Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 03-29-08, 04:23 AM	Okay, I've never been a Grayhawk fan. I've heard of LGW but never actually took the time to look into it, and beyond a handful of deities that I find interesting, the setting never really appealed to me. I doubt I'll ever play in a Living Forgotten Realms game (or 4E FR for that matter), but the idea does intrigue me to some extent. Yet, at the same time I do not understand how things will be managed. I just found out today that my region got Aglarond, and that the Simbul is... "missing". All right, that sounds great. So let's say I decide to hop into a Living FR Game, and everyone in my group decides that we're either going to be Sons of Hoar (if it is still around) or are going to create a similar group (if it is not still around). We're going to make a power play in Aglarond. We hate Wizards, we hate Thay, we are also raging racists who hate Elves, who see the CCC as "weak" because they allow non-Humans in their group. So yeah, anyway, the DM decides that everyone in the group starts out at level 30. Being level 30 in 4E D&D means, basically, you can at least hold your own against a god. So, here we are at level 30, killing all deities in Aglarond, burning Wizards alive at the stake left and right, hanging Elves and their half-breed spawn from trees, and dragging their corpses behind our horses while wearing our little bed sheets like the KK... errr... CCC... then we take the Throne of Aglarond and declare war upon Thay. Alright - where in there, if anything, becomes cannon? I would say that this would differ from the "vision" (tm) of WotC considerably. I've noticed a few posts by Markus who stated that LFR is just a set of pre-fabricated adventure modules. They are sent out and everyone who plays in them is expected to play the module exactly as designed - no deviation allowed. In other words, WotC sanctioned railroading, and their attempt to control what is turned into cannon and what is not. If the above is the case... then what point is there to the LFR at all? If that is not the case, then how are things as I outlined at the beginning of my post avoided?
Lord Karsus 03-29-08, 01:00 PM	-As I understand it, WotC sends official Living Forgotten Realms-sanctioned DMs official Living Forgotten Realms-sanctioned adventures/modules. The game is then played, and the results, and how things happened, are sent back, and eventually make their way to WotC. Whoever it is in WotC then goes through the different campaigns, and eventually choses which take on the events actually happened, and are canon. -So, as MT has said, only one group actually is influencing canon. Others, then, might believe they are as well, since everyone plays the same adventures. -This is all based on what little I know, and what I've heard.
Stigger 03-29-08, 02:02 PM	Sounds like the understanding of it I have... though how they decide what actually happened is really unclear to me. Not my cup of tea any way it goes though...
gomeztoo 03-29-08, 02:22 PM	I will attempt to explain a bit how this will go. The following system is how it went in Living Greyhawk. I will try to make a Realms analogy, for (I hope) clarity. Basically, you create a PC for the Living Forgotten Realms campaign, using a few, predefined character creation rules. These typically include a basic system to generate stats (likely point-buying), and starting your PC at 1st level. Likely, you pick a region where your PC lives, and hopefully, you create your PC so it fits the region. Then, you start play, by having the DM download a scenario that is made available through the campaign. There are various scenarios, written by volunteers, set in various regions and following various plotlines. These will start very small and local at first. Beset the bandits that plague the roads, solve a murder, clear a basement. You know the type. Through play, you gain xp and gold and favors and whatnot, and you level. As play progresses and your level increases, higher level scenarios become available for play with your PC. You can then go on the more complicated missions, level more, get the bigger missions, etc. Generally, the scenarios are written for play over 4-5 hours (more if you take your time and add some extra roleplay). That means they are focused and generally deal with only one problem at the time, though they may be part of bigger plots which are influenced by the outcome. How (or if) one solves the problem is ultimately up to the PCs. There may be choices in a scenario that could affect the future development in the region. Kill the bandit or deliver him to the guards? Who gets the shiny baubles? Do you engage the kobolds at