Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iakhovas 02-27-08, 08:41 PM	A new Countdown to the Realms article has been posted on D&D Insider. Spellplague: The Wailing Years (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080227a&authentic=true).
Todesherr 02-27-08, 09:24 PM	In one fell swoop, the Realms were changed....
selunatic2397 02-27-08, 09:25 PM	Truthfully Brian? It reads like WOTC is trying to make the Re-Make the Realms into a copy of WOW. Pretty, Yes. But if I want WOW, or GuildWars, or anything else...I will play those. My group plays 1ED Realms and likes the world the way it is [in my game anyhow]. I am still not seeing or reading anything that might make me even crack the covers of the "New And Improved 4ED Realms" covers. The Realms was described by my players as "Going Home" I have 5 players who trust me to keep my campaign interesting and fun, a way to relax from their everyday mundane lives. Since my campaign has been running for over 27 years I must be doing something right. :)
MarkusTay63 02-27-08, 09:44 PM	C'mon Brian... I know your persona is Iakhovas, but killing defensless marine Mammals? Oh... wait... You mean the other kind of 'Whaling'... :rolleyes: Sorry... my bad. :P
Iakhovas 02-27-08, 09:46 PM	Indeed. No doubt about it, you're going to see changes. And many of these preview articles are purposed to show off the changes. But I think you'd be surprised by the amount of things that have not changed. And I'm an Everquest guy. Never played Wow or Guildwars, but I know what you're talking about.
Alediran 02-27-08, 10:10 PM	I'll begin saying this is not an attack to Brian, after saying that I'll continue with this transmition. Look this: 1394 DR (Year of Deaths Unmourned) Led by the increasingly mad human-turned-eladrin Shadowmoon Crystalembers, the Grand Cabal of the Emerald Enclave begins attempting -- often by violent means -- to stem the tide of spellscarred pilgrims that pass through Turmish. They LIED AGAIN, a DIRECT REFERENCE TO ELADRINS in FR!! And this: Turmish Turmish suffered much less than Chondath, but the partial draining of the Sea of Fallen Stars did leave its busy port at Alaghôn high and dry. Today, this realm of increasingly competitive and desperate merchant costers is also a through-route for fanatics on spellscar pilgrimages to the Changing Lands. The once welcoming and cosmopolitan Turmishans have grown increasingly xenophobic, and they are guarded and suspicious of strangers, even though they remain dependent on outside trade. A direct ripoff from Dragonlance!!! In one of the sidebars: Exarchs (the name is a direct ripoff from Mage: the Awakening) Finally, exarchs in D&D campaigns are fully intended to be defeatable by any epic-level PC strong enough to attempt it. Of course, immortal beings are not just sitting around waiting for epic-level adventurers to take their life. And should the PCs even succeed in such an endeavor, they'll surely have earned the wrath of the exarch's patron deity. GD is going to get SO ****** off by what WotC did to Nobanion. To the bolded part: WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF??????????????? ??? 1393 DR (Year of the Ring) Sembian investors begin buying up land in the southern Dales. Concerned, Azoun V issues a formal objection to the Dale's Council in Archendale but the King's emissary is rebuffed. * Spellscarred beings and pilgrims hoping to obtain a spellscar begin journeying to the Changing Lands in large numbers. They are welcomed in Ormpetarr by the Order of Blue Fire. There you have it: Dragonmarks And from the same article: Changing Lands Where once stood the realm of Sespech, the Golden Plains, and the Nagalands, now stands a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability. Active Spellplague still cavorts on this territory, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter. Earthmotes aplenty break up the sky in a strange parity with the fractured terrain below. Swaths of moving earth change with mercurial speed, and great ravines empty directly into the Underdark. Artist renditions that capture true glimpses of the place's exquisite loveliness and horrific strangeness can command large sums back in civilized lands. MOURNLANDS!!!!!!!! SCAR PILGRIMAGE: Plaguechanged and pilgrims hoping to obtain a spellscar sometimes journey here because it's the most prominent plagueland in Faerûn, as well as a great hold of the Order of Blue Fire. The stability of the plagueland's border provides an environment where the clever, ambitious, or insane can experiment with the Spellplague and its effects. As with most who brave plaguelands, few pilgrims who enter the Changing Land are ever seen again, but those who do return sometimes claim newfound power. YET MORE DRAGONMARKS!!!!! Conclusion: what I read wasn't Forgotten Realms, it was a mix of pieces of the Realms with things that make no sense at all. The Realms are dead, Long Live the Realms!
Old Sage 02-27-08, 11:17 PM	But I think you'd be surprised by the amount of things that have not changed.I wonder about this. I'm curious about why we've not heard much about what isn't being changed, or what positive aspects may come from the changes wrought by the Spellplague. Granted, it's unlikely that such aspects of 4e FR are to be as "entertaining" as the previewed changes so far. But I'm the kind of scribe who likes to look over the entire book before I sit down to read it. And it's the same approach I use with the Realms. I like to know about both the good and the bad. I'm not particularly comfortable with forming opinions on just what we've seen and read so far. Is there any possibility that this will be addressed in a future article?
MarkusTay63 02-27-08, 11:35 PM	I'm not quite through reading it yet... consulting my maps HEAVILY whilst reading... So far - The Crystal Mountains that appeared in NE Cormyr... they wouldn't happen to be connected to the long-lost city of psionic monks, would it? ;) Sakkors - When did this city come back? :confused: Last I read, it was sitting at the bottom of the Inner Sea... in ruins. Does 'Cerulean' = 'Magic' now? Lots of badness hitting Halruua and the Southern Coasts - I guess I was right about the Tsunami hitting Luiren - just look at the year (Year of the Halfling's Lament). I guess the few water-logged survivors build themselves a nice little culture in their 4e swamp, eh? ;) What year was Azoun V born? Humans become Eladrins? I thought the Gold and Silver Elves were becoming Eladrins... I'm totally confused at this point.
Vulpes 02-27-08, 11:43 PM	I'm going to have to go back later with maps in hand to try to visualize all the geographical changes. Some interesting stuff, though. What I find most interesting are the veils of illusion being ripped from Selune (will there be contact and adventure opportunities there now?) and the increasingly explicit lore that Abeir and Toril "exchanged" lands and people. So Maztica and Chessenta and Chondath and Unther are now sitting on another world, which opens up some cool possibilities.
Iakhovas 02-27-08, 11:46 PM	I'm currently writing an article on 4E Cormyr that may just do just that Sage. Yes, a hundred years has passed and there is a new king on the Dragon Throne, but the underlying vibe of the place hasn't changed. You'll still recognize the Forest Kingdom on a map and adventurers still need charters and must peacebond their weapons. War Wizards and Purple Dragons are still defenders of the realm. And to ensure that I don't go crazy and unleash a horde of ghazneths on Suzail, Ed Greenwood and Brian "Garen Thal" Cortijo are working with me to ensure the lore is accurate and respectful of prior art.
Iakhovas 02-28-08, 12:01 AM	The Crystal Mountains that appeared in NE Cormyr... they wouldn't happen to be connected to the long-lost city of psionic monks, would it? ;)Check out Chapter 11 from the Shadowdale novel. This isn't the first time in recent memory that Abeir has merged with Toril. Sakkors - When did this city come back? :confused: Last I read, it was sitting at the bottom of the Inner Sea... in ruins.Read Paul Kemp's new trilogy. It's great stuff! Does 'Cerulean' = 'Magic' now?Cerulean is the new Blue my brother. Blue is so yesterday. Lots of badness hitting Halruua and the Southern Coasts - I guess I was right about the Tsunami hitting Luiren - just look at the year (Year of the Halfling's Lament). I guess the few water-logged survivors build themselves a nice little culture in their 4e swamp, eh? ;)No comment. :P What year was Azoun V born?Year of the Unstrung Harp (1371 DR). Humans become Eladrins? I thought the Gold and Silver Elves were becoming Eladrins... I'm totally confused at this point.No, just this specific human became an eladrin.
