Spellfire... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spellfire... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ghorticus
01-17-04, 03:42 AM Ok, here's my little dilemma:

One of my players REALLY wants to be a spellfire wielder in my brand new Forgotten Realms campaign. Normally I'd have no problem with allowing it in my "uber powerful characters" game, but this time around I'm shooting for low powered characters, i.e. 25-point buy. Would it be unbalancing and unfair to the other players to allow this player to be a spellfire wielder?

I know that this would bring some great roleplaying elements into the Realms, something that I really want to do. Is the ability balanced enough as it is, or do I need to add some penalities or limitations to it? Sure, I'm going to send the Red Wizards after her if they find out about her ability, but until then, any advice? It would sure suck to have her store up 11 spellfire levels (her Constitution is 11 currently), walk into the evil fortress and annihilate the BBEG.

Help, please! I really want to let her have Spellfire, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it in a "balanced" way.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

Ghorticus

EDIT: By the way, the characters are starting at Level 1.
kedi
01-17-04, 04:26 AM There is a feat called "Spellfire Wielder" in MOF i guess, it is a talent-feat (can be taken only at first level) so, if he wants to, it would be fair in charge of a feat
Nightingale 7
01-17-04, 04:43 AM Spellfire is a powerful ability,to be true,but I found some tricks to make sure that it's not game defining.

1)Spellfire can only be used against one opponent.Instead of having the PCs fight a single ogre,which would be blasted to bits,have them face 2-3 bugbears.One may go down from Spellfire,but the other two will remain to challenge the party

2)Spellfire has to be charged with spells,and a Spellfire wielder can't charge himself,even if a mage.That means that the SFW will have to strike a deal with the party's other spellcasters to juice him up,if he wants to deal significant SF damage consistently.That means depleted spell lists.Throw in a couple of night-time encounters,and the spellcasters will think again before they use all of their spells to fill him up.

3)The fixed save DC means that it will be tough early on,but pretty easy at higher levels.Consider introducing BBEGs with Evasion and/or high Ref saves to limit him.

4)Lastly,don't forget that Spellfire will make him become a target of many mages,and also,he will be the first "to kill" in a battle if the enemy knows of his ability.

I hope this helps.In my oppinion Spellfire is not THAT all powerful after all.It's just that for the price to be paid,you SEEM to gain a lot.
"Hmm,let's see...For the price of one feat,I could get a +1 on my attack bonus,or imitate Goku.Not a difficult choice."
Ghorticus
01-17-04, 06:23 AM Ok, thanks guys, I think I will take your advice Nightingale, and let her take the feat, but I'll be sure to throw in some of those neat ideas you gave me though ;)
Jager
01-17-04, 02:11 PM in the last game i was playing, the dm rolled a secret die and chose me. i had no knowledge of this until my character hit 0 hp around level 5 (via 15 magic missles) and manifested spellfire abilities, fully healing, and obliterating the enemies. i was unable to recieve healing spells as anything was absorbed, until later trained to control this. how about, telling the kid he can't do it, then later springing it?
Nimzz
01-17-04, 08:42 PM i don't acually think that spellfire is that powerful...at low level the spell casters won't be throwing about that many spells...at higher levels i would find it extreemly risky to attempt to absorbe a finger of death spells when a powerful spell caster can mess things up with metamagic...if a charecter thinks that he is abvorbing a 3rd level lightning blast...and then is hit by a 6th level maximized lightning blast that hit for 60 points...that would make me a little causious about such things...
Crust
01-17-04, 09:52 PM I DM a cleric of Mystra 14/spellfire channeler 4, and there isn't anything unbalancing about him, even when I start him out with 20 stored spellfire levels before every outing.

He hardly ever turns the tide with his spellfire. Sure, it's clutch against a spellcaster, golem, or a spell barrier, but he in no way lays waste to legions of foes or causes towers to topple like we see in the Spellfire novels. Unlike in the novels, spellfire is used rarely, and it's spent quickly.