all? Etc. What choice you make, or whether you choose at all, is reported back to the campaign administration, typically the writing director (for the Dalelands, that would be me). Based on feedback (typically what comes in in the first few months), we can determine how the scenario ran - on average. We migth occasionally remember brilliant (or dumb) ideas and incorporate that in region's canon, but in general we will go with the majority. The accumulated results then become canon, and can then influence future scenarios. So if most peole let the bandit go, he can return to figth another day. If most people killed him, he stays ten feet under, with a big rock on top to boot. Occasionally, we use simpler means. Instead of directly affecting the future, you may earn a favor with someone (or an enemity). Such favors or disfavors can then affect games in the future (independent on how other parties faired). So, potentially, depending on your choices, your actions may affect canon. In reality, it is not likely to be big. You won't take over the Dalelands, or kill Elminster, for instance. First, we are not likely to write 'taking-over-Shadowdale-and-killing-Elminster' type of adventures, and if you happen to do so with your DM, we'll ignore it (though you can always pretend). Second, even if we did and not get fired, R&D, not the writing Directors, has the final say on what we can actually change in canon. This is a bit different from Greyhawk, where we had more leeway (and where kings dropped like flies at some point). Though we don't need to make such drastic changes to make the campaign come alive. The forwarding of plots, NPCs that develop into aquintences and then friends (or hated foes), and braving perils with fellow adventurers time and again also make this campaign living. In the end, the LFR campiagn is simply a way to play in the Realms, fight evil, and grow into a hero. I expect it won't be for everyone, but if you give it a try, we will sure make it as much fun as possible. And who knows, some day, you migth write something for it yourself! Pierre van Rooden LFR Dalelands Writing Director
MarkusTay63 03-30-08, 05:00 PM	So basically, they write the modules with a specific outcome in mind (which will happen in canon either way), and when they print that outcome - "A group of heroes did this, this, and this" - in an official source, everyone gets to pretend they did that. And most official games are held at 'Cons' - how appropriate. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-30-08, 07:55 PM	And most official games are held at 'Cons' - how appropriate. ;) :rimshot: -That said, I'm not 100% sure about that. Gomeztoo didn't mention that they are only run at conventions, and, from what I already know, I didn't get that impression. I don't think that's necessarily true, however. Am I right, G2?
MarkusTay63 03-31-08, 12:11 AM	Well, I used the word 'official' a little to arbitrarily there. All living games are 'official' in as much that the exp you get counts toward your character, even if you are playing 'outside' of an official module (I'm pretty sure thats how it works, because I remember reading about one DM who dragged his own character along with the party, just so he could give himself gobs of exp at the end - a big no-no in the RPGA rules). Anyhow, what I meant by 'official' in my above statement was 'canon changing' events. When they want something 'big' to happen IG, the hold it at a con, and some lucky group gets picked as the 'canon version'. Like I said, it all very well-orchestrated, and everyone pretty much sticks to the script. So yeah, 'living' DMs hold games in and out of cons, but I'm pretty sure only the con ones change things (but I could be wrong). The thing that leads me to believe this is that many of the old adventures specifically say they were first played 'tournament' at a convention somewhere. I think it is pretty much impossible for something to occur that WotC does not want to happen, because they get to choose which 'canon' they will use as the official one. So nobody's going to be slaying Elminster or Drizzt anytime soon... more's the pity. :devil:
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 12:34 AM	So yeah, 'living' DMs hold games in and out of cons, but I'm pretty sure only the con ones change things (but I could be wrong). The thing that leads me to believe this is that many of the old adventures specifically say they were first played 'tournament' at a convention somewhere. -Well, like you just said yourself: I think it is pretty much impossible for something to occur that WotC does not want to happen, because they get to choose which 'canon' they will use as the official one.
