Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ClobberinTime 11-02-07, 02:27 PM	Ok, here are some things that I was thinking will be good about the 4e realms: 1, Putting the FR back into the D+D cosmology. The changes to many core things like elves now being eladrin etc... means that FR now needs to be part of the core cosmology. It is also clear that there will be a core cosmology, was well with all of the changes to demons being almost elementals, arch demons and devils being almost gods, etc..... The FR was intended to be part of the greater D+D cosmology, and will be so again. Renovated Great Wheel here we come. 2, The fey wild or whatever they are calling the cotemporaneous fey realms. This has been in the FR from the start but was never really brought into focus. Now it will be and it has the potential to be really cool, just like the plane of shadow etc... etc..... Emphasizing the fey, will be fun I think. 3, Back to a big FR. The 1e and 2e maps describe a continent with approximately twice the area of the US and Canada combined, the 3e map shrinks everything into about 1/2 that size. Making the North bigger, returns it to its original feel back in the days of the old gray box. Waterdeep is 30 miles from the frontier. Yartar is a frontier town, and Silverymoon is an oasis in the back country. 4, This one people might disagree with, but I can't stand Mystra, oddly I like the chosen of Mystra though. Selune should be, and I hope will be the new goddess of good magic. Oghma will be the god of all knowledge including magical knowledge, and Shar well she is the goddess of evil magic. Azuth will be the deity of wizards, the arch-magister or whatever. Basically I see 4e as a way to undo all the damage that was done to D+D during the days of late 2e. TSR during 2e actually was run the way lots of people here are accusing WoTC of being run now, i.e. by people who don't understand the game they are selling and what does and does not make sense. 3e got hamstrung by all of the awfull decisions made during the late 2e days. Personally I am kind of looking forward to see what the 4e designers have come up with.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-02-07, 03:34 PM	Ok, here are some things that I was thinking will be good about the 4e realms: 2, The fey wild or whatever they are calling the cotemporaneous fey realms. This has been in the FR from the start but was never really brought into focus. Now it will be and it has the potential to be really cool, just like the plane of shadow etc... etc..... Emphasizing the fey, will be fun I think. Please, anything but the word "cool"... 3, Back to a big FR. The 1e and 2e maps describe a continent with approximately twice the area of the US and Canada combined, the 3e map shrinks everything into about 1/2 that size. Making the North bigger, returns it to its original feel back in the days of the old gray box. Waterdeep is 30 miles from the frontier. Yartar is a frontier town, and Silverymoon is an oasis in the back country. Where was it confirmed that the map would be stretched out back to its original size?
MarkusTay63 11-02-07, 04:40 PM	All we know is that the maps WILL be changed (to what degree, we have NO idea), and that there will be 'empty places' and wilderness area for the DMs to fill in themselves (ala POL). That is what is confirmed, but that is ALL that is confirmed. I think Clobber is hoping that they are giving us these 'new' empty regions by putting the maps back RIGHT. I, on the other hand, am not so optomistic. After reading about how many of the designers feel about certain areas of the Realms, I think we are going to get our 'empty areas' by them nuking existing regions - ones that THEY didn't personally care for. I hope GK is part of the creation process, otherwise kiss the whole Dragonreach and Bloodstone lands goodbye. :( Although they may just leave some of that for the 'living Realms".... again. :rolleyes: The funny thing is, that I always felt that the Shaar served exactly this purpose - thats why I put back Shaareach. ;)
Stigger 11-02-07, 05:30 PM	Got a feeling I'm not going to be happy with the planar stuff. Once I read something about devils as fallen celestials, I nearly had a vein burst... I've no idea how the hell (pardon that pun) they're going to retain even vague cohesion of the planar lore that's come before 4e... The stuff in the Realms is merely a symptom of a larger problem I'm afraid.
Jarred_Garrison 11-02-07, 05:46 PM	Ok, here are some things that I was thinking will be good about the 4e realms: 1, Putting the FR back into the D+D cosmology. The changes to many core things like elves now being eladrin etc... means that FR now needs to be part of the core cosmology. It is also clear that there will be a core cosmology, was well with all of the changes to demons being almost elementals, arch demons and devils being almost gods, etc..... The FR was intended to be part of the greater D+D cosmology, and will be so again. Renovated Great Wheel here we come. 2, The fey wild or whatever they are calling the cotemporaneous fey realms. This has been in the FR from the start but was never really brought into focus. Now it will be and it has the potential to be really cool, just like the plane of shadow etc... etc..... Emphasizing the fey, will be fun I think. 3, Back to a big FR. The 1e and 2e maps describe a continent with approximately twice the area of the US and Canada combined, the 3e map shrinks everything into about 1/2 that size. Making the North bigger, returns it to its original feel back in the days of the old gray box. Waterdeep is 30 miles from the frontier. Yartar is a frontier town, and Silverymoon is an oasis in the back country. 4, This one people might disagree with, but I can't stand Mystra, oddly I like the chosen of Mystra though. Selune should be, and I hope will be the new goddess of good magic. Oghma will be the god of all knowledge including magical knowledge, and Shar well she is the goddess of evil magic. Azuth will be the deity of wizards, the arch-magister or whatever. Basically I see 4e as a way to undo all the damage that was done to D+D during the days of late 2e. TSR during 2e actually was run the way lots of people here are accusing WoTC of being run now, i.e. by people who don't understand the game they are selling and what does and does not make sense. 3e got hamstrung by all of the awfull decisions made during the late 2e days. Personally I am kind of looking forward to see what the 4e designers have come up with. 1: Um... No, actually not. I liked the FR´s cosmology (as far as deities go), and I like the Great Wheel, which is going the way of the dodo (I never bothered with the Great Tree), plus I don´t like the new core cosmology, so I can´t say I agree with you. 2: Again... No. I don´t give a damn for the fey. Never have, never will, probably. 3: If they do this, yes, I´ll like it. I am not keeping my hopes up, though. 4: I liked Mystra, so no, I don´t agree much. Also, I got the feeling that those deities won´t be getting much power, if any at all. Got a feeling I'm not going to be happy with the planar stuff. Once I read something about devils as fallen celestials, I nearly had a vein burst... I've no idea how the hell (pardon that pun) they're going to retain even vague cohesion of the planar lore that's come before 4e... The stuff in the Realms is merely a symptom of a larger problem I'm afraid. Yeah, I hate what little we´ve seen of the changes to Demons and Devils, mostly because what was there before was both cool (in my opinion) and not too clunky, so it worked for me. I´m not saying that what they´re making now is bad, but I certainly don´t like it, mostly because it send everything that was there before to hell (no pun intended), and it´s gonna be hard to homebrew it back to what it was (making a Demon Succubus and having Erinyies back as LE devils is gonna be a pain, and not the smallest of them all), so I envision a lot of work on my part come 4th edition. If people are going to tell me "so just disregard it, and keep playing 3.5 edition", or whatever... Sorry, but unlike with the fluff, the mechanic changes I´m seeing, I really like, so I plan to convert to 4th edition if I can, but I´m afraid I´ll have to throw all the fluff they´re making (most of FR´s too, for what I know) down the toilet, and flush it.