18DELTA 02-28-08, 12:51 AM	-Wow I just browsed the article. Its some thing else. I was wondering when this article was coming. Countdown to the Realms Spellplague: The Wailing Years by Brian James 02/27/2008Dragon Features Archive Excerpt from the journal of Arleenaya Kithmaer, First Magistrati of the House of the High One Ascendant, Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR) "Reaching out northwest from beyond the horizon's rim, I beheld a sight which was at once horrifying as it was beautiful; a stormlike catastrophe rolling across the sky, which seemed to be ablaze with blue fire. Frozen in stupefying awe, I witnessed the cerulean thunderhead crash into the mighty Lhairghal, throwing pillars of azure fire skyward to snatch at Selûne's calming light. Selûne, my gods! The surface of the moon, long presented to us mortals as a barren landscape of craters and lifeless valleys, now revealed to me majestic mountains and sprawling seas; itself alight with similar cobalt radiance. A nearby exclamation from the Magehound returned my attention earthward to witness a shimmering wall of sapphire flame racing down Mhair Pass. Five breaths longer and the storm would crash into the battlement upon which I stood with a handful of loomwardens. I recall hastily whispered prayers to Azuth, a moment of unqualified stillness, and then nothing." As dusk fell over the Shining South on the final day of Uktar in the Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR), a menacing storm began forming over the Mhair Jungles west of Halruaa. Beyond its massive size, the storm was particularly notable for the ribbons of blue flame that seemed to writhe and flow among its formations. In the mountains near Lhair in western Halruaa, dumbfounded priests watched in absolute silence, unable to comprehend the terrible events unfolding on the horizon. What the clerics of Azuth could not possibly fathom was that three score or more similar storms sprang up all across Toril; born instantly upon the assassination of Mystra in her heavenly dominion. Arleenaya Kithmaer and four nearby priests were teleported to safety by a quick-thinking magehound. The nation of Halruaa, however, would suffer horribly that ill-fated night. The three great mountain ranges that oft protected the nation from external invasion actually made it difficult for many Halruaans to escape the uncontrolled wild magic unleashed across the countryside. Halruaa today is best known as a magical wasteland; it is also the birthplace of the roving mercenary bands known as the Five Companies. The cerulean storm and its aftereffects would become known in later days as the Spellplague. Despite its name, the Spellplague was no mere magical affliction. For nearly ten years the plague raged on and on in ever-widening spirals, irrevocably altering whole regions while leaving others completely unscathed. Whole countries vanished in earthquakes, fires, and windstorms, inexplicably replaced with peoples and lands from a world beyond our own. Even the starry constellations in the Sea of Night seemingly rearranged themselves in the heavens above. Scholars in later years would name this decade of chaos and upheaval the Wailing Years, or simply the Plague Years. For more details on the Spellplague and the secondary catastrophes that followed in its wake, check out the Countdown to the Realms preview article Magic in the Forgotten Realms. The Wailing Years In game terms, the Spellplague represents the definitive event for transitioning the setting from one rules system to the next, and the loss of the Weave will have a profound effect on arcane spellcasters in your campaign. Though a small percentage of mages are driven to madness at the outset of the Spellplague, it's recommended you spare your players from this ignoble fate. Instead, wizards and other arcane spellcasters find that their magic has gone wild or departed altogether. In effect, all of Abeir-Toril is blanketed by a massive zone of wild magic. Refer to the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (page 55) for Table 2–1 of Wild Magic Effects. As the Weave unravels throughout the month of Nightal in the Year of Blue Fire, these wild magic zones are quickly replaced with dead magic zones until one day arcane magic ceases to function altogether. DMs may wish to take advantage of the Wailing Years to run a low magic/melee-centric campaign using rules or concepts from sourcebooks such as Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords or Iron Heroes. Otherwise it may be wise to simply move your campaign forward to the Year of Silent Death (1395 DR) or beyond, where direct effects of the Spellplague have largely subsided and most spellcasters have once again gained mastery of their magic. See the section below on the Vilhon Reach for a description of a functioning time portal you may wish to use for this purpose. Included below is a timeline of key events that occurred during the Wailing Years, which may be useful to a transitional campaign set in the kingdom of Cormyr or the Vilhon Reach. Following the timeline is a brief update of these two regions, including sample adventure hooks. Timeline 1385 DR (Year of Blue Fire) The Spellplague: An unthinkable catastrophe ensues when Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending the gods Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the endless Astral Sea. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all across Toril and the surrounding planes and runs wild. In Faerûn, this event is known as the Spellplague. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath veils of azure fire that dance across the skies by night or by day. Where once stood the realm of Sespech, the Golden Plains, and the Nagalands, the Spellplague reveals a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability. For the next century, active Spellplague cavorts on this territory called the Changing Lands, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter. Cormyr is struck hard, but not so violently as many other nations. Roughly one third of all Wizards of War are slain, driven mad, or simply have gone missing in the year following Mystra's death. 1386 DR (Year of the Halfling's Lament) A portion of Toril's sibling world Abeir violently exchanges places with large sections of Chondath and western Chessenta. Displaced genasi from the Abeiran land of Shyr quickly set about creating a kingdom of their own. The former expanse of the Sea of Fallen Stars is altered when wide portions of the landscape collapse into the Underdark. When the sea level reaches its new equilibrium, the average drop in water level measured nearly 50 feet. The waters of the Vilhon Reach were similarly drained, uncovering several drowned ruins from ancient Jhaamdath. 1387 DR (Year of the Emerald Ermine) The Emerald Enclave begins sending agents throughout the Vilhon Wilds to counter the effects of the Spellplague. As years became decades, their original mission is slowly perverted from one of respect for and guardianship of nature to a vain struggle against forces far beyond their control. The Prismatic Mountains, a beautiful Abeiran mountain range seeming to be made entirely of dense multicolored glass, appears between the Desertmouth Mountains and the Thunderpeaks, closing off Shadow Gap and halting overland trade along the Northride between New Tilverton and Shadowdale. 1388 DR (Year of the Tanarukka) Bullywugs tribes from the Farsea Marshes begin harrying Zhentarim forces operating throughout the Tunlands, diminishing Black Network activities in the region. Some members of Cormyr's remaining War Wizards, having lost access to the Art, begin cross-training with the Purple Dragons in swordplay and martial defense. In years to come these swordmages will prove invaluable against neighboring aggression in the region. 1389 DR (Year of the Forgiven Foes) A strangely angular black monolith is sometimes visible breaking above the waves along Cormyr's coast, never in the same place twice. 1390 DR (Year of the Walking Man) Dowager Dragon Queen, Filfaeril Selazair Obarskyr, dies. Alusair attends the state funeral, argues briefly and privately with her nephew the king, and disappears altogether from Court. Rumors persist of her riding through the frontiers and borderlands, but no confirmed reports of her appearance exist following the burial of Filfaeril. 1391 DR (Year of the Wrathful Eye) The dark druid Zalaznar Crinios leads a great host of fell beasts to sack the forest community of Gurnth. Nobanion calls his followers to his side at Machran Spire in an effort to counter the pending invasion. 1392 DR (Year of the Scroll) The Dragon Coast city of Pros petitions the Crown to become a vassal-state of Cormyr in order to protect it from the ravages of the Spellplague. Azoun V reluctantly accepts. By year's end, Pros' sister-town of Ilipur joins the Forest Kingdom as well. Unfortunately the receding waters of the Sea of Fallen Stars have spelled ruin for these small trading towns. 1393 DR (Year of the Ring) Sembian investors begin buying up land in the southern Dales. Concerned, Azoun V issues a formal objection to the Dale's Council in Archendale but the King's emissary is rebuffed. Spellscarred beings and pilgrims hoping to obtain a spellscar begin journeying to the Changing Lands in large numbers. They are welcomed in Ormpetarr by the Order of Blue Fire. 1394 DR (Year of Deaths Unmourned) Led by the increasingly mad human-turned-eladrin Shadowmoon Crystalembers, the Grand Cabal of the Emerald Enclave begins attempting -- often by violent means -- to stem the tide of spellscarred pilgrims that pass through Turmish. Years of straining with their conflicted Sembian and Cormyrean identities, and struggling against the rule of Netheril, culminates in the annexation of the border city of Daerlun into the Forest Kingdom. 1395 DR (Year of Silent Death) Sakkors, the Netherese floating enclave not seen since the days before the Spellplague, makes a reappearance over Daerlun in the dead of night. The following morning civil unrest breaks out throughout the city. Azoun V sends elite swordmages to restore order in the city. Tone and Feel The 4th Edition Realms are shifting away from a "Renaissance" feel to a more contemporary higher fantasy environment. If you can imagine playing D&D in a world that looks like the cover of a Yes album, you're getting close. Yeah, I needed to Google it, too. For visuals, go visit www.rogerdean.com. High fantasy doesn't mean that the Realms are turning into a magical steampunk setting. Eberron already has elemental-powered airships and trains, and that is not the direction set for the Realms. Instead, the landscape itself shall be spectacular, indescribable, striking, and magical. Of course each region will maintain its own distinctive flavor. We don't think that Waterdeep belongs on a floating earthmote or that the Dalelands needs all its farmland replaced with spiky stone towers, but we want some of that element of the incredible to be a part of almost every piece of the Realms your characters visit. Vilhon Reach The lands of the Vilhon Reach were affected greatly by the merging of Abeir with Toril. The waters of the Reach itself were partially drained during the Spellplague, revealing several drowned Cities of the Sword from ancient Jhaamdath. The once welcoming and cosmopolitan folk of Turmish have grown increasingly xenophobic throughout the Wailing Years. Akanûl, formerly the lands of Chondath, are now populated by genasi from the Abeiran land of Shyr, a region that will barely survive its first contact with the Abolethic Sovereignty some years later. Since the Year of Blue Fire, civilization has been slow to return to the wilder Spellplague-morphed regions. The notorious Changing Lands lie close by, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter. The Vilhon Reach is a great example of the new "Tone and Feel" of the setting in action, making it a great region to explore some of the more fantastic locales on Faerûn. ANDRIO'S GATE: The Reach happens to contain one of Toril's few functioning time gates; a useful tool for bringing characters forward beyond the Wailing Years (1385 DR to 1395 DR) to a more stable time period for campaign play. The time gate is located within Mount Andrus, a volcanic peak within the Orsraun Mountains on Turmish's western frontier. There the time gate has survived millennia despite several volcanic eruptions, shielded from the monstrous heat and the effects of the Spellplague by powerful, and some would say divine, wards. Adrio's Gate is activated by speaking the name of a year as given in the Roll of Years then stepping through the gate's event horizon. Turmish Turmish suffered much less than Chondath, but the partial draining of the Sea of Fallen Stars did leave its busy port at Alaghôn high and dry. Today, this realm of increasingly competitive and desperate merchant costers is also a through-route for fanatics on spellscar pilgrimages to the Changing Lands. The once welcoming and cosmopolitan Turmishans have grown increasingly xenophobic, and they are guarded and suspicious of strangers, even though they remain dependent on outside trade. North and west of Turmish beyond the Orsraun and Alaoreum Mountains stretches the forested realm of Gulthandor, ruled by a powerful and enigmatic druid in lion's form its followers name Nobanion. Gulthandor has no ties with the largely disbanded organization once known as the Emerald Enclave. Ilighôn, once the island home of the Enclave, became part of mainland Turmish when the seas retreated in 1386 DR. YURGRIM'S DELVE: Alaghôn remains the capital of Turmish; the city's curious architecture is the result of the Chondathan humans building over existing structures left by a previous dwarven civilization. The dwarves also left an abandoned mine -- a maze of subterranean tunnels, vaults, and catacombs that have never been fully explored, or fully rid of monsters -- beneath the city streets. Few entrances to the Undercity remain, but adventurers continue to brave their dark reaches in search of plunder. A few ancient tomes make reference to a lich queen from Unther residing below the palace, yet most discount these accounts as wild tales of fiction. PRIDE OF THE FIREMANE: Zalaznar Crinios (CE dark tree druid 20), has turned away from the teachings of Eldath to embrace Malar, who "rewarded" the High Druid by transforming him into a Dark Tree (Shining South p62). Zalaznar is gathering a great host of fell beasts to sack the forest community of Gurnth (village; population ~300). Nobanion is calling all able-bodied adventurers to his side at Machran Spire in an effort to counter the pending invasion. Nobanion Lord Firemane, Lord of Gulthandor Unaligned Exarch of Silvanus Seen as a great protector and guardian across the Vilhon Wilds, Nobanion (No-BAN-yun) appears as a great male lion of at least twice normal size. His coat gleams with the radiance of the sun, and his mane is incredibly thick and luxurious. Sometimes the Lion God's mane ignites in a nimbus of amber and golden fire, the origin of his title "Lord Firemane." At will he can sprout the wings of a gigantic eagle. Thought to be a favored champion of Silvanus, Nobanion now rules the forested realm of Gulthandor from the druidic stronghold of Cedarsproke. Beyond Gulthandor, Lord Firemane is also honored as the titular ruler of the wemic Tenpaw tribe of the Shining Plains. Clerics of Silvanus who honor the tenets of the King of Lions are known as Roaring Avengers. Exarchs The exarchs are often called demigods or heroes, and many are ascended mortal servants of greater gods, brought up from the world to serve as agents of their divine masters. Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods. For example, the druids of Gulthandor pay homage to the Lion God, but in reality the character's divine spells are being granted by Nobanion's patron, Silvanus. Unlike true deities, exarchs are not bound to live in Astral Dominions with their patrons. Like Nobanion, many choose to live on the Material Plane, more directly engaged in the lives of their mortal followers. Finally, exarchs in D&D campaigns are fully intended to be defeatable by any epic-level PC strong enough to attempt it. Of course, immortal beings are not just sitting around waiting for epic-level adventurers to take their life. And should the PCs even succeed in such an endeavor, they'll surely have earned the wrath of the exarch's patron deity. Chondath A portion of Toril's sibling world, Abeir violently exchanged places with large sections of Chondath and western Chessenta during the Spellplague. The shattered ruins of cities lie broken at the bottom of ravines or thrust high atop stone spires, a constant draw to adventurers seeking troves of lost gold. The land today is characterized by crazed stone spires, cavernous ravines, and cliffs like petrified waves. Freefloating earthmotes host miniature forests, grasslands, lakes, and ever-replenishing waterfalls that mist the land below in draperies of mist. The wild landscape is perfectly suited to the tempestuous population of genasi that now claim the land as their own. Akanûl is the name of this genasi-ruled realm, and the capital city of Airspur holds the bulk of the nation's population. The waters of the Vilhon Reach were partially drained during the Spellplague, revealing several ruined Cities of the Sword, lost since the last days of Jhaamdath. Travelers to the region are few and far between. The few who travel through this treacherous floodplain return with madness or not at all. The Chondalwood is a confusion of ravines and floating junglemotes, some sailing free, others webbed to lower jungle regions by thick vines and vegetation. The Chondalwood's vigor is impressive -- it grew in the Spellplague's wake instead of being diminished or being erased by it; witness its colonizing junglemotes spreading like airborne seeds north, south, and east, and west. The halflings and centaurs that once roamed these woods are now gone; replaced with spellscarred satyrs and feral elves who declare blood feud on any outsider entering the jungle's heartwood. LESSER OF TWO EVILS: During a violent spring thunderstorm, a strange angular black monolith is spotted in the shallow waters off the Nun Coast near Reth. The following morning, kuo-toa harpooners flying strange winged morkoth attack the port city. The invaders are repelled by High Lady Glorganna and a detachment of Banite guerrillas. It remains unclear what the Abolethic Sovereignty was seeking in the city -- half of which lies in shattered ruin at the bottom of the Bay of Silvanus. MAGEDOOM: At the center of the Chondalwood is a ruin of ancient, toppled stone towers whose cellars are packed with gold coins. The elves of Wildhome steer well clear of it, citing terrible bodiless guardian creatures that ravage flesh, inspire madness, and target spellcasters in particular, igniting them like torches. Changing Lands Where once stood the realm of Sespech, the Golden Plains, and the Nagalands, now stands a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability. Active Spellplague still cavorts on this territory, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter. Earthmotes aplenty break up the sky in a strange parity with the fractured terrain below. Swaths of moving earth change with mercurial speed, and great ravines empty directly into the Underdark. Artist renditions that capture true glimpses of the place's exquisite loveliness and horrific strangeness can command large sums back in civilized lands. SCAR PILGRIMAGE: Plaguechanged and pilgrims hoping to obtain a spellscar sometimes journey here because it's the most prominent plagueland in Faerûn, as well as a great hold of the Order of Blue Fire. The stability of the plagueland's border provides an environment where the clever, ambitious, or insane can experiment with the Spellplague and its effects. As with most who brave plaguelands, few pilgrims who enter the Changing Land are ever seen again, but those who do return sometimes claim newfound power. Religion DC 30: The Order of Blue Fire appears as a benevolent service organization, but its public face is a front to a more sinister organization. It formed as a cult dedicated to the idea that the Spellplague was a holy cosmic event, the changing work of which should be encouraged to continue. The focal points of this belief system are inscrutable beings known as the Masters of Absolute Accord. The Masters can manipulate plaguelands and send visions to the spellscarred. Their guidance often leads to miraculous and terrible events that spread and nurture existing active pockets of Spellplague. Motes After the plague of change, some elements of the physical world have gained a supernatural independence from certain natural laws. The most striking of these (to those unfamiliar with them) are motes. Motes are free-floating bits of landscape that defy gravity to hover in place over certain locales (usually, those locales most affected by the Spellplague). These motes are not usually more than a few hundred meters along any one dimension, but despite this relative small size, ecosystems cling to these motes, apparently sustained by the more natural landscape over or through which a particular mote floats. Motes are often referred to according to the type of landscape each sports. Thus, there are junglemotes, fungusmotes, cavemotes, grassmotes, pinemotes, and so on. Larger motes may support animal life, including humanoids. Cormyr Unlike the lands of the Vilhon Reach, the nation of Cormyr suffered little geological upheaval during the Spellplague Years. Instead the upheaval in the Forest Kingdom was largely political. Famine, economic hardship, and unrest among the peerage would be difficult for any ruling monarch, yet these challenges perhaps weighed more heavily upon the shoulders of young King Azoun V. Claiming the Dragon Throne in the Year of Three Streams Blooded (1384 DR), Azoun had merely thirteen winters behind him at his coronation and only sixteen months on the throne before the Spellplague sent the world spinning into chaos. Thankfully, the king surrounded himself with men and women of wise counsel, including the Caladnei, Mage Royal of Cormyr. Under his rule, the Forest Kingdom quickly recovered from the anarchy of the Wailing Years, and the young king went on to become a just, wise, and long-lived ruler. The Helmlands Formed during the Time of Troubles, this desolate land of howling winds and jagged rock was the site of Mystra's destruction at the hands of Helm in the Year of Shadows (1358 DR). In the months following its creation, locals named the site the Pits of Mystra, for the land was nothing but bubbling tar pits as far as the eye could see. Priests dedicated to the new Goddess of Magic cleansed the land of the fetid pits in later years, but the tear in the fabric of the Weave remained. Today a forest of towering redwoods has returned; the original was lost when Mystra's dying energy blasted the land like a million Shou cannons. In the wake of the Spellplague, the Helmlands have grown, spreading along the northern wall of the Stormhorns, stretching as far west as the foothills above Eveningstar. Wild magic still pervades the entire region, but unlike the Changing Lands, visitors may enter the Helmslands without fear of becoming spellscarred. TEMPLE ACHERON: Once the blasted ruin of Castle Kilgrave, the imposing stronghold was rebuilt by priests of Bane following his apparent resurrection in the Year of Wild Magic (1372 DR). As the Lord of Strife himself had done during the Time of Troubles, the strifelords reshaped the ruins into an echo of Bane's Temple of the Suffering in the Barrens of Doom and Despair. Thirty-foot-high walls constructed of a seamless other-worldly material of black laced with green connect the windowless towers on four corners, and on the west side a towering 60-foot obelisk encloses a drawbridge set against the wall. Purple Dragon Knights stationed at Castle Crag patrol the eastern perimeter of the Helmslands daily, keeping a vigilant eye for any threats coming from Temple Acheron. Farsea Swamp This slowly growing swamp consists of two formerly separate marshes, Farsea and Tun. The swamp has mile after mile of muddy terrain swept with golden-green tall grasses broken by channels of bronze water. Most citizens of Cormyr see the wetlands as dark, forbidding places, where evil festers and foul creatures lurk in murky water to devour the unwary. While this image is largely true of the deadly Vast Swamp in eastern Cormyr, it is an incomplete and misleading portrayal of the Farsea Swamp. LEGACY OF THE BATRACHI: Amid the vast, fog-laced expanse of the Farsea Swamp rests the scattered ruins of a vanished civilization, not Netherese as many have speculated. Thick with poisonous insects and plague, few enough have glimpsed these ruins. Ornate buildings made of glass as strong as steel hint at a magical technology lost to the present day. Rumors have it that the bold can claim gold and strange secrets from the half-drowned basements, if they can but survive the swamp's pestilence and withstand the might of strange creatures set as guardians within the interior of the glassteel towers. Hullack Forest Dark and foreboding best describes the thick dense woods of the Hullack Forest. The Hullack is almost a primeval forest, with dark valleys and hidden vales that have gone unseen for decades. Ghostly creatures and odd monsters pepper the local folklore, and orcs and goblins are frequent visitors from the Thunder Peaks. In the years immediately preceding the Spellplague, large numbers of adventurers entered the forest seeking to clear it of monsters and explore its deeper regions. Thunderstone, a small town on the southern edge of Hullack Forest, was often used as a base of operations for such expeditions. These crown-sanctioned activities came to an abrupt end in the Year of the Wrathful Eye (1391 DR) when the Eldreth Veluuthra, a militant group of human-despising elves, claimed the forest as their own. A brief conflict with the elves ensued in the Year of Deaths Unmourned (1394 DR), but young King Azoun V later turned his full attention to more pressing threats from neighboring Netheril and Sembia. REALM OF WAILING FOG: Sandwiched between the Hullack Forest and the Thunder Peaks, the Realm of Wailing Fog remains a land of desolate fens, ever-present mist, and eerie echoing calls. Even the Eldreth Veluuthra dare not explore the realm's long-ruined towers. Travelers to the region speak of a heavy feeling of "watchfulness" hanging over everything. Rumors persist that a coven of hags lives in the area, but these claims have never been substantiated. About the Author A software engineering manager by day and Forgotten Realms aficionado by night, Brian R. James authored the Grand History of the Realms and continues to serve up new Realmslore through D&D Insider and the Candlekeep Compendium. Brian also contributed to the forthcoming 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide to be released later this year. In his spare time he enjoys exploring EverQuest II with his fae shadowknight Iakhovas and pretending he's a good drummer on Rock Band. Brian lives in Montana with his high school sweetheart Toni and their four children. 18DELTA:eek:
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 01:20 AM	Overall, I like it. No new big 'wammys' thrown at us like the last article, although I am curious as to when the Dragonborn arrive? Have they been ret-conned out before they even began? (please say it is so) Or do they take the place of the Genasi Kingdom at a later date? :confused: Where is Gurnth? Not about to buy those 'Yes' desktop pics, and the thumbnails are way to small to be useable as any sort of reference - sorry. (So who's the 'Yes' fan?) Aslan's been downgraded to a Hierophant Druid, eh? Year of the Unstrung Harp (1371 DR)..Thanks for the info - I couldn't find the date in the GHotR - WAY too many pieces of lore in the last few years. (TOO many f-ing novels!) I haven't seen the Avatar Trilogy around in years, although I know I did own it at some point. I probably lent it out and never got it back - what was the 'Abeir' reference in Shadowdale? ________________________________________ ________________________________________ _ The overall feel I like, and two things in particular stuck in my mind - The Spellscarred Satyr (I love Satyrs! And ebil ones are even cooler), and this descriptive line - "the original was lost when Mystra's dying energy blasted the land like a million Shou cannons" You DO love me. :love: ;) :P
Daenaan 02-28-08, 01:26 AM	No offense, but the more of these "Countdown to the Realms" articles I read - the less likely I am to buy the new FRCS. The mix of ideas just looks terrible to me.
