Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 01:32 AM	Yeah I know this is might seem like another anti-New Realms thread, but my intention is not so. View it more as seeking infomation to correct a feeling that is bugging me. It seems to me that one of things happening in the this New Realms is a depowering of female characters if not the outright killing them. 1) Mystra being killed by a obessive man( re:Cyric ) who as been stalking her and tormenting her. When she tried to fight back she was told no. I mean my youngest sister had a bad relationship and was stalked by this guy till he seriously hurt her...so this one really strikes home for me. And she is being replaced by a male god. 2)Tymora role in the love triangle as a meek woman from the middle ages. And their seemingly refusal to promote to greater godhood though all the lore would suggest that she should be. Also Sune came out looking like a idiot. 3) The 7 Sisters are either going to be killed off or serverly weakened in the furure. While Elminster and Drizzt will be left on their own and powerful. 4) It seems when female characters die the die quietly with a whimper alot in the novels. I'll point out the death of Rinda. 5) Siamorph who I used to view as a strong female noble being reduced to a lesser noble of another god... 6) Shar who is the second most powerful goddess in the world and just as sneaky as Cyric still needed him to do something she has been trying to do since the start of time. 7)Eilistraee...well we will just wait to see what happens there. But the prologue from the Orc King really didn't seem hopeful. I mean I really don't think this is their goal as it seems that they are trying to attract more women gamers with the book "Confessions of a Sorcereress and the Astrid's Palor board...but their actions seem to tell a different story. They seem to be returning to a more classic fantasy where woman were just objects to be damsels in distress to be rescued by the male hero. This not only I think bad for the game but it also doesn't describe the Realms at all as the Realms always had equality between men and women. So can anybody show me anything about the New Realms where women there is a strong female character not acting incompetently?
msatran 11-30-07, 01:34 AM	I wish the Wizards boards used the Reputation feature.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 01:34 AM	I'll point out I don't mind darkness in my game...I just seeing it more directly being targeted at the women in the Realms.
Mula 11-30-07, 01:48 AM	Hey, don't overstretch yourself there, john.And she is being replaced by a male god.Whut? When...? 2)Tymora role in the love triangle as a meek woman from the middle ages. And their seemingly refusal to promote to greater godhood though all the lore would suggest that she should be. Also Sune came out looking like a idiot.Sune, idiot? What? She's gathering more power! 3) The 7 Sisters are either going to be killed off or serverly weakened in the furure. While Elminster and Drizzt will be left on their own and powerful.Well, old El and Drizzt are a whole lot more popular than the Sisters. I dunno, the cash cows just happen to be male.5) Siamorph who I used to view as a strong female noble being reduced to a lesser noble of another god...Isn't this happening to a lot of deities, male and female?6) Shar who is the second most powerful goddess in the world and just as sneaky as Cyric still needed him to do something she has been trying to do since the start of time.Oh come on...! You have got to be kidding me! Shar USED Cyric - he's the one who got punished! So can anybody show me anything about the New Realms where women there is a strong female character not acting incompetently?Sune and Shar. Sune is a total player, and so is Shar. Shar is like the Mastermind behind all the bad stuff happening in 4e Realms. And how about Lolth?
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:03 AM	Not just you John, I've been noticing the same thing myself. I'd go into it, but I just don't feel like getting depressed thinking about it too much.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 02:29 AM	Hey, don't overstretch yourself there, john. ? Whut? When...? Corellon Larethian will probably be getting the duties as the god of magic in the Realms as he has it in the core pantheon. Has just a strong defender of 4th edition do you even read the Design & Development articles? Sune, idiot? What? She's gathering more power! So what you are saying is that she set this up to gain power by backstabbing her friends? Is this a picture we want to paint of a good aligned woman that they are petty and backstabing power mongers? Also there is more to life then power. Also her portfolio is love...this set up is a very clossal error on her part. Well, old El and Drizzt are a whole lot more popular than the Sisters. I dunno, the cash cows just happen to be male. Popularity means little and is fleeting...also since they are trying to attract new people to the Realms current popularity means little to what popularity they might archieved. Isn't this happening to a lot of deities, male and female?Oh come on...! Sure...I am against it all for the most part...but find it very out of character for Siamorph and very out of character for the Realms to have the concept of Ladies in waiting. Remeber a Lady and a Lord are equal in Realms society...women are viewed more than just brood mares. You have got to be kidding me! Shar USED Cyric - he's the one who got punished! 1) Cyric punishment isn't going to stick. And we don't know if she is not going to be punished at all. 2) Shar completely and utterly failed in what she was trying to do. I mean her master plan was to cloak Cyric so he could do it...so why didn't she do this herself? She has the power, the stealth, and a million times the experience to do it and get away with it. Sune and Shar. Sune is a total player, and so is Shar. Shar is like the Mastermind behind all the bad stuff happening in 4e Realms. And how about Lolth? Sune is a very shallow goddess who view people only skin deep.(No offense Rhino) Atleast that is how she has been depicted and written. Ok while we don't know what will happen to Lolth and I can argue about Shar being a masterplaner, yet her plans can be countered by a 3 year old,...So what you are saying is powerful and competent females must be... 1) Evil 2)Backstabbing 3)Petty 4)Slutty 5)Shallow 6)Manipulative. Yup this will get women to come and play in the FR in droves. :rolleyes: Also I started this thread to see if there is anything out there to prove me wrong. You have failed to do so...anybody else out there?
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 02:40 AM	So can anybody show me anything about the New Realms where women there is a strong female character not acting incompetently? -The Simbul? (Presumably)
Fingoldfin 11-30-07, 02:49 AM	-The Simbul? (Presumably) I'll bet you a shinny new nickel that she's dead in 4e.:(
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:49 AM	Depends on how you interpret the 'Fans of the Seven Sisters' comment from a while back.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 02:51 AM	-The Simbul? (Presumably) Yes, but as a 7 Sister she is doomed to die or be lessened...in the New Realms. I actualy think she'll end up dead. 1)She was meant to be a check against the Red Wizards so they just don't conquror the Realms. With them killing themselves in a civil war that is no longer relevelant. 2) She is probably the most powerful good NPC in the Realms. 3)I think she is the least popular of the 7 sisters. I would think that Alustriel(of the 7 Sisters) has the best shot of remaining where she was in power...but I don't think Drizzt even mentioned her in the Prologue to the Orc King...though I will have to check again.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 02:58 AM	-Well, we'll see...
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 03:13 AM	Are you trying to build a sexist discrimanation class action suit, John? ;) Meh - in this day and age it might work. :rolleyes: Have any of you guys ever heard of the Gor series of novels? Those things wouldn't have even been published in this day and age (and there were twentysix of them!) I'm a little bit of a male chauvenist myself (hey, I was born in the old days, can't help it), but I try fight my upbringing whenever possible. However, when all my friends were reading those back in the 70's, I couldn't get past the jacket-cover. There's pulp, and then there's sleeze. :yuck: An entire Fantasy World with dozens of cultures, and each and every one of them enslaves their women and treats them as pets? The fact that that series was very popular once goes a long way to explain the spike in sex-related crimes in the late seventies and early eighties. :( Depends on how you interpret the 'Fans of the Seven Sisters' comment from a while back.There is only ONE interpretation of that - The seven sisters will NO LONGER be in the same condition they were in going into 4e. You can come up with a hundred scenarios if you want, but they all lead down the same path.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 03:38 AM	Are you trying to build a sexist discrimanation class action suit, John? ;) Meh - in this day and age it might work. :rolleyes: Well no. I agree it might work...but I couldn't look myself in the mirror anymore if I did.... No like I said this a honest attempt of asking people to prove this feeling I have wrong about the New Realms...mostly because it is directly counter to their stated goals for these changes...so I am confused here.
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:50 AM	My wife has a theory about it, but as I don't really want to get banned, I won't share it here. Suffice to say, its hardly complementary to many of the developers or designers of 4e.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 03:54 AM	I just figured Ed liked girls... and thats all I'm saying. ;) You know that the minute a designer reads this (and they will) they are going to have a panic attack and look back over what they've already done to see if it truly appears that they diid what we think they did. Can you imagine the phone-calls tomorrow? I'm sure it was one of those 'Freudian' accidents, but it's still gonna look pretty smelly if they deep-sixed ALL the female heavy-hitters. Even if they left that one Elf lass alone - she's Shoon and therefore male now! Man... could I have FUN with that. :devil: I want to be Shoon when I grow up. :P
Murmur Maelstrom 11-30-07, 04:00 AM	Yes, but as a 7 Sister she is doomed to die or be lessened...in the New Realms. I actualy think she'll end up dead. 1)She was meant to be a check against the Red Wizards so they just don't conquror the Realms. With them killing themselves in a civil war that is no longer relevelant. 2) She is probably the most powerful good NPC in the Realms. 3)I think she is the least popular of the 7 sisters. I would think that Alustriel(of the 7 Sisters) has the best shot of remaining where she was in power...but I don't think Drizzt even mentioned her in the Prologue to the Orc King...though I will have to check again. I agree that she will likely end up dead. They have already taken away my favorite two sisters (Sylune and Laeral *basically*).. So why not get rid of the rest?
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:04 AM	For now, my wife is so adamantly PO'd about 4e I'm not even allowed to discuss it around her... its gonna be a hard sell with her even if it is amazingly cool because of her view of the rampant sexism of it.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:08 AM	For now, my wife is so adamantly PO'd about 4e I'm not even allowed to discuss it around her... its gonna be a hard sell with her even if it is amazingly cool because of her view of the rampant sexism of it. -I wish I had a signifigant other that liked D&D like I did. My girlfriend likes playing a modified version of D&D, but her style is, as I call it, "Butterflies, and zebras, and moonbeams, in a fairytale".
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:20 AM	Believe me, I count myself lucky pretty much every day...
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:24 AM	-Well, you live on the west coast, so, there's one thing to feel sorry about yourself for.
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:31 AM	Funny, I was going to mention that to you about the East Coast, but didn't want to rub it in too much... :P
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:46 AM	Funny, I was going to mention that to you about the East Coast, but didn't want to rub it in too much... :P -I don't like most of the East Coast. Up north, there's Boston, and down South, there's hicks. But, at least the East Coast isn't going to eventually detach and float off into the ocean, like a fat, engorged tick done leeching off of it's host.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:49 AM	Don't you homies be gettin' all Gangsta up in ma house! For now, my wife is so adamantly PO'd about 4e I'm not even allowed to discuss it around her... its gonna be a hard sell with her even if it is amazingly cool because of her view of the rampant sexism of it.Just tell her that they are replacing them with the Eight Brothers, who are SO much cooler then the old NPCs. :P
Meldread 11-30-07, 04:56 AM	This thread is just ridiculous. :rolleyes: It just appears to me as a desperate grasp at straws in an attempt to convince WotC to change their mind, and thinly veiled at that. "You're beating up on the women! You can't go through with these changes or you'll be a sexist pig!" Sure, you'll ignore the death of Halastar, Vhaeraun, Helm, and a score of other lesser, minor and more popular characters from Blackstaff on downward. I mean none of this had anything to do with the fact that it seems they are going for a completely fresh start, and there happened to be a very large number of females in powerful positions, along with males, who were all more or less eliminated together. Oh well... I guess desperate people will grasp onto anything they can find.
Stigger 11-30-07, 06:26 AM	Don't you homies be gettin' all Gangsta up in ma house! *Yawn* Sorry, grew up in Oakland and knew far too many West Coast rappers back in the day to be impressed... :P :D Just tell her that they are replacing them with the Eight Brothers, who are SO much cooler then the old NPCs. :P Uhm... yeah, I'm sure that'll make it all better for her. Either that or get me emasculated... :blink:
Fire_Wraith 11-30-07, 07:19 AM	John, I think we touched on this topic a bit beforehand, and I'd toss into the mix a few others that will likely be killed, taken off the scene, or just rendered skeletons via passage of time by the seemingly likely time jump - Caladnei and Alusair. My joke at the time of that old post was "What does that leave us in terms of female rulers? Ilsevele in Myth Drannor, but give them time and a few drow assassins..." :devil: This thread is just ridiculous. :rolleyes: It just appears to me as a desperate grasp at straws in an attempt to convince WotC to change their mind, and thinly veiled at that. "You're beating up on the women! You can't go through with these changes or you'll be a sexist pig!" There's a very important principle when it comes to such things as marketing, politics, and a few other arenas, and that is: Perception is Reality. What this means, is that if someone believes something to be true, it doesn't matter whether it really is or not, because the effect is essentially the same as if it was true, within the scope of that person. Now, I am certainly not inclined to believe that the designers (Rich, Bruce, and everyone else) sat down and deliberately set out to do away with or greatly weaken a majority of the strong female figures in the Realms, nor do I think they consciously planned to make them all look this bad. However, I do think John is correct in his assessment of what the end result is. Rather than trying to ignore what is a valid interpretation of the events, perhaps it would be better for the designers to be made aware of just how bad all this looks in a certain light. Sure, you'll ignore the death of Halastar, Vhaeraun, Helm, and a score of other lesser, minor and more popular characters from Blackstaff on downward. I mean none of this had anything to do with the fact that it seems they are going for a completely fresh start, and there happened to be a very large number of females in powerful positions, along with males, who were all more or less eliminated together. There were/are male NPCs killed and getting killed off, yes - but the number of them versus the number that are staying is vastly disproportionate. It's also one thing to have a female character in a supporting role, versus one who can take a leading role. There are a lot fewer of the latter, and many of the most famous of those are the ones getting killed off. Put it this way - if I run a company that has 90 white and 10 african-american employees, and I lay off 4 whites and 7 african-americans, do you think my actions would be seen as biased? I'll tell you one thing though - burying your head in the sand and ignoring it, or insisting it's not the case, is not going to make it go away.
msatran 11-30-07, 07:51 AM	Yeah. The reason why perception can equal reality is that people now equate statement with action, largely as a result of inappropriate viewing of...well...people who play RPGs. Meaning systems have changed, but unfortunately, most people don't realize those systems of meaning have changed, so it DOES look very suspicious.