WhrenKehrsyn 11-02-07, 05:52 PM	2, The fey wild or whatever they are calling the cotemporaneous fey realms. This has been in the FR from the start but was never really brought into focus. Now it will be and it has the potential to be really cool, just like the plane of shadow etc... etc..... Emphasizing the fey, will be fun I think. I wouldnt really call it cool, but to each their own 3, Back to a big FR. The 1e and 2e maps describe a continent with approximately twice the area of the US and Canada combined, the 3e map shrinks everything into about 1/2 that size. Making the North bigger, returns it to its original feel back in the days of the old gray box. Waterdeep is 30 miles from the frontier. Yartar is a frontier town, and Silverymoon is an oasis in the back country. What Ive seen so far tells me that 4e FR made by the design team deciding what they do and dont like and making all their decisions that way. Basically something like, "We never made books about this area so fans never bought it. They must hate it so lets destroy it and make it an open area." Ive got the same impression regarding deities and NPCs. Im not very optimistic about this. 4, This one people might disagree with, but I can't stand Mystra, oddly I like the chosen of Mystra though. Selune should be, and I hope will be the new goddess of good magic. Oghma will be the god of all knowledge including magical knowledge, and Shar well she is the goddess of evil magic. Azuth will be the deity of wizards, the arch-magister or whatever. Thats youre opinion but I DO like Mystra and I wouldnt consider removing her a good thing about the 4e Realms. From what I understood Azuth is gone too so no he wont, and it was implied casters would worship Corellon so hes probably the new deity of magic.
18DELTA 11-02-07, 06:20 PM	They are coming!!!:eek:
johnkretzer 11-03-07, 04:20 AM	Ok, here are some things that I was thinking will be good about the 4e realms: 1, Putting the FR back into the D+D cosmology. The changes to many core things like elves now being eladrin etc... means that FR now needs to be part of the core cosmology. It is also clear that there will be a core cosmology, was well with all of the changes to demons being almost elementals, arch demons and devils being almost gods, etc..... The FR was intended to be part of the greater D+D cosmology, and will be so again. Renovated Great Wheel here we come. 2, The fey wild or whatever they are calling the cotemporaneous fey realms. This has been in the FR from the start but was never really brought into focus. Now it will be and it has the potential to be really cool, just like the plane of shadow etc... etc..... Emphasizing the fey, will be fun I think. 3, Back to a big FR. The 1e and 2e maps describe a continent with approximately twice the area of the US and Canada combined, the 3e map shrinks everything into about 1/2 that size. Making the North bigger, returns it to its original feel back in the days of the old gray box. Waterdeep is 30 miles from the frontier. Yartar is a frontier town, and Silverymoon is an oasis in the back country. 4, This one people might disagree with, but I can't stand Mystra, oddly I like the chosen of Mystra though. Selune should be, and I hope will be the new goddess of good magic. Oghma will be the god of all knowledge including magical knowledge, and Shar well she is the goddess of evil magic. Azuth will be the deity of wizards, the arch-magister or whatever. Basically I see 4e as a way to undo all the damage that was done to D+D during the days of late 2e. TSR during 2e actually was run the way lots of people here are accusing WoTC of being run now, i.e. by people who don't understand the game they are selling and what does and does not make sense. 3e got hamstrung by all of the awfull decisions made during the late 2e days. Personally I am kind of looking forward to see what the 4e designers have come up with. I am not going point by point disagree with you on all of your points(hey maybe point three will be good idea) but I in general disagree with them. But I respect your opinion and wish you that the Realms are what you want. Just wish the changes were done better.
MarkusTay63 11-03-07, 11:15 AM	More Fey lore is definately a good thing, but not at the expense of losing so much that has gone before. :(
Alleran 11-03-07, 11:39 AM	None of the points listed in the TC's post are necessarily good things. They are subjective at best.
