM	Heh. I understand, now, where so many of your perceptions of the Realms seem 'off mark' to many of the rest of us. I guess, since 3E's alignment code is more 'strict' than 2E FR, many of those 'Good' NPCs in 2E might be considered 'Neutral' in 3E.
Fanatic66 09-22-06, 08:32 PM	PAY ATTENTION TO ME PLEASE!!!!! They cannot react due to that fact that if they do, they and all of Fearun will cese to be! If El pops up and kills manshoon, then when hes weak, evil will go, "hey el got off his arse lets get him before he gets us!" Then all the good guys go, "Hey they kilt el we're next!" Then the next thing you know, theres a huge battle that magicly lays waste to all the world. The high level npc do nothing because they are essentialy living nukes. Low leveled pcs dont risk this, for they are below notice. If all the Chosen are sitting around twiddling their thumbs because their afraid that saving the world might make the Twisted Rune, Red Wizards, Shades, ect. retailate, what happens if the PCs decide to slay Manshoon. By the time their high enough level to make Manshoon kick the bucket they're going to be well known. Defiantly well known enough that their actions will have repercussions like you stated. I doubt low level PCs can risk attacking Manshoon. Asside from that, the npcs were created with more for story and plot reasons than game mechanics anyways. Sure in game, El is huge, but in a book or novel or story, the world he's truley made for, gettin hit with a sword is deadly. Hes powerful, but outside of game mechanics, a lv one rouge can kill him in his sleep. (Actually higher than that because of his stupid ring of lesser ironguard... poo) On this I agree with you. The NPCs of FR should be more in the background unless the DM has good reason to introduce them.
Always-Late 09-23-06, 01:39 AM	Wow. According to your standards, there's not many Good Doctors in the world.Good doctors can't perform open heart surgery in less than sixty seconds.
Mirtek 09-24-06, 04:51 PM	"Why isn't the FBI stopping that bully in your middle school?" If the bully would be threatening the city with a stolen nuclear weapon the FBI would do all they can to stop him :P
Zargain 09-24-06, 06:09 PM	Here is my take on this (though I'm certain all the people arguing for "why doesn't elminster do it?" will not even regard me due to my avatar :P) Okay, you see... these high level NPCs don't sit around twiddling their thumbs all day. For example, Alustriel and the Simbul (and others) are busy running their kingdoms and any organizations they might be in. Ever elminster aids the harpers though not directly. Even then that aid might include researching a certain thing, speaking to contacts, plotting ideas ect. Second of all... ever played a campaign where the bbeg is rising for world domination/destruction and its up to the PCs to stop them? Have you ever thought "If this guy has such a badarse orginization and abilities how come he didn't make his move when we were running from those diseased kobolds?" Well, El and the others are your answer. through their contacts and work they can hinder the evil guy's oragnization weither by directly taking action through contacts and influence or maybe at least make the bad guy say, "How am I gonna take over that city with Khelben Blackstaff there?" and plot a little longer. Also a prime reason... you can't do anything when your dead. Does a general run out to the frontlines? Does the coach of a sports team put on a cup and go on the field himself? No, and here is why, they might be skilled and strong but even they are beatable. They're not going to take such risks that they're going to risk dying and therefore any influence or fear they instill on baddies to keep them from rising up to make problems would go away. i mean could you imagine if just 2 of the chosen of mystra were destroyed? any two i mean. In Alustriel's case for example it would cause so much strife in the silver marches that the zhents or the arcane brotherhood might sneak in to gain influence of the region or maybe even Obould would come down from the spine with his horde to say "hi" during the strife. Thats just direct consequenses mind you, don't forget there'd be countess other baddies trying to make use of the advantage.
Derren S. 09-24-06, 06:21 PM	Here is my take on this (though I'm certain all the people arguing for "why doesn't elminster do it?" will not even regard me due to my avatar :P) Okay, you see... these high level NPCs don't sit around twiddling their thumbs all day. For example, Alustriel and the Simbul (and others) are busy running their kingdoms and any organizations they might be in. Ever elminster aids the harpers though not directly. Even then that aid might include researching a certain thing, speaking to contacts, plotting ideas ect. Second of all... ever played a campaign where the bbeg is rising for world domination/destruction and its up to the PCs to stop them? Have you ever thought "If this guy has such a badarse orginization and abilities how come he didn't make his move when we were running from those diseased kobolds?" Well, El and the others are your answer. through their contacts and work they can hinder the evil guy's oragnization weither by directly taking action through contacts and influence or maybe at least make the bad guy say, "How am I gonna take over that city with Khelben Blackstaff there?" and plot a little longer. Also a prime reason... you can't do anything when your dead. Does a general run out to the frontlines? Does the coach of a sports team put on a cup and go on the field himself? No, and here is why, they might be skilled and strong but even they are beatable. They're not going to take such risks that they're going to risk dying and therefore any influence or fear they instill on baddies to keep them from rising up to make problems would go away. i mean could you imagine if just 2 of the chosen of mystra were destroyed? any two i mean. In Alustriel's case for example it would cause so much strife in the silver marches that the zhents or the arcane brotherhood might sneak in to gain influence of the region or maybe even Obould would come down from the spine with his horde to say "hi" during the strife. Thats just direct consequenses mind you, don't forget there'd be countess other baddies trying to make use of the advantage. 1. I am sure speaking to contacts is more important than saving the world. 2. Why "work through contacts" and risk that the evil guy wins when you can just pop in and blast him to oblivion? 3. You can't kill Elminster or the 7 Sisters. Ok, you can but because of Mystra and the whole "goody goody network" they will be true ressurected within minutes. The other uber NPCs don't have a that impressive fail save system but simply killing them won't do it.
Zargain 09-24-06, 06:38 PM	1. I am sure speaking to contacts is more important than saving the world. 2. Why "work through contacts" and risk that the evil guy wins when you can just pop in and blast him to oblivion? 3. You can't kill Elminster or the 7 Sisters. Ok, you can but because of Mystra and the whole "goody goody network" they will be true ressurected within minutes. The other uber NPCs don't have a that impressive fail save system but simply killing them won't do it. 1) Contacts SO he can work to save the world, your problem is is that you assume all the evil in the world is contained in the evil PC race NPCs and its not. As said before there are hundreds of evil organizations, churches , cults ect. as well as your typicasl rampaging monsters, orc and goblinoid hordes ect. Theres plenty of baddies to go round. 2) because he can die himself (see below for more) further, he's one guy, he can do alot but he's one guy alone. Imagine having to teleport and evocate 10 hours a day every day, 10 days a tenday... there is no way he could do it alone or even with the few dozen NPCs 3) Okay, Mystra might interven on occasion but ANY chosen gets that, beside, i doubt the god of the dead or Ao would like the idea that Mystra keeps saving her people 5 times a month.
Alac Luin 09-24-06, 09:19 PM	3. You can't kill Elminster or the 7 Sisters. Ok, you can but because of Mystra and the whole "goody goody network" they will be true ressurected within minutes. The other uber NPCs don't have a that impressive fail save system but simply killing them won't do it. I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. One of the seven sisters did die, and she wasn't reserected. Sure, she exists as a "ghost", but she doesn't have the same influence she would if she had a body. And we do have many instances where the evil baddies do come back from the dead, all leagal like in game terms.
Ripe 09-25-06, 02:44 AM	1. I am sure speaking to contacts is more important than saving the world. Well, in 20+ years of published FR history there was no "save the world" type of plots that I'm aware of. And most of the RSE's can be called that only conditionally since they threatend only one region at best. The only true RSE was Times of Troubles. [Take note that I didn't read the recent Blackstaff novel] 2. Why "work through contacts" and risk that the evil guy wins when you can just pop in and blast him to oblivion? And why not sent some pawns to soften up BBEG and came in and blast him after BBEG spent some of his resources killing them? 3. You can't kill Elminster or the 7 Sisters. Ok, you can but because of Mystra and the whole "goody goody network" they will be true ressurected within minutes. The other uber NPCs don't have a that impressive fail save system but simply killing them won't do it. Well, Sylune is dead. And another Chosen just died. And Mystra didn't true resurect that one. No one did. And most likely, no one will. Not to mention that Fzoul was killed once [and was raised by Bane], that Manshoon cheated death with his Stasis Clones on more than one occasion, that Artemis was brought back by Jarlaxle, etc.
Derren S. 09-25-06, 11:42 AM	Well, Sylune is dead. And another Chosen just died. And Mystra didn't true resurect that one. No one did. And most likely, no one will. Which is of course completly illogical, but that are the novel rules.
Ripe 09-25-06, 02:02 PM	Which is of course completly illogical, but that are the novel rules. No, it's not illogical considering the circumstances of that death. And don't forget, Mystra's Chosen have one thing no other Chosen have: free will. So if one of her Chosen knowingly take action that would result in his/her death Mystra would respect that. And casting an High Elven Ritual with "caster dies" condition is just such action.
BrianCritchley 09-26-06, 02:14 AM	those who ***** whine and moan about the high powered NPCs in the end forget the important rule out there.. there's always more plots going on then the good guys can nesscarily handle. sure that threat to the kingdom of cormyr may seem important but "bob the mad mage" could be about to destroy the world. likewise elminister and the rest of the chosen don't WANT to constantly adventure. sure elminister could solve your parties problems, but your party is capable, why would he want too?
Derren S. 09-26-06, 10:55 AM	sure that threat to the kingdom of cormyr may seem important but "bob the mad mage" could be about to destroy the world. And thats why Elminster & Co stop Bob the Mad Mage and the now draconized Vangey together with the hundereds of war wizards and purple dragon knights take care of the threat to Cormyr. No adventurers neccessary.
Alediran 09-26-06, 11:29 AM	And thats why Elminster & Co stop Bob the Mad Mage and the now draconized Vangey together with the hundereds of war wizards and purple dragon knights take care of the threat to Cormyr. No adventurers neccessary. Vangey retired from his position. Now you have fresh blood in the Mage Royal position, someone who may need the hand of a group of helpfull adventurers.
Aaron L 09-26-06, 11:55 AM	One more important thing to remember: Good is not monolithic, just as Evil isnt. Not all Good Guys (tm) get along with each other. Elminster especially, being Chaotic Good and a bit of a bastard, may not do some things because he doesn't want to, and he knows someone else will come along to handle it.
The Ubbergeek 09-26-06, 12:33 PM	I can see Elminster and some of the harsher, more straight Lawfull Good guys not being always on nice terms... Especially since El date a batcrap nut lady.
Alediran 09-26-06, 12:46 PM	The same thing happened to the Harpers under Khelben and an order of Paladins in Thornhold by Elaine Cunningham.
Zargain 09-26-06, 08:08 PM	And thats why Elminster & Co stop Bob the Mad Mage and the now draconized Vangey together with the hundereds of war wizards and purple dragon knights take care of the threat to Cormyr. No adventurers neccessary. But while Cormyr is amassing against that one foe, good ole Mr. Storm King sees that he's got a clear unguarded route to Suzail and unleashes his goblin horde, the Zhentarim see that even with a victory over "bob the mage" that there's going to be alot of turmoil immediatly following the battle so they start increasing influence, sending assassins to take out pesky nobles and maybe even the royal family. And then lets not forget the fire knives, they might decide to throw in with all of this... Random powerful NPCs aren't gonna just pop in to save everyone from all these problems.. thats where adventurers come in. Now just imagine a kingdom less organized than Cormyr... need of adventurers is even greater. I think your problem derren is that you think that Elminster is just gonna pop in to every corner of faerun, blast every baddie and save the day. Sometimes there are situations much more deep than that. Just because you blast Szass Tam doesn't mean that the other Zulkirs are going to lie down and repent. And if you blasted all of them there'd eventually be some strong (more agressive) red wizard who takes over. And what about situations where not ever single person involved is evil? I mean if you were to blow up Zhentil keep killing all the Zhentarim leaders, what would happen then? You'd have anarchy through the city and regions they'd rule leaving ambitious zhent officers and other people to fight each other getting lots of normal commoners in the crossfire of it all. Worse, what if some toher evil cult or cabal suddenly shows up to make Zhentil keep their new home? Not every evil in Faerun can be stoped by a teleport, blast and then teleport away. Even if it did, the amount of work on a daily basis would be impossible: *El blows up Fzoul Cembryl after a hard fight, is badly wounded in the process* "Oh crap! Now Obould is attacking silverymoon!" *teleports, blows up horde but is badly wounded by the end* "*huffing* Now Samaster is doing something!? Dammit!" *teleports to Samaster, blows him away with only a fraction of HP left* "Damnit! Now Klauth is rampaging in the north!" *teleports to klauth, gets swallowed whole* Now the effort to do just one of those would drain ol' el of nearly all his resources, but for arguments sake, assuming he could, just replace El's name with any other powerful NPC
Fanatic66 09-28-06, 07:48 PM	You guys are putting up a good argument LOL. I still can't see so many trully epic evil threats assaulting the innocents of the Realms. At least not enough that Chosen and their allies couldn't handle. I guess we have to agree to disagree. I do agree, however, with what some of you are saying. I doubt all of the good epic guys are one big happy family. El isn't called a cranky old man for nothing!:P
BrianCritchley 09-28-06, 08:07 PM	cormyr needs adventurers now more then ever considering that "what army of purple dragons and war wizards... ohh you mean the one that was just recently trashed to the point at which there;s no way the purple dragons can really handle everything?" cormyr as it stands holds excellent oppertunites for adventureing, as the purple dragons are right now thinly deployed to stop invasions from sembia etc. and certinly aren't going to be able to handle all the goblin etc infestations. and god help cormyr if a descendant of the purple dragon remembered the exact wording of his ancestors deal with the elves and realizes that ohh.. say marsember is squatting? ;)
The Ubbergeek 09-28-06, 08:48 PM	You guys are putting up a good argument LOL. I still can't see so many trully epic evil threats assaulting the innocents of the Realms. At least not enough that Chosen and their allies couldn't handle. I guess we have to agree to disagree. I do agree, however, with what some of you are saying. I doubt all of the good epic guys are one big happy family. El isn't called a cranky old man for nothing!:P Even an epic guy is not a god. Throw enough runts at him/her and she/he will get killed. *shrugs* We tend to think always of the big menaces, but... small menaces can be more lethals. Immagine the danger created by an horde of say, a whole 400-big Kobold tribe to a few adventurers of moderatly high levels....
Mecha_Pope 09-28-06, 09:03 PM	I am SO gonna use "bob the mad mage":P Pcs: I wonder who the new bbeg is gonna be? I hope its something cool like Realgar the shadow or Hlrashnazzigirix the unhollowed, black dragon dracolich! BBEG: Wither within the arcane might of bob the mad mage! reminds me of tim the enchanter well there's nothing more i can say that wont be repeating my self, so if you want to hear from me again read my old posts again! Just one thing, i was implyng earlyier that a party of 4+ adventureres against one of the epic evil guys wouldnt have to be that uber to beat them, on account of supierier numbers and such. Just figure the cr for the party and line it up against the npc's cr. When the littler (relitivley speaking) guys kill a bbeg the other bbegs go "ha! manshoon got kilt!" but if one uber guy comes in and just poofs him gone, they go, "Crap, 'Shoon jus got pwned by El, we better go bust him up or we'll be next!" so then, next thing you know, every uber npc is fighting and they magicly destroy the world with empowered, maximized, repeating, energy admixtured, quickened, repeating, explosive, transdimensinal, perminent, widened, dancing, dripping, flying, living, rash-causing metior swarms!
Thanqol 09-28-06, 11:24 PM	Even an epic guy is not a god. Throw enough runts at him/her and she/he will get killed. *shrugs* We tend to think always of the big menaces, but... small menaces can be more lethals. Immagine the danger created by an horde of say, a whole 400-big Kobold tribe to a few adventurers of moderatly high levels.... What? An epic character could *exterminate* an army without breaking a sweat. He could just Fly behind a Wind Wall and lob Fireballs if he was feeling in the mood for 3rd level spells. Then he gets mildly cranky and breaks out the Wail of the Banshee and Meteor Swarm spells. Good luck to your 5th level kobold sorcerer chieftain dispelling that. To take another example, a 20th level fighter stands a good chance against four *thousand* first level fighters if he gears up right. And that's only if they pool their pathetic 1st level wealth to buy something that might actually tickle him. EDIT: Elminister could even get his staff and epic level AC booster items, and walk amongst the kobolds, smacking them in the head and killing them one at a time.
Lycan_Hunter_Corkie 09-28-06, 11:48 PM	To take another example, a 20th level fighter stands a good chance against four *thousand* first level fighters if he gears up right. And that's only if they pool their pathetic 1st level wealth to buy something that might actually tickle him. the one thing your forgetting is all the nat 20's that a dm would get with 1000 fighters. that's 1000 chances to get a 20 cause you can only get so many ones.
Thanqol 09-28-06, 11:52 PM	the one thing your forgetting is all the nat 20's that a dm would get with 1000 fighters. that's 1000 chances to get a 20 cause you can only get so many ones. Heavy Fortification. Great Cleave w/ Reach Weapon + Short Haft. Damage Reduction. ...
Lycan_Hunter_Corkie 09-29-06, 12:37 AM	ok that'll do it.:bow:
BrennonGoldeye 09-29-06, 08:49 AM	:hides: Did somebody say Kobolds...
BrennonGoldeye 09-29-06, 11:02 AM	the one thing your forgetting is all the nat 20's that a dm would get with 1000 fighters. that's 1000 chances to get a 20 cause you can only get so many ones. True true, but how are you gonna get all those 20's when the fighters can't even reach the target, let alone the fact that they are now all fighting each other due to the 8thish level spell just cast.......
Karsus the Mad 09-29-06, 06:56 PM	After 6 pages, I wonder why you (anyone who is whining about El and co being able to actually solve ALL problems) even bother playing in FR. If you feel that El and co. can solve all problems and there aren't any reason to have adventurers, then simply don't play in FR. Stop being a hypocrit and whining like a little kid about a setting you choose to play in and make up your own world where there is a need for adventurers in your eyes.
BrennonGoldeye 10-02-06, 07:55 AM	Tee hee, you go K.:cheer:
Karsus the Mad 10-02-06, 11:09 AM	Tee hee, you go K.:cheer: :tiphat: One of the few things I've said that you agree with:)
Renvale999 10-02-06, 11:42 AM	It's amazing how the lines between novels and actual game mechanics get blurred. To be honest, the Chosen are left to deal with things are their own basis, both their victories and their defeats. To be honest, if you look at Storm Silverhand, she's happy just being the mid-wife of Shadowdale. If you ever read Stormlight, you'll understand alot more how Chosen think. Storm was in a bad fight in a temple and lost someone precious to her...but Mystra left her to her grief and she has to deal with it. Chosen are people too, don't forget that...they have their own wants and needs, and sometimes saving the Realms everytime some evil idiot threatens it is not a life most of them want and/or need. They accepted being Chosen, but they are mostly left to their own devices unless Mystra calls on them. If you had the backing of a Goddess, would you go out risking your life for things that could be handled by other heroes?? Or would you save your strength for when your Goddess truly needs you?
BrianCritchley 10-02-06, 01:12 PM	aye most of the chosen have retired from active adventureing, they'll help out occasionally but are QUITE content to let someone else do it while they relax.
Derren S. 10-02-06, 02:30 PM	aye most of the chosen have retired from active adventureing, they'll help out occasionally but are QUITE content to let someone else do it while they relax. Which doesn't fit with their good alignment at all.
Renvale999 10-02-06, 02:43 PM	Which doesn't fit with their good alignment at all. There is nothing wrong with retiring from active adventuring...both El and Storm have done more good for the Realms than anyone else. Period. Just because you're good, doesn't make you go out and destroy evil at every turn. Most commoners are good, doesn't mean that any of them needs to go pick up a sword and go after the biggest tyrant they can find. As far as the Chosen goes, "With Great Power comes Great Responiblity" If the Chosen recklessly go out and destroy evil, eventually they are going to make a mistake or become weary and let their guard down. When that happens, alot worse could occur. To quote a great mage "Do not be so quick to deal out death and judgement, even the very wise cannot see all ends." If El were to go out and destroy Fzoul Chembryl, it very well may start a civil war among the Zhents and those good people living under the Zhent rule could suffer far more than they do already.
Alediran 10-02-06, 02:44 PM	Which doesn't fit with their good alignment at all. They are living beings, they are not robots that can work 24/7. They have done more good that all paladins put together, they deserve their vacations.
FingerThePick 10-02-06, 05:07 PM	I consider myself good but I dont spend every waking hour out voulnteering at hospitals and soup kitchens to fight the evil of disease and homelessness. I do volunteer some and give some money but I also buy Bass guitars and Ad&d books with my money as well as taking my girlfriend to the movies or bowling. Is it wrong that I dont spend all my time and money undoing the evil that has befallen people? The chosen and other mega good guys want to relax also, and get tired of saving the world every other day.
Derren S. 10-02-06, 05:09 PM	I consider myself good but I dont spend every waking hour out voulnteering at hospitals and soup kitchens to fight the evil of disease and homelessness. And this does compare how to a walking demigod who can with a snap of his fingers stop the plans of the mighties evil organisations on Toril?
FingerThePick 10-02-06, 05:24 PM	And this does compare how to a walking demigod who can with a snap of his fingers stop the plans of the mighties evil organisations on Toril? how does it compare? Elminster (I have never seen a writeup stating that he is a demigod) is human just like you and me and he has the same wants and gets tired of doing things for every little winer and complainer as well as getting tired of saving the world yet again. Let someone else do it, he's done it enough.
Derren S. 10-02-06, 05:31 PM	Let someone else do it, he's done it enough. Which does not fit the good alignment.
Dark Wizard 10-02-06, 05:32 PM	And this does compare how to a walking demigod who can with a snap of his fingers stop the plans of the mighties evil organisations on Toril? Elminster can't just stop the plans of the mightiest evil organisations on Toril with a snap of his fingers. Weak minor evils perhaps, but not the really big ones. Just as Gandalf who actually was a walking demigod couldn't fight Sauron himself. Just as Merlin couldn't create a united England without Arthur.
Alediran 10-02-06, 05:36 PM	Seriously Derren, where do you get your ideas that Elminster & Co. are Demigods? They aren't even the most powerfull people in Toril.
FingerThePick 10-02-06, 05:51 PM	Which does not fit the good alignment. do you consider yourself of good alignment?
Derren S. 10-02-06, 05:54 PM	do you consider yourself of good alignment? No. If squeezed into D&D alignment rules I consider myself neutral like 99,99999999% of al otehr humans too.
Renvale999 10-02-06, 05:55 PM	At this point I think Derren is argueing for the sake of argueing...play EL anyway you deem fit, it's your world...we'll use them the way we want.
FingerThePick 10-02-06, 06:12 PM	I agree and El and the chosen barely make any apperances in the games I run. My players rarely get into situations where they are hired by locals of any kind to solve a problem they each (the party is mostly LN) have their own goals and work towards those means.
Dark Wizard 10-02-06, 06:39 PM	Humans are listed as Neutral in D&D?
FingerThePick 10-02-06, 06:51 PM	I think he is saying that almost every in the real world considers them selves neutral. I must know alot of the itty bitty persentage he gave of good folks because most people I know would consider themselves good.
Derren S. 10-02-06, 06:55 PM	I think he is saying that almost every in the real world considers them selves neutral. I must know alot of the itty bitty persentage he gave of good folks because most people I know would consider themselves good. No. Everyone in the real world considers himself good. Even persons like Bin Laden, Hitler and Stalin thought that they are good. But when you squeez them into the D&D alignment system most persons in the world would be neutral with some rare good/evil exceptions. Thats why you can't compare yourself with Elminster. Even when you consider yourself good, most likely you aren't and thats why teh "I would act the same way if I were Elminster" argument doesn't count.
FingerThePick 10-02-06, 06:59 PM	Even when you consider yourself good, most likely you aren't . so I'm not good? hmmm I always thought I was. Maybe I should stop caring about people and stop helping people when I can. If I'm not good then it doesnt matter. I find it funny that you can know what I am in terms of good/neutrality/evil without even knowing me.
BrianCritchley 10-02-06, 07:00 PM	Which does not fit the good alignment. kindly keep in mind that alignments are tendancies, also elminister takes a LONG VIEW, he proably realizes that him going out and solveing all the worlds problems would make the world too dependant on him. also while elminister could solve the problems he'd much rather joe adventurer do it and invent a new spell in the process
Derren S. 10-02-06, 07:22 PM	kindly keep in mind that alignments are tendancies, also elminister takes a LONG VIEW, he proably realizes that him going out and solveing all the worlds problems would make the world too dependant on him. You know that sounds a lot like the "greater good" argumentation.
Karsus the Mad 10-02-06, 07:31 PM	And this does compare how to a walking demigod who can with a snap of his fingers stop the plans of the mighties evil organisations on Toril? He can't. That's how it compares. You're arguing because you desire the argument, not the truth. I'll tell you what. You go out and cure ALL the disease. You go out and provide food for ALL the starving. You go out and provide shelter for ALL the homeless. You go out and give money to ALL the poor. Then come back and tell me how easy it is:) You can't, can you? Then don't expect Elminster to either:) Until you yourself can do it, don't accuse someone else of not being able to.
Derren S. 10-02-06, 07:50 PM	You can't, can you? Then don't expect Elminster to either:) Until you yourself can do it, don't accuse someone else of not being able to. Oh, sorry for not beeing a thousand years old chosen of mystra with enough magical knowledge to blow up countries and acces to nearly all magical items and minor artifacts that exist... And yes, elminster can. Not all evil plots at the same time but one by one. Also the rest of the chosen and other high level good NPCs can take care of the things El can't do. But sitting around doing nothing while beeing fully capable of stopping evil is certainly not good.
GothicDan 10-02-06, 07:56 PM	A) There are about as many Evil high-level NPCs as there are Good ones. B) Evil people tend to plot all the time to get more powerful. That's why they're evil. A + B = Hands Full.