Fire_Wraith 11-30-07, 08:43 AM	I'll put an addendum to this - there are two very good ways to go about addressing perception problems. I'll call them Action and Authority. Authority is where you turn to someone who has unshakeable authority on the subject. This is someone who, because of who they are, and what they have done in the past, positions they have held, et cetera, is virtually immune to any accusations or suspicions in that area. As a result, they are able to speak out, and defuse the matter, because their reputation in that area is so unassailable. The second method is Action. If you don't have someone whose actions already speak for them, to speak for you, then you have to do something yourself. Take action to demonstrate clearly the truth of the matter. At the very least, it shows that you care about the criticism, and take it seriously.
Lord Toast 11-30-07, 08:46 AM	1) Mystra being killed by a obessive man( re:Cyric ) who as been stalking her and tormenting her. When she tried to fight back she was told no. I mean my youngest sister had a bad relationship and was stalked by this guy till he seriously hurt her...so this one really strikes home for me. And she is being replaced by a male god.>> Cyric is the god of Murder so he was operating within his portfolio. Mystra was told no but she still managed to work against Cyric, at least that is the impression I got from the Realm novels and supplements. She is not being replaced by any god or goddess of magic (technically it would need to be a Power that understands the Weave) this was addressed in the “Ask the designers thread”…I’m too lazy to track down a quote. 2)Tymora role in the love triangle as a meek woman from the middle ages. And their seemingly refusal to promote to greater godhood though all the lore would suggest that she should be. Also Sune came out looking like a idiot.>> Besides the Grand History supplement, is there a short story or novel I missed that suggests Tymora was meek during the whole tragedy? As for Sune, it is my opinion she was working well within her preview as the goddess of love. 2) The 7 Sisters are either going to be killed off or serverly weakened in the furure. While Elminster and Drizzt will be left on their own and powerful.>> We have no information on how El is being affected at all; the same can be said about the 5 remaining sisters. Considering the true nature of magic is being changed, I don’t think he will be all powerful…heck I think he might actually slip into insanity. Drizzt is well a ranger with superior fighting skill who happens to be a member of a long lived race. 5) Siamorph who I used to view as a strong female noble being reduced to a lesser noble of another god...>> Your opinion varies from mine on her new role. I still see her as a strong female noble. It is my belief there is nothing lesser about her new(old?) responsibilities. 6) Shar who is the second most powerful goddess in the world and just as sneaky as Cyric still needed him to do something she has been trying to do since the start of time.>> No one knows what Shar has done except Cyric. The Goddess of Secrets and Loss got away with it. In my book she is still one of the ultimate bad-@** and a true threat to Realmspace. “So can anybody show me anything about the New Realms where women there is a strong female character not acting incompetently?” Pretty tall order there John. I don’t see the women listed above being incompetent or being objectified.
Redrake 11-30-07, 08:47 AM	I would think that Alustriel(of the 7 Sisters) has the best shot of remaining where she was in power...but I don't think Drizzt even mentioned her in the Prologue to the Orc King...though I will have to check again. Alustriel is a mage so she might be affected by the Spellplague more than other sisters. I'm really curious about Sylune since she's a spectre and Dove since she's a ranger. These 2 IMO should suffer less effects, but I strongly doubt that Dove would remain immortal so 100 years afterwards she would be dead of old age.
Mula 11-30-07, 09:03 AM	Also I started this thread to see if there is anything out there to prove me wrong. You have failed to do so...anybody else out there? Oh my god, john, judging by your replies you don't even want to be proved wrong. :rofl:
Rauric 11-30-07, 09:43 AM	I just think that they wanted to take down some NPCs and many of the powerful NPCs (gods included) are female. Selune is still around and I would love to see her elevated if possible in the aftermath. Tymora is still around and hopefully going to be elevated. Anyway I do not believe it is an anti-woman conspiracy John, it is just that many beings of power are women. They also took out many MALE npcs as well. ;)
GothicDan 11-30-07, 10:27 AM	Oh my god, john, judging by your replies you don't even want to be proved wrong. Wanting to be proved wrong is a terrible thing. Wishing that reality wasn't the way that you perceived it, is different.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 10:42 AM	So can anybody show me anything about the New Realms where women there is a strong female character not acting incompetently? Lolth. I think it's good that you are thinking about this (and the portrayal of Tymora bothered me, too!), but I'm not ready to agree that females in the Realms are all being depowered. We don't know yet who (if anyone) will be Mystra's replacement...and you all know that I'd be the last person to agree that Shar is being made out as "weak".:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 10:45 AM	Sure...I am against it all for the most part...but find it very out of character for Siamorph and very out of character for the Realms to have the concept of Ladies in waiting. Remeber a Lady and a Lord are equal in Realms society...women are viewed more than just brood mares. A Lady-in-waiting isn't a "brood mare", though, she is a companion to a queen or a princess (or other high-ranking female). In the Cormyr novel Tanalasta is mentioned as having "ladies-of-chamber". It's not a degrading thing at all, it's supposed to be honorable.:) Sune is a very shallow goddess who view people only skin deep.(No offense Rhino) Atleast that is how she has been depicted and written. None taken, though I disagree (in part).:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 10:56 AM	Besides the Grand History supplement, is there a short story or novel I missed that suggests Tymora was meek during the whole tragedy? No...but that's because this tragedy is ONLY mentioned in the Grand History of the Realms. And yes, she was an unbelievably passive character in the story we are talking about.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 10:57 AM	Alustriel is a mage so she might be affected by the Spellplague more than other sisters. Uh, her sisters are all mages as well to some degree, with the exception of Qilue, a cleric (who isn't doing so well either--see the Lady Penitent trilogy).
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 11:29 AM	Isn't another one a Ranger? Then again, thats still divine magic... Its very easy to blow this out of proportion, but they are killing off everyone. The fact that Drizzt and Elminster are sticking around is because of their Iconic status - if they were females they would have still been kept. I sincerely doubt they made any conscious decision to "get rid of the girls", but its good that John has brought this up so that they have time to review their material and see if it does seem to be leaning that way, however unintentional. Besides, its supposed to be 'Rowlings' meets 'D&D' in 4th edition, and everyone knows Harry is all about the Hot Witches. ;)
Redrake 11-30-07, 11:54 AM	Isn't another one a Ranger? Then again, thats still divine magic... Its very easy to blow this out of proportion, but they are killing off everyone. The fact that Drizzt and Elminster are sticking around is because of their Iconic status - if they were females they would have still been kept. That what I was talking about. Dove Falconhand, she's a ranger. While is true that all the sisters have some magical aptitudes, the Spellplague does seem to affect only those who dedicate themselves to magic. Otherwise, I doubt any other kind of magical ability would work. Drizzt's cat shows up in Orc King and she nearly got killed during the Time of Trouble. Can't think of how else could she have survived the Spellplague. I would say that out of the sisters, most likely Dove as a ranger and Storm as a bard would have the highest chances of survival.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 12:52 PM	Isn't another one a Ranger? Then again, thats still divine magic... Dove was a mage before she became a ranger--she was a "mage" (of 9th level) in 2E, and a "sorcerer" in 3E. All the sisters except Qilue have a least some levels in wizard or sorcerer, even if it's not primarily what they are.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 12:53 PM	Oh my god, john, judging by your replies you don't even want to be proved wrong. :rofl: Sorry but your arguements were weak...and really did nothing to counter what I said.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 12:54 PM	While is true that all the sisters have some magical aptitudes, the Spellplague does seem to affect only those who dedicate themselves to magic. No one knows enough about the nature of the Spellplague at this time to be able to make that kind of statement (except WotC, of course).
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 12:57 PM	Alustriel is a mage so she might be affected by the Spellplague more than other sisters. I'm really curious about Sylune since she's a spectre and Dove since she's a ranger. These 2 IMO should suffer less effects, but I strongly doubt that Dove would remain immortal so 100 years afterwards she would be dead of old age. Sylune is already gone...as of the Shadowdale adventure.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 01:21 PM	Cyric is the god of Murder so he was operating within his portfolio. Mystra was told no but she still managed to work against Cyric, at least that is the impression I got from the Realm novels and supplements. She is not being replaced by any god or goddess of magic (technically it would need to be a Power that understands the Weave) this was addressed in the “Ask the designers thread”…I’m too lazy to track down a quote. Actualy what they said is won't be replace as goddess of the Weave. Thinking there won't be a new god of magic is like thinking that their won't be a god of war...there will be one and since their have said it before the FR will follow core it is that much of a stretch to see Corelleon taking that duty especialy when they said other races wizards will worshipp him. Also this completely ignores that the they called Cyric killing Mystra a appriotpate ending to their story. Now that he has completely stalked her and killed her he can move on. Besides the Grand History supplement, is there a short story or novel I missed that suggests Tymora was meek during the whole tragedy? As for Sune, it is my opinion she was working well within her preview as the goddess of love. No all we have is the GHotR...which is enough. I didn't say that Sune wasn't working within her preview...if Tyr is going to disaapear because his role in Helm's death will become known...then wouldn't Sune's role has a goddess of love be damaged by this doomed love arrangement? Also if Cyric was involved shouldn't she have known what was going on. We have no information on how El is being affected at all; the same can be said about the 5 remaining sisters. Considering the true nature of magic is being changed, I don’t think he will be all powerful…heck I think he might actually slip into insanity. Drizzt is well a ranger with superior fighting skill who happens to be a member of a long lived race. We do know the the the Sisters who get to live will be made less powerful and relevant. We don't any such statement about El...just that he will still be around. Your opinion varies from mine on her new role. I still see her as a strong female noble. It is my belief there is nothing lesser about her new(old?) responsibilities. In our world a Lady in Waiting was the role given to noble woman. It was the way to find husbands to marry. And to firm up alliances between a lesser noble and a king. In the Realms there are supposed to be equal...so why aren't there any men in waiting or noblewoman knights? Her role as the goddess of nobility should reflect all nobles and she shouldn't be limited by her gender. To do so is to suppress her role. No one knows what Shar has done except Cyric. The Goddess of Secrets and Loss got away with it. In my book she is still one of the ultimate bad-@** and a true threat to Realmspace. She didn't get anything for it...also again why didn't she have the power to do this herself? I mean stat wise she dwarfs Cyric. And as a goddess of secrets she could have gotten away with it. And what was the punishment...a 1000 years of imprisonment(which we all know won't last that long) Shar should have done this a eons ago. She is patience and can wait that long. So it just doesn't make sense. “So can anybody show me anything about the New Realms where women there is a strong female character not acting incompetently?” Pretty tall order there John. I don’t see the women listed above being incompetent or being objectified. That is fine you can disagree with me. It is possible that I am wrong here....if I didn't think so I wouldn't be here and would have just ignored what WotC does from here till the end. Let me add while I hope this is not true...I am not going to blindly change just because people just say I should. If you disagree that is fine...I am sure you can list women in the Realms that will becoming more powerful outside of my list that I might have missed
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 01:38 PM	Lolth. I think it's good that you are thinking about this (and the portrayal of Tymora bothered me, too!), but I'm not ready to agree that females in the Realms are all being depowered. We don't know yet who (if anyone) will be Mystra's replacement...and you all know that I'd be the last person to agree that Shar is being made out as "weak".:P Thank you for not blasting me for thinking this.... But let me address this. Corellon Larethian is going to be the Realms god of magic(not the weave) as that is his new role in D&D overall. Sure they haven't come out and said this but they have no problem with a god of magic...just not one who is as powerful as Mystra supposely was. Shar and Lolth...sure it could be argued that they are stronger...though I will wait and see on Lolth(though it is because of Eilistraee engaging in a game....with her worshippers souls...which is just stupid in my opinion) and like I said why did Shar need Cyric? She could have done this years ago if it was that easy. Also there is the fact that the only powerful and competent women are evil.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 01:49 PM	A Lady-in-waiting isn't a "brood mare", though, she is a companion to a queen or a princess (or other high-ranking female). In the Cormyr novel Tanalasta is mentioned as having "ladies-of-chamber". It's not a degrading thing at all, it's supposed to be honorable.:) Wouldn't it make more sense for her to take a more powerful role? I mean she is the goddess of nobility after all. How is her portfolio being served by becoming Sune's lady in waiting? I mean suggestion this seems to me to indicate the role of female nobles is to be beautiful....it is a diminishment of her. Also while it was suppose to be a honor...it is still subservient to what a male noble could attain in our world. Please note the Realms don't have our history of this. It is a pet peeve to me when people point out our history of the nobility structure as a example of how the Realm's should work. It is like when somebody say x place is x place on out planet. None taken, though I disagree (in part).:) How so...to me Sune as been always a bit shallow(with her refusing to grant spells to ugly(on the outside) clerics. I am not saying she is evil or such...or can't be good. But now the most powerful goddess left is one who is well shallow(as written). And while might not be could be turned into the old classical fantasy archtype of the damsel in distress.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 02:07 PM	This thread is just ridiculous. :rolleyes: It just appears to me as a desperate grasp at straws in an attempt to convince WotC to change their mind, and thinly veiled at that. "You're beating up on the women! You can't go through with these changes or you'll be a sexist pig!" Sure, you'll ignore the death of Halastar, Vhaeraun, Helm, and a score of other lesser, minor and more popular characters from Blackstaff on downward. I mean none of this had anything to do with the fact that it seems they are going for a completely fresh start, and there happened to be a very large number of females in powerful positions, along with males, who were all more or less eliminated together. Oh well... I guess desperate people will grasp onto anything they can find. So lets look at your list... Halastar's and Khelban's death both happened under 3rd edition...it is really are part of the New realms. Helm: sure I'll give you so 1 male death to how many female gods? Vhaeraun: Death served to corrupt a good female goddess and his final fate hasn't been revealed as of yet. Can you list others? But you are wrong in something I am not desparate or even have a care of what WotC does anymore. At best I have a passing interest.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 02:13 PM	So let says for arguement sake that Shar and Lolth are powerful. So doesn't this say a woman who is powerful has to be: 1) Evil 2)Backstabbing 3)Petty 4)Slutty 5)Shallow 6)Manipulative. How is this a good role model? I mean painting a powerful woman as evil and dark really isn't a good thing is it?