Dexter_Blacktyde 11-03-07, 12:01 PM	In all these years in which WotC neglected the fey, a book about the fey lands seemed to rank among the top 5 most wanted on these boards, especially in recent years. I wonder how many of those who wished for it have waited for WotC to publish something like that - and how many have invented their own Faerie and have no further use for an official version that will contradict their own and that comes, well, 30 years too late. DB
MarkusTay63 11-03-07, 02:45 PM	I've even gone so far as to set-up it's cosmology... Fantasia (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/The-Plane-of-Dreams-54652539) ;)
Dexter_Blacktyde 11-03-07, 03:17 PM	I'd suggest "Faërie" instead of "Fäerie". The use of the letter e with an umlaut is already established in fantasy, and as far as I know, it's rarely used in actual languages. An a with an umlaut, on the other hand, is a widely used letter. To someone who sees it everyday, it just looks weird in a word like this - and is pronounced even weirder ;) DB P.S.: Lemmy Kilmister never got over the correct pronunciation of Motörhead, by the way *g*
Mr_Miscellany 11-03-07, 04:08 PM	Basically I see 4e as a way to undo all the damage that was done to D+D during the days of late 2e. TSR during 2e actually was run the way lots of people here are accusing WoTC of being run now, i.e. by people who don't understand the game they are selling and what does and does not make sense. 3e got hamstrung by all of the awfull decisions made during the late 2e days. It's a major relief to be able to read something from somebody knowledgeable of the true design history of the setting. Big, big relief. As to the rest: 1) I can live with FR being part of the 'core' cosmology so long as that cosmology (more specifically: The other primes that cosmology caters to)doesn't interfere with the Realms. However it already looks like WotC is backsliding by making Bane a core god. That, IMO and based off what little we know, is an exceptionally bad decision. The Realms were part of the Great Square (heh, heh, 1E joke) long ago, but the pantheon of the Realms was always geared to the Realms. Cross polinating the same deity(s) between active campaign worlds is not smart because it puts gamers minds out of the setting. 2) The Fey info looks awesome. 3E has been hinting strongly at this other reality for some time (see Magic of Faerûn and the various Monster Manuals), plus we have the Crinti and the northern reaches of Halruaa in the Realms...it's overdue, if you ask me. 3) I personally liked the 3E map changes, but I ***do*** want to see the Realms featured as darker, bigger and more dangerous. Maybe it's a symptom of me running a game with epic PCs that teleport all over the place....but I just feel like the 3E Realms are too small. 4) I've already said before I think WotC is going for overkill on Mystra and the Chosen, so I'll wait and see on that front. I do like your ideas of the diety consolidation though. Well, off to the Huskies game!
Dexter_Blacktyde 11-03-07, 04:18 PM	By the way, to those who maybe don't want to wait any longer for the official version I'd like to recommend Bastion Press' "Faeries" by Bryon Wischstadt. It's not as crunch-centric as most WotC products and has actually many pretty neat ideas. No, I don't get money for that, just felt like pointing out a good d20 product *g* DB
Charles Phipps 11-03-07, 05:16 PM	None of the points listed in the TC's post are necessarily good things. They are subjective at best. Obviously, he means what YOU think is a GOOD change and what he posts is what HE thinks is a good change.
Alleran 11-03-07, 10:34 PM	Obviously, he means what YOU think is a GOOD change and what he posts is what HE thinks is a good change. Except he refers to it as "fixing the damage" as if "damage" is a plain fact, when it really isn't. It is, as noted, subjective.
Charles Phipps 11-03-07, 11:23 PM	Except he refers to it as "fixing the damage" as if "damage" is a plain fact, when it really isn't. It is, as noted, subjective. In a matter of taste, subjectivity is fact. ;-)
MarkusTay63 11-03-07, 11:50 PM	I like the Fey stuff as well, and I don't mind a cosmology merge - in fact, I look forward to it. The funny thing is that the only thing I'm really taking exception to is the fact that the designers thought FR was broken to begin with, and now intend to 'fix' what THEY percieve is wrong. As Clobber said, the 2e maps were perfect, and if they hadn't of gone and messed with them, we wouldn't be having this problem now with 'no more room' for creativity (or, at least, what passes for creativity these days). Now they plan to bring back the 'empty areas' for 'us' (yeah... riiight). However, it was clearly stated that these regions would remain undeveloped unless an author needs them. That basically means we have about a week after the FRCG is released before they start filling up. :ahem: I'd suggest "Faërie" instead of "Fäerie". The use of the letter e with an umlaut is already established in fantasy, and as far as I know, it's rarely used in actual languages. An a with an umlaut, on the other hand, is a widely used letter. To someone who sees it everyday, it just looks weird in a word like this - and is pronounced even weirder You mean those little dots actually DO something? :blink: I just thought we used those kind of symbols, like in Faerûn or Murghôm, just for 'flavor'. They're not supposed to really mean anything... thats just silly. :P
Alleran 11-04-07, 01:36 AM	In a matter of taste, subjectivity is fact. Subjectivity is never fact. Matters of taste are always opinion. :)
Charles Phipps 11-04-07, 01:42 AM	Subjectivity is never fact. Matters of taste are always opinion. :) Wow man, way to miss the point.
Alleran 11-04-07, 07:58 AM	:rolleyes:
GothicDan 11-04-07, 08:12 AM	Children, children. Quit arguing! We're all hypocrites here!
Rauric 11-04-07, 08:18 AM	Welcome to the FR boards. When you request for positive opinions you will just usually get opinions. Usually it will be by folks who don't like any of your points. I will probably mix and match 4E stuff just like I did with 3E and 2E stuff. My buddy ran us through a campaign in 3E that used some Planescape stuff. It was good because I never really played FR/Planescape 2E and he was a good DM so it was fun. I continued with his concepts later on when I ran a game. In the end if you have an imagination and are not easily disturbed by change 4E will be ok for long time FR fans. :D
GothicDan 11-04-07, 08:49 AM	In the end if you have an imagination and are not easily disturbed by change 4E will be ok for long time FR fans. One can have an imagination and dislike anything. One can be neutral towards change in general and dislike specific changes. I hate the "change is better" crowd. Change, in fact, hastens the heat death of the universe.