Karsus the Mad 10-02-06, 07:59 PM	I'm sorry Derren S. You know I love ya... I apparently wasn't clear the first time. I'll try again. Until you can, in game, do what everything you accuse El of being able to do, you truly are arguing because you want to.
Alac Luin 10-02-06, 09:13 PM	You know that sounds a lot like the "greater good" argumentation. And what is wrong with the "greater good" argumentation? Lets see, Elminster goes to destroy the zents. First off, even with all his power he would be hard pressed to be able to do this. So, the Zents are gone, now we have cities filled with innocent people that depended on the leadership of the zents to bring food and stability to them. A rise in petty gangs in open warfare in the streets where innocent bystanders are murdered while various factions fight for supremacy in the vacuum caused by the absence of the Zents. After many innocents have died by murder and starvation, eventually another group will take over. This doesn't even take into account the issues all across Faerun of people not getting food and supplies transported by zent backed trading coasters.
Lycan_Hunter_Corkie 10-02-06, 09:33 PM	plus the "evil doers" arent all idiots. if el started saving the world all the time they would find a way to get around that. like setting schemes off all at the same time all across the realms. i'd like to see el take care of all of that at one time.
Sapp 10-03-06, 12:04 AM	I've stopped complaining once I realized the truth. The Seven Sisters were already slain by Tempus. The current ones are mere shadows of Shar. The current Elminster is only pretending to be Chaotic Good. He has been mind raped by Shar, and is now a helpless puppet in Shar's plan to torture Mystra in a psychological warfare designed to undermine Mystra's very divine sanity. Only when Mystra breaks into blubbering loon will Shar finally soil her weapons with the final strokes needed to finish Mystra and her filthy Weave.
Ripe 10-03-06, 09:45 AM	May I remind you that "Good" does not exist as allignment choice in D&D game? The closest thing to it is Neutral Good, but most of the Chosen are Chaotic Good [Khelben is LN and Simbul is CN]. Now acording to SRD this is what Chaotic Good mean: Chaotic Good, “Rebel”: A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society. Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit. So you tell me where in that say that Elminster and other Chosen MUST foil every evil plot?
BrennonGoldeye 10-03-06, 11:16 AM	No. If squeezed into D&D alignment rules I consider myself neutral like 99,99999999% of al otehr humans too. Ok Derren, 99.999ad infinitum% is actually 100% in all ways, at least in mathmatics. If ya want me to prove it I can. You just hedged all humans into the neutral alignment. No free will huh? What is the point of align? Hitler and Stalin never even dreamed of being good, they were lawful. Protecting their own. Following the ethomorality they formed in their own brilliant but seriously twisted minds. Neutrality is much harder to be than good or evil. Balancing is always harder than tipping. I think we have a problem here with our own personal definitions of Good and Evil(for that matter Law and Chaos). What you want is the Good(Lawful Good) of the Archons. They try to spend every moment expanding their vision of paradise. Can you smell some trouble in that attitude? Those beings who are Chaotic Good have their own ethos. This entails that people must come to their own understanding of what is good. What decision brings about the most love, joy, and life; not only to themeselves and kin, but to others they have never met. To be truly good aligned you must be good to yourself and others who might not have the same political aims as you. Even when it comes to your own folk, if you do everything for a child you end up raising a brat who has no personal experience of what it is to actually be good. Hard lessons come. That is what makes good Good. And that is what makes Chaotic Good the hardest align to rule. It is chaotic after all, and good to boot. Does this explain the alternate opinion?:duel:
Derren S. 10-03-06, 11:39 AM	So you tell me where in that say that Elminster and other Chosen MUST foil every evil plot? Leaning back, doing nothing and letting innocents and good adventurers die even though you are perfectly capable of helping them is XG for you?
Alediran 10-03-06, 12:20 PM	Leaning back, doing nothing and letting innocents and good adventurers die even though you are perfectly capable of helping them is XG for you? You should read Return of the Archwizard, where Storm tells Galaeron something like: not even us can save all the people in the world, she said it when they where going to infiltrate Shade Enclave and a pack of dragons attack the caravan they used as a disguise. Good Adventurers are another subject, Elminster & Co. don't save their lives all the time because it means that they will become Elminster-dependant and the day that he is not available, they are fried. Elminster knows this, that is why he doesn't save them every time, otherwise no adventurer will become powerfull on his/her own, and like Elminster said in FRCS (read it how many times are needed untily you understand it) "Faerűn needs his heroes".
dizfactor 10-03-06, 12:30 PM	Leaning back, doing nothing and letting innocents and good adventurers die even though you are perfectly capable of helping them is XG for you? Understanding that there are limits to what you can do, and understanding that it is best for the greater good in the long term for people not to be dependent on you, and making your peace with those facts is perfectly consistent with good alignment, even if that means that people die whom you theoretically could have saved.
Derren S. 10-03-06, 01:42 PM	You should read Return of the Archwizard, where Storm tells Galaeron something like: not even us can save all the people in the world, she said it when they where going to infiltrate Shade Enclave and a pack of dragons attack the caravan they used as a disguise. Good Adventurers are another subject, Elminster & Co. don't save their lives all the time because it means that they will become Elminster-dependant and the day that he is not available, they are fried. Elminster knows this, that is why he doesn't save them every time, otherwise no adventurer will become powerfull on his/her own, and like Elminster said in FRCS (read it how many times are needed untily you understand it) "Faerűn needs his heroes". So is better when the adventurers fail to stop the evil plot and die instead it then when Elminster helps them and everyone survives (innocents affected by the plot included)?
Alediran 10-03-06, 02:22 PM	So is better when the adventurers fail to stop the evil plot and die instead it then when Elminster helps them and everyone survives (innocents affected by the plot included)? Adventurers who fail to stop the evil plot and die aren't going to get the Good Big Leagues uniform, just like evil need the best people it can get, so does good, think it as Survival of the Fittest, if a good adventurer can survive against difficult odds, he/she will become more powerfull and more capable of helping the good cause, if he/she dies, then it means that the adventurer wasn't usefull to the cause, that is why powerfull figures of good need to avoid saving the younger's lives, otherwise they will never learn to be carefull when battling evil.
BrennonGoldeye 10-03-06, 02:58 PM	For the love of Pete man. I hereby blame Derren(and scream EVIL!:devil:) for all the humans who don't have enough to eat. You have a computer. That money could have been better spent to bring the standard of living up for the 2,000,000,000 that needed some extra calories. Why spend time or money on an education? How is that going to help the needy? Use it to hoe some corn outa those fields! Cuum Ba Ya my Lord, Cuum By Ya! Just gift us! Other people did! El therefore should put the Tower up for auction so he can help the streetbeggers of Calimshan. Have some extra $. He does, seems to hoard it too. If you save it(as opposed to feeding the poor with it) then you are being evil for hoarding it. Doesn't matter if you are actually saving it to form a NPO to help the poor. You don't get to save, or have a family, or have a fricken life. No training others to take up the mantle from your tired shoulders. You must spend every iota of your strength to save others. Otherwise you are not good. Wow, we just upstaged Budda and Mother Teresa(hey, she had to eat and sleep) in a day. What's next? Time travelling to teach vitamins and anti-biotics to the cavemen? If you have the power and not the will than you are EVIL!:devil: Elminster is not an archon. If you want good this way then go to the top layer of the 7 heavens, oh wait, you can't, cause only archangels act that way. Not mortals. No-one expects them to, except maybe the sociopathic throwbacks. Hmm, maybe that's why Hitler and Stalin thought they were good while murdering a third of their own populations. All or nothing is the attitude of Gods(because they can see more and have an agenda) and children(because they think they see more and have an agenda). All respect to you Derren, but El must keep himself in shape and sanity(harder and harder as days go on) in order to be able to be the Chosen he should be. That means there are some things he can do, and some things he can't. And some things that are for others to do. Kid's have to learn.:)
GothicDan 10-03-06, 03:44 PM	I guess FR makes a lot less sense when you interpret printed alignments as strictly as Derren does.
Alediran 10-03-06, 03:48 PM	I guess FR makes a lot less sense when you interpret printed alignments as strictly as Derren does. I bet he is L(L)N
Derren S. 10-03-06, 04:20 PM	Adventurers who fail to stop the evil plot and die aren't going to get the Good Big Leagues uniform, just like evil need the best people it can get, so does good, think it as Survival of the Fittest, if a good adventurer can survive against difficult odds, he/she will become more powerfull and more capable of helping the good cause, if he/she dies, then it means that the adventurer wasn't usefull to the cause, that is why powerfull figures of good need to avoid saving the younger's lives, otherwise they will never learn to be carefull when battling evil. This is how a druid would act and druids are not CG like El but neutral. oh wait, you can't, cause only archangels act that way. Not mortals. Chosens are't mortal anymore. There is a difference between El can't stop evil X and El doesn't want to stop evil x. The former is tragic but still CG. The latter one is neutral and not good. So we are back to the marvel/dbz world where there are hundereds of evil plots going on to keep El, the other chosens and high level NPCs busy so that the PCs can have a adventure of their own.
BrennonGoldeye 10-03-06, 04:36 PM	This is how a druid would act and druids are not CG like El but neutral. Chosens are't mortal anymore. There is a difference between El can't stop evil X and El doesn't want to stop evil x. The former is tragic but still CG. The latter one is neutral and not good. So we are back to the marvel/dbz world where there are hundereds of evil plots going on to keep El, the other chosens and high level NPCs busy so that the PCs can have a adventure of their own. How about he just doesn't have the time. No matter how smart you are you can only do so much, and has been said over and over if he can help he usually does, in order of neccesity(which would put most PC requests right out. He does get to have a life doesn't he? Gets to talk, walk, smell a rose? Snuggle with his girl? It is his life after all, even if it has been extended. And yes Chosen are mortal. Very mortal. Not aging doesn't make you immortal. It makes you old. Very old. And Grumpy.....
createvmind 10-03-06, 04:44 PM	I agree with Krash in terms of your or anyones PC's metagaming knowledge of Elminster, simply put they have read about Elminster in RL and they are applying that knowledge to their characters. Unless personally present to several of Elminsters deeds how would they know what he is capable of, his powers and apptitude for magic and link to Goddess. Their characters have read what books to have all this knowledge within Faerun regarding Elminster. And I think it's obviously a fact that anyone who calls Elminster a true friend does not run their mouth about Elminster. ( First rule of fight club....you know the rest.) More importantly Faerun is a huge world, it seems the assumption by too many is that everyone lives in or near the North therefore must know ELminster and all his exploits. So anything they know would be hearsay at best and I'm sure Elminster is giving credit for actions he's had no part of good and bad not to mention the multitude of charlatans and folks who try to imitate what little they have heard about ELminster for personal gain, smoking a similar pipe and such. No one's PC's would know what ELminster did in Hell, nor in Elminsters Daughter or any other text we as players are lucky enough to read. Now for a PC who may know a little of his deeds the answer to him should be along the lines that he serves Mystra. AS players we have the knowledge that first and foremost Elminster is devoted to Mystra's will and does as she ask even if he personally WOULD like to handle situation differently. To the other statement of WHY do adventurers risk life and limb,..............ummm lets see, because they are ADVENTEROUS!!!!!! They take these risk because they desire to be victorious, famous, rich, powerful, can't help stealing from others, are homicidal maniacs, take your pick. Why would someone who has trained in a class not wish to apply his/her training, why would said person want someone else to defeat what was undefeatable and it not be them? Why do people strive to break sports records? I understand how difficult it is to not apply OOG knowledge to one's PC especially with young players and doubly especially with veteran players. But as a DM one must rein in those who stray from roleplay from time to time for the good of all, ha.
Alediran 10-03-06, 04:44 PM	This is how a druid would act and druids are not CG like El but neutral. That is how a Wise person would act Chosens are't mortal anymore. Chosens can die like anybody else, and it has been proved.
Dark Wizard 10-03-06, 05:31 PM	Heck, even angels and archon's don't have the power to make everything righteous and good, otherwise there wouldn't be fiends anymore, or even Rilmani, Modrons, or Slaadi for that matter. Do you know what happens to people when they devote themselves entirely to causes that require unpleasant actions (killing people, even evil people) for too long, they can start to go insane. We know that even D&D gods aren't immune to mental fatigue, degradation, or dilemmas. We also have precedence for chosen going insane, with Sammaster being the most prominent. It's the whole stare too long into the abyss and it stares back into you concept. I think even celestials have to return to their home planes to refocus themselves every now and then. If you spent too much time in enemy territory waist deep in the blood of your enemies, it can't be healthy for your mental well being. We know that even celestials can fall and they're living aspects of the good alignments. Your definition of good is beyond even the exalted concept from BoED. It's one thing to not like Elminster and company, but it doesn't mean you have to drop all sense of logical and reality in order to argue against them. As for the DBZ thing, I'm pretty sure there was only one BBEG at any one time, and it was the same bunch of heroes who dealt with each one. The plots were rather linear as I remember, though it's been a good decade since I've seen any episodes. The problem people have with DBZ isn't that there were hundreds of problems for the mega-beings to handle in order to make way for the lowly regular people to have a chance at adventure, it was the unneccessary grunting-filled power-ups and ridiculous level of campy destruction. Perhaps you should get that cleared up before you latch on to that old standby of a forum punching bag to try to give your argument more weight than it has. The Marvel continuity dates back over forty years before FR was even published. It's also a set of franchises worth billions. WotC wished D&D and FR had even a fraction of what the comics industry has. The arguments against the Chosen are very much the exact same ones leveled by some critics against comicbook superheroes, against the sorts of super-beings like Superman. Various counter arguments have been raised to defend the concept of the more powerful superheroes. These have gone back and forth, neither side has the flawless argument, but that's just the thing, the charges put against the Chosen are not as solid as you think. That is why the concept of superheroes has not entirely collapsed, and why FR hasn't either, there is more than enough consistency and believability to maintain the mild suspension of disbelief needed to support the settings. Of course fans moan and whine when perceived mistakes happen to these continuities and settings (ToT for FR being a big one which is being fixed over time), but for the most part, the settings remain viable and relevant. The logic being used to shoot down the Chosen is the same sort of logic that supports ideas like pure Communism on paper. The logic looks nice, but utterly fails to take into account reality and human nature, even if this is a fantasy reality with fictional characters. Not every little last factor in life can be predicted and decided by neat little laws and formulas. In a complex system a tiny effect can cause huge ripples. For example the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I called on the western countries in Europe to help repel the Turks. Little did he expect that his call to arms would form into the first of many crusades. Eventually, a few crusades later, the crusader forces even sieged and overcame Constantinople in order to procure supplies for their campaigns. A call for help, eventually came back and harmed the people who asked for help in the first place. How's that for unexpected?
Ripe 10-03-06, 05:36 PM	Leaning back, doing nothing and letting innocents and good adventurers die even though you are perfectly capable of helping them is XG for you? Yes. If you're an adventurer that mean that you look for trouble. And it's your's problem if you got involved in something you can't handle. Not El's or anyone elses. It's El's problem only if he hire that adventurer. Which he does not do. And as for innocents... a wise man said: "Let he who is without sin throw the first rock."
Derren S. 10-03-06, 05:41 PM	So it is the adventurers fault when they try to save innocents by thwarting an evil plot? That doesn't really make sense.
Ripe 10-03-06, 05:53 PM	So it is the adventurers fault when they try to save innocents by thwarting an evil plot? That doesn't really make sense. If it was more than they could handle? Yes. Everyone should know their limits [and most reasonable people do]. And if you see a situation you can't handle you call for help. Plain and simple. If you went in and try to handle it yourself [knowing you can't handle it] than you're directly responsible for bad outcome. Think police forces here. Things uniformed patrol can handle themselves, they do. Otherwise they call for back-up [either other patrols, detectives or SWAT]. They don't try to handle things they can't handle themselves.
Karsus the Mad 10-03-06, 07:06 PM	Wow. Last time I was online this thread wasn't 8 pages long....I was online not too many hours ago....Derren, I'm truly curious. Why do you think El can do it all?Is it his level? He's not that high. I've had higher. To you, personally, my advice: Derren, stop playing FR. There really isn't anything more to say. You simply refuse common sense. You simply refuse the logic that one person can't do all. You refuse the fact that Elminster is 29th level. You refuse the fact that there's a LOT of other evil/neutral npc's of higher level that would thwart him. You ignore the fact that the chosen of Mystra are limited as to what they can do. You ignore anything that doesn't support your claims......otherwise you would have responded to my previous inquieries.
Sapp 10-03-06, 07:33 PM	Elminster is 35th level, not 29th level (anymore). As The Simbul kindly pointed out to me, those 3 Cleric levels allow him to take the Initiate of Mystra feat, allowing him to cast in antimagic fields and dead-magic zones.
Fanatic66 10-03-06, 08:56 PM	Elminster might not be able to stop every evil threat, but I do agree with Derren. A good person with powers like Elminster, especially Elminster, shouldn't sit around and watch as innocents die. If it was more than they could handle? Yes. Everyone should know their limits [and most reasonable people do]. And if you see a situation you can't handle you call for help. Plain and simple. If you went in and try to handle it yourself [knowing you can't handle it] than you're directly responsible for bad outcome. Think police forces here. Things uniformed patrol can handle themselves, they do. Otherwise they call for back-up [either other patrols, detectives or SWAT]. They don't try to handle things they can't handle themselves. What limits are you talking about Ripe? Not to be mean, but doesn't El have a dozen epic level friends, not counting the fact he's a Chosen? They can pretty much handle any super evil threat that the regular people can't.
Krash 10-03-06, 09:19 PM	Okay, this is a cyclic thread but I wanted to give you all some points to ponder on: 1. The bad guys are just as powerful as the good guys. 2. The bad guys are just as smart as the good guys. 3. The bad guys have as many resources as the good guys. 4. There are big and powerful good/bad guys and small and not-so powerful good/bad guys. 5. There is a lot of good guy stuff happening in Faerűn at any one time. 6. There is a lot of bad guy stuff happening in Faerűn at any one time. 7. The good guys don't know everything the bad guys are doing and vice versa. 8. Both the good and bad guys are probing the weaknesses of each other on a constant basis. 9. Both the good and bad guys are trying to cover their activities with layers of secrecy and subterfuge. 10. When the good and bad guys or their minions clash overtly or directly, they are always concerned about what's happening offstage or somewhere else. 11. They like to catch each other out with the stuff that is happening offstage and somewhere else. 12. There is always something happening offstage or somewhere else. 13. Both the good and bad guys will sacrifice people and resources to achieve their goals and aims. 14. Both sides strive for ultimate victory over their opponent. 15. The smart ones on both sides realise that ultimate victory is likely unachievable. 16. The smart ones on both sides focus on realistic goals and achievements. 17. They usually cancel each other out. 18. But they keep trying nonetheless. Looking over their shoulder and burdened with suspicion bordering on paranoia as they go. 19. Nothing is simple or straightforward in this good/bad guy conflict. 20. Elminster is a slave to the above truths. -- George Krashos
Karsus the Mad 10-03-06, 09:37 PM	Elminster is 35th level, not 29th level (anymore). As The Simbul kindly pointed out to me, those 3 Cleric levels allow him to take the Initiate of Mystra feat, allowing him to cast in antimagic fields and dead-magic zones. I meant 29th caster level, which is the only level in which he can do anything because frankly a 1st level fighter, 2nd level rogue, 3rd level cleric can't do squat in comparision to this conversation:) Krash....I love you...you do know that right? Krashpotatos........hmmmmmmm And no that's not demeaning or insulting. I've mixed my favorite food with my favorite FR designer. It's a compliment....period.
Sapp 10-03-06, 10:03 PM	Arguably, those 3 Cleric levels and an Initiate of Mystra feat would help Elminster a lot. The feat, which I agree with the Simbul that he should have, allows him to cast within an antimagic field. Just because the designers didn't want too many interdependencies between sourcebooks (or simply the designers lacked the sourcebooks at the time), doesn't mean Elminster should be "punished". Those 3 Cleric Levels along with the Initiate of Mystra feat give Elminster a huge boost in power and versatility against enemy casters, forcing enemies to rely only on Epic spells. (Most of them can't cast more than 1 or 2 Epic spells per day.)
createvmind 10-03-06, 10:44 PM	This is going nowhere and is kind of an slight to the person who created this wonderful world to constantly question why this hasn't and that shouldn't and so on and so on.That's directed to the complainers not those who have tried to shed common sense and urged going with the flow and spirit on a mans creation.:( :(
Renvale999 10-04-06, 09:21 AM	Elminster=Plot Device Plot Device=Something that can help the PC's along but not do everything for them Something that can help the PC's along but not do everything for them=A huge help for the DM A huge help for the DM=Priceless :fight!:
Ripe 10-04-06, 09:54 AM	Elminster might not be able to stop every evil threat, but I do agree with Derren. A good person with powers like Elminster, especially Elminster, shouldn't sit around and watch as innocents die. Who said he would? El is CG, he's not LG so that he must actively fight evil. Sure, if he become aware of some threat he might do something about it himself or he might inform a local Lord an let him handle it himself [depending on the threat]. And that is only IF he become aware of it. And IF he doesn't consider that impending threat to actually be good for that community [he never stoped Zhentarim invasions of Shadowdale before they reached Shadowdale, so recently when Zhentarim attacked and he wasn't there, people of Shadowdale were perfectly capable of defending themselves and repeling Zhents to give just one example] What limits are you talking about Ripe? Not to be mean, but doesn't El have a dozen epic level friends, not counting the fact he's a Chosen? They can pretty much handle any super evil threat that the regular people can't. I wasn't talking about El there. I was talking about other adventurers who get killed while doing something El could do with ease.
BrennonGoldeye 10-04-06, 11:09 AM	Elminster might not be able to stop every evil threat, but I do agree with Derren. A good person with powers like Elminster, especially Elminster, shouldn't sit around and watch as innocents die. And he never would and to my knowledge never has. I'm starting to get a little over this arguement. El is one person. A powerful person, but just one. He can only do so much, and is wise enough to know when not to stick his nose in something that he can't stop. People die, good people, innocent people. If you try to save them all you will end up saving none. Let's have a RL example. Bill Gates. Richest man in the world 10 times over. He has given away 90% of his net worth multiple times. Didn't stop Darfur though. He could probably convince the Sudanese govt. to stop if he pulled enough strings. But he knows using his power in other ways(stopping malaria, HIV, and fighting the hunger caused by climate change) will be much more positive in the long run. No doubt he sometimes thinks about all the innocent people dying over there. Wounds his heart just like it does mine. But you can only do what you can do. Use your resources where they will do the most good with what you have. Does this make sense at all? Elminster=Plot Device Plot Device=Something that can help the PC's along but not do everything for them Something that can help the PC's along but not do everything for them=A huge help for the DM A huge help for the DM=Priceless Amen brother(or sister).:) This is going nowhere and is kind of an slight to the person who created this wonderful world to constantly question why this hasn't and that shouldn't and so on and so on.That's directed to the complainers not those who have tried to shed common sense and urged going with the flow and spirit on a mans creation. Showing so much passion, even if they are railing against, shows how much they value what was created. Just as long as it doesn't get nasty I'm all for it.:) I meant 29th caster level, which is the only level in which he can do anything because frankly a 1st level fighter, 2nd level rogue, 3rd level cleric can't do squat in comparision to this conversation I beg to differ. It makes all the difference. Put one Archmage who can't cast spells in antimagic or deadmagic VS. one who can do both. Ouch, now it becomes painfully obvious why he is still around. Guess he didn't forget all the things he learned in the past. No arguement about "this skill hasn't been used in centuries" here. It's like a Fighter having the ability to bypass damage reduction. Makes him a killing machine amongst his own kind.;)
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-04-06, 03:33 PM	:nonono: You people are making me very sad. You have no idea what a level 35 character is capable of. I'm going to have to go to Character Optimization for help on showing you all exactly why Elminster can challenge the rest of Faerun and stand a decent change of winning.
Ripe 10-04-06, 03:43 PM	:nonono: You people are making me very sad. You have no idea what a level 35 character is capable of. I'm going to have to go to Character Optimization for help on showing you all exactly why Elminster can challenge the rest of Faerun and stand a decent change of winning. CO boards are irrelevant. Those powergamers over there don't let logic and common sense [to say nothing about existing lore] stand in their way when creating their abominable builds. Please do not polute this discussion with their creations. Besides, we all very good idea what Elminster [not some CO boards version of him] can and cannot do. Well, most of us have.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-04-06, 03:54 PM	If you think that the Wizards and Powerful Casters of Faerun would logically think that the best tactic is to play Firemen, that is "Waiting until something bad happens, and then correcting it," Then you Sir are living in ignorance :D I am making a thread over there to help formulate ideas and remind me of Just what is possible with spells. The Tactics will be completely sound, and will be using Tactics any wizard could. No Weird Books. No Broken Mechanics. Pure Unadulterated Proof of Power of what ANY Faerun Wizard could (and should and would) do.
Dark Wizard 10-04-06, 03:57 PM	:nonono: You people are making me very sad. You have no idea what a level 35 character is capable of. I'm going to have to go to Character Optimization for help on showing you all exactly why Elminster can challenge the rest of Faerun and stand a decent change of winning. As noted multiple times before. There are dozens of other beings within a few levels of Elminster in the setting, many with higher levels actually. (Level inflation/power creep, now that makes me sad.) If you're going to apply a Character Optimization makeover for Elminster, you should do it for all of them. I'm pretty sure the CO boards people will have a lot more fun messing with a 41st level wizard undead Elder Brain, or a 32nd/46th level ultra-lich, or a 36th level necromancer demilich turned elfmaiden, or several CR 30-40 dragons.