Redrake 11-30-07, 02:24 PM	Perhaps the hidden message is that all women with godly power are evil.;) Unless of course, they decide to promote some demi-power goddesses as good greater deities. Bast, Shiallia or Red Knight for example.
Lord Toast 11-30-07, 02:42 PM	Hey John, Eventually i am going to learn how to use this quote system correctly until then....bear with me: <<Actualy what they said is won't be replace as goddess of the Weave. Thinking there won't be a new god of magic is like thinking that their won't be a god of war...there will be one and since their have said it before the FR will follow core it is that much of a stretch to see Corelleon taking that duty especialy when they said other races wizards will worshipp him.>> Okay, a good possibility. There are other demihuman deities of magic in the Realms though and there is one female greater deity from the Mulhrond pantheon. <<Also this completely ignores that the they called Cyric killing Mystra a appriotpate ending to their story. Now that he has completely stalked her and killed her he can move on. >> I confess, I must of missed that statement. I will look it up when I get off work. And if it is accurate, where does this leave Kelevmor? (No need to answer, deviates from topic) <<No all we have is the GHotR...which is enough. I didn't say that Sune wasn't working within her preview...if Tyr is going to disaapear because his role in Helm's death will become known...then wouldn't Sune's role has a goddess of love be damaged by this doomed love arrangement? Also if Cyric was involved shouldn't she have known what was going on.>> Once again, I need to reread the passage to see if the authors implied Tymora was being meek about the arrangement or just being a fickle goddess who was asked to do a favor or maybe the hidden meaning is Sune works some mojo on Tymora. As for Sune I am sure she has had her fair share of doomed love affairs, even on the cosmic scale. I’m not sure how this makes her look like ‘idiot’ to other beings. As for the last line about Cyric, the answer is no, why would she know about Cyrics involvement. <<We do know the the the Sisters who get to live will be made less powerful and relevant. We don't any such statement about El...just that he will still be around.>> Precisely, we don’t know about his power being scaled back or remaining the same. The only reason we know anything at all about the Sisters is because as a community we complained. <<In our world a Lady in Waiting was the role given to noble woman. It was the way to find husbands to marry. And to firm up alliances between a lesser noble and a king. In the Realms there are supposed to be equal...so why aren't there any men in waiting or noblewoman knights? Her role as the goddess of nobility should reflect all nobles and she shouldn't be limited by her gender. To do so is to suppress her role.>> Real world analogy…I’m going to ignore it. Far as I know there are men-in-waiting, I’m going to research this one or at least ask Ed. Noblewoman knights, we do have the Red Knight, maybe not the best example, but the only one I can think of right off the bat. <<She didn't get anything for it...also again why didn't she have the power to do this herself? I mean stat wise she dwarfs Cyric. And as a goddess of secrets she could have gotten away with it. And what was the punishment...a 1000 years of imprisonment(which we all know won't last that long) Shar should have done this a eons ago. She is patience and can wait that long. So it just doesn't make sense.>> Yes she did get something out of the destruction of Mystra, one opponent in the Grand Game is gone. The possible loss of the Shadow Weave remains to be seen but I don’t think that would set her back at all. She did get away with it, she isn’t the one imprisoned; nor did they call Ao in to reprimand her. She did wait eons. She knew this was a good time to act. And just to let everyone know, I don't think the gods should have stats, they are not some creature from the Monster Manuals. If we went by stats Lolth should of defeated the slime god hands down. <<That is fine you can disagree with me. It is possible that I am wrong here....if I didn't think so I wouldn't be here and would have just ignored what WotC does from here till the end. Let me add while I hope this is not true...I am not going to blindly change just because people just say I should.>> I am a firm believer in healthy discussions. As long as they don’t degenerate into name calling….so-so needs to be stopped…etc…I don't think you are wrong, there might be some merit toyour feelings. <<If you disagree that is fine...I am sure you can list women in the Realms that will becoming more powerful outside of my list that I might have missed>> Yup, I can….how in the Nine Hells did you know about my list?!:eek: So far I have learned you are a passionate person, and you help me realize that the Goddess of Nobles is gender neutral. But you haven’t convinced me there is a grand conspiracy to intentionally or unintentionally depower all or most of the powerful women in the Realms. I will be keeping an open-mind though.
Fire_Wraith 11-30-07, 02:42 PM	I'll echo the same notion as John. Having the strong female roles associated solely or primarily with 'evil' or villainous characters leads us down a very bad path. Again, I realize that this was probably not the intent of the designers at all, but nonetheless, here we are, or soon will be. Many times myself, I've made totally unrelated decisions, and wound up with someone else telling me, "You do realize what this all looks like, right?" It can well be a very subconscious thing, where many of us don't even realize the roles that we are relegating people to, because the sort of cultural stereotypes these things embody are pretty deep-set. For instance, it is very common (at least in the USA) for a strong, assertive, calculating, advancement/career-minded woman to be labeled in a very negative way (B**ch). A man that exhibited the exact same behavior would instead usually be labeled "Ambitious", in somewhat more of a neutral term (it can be negative, but need not be inherently so). The words usually used for a promiscuous man ("stud") versus promiscuous female ("****") are another example - the former has positive/complimentary tones to it, the latter insulting/derogatory ones. So what is my point in all of this? That there are stereotypical gender roles in our cultural history. Overuse of the stereotypical roles, especially the reinforcing of negative stereotypes without positive ones to counteract it, hurts us, and leaves us stuck with these same kinds of problems. ...and since 4e seems to be a lot about simplifying everything, I'll put it in "Kindergarten terms": -Killing strong female good guy main character types = BAD. -Having primary strong female characters be Evil = MORE BAD.
Lord Toast 11-30-07, 02:44 PM	No...but that's because this tragedy is ONLY mentioned in the Grand History of the Realms. And yes, she was an unbelievably passive character in the story we are talking about. You know, I'm going to wiz-zero q&a for Chris thread and ask about this...or at least demand a story be written for it...I am still upset about the Bane issue.
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:51 PM	"Heartbroken, Tymora accompanies Tyr back to the House of the Triad." Sounds pretty passive to me... invokes images of a woman walking with the stern patriarch, head down, gaze on the ground, numbly following her man... not sure it could get much more passive, unless maybe she was leashed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 03:00 PM	Thank you for not blasting me for thinking this.... You're welcome.;) But let me address this. Corellon Larethian is going to be the Realms god of magic(not the weave) as that is his new role in D&D overall. Sure they haven't come out and said this but they have no problem with a god of magic...just not one who is as powerful as Mystra supposely was. It looks likely that Corellon will "replace" Mystra, but as you admit that hasn't been announced yet. I prefer to go by what information we do know for certain. Shar and Lolth...sure it could be argued that they are stronger...though I will wait and see on Lolth(though it is because of Eilistraee engaging in a game....with her worshippers souls...which is just stupid in my opinion) and like I said why did Shar need Cyric? She could have done this years ago if it was that easy. Also there is the fact that the only powerful and competent women are evil. Regarding Shar--she is WotC's favorite deity, as I have always said.;) To be fair, though, we haven't seen the full picture yet, although I agree that so far many goodly female deities haven't come off well. I would agree with the person who said Sune seems to be waxing in power in influence (or at least, that's how it's appearing to the reader), but I don't think she's been portrayed well either. Depending on how one interprets her actions, she can come off as a calculating power-monger.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 03:08 PM	Wouldn't it make more sense for her to take a more powerful role? I mean she is the goddess of nobility after all. How is her portfolio being served by becoming Sune's lady in waiting? I mean suggestion this seems to me to indicate the role of female nobles is to be beautiful....it is a diminishment of her. I have to admit, I'm not the best person to ask if Siamorphe should have a more powerful role, because I'm not very fond of her as a goddess to begin with. I'm biased against her.:) So with that in mind, I should probably pass on this, other than to say that she's already a demipower with a small following (and among nobles, who are a minority albeit a powerful minority), so I'm not surprised that she's likely to remain a demigod in the 4E Realms. Also while it was suppose to be a honor...it is still subservient to what a male noble could attain in our world. Please note the Realms don't have our history of this. True, but like I said I've seen ladies-in-waiting in fiction written by Ed Greenwood, and if you asked him his opinion he'd probably say it's not degrading role to have. That's my guess--maybe ask him on Candlekeep? How so...to me Sune as been always a bit shallow(with her refusing to grant spells to ugly(on the outside) clerics. I don't know all the nitty gritty details on how that works, other than that 2E specialty priests of Sune needed at least 16 CHA. I'll just say that Sune, as I envision her, is not shallow at all. As for novels that portrayed her as such--those novels are wrong.;)
GothicDan 11-30-07, 03:31 PM	I'm a big fan of Siamorphe (and Sune, too! - I've had a few characters that have worshiped her a lot, or her, Lliira, and Sharess), and I do think she should have a bigger role. I'd love for SIAMORPHE to have become the betrothed of Tyr, and have gotten a power boost. I'd also love to see her set up more against Bane and/or Gargauth.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 03:31 PM	Once again, I need to reread the passage to see if the authors implied Tymora was being meek about the arrangement or just being a fickle goddess who was asked to do a favor or maybe the hidden meaning is Sune works some mojo on Tymora. I can't speak for the designers' intentions, but some us here (myself included) thought Tymora was portrayal as passive for the following reasons: --We are given no information as to what Tymora thinks of Sune suggesting that Tyr marry her to "balance the planes" (which was a silly plot device too, IMO). Notice how the text says that Sune suggested this to Tyr, not to Tymora (or both). --Tyr and Tymora don't "date"--Helm acts as a go-between and reports what Tymora says (I guess?) for Tyr. Again, no information is given on what Tymora thinks of either Tyr or Helm, we are just told that some kind of conflict arose between these two gods over the heart of Tymora. --After Tyr kills Helm, Tymora is "heartbroken" and simply heads to to the House of the Triad with Tyr (!). This begs the question--why on earth would she have done such a thing? Did she have no say? If she's so "heartbroken" over what happened, why is she heading off with the participant who just happened to be the victor? Does she even LOVE either Helm or Tyr? I'm not trying to convince anyone to see things my way, just explaining why some of us are disgusted at Tymora's portrayal and think it was indeed meek and out of character.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 03:44 PM	"Heartbroken, Tymora accompanies Tyr back to the House of the Triad." Sounds pretty passive to me... invokes images of a woman walking with the stern patriarch, head down, gaze on the ground, numbly following her man... not sure it could get much more passive, unless maybe she was leashed.I was looking through some old Valejo stuff to find an appropriate pic (his stuff from Gor all shows collared women), and this seemed to be the only one to fit - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Nomads_Gor.jpg There's still a collar and chain, but it's not as prominent as it is in other pieces. I think they make a great Tymora and Tyr. :D I'm not trying to convince anyone to see things my way, just explaining why some of us are disgusted at Tymora's portrayal and think it was indeed meek and out of character.Pretty much my point - the pic was to demonstrate what seems to have happened (using Stigger's visual), which we know does not appear in any way Realmsian.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 04:02 PM	I have to admit, I'm not the best person to ask if Siamorphe should have a more powerful role, because I'm not very fond of her as a goddess to begin with. I'm biased against her.:) So with that in mind, I should probably pass on this, other than to say that she's already a demipower with a small following (and among nobles, who are a minority albeit a powerful minority), so I'm not surprised that she's likely to remain a demigod in the 4E Realms. While it is true she doesn't have that many worshippers...but I think she has been greatly misrepresented in fiction as Sune has. Do remember according to her description in the dhe just doesn't think nobels are all that...she represents the a more ideal noble philosphy which is to say sure nobels are superior and they have the power but with it comes a duty and responisiblity. She wopuld be against any nobel who abuses that power. But she would be more in place in the house of the Triad(or Duo...um...with Torm). True, but like I said I've seen ladies-in-waiting in fiction written by Ed Greenwood, and if you asked him his opinion he'd probably say it's not degrading role to have. That's my guess--maybe ask him on Candlekeep? I am not a member of Candlekeep can anybody ask for me I am most curious to see Ed's response to the question of what the role of woman nobels are in the Realms. Or should I join it? I don't know all the nitty gritty details on how that works, other than that 2E specialty priests of Sune needed at least 16 CHA. I'll just say that Sune, as I envision her, is not shallow at all. As for novels that portrayed her as such--those novels are wrong.;) She abandon Adon because of a scar...and yes I agree the Sune in my Realms has more depth, but I am talking about the official version of the Realms.