MarkusTay63 11-04-07, 09:30 AM	Thats it! You figured it out Dan - the design team worships Entropy! :eek: Welcome to the FR boards. When you request for positive opinions you will just usually get opinions. Usually it will be by folks who don't like any of your points. And BTW, all of my posts in this thread, aside from this one perhaps, has been ON TOPIC. There are many points about the new edition I'm liking - I just don't think it will really be FR anymore - at least not the one we remember. It is my fondest hope that they are able to add in the points I like without removing anything, but we all know that that just isn't going to happen. But its all good - in MY Realms only the stuff I want will happen. ;)
Stigger 11-04-07, 10:23 AM	I don't think I'd mind so much if they came out and bluntly said "D&D is teetering on becoming very much in the mainstream and that we're gearing our settings to try to take advantage of that and push it over the edge into the wider market", which ultimately is what I think is going on here. Its getting close enough to taste for them from what I can tell, with the novels doing well, the computer game market success, and D&D in general picking up a bit. My perspective says they're trying to take it to the next step, which is a sound business decision, albeit a very risky one if it doesn't work out and they end up alienating their hardcore fan base. That's my take on it thus far at least. I'm not happy about it, I can understand it, and I'm resigned to it by now... but unless something rather drastic occurs in the apparent reasoning behind the new design decisions, I'm also pretty much done with published materials as things stand now.
LordInsane 11-04-07, 10:43 AM	You mean those little dots actually DO something? :blink: I just thought we used those kind of symbols, like in Faerûn or Murghôm, just for 'flavor'. They're not supposed to really mean anything... thats just silly. :P In Swedish, ä is a letter, who's closest counterpart in English is ae, altough as a single letter, of course. In Danish and Norwegian, they have the same letter but looking different, in this case an a and an e mashed together into one letter. As for the issue of the thread, I think 2 and 3 would be good, if it is done carefully and, well, not screwed up by the designers.
Rauric 11-04-07, 10:47 AM	"But its all good - in MY Realms only the stuff I want will happen. " Right on. This is what I meant. I also didn't name any names, just making comments about some individuals that are negative about 4E FR and post things even on Pro 4E threads. Look at most of the posts on this thread already. I want to see how they work in some of the new 4E stuff and I am curious what they will leave out. I will be able to use what I want just like Marcus. The book doesn't dictate to me what is in the Realms. The book is just a guideline to me.
johnkretzer 11-04-07, 11:14 AM	"But its all good - in MY Realms only the stuff I want will happen. " Right on. This is what I meant. I also didn't name any names, just making comments about some individuals that are negative about 4E FR and post things even on Pro 4E threads. Look at most of the posts on this thread already. I want to see how they work in some of the new 4E stuff and I am curious what they will leave out. I will be able to use what I want just like Marcus. The book doesn't dictate to me what is in the Realms. The book is just a guideline to me. You know it is funny the people who dislke these changes keep getting it the "It is too soon...you don't enough infomation...wait till it comes out" Whines.... Well isn't it too soon judge that it will be great also? I mean let look at the OPs orginal points 1) We don't know if this will be a good thing since we really don't know what the New D&D cosomolgy will be like. 2) We don't know if the fey will be well written. While more infomation could be great if it done badly (which by the way I have seen fey destroy games before when written more in depth) it will not be great. 3) We don't know what the 4th edition maps will look like or how long it will take them to fill up the areas with stuff. 4) Is pure speculation. We got no idea that it will be replaced by a better deity...though indications seem to be the Corrilion will be the god of magic...it just will be magic will be less important.
Rauric 11-04-07, 11:37 AM	It may be Correleon. I hope it is Selune though. Anyway the god of magic being the former Lord of the Elven Pantheon is different and interesting to me. The OP is voicing HIS POSITIVE OPINIONS about the 4E FR. That is what I got out of his post. I guess he wants his thread to be about the possible POSITIVE changes that may occur in the FR. Just like all the negative opinions on other threads the positive ones here are probably just speculation right?
Dexter_Blacktyde 11-04-07, 11:55 AM	You mean those little dots actually DO something? :blink: Yep, with these vowel mutations you actually get new vowels. Try to slowly pronounce "bear" in a distinctly Oxford English way. That's the Ä. Ö and Ü, however, are completely different from the "originals", the sounds don't exist in English. For those who can speak French, an Ö sounds like "deux" without the D, and an Ü sounds like the U in "la lune". DB
LordInsane 11-04-07, 01:49 PM	Yep, with these vowel mutations you actually get new vowels. Try to slowly pronounce "bear" in a distinctly Oxford English way. That's the Ä. Ö and Ü, however, are completely different from the "originals", the sounds don't exist in English. For those who can speak French, an Ö sounds like "deux" without the D, and an Ü sounds like the U in "la lune". DB Actually, the ae aether is very good fit for ä. Note that ä is derived from ae and ö is derived from oe, it's just so mashed together and changed so you hardly hear it in the ö case. As for ü, y is the closest counterpart, altough pronounciation once again makes things more complex.
Stigger 11-04-07, 07:24 PM	Looking around, I'm not sure the thread would have gotten past more than a few posts if we were just limiting it to positive comments... ;)
Charles Phipps 11-04-07, 07:46 PM	I am interested in the possibility of the D&D "Core Pantheon" being incorporated fully into the Forgotten Realms. Will Pelor become another name for Lathander? Will Bahamut have an increased role in the setting along with Corellon? Is Nerull another name for Kelemvor? All interesting questions.
Stigger 11-04-07, 07:54 PM	And, in my case at least, unwelcome if answered in the affirmative...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-04-07, 08:22 PM	Right on. This is what I meant. I also didn't name any names, just making comments about some individuals that are negative about 4E FR and post things even on Pro 4E threads. Look at most of the posts on this thread already. So what? People who are happy about the upcoming changes post in "negative" threads. My one other post on this topic wasn't even all that negative. I expressed partly tongue-in-cheek jadedness over the use of the word "cool" (is something is so great, tell us why, don't just say it's "cool" and leave it at that), and then asked where it was confirmed for a fact that the maps would be returning to their original size. There's enough speculation masquerading as fact around here. Nowhere was it confirmed that the FR would be returning to pre-3E maps, yet the OP wrongly reported that as a fact.
Rauric 11-05-07, 11:26 AM	Anyway getting back on topic, I AM curious where your idea for the "bigger" realms comes from. Is this because the designers mentoned Abeir-Toril in a few of there statements?