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 01:30 AM	Granted, I think it would have made a much better stand-alone setting, rather then ruining FR. It sounds VERY interesting... if it were on some other planet. However, I think Brian's article is a lot less of a 'smack-in-the-face' then the previous ones, and it even helps people get past the Spellplague WITHOUT having to do the silly century time-jump. Thats a big, fat 'kudos' to him, for trying to keep the 'old gaurd' happy. :)
Old Sage 02-28-08, 02:41 AM	Sakkors - When did this city come back? :confused: Last I read, it was sitting at the bottom of the Inner Sea... in ruins.You might want to read through Shadowbred. If you don't mind SPOILERS:- Sakkors was a psionic, sentient mythallar, so it survived the destruction of the city. The mythallar was the key to the whole thing. Essentially a team of shadovar led by one of the princes cast a lot of spells to collect and restore the city around the mythallar. So essentially, the city was rubble, but the princes cast tons of spells to bring it back together again, as the main "thrust" was the intact mythallar that was found. What year was Azoun V born?Azoun V is born in the nighttime hours of 11 Mirtul, 1371 DR. Azoun IV dies that same night, or at the very latest in the wee morning hours thereafter.
ElMorte 02-28-08, 03:07 AM	Sakkors - When did this city come back? :confused: Last I read, it was sitting at the bottom of the Inner Sea... in ruins. Wondered about that myself. Especially because i read that part two days ago.
Valgard 02-28-08, 03:22 AM	It's noticeable how this article was written by Mr. James, it makes me feel quite better now. Not only are the Realms changing because of the new rules, but because change in its flavor. Though I like the Realms more fantasy-looking and less Renaissance-looking, I don't see why the Realms need floating isles through its landscape. I would prefer a more Tolkienish fantasy setting rather than an Everquest-ish looking (in fact, more based in the creatures and the stories that you find rather than the landscape). In a similar theme, I have played Warcraft III and The Frozen Throne expansion pack (not World of Warcraft instead) and I don't see those similarities all people are saying about it... in fact, it's Warcraft what is inspired by other works. About the exarchs... I'm a bit disappointed. I don't see Nobanion as nothing to Silvanus. I'd rather liked to view him more as a nature-oriented associate to the Triad rather than a paladin-oriented servant of nature, and I don't know why the hell he is in the Material Plane. Another one: High fantasy doesn't mean that the Realms are turning into a magical steampunk setting. Eberron already has elemental-powered airships and trains, and that is not the direction set for the Realms. Instead, the landscape itself shall be spectacular, indescribable, striking, and magical.Have you found yourself trying to justify that this is not going to change to Eberron? Alediran does not think the same about it as yourselves.
Mula 02-28-08, 04:04 AM	Alediran seems to think that magical glowing rune-tattoos first appeared in Eberron. Or that magically altered wastelands was an Eberron original. They're both fantasy staples.
GreenKnight 02-28-08, 04:20 AM	In one of the sidebars: Exarchs (the name is a direct ripoff from Mage: the Awakening) Mage: The Awakening didn't invent the term "Exarch". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarch
Alediran 02-28-08, 06:11 AM	Mage: The Awakening didn't invent the term "Exarch". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarch I know, but they are using it left and right in the game and suddenly D&D gets the name too, instead of coming with something better, Champions would have sounded MUCH better. After all the "Exarchs" look like CHOSENS of X to me.
Aldareth 02-28-08, 06:37 AM	I know, but they are using it left and right in the game and suddenly D&D gets the name too, instead of coming with something better, Champions would have sounded MUCH better. After all the "Exarchs" look like CHOSENS of X to me. the Exarch to how it is refered in the artikel " Thought to be a favored champion of Silvanus, Nobanion now rules the forested realm of Gulthandor " is exactly what the wiki says about the byzantine exarchs..you can rant all you want... exarchs= rulers, covernors on the behalf of something stronger, greater, powerfuller... nobanion= exarch= ruler and if i am not wrong the title exarch is allready established in the realms, i think i read the highest ranking priests are called exarchs of " insert gods name"
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:43 AM	Does 'Cerulean' = 'Magic' now? -It all started in Magic of Incarnum... Humans become Eladrins? I thought the Gold and Silver Elves were becoming Eladrins... I'm totally confused at this point. -Uh...Blame the Spellplague! ;)
buzzard 02-28-08, 07:13 AM	I applaud WotC (and Brian specifically) for finally giving prominence to some deities other than Mystra, Shar or Cyric (although these two probably received too much attention because they were the only ones who could counter Mystra's efforts). Silvanus is another massively powerful deity and it's good to know that some events revolve around his clergy and followers. And I fell in love with "The Order of Blue Fire".
admcewen 02-28-08, 07:39 AM	Mournland Cyre was a strategic battleground in the Last War, and was host to some of the largest battles of that war. In the last years of the Last War, Cyre was suddenly, and inexplicably, destroyed. A not-quite-dead wasteland remains where Cyre lay, surrounded by a thick gray fog. It appears that Mournland is literally an open grave, where the bodies of deceased soldiers refuse to decay. The Dragonmarked Houses are thirteen extended families which control most business throughout Khorvaire. Within the houses, only a small percentage of every generation manifest dragonmarks, which are marks on the body that grant spell-like abilities to those born with them. These dragonmarks are designated by taking the Least, Lesser or Greater Dragonmark feat or taking levels in the Dragonmark Heir prestige class. There used to be thirteen dragonmarks but only twelve remain. Each family possesses only one type of mark, and only one or two races can manifest a particular type of mark. Additionally, only races listed in the Player's Handbook can manifest a dragonmark at all. With the exception of House Phiarlan and House Thuranni (which both possess the Mark of Shadow), each house exclusively has one type of dragonmark. Dragonmarks come in five forms: aberrant, least, lesser, greater, and Siberys. Aberrant dragonmarks are deviations from normal marks and are not recognized by the dragonmarked houses. People who have aberrant dragonmarks are commonly believed to have been warped by Khyber, the Dragon Below. Least, lesser, and greater dragonmarks can be gained by taking the appropriate feats or taking levels in the Dragonmark Heir prestige class. These types of marks must be taken in order. The Siberys mark is the greatest mark, but someone cannot have both a least, lesser, or greater mark along with a Siberys mark. A Siberys mark is gained by taking the Heir of Siberys prestige class. Another family line known as Vol possessed an additional dragonmark known as the Mark of Death, but that line was mostly destroyed in a conflict between dragons and other elves. Only one heir remains today (named Erandis d'Vol), but because she is a lich she cannot use her dragonmark. However, she tries to gather information to restore the mark through the Order of the Emerald Claw and the religion known as the Blood of Vol. The worst punishment for a member of a dragonmarked house is called excoriation. It is similar to excommunication in that the other members of the house are not allowed to have any contact with the excoriate under threat of severe punishment themselves. Excoriates may not even avail themselves of the publicly-available services their house provides. Excoriation is the punishment for only the worst offenses that dishonor the house. In prior times, the house would actually flay the dragonmark from the person's body. If the person survived excoriation, the missing dragonmark would regrow on a different part of the body and continue to function, but its use caused severe pain to the person.
Zanan 02-28-08, 09:07 AM	Overall, I like it. You see, the bad thing here is that I don't think you are joking. :rolleyes: Regarding Cerulean ... read Stardeep, it drips of that word, though I thought it was simple some Star Elvish word for something Star Elvish (clan, house etc.).
msatran 02-28-08, 09:08 AM	Wow. I'm thoroughly disgusted. I thought better of 4th edition than this. Hmm. Nobanion is now nothing more than a clone of Aslan, from the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe? I can't believe Wizards sanctions this nonsense! I know you guys want to capitalize on existing movie trends, but that's going a little far. Zalaznar Crinios an evil druid? Who has become a (BLEEPING) tree? You know, I thought evil plants were Talona, not Malar. :) Could there possibly be a more ridiculous idea under the sun? Vanity of Vanities, saith the preacher. All is vanity. I'm so disgusted I could vomit.