Ripe 10-04-06, 04:09 PM	If you think that the Wizards and Powerful Casters of Faerun would logically think that the best tactic is to play Firemen, that is "Waiting until something bad happens, and then correcting it," Then you Sir are living in ignorance :D Where did I said that? If anything, when I think of Wizards and Powerful Casters of Faerun I think of our worlds Cold War - all the powers keeping each other in check knowing that any confrontation between them would lead to their total destruction. I am making a thread over there to help formulate ideas and remind me of Just what is possible with spells. The Tactics will be completely sound, and will be using Tactics any wizard could. No Weird Books. No Broken Mechanics. Pure Unadulterated Proof of Power of what ANY Faerun Wizard could (and should and would) do. If you're going to stay within El's existing lore [Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5 or just simple Wizard 24/Archmage 5 or even Wizard 29] with no Epic Spellcasting then by all means, do it. But like Dark Wizard pointed out, if you do it for El, you should do it for all the others who are even higher level than El [Iolaum, Larloch, Shoon VII, etc.]
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-04-06, 04:12 PM	Oh, and that's fine. They can use the same tactics that Elminster wants to use. Here's the thing though, At high levels you can go around With your 200 or so Simulacrums, and however many Eidolons that you wish. All the armies in the world do not matter. Szass Tam is building a gigantic Undead Horde correct? Utterly Useless. Any Mage worth his salt could destroy every single one of them in a matter of rounds. Tuigan Horde? Who Cares. Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt. Ooh a plot to have the Red Wizards take over a city? Divination, Teleport, Boom Boom Boom. Oh, a plot to Open a Gate of Demons onto the Prime? Time Stop, Boom Boom, Plot Ended. Here's my point. With Simulacrums, Mindlink, Superior Invisibility, ect., any wizard can for all intents BE EVerywhere. There's no reason that he wouldn't stop every plot. And, so what does that leave us with then? The only real antagonists, are the Wizards themselves, and how they would fare against each other in a fight. The implied excuse that the wizards keep each other in check, and none of them act for fear of destruction is inane. Each one of them can send off their clones to potentially die if really need be. I'm trying to turn this argument away from Hypothetical and Logical Arguments, and actually Find out EXACTLY WHAT WIZARDS AT THESE LEVELS ARE CAPABLE OF, numerically, and by the rules. I've heard your arguments, and now I want to personally do some investigation (with others' help), and see what comes up. edit: Another Thought Came To me. Cast Time Stop. Divination Spell. Teleport. Boom Boom Boom. Teleport.
Ripe 10-04-06, 04:33 PM	Oh, and that's fine. They can use the same tactics that Elminster wants to use. Here's the thing though, At high levels you can go around With your 200 or so Simulacrums, and however many Eidolons that you wish. Considering that casting time for single Simulacrum is 12 hours, that it cost you 100 XP per HD/level [minimum of 1000 XP] to create one and that it can have only 1/2 of the original creature's HD/level [so each one of El's Simulacrums would have 17 or 18 levels (PHB don't say if you round fractions up or down, but I'd rule that you round them down) and would cost El 1700 or 1800 XP] they would make one very expensive army [then again having bunch of high level "slaves" is allways good if you can afford the XP cost]. I don't know what Eidolon is, where did you get that? All the armies in the world do not matter. Szass Tam is building a gigantic Undead Horde correct? Utterly Useless. Any Mage worth his salt could destroy every single one of them in a matter of rounds. Tuigan Horde? Who Cares. Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt. Ooh a plot to have the Red Wizards take over a city? Divination, Teleport, Boom Boom Boom. Oh, a plot to Open a Gate of Demons onto the Prime? Time Stop, Boom Boom, Plot Ended. You'd need something much more powerfull than Lightning bolts to deal with Tuigan Horde, allowing teleportation to locations you never visited is one of D&D's greatest atrocity [I know it was the same during 2nd ed days, but those wizards had only a fraction of hp's todays wizards have] and you're damage dealing spells don't deal damage while you're Time stoped [you can cast damage dealing spells with duration longer than Time stop and they would deal damage once Time stop ends. But that require either Delay spell metamagic feat or spells with duration of several rounds - no instantanous spells]. Here's my point. With Simulacrums, Mindlink, Superior Invisibility, ect., any wizard can for all intents BE EVerywhere. There's no reason that he wouldn't stop every plot. I allready pointed out that Simulacrums are not really good option due to spells limitation. And, so what does that leave us with then? The only real antagonists, are the Wizards themselves, and how they would fare against each other in a fight. The implied excuse that the wizards keep each other in check, and none of them act for fear of destruction is inane. Each one of them can send off their clones to potentially die if really need be. Well, we have a very good example what happen when someone have more than one clone of himself active - Manshoon Wars. I'm trying to turn this argument away from Hypothetical and Logical Arguments, and actually Find out EXACTLY WHAT WIZARDS AT THESE LEVELS ARE CAPABLE OF, numerically, and by the rules. I've heard your arguments, and now I want to personally do some investigation (with others' help), and see what comes up. Which is the main problem with CO boards - they ignore LOGIC and care only about numbers.
BrianCritchley 10-04-06, 04:44 PM	another thing to keep in mind is that Elminister at the end of the day DOES serve a godess. it may well be that in some cases his hands are tied. "no old rogue, I know you can teleport in and destroy the mad Wizard Merlac, but I don't wish you to do so, for if this adventureing party stops him instead Merlac will develop a few spells before they stop him, spells said adventurers will get out into the open, and the party wizard of the adventurers will be inspired to create a few new spells of his own"
Raelan_Harpell 10-04-06, 04:46 PM	All the armies in the world do not matter. Szass Tam is building a gigantic Undead Horde correct? Utterly Useless. Any Mage worth his salt could destroy every single one of them in a matter of rounds. Untrue. First off, skeletons and zombies aren't the only undead in the game; throw in some nightshades, banshees, various level-draining undead, and see how well that mage fares. Oh, and let's not forget Tam himself, who is also undead. He can do everything that the good-aligned high level mage can, and has an undead army to back him up on top of that. Tuigan Horde? Who Cares. Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt. This one I might grant you, depending on whether or not the Horde had clerics (they hated arcane magic, so they wouldn't have had mages); it's possible for a mage to fly up above and stay out of bowshot, so the conventional forces of the Horde wouldn't be able to defend themselves. However, the Tuigan Horde was so large that the mage couldn't have smashed it in one go; one full load of spells wouldn't have been anywhere near enough, especially if they spread out to make it hard to catch groups of them in area spells. Ooh a plot to have the Red Wizards take over a city? Divination, Teleport, Boom Boom Boom. You forgot the "Boom Boom Boom" coming back at the good-aligned mage. The Red Wizards are also mages, and quite a number of them are epic level. One 29th level mage vs. twenty 5th level mages, twelve 10th level mages, seven 15th level mages, four 20th level mages, and two 25th level mages...now tell me who's going to win in a straight-up confrontation? Oh, a plot to Open a Gate of Demons onto the Prime? Time Stop, Boom Boom, Plot Ended. Those balors may have something to say about that, and the mariliths, vrocks, etc. Oh, and wtf?!!! That balor has 15 levels of sorcerer?!!! Here's my point. With Simulacrums, Mindlink, Superior Invisibility, ect., any wizard can for all intents BE EVerywhere. There's no reason that he wouldn't stop every plot. There are quite a lot of them; the primary reason is that the other side can use those, too. I don't know if you've been in games where the DM has sugar-coated the enemies or not, but in a realistic situation (as realistic as fantasy gets, anyway), the enemy will use all of the resources at his disposal to succeed, so don't expect him not to use his own simulacrums, eidolons, planar bindings, and the like. Moreover, in order to stop any given plot, the wizard in question must first know about the plot. Even assuming the mage is willing to weaken his combat ability by casting multiple divination spells each day, he still wouldn't be able to sniff out half the plots and intrigues going on in Waterdeep alone. In addition, mind blank offers excellent protection against such divinations, and the enemy is sure to have it as well if he or she is of sufficiently high level. And, so what does that leave us with then? The only real antagonists, are the Wizards themselves, and how they would fare against each other in a fight. The implied excuse that the wizards keep each other in check, and none of them act for fear of destruction is inane. Each one of them can send off their clones to potentially die if really need be. Ever heard of trap the soul or soul binding? For that matter, have you heard of imprisonment and temporal stasis? I'm trying to turn this argument away from Hypothetical and Logical Arguments, and actually Find out EXACTLY WHAT WIZARDS AT THESE LEVELS ARE CAPABLE OF, numerically, and by the rules. I've heard your arguments, and now I want to personally do some investigation (with others' help), and see what comes up. I know quite well what they're capable of. I have a 28th level mage that started at 1st level somewhere around 1994. edit: Another Thought Came To me. Cast Time Stop. Divination Spell. Teleport. Boom Boom Boom. Teleport. And what's to stop the enemy from doing the exact same thing to the good-aligned mage? Oh, wait - the same thing that stops you from doing it to him: mind blank.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-04-06, 04:50 PM	I'm not ignoring logic at all. If there's a problem with my ideas, then tell me, and help me improve upon them. I was making a joke about lightning bolt. (it's from an old internet LARP Video). Just cast Fireball, oh 10 or 20 times. If that's not enough, grab your Wand and Blast some more. When you're out of spells, go sleep for 8 hours, and come back and do the same thing. Heck! Summon a Balor to do your dirty work for you while you sleep :D As far as simulacrums go. There's a feat which turns Spell casting times down considerably. any number of minutes becomes 1 minute, and any number of hours becomes 1 hour. So now, Simulacrum takes 1 hour to cast. There's an Epic Rod called the rod of excellent magic out there that supplies 2000 free Xp for you every day. So heck, get 2 or three of these. And make 2-3 Simulacrums per day :) There's no reason that Manshoon's clones would have had to fight each other. What happend went against the wording of the Clone Spell. Even then, he could easily have put Domination items on his clones. Which is the main problem with CO boards - they ignore LOGIC and care only about numbers. A very sad assumption. You should read the Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization.
Dark Wizard 10-04-06, 04:55 PM	Provided that the different sides of the conflict have similar resources and spells (and they do). For every clone/simulacrum/etc. that Elminster has, some other similarly powerful being has one as well. So again we're back to the Cold War dynamic. Elminster builds a nuke, his enemies do the same. More or less, for every action that Elminister makes, someone (not always evil, could be neutral or good) will make a countermove or just simply compensate. When a major move is made when these archmages are caught off guard or have to force a hasty counter, we get novels, short stories and sourcebooks to tell us an account of what happened, or to a lesser extent RSE.
Aaron L 10-04-06, 04:56 PM	Everything that the God Guys can do, the Bad Guys can do as well, and probably more effeciently because they dont care about the reppurcussions on others.
Raelan_Harpell 10-04-06, 05:03 PM	I was making a joke about lightning bolt. (it's from an old internet LARP Video). Just cast Fireball, oh 10 or 20 times. If that's not enough, grab your Wand and Blast some more. OHNOES! The enemy is wearing a ring of energy immunity! All of your elemental-based attacks are now worthless! When you're out of spells, go sleep for 8 hours, and come back and do the same thing. Heck! Summon a Balor to do your dirty work for you while you sleep :D Wait, did you just say you went to sleep? -insert evil grin here- As far as simulacrums go. There's a feat which turns Spell casting times down considerably. any number of minutes becomes 1 minute, and any number of hours becomes 1 hour. So now, Simulacrum takes 1 hour to cast. There's an Epic Rod called the rod of excellent magic out there that supplies 2000 free Xp for you every day. So heck, get 2 or three of these. And make 2-3 Simulacrums per day :) And what feat would that be? I don't recall ever having seen something of that nature. Are you, perhaps, drawing from a d20 supplement that is not canon? Oh, and you do know that a successful greater dispelling, reaving dispel, or superb dispelling will get rid of the simulacrum instantly, right? And that a Mordenkainen's disjunction will do it instantly and without fail? There's no reason that Manshoon's clones would have had to fight each other. What happend went against the wording of the Clone Spell. They weren't normal clones; they were stasis clones. And yes, they weren't supposed to do that. This begs the question of who or what caused it to happen; it wouldn't surprise me if one of those "uber good-aligned NPCs" you keep talking about were responsible for it. Imagine that person's chagrin when the clones' instinctive need to kill each other ended up causing a lot of collateral damage and deaths in the process. The Law of Unintended Consequences and Murphy's Law don't cease to work just because it's a fantasy setting. Even then, he could easily have put Domination items on his clones. Domination items on his clones? SWEET! That would've been a boon to his enemies; they could twist the magic to their own purposes and end up controlling Manshoon(s).
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-04-06, 05:32 PM	And what feat would that be? I don't recall ever having seen something of that nature. Are you, perhaps, drawing from a d20 supplement that is not canon? Or maybe it's the Metamagic Feat Rapid Spell from Complete Divine :) Provided that the different sides of the conflict have similar resources and spells (and they do). For every clone/simulacrum/etc. that Elminster has, some other similarly powerful being has one as well. So again we're back to the Cold War dynamic. Elminster builds a nuke, his enemies do the same. More or less, for every action that Elminister makes, someone (not always evil, could be neutral or good) will make a countermove or just simply compensate. When a major move is made when these archmages are caught off guard or have to force a hasty counter, we get novels, short stories and sourcebooks to tell us an account of what happened, or to a lesser extent RSE. And this is a reasonable thing to say. What I believe is, and I want everyone to understand, is that there's a tactic out there, that can't be countered. That basically the first person to use it is the winner. That's what I'm trying to find because I think it exists. And, here is where I need you all's help. Killing people within a Time Stop is not Difficult. Just Get Delay Spell. There are also other things that you can do especially well in a time stop that I cannot think of currently. Those balors may have something to say about that, and the mariliths, vrocks, etc. Oh, and wtf?!!! That balor has 15 levels of sorcerer?!!! That's fine. They'll all still get owned. You forgot the "Boom Boom Boom" coming back at the good-aligned mage. The Red Wizards are also mages, and quite a number of them are epic level. One 29th level mage vs. twenty 5th level mages, twelve 10th level mages, seven 15th level mages, four 20th level mages, and two 25th level mages...now tell me who's going to win in a straight-up confrontation? The Only Threats are the 15th level and up Mages. Elminster can easily beat all the rest. The 20th level and 25th level mages can probably be dealt with considering the ease of use of the Time Stop Teleport Delayed Blast Teleport Tactics. Elminster never needs fear a Boom Boom Boom in return. His only worry is making sure that his booms are enough to destroy his enemies. This one I might grant you, depending on whether or not the Horde had clerics (they hated arcane magic, so they wouldn't have had mages); it's possible for a mage to fly up above and stay out of bowshot, so the conventional forces of the Horde wouldn't be able to defend themselves. However, the Tuigan Horde was so large that the mage couldn't have smashed it in one go; one full load of spells wouldn't have been anywhere near enough, especially if they spread out to make it hard to catch groups of them in area spells. If the Tuigan Horde had high level clerics, they're as good as dead anyway. Elminster can do all of this Invisibly and within 6 seconds. Before they can react, he's gone. Yes, one load of spells wouldn't do it. But several would. And, I think its very demoralizing to troops when 11 fireballs come out of the sky from nowhere killing 1/8 of your army every time. Untrue. First off, skeletons and zombies aren't the only undead in the game; throw in some nightshades, banshees, various level-draining undead, and see how well that mage fairs. Oh, and let's not forget Tam himself, who is also undead. He can do everything that the good-aligned high level mage can, and has an undead army to back him up on top of that. He can still own them (referring to Army). They're dangerous true, but all of their choice attacks are made useless with hit and run tactics. Similarly, ability drain, negative levels, ect. are made useless with the items that Elminster will have. They weren't normal clones; they were stasis clones. And yes, they weren't supposed to do that. This begs the question of who or what caused it to happen; it wouldn't surprise me if one of those "uber good-aligned NPCs" you keep talking about were responsible for it. Imagine that person's chagrin when the clones awoke with an instinctive need to kill each other and ended up causing a lot of collateral damage and deaths in the process. The Law of Unintended Consequences and Murphy's Law don't cease to work just because it's a fantasy setting. Well yes, I'm trying to make the point that the books cheat. The Simbul has treated Balors as Bowling Pins in the past, and is utterly ridiculous :yuck: And so anything that the author doesn't personally like or is contradicted elsewhere, or doesn't even make that much sense is ignored. OHNOES! The enemy is wearing a ring of energy immunity! All of your elemental-based attacks are now worthless! I find it unlikely that members of the Horde would be wearing rings of Energy Immunity. In any Case Searing Spell Takes care of Any Arguments.
Raelan_Harpell 10-04-06, 06:12 PM	Or maybe it's the Metamagic Feat Rapid Spell from Complete Divine :) Good to know. Still, the problems with simulacrums stand. And, here is where I need you all's help. Killing people within a Time Stop is not Difficult. Just Get Delay Spell. There are also other things that you can do especially well in a time stop that I cannot think of currently. The problem with time stop is that the duration is random. As such, you cannot know exactly when it will end. If you use the maximize spell feat, it's do-able, but it does require a 12th level spell slot. Even as such, it won't go off immediately when the spell ends; they will go off on your next action. During that time, the person you're trying to target can teleport away, move out of range, or whatever. This makes time stop more useful for casting defensive enchantments or creating mobile effects such as Mordenkainen's sword, the various Bigby's hand spells, sphere of ultimate destruction, and the like. Of course, when faced with an arsenal of such magics, the intended target will likely use his one action before your spells can attack to teleport out, wait out their durations, and return, thus nullifying the effectiveness of your time stop and attacking you when you're weakened. And, even if the tactic worked, what's to stop someone from using it against Elminster? Nothing, assuming they know where he is (the same as Elminster has to know where they are; mind blank foils all divinations). EDIT: Another thing to note is that mages only have so many greater teleport spells they can memorize each day and still be effective. That's fine. They'll all still get owned. Not true at all. On an individual basis that's quite possible, but as a group they'll force the high-level mage to flee (assuming he doesn't die on the first round). They can send enough spells, spell-like abilities, and physical attacks your mage's way to saturate his defenses. That's the thing about high-level play - a large number of powerful but lower-level opponents will generally succeed against a single uber-powerful character through sheer attrition. The Only Threats are the 15th level and up Mages. Elminster can easily beat all the rest. The 20th level and 25th level mages can probably be dealt with considering the ease of use of the Time Stop Teleport Delayed Blast Teleport Tactics. Elminster never needs fear a Boom Boom Boom in return. His only worry is making sure that his booms are enough to destroy his enemies. The time stop idea runs into the same problem I mentioned above. If, instead, he stays to fight, even the low level mages can whittle away at him. While he may be immune to some of their attacks, they can still put out enough spells combined to saturate his defenses and take them down. If the higher-level Red Wizards delay their actions in the round until that happens, then they'll be facing an Elminster who is, in effect, defenseless (i.e. spell turning and Elminster's epuration can only stop so many spells, and neither is effective against area effects). Moreover, the Red Wizards aren't likely to clump together to provide Elminster with an easy target; they'll spread out to make his attacks less effective. As for never needing to fear a "Boom Boom Boom" in return, that's only true because the tactic doesn't work; the game rules don't allow it. The delayed spells won't take effect until the caster's next action after the time stop ends, which will allow the targets all one action to react and get the hell out of the area (easily done, even if it's just done by running out of the area with a full-round action). If the Tuigan Horde had high level clerics, they're as good as dead anyway. Elminster can do all of this Invisibly and within 6 seconds. Before they can react, he's gone. Yes, one load of spells wouldn't do it. But several would. And, I think its very demoralizing to troops when 11 fireballs come out of the sky from nowhere killing 1/8 of your army every time. As I said, vs. the Tuigan Horde it would probably have been workable. If they'd had high-level clerics, however, one miracle would've solved the "we can't see who's attacking us!" problem. Also, IIRC, the Horde was 100,000 warriors strong. That being the case, Elminster couldn't take out anywhere near 1/8th of them in one go in the manner you describe. He can still own them (referring to Army). They're dangerous true, but all of their choice attacks are made useless with hit and run tactics. Similarly, ability drain, negative levels, ect. are made useless with the items that Elminster will have. But Elminster won't be able to use those hit-and-run tactics once Szass Tam hits him with a dimensional anchor or dimensional lock. In regards to Elminster's items, those can be nullified rather effectively with a simple targeted dispel effect (i.e. suppressed). I find it unlikely that members of the Horde would be wearing rings of Energy Immunity. In any Case Searing Spell Takes care of Any Arguments. I never said the Tuigan would be wearing one, as they really aren't magically-focused. However, it would not be surprising to find someone like Szass Tam, Manshoon, Telamont Tanthul, the Necroqysar Shoon, Larloch, Shangalar the Black, the Netherese liches of the Host Tower of the Arcane, or any one of a thousand other uber-level evil NPCs wearing one. As for Searing Spell, what's the source and effects? I'm assuming it's like flame strike, where half the damage results from divine power. If that's the case, it would only work with divine spells and, thus, is not a point of argument. EDIT: I just found the "Piercing Cold" metamagic feat in my copy of Frostburn, so I'm guessing it's similar. Against creatures immune to the damage type, spells affected by Piercing Cold do only half damage...before their saving throws. So yes, you can inflict damage with it, but it's going to be pretty crappy. One more point: you can bring up feats as counter-arguments, but, unlike wizard spells, each character has only so many feats available and once chosen they're set in stone. Once you hit that limit, you don't have any more wiggle room.
Derren S. 10-04-06, 06:25 PM	As for Searing Spell, what's the source and effects? I'm assuming it's like flame strike, where half the damage results from divine power. If that's the case, it would only work with divine spells and, thus, is not a point of argument. Searing spell is a metamagic feat (+1) which, applied to a fire spell, lets you ignore all fire resistence and lets you do 1/2 damage to fire immun creatures.
BrianCritchley 10-04-06, 06:47 PM	yet again I reiterate, if you don't like elminsiter get rid of him, or turn him into a 7th level sage. in fact make ALL the characters 7th level or less! that way only your chars can be the true heros saving the world from everything :rolleyes: or better yet why not go play ebberon which has just such a set up.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-04-06, 07:30 PM	Good to know. Still, the problems with simulacrums stand. Yes, they can be dispelled, and yea, they can be Disjunctioned. But that's ok. ;) They're capable of hit and run tactics just like good ol Eliminster. They might need a couple of magic items to help, but that's still alright. Ooh, and remember that like Elminster these will be Initiates of Mystra too. So, these Simulacrums will be in an Anti-Magic field and will be harder to defeat. The problem with time stop is that the duration is random. As such, you cannot know exactly when it will end. If you use the maximize spell feat, it's do-able, but it does require a 12th level spell slot. Even as such, it won't go off immediately when the spell ends; they will go off on your next action. During that time, the person you're trying to target can teleport away, move out of range, or whatever. This makes time stop more useful for casting defensive enchantments or creating mobile effects such as Mordenkainen's sword, the various Bigby's hand spells, sphere of ultimate destruction, and the like. Of course, when faced with an arsenal of such magics, the intended target will likely use his one action before your spells can attack to teleport out, wait out their durations, and return, thus nullifying the effectiveness of your time stop and attacking you when you're weakened. Well I've looked over Delayed Spell, and there is something to what you're saying. You choose whether this spell goes off 1-5 rounds later, and it goes off just a little bit before your turn. So, going off on the last round of time stop wouldn't do you any good. You'd have to teleport away on your last round of time stop, And then, they'd go, and then before your turn, the spells would kick off. That is true, and that is a weakness. But even then, it's still pretty good. He can cast all of these Spells Under Superior Invisibility (meaning he won't be seen, heard, smelt, or sensed with Blindsight), and then 6 seconds later, the unknowing person gets pelted. Indeed this is a really good 'Sneak Attack' tactic. I hope that you can agree it's pretty good. Even in combat it would be very useful. You could probably cast all these spells, and replace where you were with an illusion. I'm sure there are things that I'm not thinking of, help out here :cool: Oh yes, and as far as Spell slots. By this level Elminster has plenty of money for Metamagic Rods of Maximize, Empower, Quicken, ect. So he could easily maximize and Empower his Time Stop. And, even if the tactic worked, what's to stop someone from using it against Elminster? Nothing, assuming they know where he is (the same as Elminster has to know where they are; mind blank foils all divinations). EDIT: Another thing to note is that mages only have so many greater teleport spells they can memorize each day and still be effective. You are absolutely correct, there is nothing to prevent someone else from doing so :devil: Although Elminster will be inside an anti-magic field. Soooooooo, they'd have to work harder. Perhaps you could cast an Orb of Fire while under Time Stop. That's all that I could think of that his opponents could use effectively against him. Not true at all. On an individual basis that's quite possible, but as a group they'll force the high-level mage to flee (assuming he doesn't die on the first round). They can send enough spells, spell-like abilities, and physical attacks your mage's way to saturate his defenses. That's the thing about high-level play - a large number of powerful but lower-level opponents will generally succeed against a single uber-powerful character through sheer attrition. Well, Elminster will be inside an Anti-magic Field, and he would have used my time stop tactic (which does work, although it happens one round later than I'd like). He would have cast these spells while under superior invisibility, and they wouldn't have seen it coming. Before they could have done anything, he'd be gone. Even so, I invite you to use some Demons and Devils as presented in the Monster Manual to Challenge Elminster for a sample battle. Even if he wasn't under an anti-magic field, and didn't run away immediately, I don't see it happening. The time stop idea runs into the same problem I mentioned above. If, instead, he stays to fight, even the low level mages can whittle away at him. While he may be immune to some of their attacks, they can still put out enough spells combined to saturate his defenses and take them down. If the higher-level Red Wizards delay their actions in the round until that happens, then they'll be facing an Elminster who is, in effect, defenseless (i.e. spell turning and Elminster's epuration can only stop so many spells, and neither is effective against area effects). Moreover, the Red Wizards aren't likely to clump together to provide Elminster with an easy target; they'll spread out to make his attacks less effective. I really don't see the lower level mages whittling away at him. Elminster will benefit from Initiate of Mystra and will be in an Anti-Magic Field all day. Even if wasn't in an anti-magic field, Area spells don't mean much since he has Evasion. The only things I see working are Spells that are Fortitude/Will save for half (since Elminster doesn't have Mettle) or Orb of Fire with the Searing Spell Attatched. In the first case, they'll have to beat his Spell Resistance which should be at least 40 since he'll have a mantle of Spell Resistance, and I don't think the low level wizards can In the second case, the Orb of Fire would still have to hit him. Elminster will have a high Touch AC, secondly, he will be Blurred and have several Mirror Images, and Be Invisible :P I don't see the low level wizards being able to successfully dispel him. As far as the Higher spellcasters, my idea here is that Elminster could sneak in there and take out everyone one at a time, or if they were all clumped up, then sure, all of them. If he had to fight them all at once, and head on, then This tactic might have some problems since all of his enemies could run away. In that case he'd probably want to dimensional anchor them all, and then proceed to blast them. And yes, the 20th and 25th level casters could potentially dispel him at this point and cause some havoc. Although, they will have some trouble dispelling Elminster, and I still think the favorite to win is Elminster. At least we can both agree that the Tuigan Horde should have never been a threat whatsoever. :D But Elminster won't be able to use those hit-and-run tactics once Szass Tam hits him with a dimensional anchor or dimensional lock. In regards to Elminster's items, those can be nullified rather effectively with a simple targeted dispel effect (i.e. suppressed). Well, Elminster will be in an Anti-Magic Field all day, so these won't help. Even if he wasn't Dimensional Anchor would still have to hit elminster, he'd be invisible and be under Mirror Image, blur, ect. Elminster wouldn't let himself be within 20 ft. of Szass Tam for the express purpose of Dimensional lock not affecting him. One more point: you can bring up feats as counter-arguments, but, unlike wizard spells, each character has only so many feats available and once chosen they're set in stone. Once you hit that limit, you don't have any more wiggle room. You are very correct about that. Don't worry. Elminster has plenty of feats and I don't need that many anway :) Edit: I think I forgot to address your Mind Blank agrument. You are right about that. Unless Elminster knows from some other way where that wizard is, he can't teleport next to them and pull the trick off. Perhaps this means that Elminster needs to create a contingent of Simulacrums that will always be under Superior Invisibility and go scour the world. Perhaps there's some Divination spells from another book that I haven't discovered yet. Maybe those would hold a key.