Mula 11-30-07, 04:08 PM	Corellon Larethian will probably be getting the duties as the god of magic in the Realms as he has it in the core pantheon. Has just a strong defender of 4th edition do you even read the Design & Development articles?I've read nothing about Corellon Larethian becoming THE deity of magic in the Realms, replacing Mystra, in any article.So what you are saying is that she set this up to gain power by backstabbing her friends? Is this a picture we want to paint of a good aligned woman that they are petty and backstabing power mongers? Also there is more to life then power. Also her portfolio is love...this set up is a very clossal error on her part.Umm, john, you were claiming that Sune is an idiot (and presumably she's being depowered?). I said that she is in fact gaining power, and now you're sidestepping the issue, turning it to a question about Sune's motives. You completely ignored my example because you couldn't prove it wrong. She is not an idiot at all, because the marriage would've worked just fine were it not for Cyric messing around. Also, when things went downhill, she seized the opportunity and invited Ilmater to her court. You can look at this either being helpful or opportunistic.Popularity means little and is fleeting...also since they are trying to attract new people to the Realms current popularity means little to what popularity they might archieved.Uh, what? Popularity is fleeting? So what? They're popular RIGHT NOW and have been so for a long time and that's what matters. They're removing a lot of powerful good/neutral NPCs (or at least depowering them) and many of them happen to be female. However, Elminster and Drizzt are so popular that they're not going to remove them because it would probably mean a big loss in novel sales. The powerful good/allied/neutral NPCs are not a problem in novels, really (in fact, Drizzt and El sell them), but they are causing headache in the RPG department. Sure...I am against it all for the most part...but find it very out of character for Siamorph and very out of character for the Realms to have the concept of Ladies in waiting. Remeber a Lady and a Lord are equal in Realms society...women are viewed more than just brood mares.Out of character for Siamorphe to disagree with Tyr? That's the reason why she left his realm. That's not weakening female figures of the Realms, not at all. 1) Cyric punishment isn't going to stick. And we don't know if she is not going to be punished at all.This has what to do with your issue about killing/weakening women in FR?2) Shar completely and utterly failed in what she was trying to do. I mean her master plan was to cloak Cyric so he could do it...so why didn't she do this herself? She has the power, the stealth, and a million times the experience to do it and get away with it.So because she uses a pawn like any true mastermind, she's somehow being portrayed weak and stupid? What?! Utterly failed? She destroyed Mystra and the Weave. Sune is a very shallow goddess who view people only skin deep.(No offense Rhino) Atleast that is how she has been depicted and written.And this is relevant with your issue regarding weakening of females in 4e Realms how? Ok while we don't know what will happen to Lolth and I can argue about Shar being a masterplaner, yet her plans can be countered by a 3 year old,...So what you are saying is powerful and competent females must be... 1) Evil 2)Backstabbing 3)Petty 4)Slutty 5)Shallow 6)Manipulative. Yup this will get women to come and play in the FR in droves. :rolleyes:Now, here's something real. I actually almost wrote something along these lines previously. :) This has nothing to do with portraying women in FR weak, but portraying women as antagonists.
buzzard 11-30-07, 04:14 PM	Wow John, you are so conveniently excluding Chauntea from your analysis to suit your purposes... May I remind you that Chauntea is the most powerful goddess, above both Mystra and Shar and she is neutral good and portrayed as a caring, nurturing, lovable mother to living beings?
GothicDan 11-30-07, 04:15 PM	... And had absolutely not a wit of action, say, or care in the entire debacle. That's one of the most terrible things about it, as far as I'm concerned.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 04:17 PM	While it is true she doesn't have that many worshippers...but I think she has been greatly misrepresented in fiction as Sune has. Do remember according to her description in the dhe just doesn't think nobels are all that...she represents the a more ideal noble philosphy which is to say sure nobels are superior and they have the power but with it comes a duty and responisiblity. She wopuld be against any nobel who abuses that power. But she would be more in place in the house of the Triad(or Duo...um...with Torm). Well, like I said I find her annoying (whether that's fair or not), so I'm not the best person to champion for her.:) I am not a member of Candlekeep can anybody ask for me I am most curious to see Ed's response to the question of what the role of woman nobels are in the Realms. Or should I join it? Join. She abandon Adon because of a scar...and yes I agree the Sune in my Realms has more depth, but I am talking about the official version of the Realms. The Sune in that novel was dumb, and an imposter.;)
IanB 11-30-07, 04:17 PM	I've noticed there's a definite decline in balance in terms of how the major female characters are going to be presented for the FR. Before, there was a relatively large amount of diversity; post 4E it appears it is going to be "Mostly evil, plus Sune." Add this on top of the way the plotlines and female characters were treated in Savage Tide and I'm getting pretty annoyed with my two major sources of not-written-by-me D&D content (WotC & Paizo.) What makes it sort of frustrating is that in WotC's case, this is a big step back from what was years of (mostly) good progress in terms of the presentation of women in D&D products. Also concerning is that FR is getting the organized play spotlight now, so those representations will be front and center for that group of gamers, which is (I understand) a decent source of new blood. At least the minis game is still doing a good job of providing realistically armored female figures for the most part. <3 DDM.
buzzard 11-30-07, 04:19 PM	... And had absolutely not a wit of action, say, or care in the entire debacle. ¿Your point being? That doesn't make her any less powerful, she's still the strongest, which proves the original poster's wrong. Especially his argument that powerful women in the realms are evil and manipulators.
GothicDan 11-30-07, 04:20 PM	Where did I say she wasn't powerful? It's just that her power is useless is it's never used or displayed in any meaningful way. So, it still highlights the fact that WotC isn't doing anything to accurately portray the female deities as they should. Mind you, I don't see things as seriously as John does. But I really am upset at the death of Mystra, Selune and Chauntea not having done anything of note in the whole debacle, and the pruning of the Seven.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 04:24 PM	She is not an idiot at all, because the marriage would've worked just fine were it not for Cyric messing around. Well, that's something we'll probably never know for sure (at least if Tyr really does bow out of the Realms setting).
Fire_Wraith 11-30-07, 04:25 PM	¿Your point being? That doesn't make her any less powerful, she's still the strongest, which proves the original poster's wrong. Especially his argument that powerful women in the realms are evil and manipulators. And the message sent here, instead, is: "It's okay for women to have power, if they're complete wallflowers, and never, ever, ever, use that power." Again, I doubt it's what was intended, but it's the subconscious undertone that can be taken from it.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:33 PM	And the only novels she was portrayed in were the Moonshaes ones, where she was practically a villain! When the (2nd?) series came out, she was 'taking over' the Earthmother's claim on the islands (like Helm did in Maztica, but less violently). This has been ret-conned, I think, in 3e that the Earthmother and Chauntee were always one and the same (a fragment ? a lost Avatar?). Another example is in some of the Kara-Tur adventures, where the church of Chantee (Chauntea) is trying to push out the oriental agricultural gods and carve a place of her own in the Celestial Bureaucracy. This is why her religion is currently OUTLAWED on the island nations. So in Faerûn, she's pretty much a no-show, leaving the running of things to her underlings. On other fronts, however, she has been trying to oust the local gods for her own worship - this does not shed a ery good light on her, and is NOT at all like I picture her being (like she is in canon sources, not novels and modules).
GothicDan 11-30-07, 04:35 PM	Granted, in canon, Chauntea is Abeir-Toril. All of it. So both the Earthmother and the oriential agricultural deities are truly the interlopers who, one could say, 'raped' part of her body for their own well-being. Sort of like how you think the Faerie Elves did the same to the native Greens and Darks. ;)
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 04:36 PM	Hey John, Eventually i am going to learn how to use this quote system correctly until then....bear with me: I use the Copy paste method of quoting....I'll bear with you...it took me a little time to figure it out also. Okay, a good possibility. There are other demihuman deities of magic in the Realms though and there is one female greater deity from the Mulhrond pantheon. True but they are trying to bring the Realms more in line with the core concepts. I confess, I must of missed that statement. I will look it up when I get off work. And if it is accurate, where does this leave Kelevmor? (No need to answer, deviates from topic) Here is a link... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=702942&page=22 I hope it works. It should be also noted that alot of the changes are due to people's perception...just showing that what they are doing can be precieved a certain way. Once again, I need to reread the passage to see if the authors implied Tymora was being meek about the arrangement or just being a fickle goddess who was asked to do a favor or maybe the hidden meaning is Sune works some mojo on Tymora. As for Sune I am sure she has had her fair share of doomed love affairs, even on the cosmic scale. I’m not sure how this makes her look like ‘idiot’ to other beings. As for the last line about Cyric, the answer is no, why would she know about Cyrics involvement. I will also reread the passage again. Um..shouldn't she know. She is the goddess of relationships peraps haveing a clue that someone is messing with it would be more sense to me sheing how in the matters of love she is the most powerful... Precisely, we don’t know about his power being scaled back or remaining the same. The only reason we know anything at all about the Sisters is because as a community we complained. We don't know...but we do have their actions from the past to determine it. He'll probably be weakened in some way...or even turned into a bad guy. Real world analogy…I’m going to ignore it. Far as I know there are men-in-waiting, I’m going to research this one or at least ask Ed. Noblewoman knights, we do have the Red Knight, maybe not the best example, but the only one I can think of right off the bat. The problem is that they are the ones who seem to be forcing real world analogies on to the Realms. But like I said ask Ed...I am most curious to his response is. Yes she did get something out of the destruction of Mystra, one opponent in the Grand Game is gone. The possible loss of the Shadow Weave remains to be seen but I don’t think that would set her back at all. She did get away with it, she isn’t the one imprisoned; nor did they call Ao in to reprimand her. She did wait eons. She knew this was a good time to act. And just to let everyone know, I don't think the gods should have stats, they are not some creature from the Monster Manuals. If we went by stats Lolth should of defeated the slime god hands down. Ah the 'Great Game' a game Mystra wasn't allowed to use her full powers in...sorry it is very inconsistent. If that was the case then she should have been protected against this Great Game as her roles was very important. I agree with you about stats...or even ranking(greater, lesser, etc) I am a firm believer in healthy discussions. As long as they don’t degenerate into name calling….so-so needs to be stopped…etc…I don't think you are wrong, there might be some merit toyour feelings. I am not trying to insult anyone here. But these are my percetions on this. Yup, I can….how in the Nine Hells did you know about my list?!:eek: So far I have learned you are a passionate person, and you help me realize that the Goddess of Nobles is gender neutral. But you haven’t convinced me there is a grand conspiracy to intentionally or unintentionally depower all or most of the powerful women in the Realms. I will be keeping an open-mind though. I don't think it is being done intentional if at all. Though I am keeping a open mind abouty this...I am curious to see your list.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:38 PM	Granted, in canon, Chauntea is Abeir-Toril. All of it. So both the Earthmother and the oriential agricultural deities are truly the interlopers who, one could say, 'raped' part of her body for their own well-being. Sort of like how you think the Faerie Elves did the same to the native Greens and Darks. ;)Right. But my point was that she has never been portrayed as very 'helpful' either, and with all her power she could do so much good for the world, yet chooses to remain mostly inactive. This further substantiates the OP's point - they've created negative perceptions of women in the realms without even realizing they were doing it.
GothicDan 11-30-07, 04:41 PM	Oh. Well, that didn't seem to be your point. ;)
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 04:45 PM	¿Your point being? That doesn't make her any less powerful, she's still the strongest, which proves the original poster's wrong. Especially his argument that powerful women in the realms are evil and manipulators. And what has she ever done? Did she help Mystra at all? Did she go and punish Cyric for killing a goddess who was protecting her? Heck it doesn't even say she mourned Mystra's lost... Also a pioint...The Realms are going to be ripped apart by the Spellplague and with the whole nonsense of two world colliding...sorry it is very likely her power and role will be diminished. Also you are right I didn't mention Chauntea...because the designers seem to have forggoten she exists.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:47 PM	Hey.... maybe the two Worlds colliding will be Chauntea's evil twin. :eek:
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 05:11 PM	I've read nothing about Corellon Larethian becoming THE deity of magic in the Realms, replacing Mystra, in any article. We'll see true this is a prediction. But I don't think it is a outragous prediction in light have what they have said and done. Umm, john, you were claiming that Sune is an idiot (and presumably she's being depowered?). I said that she is in fact gaining power, and now you're sidestepping the issue, turning it to a question about Sune's motives. You completely ignored my example because you couldn't prove it wrong. You said she gained power because of it...? Wouldn't she gain more power if the marriage had work? Also because of this incident Tyr is gone...wouldn't Sune's involvement also reflect negatively on her? I mean sure I am guessing here...but I am assumeing they will be consistent her. She is not an idiot at all, because the marriage would've worked just fine were it not for Cyric messing around. So Cyric can just run roughshod over anyother gods portfolio? And can't be countered. Also, when things went downhill, she seized the opportunity and invited Ilmater to her court. You can look at this either being helpful or opportunistic. Actualy Illmater just went there...she didn't invite him over. And yes it can be looked at soo many different ways...which is the entire point here. Uh, what? Popularity is fleeting? So what? They're popular RIGHT NOW and have been so for a long time and that's what matters. They're removing a lot of powerful good/neutral NPCs (or at least depowering them) and many of them happen to be female. However, Elminster and Drizzt are so popular that they're not going to remove them because it would probably mean a big loss in novel sales. The powerful good/allied/neutral NPCs are not a problem in novels, really (in fact, Drizzt and El sell them), but they are causing headache in the RPG department. Their popularity is because most people who read those novels and play D&D are male...if they are trying to get more women interesting shouldn't they try to promote serveral strong female protagonists? I mean the Realms had a lot of rich and strong female protagonist to build on. It seems inprudent for them to leave. Out of character for Siamorphe to disagree with Tyr? That's the reason why she left his realm. That's not weakening female figures of the Realms, not at all. So she had to run away and seek help...while Tyr just hanged out with the boys. Also can anybody out a better desciption of caused this disagreement? So because she uses a pawn like any true mastermind, she's somehow being portrayed weak and stupid? The thing is the pawn's punishment was minor, a 1000 years is a blink of the eye for a god and he can still interact fully wit his worshippers. To me this would be a perfect thing for Shar to do earlier...she is a master planner after all and works behind the scenes anyway so the imprisonment wouldn't hinder her at all...and if it is a imprisonment that keeps gods out it can be a great benefit to her. What?! Utterly failed? She destroyed Mystra and the Weave. And this is relevant with your issue regarding weakening of females in 4e Realms how? Shar is trying to take over the Weave....not destroy it. Also I pointed out before she didn't need a pawn. Now, here's something real. I actually almost wrote something along these lines previously. :) This has nothing to do with portraying women in FR weak, but portraying women as antagonists. Well I think I did say that this was also a problem...so nice that we agree on something. :D
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 05:15 PM	Hey.... maybe the two Worlds colliding will be Chauntea's evil twin. :eek: Oh god that is a scary thought that Shar made a shadowery Chauntea....(and scary in a bad way not a good way)
Stigger 11-30-07, 05:17 PM	I think Mula that the Corellon thing comes from a supposition from someone else that kinda took on a life of its own. Think you're correct though that it isn't official, just one of many theories. I seem to recall something being said about Mystra not being replaced at all actually... As to the headaches NPCs are causing... that's more of a bad DM issue than one of the setting. It's been addressed countless times that its only a problem if the DM allows it to become a problem it makes my head spin... The Simbul's excellent post on the matter I think laid out the arguements against that attitude fairly definitively. As to Cyric probably escaping punishment, I think he's getting at the Cyric as Stalker angle. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth with the stalking and killing of Mystra, particularly with the whole failed attempt at having a relationship with her in their mortal days. That more than anything was what really upset my wife I know... enraged would probably be a better way of putting it. I think his point about Women ultimately though was that thematically, women were being portrayed as weak and in need of protection and guidance from the the strong men sort, unless they were evil, in which case they were the downfall of the world. Its a very negative attitude really, and having a few exceptions doesn't really lay rest to the underlying theme. As rude as it sounds, and is really, my wife's basic take on it was that she was sorry whoever came up with this storyline theme didn't get laid in highschool, but they don't need to be taking it out on the Realms and its NPCs. <edit> Funny, I somehow missed that 3rd pages existance entirely... oops. Ah well, such is life.