Fabius Maximus 02-28-08, 09:09 AM	Thank you, admcewen. Now I don't have to explain the differences. In fact, the Mournland is nothing like a "a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability", but a barren wasteland. Dragonmarks appear on specific individuals off several bloodlines, not through exposion to some magical anomaly. @Msatran: Nobanion always was an Aslan clone. It's just more obvious now. You just pick out two points out of a long article. Do you have nothing else to say, or did you just want to play doomsayer again but found nothing else?
msatran 02-28-08, 09:52 AM	@Msatran: Nobanion always was an Aslan clone. It's just more obvious now. Actually, it would have seemed more like a rant and less like an opinion. Personally, I like a little more SUBTLETY in my games than this, but you know, I guess some people need to be hit over the head with a two by four every day. I guess this really is living proof that evil will always win because good is stupid. So, since you were so kind as to demand more, I will give it to you. In spades. Halruaa is a magical wasteland: So's the rest of the gameworld. It makes me want to cry that this is gone. Halruaa was always like fairy tale wizard land, only with cruel politics, and obviously, Elaine was planning on writing more about it, but got spanked by the designers instead. No wonder she's so mad. While we already knew that this was going to happen, it doesn't make it suck any less. Really, the magical wasteland is Wizards of the Coast, where the solution to everything is a big explosion rather than moving a chesspiece on a board. If I want that, I'll play Hero System and a superhero RPG. The Changing Lands: Thanks for the cool name, Wizards. Too bad the game doesn't actually start until the lands stop changing. What ARE they changing anyway? Do we really need to be treated like babies with diapers? Cormyr: The Forest Kingdom is completely screwed. Alusair disappears. How lovely. It doesn't matter, she won't be around in a hundred years for people to care. I simply cannot express my disgust for the Spellplague and everything related to it enough. This can be summed up in these words. (Bleep you!) Knock Knock (Cthulhu shark). And your country was lucky. Only a THIRD of the wizardly population of the land went insane? A THIRD OF THE WIZARDS IN CORMYR WENT INSANE? So what's left of the country? Everything should be a charred, wasted mess. If I'm a gibbering, insane wizard of 15th level or higher, I can drop pave pennies all over the landscape until someone stops me, squashing towns, wrecking landscapes and baleful polymorphing goats into purple worms. This is ludicrous. Someone wasn't paying attention to just how many wizards there are. The Sea of Fallen Stars becomes an Underdark Sinkhole? Wow, that's kind of them. That was one of my favorite areas, those coasts, and now they're gone, too. I wonder if any of my players who have IC residences in the area will get to have them if they make it this far. The only reason this was done was "Drow! We need more drow!" Well, I don't! So go home! Prismatic Mountains, huh? What was wrong with the mountains that they had? Not psychedelic enough? Not exotic enough? Not Final Fantasy enough? This is absurd. HAH! Dimension Switch. I was disgusted enough with Ty Manther and his Dragonborn Homeboys, but this just nauseates me further. The Bullywugs harassing the Zhents? So a bunch of frogmen are capable of harming the Zhents more than all my PC's who work so hard, and have fought the Zhents for years, huh? Thanks, Wizards. I should start sending you guys a lump of coal at christmas. This is a gift worthy of the worst sort of dungeon mastering, the very type of dungeon mastering you say shouldn't be extolled. A more contemporary high fantasy environment? Psychedelia is not a contemporary fantasy environment!!!!!! The sixties should have STAYED there. The Chondalwood? What is wrong with a forest? Was it simply too much to ask to have a normal landscape ANYWHERE? These lands look like someone took MC Escher, distilled his brain, and injected it into Toril like a syringe full of suet, and then squeezed until the suet popped out. The Order of Blue Fire: So let me get this straight? There is an organization out there that believes that the Spellplague was GOOD? After what it did to the planet? I have a message for Wizards. NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE would believe this. There are places where a falling pot can kill the locals because floating forest chunks snapping or someone dumping a chamber pot out of a floating city would kill someone with the velocity damage. In order for a cult to be successful, it has to have a charismatic message. This is NOT charismatic. The Eldreth Veluuthra claim the Hullack Forest? With what skills? Tordynnar Rhaenvern can't cast spells either! He's screwed! And as awesome as Tordynnar is, he can't possibly stand up to a legion of Cormyr's best troops. Quite frankly, I don't think many of these villains in my game will make it this far, but then again, I don't think I'll ever be buying another Forgotten Realms sourcebook ever again. As cool as Brian is. As cool as Brian Cortijo is, I would rather swap spit in a warm shower with a Draegloth than play in this world.
Alediran 02-28-08, 09:58 AM	Too bad I can't rant as good as msatran because my english isn't native.
Uzzy 02-28-08, 10:14 AM	Heh. So I'm thinking that WoTC are the Order of Blue Fire, while most of us on here are the Guardians of the Weave. Anyway, these articles are funny. Though I only think of them like that to prevent myself from crying. Either way, it's saving me money to buy other things in 2008, like Pathfinder and A Song of Ice and Fire RPG. So thanks!
Green Elven Vampire 02-28-08, 10:47 AM	I thought that things couldn't get any worse... I was dead wrong!! This article made every one in my gaming group more convinced than ever never to buy any 4ED products related to FR.
Boda 02-28-08, 11:03 AM	So, ... if the sea of fallen stars will be drained into the glimmer, then the glimmer sea will grow, right. So all underdark cities close by will be underwater? So the plagueland thing gets mulhorandi, unther, threskel, chessenta, shaar, thay amd aglarond. But does it get the great rift, luiren, murghrom, var, estagund and durpar? If halruaa blows up and becomes ocean, what of lapal league, tashalar, thindol, mhair, dambrath? So if occur large landscapping in the changelands, then its likely that underdark cities like llhur drier(the drow slime worshipping city), tlindhet, undrekthroz, take nasty hits also, right? Personally, i dont get why all these mostly unique realms get wiped out for the sake of originality, and yet, bloodstone, impiltur, tethyr and cormyr are mostly left standing(since they're all conceptually the same).
GothicDan 02-28-08, 11:04 AM	Thought to be a favored champion of Silvanus, Nobanion now rules the forested realm of Gulthandor #@&$(@*#@(#*U!#@(Y^&@#!!!
Rauric 02-28-08, 11:25 AM	I love the guys who come here and say "Now I am really not buying 4e FR!" Dude, there are a ton of threads with you guys saying you won't be buying it already. We get the point. Anyway a rant is just like a tanrum but for adults.;)
Alediran 02-28-08, 11:27 AM	#@&$(@*#@(#*U!#@(Y^&@#!!! Told you. First time I see GD talk like that. :D And he is still in that shape only because it's one of Ed's originals. Had he entered the setting a little later he wouldn't even exist. I love the guys who come here and say "Now I am really not buying 4e FR!" Dude, there are a ton of threads with you guys saying you won't be buying it already. We get the point. Anyway a rant is just like a tanrum but for adults.;) What we mean with that is each time they open their mouths the chances that we buy any of their crap diminish. I dedicate the next son for that friend called Forgotten Realms that was completely butchered by WotC's greed: Nightwish - End Of All Hope It is the end of all hope To lose the child, the faith To end all the innocence To be someone like me This is the birth of all hope To have what I once had This life unforgiven It will end with a birth No will to wake for this morn To see another black rose born Deathbed is slowly covered with snow Angels, they fell first but I'm still here Alone as they are drawing near In heaven my masterpiece will finally be sung Wounded is the deer that leaps highest And my wound it cuts so deep Turn off the light and let me pull the plug Mandylion without a face Deathwish without a prayer End of hope End of love End of time The rest is silence
msatran 02-28-08, 11:45 AM	I know why it's called the Year of Blue Fire at last! Too much Hot and Spicy Salsa and Blue Corn tortilla chips. That will put a blue fire into anyone!
Rauric 02-28-08, 11:49 AM	There are people here on the boards that have expressed their dislike for the new stuff. They have ranted and raged about how much they disliked it. The whole time I was assuming they would never pick up the new FR book because of the venom in their posts. After months of those posts those people are saying there is still a chance they will pick up the book? Congrats, you just answered the reason for the changes. It is because many gamers who were tied to FR will pick it up one way or the other. Some will use it as a game supplement while others will use it as ammunition for their anti-FR4e posts. Some people will pick it up because it has FR on it. Anyway that one the reasons for the change IMO.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 11:50 AM	I love the guys who come here and say "Now I am really not buying 4e FR!" Dude, there are a ton of threads with you guys saying you won't be buying it already. We get the point. Anyway a rant is just like a tanrum but for adults. The fact that you're indirectly insulting one's maturity is made moot by your lack of spelling skills! That being said: educated passion over lazy apathy, any day. NIETZSCHE WOULD NOT BE AMUSED! PS: I failed a physics test this morning, drew comics on it instead, and then accidentally bit the tip of my tongue almost off. I'm a bit antsy.
Alediran 02-28-08, 11:51 AM	There are people here on the boards that have expressed their dislike for the new stuff. They have ranted and raged about how much they disliked it. The whole time I was assuming they would never pick up the new FR book because of the venom in their posts. After months of those posts those people are saying there is still a chance they will pick up the book? Congrats, you just answered the reason for the changes. It is because many gamers who were tied to FR will pick it up one way or the other. Some will use it as a game supplement while others will use it as ammunition for their anti-FR4e posts. Some people will pick it up because it has FR on it. Anyway that one the reasons for the change IMO. They would never, the difference from before is that the never is even bigger. Just like Vaarsuvius' rant when Elan tried to convert him to the faith of Banjo. The owner of the LGS already agreed with me to start a book burning every time he recieved 4th edition material. He'll also let me read the books for free to make reviews for The Realms Vault. That being said: educated passion over lazy apathy, any day. "Apathy is death" -Kreya, Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic II PS: I failed a physics test this morning, drew comics on it instead, and then accidentally bit the tip of my tongue almost off. I'm a bit antsy. And today I failed a Web Services exam for the five stars DCE .NET developer program that Microsoft has, not counting that today we have heavy raining in Buenos Aires and that work has been slow today, so I'm in the same field.