Raelan_Harpell 10-04-06, 07:45 PM	Actually, when Elminster casts an anti-magic field, he has to beat his own caster level to cast spells while inside of it with the Initiate of Mystra feat. This means roughly half of his spells will fail; this runs a good chance of resulting in his death and/or dismemberment. Thus, the anti-magic field gimmick has its problems. Especially in the situation with demons, this could be a problem; demons are powerful physically as well as magically. A demon could run up and dismember him pretty effectively while he tries and fails to cast spells. Even worse, all of the magical items that would normally increase his AC would be ineffective while inside the anti-magic field, making him extremely vulnerable to physical attacks from even low-level opponents. The anti-magic field creates as many problems as it solves. Sure, he could cast defensive spells to boost his AC, but half of them would fail. Moreover, they'd use up spell slots, thus further lowering his combative ability. Also, one successful Mordenkainen's disjunction and his anti-magic field is gone, along with every other spell effect he had active and possibly some of his magical items. In regards to dimensional lock, it's a 20-foot radius, but isn't a personal effect; much like a fireball, it can be cast at a distance. Also, remember superior invisibility can be seen through with a true seeing spell and also with blindsense, which is granted by the second-level spell blindsight. In addition, the spell sparkles from Shining South is not specifically mentioned as being prevented from affecting someone protected by superior invisibility, though it might be reasonable to consider that it is prevented as well. However, even more than all of this, superior invisibility prevents the caster from issuing a sound, thus preventing spellcasting unless he's willing to increase the caster level by making it a silent spell or using a rod (and rods can affect only three spells per day). Basically, if Elminster did all this, it might work if Tymora favored him on the day in question, and it would use up so many of his spell slots that he'd be good for little else. If he was later attacked, that'd be it - he'd lose because almost all of his high-level spell slots would be used up. Again, this is assuming he was lucky in the first place; if his spells failed due to being in the field, there's a good chance he'd die horribly. EDIT: I have good reason to know about the anti-magic field info. My character can cast inside them, too, though at a cost. Take a look at the Lifespinner prestige class in my second post in here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7815).
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-04-06, 09:26 PM	Ah thanks for pointing out the little bit about Anti-Magic Field. Well, when you cast a spell, you can choose to cast it at a lower caster level. Thus Elminster's Anti-Magic field is easily beaten since he has a Caster level of 29 (could easily be more). and 11+11 DC to beat. And, he beats the DC on a 1, so he's ok. I forgot about the magic items, and you're right about that. That's fine too. He'll take the Feat Extraordinary Spell Aim (CA) and in his own anti-magic field, his items work normally. Since he's an Initiate of Mystra, he can cast spells out of this field just fine. You are correct that one mordenkainen's Disjunction is a Problem. Let's cast, oh, 6 or more Persisted Anti-magic fields :devil: You'll have to roll for each Anti-magic Field separately. Although I will admit, Caster levels do get pretty high around these levels. Well, I'm not really worried about Demons. Elminster will be Shapechanged into a Solar this whole time, so I think he'll do fine. Well, I'm looking at the Updated Version of Superior Invisibility from Spell Compendium right now. It turns out that now, it's 8th level and you're undetectable by Blindsight, Tremorsense, Blindsense, and Scent. So it's pretty good. I'll take a look at that spell from Shining South. EDIT: I have good reason to know about the anti-magic field info. My character can cast inside them, too, though at a cost. Take a look at the Lifespinner prestige class in my second post in here. Very good. I don't doubt at all that you know what you're talking about. And, thank you for discussing this with me :) Right now, the only things that I'm looking at that would worry Elminster, is another Wizard who has an anti-magic field. If Elminster needed to escape, he'd have to beat their caster level, and that could be a problem. Another problem would be someone grappling Elminster. Perhaps a Grappling Person with an Anti-Magic Field up. And of course the problem everyone faces. A Searing Orb of Fire. Barring this though, nearly every other tactic is bound to fail. Perhaps some more thought should be given to the possibilities of Counterspell and Dispel Magic. Help me out here people :D But perhaps you can all see now how Wizards are very good at Hit and Run Tactics, even with other Wizards out there in the world. If any Powerful Wizard Really Wanted, s/he could Destroy most of Toril without trouble.
Sapp 10-05-06, 12:01 AM	That is a non-issue. Elminster can simply used a Scribed Scroll of Antimagic Field at a very low caster level. You were saying about Elminster not being able to cast inside his own antimagic field?...
BrennonGoldeye 10-05-06, 07:25 AM	Gosh, I am sooooo glad I was AFK for the last 20 hours. I would have had a stroke by now.:rolleyes:
Renvale999 10-05-06, 08:43 AM	It's okay guys...it's okay....Elminster just died...a lvl 41 wizard Kobold just blew him to itty-bitty pieces and ate them for lunch.... Ya'll can stop argueing now.... LOL.
Ripe 10-05-06, 10:12 AM	And then someone wonder why I don't allow any of the Complete series books in my games...
Alediran 10-05-06, 10:14 AM	And then someone wonder why I don't allow any of the Complete series books in my games... It's only bad when a powergammer reads it, my char is an elemental savant from Complete Arcane and he is completely (pun intended) balanced with the other chars, in fact I think it's the most normal of the party.
Karsus the Mad 10-05-06, 10:35 AM	It's okay guys...it's okay....Elminster just died...a lvl 41 wizard Kobold just blew him to itty-bitty pieces and ate them for lunch.... How did you divine my levels?:shifty: I'm pretty sure my mantle protects against any and all such things...
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-05-06, 10:57 AM	And then someone wonder why I don't allow any of the Complete series books in my games... Um? Are you referring to Extraordinary Spell Aim? That feat is perfectly fine. In fact to use it properly you'd either want to have high +skill items or be a high level wizard anyway. Secondly, the feat Selective Spell from Shining South does the same thing, it just takes up a +1 slot, but without the high spellcraft requirements. The complete books are pretty balanced really, the only potentially unbalanced thing is Divine Metamagic, and that's not being used here. But really, complete Arcane and Adventurer are pretty darn good. They make the game have more options and be more fun. Why don't we all talk about the points I brought up and discuss them rather than go off-topic about how some of you may not like what I've said?
Ripe 10-05-06, 11:32 AM	Um? Are you referring to Extraordinary Spell Aim? That feat is perfectly fine. In fact to use it properly you'd either want to have high +skill items or be a high level wizard anyway. Secondly, the feat Selective Spell from Shining South does the same thing, it just takes up a +1 slot, but without the high spellcraft requirements. No, I'm refering them in general. ESM is not a problem [Archmages Mastery of Shaping ability does even more], but many other feats and spells are [all the Orb spells, most of the metamagic feats (especially Sudden ones), to name just a few of them]. Those books are treasure to any powergamer and allow so many broken builds that they pretty much ruined the game. Then again so did some of the 3E rules [namely gaining full HD's after level 10], but that's another rant.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-05-06, 01:15 PM	It's really easy to say "In general these books yield a lot of broken results" but it's much harder to actually quantify and list the problems. The Orb spells are powerful yes, but I think they're logical too. Wouldn't a Wizard want to make a spell that actually summoned a 'real' fire rather than a magical Fireball that was subject to spell Resistance? At any rate it still requires a successful attack roll The Sudden Metamagic feats are fairly underpowered in my opinion. They can only be used once per day. The Metamagic Rods can be used 3/day !! Those items completely negate the use out of those feats. I think most of the Metamagic feats are logical and balanced. The only potential abusive metamagic feat is Persistent Spell. I fully admit that I love that feat, but yes it has some potential abuse. I think it can still be handled well, however. And, it really only gets abusive when you persist spells that were meant to last one round (Wraithstrike for instance). Most of the spells are fine. Wraithstrike can be banned by the DM if it's a real problem. Broken builds? How about you show me some. The most powerful thing that you can get out of them is probably an Ur-Priest Sublime Chord Foluchan Lyrist. And, I will admit that it has some nicities, but overpowered? I really doubt it.
Derren S. 10-05-06, 01:20 PM	The Orb spells are powerful yes, but I think they're logical too. Nonmagical force...
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-05-06, 02:33 PM	:p If you have a problem accepting Orb of Force then don't use it then. I'm talking more about Orb of Cold/Fire/Electricty/Acid Is it possible to get back on topic?
Raelan_Harpell 10-05-06, 03:41 PM	Ah thanks for pointing out the little bit about Anti-Magic Field. Well, when you cast a spell, you can choose to cast it at a lower caster level. I don't recall seeing this specifically mentioned anywhere, though it's reasonable to assume it could be done. I forgot about the magic items, and you're right about that. That's fine too. He'll take the Feat Extraordinary Spell Aim (CA) and in his own anti-magic field, his items work normally. Since he's an Initiate of Mystra, he can cast spells out of this field just fine. As a DM, I disallow the use of Extraordinairy Spell Aim or Mastery of Shaping when concerning anti-magic fields; the combination has too much potential for abuse. Frankly, I think this one needs to be errata'd. Well, I'm looking at the Updated Version of Superior Invisibility from Spell Compendium right now. It turns out that now, it's 8th level and you're undetectable by Blindsight, Tremorsense, Blindsense, and Scent. Please tell me that was a joke.... Seriously, that's even more broken than the original spell was. Ah, well. Another spell to ban via house rules. But perhaps you can all see now how Wizards are very good at Hit and Run Tactics, even with other Wizards out there in the world. If any Powerful Wizard Really Wanted, s/he could Destroy most of Toril without trouble. If you just stick to the Core Rules it's not that bad. It's when you start adding stuff from all of the other books that it gets screwed up; some of the feats and spells really need a balance pass. I still can't believe they actually BOOSTED superior invisibility, but that's neither here nor there. I like a lot of the stuff from the other books, but much of it needs to be properly balanced.
Ripe 10-05-06, 04:47 PM	It's really easy to say "In general these books yield a lot of broken results" but it's much harder to actually quantify and list the problems. I think i did. I don't have enough space to list all the problems I have with Complete books. The Orb spells are powerful yes, but I think they're logical too. Wouldn't a Wizard want to make a spell that actually summoned a 'real' fire rather than a magical Fireball that was subject to spell Resistance? At any rate it still requires a successful attack roll First, it require ranged touch attack roll, not attack roll. Big difference. Second, like Derren pointed out: nonmagical force, very logical. Third, I might accept Fire and Acid, maybe even Lightning, but Sound and Cold? The Sudden Metamagic feats are fairly underpowered in my opinion. They can only be used once per day. The Metamagic Rods can be used 3/day !! Those items completely negate the use out of those feats. Oh, don't worry, I don't allow Metamagic rods in my games either. And I believe that they should not be introduced. They're just another gift for powergamers. I think most of the Metamagic feats are logical and balanced. The only potential abusive metamagic feat is Persistent Spell. I fully admit that I love that feat, but yes it has some potential abuse. I think it can still be handled well, however. And, it really only gets abusive when you persist spells that were meant to last one round (Wraithstrike for instance). That is true. But I got more problem with Rapid, Searing, and Repeat feats. Most of the spells are fine. Wraithstrike can be banned by the DM if it's a real problem. Depend on what you consider by most. Broken builds? How about you show me some. The most powerful thing that you can get out of them is probably an Ur-Priest Sublime Chord Foluchan Lyrist. And, I will admit that it has some nicities, but overpowered? I really doubt it. The builds are broken thanks to introduction of unbalanced feats and spells. PrC's are somewhat fine [even if I find Ur-Priest to be completely stupid idea].
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-05-06, 05:03 PM	I don't recall seeing this specifically mentioned anywhere, though it's reasonable to assume it could be done. It might not, but I'm glad that you agree with me that it should logically be possible. Even barring that I think it'd be plausible to make a uses per day item or use scrolls or something similar and get the same results. As a DM, I disallow the use of Extraordinairy Spell Aim or Mastery of Shaping when concerning anti-magic fields; the combination has too much potential for abuse. Frankly, I think this one needs to be errata'd. If you want to ban it from your games, that's your perogative. It will almost definitely not be errata'd. Elminster however, is not bound by your houserules :devil: It is both logical and plausable that a Wizard of Elminster's prestige would know of the power of an anti-magic field and would most certainly find a way to get the advantages without the disadvantages of one if it were possible. Please tell me that was a joke.... Seriously, that's even more broken than the original spell was. Ah, well. Another spell to ban via house rules. Well, we have invisibility which makes light waves travel through you as if you weren't there. We have Woodland stride which lets you go through brush as if it were normal. I'm sure there's a spell out there which makes you emit no scent. There's a spell which makes Dragons' Blindsight ineffective to you. Wouldn't it be plausable for there to be a spell which made you make no motion waves and made all motion waves go through you if you weren't there thus nullifying tremorsense, blindsight, and blindsense. Isn't it plausable for a spell to make you have no scent? It's a powerful spell sure, it's also a natural progression of what a Wizard would want to do and is high level to boot. (and true seeing can still see through it, so it's okay ;) ) If you just stick to the Core Rules it's not that bad. It's when you start adding stuff from all of the other books that it gets screwed up; some of the feats and spells really need a balance pass. I still can't believe they actually BOOSTED superior invisibility, but that's neither here nor there. I like a lot of the stuff from the other books, but much of it needs to be properly balanced. Well, take a look at the core rules and look at some of the spells there. Divine Power, Holy Word, ShapeChange, Animal Growth, Plant Growth. Have a bunch of Prayer Beads, and Ion Stone, and anything else that you can find to boost your caster level, and then Holy Word your enemies. Any reasonable Cr for your level is automatically killed with no saving throw. They only get spell resistance (if they have it). Try playing a Cleric or Druid, and see how balanced they are compared to everyone else in a Core only game. It's a myth that Core Rules are balanced. They're not. A lot of the stuff in the supplement books are just natural extensions of plausable ideas. Most of its just fine, and not unbalanced as you say. Trust me! We at the CO boards know what's unbalanced! I haven't even touched some of the possibilities! I think i did. I don't have enough space to list all the problems I have with Complete books. Alright, then if that's how you feel, and if you really believe that, then please list the feats, spells, and PrCs that you have a problem with. If you think that there's some really broken builds out there. Then please enlighten me. I don't think they exist. And we'll be talking in terms of a Core+Complete game. First, it require ranged touch attack roll, not attack roll. Big difference. Second, like Derren pointed out: nonmagical force, very logical. Third, I might accept Fire and Acid, maybe even Lightning, but Sound and Cold? Yes, a ranged touch attack. Did you expect your armor to save you? :D Alright, then we can agree that Fire and Acid Orbs are logical? :dancin: Oh, don't worry, I don't allow Metamagic rods in my games either. And I believe that they should not be introduced. They're just another gift for powergamers. Well at least you're consistent. Perhaps we can also agree that there is both powerful and ok stuff in Core and elsewhere? I don't have a problem with Metamagic rods, but I can see how someone would. That is true. But I got more problem with Rapid, Searing, and Repeat feats. You have a problem with Rapid Spell? What Wizard in his right mind would stand there and cast a spell for 12 hours! Well, Halaster maybe but he doesn't count! :tie: Isn't it logical that a Wizard might want to discover a way to cast his spells faster? I think so :$$: I don't see the fuss over Repeat Spell. It's a Poor Man's Quicken Spell. It's a reasonable effect for it's cost I believe Searing spell comes from Sandstorm at any rate and not the Complete Books. I had an aversion to when I first saw it, but then I thought about it, and realized that it took care of one of the flaws of D&D, absolute immunities. But, if you disagree with me about this feat, I can certainly understand. Depend on what you consider by most. The builds are broken thanks to introduction of unbalanced feats and spells. PrC's are somewhat fine [even if I find Ur-Priest to be completely stupid idea]. Well darn it! List out some spells you consider to be broken! List some Feats you consider to be broken! Show me how they make a broken build! And then, your argument will have some clout! :mage: :)
Ripe 10-05-06, 05:07 PM	You know, about that whole Initiate of Mystra thing... as a DM I would NEVER allow it to work on fields created by caster himself. In fact, I'm not sure if I'd allow Mystra's clergy to even cast that spell [without requiring Atonement]. I mean, Mystra is godess of Magic, it's in her interest that magic be spread and that all can use it. By casting AMF wizard actually prevent someone from using magic. The ability she give to her Chosen [Silverfire] can actually repair Dead Magic zones and disrupt AMF. Her clergy is pushed to develop new magic as soon as they are capable. Magisters gain Arcane Generosity ability [gaining XP each time they teach someone new spell or give away magic item he/she created] but that ability does not apply if spell tought [or magic item given away] is one that destroy magic or feed on it. Faiths & Pantheons give this as her dogma: Love magic for itself. Do not threat it just as a weapon to reshape the world to your will. True wisdom is to know when to use magic. Strive to use magic less as your power develop, for often the threat or promise of its use outstrips its actual performance. Magic is Art, the Gift of the Lady, and those who wield it are privilegded in the extreme. Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly while being mindfull of this. Use the Art deftly and efficiently, not carelessly and recklessly. Seek always to learn and create new magic. You know, I just realized that the first four lines [especially second line] actually explain why Elminster and other Chosen don't do everything. They try to follow their godesses dogma.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-05-06, 05:20 PM	If other people want to cast magic, Elminster's cool with that. If they feel a need to cast magic AT Elminster! They're gonna need some Atonement! :D Elminster and the other Chosen don't do anything because they're characters in a book and have programmed stupidity. :tongue:
Ripe 10-05-06, 05:38 PM	...Alright, then if that's how you feel, and if you really believe that, then please list the feats, spells, and PrCs that you have a problem with. If you think that there's some really broken builds out there. Then please enlighten me. I don't think they exist. And we'll be talking in terms of a Core+Complete game. Oh, I agree that there is some broken stuff in Core material [allowing teleport spell to work with locations you never visited is first that come to mind], but most problems I had in my game came from Complete stuff. I'd list a complete list of my complains when I got enough time. Yes, a ranged touch attack. Did you expect your armor to save you? :D Alright, then we can agree that Fire and Acid Orbs are logical? :dancin: Yes, we can agree that Fire, Acid and Lightning are logical. As for armor... well, their description said that they are only 3 inches across [7,62 cm]. Are you really telling me that something that small [the image in CA is artistic license, actual Orbs are much smaller] can bypass armor [well, electricity one can if it's metal armor, but that's about it]. Well at least you're consistent. Perhaps we can also agree that there is both powerful and ok stuff in Core and elsewhere? I don't have a problem with Metamagic rods, but I can see how someone would. Like you said, you don't have a problem with them, I do. Nothing we can do about it. You have a problem with Rapid Spell? What Wizard in his right mind would stand there and cast a spell for 12 hours! Well, Halaster maybe but he doesn't count! :tie: Isn't it logical that a Wizard might want to discover a way to cast his spells faster? I think so :$$: I don't have a problem with existance of the feat. My problem is that the increase in spell slot is the same regardless of the time reduction. I think that reducing something that allready last 1 full round to 1 standard action is a lot easier than reducing something with casting time of several hours to 1 hour. If they use different level increase [say, +1 for full round to standard, +2 for rounds to 1 round, +4 for minutes to 1 minute, and +6 for hours to 1 hour] I'd be fine with it. I don't see the fuss over Repeat Spell. It's a Poor Man's Quicken Spell. It's a reasonable effect for it's cost I believe By itself, the feat is fine. But it's +3 levels leave too much possibilities for abuse [especially in combination with Twin Spell] Searing spell comes from Sandstorm at any rate and not the Complete Books. I had an aversion to when I first saw it, but then I thought about it, and realized that it took care of one of the flaws of D&D, absolute immunities. But, if you disagree with me about this feat, I can certainly understand. I agree with this feat taking care of one of the flaws of D&D, absolute immunities [even if some creatures, like elementals should have just such immunity], but I'd be much more happier if they replace immunity with Resistance 100 [or something like that]. And you're right, that one is from Sandstorm [and cold version, Piercing Cold is from Frostburn] but it create some very unlogical situations [how could you deal fire damage to creature made of fire???]
Ripe 10-05-06, 05:44 PM	If other people want to cast magic, Elminster's cool with that. If they feel a need to cast magic AT Elminster! They're gonna need some Atonement! :D Which does not change the fact that Mystra want both Elminster and that other mage equally capable of casting spells.
Derren S. 10-05-06, 05:50 PM	Actually if Mystra got it her way only her chosen and other goody goody persons could cast spells. Maybe she would tolerate also neutrall spellcaster but only if closely monitored.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-05-06, 06:03 PM	Which does not change the fact that Mystra want both Elminster and that other mage equally capable of casting spells. Aye Sir Knight. I couldst smite thee with mine tank, with its mighty armor, its grandiose missles, but mine Goddess beckons and tellest me "Thy tank art cheap, and thou shalt not use it in thine battles. Pick up thine own sword and smite yonder knight. Sitteth not on the butt and win" :rofl: The other mages are free to cast their spells, they'll just want to be a good distance away, and consider casting Mage's Disjunction several times first. I don't see how anti-magic field is any different from any other magical defense, and I don't see Mystra having a problem. I agree with this feat taking care of one of the flaws of D&D, absolute immunities [even if some creatures, like elementals should have just such immunity], but I'd be much more happier if they replace immunity with Resistance 100 [or something like that]. And you're right, that one is from Sandstorm [and cold version, Piercing Cold is from Frostburn] but it create some very unlogical situations [how could you deal fire damage to creature made of fire???] Well, I think that fire Elementals and the like would have pretty high resistance. The more powerful and bigger the fire elemental, the higher fire resistance. However, many fire elementals would still get immolated inside the sun. Similarly, even very powerful and old ones could still get damaged by fire if it came from say Zaaman Rul or a God of Fire?
Ripe 10-05-06, 06:05 PM	Actually if Mystra got it her way only her chosen and other goody goody persons could cast spells. Maybe she would tolerate also neutrall spellcaster but only if closely monitored. Where did you get that idea? She has no problem with LE priests worshiping previous Mystra and she still grant them spells. The head of her Church in Waterdeep is LE necromancer. She have no problem with evil spellcasters as long as they don't start using magic as a weapon to reshape the world to their will [which most of them do]. And she have a problem with good and neutral spellcaster also if they act like that.
Ripe 10-05-06, 06:11 PM	The other mages are free to cast their spells, they'll just want to be a good distance away, and consider casting Mage's Disjunction several times first. I don't see how anti-magic field is any different from any other magical defense, and I don't see Mystra having a problem. The problem is that AMF does not offer magical defense. It prevent magic from operating. Which is very different from casting Spell Immunity or Spell resistance which prevent some spell from working on you. AMF prevent spell from working, period. And Mystra have a problem with everything that prevent Magic from working.
Derren S. 10-05-06, 06:17 PM	Maybe because Mystra tried to cut off all evil spellcasters/gods from the weave and got scolded by Ao for trying to do so? And AMF is just another spell. It doesn't stop spells anymore then Globe of Invulnerability, counterspelling or silence. Mystra has absolutly no problem with AMF otherwise it would be impossible to cast this spell.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-05-06, 06:18 PM	It is a magical defense though, the defense prevents magic from working :) A lot of things prevent magic from working. Dispel Magic, Mage's Disjunction, Break Enchantment. If Mystra had a problem with Anti-Magic field, why would she specifically grant it in the Spell Domain? It's a tool like any other spell, and it depends on how it's used. It's up their for Elminster's Defense. I don't think Elminster runs around invisible in Mage's Workshops all day making their spells usless :D (although that would be hilarious).