Storm_Silverhand 11-30-07, 05:41 PM	Heya, I admit here that I haven't read to the end of the thread because I'm just so darned busy I barely have time to scratch my nose let alone spend too much time on the forums making lengthy replies. While I don't necessarily agree with every single one of John's points, I just want to put a few things out there... There are more powerful male characters than there are female. There are more powerful male gods than there are female. There are more male protagonists (ie: leading not supporting characters) in the novels than females. This has been the way of the Realms for some time, despite Ed's protestations to the contrary. (This may not actually be Ed's fault, by the way.) In Cormyr, there's a reason why Myrmeen Lhal is the Lady Lord of Arabel. She is formally addressed as "my lord" for a very good reason... The title of Lady indicates the wife of the ruling Lord. A lady who rules in her own right is a Lady Lord, Myrmeen is one, Tessaril Winter of Eveningstar is another. Cormyr is one of the most patriarchal places in the Realms... That we have a female Regent and Mage Royal is extremely unusual (and IMHO exciting from the perspective that things might start to change towards a more equal system) for the place, and we are just about to lose it. Azoun V will live, rule, and die leaving a male heir most likely before 4th Ed begins (that is pure speculation on my behalf, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it happen like that). I wish people would stop throwing the word "Love" around in conjunction with the melodramatic "arranged marriage" plot. The whole plot never mentions the word love, and the whole arrangement is political. Sune is not the cold hearted power hungry goddess of Politics, she's the warm hearted caring goddess of Love, but you wouldn't know it from the way she has been portrayed in this (and she isn't strengthened by the plot, she's weakened - Tymora is far more powerful than Siamorphe, and I'd say even more powerful than Ilmater... which means she's only just managed to keep the status quo, and would only be ahead if we count Helm's death - and I'm sure the very idea that Tyr and Helm duel to the death leaves her more poweful would horrify Sune (who is Chaotic Good)). Tymora and Tyr's marriage was a strictly political thing... Someone already pointed out that at no point are we allowed to see what Tymora's thoughts on the whole matter are... She acts extremely passively for a goddess who is fickle and strong willed - she goes with Tyr despite the fact that he has just killed Helm. If I were Tymora in this situation or not, actual love or no, I'd be cursing Tyr and going back to Brightwater. Anyway, that's pretty much all I have to say right now. Too much to do, too little time to do it in.
Mula 11-30-07, 05:55 PM	You said she gained power because of it...? Wouldn't she gain more power if the marriage had work? Also because of this incident Tyr is gone...wouldn't Sune's involvement also reflect negatively on her? I mean sure I am guessing here...but I am assumeing they will be consistent her. Actualy Illmater just went there...she didn't invite him over. And yes it can be looked at soo many different ways...which is the entire point here.Sune has gained more power because she's come out of this whole mess with one deity in her celestial court more than before, Ilmater. While there undoubtedly are people in the Realms who now/then view Sune in a bad light because of the failed marriage, she wasn't actually acting stupid but wholly in accordance with her portfolio of love. If you actually read the description of the events in GHoTR, you'll find that "[Ilmater] reestablishes his celestial realm in Brightwater at Sune's invitation."So Cyric can just run roughshod over anyother gods portfolio? And can't be countered.In this particular story, yes. And this has again nothing to do with your original complaint.Their popularity is because most people who read those novels and play D&D are male...if they are trying to get more women interesting shouldn't they try to promote serveral strong female protagonists? I mean the Realms had a lot of rich and strong female protagonist to build on. It seems inprudent for them to leave.You're forgetting now that their goal was to remove powerful good NPCs, for several reasons not relevant in this discussion. They are not going to add them, and are keeping El and Drizzt because they are making WotC good money. If El and Drizzt were not popular, we probably wouldn't see them in 4e.So she had to run away and seek help...while Tyr just hanged out with the boys. Also can anybody out a better desciption of caused this disagreement?No, she didn't run away seeking help, and Tyr didn't act all cool about it. Siamorphe and Tyr had a quarrel when they took different sides in a Tethyr-Calimshan clash. Apparently soured, Siamorphe leaves Tyr's court and goes to Sune in Brightwater. Tyr then sends Helm to plead with Sune, and then the whole awkward marriage thing starts.The thing is the pawn's punishment was minor, a 1000 years is a blink of the eye for a god and he can still interact fully wit his worshippers. To me this would be a perfect thing for Shar to do earlier...she is a master planner after all and works behind the scenes anyway so the imprisonment wouldn't hinder her at all...and if it is a imprisonment that keeps gods out it can be a great benefit to her.So because she didn't act sooner, she's being portrayed weak? Again, WTF? 1385 DR was the right time to act - because 4e is coming. Btw, I think that 1000 years is inspired by the Bible, where God imprisons Satan for 1000 years after Armageddon. Shar is trying to take over the Weave....not destroy it. Also I pointed out before she didn't need a pawn.Shar wants to destroy existence. No, she doesn't need a pawn, but used one anyway because she's your typical mastermind - she doesn't do anything directly.
Mourn 11-30-07, 08:04 PM	1) Mystra being killed by a obessive man( re:Cyric ) who as been stalking her and tormenting her. When she tried to fight back she was told no. She was also killed by Shar (explicitly involved according to Grand History), but I don't see you complaining about this "trend of turning females against eachother to suit the male oppressor" or whatever. Also, she wasn't told she couldn't fight back, she was told that she couldn't abuse her station by deciding who was worthy to use magic (as her position is to ensure magic functions, not to decide who gets to use it). That's a complete mischaracterization of those events. And she is being replaced by a male god. No god will ever replace what Mystra was. Corellon would merely be the god most likely to be worshipped by wizards, as befits an eladrin-style god. 2)Tymora role in the love triangle as a meek woman from the middle ages. Uh, what? Tyr sends Helm to Tymora in order to press his suit for courtship. Cyric convinces Tyr that Helm is over there trying to get some action for himself. Tyr, convinced of this, challenges and kills Helm. Where, exactly, is Tymora portrayed as meek? I merely see her being portrayed as the catalyst that Cyric was able to use to bring down one of his enemies... kinda like how Helen of Troy was merely the excuse used to invade. And their seemingly refusal to promote to greater godhood though all the lore would suggest that she should be. The lore suggests that she shouldn't be, since she and Beshaba are both pieces of the previously more powerful deity. 3) The 7 Sisters are either going to be killed off or serverly weakened in the furure. So what? That's the problem when you're so tightly bound to a goddess that your entire premise is predicated on her existence. Maybe they'll get real jobs now. While Elminster and Drizzt will be left on their own and powerful. Elminster gets injured and flees into hiding in locations unknown to others. His greatest love and patron is now dead. How exactly is he still powerful, and how exactly do you know the details of a book to be published almost a year from now? 4) It seems when female characters die the die quietly with a whimper alot in the novels. I'll point out the death of Rinda. The majority of writers are men, and the majority of them are only comfortable writing from gender viewpoints they understand. Thus, you get more prominent male characters than female characters. 5) Siamorph who I used to view as a strong female noble being reduced to a lesser noble of another god... This is happening to pretty much every god there is, most of which are male. In fact, looking at the numbers, more male gods are going to be demoted than female gods. 6) Shar who is the second most powerful goddess in the world and just as sneaky as Cyric still needed him to do something she has been trying to do since the start of time. And this ignores the fact that Cyric couldn't do it on his own, and was forced to ally with Shar to achieve it. As well as ignoring the fact that Shar somehow made a shadowy duplicate of the Weave all on her own. So can anybody show me anything about the New Realms where women there is a strong female character not acting incompetently? Can I show you something from a book that is 9 or more months away from publication? Nah, I left the time machine in my other pants.
Charles Phipps 11-30-07, 08:29 PM	John's points shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. The fact remains that fantasy has notoriously been hostile towards women due to the origins in chivalric poems and sexism of many of the early authors/pioneers of fantasy. Admittedly, there is a certain sense of condemnation that smacks of modern day smugness. I recall feminist crictisms of Tolkien when it was the series that gave us Eowyn and similiarly of George Lucas when he gave us Princess Leia. Overall, he does make the very good point that there's a few sexist elements in the 4E realms that needs to be addressed. 1. The role of Tymora as a Political Bride: Is such a bizarre and ridiculous idea that it's been commented on by several posters. One cannot think of a less appropriate character for it amongst the pantheons. 2. The Death of Main Female Characters: The Seven Sisters are some of the most recognizable powerful female characters in gaming. Admittedly, a role of feminist icon has been somewhat undercut by their role as cheesecake figures. Though one might argue the women distinctly control their own sexuality in a way that is not dominated by a single male protagionist. Nevertheless, does Sylune count as a woman anymore being a ghost that's exorcised?
Mourn 11-30-07, 08:36 PM	John's points shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. The fact remains that fantasy has notoriously been hostile towards women due to the origins in chivalric poems and sexism of many of the early authors/pioneers of fantasy. Well, one point he doesn't address is that most guys aren't comfortable trying to write women. Most aren't very good at it, so they stick to what they're more familiar with: the motivations and actions of men. Hell, I'm as gender-neutral as they come, but my writing is exclusively from a male perspective since I'm not a woman and am not comfortable trying to portray one, except from the outside. 1. The role of Tymora as a Political Bride: Is such a bizarre and ridiculous idea that it's been commented on by several posters. One cannot think of a less appropriate character for it amongst the pantheons. I don't see the problem. A warrior god wants the goddess of good fortune as his bride, to aid him in his battles against his foes. Sune wanting an alliance, despite her misgivings, makes sense, especially in light of Shar and Cyric killing Mystra even when she has home field advantage. This is a bad time for non-evil gods to show division and weakness, even if Cyric is going to be locked up for the next 1,000 years.
Charles Phipps 11-30-07, 08:37 PM	I do think that some of John's points are rather erroneous though. 1. Cyric as Stalker This is a bizarre assumption to make as while the sexual jealousy element of Cyric's betrayal of Kelemvor and Mystra makes their storyline make more sense, it was always just subtext at best. Frankly, the rivalry between Cyric and Mystra has always been about her attempting to thwart his evil for his own sake. Cyric killed Mystra because she was a threat to him. 2. Tymora I agree here, though I wonder what it says about me that I also find Tyr and Helm being forced into a duel of honor to be male chauvenism at its worst. Neither man I can imagine is motivated by male notions of sexual pride to be forced to kill one another over a lady. 3. The Seven Sisters No arguments here. Khelben's death also ignores me but it's one death versus many. 4. Female Characters Dying Ignomously It is interesting to note that Shandril Sheshair, one of the iconic Realms female heroines and the first with her own book was killed in the last of the Spellfire books. However, male heroes suffer no less gruesome fates. Gwydion (20th Level Paladin) died in the same book as Rinda and at the hands of Malik no less. Likewise, we have Fydor dying rather pitifully and the best part of the Harpers series was the heroic Lander ending up replaced by Ruha. 5. Siamorphe Pardon me, but isn't Siamorphe a big joke in 2E and 3E? She seems to be becoming a more prominent goddess in the new edition. Especially since she's likely to be one of the survivors of the God Shake up. 6. Shar You're suggesting that Shar is lessened because she as a goddess of treachery and secrets used someone as her hatchetman? Besides, shar is a bit of a sexist archetype herself as an incarnation of the evils of feminity. Seduction and Broken Hearts, etc. 7. Eilistraee Interesting to see, though I'm more upset about the Revanancer and V's death. The fact that without the Masked Lord that Drow society once more becomes a society completely based on fan service and fear of female empowerment.