And charging up isn't easy, either. Converting useful spells and draining useful magical items for spellfire levels hardly ever seems the best choice when it comes down to making a decision, so he typically just uses what levels I start him out with.

As far as absorbing goes, he hardly ever does that unless he's in the midst of a one-on-one spell duel. I find that it's always better to act than to hope for a targeted spell.

Now, being the level that he is, and traveling with the individuals he travels with, the PCs and NPCs he is acquainted with allow for him to, say, pump himself up with up to 60 spellfire levels to, say, defend the walls of the Twisted Tower, or prepare for an assault against a force of githyanki, or a horde of orcs. Rapid blast is very destructive, and though one can only "target" one individual with spellfire, I assume spellfire functions much like great cleave, slaying others as it leaves ashes in its wake. There are times when he's super-charged right before a handy teleport, sending a veritable nuclear bomb into the midst of any successfully scried area... but that seldom happens.

Of course, one might say, "Why isn't he hunted down like Shandril was?" To that I reply, "Those fools learned their lesson in Spellfire." Or... "They can learn that lesson again when trying to tangle with him and his companions, which has happened time and again."

All in all, spellfire is nothing to get in a bind over.
Master Fu
02-29-04, 04:43 AM How is this feat not broken at the lower levels?

I just rolled up a gnome Hexblade with 20 Con.

Doesn't anyone else think that the ability to blast someone or something for 20d6 at 1st level kinda throws off the curve a little bit?

How can anyone say this feat is balanced comapred to something like Dodge, or even the other FCR Campaign-specific feats?
paradoxmage
02-29-04, 05:06 AM Doesn't anyone else think that the ability to blast someone or something for 20d6 at 1st level kinda throws off the curve a little bit?

I wouldnt say it is balanced compared to dodge feat but it isnt as bad as you think. A 1st level character being able to absorb 20 spell levels dosent mean he will have the chance to absorb that many. How many casters are you going to throw at a 1st level character and how many spells are companions going to be able to give up to charge that character up(spells are much more useful than for just attack).
If you have a problem with this tell the player he can can have the feat for the character but until he actually comes up with a reason the character would stand there and try and absorb a spell he dosent know it is there.
Derren S.
02-29-04, 05:17 AM Problem is that the otehr Pcs won't have a problem in charging him up before resting or using cheap wands/scrolls to power him up.
So he will very often be fully charged and can at lower level obliterate anything which crosses his path (and is balanced to his level).
Alac Luin
02-29-04, 06:57 PM Originally posted by Derren S.
Problem is that the otehr Pcs won't have a problem in charging him up before resting or using cheap wands/scrolls to power him up.

So don't hand them out as tresure.
Master Fu
02-29-04, 09:23 PM That wouldn't make a difference.

The casters in my party can just charge me up. And forcing the DM to adjust the treasure he gives to compensate for a lvl 1 feat with no meaningful prerequisites just proves it's broken. IF it was a racial ability as written, it would be at least a +1 LA, probably +2.

I think the easiest way to balance it would be to limit the Spellfire blasts to maximum size of 1/2 CL d6 (so a 4th lvl char with this feat couldn't create a single blast of Spellfire larger than 2d6). Maybe the character could go up to his CL as a full-round action.

This would balance the feat a bit, I think.

Any thoughts?
Sarta
03-01-04, 04:55 AM Originally posted by Master Fu
I think the easiest way to balance it would be to limit the Spellfire blasts to maximum size of 1/2 CL d6 (so a 4th lvl char with this feat couldn't create a single blast of Spellfire larger than 2d6). Maybe the character could go up to his CL as a full-round action.

This would balance the feat a bit, I think.

Any thoughts?

I have a player in my campaign with spellfire. I instituted a similar rule regarding how much damage he can do per blast. He is restricted to 1d6 per CL.