Ripe 10-05-06, 06:36 PM	Maybe because Mystra tried to cut off all evil spellcasters/gods from the weave and got scolded by Ao for trying to do so? Actually, if I remember correctly she cut of Cyric and his followers from using magic and she was tried by panel of Greater Gods [the same panel that latter on tried Cyric for failing to spread strife], not Ao for upseting the Balance. And AMF is just another spell. It doesn't stop spells anymore then Globe of Invulnerability, counterspelling or silence. Mystra has absolutly no problem with AMF otherwise it would be impossible to cast this spell. And I didn't say that Mystra had problem with someone casting AMF. I said that Mystra might have problem with [B]member of her clergy casting AMF. It is a magical defense though, the defense prevents magic from working A lot of things prevent magic from working. Dispel Magic, Mage's Disjunction, Break Enchantment. If Mystra had a problem with Anti-Magic field, why would she specifically grant it in the Spell Domain? As for why Mystra grant AMF as part of the spell domain... prior to introduction of Repose domain, non-evil deities of the dead granted spells with Evil descriptors as part of Dead domain [which was actually against game mechanics]. WotC introduced new domain to correct that. Not to mention that F&P state that Lolth's dogma is to punish each mistreatment of spider with death [and turning them into mounts is mistreatment, in fact one of Menzo's Houses is said to have special permission by Lolth to use Spider mounts in another sourcebooks], and then you have Lolth's divine PrC in the same book giving spider mount. And all the spells you listed counter spells or remove existing enchantments. The do not prevent spells from working or prevent other casters from casting spells.
Krash 10-05-06, 07:39 PM	The problem is that AMF does not offer magical defense. It prevent magic from operating. Which is very different from casting Spell Immunity or Spell resistance which prevent some spell from working on you. AMF prevent spell from working, period. And Mystra have a problem with everything that prevent Magic from working. Also keep in mind that an anti-magic spell is just that, a spell. It is not dead magic or somesuch. If the spell created pure 'anti-magic' it couldn't exist, as it would collapse instantly upon formation. Hence there are ways around an anti-magic shell and I thought of a nifty one the other day with the Simbul in mind. Back to your discussion. -- George Krashos
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-05-06, 07:40 PM	And all the spells you listed counter spells or remove existing enchantments. The do not prevent spells from working or prevent other casters from casting spells. What you're saying is fine and logical. It does not however, counter my points. I only prevent casters from casting spells within 10 ft of me. I generally wouldn't hang out with them anyway. The only elminsters that they'd meet would be my simulacrums. It's not like I'm casting a universal anti-magic field. More importantly, elminster can cast in the field just fine. I don't see Mystra having a problem with this whatsoever. You shouldn't duel Elminster, it's a bad idea :D
Aaron L 10-05-06, 08:30 PM	Then again so did some of the 3E rules [namely gaining full HD's after level 10], but that's another rant. HAHAHA. Thats really funny. Good joke.
BrennonGoldeye 10-05-06, 09:40 PM	:shifty:stroke:blink:slowly:uh-huh:coming:bigeyes:closer:drool:
BrianCritchley 10-06-06, 03:08 AM	Actually, if I remember correctly she cut of Cyric and his followers from using magic and she was tried by panel of Greater Gods [the same panel that latter on tried Cyric for failing to spread strife], not Ao for upseting the Balance. And I didn't say that Mystra had problem with someone casting AMF. I said that Mystra might have problem with [B]member of her clergy casting AMF. As for why Mystra grant AMF as part of the spell domain... prior to introduction of Repose domain, non-evil deities of the dead granted spells with Evil descriptors as part of Dead domain [which was actually against game mechanics]. WotC introduced new domain to correct that. Not to mention that F&P state that Lolth's dogma is to punish each mistreatment of spider with death [and turning them into mounts is mistreatment, in fact one of Menzo's Houses is said to have special permission by Lolth to use Spider mounts in another sourcebooks], and then you have Lolth's divine PrC in the same book giving spider mount. And all the spells you listed counter spells or remove existing enchantments. The do not prevent spells from working or prevent other casters from casting spells. problem with comparing the AMF domain to the death domain is the spell domain was created for FR.
Derren S. 10-06-06, 04:46 AM	And I didn't say that Mystra had problem with someone casting AMF. I said that Mystra might have problem with member of her clergy casting AMF. Thats why she grants AMF as a domain spell and gives her priests special abilities inside such fields? As Brian said, the spell domain was made for Mystra so she has no problem with any of those spells.
Ripe 10-06-06, 11:49 AM	Thats why she grants AMF as a domain spell and gives her priests special abilities inside such fields? As Brian said, the spell domain was made for Mystra so she has no problem with any of those spells. Prior to introduction of Repose domain in F&P [May 2002], Kelemvor had access to Death domain. Which contained Create Undead and Create Greater Undead spells. Do you really think that Kelemvor, whith his view of undead would grant those spells? Or aprove his priests casting them? Are you saying that Kelemvor did not have problem with creating undead prior to May 2002 because he granted those spells as a domain spell? And yes, Spell domain was created for FR [Repose was created for Kelemvor specifically], but that does not mean that Mystra would aprove casting AMF [after all, Spell domain was not created only for Mystra but also for Azuth, Savras and Thoth and those other deities would not have problem with AMF].
BrianCritchley 10-06-06, 03:21 PM	Prior to introduction of Repose domain in F&P [May 2002], Kelemvor had access to Death domain. Which contained Create Undead and Create Greater Undead spells. Do you really think that Kelemvor, whith his view of undead would grant those spells? Or aprove his priests casting them? Are you saying that Kelemvor did not have problem with creating undead prior to May 2002 because he granted those spells as a domain spell? And yes, Spell domain was created for FR [Repose was created for Kelemvor specifically], but that does not mean that Mystra would aprove casting AMF [after all, Spell domain was not created only for Mystra but also for Azuth, Savras and Thoth and those other deities would not have problem with AMF]. AMF isn't exactly perminant, it's just a spell, unless you tried to make it perminant Mystra wouldn't care.
Akorria 10-06-06, 03:40 PM	"Why is there war, death, or poverty in the Forgotten Realms when they have Elminster?!" they cry. Well, why is there war, death, and poverty on Earth when we have all the technology that we do? People are greedy, no matter how much Good you do there will always be more people doing selfish and Evul things, and some will be actively blocking your atempts to help people. Elminster and the Seven Sisters and all those other guys are effectively fighting an uphull battle against 100 times there number of bad guys who are actively blocking every attempt they make to do Good, an who go in and undo anything they do manage to accomplish as soon as they get the chance. Sounds like what most people say about God. "Why is there bad stuff happening if there's an all-powerful omnipotent being watching everything?" The answer I tend to give to that question is the same I give my adventurers about Elminster-- If all evil was removed from the world, there wouldn't be good. If you didn't know pain, you could not know pleasure. You must have a balance. Even forces of good have to allow certain festering places of evil because without it, their own powers diminish. Besides, El isn't even omnipotent, like a deity is supposed to be. He's NOT a deity. Players asking about that is like players turning to their cleric and whining "you're a follower of ______, why can't you pray to him/her and have him/her show up in avatar form and whoop the heck out of [Insert Evil Mean Big Horrible Bad Guy Here]?" Maybe if adventurers would get off their lazy bums and ADVENTURE instead of whining about having high-level NPCs do all the work for them...
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-06-06, 04:17 PM	If all evil was removed from the world, there wouldn't be good. If you didn't know pain, you could not know pleasure. You must have a balance. Even forces of good have to allow certain festering places of evil because without it, their own powers diminish. Perhaps you'd like to backup that statement with some mechanics? :D I don't recall anywhere in the rules saying that evil places must be allowed to stand because without evil places, good places spontaneously explode :r: With the powers and spells available, there's little reason for Elminster to not scour the realms with Detect Evil Spells, while casting Dispel Magic on suspicious people, and then consequently casting Detect Evil on them. Likewise there's little reason for Elminster to not consider setting up Permanent Antipathy Spells all over Major Cities in the Realms to prevent Bad types from desiring to enter. No, certainly not. With the power to enact such widespread peace and good, Elminster et. al, would, could, and should do such things. You're trying to appeal to logic, but the base of your logic has fallen. Edit: Sure El's not Omnipotent, but with all the spells, powers, and items he has. With the ability to make endless mindlinked clones. With the capacity to live Forever. Elminster sure knows a lot, can read minds, and could even alter memories if he wished. With the way Elminster should act, it wouldn't even be a question of whooping up on the biggest enemy, it'd be whether or not there were even any enemies to begin with. The only impediment to world peace are the other high level evil casters, and whether or not they can be defeated.
Akorria 10-06-06, 04:39 PM	Why must it be about mechanics? I'm actually NOT trying to appeal to logic in that format, but more in the lines of "hey, what's the point of LIVING (or in this case, adventuring) if everything is so perfect"? When I was little (I'm talking, 5 or 6), after a church service where the minitser exhorted the glories of heaven (everything was perfect, you never ate because you weren't hungry, you never drank because you weren't thirsty, you never slept because you weren't tired...), I told my mother if heaven was like what the preacher said, I didn't want to go. From a perspective of both a person in the realm AND a character in the Realms, I think I would rather LIVE every day to its fullest, even if that means I don't have a SWAT team at my disposal or a level ?? NPC jumping in to save me every ten seconds; rather than just existing day to day with no worries, no danger, no risk. I think the issue is thus: by game mechanics, Elminster and friends could probably jump in and fix everything and make the world a perfect place. But what fun would that be? Not everyone who roleplays is a number-cruncher. Some people play because it's FUN. It would cease to be fun if there wasn't risk. The game isn't mechanics alone. It's also people (be they human or any other race; good, evil, or inbetween). If you focus on the mechanics, then you're missing a lot of the other stuff too. Maybe Elminister doesn't help because he's washing his laundry, or taking a day off, or dallying with his girlfriend. Or maybe he doesn't because, frankly, if everything in the Realmsverse could be fixed by a nigh-omnipotent NPC, it would ruin the experience for those of us who actually enjoy adventuring.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-06-06, 05:30 PM	Well luckily for all of us, your preacher made that up, and heaven isn't like that :D I'm not saying that a world where the extent of problems are people being rude to each other, stealing from each other, ect. would be the most fun for a game like D&D. I'm just saying that with the powers available to Elminster et. al, the world should be devoid of 99.99% of the problems that FR has in it. The question of this thread was to "Solve the Why Elminster doesn't do this problem", and I'm giving you the answer. The answer is that there isn't one. Elminster et. al should save the world. I play Forgotten Realms too, and enjoy it a lot :) In fact I'm going to be DMing in a couple of hours for my Forgotten Realms game. Now, I always ignore the fact that Elminster could probably save the entire world; it's not going to affect our enjoyment of the game. However, if I'm asked or told that Elminster wouldn't save the Realms, I'll have to tell them that that's silly, and it is.
Ripe 10-06-06, 06:07 PM	Actually, the answer is: Why should he [they]? And no, the answer to that is not "Because he's [they're] good". Think Master Yoda here. He could kill Emperor at any moment [he almost won their confrontation at Senate Chamber], and Anakin was never really in their league. But he choose to do nothing and wait for Luke to "save the galaxy". And countless millions died as a result of his choice. But he was still considered [and was] good and great Jedi Master. Or Gandalf. He was Sauron's equal in every regard. But in the Middle Earth he spend thousand years influencing and manipulating others so they would fight and defeat him [Ok, he was actually forbiden to fight him power for power but still]. And just another question for all of you who think Elminster should destroy all evil: What is to stop Elminster to become next great evil and tyrant?
Zargain 10-06-06, 08:33 PM	I think that regardless of his level... elminster could never solve every evil in Faerun, oh he might stop quite a few but would end up dead as well and as a result all the evils that he blocked by his very existance (think of him as a "buffer" against bad guys since even the toughest bad guys who are going to move large enough scale for him to take note are going to say "I can't do this so long as Elminster is around...") I mean I don't care if you're level 99, all you need is a few natural 1s by El and a few natural 20s by his enemies and it could be all over.) and if he's facing 10+ epic level encounters a day then do you honestly think he would maintian his existance for long? I've had a 14th level party struggle against a 10th and 12th level encounter before... A problem with the idea of him going in and blasting evey baddie in the world is that well... he's a wizard, the strength of a wizard lies in the idea of preparation. If you are a prepared wizard, you're a powerful wizard. If you're an unprepared wizard... you're a dead (or at least deeply in trouble) wizard. Can you honestly tell me he's going to be prepared to fight 100+ epic villains, each with their own strengths, weaknesses and tricks. If El blew away all but his fire spells and had to go against Klauth, imagine the results... I don't care how hard you want to prepare, even if you know the common tricks that Szass Tam, Fzoul Chembryl and all the big villains use, you might very well run into them on a day where they're using other methods for some reason or another. Oh... and if you're going to quote to argue my points next time, please address all my points rather than just finding fault in a minor detail :P
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-07-06, 12:55 AM	Actually, the answer is: Why should he [they]? And for a similarly appropriate answer, why not? The capability and potential is there; go for it Think Master Yoda here. He could kill Emperor at any moment [he almost won their confrontation at Senate Chamber], and Anakin was never really in their league. But he choose to do nothing and wait for Luke to "save the galaxy". And countless millions died as a result of his choice. But he was still considered [and was] good and great Jedi Master. Or Gandalf. He was Sauron's equal in every regard. But in the Middle Earth he spend thousand years influencing and manipulating others so they would fight and defeat him [Ok, he was actually forbiden to fight him power for power but still]. Yoda and Gandalf are not Wizards in the D&D sense and power of Wizards. Both Yoda and Gandalf are vulnerable, could not replace an army, and are subject to be overwhelmed. They're much more comparable to Mystical Fighters but Fighters nevertheless, with limited types of attacks, resources, and defenses. Elminster is not bound by these limits. Gandalf and Yoda do not have access to Time Stop, Teleport, Plane Shift, Invisibility, Orb of Fire, Greater Blink, Gate, Wish, Simulacrum, Shapechange, ect. ect. ect. Elminster is nowhere near the level where they are. And therefore, such comparisons are very inadequate. And just another question for all of you who think Elminster should destroy all evil: What is to stop Elminster to become next great evil and tyrant? Nothing, Nothing at all :blush: I think that regardless of his level... elminster could never solve every evil in Faerun, oh he might stop quite a few but would end up dead as well and as a result all the evils that he blocked by his very existance (think of him as a "buffer" against bad guys since even the toughest bad guys who are going to move large enough scale for him to take note are going to say "I can't do this so long as Elminster is around...") Well, he can't stop every evil in Faerun, only because of the existence of the high level evil casters. If they were not present, he could indeed solve every major and medium problem in the realms by himself. Elminster isn't really a buffer. At any point Szass Tam, Larloch, et. al could kill nearly every citizen of Faerun if they wanted to. We have Trace Teleport type spells but we don't have trace Planeshift spells. Tam could pick one city. Time Stop, Do his business, and then proceedingly planeshift out of there. Where did he go? Who knows? There's no defense against it. The only fear Elminster and his enemies have, is if their enemies somehow find their location. If they ever do, it's just one teleport beatdown, and they're finished. If they can never find each other's locations, they'll not be defeated. It's a game of mutual destruction. Just that the wizards themselves will not be destroyed, just everything but themselves can be destroyed. If the evils of faerun decide to destroy it, Elminster can't stop them. Of course, if elminster decides to destroy all the evils but the other wizards, they can't stop him either. I mean I don't care if you're level 99, all you need is a few natural 1s by El and a few natural 20s by his enemies and it could be all over.) and if he's facing 10+ epic level encounters a day then do you honestly think he would maintian his existance for long? I've had a 14th level party struggle against a 10th and 12th level encounter before... A problem with the idea of him going in and blasting evey baddie in the world is that well... he's a wizard, the strength of a wizard lies in the idea of preparation. If you are a prepared wizard, you're a powerful wizard. If you're an unprepared wizard... you're a dead (or at least deeply in trouble) wizard. Can you honestly tell me he's going to be prepared to fight 100+ epic villains, each with their own strengths, weaknesses and tricks. If El blew away all but his fire spells and had to go against Klauth, imagine the results... I don't care how hard you want to prepare, even if you know the common tricks that Szass Tam, Fzoul Chembryl and all the big villains use, you might very well run into them on a day where they're using other methods for some reason or another. The thing is though, whether Elminster's Level 35 or level 99, he never has to act through himself. His clones can do everything for him. Even then, he does everything while in a time stop. He's never in the position when he'll need to make a save from an enemy's attack, or have to test whether or not his AC will hold up. And, he won't let himself either. I don't imagine Elminster doing 10+ encounters a day. He'll do as many encounters as he can handle, and no more. If something bad is happening, and he's not prepared to handle it. Then unfortunately it's just tough. He'll stay in his demiplane and wait for 8 hours to pass. Elminster can handle 100+ up epic villains if they're not casters, psionicists, or the like. Nor would he fight any of these more than one at a time (unless they were really stunk). If Elminster blew most of his spells, and all he had left was fire, he'd be fine. He has mastery of Elements. Not to mention that he'll have Searing Spell. So his Fire Immunity isn't going to save him. As far as the tricks of his enemies. The way for defeating your enemies is pretty standard. Put'm in an anti-magic field and beatem down. Throw a Searing Orb of Fire at them. He won't be able to stop most of their tricks, really. Only if they make a severe critical error, and Elminster finds their location, will they be stoppable. Oh... and if you're going to quote to argue my points next time, please address all my points rather than just finding fault in a minor detail I don't remember addressing your points, unless you have two accounts for this forum. But regardless, I have tried to do as you ask.
Zargain 10-07-06, 01:58 AM	I don't remember addressing your points, unless you have two accounts for this forum. But regardless, I have tried to do as you ask. I wasn't reffering to you specifically but thanks anyway :) I just don't like when all my points are addressed after i make a long post... you... have broken that though and I thank you. You have proven that mechanicaly yes the mighty could kill all but the most mighty, true. But I think people have to account that the amount of destruction caused by sttopping these evils would be enormous. The idea of whipping out the zulkirs would leave Thay in civil war with lot of innocents getting hurt or killed. its better to work against evils when they provoke and threaten the lands of innocents then to simply destroy evils and cause problems to the people of their country, otherwise Elminster would effectivly become their "Zass Tam" in terms of an evil tyrant since he destroyed their country's rulers. Fortunately, Faerun is realstic enough that few if any organizations realisticaly expect to conquer all of faerun or even so, they could only go about one country or region at a time which is difficult enough. for example, the Arcane Brotherhood probably doesn't give a hoot about the goody-two-shoes holy priest working in mulhorand nor does said priest put his concerns wit the brotherhood. Each nation has its own internal and external problems that are a great enough cause of worry to have mr NPCs galavant around blowing up every ambiguous "bad-guy" in the realsms since old el's concerns probably lie in what the Zhentarim is about to try in Shadowdale while Khelben and his moonstars keep a watch on the number of red wizards in waterdeep while Alustriel sends out adventuring parties to investigate why an expedition from the arcane brotherhood is gathering near an old ruin ect. I think we can sum up the arguments for both sides in the following: Why he can: 1) mechanicaly he could take down alot of baddies 2) save innocent people from dying 3) generaly take care of the bad guys Why he can't: 1) would mess up order of nations ruled by "bad guys" causing anarchy and civil strife in said countries 2) would cause too much dependance on him and other power-types 3) would constantly have to "play firefighter" every few months as someone put it earlier 4) He and other powerful types would be unable to look after the organizations and nations they take care of. Personally I feel the why he can't outweighs why he can but I suppose the point of the arguments thus far have been the matter of oppinions
Aaron L 10-07-06, 05:30 AM	Jedi arent a good example of being Good (haha.) Theyre more Lawful Neutral than anything (in the prequels, that is. Luke I think is a Good guy.)
AlorinDawn 10-07-06, 11:26 PM	This one isn't all that hard. the realms is a huge place. Chosen of Mystra or not, one can only do so much. Bad things happen to good people all over all the time, there's no way, even in a fantasy world that a few highly powerful good hearted folks could make much more than a dent in the evil that goes on around them. Empowering folks with good hearts and ideals and leading by example are ways in which these super powerful NPC's help the realms, in addition to some hands on stuff which mostly PC's would not be aware of. If the DM takes the time to create a realistic feel to his world these questions will answer themselves.
Zargain 10-08-06, 12:08 AM	This one isn't all that hard. the realms is a huge place. Chosen of Mystra or not, one can only do so much. Bad things happen to good people all over all the time, there's no way, even in a fantasy world that a few highly powerful good hearted folks could make much more than a dent in the evil that goes on around them. Empowering folks with good hearts and ideals and leading by example are ways in which these super powerful NPC's help the realms, in addition to some hands on stuff which mostly PC's would not be aware of. If the DM takes the time to create a realistic feel to his world these questions will answer themselves. About every person who tried to answer this question said that... if the people who disagreed were to fold to such logic they wouldn't have prolonged the argument this long...
Ripe 10-08-06, 10:16 AM	And for a similarly appropriate answer, why not? The capability and potential is there; go for it. ... So what if capability and potential are there? Superpowers during Cold War had both capability and potential to destroy the other side and they still didn't do it. By your reasoning they should have. Why? Simply because they could.
Derren S. 10-08-06, 12:32 PM	About every person who tried to answer this question said that... if the people who disagreed were to fold to such logic they wouldn't have prolonged the argument this long... You know, some people want something better then DBZ logic where there is a unlimited amount of unspeakable evil and that every time the heroes foil a BBEP(=Big Bad Evil Plot) another even more dangerous BBEP comes up just in time to keep the heroes busy.
Karsus the Mad 10-08-06, 12:44 PM	Twisted for humor You know, some people want something better then DBZ logic where there is a unlimited amount of meddling good and that every time the villians foil a BGGP(=Big Good Guy Plot) another even more meddling BGGP comes up just in time to keep the villians busy.
Ripe 10-08-06, 03:40 PM	...The thing is though, whether Elminster's Level 35 or level 99, he never has to act through himself. His clones can do everything for him. Even then, he does everything while in a time stop. He's never in the position when he'll need to make a save from an enemy's attack, or have to test whether or not his AC will hold up. And, he won't let himself either. ... Actually, no his clones cannot do anything for him. And neither are his simulacrums. First of all, Clone spell create INERT duplicate of original creature. If a duplicate is created while original still lives, the created clone is just a soulless bit of inert flesh which rot if not preserved. Stasis Clone work just like Clone, the only difference is that body created while original is still alive does not rot away [it is still soulless bit of inert flesh]. Second, even if you find a way to create multiple active clones, they would still be forced to fight each other if they come near one another [just as it was the case with Manshoon's Stasis Clones]. True, someone meddle with Manshoon's clones but the only meddling was to awoke all of them when Manshoon die instead of just the most recently created one. The necessity to fight each other to death was not part of that meddling, it's part of having multiple versions of yourself alive at the same time. The same thing happen once before: on Elesias 4th, 709 DR, the so-called Night of Fourteen Magisters [see Secret of the Magister, page 50]. As far as his Simulacrums... well, he can create them, but they could be only 17th level [half of his 35, rounded down] so it's questionable how efficient would they be.
BrianCritchley 10-08-06, 04:22 PM	You know, some people want something better then DBZ logic where there is a unlimited amount of unspeakable evil and that every time the heroes foil a BBEP(=Big Bad Evil Plot) another even more dangerous BBEP comes up just in time to keep the heroes busy. yes well if you don't like the universe, don't play FR. yes there are a large number of plots being hatched, but the thing is all are differnt, I mean PCs should opnly save the world once ;) there's plenty of room in faerun for everyone, you look at the world now and cause one man in our world CAN affect the world, you think thats the norm. it's not. travel except to a VERY small select few is pretty restricted in the realms. most of the time you have local heros foiling local problems. mage mages out to conquer the world aren't exavtly a dime a dozen, but there are eneugh power players with wide reaching plots to keep the chosen somewhat busy.
Dark Wizard 10-08-06, 04:38 PM	You know, some people want something better then DBZ logic where there is a unlimited amount of unspeakable evil and that every time the heroes foil a BBEP(=Big Bad Evil Plot) another even more dangerous BBEP comes up just in time to keep the heroes busy. Quit tossing DBZ into your watery arguments because you think associating FR with a cartoon with ridiculous power levels might somehow make your statements sound more convincing than they are. DBZ was linear, one or two heroes, and usually only those heroes, kept tackling the increasingly powerful villains. FR is not linear, any number of heroes can take down any number of villains, and vice versa. Thus all of them keep each other in check. Remove a good guy and the bad guys get more powerful, remove a bad guy and the other bad guy get more influence. It's not so much that each evil is replaced with a stronger evil. There is X amount of evil to go around (X being a heck of a lot). Divide it however many ways you want between any number of individuals, organizations, monsters, etc. there is still a total of X evil. It's wiser to make sure X is divided amongst as many groups and individuals as possible, so all of X is never collated into just one entity (something approaching Sauron from LotR, Tharizdun from Greyhawk, or Takhisis from Dragonlance).
Karsus the Mad 10-08-06, 05:37 PM	Meh. Use the shadow seed.