Mourn 11-30-07, 08:55 PM	I agree here, though I wonder what it says about me that I also find Tyr and Helm being forced into a duel of honor to be male chauvenism at its worst. Neither man I can imagine is motivated by male notions of sexual pride to be forced to kill one another over a lady. While you might be able to withhold your anger at your friend stealing your girlfriend, a god whose divinely appointed purpose is to administer justice doesn't necessarily have the luxury, especially when such a relationship might be the key to an alliance that ensures his survival. Remember, these aren't men we're talking about. They're gods, beings of unimaginable power and hubris. The God of Justice can't just sit by while the God of Guardians, the deity he sent to bargain in his stead, steals his bride... that would allow injustice to go unpunished.
Charles Phipps 11-30-07, 09:40 PM	Yeah, for me, I tend to think it didn't really work. Frankly, you could just as easilly argue it wasn't just for Tyr to kill Helm.
Mourn 11-30-07, 10:01 PM	Frankly, you could just as easilly argue it wasn't just for Tyr to kill Helm. If that's the case, then do so. I have no problem presenting my case in a clear, coherent manner in a thread full of opposition opinions, so you should have no problem delivering a counterargument in a thread full of people on your side of the discussion.
Dark Wizard 11-30-07, 10:38 PM	I personally felt like Sune went from lovey-dovey, miss goody-two-shoes goddess to manipulative, imperious she-god in the few passages from GHotR. That was a very drastic change in characterization I think. I felt it casted her in a very negative light. Also in regards to Tyr, it really didn't seem like he did the proper thing to seek justice by investigating the claims of Helm and Tyrmora. He just passed judgement with incomplete evidence. Both he and Helm acted Lawful Stupid. That's my biggest problem with that story, it's just not an interesting story yet it acts like it is and affects the setting accordingly.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 10:39 PM	I don't see the problem. A warrior god wants the goddess of good fortune as his bride, to aid him in his battles against his foes. Sune wanting an alliance, despite her misgivings, makes sense, especially in light of Shar and Cyric killing Mystra even when she has home field advantage. This is a bad time for non-evil gods to show division and weakness, even if Cyric is going to be locked up for the next 1,000 years. Well, according to the GHotR, Sune arranged the match before Cyric killed Mystra. So Mystra's death couldn't have been a part of her reasoning.
Mourn 11-30-07, 10:52 PM	Well, according to the GHotR, Sune arranged the match before Cyric killed Mystra. So Mystra's death couldn't have been a part of her reasoning. But fear of both Cyric and Shar's growing power could have been, especially in light of the fact that the events of Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land, and Anauroch: Empire of Shade all show huge gains made by the evil powers (Shar, in particular benefits), and the reduction of Mystra's power (through the tearing of the weave, and Elminster's flight into hiding). Dark times are fast approaching, and even gods need to be prepared.
Charles Phipps 11-30-07, 11:49 PM	I don't even see how it's manipulative. Sune tries to get a CG goddess in Tyr's Realm to make things more balanced and maybe get The Triad to lighten up. I reject any of the ulterior motives that people ascribe to her.
Mourn 11-30-07, 11:51 PM	I don't even see how it's manipulative. Sune tries to get a CG goddess in Tyr's Realm to make things more balanced and maybe get The Triad to lighten up. I reject any of the ulterior motives that people ascribe to her. Maybe she even believed that the fickled goddess of luck could love the maimed, blind god of justice.
Charles Phipps 11-30-07, 11:57 PM	Maybe she even believed that the fickled goddess of luck could love the maimed, blind god of justice. Opposites can attract. Of course, Tyr has a horde of Valkyries to choose from. ;-)
GothicDan 11-30-07, 11:57 PM	The Valkyries were the purview of Frigga/Freya, and to a lesser extent, Odin. Tyr was barely even a divine blip among the Aesir. :)
Mourn 12-01-07, 12:18 AM	Tyr was barely even a divine blip among the Aesir. :) Aesir are punks. They ignore the guy, up until they need a dog-sitter, then don't even apologize when he loses a hand. On second thoughts, maybe I see the reason he left Earth... :P I'm much more a Vanir type of guy, but then I just have a thing for them fertility goddesses...
GothicDan 12-01-07, 12:25 AM	I'm more of a Loki/Odin fan, myself. :) Though I bet Frey was pretty hot.
Mula 12-01-07, 12:31 AM	Somehow I doubt that... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd4/Freya_p176.jpg :rofl:
GothicDan 12-01-07, 12:37 AM	That's the wrong deity. But his depiction in that book isn't very good looking. But then again, how many good looking guys ARE depicted in D&D material?
Mula 12-01-07, 12:48 AM	Oh yeah, Frey(r), Frey(j)a... But that pic is too hilarious not to post.
Dark Wizard 12-01-07, 12:51 AM	Whatever happened to divine hubris and incompetence. :rolleyes:
Mula 12-01-07, 12:53 AM	Oh. My. God. This is Frey. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd4/Frey_p175.jpg :drool: :rofl:
GothicDan 12-01-07, 01:00 AM	See my point? No hot guys allowed in D&D.
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 01:08 AM	-I'm not going to go back a page, and see how this conversation came about...
Mourn 12-01-07, 01:08 AM	See my point? No hot guys allowed in D&D. You were all sweaty and bothered for him a couple posts ago! You know you want to take a mustache ride... :P
Mourn 12-01-07, 01:09 AM	Oh. My. God. This is Frey. :drool: :rofl: The best part is that a Vanir god is wearing a Christian symbol.
Mourn 12-01-07, 01:10 AM	-I'm not going to go back a page, and see how this conversation came about... Serious discussion about Tyr, his Nordic versus Realms origin, then it just changed because we all decided we'd rather joke around, and that seems to be making everyone breathe a little easier.
GothicDan 12-01-07, 01:12 AM	It reaffirms one of my tenants in life: you should never have too much respect for something that you can't joke around about it. ;)
Mourn 12-01-07, 01:14 AM	It reaffirms one of my tenants in life: you should never have too much respect for something that you can't joke around about it. ;) Exactly. Humor is the best way to deal with tragedy. I remember when my grandfather died, and I felt a little awkward around my grandmother, up until she joked about how his death is going to keep her curtains from smelling like smoke for all eternity.
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 01:20 AM	Serious discussion about Tyr, his Nordic versus Realms origin, then it just changed because we all decided we'd rather joke around, and that seems to be making everyone breathe a little easier. -Gotcha. That's not that bad.
Charles Phipps 12-01-07, 01:49 AM	Counterpoint, that's a Sword not a Cross on his chest. Ironically, I do have the Sword in that exact pose as Torm's symbol just for the Christian paralells.
Mula 12-01-07, 02:10 AM	It reaffirms one of my tenants in life: you should never have too much respect for something that you can't joke around about it. ;) Yeah, I agree. There are a FEW things I find too horrible that it's hard to imagine making jokes about them. I was browsing through news topics the other day and stumbled upon something so disturbing that it's just... Infants being raped. Yeah, it's so horrible that I felt that I had to put spoiler tags.
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 02:15 AM	Infants being raped. Yeah, it's so horrible that I felt that I had to put spoiler tags. -Sadly, stuff like that is all too common.
MarkusTay63 12-01-07, 02:20 AM	That's the wrong deity.They're both dudes, right? And ugly dudes to boot... Why were gods in 1e so frickin' hot, and they just keep getting uglier and uglier. Frey looks like a guy I went to school with - no joke.
Mula 12-01-07, 02:24 AM	Markus, luckily, there are pics of good looking deities in 3e books. Check out Isis from Deities & Demigods, for example. Rebecca Guay really knows how to draw beautiful people. :)
Dark Wizard 12-01-07, 02:26 AM	Looks like the girl I kept mistaking in college for one of my roommate's buddies (yeah, a guy). Yup, those were awkward times. to this day, he's one of the few we all agree who has seen his female doppleganger.
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 02:31 AM	Markus, luckily, there are pics of good looking deities in 3e books. Check out Isis from Deities & Demigods, for example. Rebecca Guay really knows how to draw beautiful people. :) -Yes. Most of the artwork in most of the 3e books are pretty good, I think.
Dark Wizard 12-01-07, 02:35 AM	Aside from a few artists, the WoW fanart usually beats most D&D book art in my opinion. Then there are the artists who post on CGTalk, that just blows most D&D art out of the water, and we're not even talking published sources for the most part. Even some of the semi-professionals. Of course there is art by working artists. (Looking at a beautiful piece the artist did for the Magic CCG.) I guess we need fewer pieces of high quality stuff and less filler.
MarkusTay63 12-01-07, 02:44 AM	But you got to admit, the 1e Deities & Demigods was ahead of its time - the book's got more naked breats then a Papparazzi's portfolio. :D Of course, the cover of the 1e Monster Manual still gives me a giggle - there truly is no low-end to the badness extreme.
Mourn 12-01-07, 04:14 AM	Aside from a few artists, the WoW fanart usually beats most D&D book art in my opinion. Agreed. I like the highly stylized look of a lot of WoW art, especially when it's takes on classic archetypes, like heroic knights. Here's an example. http://www.wowwiki.com/images/7/79/Lord_Anduin_Lothar.jpg
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 04:15 PM	Wow, who casted Derail Thread?
Storm_Silverhand 12-01-07, 04:38 PM	Heya, While you might be able to withhold your anger at your friend stealing your girlfriend, a god whose divinely appointed purpose is to administer justice doesn't necessarily have the luxury, especially when such a relationship might be the key to an alliance that ensures his survival. Remember, these aren't men we're talking about. They're gods, beings of unimaginable power and hubris. The God of Justice can't just sit by while the God of Guardians, the deity he sent to bargain in his stead, steals his bride... that would allow injustice to go unpunished. There's one problem here. First of all, we don't know what really happened. Tymora doesn't strike me as someone who would have more than a passing fancy for either deity (and even then she'd probably only express it by playing a practical joke or two on them, they're just too incompatible for anything long term) - they're too stuck up and strict, and if she married one they would probably be cuckolded a short time later... Which would end up with Tyr probably trying to kill her or otherwise punish her, and I'm not sure what Helm would do in that case. There's no way that Tymora's nature is going to change, since it's just as fundamental a thing as the way Tyr and Helm are. It looks, just from the text in aGHotR, like Tyr jumped to conclusions, attacked Helm and killed him... And if this is actually the case, it's very out of character for him. Secondly, if there really was something there between Tymora and Helm, Tyr's reaction shows exactly how bad an idea it was to arrange for her to marry him in the first place. If Helm gets killed, who else would if Tymora strays again? Will we see an angry rampage of Tyr through the pantheon, killing any male deity who so much as looks at her? (And since we're talking gods here, any female deity who so much as looks at her as well.) The other deity in particular we should be concerned about in this situation is the halfling deity Brandobaris, who has an on again off again relationship with Tymora. Personally, I just don't see Tymora agreeing to marry Tyr in the first place, knowing what she knows about him. It's completely out of character for her (in that I believe it would be cruel of her to marry him, when she knows what he'd probably expect in a marriage and be unable to meet those expectations), and ignores her past. Even Sune would know that there was no way it would have worked, so I have to question why she thought it would help anything. Someone was just not thinking the situation through. But we're stuck with it now.
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 04:46 PM	She was also killed by Shar (explicitly involved according to Grand History), but I don't see you complaining about this "trend of turning females against eachother to suit the male oppressor" or whatever. Actualy we don't have a clue about Shar's involment in the killing...it could be that Cyric just used the Shadow Weave and Shar okayed it.... Also, she wasn't told she couldn't fight back, she was told that she couldn't abuse her station by deciding who was worthy to use magic (as her position is to ensure magic functions, not to decide who gets to use it). That's a complete mischaracterization of those events. Oh and I guess somehow it is ok for Cyric to unfairly use his position as the god of murder to murder her too? No god will ever replace what Mystra was. Corellon would merely be the god most likely to be worshipped by wizards, as befits an eladrin-style god. Sure but theyt sould havce done what they wanted ands leave Mystra intacted...instead they decided to do it this way. Uh, what? Tyr sends Helm to Tymora in order to press his suit for courtship. Cyric convinces Tyr that Helm is over there trying to get some action for himself. Tyr, convinced of this, challenges and kills Helm. Yeah the whole love triangle thing is dumb...also it is not known of Cyric involvement it is just suspected. Where, exactly, is Tymora portrayed as meek? I merely see her being portrayed as the catalyst that Cyric was able to use to bring down one of his enemies... kinda like how Helen of Troy was merely the excuse used to invade. So why was she portray so meekly? She could have stopped the duel easily enough... The lore suggests that she shouldn't be, since she and Beshaba are both pieces of the previously more powerful deity. ? So neither can growe? Also she is already more powerful then Besheba. Personaly I saw the split as making them sisters...both can grow independent of each other...there as been nothing I am aware of in lore that suggests that their power is linked and balanced So what? That's the problem when you're so tightly bound to a goddess that your entire premise is predicated on her existence. Maybe they'll get real jobs now. That is very odd...they do have real jobs that they are going to loose because for some reason the designers view theire impact on the Realms as too big. Elminster gets injured and flees into hiding in locations unknown to others. His greatest love and patron is now dead. How exactly is he still powerful, and how exactly do you know the details of a book to be published almost a year from now? They said that Elminster is going to be around...they didn't say he will be depowered as the 7 Sisters who will survive. True it is a prediction but it isn't that outlandish. The majority of writers are men, and the majority of them are only comfortable writing from gender viewpoints they understand. Thus, you get more prominent male characters than female characters. Um...actualy most of the female characters they are killing off are well written? Also maybe they should seek out better writers instead of just giving up. Also not all characters have to appear in novels... This is happening to pretty much every god there is, most of which are male. In fact, looking at the numbers, more male gods are going to be demoted than female gods. Really how can you know what is in a book that hasn't been released yet? And this ignores the fact that Cyric couldn't do it on his own, and was forced to ally with Shar to achieve it. As well as ignoring the fact that Shar somehow made a shadowy duplicate of the Weave all on her own. 1) Shar didn't make the Shadow Weave...it was always there she find it. Yes I know this contradicts previous lore but it is what is canon now. 2)Again we don't know what alliances was made all we know is that Cyric recieved aid from Shar...it might have been even unwilling considering what happened to her long range plans of this Master Planner. 3) Lets go back to the Shadow Weave..Shar did find it...seized control of it and has been using it to slowy corrupt and take over the Weave...a awesome Master villian plan...so why the sudden to sending Cyric(if she really did) to just kill Mystra and destroy eons of work. That according you was working very well? So if she is such a master planner... Why did she abandon a long range plan that would have gotten her what she wanted for a plan for immediate result? I mean she is patience. And I am sorry gods should have a longer view then elves. Why would she allow Cyric get what she wants? I mean heck Cyric has killed no other god without major help from another diety...yet he gets all the power...so why would Shar think this would be different? Sorry if you want me to respect Shar as a master planner then I would have to say that her aid to Cyric was not that involved. Can I show you something from a book that is 9 or more months away from publication? Nah, I left the time machine in my other pants. That is ok most of this is events that has happend in published books already or (to me) consistent and logical outgrowths of what has happened. I mean like I said this is mostly perception...like the fact the Mystra/the 7 Sisters/ all those powerful NPCs and all that lore provides a barrier for entery into the Realms for new comes.