So far after about 12 game sessions he has not opted to use it offensively and forgotten (I opted not to remind him ;) ) to use it defensively when he's had a chance. He's keeping himself half-charged so that he can use it in either fashion.

He basically sees it as a secret weapon that should only be drug out when things are really going badly, which I commend him on.

Of course, he also knows that once the cats out of the bag regarding his special ability his character's life will become much more exciting.

Sarta
Wooly Rupert
03-01-04, 10:59 AM Originally posted by Sarta
Of course, he also knows that once the cats out of the bag regarding his special ability his character's life will become much more exciting.

And that, I think, is a huge balancing factor right there.
Jager
03-01-04, 04:34 PM this was a major campaign point right there. manifesting spellfire resulting in destroying the cult of the dragon's army and monkeywrenching their efforts to raise a dracolich.
they saw spellfire as a tool for the creation of same, and this bit me on the arse 2 sessions later.

the 4 of us head to the keep near thunder river. it turned out to be another cult stronghold. as soon as we crossed the threshold of the secret entrance, WHAM! a dm-designed area spell to sap Str. only i, the Sorc, made the save and had to battle 2 bone golems intent on subduing me. their wizard kept counterspelling me as well. i soon ate floor and lay there while the cult chopped off my left hand!

trying to fight back got acid (oh yes) poured down my throat. for a few gaming sessions my combat consisted of cowering. role playing was interesting. the pseudo-dragon familiar came in handy for communcation, and also to confuse enemies with bizarre telepathic messages.

Again, i never chose this feat, that was the dm's roll right there.

ultimately, elminster himself hooked me up on the Regeneration spell. i never got to finish this campaign but the dm and i are working on a graphic novel version.

http://steveohara.virtualave.net/images/sorcfinal.jpg
Alac Luin
03-01-04, 07:45 PM I like the idea of limiting the size of the bolt the spellfire character can throw.
The way I see it, if the other PCs charge up the wielder, they have too much spell power, or doing themselves a disservice during the adventure.
Like someone said, interrupt them a few nights where they wish they had their spells.
What wizard would not want to have his fireball spell that does (for 5th level character) 5d6 damage to potentially numerous enemies, to give someone else the chance to do 3d6 points damage to one enemy?
Heck, Magic Missile is more potent in the hands of 3rd level caster (2- 1d4+1 missiles) then the 1d6 potential a 20th level spellfire wielder would gain .

At about the time the party has enough magic at their disposal to keep a person full charged, throughout the adventure, the other party members are just a deadly with other abilities.

Sure, it can reasonably be thought that a character starts an adventure fully charged, but you (the DM) can limit that.
And so the first level character with 18 CON blasts the Orc leader for 18d6 damage, what good does that do for the score of kobold minions they have to pass to get out of the cave?
Waylander
03-03-04, 12:13 AM From my experience as a DM...

I had two players play spellfire in two different games of mine..

It's broken at lower levels...

You can say all you want... but when the group goes to bed and calls it a night and charges the level 3 cleric charges the level 3 wizard who has spellfire... and the wizard gets up 8 hrs later and on the first encounter shoots 20d6 at one monster... you just sit there and gap at it. Which Melf Acid Arrow can beat that?:sad:

You don't think that a level 3 cleric and a level 3 wizard will gather 20 spell levels between their level 1 and 2 spells? Think again
Mumm-Ra
03-03-04, 09:05 AM And that is why, under the spellfire wielder feat, it recommends to think twice before allowing it to players.

The balancing factor has to come from the DM, like what jager's DM did-having enemy spellcasters counterspell your spellfire while sending tough mele characters after you following a trap that weakens the tanks in the party...
If you are the DM that gave out the feat and asks for advice about how to limit it...you got a lot of work to do. As far as i'm concerned, if you give out the feat, you must be confident in your abilities to limit it.
Ardent
03-03-04, 10:59 AM The answer is simple...let them take the feat, but tell them the character doesn't have a clue (and thus the player cannot actively employ it). When the dramatically appropriate moment crops its head up somewhere around 6th or 7th level, the character's spellfire manifests and he acquires all the benefits and problems a typical "outed" spellfire wielder has.