BrianCritchley 10-08-06, 07:59 PM	Quit tossing DBZ into your watery arguments because you think associating FR with a cartoon with ridiculous power levels might somehow make your statements sound more convincing than they are. DBZ was linear, one or two heroes, and usually only those heroes, kept tackling the increasingly powerful villains. FR is not linear, any number of heroes can take down any number of villains, and vice versa. Thus all of them keep each other in check. Remove a good guy and the bad guys get more powerful, remove a bad guy and the other bad guy get more influence. It's not so much that each evil is replaced with a stronger evil. There is X amount of evil to go around (X being a heck of a lot). Divide it however many ways you want between any number of individuals, organizations, monsters, etc. there is still a total of X evil. It's wiser to make sure X is divided amongst as many groups and individuals as possible, so all of X is never collated into just one entity (something approaching Sauron from LotR, Tharizdun from Greyhawk, or Takhisis from Dragonlance). indeed. the DBZ comparison Darren is showing your complete lack of understanding of the realms. you're thinking linerally. thats not a good thing, it's not "zhents launch neferious plot then after zhents get defeated the red wizards attempt to launch their neferous plot" it's "while the zhentariam are launching a neferious plot tok conquer Phalan, The Red Wizards are attempting to to support a insurgency movement in algorand beliving that once the symbul is removed they can take over algorand from the inside vias their puppet rulers, at the same time the Iron Throne is disrupting Iron supplies along the sword coast, brining Baulder's gate and Amn close to war, meanwhile orc raids with the backing of a mad lich, are increasing in the silver marches, as well Lusken's Arcane brotherhood are perpareing to make their move by replacing noted dwarf leaders in ciditel felbarr with doppleganger minions. then of course there's the bandit raids in Tethyr, ohh and an undead wizard leading goblin raiders claiming to be one of the witch Kings was sited in Hullock Forest of Cormyr, and Zhentarium slavers are kidnapping people to seel into slvaery in Neverwinter. " in short there's all kinds of evil, great and small, occuring AT THE SAME TIME.
GothicDan 10-08-06, 09:49 PM	It's not so much that each evil is replaced with a stronger evil. There is X amount of evil to go around (X being a heck of a lot). Divide it however many ways you want between any number of individuals, organizations, monsters, etc. there is still a total of X evil. It's wiser to make sure X is divided amongst as many groups and individuals as possible, so all of X is never collated into just one entity (something approaching Sauron from LotR, Tharizdun from Greyhawk, or Takhisis from Dragonlance). Quoted for amazing truth. And heck, I even love Dragonlance myself, but just about the only thing I like about the 5th Age is the lack of a single super-powered evil (Takhisis) that basically outshines all of the lesser evils in the world.
BrianCritchley 10-08-06, 10:58 PM	And heck, I even love Dragonlance myself, but just about the only thing I like about the 5th Age is the lack of a single super-powered evil (Takhisis) that basically outshines all of the lesser evils in the world. yeah it seems more magic friendly there. of course I'm betting that Paladine and Takashis will be ressurected eventually. no good villan stays dead forever
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-09-06, 01:34 PM	Why he can: 1) mechanicaly he could take down alot of baddies 2) save innocent people from dying 3) generaly take care of the bad guys Why he can't: 1) would mess up order of nations ruled by "bad guys" causing anarchy and civil strife in said countries 2) would cause too much dependance on him and other power-types 3) would constantly have to "play firefighter" every few months as someone put it earlier 4) He and other powerful types would be unable to look after the organizations and nations they take care of. Personally I feel the why he can't outweighs why he can but I suppose the point of the arguments thus far have been the matter of oppinions 1. Mess up the order of evil ruled nations? Elminster can have hundreds of Simulacrums, Eidolons, clones, ect. He can police the state himself if he really wanted to. He could detect the thoughts of everyone who was thinking of anarchy. He could detect evil on everyone who was planning on committing a crime. He can even use charm and dominate spells if necessary. No no no. He could certainly create a very stable order, and have the common folk happy too :D 2. :confused: The only thing keeping everyone else in the world alive, is the fact that the other BBEG Casters haven't decided to slay them all. It's not a matter of dependence. Elminster can't ultimately protect them. The only solution would be to move the peoples of Faerun to one of Elminster's Demiplanes for them to live in. 3. He'd play "firefighter" until the world was saved, and then would need to anymore. Granted, this would take awhile. But really, elminating everyone that's evil in Faerun would drastically reduce crime. 4. Elminster can do all of this with Clones, Simulacrums, ect. As I've said earlier, he really can't protect them unless they decide to live on Elminster's Demiplane. At any moment one of the powerful evil casters could destroy all of Elminster's non-caster friends. This one isn't all that hard. the realms is a huge place. Chosen of Mystra or not, one can only do so much. Bad things happen to good people all over all the time, there's no way, even in a fantasy world that a few highly powerful good hearted folks could make much more than a dent in the evil that goes on around them. Empowering folks with good hearts and ideals and leading by example are ways in which these super powerful NPC's help the realms, in addition to some hands on stuff which mostly PC's would not be aware of. Yes, Elminster can only do so much. He is limited by time :D If you believe that Elminster can't make much of a dent in evil, then obviously you haven't been paying attention. ;) If Elminster was instead a Powerful Fighter. Then yes, his influence against evil would be limited. He is not, however, and your arguments fail. So what if capability and potential are there? Superpowers during Cold War had both capability and potential to destroy the other side and they still didn't do it. By your reasoning they should have. Why? Simply because they could. The Forgotten Realms and D&D are not the Cold War. In the cold war, Russia and the US could have totally obliterated the earth and killed everyone. The key is that both sides would have died. Elminster Will Never Die Even If All of Faerun Is Disintegrated. Consider the Evil BBEGs. Why would Szass Tam care if Faerun was destroyed? He has the capability to destroy everyone there (save who I've already mentioned). If it's his goal to conquer Mulhorand. There's nothing stopping him whatsoever! If he wants his Red Wizard Agents in Rashemen, he can make sure that automatically works :) There should never ever be a challenge to Thay. It should reign supreme. Actually, no his clones cannot do anything for him. And neither are his simulacrums. First of all, Clone spell create INERT duplicate of original creature. If a duplicate is created while original still lives, the created clone is just a soulless bit of inert flesh which rot if not preserved. Stasis Clone work just like Clone, the only difference is that body created while original is still alive does not rot away [it is still soulless bit of inert flesh]. Second, even if you find a way to create multiple active clones, they would still be forced to fight each other if they come near one another [just as it was the case with Manshoon's Stasis Clones]. True, someone meddle with Manshoon's clones but the only meddling was to awoke all of them when Manshoon die instead of just the most recently created one. The necessity to fight each other to death was not part of that meddling, it's part of having multiple versions of yourself alive at the same time. The same thing happen once before: on Elesias 4th, 709 DR, the so-called Night of Fourteen Magisters [see Secret of the Magister, page 50]. As far as his Simulacrums... well, he can create them, but they could be only 17th level [half of his 35, rounded down] so it's questionable how efficient would they be. I just use the word clone as a description. He's not using the clone spell. He's using Simulacrums as well as the Spell Eidolon from the Epic Level Handbook. When he made the Epic Spell, he made it Permanent Duration, and he made it have no XP cost. He cancels the high cost of using the spell with his simulacrums each donating a spell. He casts a spell to recover negative levels, and he's good to go. He can make Eidolons of up to level 27. So, that's plenty of firepower. indeed. the DBZ comparison Darren is showing your complete lack of understanding of the realms. you're thinking linerally. thats not a good thing, it's not "zhents launch neferious plot then after zhents get defeated the red wizards attempt to launch their neferous plot" it's "while the zhentariam are launching a neferious plot tok conquer Phalan, The Red Wizards are attempting to to support a insurgency movement in algorand beliving that once the symbul is removed they can take over algorand from the inside vias their puppet rulers, at the same time the Iron Throne is disrupting Iron supplies along the sword coast, brining Baulder's gate and Amn close to war, meanwhile orc raids with the backing of a mad lich, are increasing in the silver marches, as well Lusken's Arcane brotherhood are perpareing to make their move by replacing noted dwarf leaders in ciditel felbarr with doppleganger minions. then of course there's the bandit raids in Tethyr, ohh and an undead wizard leading goblin raiders claiming to be one of the witch Kings was sited in Hullock Forest of Cormyr, and Zhentarium slavers are kidnapping people to seel into slvaery in Neverwinter. " in short there's all kinds of evil, great and small, occuring AT THE SAME TIME. No, I've already proven that all the lesser evils in the world are useless. If Szass Tam wants a plot to succeed, HE CAN FREAKEN MAKE IT SUCCEED. The allusion to DBZ is appropriate in the sense that no one else in the world matters. Yes, the books may give you an idea that everyone is important and that extra heroes can always help. This is untrue. If the BBEGs wanted, they'd all be useless Quote: It's not so much that each evil is replaced with a stronger evil. There is X amount of evil to go around (X being a heck of a lot). Divide it however many ways you want between any number of individuals, organizations, monsters, etc. there is still a total of X evil. It's wiser to make sure X is divided amongst as many groups and individuals as possible, so all of X is never collated into just one entity (something approaching Sauron from LotR, Tharizdun from Greyhawk, or Takhisis from Dragonlance). Quoted for amazing truth. And heck, I even love Dragonlance myself, but just about the only thing I like about the 5th Age is the lack of a single super-powered evil (Takhisis) that basically outshines all of the lesser evils in the world. It's not quoted for amazing truth. I've already proved time and again, that one Person can do it all. Oh, and there's something very important that I totally forgot about. Elminster's Eidolons can cast Astral Projection! They go hang out in Elminster's plane and cast the Spell. Then the go into toril. If they're killed, it doesn't matter. Their spirit immediately returns to them in El's Demiplane. Now couple this with the fact that that Every High level Wizard, Dragon, ect. Should be doing this! :rofl: Oh my goodness!
Alac Luin 10-09-06, 01:56 PM	This is one of the silliest threads of all time. It's right up there with the "Uranium Katana" thread. I don't believe it is still going on. Solving the worlds problems by becoming the ultimate tyrant, there is a reason people fight Bane's clergy. While arguing every plot started by the powerful evil people should automatically succeed AT THE SAME TIME arguing every powerful good guy should automatically foil those plots. (Why am I bothering?:confused: )
Karsus the Mad 10-09-06, 02:02 PM	Oh, and there's something very important that I totally forgot about. Elminster's Eidolons can cast Astral Projection! They go hang out in Elminster's plane and cast the Spell. Then the go into toril. If they're killed, it doesn't matter. Their spirit immediately returns to them in El's Demiplane. Your major flaw is thinking that Elminster can cast Eidolon. (Why am I bothering? ) Not surprisingly, I just asked myself the same thing.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-09-06, 02:12 PM	This is one of the silliest threads of all time. It's right up there with the "Uranium Katana" thread. I don't believe it is still going on. Solving the worlds problems by becoming the ultimate tyrant, there is a reason people fight Bane's clergy. While arguing every plot started by the powerful evil people should automatically succeed AT THE SAME TIME arguing every powerful good guy should automatically foil those plots. (Why am I bothering? ) A lot of what I am saying, is in general terms. And is thinking in terms of a whole world where the only high level caster is Elminster, and a world where the only high level caster is Szass Tam or the like. It's hard for me to contemplate exactly what each side would do, knowing that plots other than killing people could easily be foiled by the other person. It's a crazy world. And, I need you people's help on thinking of How these people would combat each other. Perhaps swaths of Clones under Superior Invisibility in every nook and cranny of Faerun, waiting for the enemy spellcaster to telport there, so the spellcaster that created them can do a telport beatdown. I don't know. I need help. Solving the world's problems by becoming the Ultimate Tyrant? Whether Elminster wants to be a tyrant or doesn't want to be a tyrant is ultimately up to him. He has the ability to conquer a large swath of faerun right now if he wanted too, that doesn't mean he'd become a tyrant. He would if he wanted to. What I really need is people to stop repeating the same things and ignoring my arguments. Your major flaw is thinking that Elminster can cast Eidolon. He can. Thank you :D
Alac Luin 10-09-06, 02:35 PM	A lot of what I am saying, is in general terms. And is thinking in terms of a whole world where the only high level caster is Elminster, and a world where the only high level caster is Szass Tam or the like. It's hard for me to contemplate exactly what each side would do, knowing that plots other than killing people could easily be foiled by the other person. It's a crazy world. And, I need you people's help on thinking of How these people would combat each other. Perhaps swaths of Clones under Superior Invisibility in every nook and cranny of Faerun, waiting for the enemy spellcaster to telport there, so the spellcaster that created them can do a telport beatdown. I don't know. I need help. See, we are the one that have access to the source books. If anyone should know what these "plots" are we should, and we don't know what every plot is. How should we expect someone without these books (like Elminster) know these plots and be able to foil them? Most plots going on involve things other then "killing one person". They include things such as Unstableizeing Region A so we can exert control over Region B, which are long term goals, and things like create diversion here, so we can capture new slaves here, which are more short term goals. There are thousnds of plots going on every single day by the hundreds of evil orginizations. Solving the world's problems by becoming the Ultimate Tyrant? Whether Elminster wants to be a tyrant or doesn't want to be a tyrant is ultimately up to him. He has the ability to conquer a large swath of faerun right now if he wanted too, that doesn't mean he'd become a tyrant. He would if he wanted to. Um, isn't "Conquering a large swath of Faerun" being a Tyrant. Not every Tyrant needs to be Tyrannical. Then again, forcing the the world or large section of it to act in one's personal view of right and wrong is Tyrannical.
BrennonGoldeye 10-09-06, 03:04 PM	Bill, look back upon all the reasons that every argument you throw foward is giggly. Read this entire thread and then come up with one that hasn't yet been shot down. After that, post again. But not until then. I swear by Mystra I will see you hung by your heels for trolling. If there was ever an example it is here.:angelhide
Ripe 10-09-06, 03:32 PM	...The Forgotten Realms and D&D are not the Cold War. In the cold war, Russia and the US could have totally obliterated the earth and killed everyone. The key is that both sides would have died. Elminster Will Never Die Even If All of Faerun Is Disintegrated. Maybe, maybe not. But your point was that just because someone have potential and capability he/she should use it. Consider the Evil BBEGs. Why would Szass Tam care if Faerun was destroyed? He has the capability to destroy everyone there (save who I've already mentioned). If it's his goal to conquer Mulhorand. There's nothing stopping him whatsoever! If he wants his Red Wizard Agents in Rashemen, he can make sure that automatically works :) There should never ever be a challenge to Thay. It should reign supreme. Do you know anything about FR or are you just trying to impose those CO boards perverted view of D&D on everyone else? I just use the word clone as a description. He's not using the clone spell. He's using Simulacrums as well as the Spell Eidolon from the Epic Level Handbook. When he made the Epic Spell, he made it Permanent Duration, and he made it have no XP cost. He cancels the high cost of using the spell with his simulacrums each donating a spell. He casts a spell to recover negative levels, and he's good to go. He can make Eidolons of up to level 27. So, that's plenty of firepower. Except that you keep using word Clone. And basically, it does not matter how a clone is created. They all attack each other in FR, regardles of how were they created. It has something to do with having your soul splited between multiple individuals. One of the theories is that your soul want to become whole again so it's forces you to kill all the other versions of yourself. Which mean that it would affect Eidolons also. They'd also attack each other if they come nearby. I know that the spell said that "usually eidolons does not begrudge it's brief existance", but that does not mean that in FR, all the duplicate versions of original are forced to fight each other to death. Now couple this with the fact that that Every High level Wizard, Dragon, ect. Should be doing this! :rofl: Oh my goodness! You still didn't answer the main question: Why should they do it? Quote: Your major flaw is thinking that Elminster can cast Eidolon. He can. Thank you Actually, I think that Karsus mean that Elminster cannot cast Eidolon because he does not have access to Epic Spellcasting. What I really need is people to stop repeating the same things and ignoring my arguments. Well, if you start making some sensible arguments you wont be ignored. Not to mention that you keep ignoring our arguments.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-09-06, 03:47 PM	If we're going to go anywhere with this discussion, we're going to have to do a few things. PLEASE READ THIS IF YOU'RE GOING TO READ ANYTHING THAT I SAY. 1. Stop attacking me. 2. Quit Saying that Elminster can't do something 3. Help me out here Ok. The recent point that was addressed was foiling plots. Alright. Here are some ideas of mine. Please, let's talk about these ideas. If there's a flaw in them, tell me. But, just as you're telling me. Please think of ways of how to remedy them. Please don't just post "No, that doesn't work." That's unhelpful Precedent #1 Elminster will have the feats that he deserves My arguments are based on the fact that Elminster will have made wise feat choices during his career. This goes for all the other spellcasters of Faerun as well. As such Elminster will have Initiate of Mystra Epic Spellcasting Rapid Spell Persistent Spell There may be a few that I'm missing. All of these are logical and reasonable for him to have, and therefore will have them. Precedent #2 Alignment is in a D&D Black and White World In the real world you can't simply tell that someone is good or evil. However in D&D you can. The SRD says "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. Therefore, if you're evil, you've done enough hurting, oppressing, and killing to justify your evil alignment, and therefore are worthy of being eliminated one way or another. Idea #1 Basic Evil Destroying Tactic Elminster takes a large horde of his Eidolons and Simulacrums and goes to a city. Keep in mind that Elminster can make at least 10 or so Simulacrums a day, and 3 Eidolons. Coupled with his long existence, that's plenty of time for a very Sizeable amount. While in this city. All of them are Invisible, The Eidolons perhaps under Superior Invisibility. Each one of them Scours the city and casts Detect Evil. Anyone that shows up as evil is promptly slain. All of this can be coordinated through Telepathic bond, or perhaps an Epic Permanent Spell. The entire city, sewers, whatever will be scoured at once. And all the evil ones will be slain at once. After everyone that showed up as evil, has been eliminated. All the Clones cast detect magic. Once again, under invisibility. Anyone that is detected as magical is noted, and then promptly has a Greater Dispel Magic Cast against them from someone (perhaps a simulacrum would have to use a regular dispel magic). After the enemy spellcaster's Magic has been dispelled, another Clone Simutaneously uses Detect Evil. If that person is detected as evil, that person is slain. [/idea #1] Alright, help me think on that idea if you will please :) I'm seeing that Non-detection could be a Problem. A high caster level would be needed, and eidolons would be better suited to the task. Are there some other ways of telling whether someone is under nondetection?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-09-06, 03:57 PM	Maybe, maybe not. But your point was that just because someone have potential and capability he/she should use it. Well, if you can free the world of people killing each other. If you can end slavery worldwide. If you can ensure that world peace and happiness and prosperity, you would do it. It's like saying that if you had a cure for Polio, you wouldn't use it. Do you know anything about FR or are you just trying to impose those CO boards perverted view of D&D on everyone else? I know plenty about FR. Please, enough with this CO stuff. Mechanically, Thay should go unchallenged with Szass Tam on their side. I invite you to mechanically prove me wrong :) Except that you keep using word Clone. And basically, it does not matter how a clone is created. They all attack each other in FR, regardles of how were they created. It has something to do with having your soul splited between multiple individuals. One of the theories is that your soul want to become whole again so it's forces you to kill all the other versions of yourself. Which mean that it would affect Eidolons also. They'd also attack each other if they come nearby. I know that the spell said that "usually eidolons does not begrudge it's brief existance", but that does not mean that in FR, all the duplicate versions of original are forced to fight each other to death. The problem is though, there's nothing in the rules to support what you're saying. Simulacrums are completely loyal to you. So are Eidolons. You still didn't answer the main question: Why should they do it? Why should Elminster destroy all the evil in Faerun? Because it will end slavery, severely reduce crime, make people safer, and make people have more happy and productive lives :) Actually, I think that Karsus mean that Elminster cannot cast Eidolon because he does not have access to Epic Spellcasting. If you're an epic level caster, you're going to have epic spellcasting. It's like choosing between Weapon Focus and a feat which lets you cast Miracle at will. With all the knowledge, experience, travels, and closeness to Mystra that Elminster has, he's going to have Epic Spellcasting Well, if you start making some sensible arguments you wont be ignored. Not to mention that you keep ignoring our arguments. I think I'm making sensible arguments, and if it doesn't appear that way then I'm not doing my job, and I apologize for that. I think one thing that I forgot to mention is that you are correct about the Level 17 Simulacrums. Yes, that does hamper their effectiveness. They can still be useful though.
Karsus the Mad 10-09-06, 04:01 PM	He can. Thank you :D No, really, he can't. He can't cast Eidolon because it is an Epic spell. Elminster does not have the Epic Spellcasting feat. Therefore he cannot cast Eidolon, or any Epic spell for that matter. If you're an epic level caster, you're going to have epic spellcasting. It's like choosing between Weapon Focus and a feat which lets you cast Miracle at will. With all the knowledge, experience, travels, and closeness to Mystra that Elminster has, he's going to have Epic Spellcasting Yet he does not. His ELH writeup could have easily included the Epic Spellcasting feat, yet it doesn't. Therefore Elminster pre-ELH couldn't do, neither can Elminster post-ELH. A way around this would be for the Simbul to replace Elminster, since she actually does have the Epic Spellcasting feat. There's still the problem of her tackling a DC 79 spell when she only has a Spellcraft of 31. She's not going to be able to cast Eidolon either. Mechanically, Thay should go unchallenged with Szass Tam on their side. I invite you to mechanically prove me wrong I'd actually like to see you mechanically prove Thay (pun intended) could :)
Sapp 10-09-06, 04:04 PM	I think they are higher than 17th level simulacrums. Doesn't Elminster have Caster Level bonuses? EDIT: Nevermind. It's based on HD.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-09-06, 04:14 PM	No, really, he can't. He can't cast Eidolon because it is an Epic spell. Elminster does not have the Epic Spellcasting feat. Therefore he cannot cast Eidolon, or any Epic spell for that matter. Yet he does not. His ELH writeup could have easily included the Epic Spellcasting feat, yet it doesn't. Therefore Elminster pre-ELH couldn't do, neither can Elminster post-ELH. I know that the ELH writeup of Elminster doesn't have the Epic Spellcasting feat. But as I said earlier, I'm going to be giving Feats to Elminster that he ought to have and qualifies for. For instance I'm giving him the Initiate of Mystra Feat. If anyone in Faerun should have the abilities inherent there it should be him. You don't have to agree with me on this one. However, this is the basis that I'm going on with all of these thought processes, and I'm asking everyone to help and challenge me on these processes assuming that El will have the feats that he deserves. This point can't be debated since it is what I'm going on. Ok? Everyone happy? :) Anywho, if we could turn the discussion toward what I'd really like to talk about, then we can make some actual progress!!! :) ---> http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10310944&postcount=320
Sote 10-09-06, 04:16 PM	"Why isn't the FBI stopping that bully in your middle school?" Because the FBI does not consist of LVL 30+ Mofos that are Lawful Good?
Alac Luin 10-09-06, 04:22 PM	Idea #1 Basic Evil Destroying Tactic Elminster takes a large horde of his Eidolons and Simulacrums and goes to a city. Keep in mind that Elminster can make at least 10 or so Simulacrums a day, and 3 Eidolons. Coupled with his long existence, that's plenty of time for a very Sizeable amount. While in this city. All of them are Invisible, The Eidolons perhaps under Superior Invisibility. Each one of them Scours the city and casts Detect Evil. Anyone that shows up as evil is promptly slain. All of this can be coordinated through Telepathic bond, or perhaps an Epic Permanent Spell. The entire city, sewers, whatever will be scoured at once. And all the evil ones will be slain at once. After everyone that showed up as evil, has been eliminated. All the Clones cast detect magic. Once again, under invisibility. Anyone that is detected as magical is noted, and then promptly has a Greater Dispel Magic Cast against them from someone (perhaps a simulacrum would have to use a regular dispel magic). After the enemy spellcaster's Magic has been dispelled, another Clone Simutaneously uses Detect Evil. If that person is detected as evil, that person is slain. [/idea #1] One, this isn't in El's personality. Two, Acting in this manner is chaotic evil. So, he would need to kill himself to rid the world of evil. Take note, a large portion of of the evil people are not breaking any laws, or doing anything that justifies slaying them. So, he would be breaking laws (a chaotic act) and slaying virtually innocent people based on personal preference (an evil act).
Karsus the Mad 10-09-06, 04:33 PM	Because the FBI does not consist of LVL 30+ Mofos that are Lawful Good? Ahem...Chaotic Good...
Karsus the Mad 10-09-06, 04:48 PM	So now we can't even use facts because you don't like them?:lightbulb That's not debating of any style I'm aware of. That's sounding a lot like a "I tell people what I want to happen, ignoring already established facts that go against what I want, making up my own to replace that which I purposely ignore so that what I want will be forced to happen, and expect everyone else to simply nod and say 'aye'.:ahem: :pbbbtt: :rant: :banghead: :headexplo " type of arguing. Eh. I'll offer one last tidbit.:whatsthis Don't forget to give the baddies the feats they ought to qualify for then as well. Otherwise the pre-determined:detect: ending will look even more suspicious:incog: . Especially Szass Tam. You might want to give him Epic Spellcasting...afterall, he did attempt to use an Epic spell on Eltab, despite not having the feat.
Ripe 10-09-06, 04:49 PM	Well, if you can free the world of people killing each other. If you can end slavery worldwide. If you can ensure that world peace and happiness and prosperity, you would do it. It's like saying that if you had a cure for Polio, you wouldn't use it. You see, one of the problems here is that the greatest slave ovner in FR is Churches of Anhur [CG] and Horus-Re [LG]. And most of the killing is actually done by non-evil governments. I know plenty about FR. Please, enough with this CO stuff. Mechanically, Thay should go unchallenged with Szass Tam on their side. I invite you to mechanically prove me wrong :) You see, your main problem here is that most people on this boards don't really care about game mechanics. Some, like Gothic Dan, don't even play D&D game. So from purely mechanical point of view I probably can't prove you wrong. But from "roleplaying", in-game, lore point of wiev I can surelly try. The problem is though, there's nothing in the rules to support what you're saying. Simulacrums are completely loyal to you. So are Eidolons. I'm not saying that they are not loyal to you. They are. The problem is that within the FR, if your soul is split between more than one body, that soul feel irresistible urge to kill all other copies of itself [and that include you, not just your clones or eidolons]. Why should Elminster destroy all the evil in Faerun? Because it will end slavery, severely reduce crime, make people safer, and make people have more happy and productive lives :) You know, I allready pointed out that the largest slave owners in FR are CG an LG churches. And that non-evil governments [LN ones in particular] are killing more of it's subjects than evil ones [Waterdeep actually go as far as using Undermountain as a prison!]. If you're an epic level caster, you're going to have epic spellcasting. It's like choosing between Weapon Focus and a feat which lets you cast Miracle at will. With all the knowledge, experience, travels, and closeness to Mystra that Elminster has, he's going to have Epic Spellcasting I have to agree with you on that. But the problem is that ELH version of El was created by [or in cooperation by, I'm not sure which one is true] Ed Greenwood. And if man who created Elminster have choosen not to give him Epic Spellcasting, than El does not have Epic Spellcasting [and for that matter, neither does almost all the other FR epic caster]. I think I'm making sensible arguments, and if it doesn't appear that way then I'm not doing my job, and I apologize for that. I think one thing that I forgot to mention is that you are correct about the Level 17 Simulacrums. Yes, that does hamper their effectiveness. They can still be useful though. I was a bit harsh there, so I apologize. Yes your arguments make some sense, the problem is that they are made from standpoint of game mechanic, and like I said, not everyone on this boards care about game mechanic that much. Just of interest: Would you let Simulacrums take all 17 level of Wizard [or some combo of Wizard/Archmage] or would you force them take levels in Rogue and Cleric [possibly even Fighter] as well since it state that they can have max of 1/2 originals HD/level?