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 05:10 PM	I do think that some of John's points are rather erroneous though. That is too be expected I suppose...:rolleyes: :D ;) :P 1. Cyric as Stalker This is a bizarre assumption to make as while the sexual jealousy element of Cyric's betrayal of Kelemvor and Mystra makes their storyline make more sense, it was always just subtext at best. Frankly, the rivalry between Cyric and Mystra has always been about her attempting to thwart his evil for his own sake. Cyric killed Mystra because she was a threat to him. Ok this is how I precieved it. I think there is some support for this view. We could go back and forth and argue it...so I'll say yes you might be right be right if you would agree that people who have had a stalker incident in their lives(like I have) could see it the way I do? Also I'll point out of the two gods he has ploted an actualy killed have been female; Leira and Mystra. Bhaal was a more "Oh crap he is attacking me" moment. 2. Tymora I agree here, though I wonder what it says about me that I also find Tyr and Helm being forced into a duel of honor to be male chauvenism at its worst. Neither man I can imagine is motivated by male notions of sexual pride to be forced to kill one another over a lady. The whole thing was just badly thought out...I'll agree that all character acted like moronic three year olds. So yeas both male and female characters were treated badly here... 3. The Seven Sisters No arguments here. Khelben's death also ignores me but it's one death versus many. I didn't ignore it...but it is a death that might have happened anyway.... 4. Female Characters Dying Ignomously It is interesting to note that Shandril Sheshair, one of the iconic Realms female heroines and the first with her own book was killed in the last of the Spellfire books. However, male heroes suffer no less gruesome fates. Gwydion (20th Level Paladin) died in the same book as Rinda and at the hands of Malik no less. Likewise, we have Fydor dying rather pitifully and the best part of the Harpers series was the heroic Lander ending up replaced by Ruha. True but has any female character has died heroicaly like Khelban did? 5. Siamorphe Pardon me, but isn't Siamorphe a big joke in 2E and 3E? She seems to be becoming a more prominent goddess in the new edition. Especially since she's likely to be one of the survivors of the God Shake up. This is a very funny position from someone who get annoyed when people say the same thing about Cyric. Anyway I really don't consider the new Saint level of gods surviveing...heck that might be the fate of all the gods that do die... 6. Shar You're suggesting that Shar is lessened because she as a goddess of treachery and secrets used someone as her hatchetman? Besides, shar is a bit of a sexist archetype herself as an incarnation of the evils of feminity. Seduction and Broken Hearts, etc. I pointed out why her using Cyric as a 'hachet man' was just dumb....in the last post. 7. Eilistraee Interesting to see, though I'm more upset about the Revanancer and V's death. The fact that without the Masked Lord that Drow society once more becomes a society completely based on fan service and fear of female empowerment. As I said I perfer that they remain separate...but it is unlikely. But it is funny to note that every other time a god(which is interesting because I believe this is the 1st time a female goddess has killed another god atleast a male god...though I might be wrong.) they have absorbed that gods portfolio and power...without being corrupted...but Eilistraee is being corrupted by this. Why?
GothicDan 12-01-07, 05:33 PM	Shar killed both Eshowdow and Ibrandul.
Meldread 12-01-07, 05:34 PM	I am still rolling my eyes at the original presumptions made in this thread. A few things. In regard to the whole Tymora, Tyr and Helm affair all we have is a few sentences - a blurb. We don't know what happened, only the outcome. Possible Scenario: Sune and Tymora see Shar making big gains. They get freaked out, and decided to put a plan into action. They want to be prepared for whatever comes their way. They manage to persuade Siamorphe over to Brightwater, knowing that it would upset the balance of the planes. When this happens, and Tyr gets angry, Sune just happens to "propose" Tymora as a bride for Tyr. Both of the ladies would have, of course, worked this out ahead of time. Tyr then sends Helm over to seal the deal, and Tymora - who is well known for playing practical jokes on both Helm and Tyr - pretends that she's really in love with Helm. Being who he is he does not catch onto the joke, and takes it seriously... he also realizes that deep down he does in fact love Tymora. Helm then goes to Tyr and basically tells the truth. "Tymora loves me. I love her. We want to be together. You can't have her." Tyr being who he is contests this showing the marriage contract signed by Tymora and Sune. Helm basically says, "Look, if you want her, you're going to have to fight me." Tyr is forced to fight him as a god of justice. Tyr is nearly victorious in the battle and asks for Helm to submit, but Helm refuses saying that he would have to kill him. That is exactly what Helm would do, as he would feel that he is guarding and protecting the woman he loves. So it comes down to this: One of them has to die. Since Helm refuses to submit Tyr kills him. When news of this reaches Tymora she becomes heartbroken. Why? Because she's responsible. Her joke got out of hand and resulted in the death of Helm, something she never intended. So she slinks off with Tyr as promised, out of guilt, obligation (she did promise to marry the man after all) and other things. Tymora and Sune never have any illusions that the marriage between Tymora and Tyr is going to be anything long lasting. However, what is important to remember is that they both are VERY CHAOTIC Goddesses. They have absolutely no problem with that. They are the type of women who would prefer an open marriage, with multiple partners, because they enjoy different experiences. With Tymora on the inside it becomes easier for her and Sune to manipulate the House of the Triad... but instead it ends up falling apart with Ilmater moving to Brightwater in disgust and anger. ---- I would then probably add to this, based on the new information. After people begin to find out what happened there is a lot of anger at Tyr for his actions. No one understands the situation. Some of his own worshipers abandon him, most in favor of Torm. At the same time Ilmater abandons Tyr, ending the Triad. Helm's followers also turn to Torm. After Cyric kills Mystra Tyr seeks him out, hoping to reclaim his lost honor from slaying Helm. However, during the battle he is killed. Cyric has no need for justice so it ends up passing down to Torm. This is all enough to elevate Torm to a Greater Deity. Tymora then heads back off to Brightwater. ---- As for John's comments... Well, let's look at things this way. The Realm's as a whole is a lot more liberal than a lot of modern countries, despite the fact that it is pseudo-middle ages in theme. I can think of only one male dominated society off the top of my head, that being Mulhorand, but WotC has changed that in 3rd Edition. Cormyr has a slight male bend, but it's current Regent is female. With a 100 year time jump, I wouldn't be shocked if Cormyr would be led by a Queen. As a whole the Realm's is a very liberal and empowering place for women, and in fact more often than not, if there is a sex that is openly suppressed it is men. A case in point is the entire race of Drow. With Vhaeraun dead, males have two options: Live under dominating females as little more than sperm-donors or worship slime. That is pretty much it. To Lolth men are slime, so it's not like she'd notice overly much. As a Drow male you might find a place within the new church of the Masked Lady, but you shouldn't expect too much. You are, after all, a male. Find a society that treats its females like Drow treat their males. I challenge you to do that. When you do, then you can call things even. Until then, your claims of "OMG SEXISM!" Is nothing but hot air. Especially when you haven't taken into consideration who will be replacing the females being slain, which will likely be other females.
GothicDan 12-01-07, 05:38 PM	While I don't feel that John's original point is very poignant, I also think it incredibly fallacious to use the Drow as a counter-example. The Drow were matriarchal and sadistic before FR ever got ahold of them, and they're effectively one culture out dozens.
Charles Phipps 12-01-07, 05:55 PM	quote]Also I'll point out of the two gods he has ploted an actualy killed have been female; Leira and Mystra. Bhaal was a more "Oh crap he is attacking me" moment.[/quote] He also plotted and actively killed Helm. Tiamat also killed Gilgeam plus Shar killed two male gods. True but has any female character has died heroicaly like Khelban did? Tanalasta. This is a very funny position from someone who get annoyed when people say the same thing about Cyric. Siamorphe is sort of the odd goddess out. In 2E, she's the Goddess of Nobles in Waterdeep and pretty much nowhere else. I pointed out why her using Cyric as a 'hachet man' was just dumb....in the last post. I know and I disagree, mostly because a Cyric as Shar's slave alliance just works thematically. They have absorbed that gods portfolio and power...without being corrupted...but Eilistraee is being corrupted by this. Why? Uhh, isn't being corrupted by an absorbed portfolio the plotline of Lolth's Champion? But I agree with more than you don't.
Meldread 12-01-07, 05:56 PM	I don't think it's fallacious, but I do think it's ridiculous. The point I am making is this. The Forgotten Realm's is a pseudo-Middle Ages setting. In the real world middle ages females were little more than a uterus with legs. In FR they are extremely liberated, even moreso than in MOST modern world countries. Killing off female character's is not sexism. Claiming that it is ridiculous. If someone wants to see an example of female Sexism they can run over and read a Gor book. Markus mentioned them, I've heard about them as well. That'll show them real sexism. Or they could simply look at how Drow treat men, which is - yes - sexism. WotC has gone out of their way to avoid such claims, and I don't believe that this is just some innocent thread. I could make Jesus Christ look bad in the "right light" but that doesn't necessarily make it true. I could make anything look bad in the "right light". What John has done is deliberately distort what has happened to suit his own goals, which is something that I find offensive because it debases and demeans real and actual sexism. How many people ever heard of the story about the little boy who cried wolf? This is the equivalent of that. Every time someone cries sexism with little to no reason, with the sole intent of making the opposing party look bad, they steal from real claims. When people actually hear a legitimate claim they roll their eyes because they've become desensitize to the whole notion.
msatran 12-01-07, 06:02 PM	Well, let's look at this for a second. Eowshadow and Ilbrandul are evil gods. So when a MALE god kills an evil god (Torm), he gets ressurrected. When a FEMALE god kills an evil god they get corrupted? This is complete BS. I would rather eat glass than deal with this stuff sometimes. I'm very aggravated.
Charles Phipps 12-01-07, 06:07 PM	So when a MALE god kills an evil god (Torm), he gets ressurrected. When a FEMALE god kills an evil god they get corrupted? Is she being corrupted? All I've seen evidence so far is that she's finally becoming less sexist.
Meldread 12-01-07, 06:17 PM	Eowshadow and Ilbrandul are evil gods. Wrong. Ibrandul was Chaotic Neutral. So when a MALE god kills an evil god (Torm), he gets ressurrected. When a FEMALE god kills an evil god they get corrupted? Torm got resurrected but so did Bane. Eilistraee CHOSE to absorb the essence of her brother, and as a result she has taken on some of his personality traits and his portfolios. By taking the portfolio's she has altered who she is - it had nothing to do with him being male or evil. If Lathander killed Shar and then decided to absorb some of her portfolios, do you not think it would RADICALLY alter who he was? What if Bane killed Talos, and took his portfolios, would that not alter who he was? It had nothing to do with Vhaeraun being male or evil and everything to do with his portfolios.
GothicDan 12-01-07, 07:00 PM	I meant to say that they are Male gods, anyway. Oops.