This lets you throw "random" encounters with Zhents, Dragon cultists, Thayans and whatnot at your characters, giving the spellfire-wielder a way to employ his spellfire without necessarily having to destroy all the magic the party comes across.

Although, as a side note, I'd never allow my players to be spellfire wielders. They can go and earn themselves a Chosen template if they want supernatural powers, just like everyone else. ;)
Alac Luin
03-03-04, 11:11 AM Originally posted by Waylander
It's broken at lower levels...

You can say all you want... but when the group goes to bed and calls it a night and charges the level 3 cleric charges the level 3 wizard who has spellfire... and the wizard gets up 8 hrs later and on the first encounter shoots 20d6 at one monster... you just sit there and gap at it. Which Melf Acid Arrow can beat that?:sad:

Dont let them sleep at night!!!!!!

Or at least interupt them enough to think twice.
Just an encounter or two that the cleric wished he still had his cure minor wounds and that the wizard had his acid arrow

I may be wrong, but if the charicter is finding a use for a 20d6 spellfire bolt at 3rd level, there is more broken then this feat.

Yes, think twice about it before allowing it into your game.
That does not meen it is broken, but does require some creative DMing.
Additional work maybe, that�s why you need to think twice.
But it opens up new avenues for adventureing.
ENHenry
03-03-04, 02:06 PM A few other notes:

Spellfire can be negated with Dispel Magic, and even counterspelled with it.

Casters who spend all of their spells powering up a spellfire weilder at low levels will be low on spell power. Ask any party if they mind if their clerics are out of healing magic when they begin the day and see wha the answer is, even if it's because you've given one party member one or two ultra-powerful one-shots.

It is certainly on the powerful side for a single feat, but it so unbalanced it is unplayable.
Derren S.
03-03-04, 02:11 PM Originally posted by ENHenry
Ask any party if they mind if their clerics are out of healing magic when they begin the day and see wha the answer

And then ask any party if they mind if their clerics/mages are out of magic when they end the day and rest in a safe area.
The Formless One
03-03-04, 06:04 PM As I've read the thread, it has become more and more obvious that there are basically two camps at work here.

One feels the Spellfire is potent, but not overly so if used with maturity and a bit of restraint (by sense or just good role-playing).

The other feels that Spellfire is overly powerful, no matter how limited it may appear to be in certain situations.

That being said, lets all agree that if you go "But in this situtation Spellfire is over-powered" you're not going to get a response beyond the opposite.

As for the Dodge feat, lets not forget that in a situation where the Barbarian keeps hitting you by one point, that Dodge feat is a thousand times more useful then Spellfire.

See my point?

Personally, Spellfire is something I'm considering. It may, perhaps, end up broken. However, that's what manipulating the players into using it before the real big-bad shows up comes in :D

That, and the role-playing opportunity of playing the fuming ahtred of a Spellfire Spellsword against the Red Wizards in Aglarond is just too good for me to pass up. :D
ENHenry
03-04-04, 11:30 AM Originally posted by Derren S.
And then ask any party if they mind if their clerics/mages are out of magic when they end the day and rest in a safe area.

In my games they aren't out of magic becuase they pumped it into the spellfire user; they are out because they've been using them against the forces of those trying to kill them and take their stuff. :)

Now, granted, if you fuel up in town or a thoroughly dafe area, there's not much to worry about, and yes, they will have a freebie use of the spellfire. However, that one or two shots they get per session is not much compared to facing either lots of little dangers, or of facing challenges that Spellfire cannot blast away.

But that's just my take on it.
Alac Luin
03-04-04, 12:03 PM Originally posted by ENHenry
Now, granted, if you fuel up in town or a thoroughly safe area, there's not much to worry about,....