Derren S. 10-09-06, 04:52 PM	You see, your main problem here is that most people on this boards don't really care about game mechanics. Some, like Gothic Dan, don't even play D&D game. So from purely mechanical point of view I probably can't prove you wrong. But from "roleplaying", in-game, lore point of wiev I can surelly try. And your problem is that you can't simply ignore the game mechanic. It is as much part of the FR as the lore is.
Ripe 10-09-06, 04:55 PM	And your problem is that you can't simply ignore the game mechanic. It is as much part of the FR as the lore is. I'm not ignoring it. I just put lore before some silly game rule. And if something in lore tells me something can't work, I don't care if game mechanic say that it can.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-09-06, 05:05 PM	One, this isn't in El's personality. Two, Acting in this manner is chaotic evil. So, he would need to kill himself to rid the world of evil. Take note, a large portion of of the evil people are not breaking any laws, or doing anything that justifies slaying them. So, he would be breaking laws (a chaotic act) and slaying virtually innocent people based on personal preference (an evil act). Alright, I forgot that there is another important precedent in this case. We're going by the black and white D&D alignments. In real life you would be correct. "good" or "evil" is very arbitrary. And you can't decide on face value. However, in D&D, if someone detects you as "evil" you're "EVIL!" No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And looking at the SRD I'm seeing "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. So, to be evil you have to be hurting, oppressing, and/or killing others. You can't be evil and not do anything evil. Perhaps you don't care, but that's Neutral at any rate. And, you have to be doing these evil things to such a degree that it makes you evil. I'll edit my previous post and amend any future ideas with this precedent. But to repeat, real-world morality can't apply here, and if someone's evil, they're evil, and therefore its justified to stop them. To address your points. 1. El's Personality He's a wild soul, and will go through other means to achieve things that others may not. If someone's evil, they're worth elminating. Perhaps it could be argued that El could instead knock all the evil inhabitants unconscious and put them in a prison in one of his demi-planes under an anti-magic field 2. Laws/slaying ect. If someone's evil, they're evil, and should be eliminated, as per my statements above. As far as breaking the law, he's Chaotic Good and could care less about the law. As far as killing, I personally don't think its out of the queston, but as I stated earlier, he could probably subdue into unconsciousness all of these evil people and imprison them instead.
Alac Luin 10-09-06, 05:27 PM	Alright, I forgot that there is another important precedent in this case. We're going by the black and white D&D alignments. In real life you would be correct. "good" or "evil" is very arbitrary. And you can't decide on face value. However, in D&D, if someone detects you as "evil" you're "EVIL!" No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And looking at the SRD I'm seeing So, to be evil you have to be hurting, oppressing, and/or killing others. You can't be evil and not do anything evil. Perhaps you don't care, but that's Neutral at any rate. And, you have to be doing these evil things to such a degree that it makes you evil. I'll edit my previous post and amend any future ideas with this precedent. But to repeat, real-world morality can't apply here, and if someone's evil, they're evil, and therefore its justified to stop them. To address your points. 1. El's Personality He's a wild soul, and will go through other means to achieve things that others may not. If someone's evil, they're worth elminating. Perhaps it could be argued that El could instead knock all the evil inhabitants unconscious and put them in a prison in one of his demi-planes under an anti-magic field 2. Laws/slaying ect. If someone's evil, they're evil, and should be eliminated, as per my statements above. As far as breaking the law, he's Chaotic Good and could care less about the law. As far as killing, I personally don't think its out of the queston, but as I stated earlier, he could probably subdue into unconsciousness all of these evil people and imprison them instead. So every evil person deserves slaying? Yea, if you detect as "evil", you are "evil". But someone does not need to be a mass murderer to be "evil". Hurting people does does cover allot of ground, and does not necessarily deserve slaying (stopping sure, but slaying?). Now if I say this thread is hurting my head, to respond for no reason other then to make my head hurt more, that is an evil act. Does that mean the poster deserves slaying?
Ripe 10-09-06, 05:31 PM	One, this isn't in El's personality. Two, Acting in this manner is chaotic evil. So, he would need to kill himself to rid the world of evil. Take note, a large portion of of the evil people are not breaking any laws, or doing anything that justifies slaying them. So, he would be breaking laws (a chaotic act) and slaying virtually innocent people based on personal preference (an evil act). Alright, I forgot that there is another important precedent in this case. We're going by the black and white D&D alignments. In real life you would be correct. "good" or "evil" is very arbitrary. And you can't decide on face value. However, in D&D, if someone detects you as "evil" you're "EVIL!" No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And looking at the SRD I'm seeing "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. So, to be evil you have to be hurting, oppressing, and/or killing others. You can't be evil and not do anything evil. Perhaps you don't care, but that's Neutral at any rate. And, you have to be doing these evil things to such a degree that it makes you evil. Ah, I see part of the problem now. To me, [and I suspect most others who started playing during 2nd edition] 3E/3.5 alighnment guidelines are rather stupid. Not to mention that 3E/3.5 definition of "Evil" behavior is not evil behavior at all. It's idiotic, moronic and immature behavior. Not to mention insane. In my game, I still use 2nd ed alighment guidelines because they make much more sense.
Alac Luin 10-09-06, 05:45 PM	Just for reference.... 2ed Players Handbook "Evil is the antithesis of good and appears many ways, some overt and others quite subtle. Only a few people of evil nature actively seek to cause harm or destruction. Most simply do not recognize that what they do is destructive or disruptive. People and things that obstruct the evil charicter's plans are mere hinderances that must be overcome. If someone is harmed in the process... well, thats too bad."
Derren S. 10-09-06, 05:45 PM	I'm not ignoring it. I just put lore before some silly game rule. And if something in lore tells me something can't work, I don't care if game mechanic say that it can. That is the difference between us. Imo if the game rules say that something is possible then it should be done of logical. And if the lore says that despite common sense it isn't done only to preserve a "vision" then this vision is simply bad.
Alac Luin 10-09-06, 05:59 PM	So, since the rules say that "The Blackstaff" can level Waterdeep with earthquakes and meteor swarms, he should? EDIT: further reading, I now think "of logical" ment "if logical", so you can ignore the above coment. But fact of the matter, the "lore" does dictate what is logical.
Ripe 10-09-06, 06:02 PM	That is the difference between us. Imo if the game rules say that something is possible then it should be done of logical. And if the lore says that despite common sense it isn't done only to preserve a "vision" then this vision is simply bad. Game rules change. Sometimes drastically. Sometimes only slightly. But they change constantly [3.5 edition was what... sixth or seventh set of game rules?]. So why should we rewrite complete game setting, changing some long existing fact [which in-game would be called history] simply because game rules changed? FR was created during 1st edition days. It's somewhat adapted to 2nd edition game rules. But it made terrible transition to 3E/3.5 rules mostly because of drastic changes that came with 3E [namely HP inflation and multiclassing rules]. So yes, the "vision" made poor adaptation to rules of the game. But that does not make "vision" bad any more than it make game rules bad.
Karsus the Mad 10-09-06, 07:07 PM	That is the difference between us. Imo if the game rules say that something is possible then it should be done of logical. And if the lore says that despite common sense it isn't done only to preserve a "vision" then this vision is simply bad. That's just it. Much of what some people are stating are possible neither in terms of Lore, nor in terms of simple mechanics. Those that insist it is do so only because they ignore already established facts (of both Lore and Mechanics) in favor of their preconcieved notion of what they narrowly understand from an out-of-game reasoning. I am still waiting for my inquiry to be answered btw... Also, how many mortals have you met that have real common sense?;) Ah, I see part of the problem now. To me, [and I suspect most others who started playing during 2nd edition] 3E/3.5 alighnment guidelines are rather stupid. Not to mention that 3E/3.5 definition of "Evil" behavior is not evil behavior at all. It's idiotic, moronic and immature behavior. Not to mention insane. In my game, I still use 2nd ed alighment guidelines because they make much more sense. Well, I never played 2e except for the BG series of computer games, but I agree. In fact I agree beyond you I think:P I think 9 all encompassing moral alignments (regardless of edition), without regard to cultural or spiritual influence is simply a show of how narrow-minded and selfcentric the game can be. It's either "my way of thinking or no way" type of thing. Especially given that they're based on modern Western moral beliefs....which simply do not have a logical place in a fantasy pseudo-magical world where multiple gods do exist factually, and each deity inserts it own moral desires (or lack thereof) and outlook upon mortals.
Derren S. 10-10-06, 01:05 AM	Game rules change. Sometimes drastically. Sometimes only slightly. But they change constantly [3.5 edition was what... sixth or seventh set of game rules?]. So why should we rewrite complete game setting, changing some long existing fact [which in-game would be called history] simply because game rules changed? You forget that lore changes too.
ORC_Paradox 10-10-06, 03:08 AM	The best and easiest way to deal with it is to simply state that in your game, there is no Elminster. There is no Drizzt. This doesn't impact the world as bad as you would think. There's no major city named after either character. No Elminsterdale. No Drizztburg. ;)
Ripe 10-10-06, 04:23 AM	You forget that lore changes too. No I don't. Lore changes in a different way. And the change is rarelly as drastical as with game rules. And that change usually affect only current and future events. Very rarely some change affect FR retroactivelly, effectivelly retconing existing lore [Shadow Weave was one such event, and it left too many things unanswered]. Change in the game rules affect everything.
Derren S. 10-10-06, 06:40 AM	No I don't. Lore changes in a different way. And the change is rarelly as drastical as with game rules. And that change usually affect only current and future events. Lets see: - The shadow weave you already mentioned - The new cosmology - The removal of many gods - The change of the Faerun map in the 2ed-3rd Edition change - The decrease of the population of Faerun by 90% - Tchezzar always beeing a dragon (In 2ed the dragon only impersonated a human(oid) hero I think).
Ripe 10-10-06, 07:02 AM	- The shadow weave you already mentioned Like you said, I allready mentioned it. - The new cosmology Actually, forcing FR into standard 2nd ed Great Wheel was against original idea by Ed Greenwood. Realms should allways have their own cosmology, but it was TSR decision to fit everything together - The removal of many gods Which gods? All the Human, Elven, Dwarven, Gnomish, Halfling, Orcish and Drow deities from 2nd ed were still present in 3E. Sure, there were some dragon deities that got left out [and they were all brought back by now], and some other monsters pantheons had some names omited, but there was no disappearances amongst PC races. - The change of the Faerun map in the 2ed-3rd Edition change So? Maps of Earth got significant changes over the last 200 years alone simply because methods of their creation changed. So why shouldn't Faerunian cartographer's change map of Faerun as they got new, more accurate informations? - The decrease of the population of Faerun by 90% I don't think that it really was that big decrease. And the only region that got big number decrease is Calimshan, but most of the people agreed that 2nd ed numbers were too high and that current ones are closer to what they should be. Cormyr's population decrease is due to recent troubles that country's been in. - Tchezzar always beeing a dragon (In 2ed the dragon only impersonated a human(oid) hero I think). Honestlly, I don't think that game designers know what to do with Tchazzar. FRCS had him as a dragon impersonating a human hero in order to become deity. LEoF had him as a former deity killed and subsumed by Tiamat who grant spells in his name. Now, DoF had him as Chosen of Tiamat. I wouldn't be suprised if some future sourcebook does not list him as something else.
BrianCritchley 10-10-06, 02:35 PM	Lets see:[\quote] yes let's, then I will explain why these aren't retcons. [quote]- The shadow weave you already mentioned the Shadow Weave was a new thing yes, but not terriably - The new cosmology yeah that was a retcon but really FR was never about the cosmology anyway, the Planes in FR aren't terriably important because FR is abotu well.. Faerun - The removal of many gods most of whom have been folded back in via other supplements since F&P with no explination given suggesting that WOTC is aknowleding that the gods being dropped was a mistake on their part. if an attempted retcon only lasts 1 book I tend to ignore it ;) - The change of the Faerun map in the 2ed-3rd Edition change was this a retcon or was is simply a diffenrt mapper who did the ones from an IC prespective, even maps today sometimes look differnt. - The decrease of the population of Faerun by 90% does anyone really pay attention to exact population figures? sides honestly, I expect the population of faerun to have shrunk since 1357. what with all the distasters etc that have since occured. - Tchezzar always beeing a dragon (In 2ed the dragon only impersonated a human(oid) hero I think). seems to me that rather they simply clarified something, keep in mind that a lot of the old 2e source material was written from an in character prespective, and thus could be wrong. also, save a few "setting changes" like the planer cosmology which didn't effect faerun in the slightest. (yes I reiterate, Faerun is not really affected by the cosmology change, save very subtally) the changes you mentioned are certinly within the realm of "well golly gee volo screwed up.. again" retconning out the very existance of elminister and the chosen would have a substantially greater inpact on the setting.
BrennonGoldeye 10-10-06, 10:29 PM	By Eldath's Tears, has anybody ever read a RL history book? In 1950 they were alot dif than they are now. Does that mean the past changed? Duh:drool: The outlook changes, the history doesn't.:teach: Derren:bow: Sometimes the people viewing and recording an event don't understand the actual physics behind it, but it still happened. Take their explanation as evidence for the true cause.;) Ripe:bow: Relying upon the recollections of others over the actual ability for things to happen leads to demagoguery. Lore is what it is:"Traditional, anecdotal, or popular nature, on a particular subject." Not something a living world is based on.;) The discussion here has gone far beyond "Why doesn't Elminster do this?" The crux of playing in these beautifully forgotten realms is making all sources blend into a viability. Morphing El into an entirely new character with new feats, new skills, and the entire new history that must come with those choices is not about "Why doesn't Elminster do this?". Its about how can I improve upon the past. How can I do it better. How can I show my vision to the rest of the downtrodden world. If they just did it my way. It would all be better. I must show you how my way can save you. Don't resist my vision. It's for the best. Don't make me prove it to you. Just follow my rules and you won't get hurt. Resistance is futile:surrender .... Can anybody say Lawful Evil? Yep, that's the El we all know and love.:evillaugh Bill, can I please have the specifics of what feats El would lose to get those you would give him? And can you pretty pretty please show me just exactly how he is gonna cast your version of Eidelon, which by my "bean-counting" PC's estimation has a DC well into the 130's? Why don't you just start a thread called "How Bill would end all the silly conflict in the Realms". Now that's a thread I could get into.:schemes: As my final thought this evening(as it is giving me palpatations reading spells and feats being used without any knowledge of how to get them in the first place, let alone simple use of math) I will quote the latest reference I know of about El's stats. EPH pg.292 " For years he has confounded the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, and a hundred rival mages, but in his advanced age he now prefers to work through younger and more vigorous heroes rather than moving directly against his foes. Sounds like hard earned knowledge, I think I will take it....:ghosted:
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-11-06, 12:21 AM	So now we can't even use facts because you don't like them?:lightbulb That's not debating of any style I'm aware of. That's sounding a lot like a "I tell people what I want to happen, ignoring already established facts that go against what I want, making up my own to replace that which I purposely ignore so that what I want will be forced to happen, and expect everyone else to simply nod and say 'aye'.:ahem: :pbbbtt: :rant: :banghead: :headexplo " type of arguing. Eh. I'll offer one last tidbit.:whatsthis Don't forget to give the baddies the feats they ought to qualify for then as well. Otherwise the pre-determined:detect: ending will look even more suspicious:incog: . Especially Szass Tam. You might want to give him Epic Spellcasting...afterall, he did attempt to use an Epic spell on Eltab, despite not having the feat. I don't ever remember saying that you can't use facts. I'm just saying that all of my Arguments are Based on the Fact that Elminster will have the feats that he deserves, and that Elminster is living in the Black and White Morality D&D world. :) You are absolutely correct. All the high level casters will have Epic Spellcasting. Would Szass deny himself that kind of power? :smirk: I think not. You see, one of the problems here is that the greatest slave ovner in FR is Churches of Anhur [CG] and Horus-Re [LG]. And most of the killing is actually done by non-evil governments. Well :P if you can have slaves without "hurting or opressing them" then I guess you could still be good. However, if you are hurting or oppressing slaves, then you cannot be claiming to be doing a good act, and it is therefore right to free them. And so, such slave-states are in contradiction themselves :dancin: I'm not saying that they are not loyal to you. They are. The problem is that within the FR, if your soul is split between more than one body, that soul feel irresistible urge to kill all other copies of itself [and that include you, not just your clones or eidolons]. I've seen an example of a book changing the way clone worked for dramatic purposes, but I've yet to see any evidence that other spells would yeild the same results. Ice Assassin is an example of a spell in which the clone tries to kill the original, but that's the extent of it all. I just don't see the rules to back it up. :) I have to agree with you on that. But the problem is that ELH version of El was created by [or in cooperation by, I'm not sure which one is true] Ed Greenwood. And if man who created Elminster have choosen not to give him Epic Spellcasting, than El does not have Epic Spellcasting [and for that matter, neither does almost all the other FR epic caster]. I don't agree. The people who statted the Forgotten Realms iconic characters didn't do so with a lot of sense or realism. Elminster lives in that world and they don't. Given the power that is possible. He and everyone else would have researched taken Epic Spellcasting! As I said earlier. My points are based off of the fact that Elminster and others made reasonable feat choices. I guess I could make an argument about an unstatted FR High level caster, perhaps I could make my argument featuring Shoon VII, or perhaps Imvaernarho "Inferno" from Dragons of Faerun, or Any Freaking Great Wyrm Dragon from that book. They could easily be given the Epic Spellcasting feat, and my argument would not be very different. Really, the heart of the argument here is what is possible at epic levels. If Elminster doesn't have the right feat choices, all his efforts are for jack. If any one of his enemies has epic spellcasting and does what I've described, all of Faerun is Screwed. The opposite is true. If one Good PC has the right feat choices, and his/her enemies don't, then Faerun can be saved. It's simplistic, but true. I was a bit harsh there, so I apologize. Yes your arguments make some sense, the problem is that they are made from standpoint of game mechanic, and like I said, not everyone on this boards care about game mechanic that much. And, I understand where you're coming from. If this were comic books, I would have to make the same kind of arguments you are. The difference lies in that Forgotten Realms exists in the D&D world and is based on it. In fact forgotten realms has changed because of the edition change. Now Dragons have levels, now Dwarven Wizards exist and have histories, and apparently have been here for some time. So therefore, I can actually make an argument that wouldn't be doable otherwise. Just of interest: Would you let Simulacrums take all 17 level of Wizard [or some combo of Wizard/Archmage] or would you force them take levels in Rogue and Cleric [possibly even Fighter] as well since it state that they can have max of 1/2 originals HD/level? I would love to ignore those useless fighter, rogue, and cleric levels :rolleye2: I don't think that I can though.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-11-06, 12:21 AM	So every evil person deserves slaying? Yea, if you detect as "evil", you are "evil". But someone does not need to be a mass murderer to be "evil". Hurting people does does cover allot of ground, and does not necessarily deserve slaying (stopping sure, but slaying?). Now if I say this thread is hurting my head, to respond for no reason other then to make my head hurt more, that is an evil act. Does that mean the poster deserves slaying? I don't think I ever said that every Evil person deserves slaying. You could also incapacitate and imprison the evil people as well. As I also said earlier, you have do do enough an act to such a degree that it is evil, and you have to do it enough to Be Evil. So no, I don't deserve slaying. Although I am sorry that your head was hurting :D Ah, I see part of the problem now. To me, [and I suspect most others who started playing during 2nd edition] 3E/3.5 alighnment guidelines are rather stupid. Not to mention that 3E/3.5 definition of "Evil" behavior is not evil behavior at all. It's idiotic, moronic and immature behavior. Not to mention insane. In my game, I still use 2nd ed alighment guidelines because they make much more sense. Just for reference.... 2ed Players Handbook "Evil is the antithesis of good and appears many ways, some overt and others quite subtle. Only a few people of evil nature actively seek to cause harm or destruction. Most simply do not recognize that what they do is destructive or disruptive. People and things that obstruct the evil charicter's plans are mere hinderances that must be overcome. If someone is harmed in the process... well, thats too bad." Well, Forgotten Realms is in the 3rd edition now, and that's how third edition defines alignment. In my opinion, personally, 2nd edition alignment is Moronic. How can you be evil and yet do nothing evil? That doesn't make sense to me. [QUOTE=WizO_Paradox]The best and easiest way to deal with it is to simply state that in your game, there is no Elminster. There is no Drizzt. This doesn't impact the world as bad as you would think. There's no major city named after either character. No Elminsterdale. No Drizztburg. ;) There's nothing wrong with Elminster or Drizzt (certainly not Drizzt). The only problem is a belief that the Realms should be in their current state with all these high powered casters about. By Eldath's Tears, has anybody ever read a RL history book? In 1950 they were alot dif than they are now. Does that mean the past changed? Duh:drool: The outlook changes, the history doesn't.:teach: Derren:bow: Sometimes the people viewing and recording an event don't understand the actual physics behind it, but it still happened. Take their explanation as evidence for the true cause.;) Ripe:bow: Relying upon the recollections of others over the actual ability for things to happen leads to demagoguery. Lore is what it is:"Traditional, anecdotal, or popular nature, on a particular subject." Not something a living world is based on.;) The discussion here has gone far beyond "Why doesn't Elminster do this?" The crux of playing in these beautifully forgotten realms is making all sources blend into a viability. Morphing El into an entirely new character with new feats, new skills, and the entire new history that must come with those choices is not about "Why doesn't Elminster do this?". Its about how can I improve upon the past. How can I do it better. How can I show my vision to the rest of the downtrodden world. If they just did it my way. It would all be better. I must show you how my way can save you. Don't resist my vision. It's for the best. Don't make me prove it to you. Just follow my rules and you won't get hurt. Resistance is futile:surrender .... Can anybody say Lawful Evil? Yep, that's the El we all know and love. Bill, can I please have the specifics of what feats El would lose to get those you would give him? And can you pretty pretty please show me just exactly how he is gonna cast your version of Eidelon, which by my "bean-counting" PC's estimation has a DC well into the 130's? Why don't you just start a thread called "How Bill would end all the silly conflict in the Realms". Now that's a thread I could get into. As my final thought this evening(as it is giving me palpatations reading spells and feats being used without any knowledge of how to get them in the first place, let alone simple use of math) I will quote the latest reference I know of about El's stats. EPH pg.292 " For years he has confounded the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, and a hundred rival mages, but in his advanced age he now prefers to work through younger and more vigorous heroes rather than moving directly against his foes. Sounds like hard earned knowledge, I think I will take it.... :rofl: I'm not making Elminster Lawful Evil. I'm making Elminster intelligent. I can get into the specifics in a bit. I've got some studying to do. Looking at the ELH and Elminster at base value, he already has several (relatively) useless feats (imo), Blooded, Craft Staff, Enhance Spell, Luck of Heroes, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration. He can lose any of those and be perfectly fine. Elminster can easily cast a better and permanent version of Eidolon. He has all of his simulacrums donate a spell slot to lower the Spellcraft DC. So it can be really high and still be ok. EPH pg.292 " For years he has confounded the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, and a hundred rival mages, but in his advanced age he now prefers to work through younger and more vigorous heroes rather than moving directly against his foes. Sounds like hard earned knowledge, I think I will take it.... Lol. He couldn't directly move against his foes even if he wanted to. All the young and vigorous heroes in the world don't matter. Now, if Elminster is having problems being dedicated and vigilant, he should just make a spell which helps him be more dedicated and vigilant. In other words that quote makes no sense, is inane, and total crap :D .......Although it can look good on paper :angelhide As far as another thread. Heh, I could do that if I really wanted. It'd be really funny to get into these arguments all over again :D
Alac Luin 10-11-06, 01:02 AM	I don't think I ever said that every Evil person deserves slaying. You could also incapacitate and imprison the evil people as well. As I also said earlier, you have do do enough an act to such a degree that it is evil, and you have to do it enough to Be Evil. So no, I don't deserve slaying. Although I am sorry that your head was hurting :D So you are just posting to make my head hurt worse:P I'm in an argument on another alignment thread, so I have little else to say here.