Iakhovas 02-28-08, 11:52 AM	What is it exactly that frustrates you about Nobanion GD? He is still a demigod afterall. And no lore about him has been invalidated as far as I can see.
buzzard 02-28-08, 12:07 PM	The owner of the LGS already agreed with me to start a book burning every time he recieved 4th edition material. Yes, the owner is actually going to pay for material only to destroy it. :rolleyes:
Fabius Maximus 02-28-08, 12:07 PM	Actually, it would have seemed more like a rant and less like an opinion. Personally, I like a little more SUBTLETY in my games than this, but you know, I guess some people need to be hit over the head with a two by four every day. I guess this really is living proof that evil will always win because good is stupid. If you like subtlety, then you should get rid of Nobanion and a lot more stuff in the Realms altogether. In fact, you should choose another setting. Halruaa is a magical wasteland: So's the rest of the gameworld. Wrong. The Changing Lands: Thanks for the cool name, Wizards. Too bad the game doesn't actually start until the lands stop changing. What ARE they changing anyway? If you'd read the article, you'd know. Cormyr: The Forest Kingdom is completely screwed.Wrong again. A THIRD OF THE WIZARDS IN CORMYR WENT INSANE? Wrong again. Read the frakking article. The Sea of Fallen Stars becomes an Underdark Sinkhole? Wow, that's kind of them. That was one of my favorite areas, those coasts, and now they're gone, too. I wonder if any of my players who have IC residences in the area will get to have them if they make it this far. The only reason this was done was "Drow! We need more drow!" Well, I don't! So go home! I'd rather say that a lot of Drow just drowned... I like the coastal areas, too. (I don't give a frak about Chondath and the Old Empires, though) But they are still there, only without water. Prismatic Mountains, huh? What was wrong with the mountains that they had? Not psychedelic enough? Not exotic enough? Not Final Fantasy enough? This is absurd. HAH! Dimension Switch. I was disgusted enough with Ty Manther and his Dragonborn Homeboys, but this just nauseates me further. What has FF to do with this? The Bullywugs harassing the Zhents? So a bunch of frogmen are capable of harming the Zhents more than all my PC's who work so hard, and have fought the Zhents for years, huh? Thanks, Wizards. I should start sending you guys a lump of coal at christmas. This is a gift worthy of the worst sort of dungeon mastering, the very type of dungeon mastering you say shouldn't be extolled. Harassing doesn't mean harming. A more contemporary high fantasy environment? Psychedelia is not a contemporary fantasy environment!!!!!! The sixties should have STAYED there. The Chondalwood? What is wrong with a forest? Was it simply too much to ask to have a normal landscape ANYWHERE? These lands look like someone took MC Escher, distilled his brain, and injected it into Toril like a syringe full of suet, and then squeezed until the suet popped out. *sigh* Don't use this stretch of land if it bugs you so. And try to stop the hyperbole. The Order of Blue Fire: So let me get this straight? There is an organization out there that believes that the Spellplague was GOOD? After what it did to the planet? I have a message for Wizards. NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE would believe this. Waco, Baghwan, Scientology. Do I have to go on? The Eldreth Veluuthra claim the Hullack Forest? With what skills? Tordynnar Rhaenvern can't cast spells either! He's screwed! And as awesome as Tordynnar is, he can't possibly stand up to a legion of Cormyr's best troops. That's the only thing that make me raise my eyebrows in wonder.
Zanan 02-28-08, 12:10 PM	What is it exactly that frustrates you about Nobanion GD? He is still a demigod afterall. And no lore about him has been invalidated as far as I can see. What causes me more concern is that what will be done to him, will be done to other deities as well. Still, since they cannot simply have 100 of the 150odd deities evaporate, there will be a century of so of them hanging about, whatever their status will be. Thus, we may have some munchkin-epic-super heroes going on a god-hunt for whatever reason (others before have tried their luck with archdevils and abyssal lords), only to be pegged back by the demigods/you-name-it patron(ess) here and there. Will that change anything for the setting as such? Maybe. We have had (not least within the novels or recent campaigns) heroes killing off epic opponents, at least according to the GHotR. Does that spell a new series of adventures where our new 4E-style super-heroes have a chance to change the Realms forever? I'd bet my bottom Euro, if I was willing. For that better/higher/faster/greater plague I call 4E will simply know no bounds. After having read the first two instalments on the Realms, I have come to the conclusion that the Spellplague was not simply meant to free the wizard players' characters from the shackles of Mystra's edicts. It was simply to spell-shatter the setting as we know it. The more I read about it - try as I might - the Forgotten Realms are only the Realms in name. I've tried my luck in various gaming worlds but always returned to the Realms I came to love over the years. Maybe it is a bit premature, but as it stands now, I'll hardly have any of my characters set a foot into these new Realms, nor will I touch 4E rule material for some time to come. For they are simply not the Realms I love.
Alediran 02-28-08, 12:10 PM	Yes, the owner is actually going to pay for material only to destroy it. :rolleyes: He'll buy only one of each, to take the material I need to my reviews and then burn them. He loves FR before the Spellplague and will never sell any FR 4th ed.
msatran 02-28-08, 12:13 PM	Fabius: Cormyr is struck hard, but not so violently as many other nations. Roughly one third of all Wizards of War are slain, driven mad, or simply have gone missing in the year following Mystra's death. There we go! One third! To say that the rest of the nation isn't similarly affected is categorically ridiculous. That's like saying that the land selectively targeted only the army with the Spellplague. However, we also know that that's impossible. Perhaps it is your turn to read the "Frakkin" article. Now I'll respond to the rest of your points, in order, and with less of a heated tone. Arrogance only begets bad debate, so let's debate, shall we? Halruaa is a magical wasteland, so's the rest of the world? Well, let's start with the obvious: Mystra is gone. That's a magical wasteland as far as I'm concerned. I've said this before, I'll say it again. They can lick my orb, suck my staff, and blow my wand. Taking this out of the game makes it not Dungeons and Dragons ever again. Let's add to this: Floating Forests, and other manifestations that seem like they came out of a crackhouse run by sixties love children than a Dungeons and Dragons game. The world is a magical wasteland, because normal people can't survive in it. The Changing Lands: I did read the article, and I know what it said. Obviously, sarcasm is completely beyond you. Cormyr: The Eldreth Veluuthra hold the Hullack Forest? After a hundred years of that, there wouldn't be a human between the forest and the High Road. Every single town that wasn't a major city would be living in poverty, or Cormyr would have to devote it's entire army to militarily patrolling towns to make sure their HUMAN leaders don't get assassinated. It's amazing how little you think about the dynamic impact of a terrorist organization like the Eldreth Veluuthra when you can look at Iraq to see how one can actually work. The Prismatic Mountains: What does Final Fantasy have to do with this? It's the sort of thing you'd see in a video game designed for twelve year olds. Apparently NATURE is the enemy now. I know people are swapping their homes for Mcmansions without yards in real life, but that's no reason to perpetuate the syndrome. This LANDSCAPE DOES NOT FUNCTION EXCEPT IN THE CRACKED MINDS OF THE DERANGED! Bullywugs Harassing the Zhents: The article even says it causes the Zhents setbacks. (Though how the Zhents function with no wizards either would have been more worthy of a couple paragraphs.) The Chondalwood: You know, everyone has oratorical techniques they use. Apparently, hyperbole is not allowed anymore, no matter how effective the analogy. Yes, it was gross and nasty, but it did get the point across. Saying "Don't use it" is irrelevant, because my PC's have so much invested in the current realms that this completely screws them, and there are close to 70 active player characters. The Cult of Blue Fire: Yes, there are dozens of stupid people willing to believe stuff, but the point is that you have just as many people who remember how much it sucked and are old enough to tell people so! Someone should have killed these people within months of their inception. Adventurers don't stop adventuring just because some blue lights appeared in the sky. This organization is neither monolithic nor unstoppable, and a well placed bowl of syrup of Ipecak can slaughter an entire group of cultists.
dav 02-28-08, 12:23 PM	Thank you, admcewen. Now I don't have to explain the differences. In fact, the Mournland is nothing like a "a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability", but a barren wasteland. Dragonmarks appear on specific individuals off several bloodlines, not through exposion to some magical anomaly. @Msatran: Nobanion always was an Aslan clone. It's just more obvious now. You just pick out two points out of a long article. Do you have nothing else to say, or did you just want to play doomsayer again but found nothing else? The Realms is being changed because of uninformed perception (Baker admitted as much in the ask him thread many many pages back). It seems thats what the designers pay attention too. So really why shouldnt anyone who liked the way the Realms were do the same thing? As he said in that thread, perception is truth. And it obviously didnt matter that the perception was founded from a lack of even having opened the FRCS of ANY edition.
Iakhovas 02-28-08, 12:28 PM	Msatran I believe we have a difference of opinion on just how many high level wizards live in Cormyr. I suggest to you that the majority of War Wizards in particular were 10th level or lower. Magic has never been taboo in the Realms but every other Joe on the street isn't a mage either. In any event, the Wailing Years are more than 80 years in the past. Any destruction caused by plague-maddened wizards has likely been restored over the intervening years.
Zanan 02-28-08, 12:38 PM	As the Weave unravels throughout the month of Nightal in the Year of Blue Fire, these wild magic zones are quickly replaced with dead magic zones until one day arcane magic ceases to function altogether. Why should that happen? Not in-setting, but with reference to the editions? I mean, 4E wizards will cast arcane magic, weave-bound or not. There is IMHO no reason whatsoever to deny pre-Spellplague arcane casters their spellcasting ability in-setting even after the plague occured. Unless, of course, WotC wants us to think that the post-Spellplague Realms does not work with 3,5E any longer. (Which is somewhoat absurd, as all these neat wands of fireball and cloaks of elvenkind all work ...) BTW ... after reading the article again, I noted that there are references to various places, items and creatures - even in regions Spellplague-warped, claiming that they are ancient, long lost or nigh-forgotten. I'd change that style of writing, since 100 years barely fall into that category and we don't want to mix 1E - 3,5E pre-Spellplague Realmslore (itemwise) with 4E stuff, will we? Especially, as we all know that arcane magics were changed oh-so dramatically ...