I didn't think ther is such a thing as a thoroughly safe area for adventurers.
Maybe thats just me.:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ghorticus 01-17-04, 03:42 AM	Ok, here's my little dilemma: One of my players REALLY wants to be a spellfire wielder in my brand new Forgotten Realms campaign. Normally I'd have no problem with allowing it in my "uber powerful characters" game, but this time around I'm shooting for low powered characters, i.e. 25-point buy. Would it be unbalancing and unfair to the other players to allow this player to be a spellfire wielder? I know that this would bring some great roleplaying elements into the Realms, something that I really want to do. Is the ability balanced enough as it is, or do I need to add some penalities or limitations to it? Sure, I'm going to send the Red Wizards after her if they find out about her ability, but until then, any advice? It would sure suck to have her store up 11 spellfire levels (her Constitution is 11 currently), walk into the evil fortress and annihilate the BBEG. Help, please! I really want to let her have Spellfire, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it in a "balanced" way. Thanks in advance for any advice, Ghorticus EDIT: By the way, the characters are starting at Level 1.
kedi 01-17-04, 04:26 AM	There is a feat called "Spellfire Wielder" in MOF i guess, it is a talent-feat (can be taken only at first level) so, if he wants to, it would be fair in charge of a feat
Nightingale 7 01-17-04, 04:43 AM	Spellfire is a powerful ability,to be true,but I found some tricks to make sure that it's not game defining. 1)Spellfire can only be used against one opponent.Instead of having the PCs fight a single ogre,which would be blasted to bits,have them face 2-3 bugbears.One may go down from Spellfire,but the other two will remain to challenge the party 2)Spellfire has to be charged with spells,and a Spellfire wielder can't charge himself,even if a mage.That means that the SFW will have to strike a deal with the party's other spellcasters to juice him up,if he wants to deal significant SF damage consistently.That means depleted spell lists.Throw in a couple of night-time encounters,and the spellcasters will think again before they use all of their spells to fill him up. 3)The fixed save DC means that it will be tough early on,but pretty easy at higher levels.Consider introducing BBEGs with Evasion and/or high Ref saves to limit him. 4)Lastly,don't forget that Spellfire will make him become a target of many mages,and also,he will be the first "to kill" in a battle if the enemy knows of his ability. I hope this helps.In my oppinion Spellfire is not THAT all powerful after all.It's just that for the price to be paid,you SEEM to gain a lot. "Hmm,let's see...For the price of one feat,I could get a +1 on my attack bonus,or imitate Goku.Not a difficult choice."
Ghorticus 01-17-04, 06:23 AM	Ok, thanks guys, I think I will take your advice Nightingale, and let her take the feat, but I'll be sure to throw in some of those neat ideas you gave me though ;)
Jager 01-17-04, 02:11 PM	in the last game i was playing, the dm rolled a secret die and chose me. i had no knowledge of this until my character hit 0 hp around level 5 (via 15 magic missles) and manifested spellfire abilities, fully healing, and obliterating the enemies. i was unable to recieve healing spells as anything was absorbed, until later trained to control this. how about, telling the kid he can't do it, then later springing it?
Nimzz 01-17-04, 08:42 PM	i don't acually think that spellfire is that powerful...at low level the spell casters won't be throwing about that many spells...at higher levels i would find it extreemly risky to attempt to absorbe a finger of death spells when a powerful spell caster can mess things up with metamagic...if a charecter thinks that he is abvorbing a 3rd level lightning blast...and then is hit by a 6th level maximized lightning blast that hit for 60 points...that would make me a little causious about such things...