gomeztoo 03-31-08, 01:45 AM	So basically, they write the modules with a specific outcome in mind We (or I, at least), will design modules to have a varioety of choices that we find of interest, but I do not expect these to be big. For starters, I will expect that in most cases, the heroes prevail. We won't (let) write scenarios expecting a TPK. Though challenging, scenarios should be 'winnable'. Most ways to affect future events are therefor likely of a more political nature (as in who you side with in a conflict, who you choose to work for and trust, or whether or not information is relaid). A goode xample is a scenraio I wrote a few years ago. In this scenario, the PCs had to enter a swamp and destroy a monster. Did they win? Well, doh! Hardly a surprising outcome. However, the PCs discovered some painful background information on the creature, and had the choice to either tell their superiors or not - the info being so sensitive that it could potentially break an alreadyt fragile alliance in a country at war. We very carefully monitored who relaid the information, and who didn't. In the end, and to our surprise, a vast majority kept the info secret. Had they not, the Sunndi war migth have turned out quite bad. So, no, we do not expect a specific outrcome, other than that an average party will succeed in a mission in a way that is satisfying to the players. And most official games are held at 'Cons' - how appropriate. ;) Most games are actualy held - and expected to be held - as home games. Cons are the minority - but due to the nature of these events still popular. What counts as 'official' feedbback, and which will be taken into account when determing outcome, is any feedback people bother to send me within a span of several months after premiere (Homegame, Con, onine event, or whatever). Note: not everyone sends in feedback. if you don't send yours in, you don't affect events. But that is not something that I can affect much - I am not telepathic (yet). Gomez
MarkusTay63 03-31-08, 02:25 AM	Well, thank you for the information. I knew that there were home games and 'con' games, but I wasn't sure about the exact relevancy of each. So... what, all of you regional guys then forward your stuff to the 'head office', and someone goes through it and decides what to use? Also, some modules are 'official' - how does that work, con-only, or do people run them at home and 'phone-in' the results? Also, do modules you yourself make become official? I seen some stuff on the Sarbreenar site before it was taken down, and they were selling modules for their clubs. How does that work? I'm just curious, I always wondered how all of that stuff gets worked out.
gomeztoo 03-31-08, 10:00 AM	I can't comment too much on the 'official' status of RPGA scenarios, partly because it is not yet fleshed out, and partly because I feel I shouldn't comment too much on official processes (to avoid foot-in-mouth-syndrom). I expect however, that R&D will monitor closely what we do, and what we come up with. I expect that we (acting as delegates for our regions) will propose what events to 'canonize', and that R&D will need to approve on it (as they will on every plot/scenario we produce). So if, imo, table outcome warrants that bandit X got away in 'Get the MacGuffin', with the macguffin, and that he will re-appear in scenario 'Get the MacGuffin - Again!', then I can propose that outcome, and R&D will then determine whether that is fine with them. It is possible the process will work differently, mind, but this is what I expect will happen based on how LG went. As to 'official' - if you mean WotC published buy-in-the-store mods, I expect that we will have adaptation sheets that allow you to play those scenarios as part of the campaign (that is, play it and as a result get campaign documentation). I don't know if that will include any information gathering (I know that in LG that did not happen to 'adapted' mods, but I have no idea what type of mods will be published for FR). Gomez
MarkusTay63 03-31-08, 06:07 PM	Cool, thanks again for the info. So it appears that WotC just 'milks' you guys as a free rsource for ideas. Pretty clever of them. I used to play HOMM, and they had a contest with HOMM4, wherein you got to design your own map/scenario for the game. The 20 winners would get free copies of the next expansion. hundreds of people, including myself, sent in really great stuff. Unfortunetly, mine went 'way over budget' (the file size was HUGE, and the wanted 'less robust' scenarios), so it wasn't considered. :( Anyway, in the end, the expansion came out about 6 months later... and all it included were the 20 map/scenarios they got for FREE! :eek: Also, part of the deal was that you could NOT use your map anywhere else, and it became their property once submitted. The only other thing on the disk were two (yes, just TWO!) new monsters. Boy, did we all feel like a bunch of used idiots. Won't be buying anything from that company again. BTW, good luck with the 'Living' Campaigns - I hope you develop tons of material for them. ;)