Mula 02-28-08, 12:38 PM	There we go! One third! To say that the rest of the nation isn't similarly affected is categorically ridiculous. That's like saying that the land selectively targeted only the army with the Spellplague. However, we also know that that's impossible. Perhaps it is your turn to read the "Frakkin" article. Of course, you said a third went insane and thus would cause massive havoc in the land, whereas the article said a third went insane, missing, or died.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 12:39 PM	Do we have any actual stats on the War Wizards and their levels? That being said, a single 15th level Wizard could easily enough waste an entire village in a few minutes.
msatran 02-28-08, 12:43 PM	Okay, Brian, I can accept that point, but on a prima facie level, it only takes two or three of these 15th level guys to wreak unprecedented levels of destruction. How many Fireballs can a 10th level mage cast? He can cast a whole bunch of them. If he's got an INT of 20, he can cast 12. (Of course, he probably only has 2, maybe 3, but still. Burn a few barns, or a few warehouses in an urban area with flammable materials, and you have a serious problem.)That's ONE guy. Now do it 665 more times. I fail to see how anyone under 12th level could survive these effects given the fact that D+D is a game of creatures with hit points. :) Cities would be woefully underpopulated. And don't forget, it only takes a 7th level Wizard to cast Confusion in a crowded military procession. :) Sure, there are other guys who might take that wizard out, but the damage is already done. My problem, Brian, isn't the lore. The lore itself is sterling and I applaud your brilliant effort to put a good spin on the D+D equivalent of Mad Cow Disease, and you didn't design this game, so I can hardly fault you for the love you're showing. It's the flavor that goes with it. I have literally zero ability to convert to 4th edition without ruining my entire gameworld, and this is just more pudding proof.
msatran 02-28-08, 12:44 PM	Do we have any actual stats on the War Wizards and their levels? That being said, a single 15th level Wizard could easily enough waste an entire village in a few minutes. Yeah, there are actually stats on a few of the cities somewhere, but I don't remember where they are.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 12:55 PM	I've never been much of a Cormyr buff, so I have little resources on it, and all of my D&D stuff (or most of it) is packed away in a dusty closet, anyway. But I wonder if Brian researched the numbers before writing the article? (I'm not being accusatory in this, but rather, Brian's researching skills are already established as respectable, so I wouldn't have put it past him.) I know when I was making various WoD settings/stories, I'd research every known reference to given Supernaturals in an area throughout all published WoD time (Tzimisce, for example, of Eastern Europe, starting with Yorak, then Triglav, Bylebog, etc., making notes of all Childer, their ages, the areas they were in, etc.), and compile information in such a way before even starting to write the lore. This actually only takes a few days, even less depending on ability to access material easily.
Meldread 02-28-08, 12:59 PM	Well after reading the article, I do not think things are as bad as I first thought. There are some concepts that I like and some that I do not like, but I can see the potential of the new Realm's. The flavor is... interesting, though not something I'd normally go for, but I am open to it. Overall, it is better than the last article that was released. At this point in time I am open to the possibility that I could maybe accept and game in the 4E Realm's. Although, I'll have to see the finished product to say for certain. What I would really like to see, though, is my ability to change the setting (particular areas) to suit my tastes without it breaking everything. That is one potential benefit of 4th Edition and the Spellplague. Good job, Brian.
Mula 02-28-08, 01:02 PM	Who cares how many 15-level wizards Cormyr has? A bunch of wizards in Cormyr went mad and bad stuff TM happened, but in the end, the land survived and even annexed a few places. Teh End (until players come of course). It's all pretty cool.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 01:03 PM	Mula, you prove my point with every post you make. Thank you. :)
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 01:05 PM	You see, the bad thing here is that I don't think you are joking. :rolleyes:THE ARTICLE, NOT 4e FR!!! Brian's article is far less damaging then the previous two have been, and let us not forget, he was given an outline of what the world looks like in 1485, and has to work with THAT. He didn't create most of this stuff, he just reported it, and he did a very good job at that. He also gave a lot of folks a way of continuing their games past the plague years, without the silly timejump, which means we can still use a great deal of our old storylines and NPCs in the new environment, and use the 4e rules to boot (if we so desire). Unlike the previous articles, this one gave us OPTIONS. I still think that a lot is borrowed from Eberron, despite what some people are posting. Obviously WotC plans on putting 'Rune Tattoos' into the core books, and every setting will call them something different. The mechanics will be identical (one Rules for all, remember?), but the lore revolving around them will be different (basically, just the name and how you get them). My main Pet peeve - Someone is a 'Yes' fan, and decided that should be what the setting looks like? Album covers from a third-rate band depicting cartoonish, drug-inspired fantasia? I always hated the Yes covers, so I'm getting agida over it. Although I don't mind the concept of 'floating bits of land', I certainly hope we don't get childiish cartoon-drawings to depict the Realms; it's a VERY bad fit. Maybe something more like this - http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/073/1/a/Floating_Island_by_dragengothika.jpg Although that picture certainly isn't the best piece of artwork, it gives the general idea (I've seen much better, but I was in a hurry to find something). And if you guys need more fuel for the 'fire' - 'Waterless' Ports? Empty Sea basins with cities left high and dry, overlooking the vast sandy expanses? Sounds just like Athas/Dark Sun to me. ;)
Green Elven Vampire 02-28-08, 01:13 PM	Hey, I'll buy 4ED realms material... just in case I run out of toilet paper and am too lazy to buy a few more rolls.
Jiggawha 02-28-08, 01:15 PM	overall I don't like it (except the genasi realm and Abolethic Sovereignty, intrigues), changes to the Sea of Fallen Stars are the worst, what was the point of that, other stuff that pisses me off, Emerald Enclave gone, total destruction of Halruaa, why total; everything returns, and in a similar way, some creativity please weird stuff: Bullywugs (lol, poor Zhents), Eldreth Veluuthra (they're weak, care to explain), Temple Acheron (cool, but what's with the name, Bane is more warlike now?) what about Westgate and Hlondeth? the Fellowship of the Purple Staff? canal? there ware around 5 15 or greater lvl. war wizards in sources so far but all these cataclysms happened a hundred years ago, maybe things will return to normal
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 01:15 PM	I plan to buy the 4e FRCG... I'm just going to rip out the pages concerning the new Empire of Netheril and the Shades and mail them back to Rich Baker... With a few comments scribbled on them... ;)
Mula 02-28-08, 01:16 PM	Mula, you prove my point with every post you make. Thank you. :) I know. It's simulationism vs. narrativism.
Iakhovas 02-28-08, 01:17 PM	Those pictures you find and/or create always crack me up Mark!
GothicDan 02-28-08, 01:18 PM	I know. It's simulationism vs. narrativism. Interesting way to put it. I like both, and feel that you don't have to give up the former to effectively do the latter.
Mula 02-28-08, 01:26 PM	I like simulationism to a degree, but not when it gets in the way of creating a fun story. How many 15th-level wizards Cormyr has? I just don't think that has any relevance whatsoever what sort of story comes out of the event. Besides, I think counting how many levels wizards in Cormyr has when constructing a scenario is about gamism.
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 01:26 PM	Those pictures you find and/or create always crack me up Mark!That one I found, by putting 'floating Land' into the DeviantART search engine... it was the first decent one I came across, but like I said, I've seen WAY better depicting floating cities and chunks of terrain. In fact, while looking for that, I came across a 'brush set' depicting floating land for Photoshop, so now I can really go to town. :dancin: I only do about half the pictures I post myself - I'm more of a cartographer then an artist. BTW, I found an excellent illustrator for my CK articles... she very enthusiastic about working with us. :D
msatran 02-28-08, 01:33 PM	There's a big difference between "Creating a fun story" and "Playing in a world where you are surrounded by other people." This is compounded by the fact that I run a game where "There's no such thing as an NPC." You don't know what level they are, and they don't know what level you are. What's acceptable to one person really isn't to another. And that creates a kind of caution, because even though that farmer is just a farmer, he could have a brother or a cousin who's a high level priest of a vengeful god if you prank him, or put a dress on his pig, or what have you. Robbing the very rich in my game is very stupid, because if you don't find AND loot everything they have, they will probably still have enough money to hire adventurers and diviners to get their stuff back and divine where the PC's are. Is it a great "Storytelling game?"" Not necessarily. But does it teach caution, forethought, good planning, and reward more than "Just go in..." Absolutely. That's why I hate the 4th edition logic, where there's an obvious "PC tee shirt." I'm not sure, in 4th edition, that such is even simulatable.
yarethon 02-28-08, 01:45 PM	I know that most people here will disagree with me, but.. if the death of Mystra will let other deities ( such as Nonbanion and Sylvanus) have a more active role, then bye bye Mystra. It was your time to go. I have enjoyed most of the article. I was a little worried about the prismatic mountain, but the reference to shadowdale ( wich I originally missed), made me feel better about it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 01:48 PM	Granted, I think it would have made a much better stand-alone setting, rather then ruining FR. It sounds VERY interesting... if it were on some other planet. That's more or less my opinion about the whole thing.:) Not every setting has to be super-fantastic with flying islands in every other square mile. I liked the nature of the Realms as it was.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 01:53 PM	You see, the bad thing here is that I don't think you are joking. :rolleyes: Regarding Cerulean ... read Stardeep, it drips of that word, though I thought it was simple some Star Elvish word for something Star Elvish (clan, house etc.). "Cerulean" is just a fancy term for a certain shade of blue.:) It's a real word.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 01:55 PM	And I fell in love with "The Order of Blue Fire". How? It was mentioned (and I guess introduced) in the article, but I couldn't find any details about what it actually is. There wasn't much to "fall in love" with.
msatran 02-28-08, 01:58 PM	Don't you understand? No information is the new Realmslore. Now DMs can do what they want, and all the people who used to buy the sourcebooks just for the lore have to make it up, too! :) That's why LK is freaking out.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 02:15 PM	What is it exactly that frustrates you about Nobanion GD? He is still a demigod afterall. And no lore about him has been invalidated as far as I can see. Well, he used to be Lawful Good. Now, he's "unaligned". Maybe not a big deal, but that was one difference that jumped out at me.