Crust 01-17-04, 09:52 PM	I DM a cleric of Mystra 14/spellfire channeler 4, and there isn't anything unbalancing about him, even when I start him out with 20 stored spellfire levels before every outing. He hardly ever turns the tide with his spellfire. Sure, it's clutch against a spellcaster, golem, or a spell barrier, but he in no way lays waste to legions of foes or causes towers to topple like we see in the Spellfire novels. Unlike in the novels, spellfire is used rarely, and it's spent quickly. And charging up isn't easy, either. Converting useful spells and draining useful magical items for spellfire levels hardly ever seems the best choice when it comes down to making a decision, so he typically just uses what levels I start him out with. As far as absorbing goes, he hardly ever does that unless he's in the midst of a one-on-one spell duel. I find that it's always better to act than to hope for a targeted spell. Now, being the level that he is, and traveling with the individuals he travels with, the PCs and NPCs he is acquainted with allow for him to, say, pump himself up with up to 60 spellfire levels to, say, defend the walls of the Twisted Tower, or prepare for an assault against a force of githyanki, or a horde of orcs. Rapid blast is very destructive, and though one can only "target" one individual with spellfire, I assume spellfire functions much like great cleave, slaying others as it leaves ashes in its wake. There are times when he's super-charged right before a handy teleport, sending a veritable nuclear bomb into the midst of any successfully scried area... but that seldom happens. Of course, one might say, "Why isn't he hunted down like Shandril was?" To that I reply, "Those fools learned their lesson in Spellfire." Or... "They can learn that lesson again when trying to tangle with him and his companions, which has happened time and again." All in all, spellfire is nothing to get in a bind over.
Master Fu 02-29-04, 04:43 AM	How is this feat not broken at the lower levels? I just rolled up a gnome Hexblade with 20 Con. Doesn't anyone else think that the ability to blast someone or something for 20d6 at 1st level kinda throws off the curve a little bit? How can anyone say this feat is balanced comapred to something like Dodge, or even the other FCR Campaign-specific feats?
paradoxmage 02-29-04, 05:06 AM	Doesn't anyone else think that the ability to blast someone or something for 20d6 at 1st level kinda throws off the curve a little bit? I wouldnt say it is balanced compared to dodge feat but it isnt as bad as you think. A 1st level character being able to absorb 20 spell levels dosent mean he will have the chance to absorb that many. How many casters are you going to throw at a 1st level character and how many spells are companions going to be able to give up to charge that character up(spells are much more useful than for just attack). If you have a problem with this tell the player he can can have the feat for the character but until he actually comes up with a reason the character would stand there and try and absorb a spell he dosent know it is there.
Derren S. 02-29-04, 05:17 AM	Problem is that the otehr Pcs won't have a problem in charging him up before resting or using cheap wands/scrolls to power him up. So he will very often be fully charged and can at lower level obliterate anything which crosses his path (and is balanced to his level).
Alac Luin 02-29-04, 06:57 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Problem is that the otehr Pcs won't have a problem in charging him up before resting or using cheap wands/scrolls to power him up. So don't hand them out as tresure.
Master Fu 02-29-04, 09:23 PM	That wouldn't make a difference. The casters in my party can just charge me up. And forcing the DM to adjust the treasure he gives to compensate for a lvl 1 feat with no meaningful prerequisites just proves it's broken. IF it was a racial ability as written, it would be at least a +1 LA, probably +2. I think the easiest way to balance it would be to limit the Spellfire blasts to maximum size of 1/2 CL d6 (so a 4th lvl char with this feat couldn't create a single blast of Spellfire larger than 2d6). Maybe the character could go up to his CL as a full-round action. This would balance the feat a bit, I think. Any thoughts?
Sarta 03-01-04, 04:55 AM	Originally posted by Master Fu I think the easiest way to balance it would be to limit the Spellfire blasts to maximum size of 1/2 CL d6 (so a 4th lvl char with this feat couldn't create a single blast of Spellfire larger than 2d6). Maybe the character could go up to his CL as a full-round action. This would balance the feat a bit, I think. Any thoughts? I have a player in my campaign with spellfire. I instituted a similar rule regarding how much damage he can do per blast. He is restricted to 1d6 per CL. So far after about 12 game sessions he has not opted to use it offensively and forgotten (I opted not to remind him ;) ) to use it defensively when he's had a chance. He's keeping himself half-charged so that he can use it in either fashion. He basically sees it as a secret weapon that should only be drug out when things are really going badly, which I commend him on. Of course, he also knows that once the cats out of the bag regarding his special ability his character's life will become much more exciting. Sarta