Lord Karsus 11-05-07, 11:55 AM	Will Bahamut have an increased role in the setting along with Corellon? -While Bahamut really hasn't had that much of a 'leading role' in the Realms cosmology, Corellon Larethian has.
Rauric 11-05-07, 12:19 PM	Bahamut and Tiamat may get more play in the 4E stuff I am thinking. Who do you think will be a god for LN and LE pallys? I would have said Helm at firrst but... well y'know.;) So possibly Bane, and Tiamat for the evil pallys who would take up the LN pallys then?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-05-07, 01:05 PM	You know what? I'll take a shot at this. The topic says 4E Realms, but I will mention that it's likely that some of the new rules (if not all of them) will improve on the older set of rules. It's unlikely that 4E rules will be better in every single way, but it's also unlikely that they'll be worse in every single way. As for 4E Realms, I'm hearing that the focus in the novels--at least, the ones immediately down the pipeline, will be about heroes of low to middling power and smaller, more personal stories. That is something I've been wanting for a long time, and if the WotC novel department actually does follow this guideline, then that is something I can approve of. So, there's a positive post for you all to chew on, for now.:)
Lord Karsus 11-05-07, 03:13 PM	Bahamut and Tiamat may get more play in the 4E stuff I am thinking. -They've certainly been creshendoing lately.
ClobberinTime 11-06-07, 12:27 PM	Glad to see people at least discused things some.......Let me just say this: The idea that anything in a fantasy game could be other than an opinion, I originally thought to be ludicrous, but then I thought about it some, and while changes to the realms cannot be either objectively 'good' or 'bad', certainly some things will or will not occur in upcoming publications, and that can be 'objective'. Anyways, Looks like Corellion is the god of magic in core, which makes it likely he will be the god of magic in the FR. I guess overall I'm a glass is half-full kind of guy. I still see late 2e as the culprit for all of the messiness in the game. Trust me those changes were marketed to children, not adults. 4e is an opportunity, not that the designers will take it as such. These guys seem to be a pretty narrow little self-indulgent clique with all of the delusions of grandeur that that entails. As such they consider D+D to be their playground and not ours. Obviously I don't know what is going to happen, but this list is sort of my wish list. And yes I changed my mind it is objectively good in the platonic sense, :)
GothicDan 11-06-07, 02:14 PM	-They've certainly been creshendoing lately. Also, crescendoing.
Lord Karsus 11-06-07, 04:18 PM	Anyways, Looks like Corellion is the god of magic in core, which makes it likely he will be the god of magic in the FR. -That, I don't like. Corellon Larethian has never been an...'actual' deity of magic. He really just represents Elven High Magic, which does not make him a very good candidate for taking the mantle of THE (assuming there will only be 1 deity of magic in the "new world") deity of magic. It's like leaving a specialist in charge of everything. Also, crescendoing. -More creshendoing, really.
Charles Phipps 11-06-07, 04:44 PM	Actually, I tend to view Corellon as the person whom most elves pray to regarding issues of magic. Amongst elves he's THE god of magic, not Mystra. Same with Mulhorandi and evil magic with Set.
MarkusTay63 11-06-07, 07:02 PM	I had to look it up, I thought Isis was the Mulan Deity of Magic, but it turns out she is only the goddess of good magic. So if you use "good" magic to murder someone, or use "evil" magic to cure someone, then doesn't that mean the whole alignment system is a little out of whack? :rolleyes: Since 'good' and 'evil' is based on a belief system, and many belief systems are tyrannical in their doctrine, then their really isn't any such thing as 'white' magic and 'black' magic. It's really all a matter of intent, eh? ;) But thats an argument for another thread... perhaps even another forum entirely. This 'hybrid system' of magic sounds intriguing. I have used several different spell-point systems, including official ones, but nothing ever seemed a perfect fit into D&D. I dislike the Vancian system immensly, yet years of play have made it one of the most perfectly balanced systems. It will be very intersting to see what they come up with. A mage that isn't a waste of oxgen at 1st level, or one that isn't a god at 30th will be a welcome change, IMHO. I'd like to see a way of balancing the exponential growth of magical might without the overly simplistic 'Mana' system to fall back on.
Charles Phipps 11-06-07, 07:20 PM	So if you use "good" magic to murder someone, or use "evil" magic to cure someone, then doesn't that mean the whole alignment system is a little out of whack? When in a Pantheistic System, your typical Wizard actually isn't really going to have Patron Deities. Your typical wizard is going to pray to Isis whenever he wants to make Crops Grow with a Rainstorm or banish a Demon, Pray to Thoth when he wants to decipher some Runes with some magical deciphering spell, and Pray to Set when he wants to knock off Friar John. Of course, there's nothing innately good or evil about healing or murder. Evil Clerics heal so they can have their allies kill more while Good Clerics blast legions of undead. Since 'good' and 'evil' is based on a belief system, and many belief systems are tyrannical in their doctrine, then their really isn't any such thing as 'white' magic and 'black' magic. I dunno, there's fairly explicitly evil spells. In my games, Animation of Dead is explicitly done by summoning the souls out of the afterlives to their bones. It's one of the most evil and violating spells imaginable even if its to make a bunch of walking bones. Likewise, I do tend to think of healing as White Magic despite the fact that evil people can use it. That doesn't mean that evil people don't have use for it though. It's just something Isis has dominion over.
Lord Karsus 11-06-07, 07:58 PM	Actually, I tend to view Corellon as the person whom most elves pray to regarding issues of magic. Amongst elves he's THE god of magic, not Mystra. Same with Mulhorandi and evil magic with Set. -No- well, in the case of the Elves, anyway. Mystra is widely known and preyed to by the Elves of Faerûn. -And, that still doesn't change the fact that, regardless of biased or non-biased beliefs based on what the people of Faerûn think, we know that Corellon Larethian isn't an "overall" Magic deity, as he is specifically concerned about "Elven Magic".