BrianCritchley 10-11-06, 02:18 AM	he already has several (relatively) useless feats (imo), Blooded, Craft Staff, Enhance Spell, Luck of Heroes, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration. sure from a power gamer POV Elminister isn't totally ideal, but unlike your personal mage, Elminister isn't a power gamer, these days spell penatration [proably doesn't get much use, but back when he was a 14th level adventurerert I bet it helped him lots. Spell penatration is a rather useful feat. most of my wizard chars I've made have picked up up, true it may not be too useful at level 35 or so but it's plenty useful when fighting bad guys will spell resistance about on par with the right CR. (especially when they've got about 5 levels of Multiclassed non-wizard levels) Blooded yet again it a rather useful feat considering, +2 to spot and +2 to init, not so useful at epic levels, but then again VERY handy at lower levels, it's a favored regional feat at my table. then again we don't build our chars to be optimized at epic level we build em to REACH epic level ;) . Craft Staff, why is this "useless"? in fact given Elminister's major purpose in life he outta have as many item crafting spells as can be given to him, considering a day in his life often includes sneaking magic items into old tombs for adventurers to find. Enhance Spell, I'm sure it has it's uses I don't use metamagic but metamagic can be useful at times. Luck of Heros is yet again a spell not terriably handy for a high level char but damned great at lower levels for boosting your saves. that being said it's a regional feat and via the new regional feat rules I suppose this feat might be one to drop. Skilll focus is kinda needed for the Archmage PRC. obviously he NEEDS to keep that, he also NEEDS those two spell focus feats, really the feats El has work fine, does he lack epic level magic yes, but epic level magic seems pretty rare in faerun, so I doubt Elminister needs to worry about it, I mean 99% of all epic magic in faerun is proably elven high magic and similer things. the creation of wards and that type of thing. Elminister and all the canon NPCs are NOT perfect, they aren't intended to be, they are rather designed to reflect their history and personality, this is a trueism for every WOTC product, I mean, the core stats in star wars RPG also aren't that great
BrennonGoldeye 10-11-06, 01:04 PM	:rofl: I'm not making Elminster Lawful Evil. I'm making Elminster intelligent. Um, He is already more intelligent than you(or I) could ever hope to be. As we are both making painfully obvious. Make your Billminster. Have at it. It's your world. Enjoy it. Thats what the game is about. Just remind all the players that your world died Eons ago due to Haulism...(all respect to Monty:$$: ). I can get into the specifics in a bit. I've got some studying to do. Looking at the ELH and Elminster at base value, he already has several (relatively) useless feats (imo), Blooded, Craft Staff, Enhance Spell, Luck of Heroes, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration. I believe Brian has already put that quote to bed. He can lose any of those and be perfectly fine. Elminster can easily cast a better and permanent version of Eidolon. He has all of his simulacrums donate a spell slot to lower the Spellcraft DC. So it can be really high and still be ok. Um, just plain no. Read the spells. The starting DC of a permanent Eidolon is 375. Pour all the simulacrum cast spells you want into it. Simulcrums who are 1/1/2/12/oops I don't qualify for Archmage aren't going to be contributing that much, and they would be totally useless(by your own admission) in any fight with someone of El's level. Greater Dispel:mage: Wow, look at all the melting snow! Actually take the time to work it out on paper. Or heaven forbid play it out. Things don't work that way, if they did El would have never had a chance to be born. Karsus anyone? Terraseer? Frickin Halaster? All would have nuked:headexplo Faerun if Bill's way actually worked. :rolleyes: Lol. He couldn't directly move against his foes even if he wanted to. If he can't move against his foes, what the Hades is your point? This thread is based on, wait for it, "Why doesn't Elminster do this?". Once again, start a new thread based on Bill's world. I would truly love to be there. All the young and vigorous heroes in the world don't matter. Wow, must be alot of fun to play in your world.... Now, if Elminster is having problems being dedicated and vigilant, he should just make a spell which helps him be more dedicated and vigilant. Is there anyplace in your mind that understands who El is? What he stands for? Roll on the floor all you want, but your El would not only be removed from his Chosen status but quickly set upon by the Chosen who were left. Read a novel for Midnight's sake. I'll send one to you by FedEx free of charge.... In other words that quote makes no sense, is inane, and total crap :D I'm sure Andy and Bruce appreciate that. Coming from a true expert on crap that must have some weight.:rolleyes: .......Although it can look good on paper :angelhide Not looks good, plays well. It is a game meant for enjoyment after all. As far as another thread. Heh, I could do that if I really wanted. It'd be really funny to get into these arguments all over again :D Who would argue, your world, not ours. Welcome to Billville:globe: Enjoy your short lifespan....:bump: :ghosted:
Ripe 10-11-06, 02:04 PM	I don't think I ever said that every Evil person deserves slaying. You could also incapacitate and imprison the evil people as well. As I also said earlier, you have do do enough an act to such a degree that it is evil, and you have to do it enough to Be Evil. So no, I don't deserve slaying. Although I am sorry that your head was hurting :D Which is hurting and oppressing other. Which is by 3E/3.5 Black & White D&D morality an EVIL act. "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. So if you imprison a thief, you're hurting and oppressing him and you're evil. If you kill an evil person you commited an evil act and you're evil. If you do anything that affect another negativelly, you're commiting evil act and your're evil. The reasons why you do something does not matter. I wonder how can anybody be anything other than evil following such moral guidelines. Well, Forgotten Realms is in the 3rd edition now, and that's how third edition defines alignment. In my opinion, personally, 2nd edition alignment is Moronic. How can you be evil and yet do nothing evil? That doesn't make sense to me. That was because in 2nd edition it was not a question of WHAT you're doing, it's WHY are you doing it! And if you quote something, make sure you have complete quote. You missed the last line: "Remember that evil, like good, is interpreted differently in different societies." There's nothing wrong with Elminster or Drizzt (certainly not Drizzt). The only problem is a belief that the Realms should be in their current state with all these high powered casters about. [/qoute] Why? If none of those high-powered casters have Epic Spellcasting [which they don't have], and if you don't use stupid 3E/3.5 Black & White morality, Realms are just in a state in which they should have been. [Quote]I'm not making Elminster Lawful Evil. I'm making Elminster intelligent. No, if we follow Black & White 3E/3.5 alignments you're making El Lawful Evil. I can get into the specifics in a bit. I've got some studying to do. Looking at the ELH and Elminster at base value, he already has several (relatively) useless feats (imo), Blooded, Craft Staff, Enhance Spell, Luck of Heroes, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration. He can lose any of those and be perfectly fine. Elminster can easily cast a better and permanent version of Eidolon. He has all of his simulacrums donate a spell slot to lower the Spellcraft DC. So it can be really high and still be ok. Well, Skill Focus [Spellcraft] and two Spell Focus feats are prerequisites to become Archmage. So he need those. Spell Penetration may not be of much use to someone with 29 caster levels, but when El took it he was much, much lower level caster and that feat was of big use then. Blooded and Luck of Heroes are regional feats that could be taken only at first level and they are both very, very usefull to 1st level Fighter [+1 to all saves, and +2 to Spot and Initiative]. True, by 3.5 rules he could take only one of them so you could loose one of them. Enhance Spell is a usefull metamagic feat. Even more so considering that El also have Twin spell feat AND Improved metamagic [can anybody say Twined Enhanced Fireball casted from 8th level spell slot?] As far as reducing Spellcraft DC by having simulacrums contribute spell slots... isn't there a rule saying that you may not reduce Spellcraft DC for Epic spell bellow it's base DC [it should be, but...]? If it is than Eidolon is beyond Elminster's capability due to it's 69 base spellcraft DC [Elminster have only +40 to Spellcraft]. If not, permanent Eidolon have Spellcraft DC 520 [69 base + 35 factors = 104 * 5 for making it permanent]. For each 100 XP burned you can reduce DC by 1. And each Simulacrum can contribute spells of maximum 7th level [since they have 17 levels and 3 of those are Fighter, Rogue and Cleric]. Now since you had to reduce Spellcraft DC to at least 50 you'll need around 35 Simulacrums each contributing a 7th level spell [which they could do only twice a day].
Ripe 10-11-06, 02:13 PM	... Um, just plain no. Read the spells. The starting DC of a permanent Eidolon is 375. ... You miscalculated. Mitigating factors are applied last. So those -25 from burning 2500 XP is applied after you add all the factors togethe all the factors together and multiply them by 5 for making the spell permanent. So that 375 would be good. It's actually 520.
Ripe 10-11-06, 02:28 PM	... Well :P if you can have slaves without "hurting or opressing them" then I guess you could still be good. However, if you are hurting or oppressing slaves, then you cannot be claiming to be doing a good act, and it is therefore right to free them. And so, such slave-states are in contradiction themselves :dancin: But they still exist. And that is because FR is not Black and White Morality D&D world. I've seen an example of a book changing the way clone worked for dramatic purposes, but I've yet to see any evidence that other spells would yeild the same results. Ice Assassin is an example of a spell in which the clone tries to kill the original, but that's the extent of it all. I just don't see the rules to back it up. :) Actually it was backed up by 2nd ed rules. Which is irrelevant. The fact is that within FR if your soul is split in more than one body, those body's are forced to fight if they come near to one another. I don't agree. The people who statted the Forgotten Realms iconic characters didn't do so with a lot of sense or realism. Elminster lives in that world and they don't. Given the power that is possible. He and everyone else would have researched taken Epic Spellcasting! Actually having FR iconinc characters [or everyone else] not having Epic Spellcasting feat makes perfect sense. In fact, Epic Spellcasting should not exist within FR [unfortunatelly WotC make it so that it does]. If you think about it, following Karsus casting his Avatar spell and Mystryl's suicide, the first thing that Mystra did is ban all the 10+ level spells because they were too powerfull. But she does not ban Epic Spells which are just as powerfull and potent!!!!! If not even more powerfull. Am I the only one who find that weird? As I said earlier. My points are based off of the fact that Elminster and others made reasonable feat choices. I guess I could make an argument about an unstatted FR High level caster, perhaps I could make my argument featuring Shoon VII, or perhaps Imvaernarho "Inferno" from Dragons of Faerun, or Any Freaking Great Wyrm Dragon from that book. They could easily be given the Epic Spellcasting feat, and my argument would not be very different. Yes, they can be. Really, the heart of the argument here is what is possible at epic levels. If Elminster doesn't have the right feat choices, all his efforts are for jack. If any one of his enemies has epic spellcasting and does what I've described, all of Faerun is Screwed. The opposite is true. If one Good PC has the right feat choices, and his/her enemies don't, then Faerun can be saved. It's simplistic, but true. You ignore one very important factor: DEITIES. If someone started blasting people away [regardless of who], deity who those people worsiped would almost certainly interfere [because he/she does, for some part depend on their worship for his/her power] and would blast that someone away. And no matter what, in any mortal vs. deity confrontation mortal dies. And, I understand where you're coming from. If this were comic books, I would have to make the same kind of arguments you are. The difference lies in that Forgotten Realms exists in the D&D world and is based on it. In fact forgotten realms has changed because of the edition change. Now Dragons have levels, now Dwarven Wizards exist and have histories, and apparently have been here for some time. So therefore, I can actually make an argument that wouldn't be doable otherwise. Actually, Forgotten Realms is based on a 1st edition D&D, not it's current version. So yes, it changed because of edition changes and not all of those changes were for the better. Or improved Realms. And you can't ignore that. I would love to ignore those useless fighter, rogue, and cleric levels :rolleye2: I don't think that I can though. Same here. So they'd be what? Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Cleric 2/Wizard 13?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-11-06, 06:11 PM	You people are getting bogged down on minor details that would not apply to equally or more powerful evil casters. You're also confused about Epic Spellcasting. Eidolon is just an example of an Epic Spell. It could be made so that it takes a day to cast. It could be made so that it lasts one minute. It could be made so that it takes 10,000 xp to cast. It could be made so that it takes 0 xp to cast. The version of Eidolon that Elminster will make will cost him 0 xp, and the eidolon will last forever. It will also require about a 100 or so simulacrums donating a 6th level spell. Yes, you can have a s many additional spellcasters as you want donating spells, and that's what El does. I'll address your points and perhaps make a new thread later. As I said earlier, you're getting bogged down on certain points. IF this argument was about Shoon VII or any High Level Dracolich, many of these points wouldn't have even come up.
MaskedOne 10-11-06, 06:35 PM	Actually having FR iconinc characters [or everyone else] not having Epic Spellcasting feat makes perfect sense. In fact, Epic Spellcasting should not exist within FR [unfortunatelly WotC make it so that it does]. If you think about it, following Karsus casting his Avatar spell and Mystryl's suicide, the first thing that Mystra did is ban all the 10+ level spells because they were too powerfull. But she does not ban Epic Spells which are just as powerfull and potent!!!!! If not even more powerfull. Am I the only one who find that weird? Don't blame this merely on WotC. TSR provided the 2E equivalent of Epic Spellcasting to Toril through True Dweomers which could mimic to varying degrees 10+ spells. Dependent on interpretation level 10 spells remained available throughout Toril's history as well with certain restrictions from Mystra. That particular point is made in Secrets of the Magister by Greenwood. The only question is whether those level 10 spells were True Dweomers or an alternate form of high level magic. GothicDan pointed out some evidence of a distinction between the two a while back in the text of Secrets of the Magister but I'm not in the mood to go into detail. High Level magic was available outside of Elven High Magic prior to WotC, it can be proven with minimal effort. I'm not particularly interested in going on side tangents over it though.
Karsus the Mad 10-11-06, 06:38 PM	My first reply didn't even bloody show up!:headexplo Ah well, will do this el' quicko reply:) ... Well if you can have slaves without "hurting or opressing them" then I guess you could still be good. However, if you are hurting or oppressing slaves, then you cannot be claiming to be doing a good act, and it is therefore right to free them. And so, such slave-states are in contradiction themselves Regardless of condition, slavery, by its very definition, is oppression. You are forcing someone to do (or be) something that they have not chosen to do (or be). Following your black and white alignment ideals, the LG Paladin pharoah of Mulhorand is Evil, which according to DnD simply cannot be. Thankfully FR doesn't follow such absolutist views/narrow interpretations, and takes into account perception, culture, religious abstracts, etc. Actually having FR iconinc characters [or everyone else] not having Epic Spellcasting feat makes perfect sense. In fact, Epic Spellcasting should not exist within FR [unfortunatelly WotC make it so that it does]. If you think about it, following Karsus casting his Avatar spell and Mystryl's suicide, the first thing that Mystra did is ban all the 10+ level spells because they were too powerfull. But she does not ban Epic Spells which are just as powerfull and potent!!!!! If not even more powerfull. Am I the only one who find that weird? Epic spells can duplicate 10th+ magic, but the price is always high. Otherwise the DC is simply impossible to accomplish. It's perfectly fine within FR, being nothing more than an ancient technique for "above 9th" magic; high magic and true dweomers most notably. Both of which existed in earlier editions and are an intrinsical aspect of FR. If you find that weird, then you should find it weird that elves shattered the planet and reformed it to their desire, killing uncounted millions (among other things...creation of vilhon reach, creation of the high moore, etc)...without retribution from the gods...yet one human in the persuit of the dogma laid down by the very deity he tried to replace, casting a single spell, brings about such a drastic punishment whiles others have previously done far greater atrocities....now that's weird. IF this argument was about Shoon VII or any High Level Dracolich, many of these points wouldn't have even come up. But it's not, therefore they will;)
Dark Wizard 10-11-06, 07:29 PM	While the truth I pointed out a page ago might not be amazing (I simply see it as is - common and real), it's still the truth. No one has really fully (or even significantly) debunked it, whether with lore or mechanics. The whole Epic level power mechanics arguments don't even address it. If anything, they're just taking that balance of power to another level. Elminster can do it, but so can BBEG 1, BBEG 2, BBEG 3 ... BBEG 10... They can do it first, then some good guy will get them, and the next bad guy gets them. Before you know it the world explodes and none of these archmages have their sandbox anymore. No one, aside from Shar, wants this to happen, and a lot of people are countering Shar's people. So we're back to a balance again. Another possibility is that archmages have defenses against these tactics, so no one bothers with them. While the Epic spell system isn't the most balanced thing in the game, it still has balances. If you're honestly going to use mechanics to show something, at least try to get it right and definitely don't ignore the facts and procedures that go against your arguments, your statements just end up weak and unconvincing. Epic magic opens up so many holes and arguments, you get caught up in the poorly designed system rather than constructively going at the topic. That is why I agree with (anti-FR) people who say that having NPCs of such high levels is pointless since it forces you to use Epic rules. Epic rules lack balance and allow these characters to do too much, far beyond what is logical in a coherent setting and supported by the lore. FR as a setting can't take the full blame for this as a serious power creep has taken hold of the iconic NPCs over the last three editions. All the while, some less iconic NPCs have lost levels as have formerly fearsome critters (aka Champions of Ruin). On a side note, look at real current events. North Korea (a relatively small, underdeveloped country) has a confirmed nuclear weapons capability. You don't see the superpowers of the world launching a massive overwhelming preemptive strike (some want to no doubt, but that's not how the world works). All the superpowers are rather jittery about it, analyzing possibilities, computing projections, creating models, opening lines of communications, building anti-missile defenses, etc.
BrennonGoldeye 10-11-06, 08:22 PM	You miscalculated. Mitigating factors are applied last. So those -25 from burning 2500 XP is applied after you add all the factors togethe all the factors together and multiply them by 5 for making the spell permanent. So that 375 would be good. It's actually 520. True, true. Epic Spell DC calculation always brings on mini-seizures in my frontal cortex. I've gone through all the examples in the ELH and have yet to find two spells calculated the same way. Way to go editing staff!:) Oh yeah, minor details are the things that make the big details possible. Nobody is hung up on them, we are standing on them. Its called basis. Something all those minor little details back up. Argh, enough with tha blabberin..... Anybody wanna order a pizza?
Zargain 10-11-06, 09:09 PM	Okay... listen all fo you who argue mechanicaly, Elminster's abilities... You have your rulebooks, your source books, your message boards, your friends who show you spell and feat combos, you're own time to read the rules and figure these things. El does not... sure, he might be capable of these things but consider that these are non-existant in the in-game Faerun. If you argue otherwise all you need is some power-gamer to figue out how the evil guys can retaliate. Hence... if El tried it all in the way you're describing he'd end up dying all and his last words would be "Hax!" I'm done here I think... I'm sure this might be a victory to the constantly persistant people here but no one will change their minds in this one way or another, you'd get as much acomplished by just saying "No he can't" "Yes he can!" back and forth.
BrianCritchley 10-12-06, 03:10 AM	Regardless of condition, slavery, by its very definition, is oppression. You are forcing someone to do (or be) something that they have not chosen to do (or be). Following your black and white alignment ideals, the LG Paladin pharoah of Mulhorand is Evil, which according to DnD simply cannot be. Thankfully FR doesn't follow such absolutist views/narrow interpretations, and takes into account perception, culture, religious abstracts, etc. well given the way it operates the slavery in Mulhorand is, IIRC, more forced indentured servitude for the crminals. honestly I think it is quite differnt from what we think of when we normally think slvary.
BrennonGoldeye 10-12-06, 07:34 AM	Okay... listen all fo you who argue mechanicaly, Elminster's abilities... You have your rulebooks, your source books, your message boards, your friends who show you spell and feat combos, you're own time to read the rules and figure these things. El does not... sure, he might be capable of these things but consider that these are non-existant in the in-game Faerun. If you argue otherwise all you need is some power-gamer to figue out how the evil guys can retaliate. Hence... if El tried it all in the way you're describing he'd end up dying all and his last words would be "Hax!" I'm done here I think... I'm sure this might be a victory to the constantly persistant people here but no one will change their minds in this one way or another, you'd get as much acomplished by just saying "No he can't" "Yes he can!" back and forth. Gonna have to agree and for my own heart health do the same. Later-Taters.:bow:
Thanqol 10-13-06, 08:20 PM	I had a thought. If we remove alignment from D&D then none of this sillyness would exist! Without some "CG" title stuck on Elminister, then we could describe him as "An old man who saved the world before but is retired and does not want to do anything any more." And no one could argue. Because there's no empherial exalted title to pin him to and force him to uphold. So please, everyone. Shred alignment. And then we can end these stupid debates.
Alac Luin 10-13-06, 08:36 PM	Actually, there is no reason to get rid of Alignment. People need to focus less on it. CG is no exalted title, it describes that that he has given of himself to help someone. A CG commoner can be such if he has fed a hungry person that he comes across. We don't expect that commoner to go out and seek hungry people to keep that CG. We don't expect that commoner to do any more. Why should we expect a CG to go seeking trouble? If El is in an area and sees innocents being hurt, we can expect him to help them, thats really all CG means, not that he will seek out people to save.
Thanqol 10-14-06, 12:50 AM	Actually, there is no reason to get rid of Alignment. People need to focus less on it. CG is no exalted title, it describes that that he has given of himself to help someone. A CG commoner can be such if he has fed a hungry person that he comes across. We don't expect that commoner to go out and seek hungry people to keep that CG. We don't expect that commoner to do any more. Why should we expect a CG to go seeking trouble? If El is in an area and sees innocents being hurt, we can expect him to help them, thats really all CG means, not that he will seek out people to save. Nah, the alignment system says unless you're really heroic you stick at Neutral. Forever. That commoner who helps people out is Neutral. Handing coins to a blind man still leaves you Neutral. Now if he DID go out of his way to feed hungry people, then he'd be CG. Neutral doesn't mean apathetic, though. If NN Elminister is in an area and sees people being hurt, he'll stop it. CG Elminister does seek it out. Not my definition, remember. It's the silly, *SILLY* one provided by WotC.
Ripe 10-14-06, 07:33 AM	Nah, the alignment system says unless you're really heroic you stick at Neutral. Forever. That commoner who helps people out is Neutral. Handing coins to a blind man still leaves you Neutral. Now if he DID go out of his way to feed hungry people, then he'd be CG. Neutral doesn't mean apathetic, though. If NN Elminister is in an area and sees people being hurt, he'll stop it. CG Elminister does seek it out. Not my definition, remember. It's the silly, *SILLY* one provided by WotC. You're mistaking NG with CG [which is apparently a common fault at this boards]. From SRD: Neutral Good, “Benefactor”: A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them.. Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order. Chaotic Good, “Rebel”: A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society. Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit
Thanqol 10-14-06, 08:13 AM	Huh. So CG is "Good when I feel like it". If you're applying it to this situation, it's almost a lesser good than NG. Meaning that if he was NG he *would* do all he could to help people, but because he's CG he doesn't? Argh!
Ripe 10-14-06, 02:13 PM	Huh. So CG is "Good when I feel like it". If you're applying it to this situation, it's almost a lesser good than NG. Meaning that if he was NG he *would* do all he could to help people, but because he's CG he doesn't? Argh! Well, NG is the ultimate, greater good. Just as NE is the ultimate, greater evil.
Derren S. 10-14-06, 03:07 PM	Well, NG is the ultimate, greater good. Just as NE is the ultimate, greater evil. So then tell me, what makes CG less good then neutral?
Dark Wizard 10-14-06, 03:38 PM	Because the Yugoloths say so for NE, and if it works for NE, it must work for NG. :P (j/k) D&D alignments are borderline silly. Other than a very general outline of behavioral tendencies the Lawful/Chaotic/Good/Evil axes are most helpful in deciding which weapon enchantments and spells you take damage or effects from, that's about it.
Alac Luin 10-14-06, 06:50 PM	Nah, the alignment system says unless you're really heroic you stick at Neutral. Forever. That commoner who helps people out is Neutral. Handing coins to a blind man still leaves you Neutral. Now if he DID go out of his way to feed hungry people, then he'd be CG. Neutral doesn't mean apathetic, though. If NN Elminister is in an area and sees people being hurt, he'll stop it. CG Elminister does seek it out. Not my definition, remember. It's the silly, *SILLY* one provided by WotC. Where does it say you have to be "really heroic"? (I'll admit, I don't have the 3.5 PHB) From what I have, it does use words like "convictions", "paramount", etc, but see nothing that says "heroic". How about this line.. "People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. " Assuming that commoner is actually making a personal sacrifice, which is likely, to feed someone they do not know it is definitely a "good" act (as they have no personal relationship with the hungry person). Yes, this one act does not effect a life long alignment, but a trend like this does. Also note, "hungry" and "on deaths door from starvation" are different. Heck, many evil people will feed someone so they don't die.
GothicDan 10-14-06, 09:43 PM	Just read Planescape. Alignment makes a lot more sense, then. And it's a lot more fun, too! Alternatively, read the Elric Saga, which alignment was obviously based off of, in large part. And, ironically, the 'hero' of those novels, was basically CE/CN. Wait, no! Do both.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-15-06, 05:48 AM	I had a thought. If we remove alignment from D&D then none of this sillyness would exist! Without some "CG" title stuck on Elminister, then we could describe him as "An old man who saved the world before but is retired and does not want to do anything any more." And no one could argue. Because there's no empherial exalted title to pin him to and force him to uphold. So please, everyone. Shred alignment. And then we can end these stupid debates. Elminster does not have to do what I suggested. Shoon VII or any Great Wyrm worth his salt could.
Dark Wizard 10-15-06, 05:36 PM	And Elminster, all the other good NPCs, and especially the good aligned PCs would be there to stop them. Just as they are there to stop the good guys. Any tactics someone can use, an equal or even more powerful entity exists that can do so as well. Beyond that the gods, beyond them Ao (as much as I dislike Ao's concept and execution), beyond them who knows.
The Ubbergeek 10-15-06, 05:57 PM	ALignements is a dear part of D&D, a very important part of it. Evil and Good, Chaos and Order, they are not just concepts - as shown in Planescape, they ARE, tangible, real force. Alignement descriptors are the descriptions of the forces your characters are touched by, so. And true, a MODERATE form of Neutrality is common (not necessarly TN). LN, TN, NG, CN, NE.... Rare are the more aligned ones.
Cthulhu 10-16-06, 04:33 AM	Ever got tired of your Characters asking every single person who hires them why doesn't Elminster handle the job? Well, believe it or not, the strongest NPCs in the Realms are Evil! That means that if Elminster started zipping around willy-nilly, all those powerful evil figures would have put him in his place already. Thus, Elminster is keeping a low profile in Shadowdale. I think this is one of those things that only has a life on the forums. Sure it can be annoying for a second at the table but only on these boards does it balloon into a multipage discussion of a non-problem.