Wooly Rupert 03-01-04, 10:59 AM	Originally posted by Sarta Of course, he also knows that once the cats out of the bag regarding his special ability his character's life will become much more exciting. And that, I think, is a huge balancing factor right there.
Jager 03-01-04, 04:34 PM	this was a major campaign point right there. manifesting spellfire resulting in destroying the cult of the dragon's army and monkeywrenching their efforts to raise a dracolich. they saw spellfire as a tool for the creation of same, and this bit me on the arse 2 sessions later. the 4 of us head to the keep near thunder river. it turned out to be another cult stronghold. as soon as we crossed the threshold of the secret entrance, WHAM! a dm-designed area spell to sap Str. only i, the Sorc, made the save and had to battle 2 bone golems intent on subduing me. their wizard kept counterspelling me as well. i soon ate floor and lay there while the cult chopped off my left hand! trying to fight back got acid (oh yes) poured down my throat. for a few gaming sessions my combat consisted of cowering. role playing was interesting. the pseudo-dragon familiar came in handy for communcation, and also to confuse enemies with bizarre telepathic messages. Again, i never chose this feat, that was the dm's roll right there. ultimately, elminster himself hooked me up on the Regeneration spell. i never got to finish this campaign but the dm and i are working on a graphic novel version. http://steveohara.virtualave.net/images/sorcfinal.jpg
Alac Luin 03-01-04, 07:45 PM	I like the idea of limiting the size of the bolt the spellfire character can throw. The way I see it, if the other PCs charge up the wielder, they have too much spell power, or doing themselves a disservice during the adventure. Like someone said, interrupt them a few nights where they wish they had their spells. What wizard would not want to have his fireball spell that does (for 5th level character) 5d6 damage to potentially numerous enemies, to give someone else the chance to do 3d6 points damage to one enemy? Heck, Magic Missile is more potent in the hands of 3rd level caster (2- 1d4+1 missiles) then the 1d6 potential a 20th level spellfire wielder would gain . At about the time the party has enough magic at their disposal to keep a person full charged, throughout the adventure, the other party members are just a deadly with other abilities. Sure, it can reasonably be thought that a character starts an adventure fully charged, but you (the DM) can limit that. And so the first level character with 18 CON blasts the Orc leader for 18d6 damage, what good does that do for the score of kobold minions they have to pass to get out of the cave?
Waylander 03-03-04, 12:13 AM	From my experience as a DM... I had two players play spellfire in two different games of mine.. It's broken at lower levels... You can say all you want... but when the group goes to bed and calls it a night and charges the level 3 cleric charges the level 3 wizard who has spellfire... and the wizard gets up 8 hrs later and on the first encounter shoots 20d6 at one monster... you just sit there and gap at it. Which Melf Acid Arrow can beat that?:sad: You don't think that a level 3 cleric and a level 3 wizard will gather 20 spell levels between their level 1 and 2 spells? Think again
Mumm-Ra 03-03-04, 09:05 AM	And that is why, under the spellfire wielder feat, it recommends to think twice before allowing it to players. The balancing factor has to come from the DM, like what jager's DM did-having enemy spellcasters counterspell your spellfire while sending tough mele characters after you following a trap that weakens the tanks in the party... If you are the DM that gave out the feat and asks for advice about how to limit it...you got a lot of work to do. As far as i'm concerned, if you give out the feat, you must be confident in your abilities to limit it.