Suin Bahhar 11-06-07, 08:00 PM	I have really high hopes for the new magic tradition system in the realms. Schools of different philosophical approaches to magic to enrich the mysteries or crypticness of spellcasting. The way organisations transition will give ample opportunities for giving more insight into their inner workings. I hope the clergies will see more coöperation and more detailed fleshing out of ranks and protocol. I have high hopes for the way Ed will interpret the changes for us and the normal folk of the realms.
Charles Phipps 11-06-07, 08:24 PM	-No- well, in the case of the Elves, anyway. Mystra is widely known and preyed to by the Elves of Faerûn. Mystra is given great veneration but only Miekkli and Sharess are also part of the Elven Pantheon.
Dark Wizard 11-06-07, 09:39 PM	WotC's decision has unfortunately let us know virtually nothing about what the new 4E Realms will contain, but a handful of things it will not contain. Indeed the list of things the Realms will do right is a very fuzzy 'what if' at this point. Hopefully when it does come around it will reveal more good changes than bad changes (for everyones taste). Why aim for a slim majority when you can have a large majority for seemingly a little more effort.
MarkusTay63 11-06-07, 10:19 PM	The only thing they have told us about what it WILL contain is that these new things will be 'cool'. Which, as so many have already pointed out, is entirely subjective. -And, that still doesn't change the fact that, regardless of biased or non-biased beliefs based on what the people of Faerûn think, we know that Corellon Larethian isn't an "overall" Magic deity, as he is specifically concerned about "Elven Magic".So they pray to him when baking cookies, eh? ;)
Dark Wizard 11-06-07, 10:41 PM	No, that's Keebler (Lord of the Mystic Oven-Tree, Maker of Mid-range Priced Mass Produced Snack Foods) elven demigod of baked goods and elf-gnome hybrids. He and his divine servants are venerated equally by gnomes and elves. His eternal enemy is the being known only as the Cookie Monster ancient rampaging evil from the realm of Sesamea on the world of Pebeese. Beware of the illusionary cookies.:cookie: They only exist in your head.
MarkusTay63 11-06-07, 10:45 PM	His eternal enemy is the being known only as the Cookie Monster ancient rampaging evil from the realm of Sesamea on the world of Pebeese.I like Oscar, the Quogoth/Otyugh crossbreed. :D
Dark Wizard 11-06-07, 10:55 PM	Does that mean Big Bird is a surviving Aeree and Snuffleuphagus is a Holyphant or maybe just a quadruped Loxo?
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 01:01 AM	Things that the 4E Realms will do right 1. Destroy the Mulhorandi I hope that the replacement will be a Set worshipping Yuan-Ti nation, since that's what Ed Greenwood initially envisioned for the nation. However, it's really suspension of disbelief breaking as is and it'll be good to see it replaced. 2. Keep Elminster He's the Merlin of the setting and the Grand Knowledge Pooh-Bah of the Realms. He's a figure that we all should use more often in my games. Frankly, they need to somehow bring back Khelben and kill Tsarra. 3. Keep Drizzt *CLANG* *CLANG* *CLANG* *CLANG* *CLANG* *Brood* *CLANG* *CLANG* *CLANG* *CLANG* *CLANG* 4. Increased Prominence to the Nine Hells and Abyss They were really just tacked on last time we saw a game for that. 5. Restoration of Level Parity to the Realms The fact that player characters are expected to be able to hit 30th level means that, ironically, the Chosen are no longer ridiculously overpowered for the setting. Elminster being a 29th level character is now the equivalent of a 19th level Caster. Awesomely powerful? Yes, but no longer ridiculously so. 6. A Restored Netheril I'm intrigued by this notion. If the Deserts of Anauroch aren't entirely gotten rid of so I can still do my Desert Adventures, then I'll happily see a new Magical Empire arise from the ashes. Plus, it moves the Shade from being the only Netherese game in town. Still, it worries me that Haruula will be redundant. 7. The story aftermath I've played 14 sessions since I got my Grand History of the Realms. Mystra's death and Helm's death has provided a vast amount of interesting ideas and concepts for the games. If nothing else, shaking things up has done me a great service for getting me involved again. 8. The Possibility of a Cadderly Death Book There's implications he's going to die and I'd like to see one last hurrah for one of R.A. Salvatore's greatest creations. 9. Increased Prominence for Siamorphe It's interesting she's mentioned in the book, which implies she might well be one of the New Gods. That would imply a much larger role for the Goddess of Nobility. 10. Aboleths I just want to know HOW they'd have an Empire.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-07-07, 09:34 AM	[5. Restoration of Level Parity to the Realms The fact that player characters are expected to be able to hit 30th level means that, ironically, the Chosen are no longer ridiculously overpowered for the setting. Elminster being a 29th level character is now the equivalent of a 19th level Caster. Awesomely powerful? Yes, but no longer ridiculously so. Elminster's power level might just be adjusted accordingly (or not, if for some reason WotC wants him depowered).
Rauric 11-07-07, 10:24 AM	1. Destroy the Mulhorandi I hope that the replacement will be a Set worshipping Yuan-Ti nation, since that's what Ed Greenwood initially envisioned for the nation. However, it's really suspension of disbelief breaking as is and it'll be good to see it replaced. I already did this in my Realms for the most part. I have snake cults popping up all over Faerun recently teaching people of the "power within themselves". I basically took the idea from the first Conan film. Mulhorandi just seem to need to be taken over by Set. ;)
Asgetrion 11-07-07, 10:34 AM	-No- well, in the case of the Elves, anyway. Mystra is widely known and preyed to by the Elves of Faerûn. -And, that still doesn't change the fact that, regardless of biased or non-biased beliefs based on what the people of Faerûn think, we know that Corellon Larethian isn't an "overall" Magic deity, as he is specifically concerned about "Elven Magic". Hmmm... I think 'Elminster in Myth Drannor' shows how living elves think of Mystra being an "upstart human goddess inferior to Corellon", but the book also shows Watchnorns paying homage to her, which might indicate that more powerful elven spellcasters at least respect her as the Guardian of the Weave. That said I think that most elven spellcaster would venetrate Corellon, while some may be more "enlightened" and worship Mystra. Anyway, that's how I see it from a very "generalized" point of view.