Fire_Wraith 12-01-07, 07:02 PM	It's also worth noting that Drow society falls into the "strong female = evil" category. While, again, I don't believe this is the deliberate intent here, it has been a deliberate portrayal in the past, in human history, when it comes to writing, storytelling, et cetera. It's not a trend I think that would serve the Realms well (or WotC for that matter) to be reinforcing, even if only accidentally. Yes, not everyone may see these themes when they look at it. To some, a cigar is just a cigar. But just because someone want to ignore it, doesn't mean it's not there, and that it's not true for some other people. This is the case with workplace harassment, and any number of other things. (And speaking of which, 'but it wasn't meant that way' ultimately isn't a defense in those sorts of cases. When pointed out as a problem, the person pretty much has to stop whatever offending behavior it is, or face negative action.) ....so, agree or not, what does this mean Wizards and the designers ought to do? This is probably the better question than arguing nuances all day long. 1) Ensure that there are strong, positive female characters that are heroes in their own right - not mere sidekicks. This is just smart business anyway, because you want characters that female gamers (and prospective gamers) will look to and say 'that's the sort of role I want to play.' 2) Since they're committed to the overall framework of these changes, or at least the outcomes, perhaps they can at least consider altering how these things are happening, so that these events will: a) Make more sense in terms of internal or past consistency b) Not come of as nearly so potentially offensive in the terms that John and Stigger have described Much of this could be accomplished within the context of the detailed, actual story when it comes out, as opposed to the 'bare bones brief outline' which we received in GHotR. 3) Ameliorating some of the aspects by keeping the original intent, but making changes down the line. For instance, if the desire was to eliminate Mystra, the all-powerful goddess of magic, forever, then do so - but Mystra/Midnight as a character is another matter entirely, and if her tale need not end there, even if WotC never intends to do anything more with it, if that makes any sense. All it takes is a "rumors of her reincarnation/rebirth/etc" line interjected somewhere in the book, as an open adventure hook for DMs to use if they so desire. Anyway, just a couple of thoughts.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 07:08 PM	But fear of both Cyric and Shar's growing power could have been, especially in light of the fact that the events of Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land, and Anauroch: Empire of Shade all show huge gains made by the evil powers (Shar, in particular benefits), and the reduction of Mystra's power (through the tearing of the weave, and Elminster's flight into hiding). Dark times are fast approaching, and even gods need to be prepared. But then you still have the problem of explaining why marriage is a necessary part of such preparation. Even if that is the case (and I wouldn't accept offhand that it would be), the logical conclusion is that all the non-evil gods would be picking partners and getting hitched (or better yet, having a huge group marriage, which according to Ed Greenwood is actually not taboo in the Realms), not just Tyr and Tymora. The bottom line is that the only motivation we know for sure that Sune and Tyr had for this marriage was to "balance the planes", which itself was not explained--after all, an intermediate deity (Tymora) was being set to replace a far less powerful demideity (Siamorphe). Anything beyond that is speculation.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 07:12 PM	They're both dudes, right? And ugly dudes to boot... Why were gods in 1e so frickin' hot, and they just keep getting uglier and uglier. Frey looks like a guy I went to school with - no joke. *laughs at the fugly god pictures* :rofl:
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 07:23 PM	Shar killed both Eshowdow and Ibrandul. You are right...So maybe Shar is WotC special girl?
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 07:26 PM	Wrong. Ibrandul was Chaotic Neutral. Torm got resurrected but so did Bane. Eilistraee CHOSE to absorb the essence of her brother, and as a result she has taken on some of his personality traits and his portfolios. By taking the portfolio's she has altered who she is - it had nothing to do with him being male or evil. If Lathander killed Shar and then decided to absorb some of her portfolios, do you not think it would RADICALLY alter who he was? What if Bane killed Talos, and took his portfolios, would that not alter who he was? It had nothing to do with Vhaeraun being male or evil and everything to do with his portfolios. Did it radicaly alter Finders(who was a mortal at the time) when he killed and absorbed Moender? No it didn't. Did it radicaly alter Cyric when he killed Leira...or Mystra...probably not. Also Torm killed Bane...mmm...maybe the former servant got Ambition...(sorry side thought) Though this might have to more with the FR design team not wanting to come up with a consistent model to do this with.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 07:27 PM	Is she being corrupted? All I've seen evidence so far is that she's finally becoming less sexist. Eilistraee seems more favorably inclined towards assassination than she previously did, which suggests that absorbing her brother's former portfolio and worshippers did indeed "stain" her.
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 07:28 PM	Is she being corrupted? All I've seen evidence so far is that she's finally becoming less sexist. How is she sexist to start with? There is nothing in her doctrine that says men must be subjugated? There is nothing at all...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 07:29 PM	Hos is she sexist to start with? There is nothing in her doctrine that says men must be subjugated? There is nothing at all... I agree with that too.
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 07:33 PM	@Meldread: Yup the way to deal with these issues is to shut the hell up about them...:rolleyes: That worked well back in the 50's. All I am talking about here is perception. Every bit of new released about the New Realms have the old stories around females being ended in a very bloody way....sorry I don't get why? Show me of a victory for a good female NPC...in what they have released about ther New Realms...
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 07:36 PM	I am still rolling my eyes at the original presumptions made in this thread. A few things. In regard to the whole Tymora, Tyr and Helm affair all we have is a few sentences - a blurb. We don't know what happened, only the outcome. Possible Scenario: Sune and Tymora see Shar making big gains. They get freaked out, and decided to put a plan into action. They want to be prepared for whatever comes their way. They manage to persuade Siamorphe over to Brightwater, knowing that it would upset the balance of the planes. When this happens, and Tyr gets angry, Sune just happens to "propose" Tymora as a bride for Tyr. Both of the ladies would have, of course, worked this out ahead of time. Tyr then sends Helm over to seal the deal, and Tymora - who is well known for playing practical jokes on both Helm and Tyr - pretends that she's really in love with Helm. Being who he is he does not catch onto the joke, and takes it seriously... he also realizes that deep down he does in fact love Tymora. Helm then goes to Tyr and basically tells the truth. "Tymora loves me. I love her. We want to be together. You can't have her." Tyr being who he is contests this showing the marriage contract signed by Tymora and Sune. Helm basically says, "Look, if you want her, you're going to have to fight me." Tyr is forced to fight him as a god of justice. Tyr is nearly victorious in the battle and asks for Helm to submit, but Helm refuses saying that he would have to kill him. That is exactly what Helm would do, as he would feel that he is guarding and protecting the woman he loves. So it comes down to this: One of them has to die. Since Helm refuses to submit Tyr kills him. When news of this reaches Tymora she becomes heartbroken. Why? Because she's responsible. Her joke got out of hand and resulted in the death of Helm, something she never intended. So she slinks off with Tyr as promised, out of guilt, obligation (she did promise to marry the man after all) and other things. Tymora and Sune never have any illusions that the marriage between Tymora and Tyr is going to be anything long lasting. However, what is important to remember is that they both are VERY CHAOTIC Goddesses. They have absolutely no problem with that. They are the type of women who would prefer an open marriage, with multiple partners, because they enjoy different experiences. With Tymora on the inside it becomes easier for her and Sune to manipulate the House of the Triad... but instead it ends up falling apart with Ilmater moving to Brightwater in disgust and anger. ---- I would then probably add to this, based on the new information. After people begin to find out what happened there is a lot of anger at Tyr for his actions. No one understands the situation. Some of his own worshipers abandon him, most in favor of Torm. At the same time Ilmater abandons Tyr, ending the Triad. Helm's followers also turn to Torm. After Cyric kills Mystra Tyr seeks him out, hoping to reclaim his lost honor from slaying Helm. However, during the battle he is killed. Cyric has no need for justice so it ends up passing down to Torm. This is all enough to elevate Torm to a Greater Deity. Tymora then heads back off to Brightwater. ---- That would be great if it didn't run completely countered to what has been stated in that blurp....
johnkretzer 12-01-07, 07:44 PM	He also plotted and actively killed Helm. You only have a hint that he was involved in that...'storyline'. It could have been, and I say most likely...was somebody else. I mean for once I hope that they do leave it a mystery...also he was plotting to disrupt not kill anyone...he just got lucky. Though I should point he diden't directly kill Helm...he set up somebody else to do it...there is a difference. Tanalasta. Who? Sorry need more background here. Siamorphe is sort of the odd goddess out. In 2E, she's the Goddess of Nobles in Waterdeep and pretty much nowhere else. Primary in waterdeep and a little in The North, and she has been sprerading and growing... I know and I disagree, mostly because a Cyric as Shar's slave alliance just works thematically.Interesting would you care to expand on this? Interesting would care to expend on this slaver alliance thing? Uhh, isn't being corrupted by an absorbed portfolio the plotline of Lolth's Champion? But I agree with more than you don't. More infomation please?
Charles Phipps 12-01-07, 07:44 PM	Hos is she sexist to start with? There is nothing in her doctrine that says men must be subjugated? There is nothing at all... Uhhh, men can't be priests and it's a theocracy. So, basically, men just stand in the corner and do what their told in Eli-land.
Stigger 12-01-07, 07:53 PM	Tanalasta was the eldest daughter of Azoun IV and the heir to the throne of Cormyr, who died just after giving birth to her child, who becomes Azoun V. Don't forget that Siamorphe was gaining a lot of ground in Tethyr during the waning days of 2e.
Charles Phipps 12-01-07, 08:07 PM	Tanalasta actually started in more adventures than the Steel Regent Alusair. She was a Mage, Cleric, and was the Star of the Cormyr books in my opinion. She was one of my favorite heroines in FR.
Meldread 12-01-07, 08:10 PM	Did it radicaly alter Finders(who was a mortal at the time) when he killed and absorbed Moender? No it didn't. Because Finder altered Moander's portfolios. Additionally, he didn't take up a bulk of Meander’s worshipers (did he even take up any of them?) Ultimately, Finder is nothing like Moander, but then again his portfolios are completely different from Moander's. Did it radicaly alter Cyric when he killed Leira...or Mystra...probably not. Who knows what happened to Cyric after he killed Mystra? However, Mystra was only the goddess of magic and the Weave. It doesn't say that Cyric got those portfolios, but even if he did they were neutral portfolios, just like illusions. Leira was Chaotic Neutral. Also Torm killed Bane...mmm...maybe the former servant got Ambition...(sorry side thought) I am aware of that, and Bane is also resurrected. Neither deity took the worshipers or the portfolios of the other. Why would they change? Though this might have to more with the FR design team not wanting to come up with a consistent model to do this with. Or, it might have something to do with people grasping at straws. Yup the way to deal with these issues is to shut the hell up about them... That worked well back in the 50's. No, the way to deal with the issues is to attack them. Not invent them in order to attack WotC, which is what you are doing. It is the equivalent of calling a politician you hate a Nazi or a fascist. It only makes real fascists seem less evil by comparison. All I am talking about here is perception. Every bit of new released about the New Realms have the old stories around females being ended in a very bloody way....sorry I don't get why? Show me of a victory for a good female NPC...in what they have released about ther New Realms... And who is not suffering in the new FR? Seriously, think about it. They are making the setting darker and EVERYONE is suffering. Do you think Elminster got a free pass just because he is left alive? What type of hell do you think he went through? What about Drizzt? He does not sound all happy roses and sunshine in the Orc King prologue. If you want a victory: Alusair Obarskyr has obviously done something right because Cormyr is still around. While she most likely will not be alive in 4E FR (being a human and all) her actions no doubt ensured that Cormyr still exists. That would be great if it didn't run completely countered to what has been stated in that blurp.... It does not run counter to the blurb, but the fact remains: it is a blurb and nothing more. You cannot draw conclusions from it other than to say X happened. You do not know the motivations behind why it happened or the private thoughts of those involved. You do not even know about extenuating circumstances or any of that stuff. It could make perfect sense if actually elaborated. But the fact of the matter is, this entire thread is nothing more than a vague attempt to attack WotC by painting them as women-haters. When they transform FR into Gor then you might have something, but until then its pretty laughable considering they have gone out of their way to do exactly the opposite. A good case in point is Mulhorand that is changing all of its laws to become accepting toward females. They still keep slaves, and there is nothing wrong with that (to them), but they suddenly felt that their laws dealing with women were unjust? Which is worse and which is less unjust? Enslaving people against their will or property inheritance? Finally, considering we do not know who will rise to take the fallens place, I believe it is safe to say that many strong (and primarily good aligned) females will rise to take the place of the old.
Charles Phipps 12-01-07, 08:15 PM	It only makes real fascists seem less evil by comparison. Just because he's making skeptical claims about sexism in FR4E, doesn't mean that this is accurate. That's going way too far. You only have a hint that he was involved in that...'storyline'. It could have been, and I say most likely...was somebody else. I mean for once I hope that they do leave it a mystery...also he was plotting to disrupt not kill anyone...he just got lucky. Though I should point he diden't directly kill Helm...he set up somebody else to do it...there is a difference. Actually, I think Richard Baker has pretty much outright stated that Cyric was at fault and that Cyric intended to kill Helm all along.
Stigger 12-01-07, 08:19 PM	No, the way to deal with the issues is to attack them. Not invent them in order to attack WotC, which is what you are doing. It is the equivalent of calling a politician you hate a Nazi or a fascist. It only makes real fascists seem less evil by comparison. It's a legitimate concern, were it not Astrid's wouldn't even exist, which many of the female gamers I know of around here are seeing. Just because you don't see it, or agree with it, does not mean that the perception was "invented" simply out of some sense of malice. You're doing a lot of disservice in that statement, and might want to rethink it a bit.
Meldread 12-01-07, 08:28 PM	Just because he's making skeptical claims about sexism in FR4E, doesn't mean that this is accurate. I think skeptical is putting it mildly, it's more dubious than skeptical.
Stigger 12-01-07, 08:34 PM	I wonder if that could be any more insulting to John and his motives... and I have to admit I find it incredibly insulting to the women I know who share the sentiment.
Meldread 12-01-07, 08:47 PM	This thread does a very clear disservice to women by perpetuating the stereotype that any who cry sexism are making it up. Mystra being killed by a obessive man( re:Cyric ) who as been stalking her and tormenting her. When she tried to fight back she was told no. That isn't stretching it? The others were less obvious, but that really shot out at me. The rest were more subtly twisted, mostly through directly ignoring everything else happening in the setting.
ORC_Tuhteth 12-01-07, 09:16 PM	This thread seems to have become too confrontational. As such, I'm closing it to prevent it from degenerating to the point of open flaming -- feel free to revisit the topic in a new thread in the future, but wait at least 48 hours before doing so.