Ardent 03-03-04, 10:59 AM	The answer is simple...let them take the feat, but tell them the character doesn't have a clue (and thus the player cannot actively employ it). When the dramatically appropriate moment crops its head up somewhere around 6th or 7th level, the character's spellfire manifests and he acquires all the benefits and problems a typical "outed" spellfire wielder has. This lets you throw "random" encounters with Zhents, Dragon cultists, Thayans and whatnot at your characters, giving the spellfire-wielder a way to employ his spellfire without necessarily having to destroy all the magic the party comes across. Although, as a side note, I'd never allow my players to be spellfire wielders. They can go and earn themselves a Chosen template if they want supernatural powers, just like everyone else. ;)
Alac Luin 03-03-04, 11:11 AM	Originally posted by Waylander It's broken at lower levels... You can say all you want... but when the group goes to bed and calls it a night and charges the level 3 cleric charges the level 3 wizard who has spellfire... and the wizard gets up 8 hrs later and on the first encounter shoots 20d6 at one monster... you just sit there and gap at it. Which Melf Acid Arrow can beat that?:sad: Dont let them sleep at night!!!!!! Or at least interupt them enough to think twice. Just an encounter or two that the cleric wished he still had his cure minor wounds and that the wizard had his acid arrow I may be wrong, but if the charicter is finding a use for a 20d6 spellfire bolt at 3rd level, there is more broken then this feat. Yes, think twice about it before allowing it into your game. That does not meen it is broken, but does require some creative DMing. Additional work maybe, that�s why you need to think twice. But it opens up new avenues for adventureing.
ENHenry 03-03-04, 02:06 PM	A few other notes: Spellfire can be negated with Dispel Magic, and even counterspelled with it. Casters who spend all of their spells powering up a spellfire weilder at low levels will be low on spell power. Ask any party if they mind if their clerics are out of healing magic when they begin the day and see wha the answer is, even if it's because you've given one party member one or two ultra-powerful one-shots. It is certainly on the powerful side for a single feat, but it so unbalanced it is unplayable.
Derren S. 03-03-04, 02:11 PM	Originally posted by ENHenry Ask any party if they mind if their clerics are out of healing magic when they begin the day and see wha the answer And then ask any party if they mind if their clerics/mages are out of magic when they end the day and rest in a safe area.
The Formless One 03-03-04, 06:04 PM	As I've read the thread, it has become more and more obvious that there are basically two camps at work here. One feels the Spellfire is potent, but not overly so if used with maturity and a bit of restraint (by sense or just good role-playing). The other feels that Spellfire is overly powerful, no matter how limited it may appear to be in certain situations. That being said, lets all agree that if you go "But in this situtation Spellfire is over-powered" you're not going to get a response beyond the opposite. As for the Dodge feat, lets not forget that in a situation where the Barbarian keeps hitting you by one point, that Dodge feat is a thousand times more useful then Spellfire. See my point? Personally, Spellfire is something I'm considering. It may, perhaps, end up broken. However, that's what manipulating the players into using it before the real big-bad shows up comes in :D That, and the role-playing opportunity of playing the fuming ahtred of a Spellfire Spellsword against the Red Wizards in Aglarond is just too good for me to pass up. :D
ENHenry 03-04-04, 11:30 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. And then ask any party if they mind if their clerics/mages are out of magic when they end the day and rest in a safe area. In my games they aren't out of magic becuase they pumped it into the spellfire user; they are out because they've been using them against the forces of those trying to kill them and take their stuff. :) Now, granted, if you fuel up in town or a thoroughly dafe area, there's not much to worry about, and yes, they will have a freebie use of the spellfire. However, that one or two shots they get per session is not much compared to facing either lots of little dangers, or of facing challenges that Spellfire cannot blast away. But that's just my take on it.
Alac Luin 03-04-04, 12:03 PM	Originally posted by ENHenry Now, granted, if you fuel up in town or a thoroughly safe area, there's not much to worry about,.... I didn't think ther is such a thing as a thoroughly safe area for adventurers. Maybe thats just me.:)