Alediran 11-07-07, 10:48 AM	Snake Cults? HOW Cliché! Seriously, there are better things to have than another Snake Cult..
Lord Karsus 11-07-07, 11:21 AM	Mystra is given great veneration but only Miekkli and Sharess are also part of the Elven Pantheon. -I didn't say she was a part of the Seldarine. I said she was widely venerated by Elves.
Lord Karsus 11-07-07, 11:31 AM	Things that the 4E Realms will do right 1. Destroy the Mulhorandi I hope that the replacement will be a Set worshipping Yuan-Ti nation, since that's what Ed Greenwood initially envisioned for the nation. However, it's really suspension of disbelief breaking as is and it'll be good to see it replaced. -Interesting. Oddly enough, I have something similar in my own campaign setting. Must be cryptoamnesia or something. -Anyway, since Mulhorand (in it's canon incarnation) is involved in a "classic" struggle (versus Unther), and AGHotR has progressed this storyline a bit, I doubt anything catastrophic will befall Mulhorand. However, now that they no longer have Unther to worry about (for now), could a Yuan-Ti incursion be far behind? Frankly, they need to somehow bring back Khelben and kill Tsarra. -Oh, let Khelben rest in peace. He's certainly earned it. A Restored Netheril I'm intrigued by this notion. If the Deserts of Anauroch aren't entirely gotten rid of so I can still do my Desert Adventures, then I'll happily see a new Magical Empire arise from the ashes. Plus, it moves the Shade from being the only Netherese game in town. -I was under the assumption that this 'new Netheril' was the 'Empire of Shade'. Recent events concerning the Shadovar certainly make it seem that way, at least to me.
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 12:05 PM	Snake Cults? HOW Cliché! Seriously, there are better things to have than another Snake Cult.. *fearful merchant voice* They were just another Snake Cult at first, now their cursed towers are everywhere. I know nothing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-07-07, 12:17 PM	Snake Cults? HOW Cliché! Seriously, there are better things to have than another Snake Cult.. Like death cults, or shadow cults.;) :P
MarkusTay63 11-07-07, 12:24 PM	I'm more of an "Evil Monkey cult" person myself. :P
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 12:37 PM	-Anyway, since Mulhorand (in it's canon incarnation) is involved in a "classic" struggle (versus Unther), and AGHotR has progressed this storyline a bit, I doubt anything catastrophic will befall Mulhorand. However, now that they no longer have Unther to worry about (for now), could a Yuan-Ti incursion be far behind? Grand History of the Realms did something that sort of got overlooked. That struggle is over and "Unther" as it used to be, no longer exists. There's only Mulhorandi. It's pretty much like the S-Empire in Amn or Arabel in Cormyr, a rebellious province at best. So I think they could well do something drastic to Mulhorandi.
Rauric 11-07-07, 12:51 PM	Set as a bigger baddie with his odd snake cult that teaches people they have to be strong and take what they want or need would be cool with me. Again since I have already done this in my game it would just mesh nicely.
MarkusTay63 11-07-07, 12:53 PM	However, there is a new dynamic developing there - Mulhorand's most ancient enemy, the Imaskari, are returning to the surface. We now know from the GHotR that the Shou were originally part of the Imaskar Empire (Anok-Imaskar, or the provinces of Khati and Katakoro). Then in 1375 DR ambassadors are secretly sent to Mulhorand from T'u Lung, Shou Lung's enemy to the south. So the Imaskari are returning and have connections to Shou Lung, and the Mulhorandi who HATE them are now making deals with Shou Lung's enemies. There's a party brewin' in the East. :dancin: :D
Rauric 11-07-07, 01:49 PM	However, there is a new dynamic developing there - Mulhorand's most ancient enemy, the Imaskari, are returning to the surface. We now know from the GHotR that the Shou were originally part of the Imaskar Empire (Anok-Imaskar, or the provinces of Khati and Katakoro). Then in 1375 DR ambassadors are secretly sent to Mulhorand from T'u Lung, Shou Lung's enemy to the south. So the Imaskari are returning and have connections to Shou Lung, and the Mulhorandi who HATE them are now making deals with Shou Lung's enemies. There's a party brewin' in the East. :dancin: :D This does sound interesting. Especially if there are snake cults involved!;)
GothicDan 11-07-07, 02:01 PM	I made a race of Set-worshiping Yuan-Ti and Nagas in an Egyptian-esque setting too - but I used Ed's bits for inspiration. I just adore the idea. I still love my knightly Centaur nation, and my barbaric Wemic one.
Stigger 11-07-07, 04:28 PM	Interestingly I always associated snakes with healing and longevity... can't say I ever thought of them as evil. Probably why I can't stand the whole 'evil serpent' thing...
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 04:46 PM	Interestingly I always associated snakes with healing and longevity... can't say I ever thought of them as evil. Probably why I can't stand the whole 'evil serpent' thing... Well there's plenty of cultural traditions for both sides. Frankly, "Hyena" and "Crocodile" Cults are taking over Mulhorandi! just don't quite the same panache as Snake cults.
Stigger 11-07-07, 05:00 PM	I'd be a lot more worried about crocodiles and hyenas to be honest, they are far more aggressive on average than most snakes out there.. hyenas in particular.
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 05:10 PM	I know, they're just really stupid sounding cults.
Stigger 11-07-07, 06:25 PM	I dunno about that... a hyena cult could be really ugly if done correctly. Unless its based around brown hyenas... those are about the only one that aren't completely fugly, kinda cute actually, for a hyena. Just picture some wyrm-tainted ajaba pack and their kinfolk, and the fun you could have with it and run from there. The Crocodile cult could be kinda scary too. Just think of the Hem-ka Sobk from M:tA's Book of Crafts given a nephandic spin, and there you're halfway done.
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 06:54 PM	True, I could definitely do that with Set. However, I guess I think Serpents make for better villainous animals because there's something majestic about them. They are creatures commonly associated with longevity and wisdom in addition to corruption.
BadCatMan 11-07-07, 07:22 PM	I think scorpions work better with Set, and they aren't so cliched as spiders or snakes. They suit the idea of the self-serving survivor, innocuous but dangerous, with a sting in the tail and full of deceit. I don't have any problems with Mulhorand myself (what's the big problem with a non-Euro empire that isn't evil?) but if anything had to happen there with Set, I'd prefer it was scorpions. Plus they're cooler.
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 07:44 PM	I dunno, my players would probably laugh at me. They'd say "Set is a SNAKE god." They'd feel the experience was being missed out upon if I changed his totem. Besides, I loathe the Scorpion God for the Drow in Eberron. It just seems such a cheap and tawdy change for change's sake. Why alter a classic?
johnkretzer 11-07-07, 08:52 PM	Why alter a classic? That is a question that should be asked of the design team...
Stigger 11-07-07, 09:15 PM	*Snicker* Not sure I'd associate any of those cults with Set unless they had something to do with Jackals or Snakes. Doesn't mean some other deity can't be using them to try to infiltrate into Mulhorandi lands though...
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 09:19 PM	That is a question that should be asked of the design team... The Realms are about as classic as Madonna in terms of altering appearances.
Stigger 11-07-07, 09:24 PM	Well, she has passed the 20 year mark, so in modern culture that is pretty classic... though to be fair she is one of the best when it comes to reinventing herself and her image. Though I'm not sure how much the Realms has really altered itself beyond a couple of spectacularly packaged changes that really didn't amount to much alteration at all when it came down to it.
Dark Wizard 11-07-07, 09:40 PM	So what is the new Realms approach most like: - Singer changing her looks every few years. - Rock band with a new member replacing an old one. - Boy band that continually replaces older members with a younger ones when they hit puberty.
MarkusTay63 11-08-07, 04:18 PM	-Boy band Michael Jackson that continually replaces older members with a younger ones when they hit puberty.Corrected. ;) I still love my knightly Centaur nation, and my barbaric Wemic one.I have a Knightly Centaur Kingdom!!! I put it where Thay used to be - Truly Ugly Low-Res piece of my campaign Map. (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Sylvan-Thay-69325401) I wasn't ever planning on showing any of that abomination - I remember how good I thought it was when I first did it. After I got some skills I went to the High-Res version of the Map. I still use that one for my home-campaign though. Thay's down in the Shaar now. :D The Kingdom is run by Chivalric Centaurs, the outlying areas have the typical Sylvan variety, and in the deepest, darkest recesses of the primordial forest a strange race of 'cave-centaurs' dwells - VERY primitive, and they look like huge Centaurs with Orcish/Neaderthalish features (and very hairy).
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 07:23 PM	Corrected. ;) -What goes on in that mind, I sometimes have to wonder...
Suin Bahhar 11-08-07, 07:32 PM	I hope they invest a lot of money in the artistic direction of FR. Do a nice picture on the new cosmology (and Myrmeen Lhal please). Make some quality foldout maps. The works.
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 07:36 PM	I hope they invest a lot of money in the artistic direction of FR. Do a nice picture on the new cosmology (and Myrmeen Lhal please). Make some quality foldout maps. The works. -Which would you rather see, if the limited budget could either give you some good, quality artwork, or some good, quality lore (as was the case with AGHotR)?
Stigger 11-08-07, 07:43 PM	No brainer... Artwork please. Especially if it's shiny...
MarkusTay63 11-09-07, 12:46 AM	I'm sure the new edition will have dozens of new pics... of Drizzt. :bored: He keeps getting younger with each edition, so I'm hopig he's just an infant this time around so my players can give him some "Shaken Baby Syndrome". :P You know what would be great? If he went insane, and he has Cattie Brie propped-up at a dinner table in a cave somewhere, and he goes there and talks to her... even though she's been dead a century. :looloo:
Stigger 11-09-07, 06:23 AM	Now that... is a truly disturbing thought... thanks Markus, I really needed that one... :blink:
Suin Bahhar 11-09-07, 10:15 AM	-Which would you rather see, if the limited budget could either give you some good, quality artwork, or some good, quality lore (as was the case with AGHotR)?I'd rather see good lore ofcourse. But something can be said for having the FRCS be easy on the eyes: nice layout, glossy paper, shiny pictures and big maps. They too convey much of the settings feeling IMO. For example I'd love to see panoramic landscape views of nice vistas in the realms for each chapter on regions. And harper chicks please. ^^
Bluenose 11-09-07, 10:56 AM	I'd rather see good lore ofcourse. But something can be said for having the FRCS be easy on the eyes: nice layout, glossy paper, shiny pictures and big maps. They too convey much of the settings feeling IMO. For example I'd love to see panoramic landscape views of nice vistas in the realms for each chapter on regions. And harper chicks please. ^^ Pictures showing what a town looks like, what style of buildings exist, whether there's a particular arrangement. What are rural buildings like, country inns, a 'typical' small shrine if there is such a thing. Costumes worn by ordinary people, the sort that low level adventurers might interact with, including rural farmers, travelling merchants, successful craftsmen, etc. You could probably do it with a few double-page spreads: A street scene from Sembia. A village fair in Corymr. A town market from Amn. A wizard's manse from Halruaa. Pharaoh's palace in Mulhorand. A slave auction in Thay. Just some ideas. But certainly I'd like something along these lines far more than lists of spells and magic items.