Involverri 02-28-08, 02:18 PM	This article was... a surprise to say the least. I went into it fully expecting the same catastrophic tidbits from Year of the Ageless One and Magic in the Forgotten Realms, and while I wasn't pleased with a certain revelation in there, it's shocking I... *liked* this update. :mymy: The good... Not only did it reveal Nobanion wasn't axed in the great deific cleansing of 4e, but his presence isn't dramatically less prominent than before. To top it off Silvanus lives... a god everyone in my group feared would be booted amidst the whole anti-interloper crusade goin' on. :w00t: The turn the Emerald Enclave has taken is frighteningly similar to their increasingly heavy handed approach in my campaign. Will we ever discover Shinthala Deepcrest's fate? Since she is no longer Grand Cabal of what remains of the Enclave, I assume she was challenged by an ever crazier Shadowmoon at some point or died in a foray into the Changing Lands. I suppose there's also the possibility Shinthala succumbed to old age; except she was a Hierophant and chosen of Silvanus so I'm not readily buying into that just yet. ;) Regardless, I'm glad to see the largest collection of mainland druids were not wholly obliterated in the wake of the Spellplague. It's also nice to read the Chondalwood and its satyr residents are thriving. The bad... The whole concept of Exarchs puts me off. Nobanion is an old favorite. Seeing his continued existence come with a shiny bullseye worries me. Ok, so nearly all FR deities are in danger of death by novelist or game supplement. What bothers me about Exarchs is a group of RPGA players might someday kill Nobanion or another personal favorite; especially if they're set up as tempting epic level targets for a party. Perhaps I don't quite understand how the RPGA works. (Umm... it's a network of players whose in-character impacts on a setting can affect canon? Yeah, I never bothered to read up on them. :p ) There were also minor things I felt indifferent towards. Motes? Meh... :bored: Overall this was an uplifting read. Thanks to Brian James for writing it, and for giving back this DM/Player a glimmer of hope. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 02:29 PM	I like the coastal areas, too. (I don't give a frak about Chondath and the Old Empires, though) But they are still there, only without water. Then they aren't "coastal areas" anymore.:rolleyes:
Iakhovas 02-28-08, 02:31 PM	Someone didn't like the Exarch sidebar. It's been removed. Maybe I said something I shouldn't have. :hides:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 02:39 PM	What I would really like to see, though, is my ability to change the setting (particular areas) to suit my tastes without it breaking everything. That is one potential benefit of 4th Edition and the Spellplague. Everyone has always had the ability to change the setting to their taste (and yes, you can do it without "breaking everything"). You don't need a Spellplague to be able to do that.
msatran 02-28-08, 02:44 PM	Someone didn't like the Exarch sidebar. It's been removed. Maybe I said something I shouldn't have. :hides: Uh, oh. Ao's back, and now he's an EDITOR! :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 02:45 PM	That's why I hate the 4th edition logic, where there's an obvious "PC tee shirt." That's an imaginative way of putting it.:) People, bear with me, I'm not good at "multi-quoting".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 02:46 PM	I know that most people here will disagree with me, but.. if the death of Mystra will let other deities ( such as Nonbanion and Sylvanus) have a more active role, then bye bye Mystra. It was your time to go. I think that statement is based on a faulty premise. Just because we aren't shown much about certain gods in the most recent products doesn't mean said gods are "inactive" in the setting. Even if that were the case, you don't need to kill one god to focus more on another.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 02:49 PM	Don't you understand? No information is the new Realmslore. Now DMs can do what they want, and all the people who used to buy the sourcebooks just for the lore have to make it up, too! :) That's why LK is freaking out. I just think it's funny to fall in love with a new group where nothing was said about their origins, goals, and whatnot--all we really know is the name of the group. If you can fall in love with a new element of the setting that has almost no information revealed about it, that means it's just as valid to hate a new element of the setting with very little revealed about it, as well.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 02:55 PM	Not only did it reveal Nobanion wasn't axed in the great deific cleansing of 4e, but his presence isn't dramatically less prominent than before. ... But he doesn't have a clergy... Which is sort of the point of a divine figure.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 02:58 PM	What is it exactly that frustrates you about Nobanion GD? He is still a demigod afterall. And no lore about him has been invalidated as far as I can see. Demigods, as far as we know, don't have clergies. And I don't like the idea of him needing to rely on a higher up (be it Torm or whoever) to grant spells to his clergy. Who's he a 'Saint' figure of? He's had little mythological history with any but Malar. This is a big thing to me, personally, since I've had Paladins and Clerics of Nobanion, and also made entirely new mechanics for aspects of his clergy. The lion-figure is HUGE in Indo-European Mythology and beyond. There's Chinese symbolism, Roman, there's the Lion Gates of Mycenae, and so on. Aslan's only the latest in this reiteration of Noble/Regal Lion figures, and it makes me sad that people are so reducing Nobanion to be a simulacrum of Aslan, when the most blatant analogy between them (the Jesus-esque reincarnation metaphor) isn't at all present in Nobanion's history. I'm sorry if it seems I'm overreacting, Brian, but this is a huge deal to me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 02:59 PM	Ok, so nearly all FR deities are in danger of death by novelist or game supplement. Not that that wasn't the case before. See the Lady Penitent trilogy (although, deity deaths aren't done by the whim of the authors, they are either ordered or approved of by WotC).
yarethon 02-28-08, 03:10 PM	I think that statement is based on a faulty premise. Just because we aren't shown much about certain gods in the most recent products doesn't mean said gods are "inactive" in the setting. Even if that were the case, you don't need to kill one god to focus more on another. I understand your point, but the fact is that a considerable number of plots went around Mystra and her chosen. Simply because they were so very popular. Could it be fixed without killing Mystra? Probably, but I am happy to see her go. In her latest incarnation, she was very inconsistent with the role of magic goddes. Maybe the other gods were not inactive, but Mystra was too active.
Landro 02-28-08, 03:10 PM	... But he doesn't have a clergy... Which is sort of the point of a divine figure.That's not how I read it. I was under the impression that his "clergy" venerated him, although in reality he was a conduit for Silvanus' divine power rather than having it of his own. A small difference in real terms to the people getting the spells. So he's more like a "real world" saint in some regards than a divine power himself - he gets venerated, he's just not the top of the holy food-chain.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 03:13 PM	Which is part of the reason I dislike the change... I could never, ever see Nobanion as a Druid, much less serving Silvanus. I had a hard time swallowing the Lion of Talisid PrC in Book of Exalted Deeds being Druid-based. Let alone this. Note that this is ENTIRELY PERSONAL. I actually don't think this spoils much Realms' consistency or play, or affects the world on an overall level drastically: Nobanion wasn't significant, and barely known outside of the Vilhon Reach and the Shaar, etc. It truly is something that just personally depresses and enrages me. I'm separating personal dislikes from the vision of the Realms, overall.
Involverri 02-28-08, 03:17 PM	... But he doesn't have a clergy... Which is sort of the point of a divine figure. He has followers. Most of their spells are not granted directly by Nobanion, but going by the now missing sidebar text, his "clergy" are loyal to him. Beyond that one little detail which mortal followers might not comprehend to begin with, his place is essentially unchanged. Does a follower of Nobanion need him to be an actual deity to see him as a divine figure? Or is it enough that a real god empower him to nigh divine levels? He is still ostensibly worshipped within his demense and provides for his followers. The sole difference is the magical component of that succor coming from another god. Maybe that doesn't make him a divine figure in the strictest sense but the character is still more or less who he was before.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 03:18 PM	I understand your point, but the fact is that a considerable number of plots went around Mystra and her chosen. Simply because they were so very popular. I agree, they are popular. It makes sense to write novels about characters that "sell". Could it be fixed without killing Mystra? Probably, but I am happy to see her go. In her latest incarnation, she was very inconsistent with the role of magic goddes. I disagree. Maybe the other gods were not inactive, but Mystra was too active. I disagree.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 03:20 PM	Not to me, or how I interpreted things. This may be because I somewhat upped his importance a little, but this points out WotC's flawed plan: destroying any piece of the Realms rather than dealing with what's there more runs the high chance that someone, somewhere, will be disappointed. My Nobanion in my Realms would never be subservient to Silvanus. It makes no sense to me. Lions are royalty, noble, regal, and fierce - they are not Druids. Heracles's slaying of the lion and taking his regalia was a huge sign of this, as Heracles was seen first and foremost as symbolic of mankind dominating the world around him and paving the way for civilization. The lion became part of who Heracles, the harbinger of civilization, was. The Lion Gates of Mycenae guarded what was one of the largest walled cities/settlements of the ancient Archaic world. I cannot see Lions as being linked to Druids in any way. I'm sorry, guys. This is what happens when I've been studying history and mythology obsessively, especially lately. You guys may not think that mechanics affect a game's lore, but this is clearly not true. We've seen on these very boards where people have said, "I don't want to worship X or Y, he's only a demigod." (I'm thinking of Velsharoon, specifically.) Culture doesn't evolve by somehow blocking part of its knowledge off from the rest; things mingle and mix into each other. You cannot deny it. This depreciates who I feel Nobanion is. Yes, now someone can call me a zealot, if they want. And you know what? I see no reason to promote Nobanion to a Lesser God, either, especially since Torm's going to be a Greater, and he already has weak leonine imagery. So the only possibility is to keep him a barely divine Demigod. Which makes my image of the world basically incompatible with 4E's ruleset, actually. I'm surprised I didn't realize that earlier.
Involverri 02-28-08, 03:28 PM	Not that that wasn't the case before. See the Lady Penitent trilogy (although, deity deaths aren't done by the whim of the authors, they are either ordered or approved of by WotC). I see the Lady Penitent Trilogy as a thinly veiled launching pad for the new Realms. You're not wrong... those events technically take place in 3e. However, I find them and the last bits of GHotR unacceptable to such a degree, that I've mentally divorced them from 3e. :p I realize WotC has to approve major changes to the setting, but the fact Rich Baker has already said another RSE is a possibility if the right story comes along makes me feel only a select few deities are truly safe from an author's whims. All a writer needs to do is convince the book department and... :weep: I'm pessimistic that way.
yarethon 02-28-08, 03:28 PM	I agree, they are popular. It makes sense to write novels about characters that "sell". It does, but I am not worried about selling WoC books. That is not my job. All I am saying is that the setting itself is too good to be overtly centered on Mystra. I think that was a waste. My opinion anyway. I disagree. I disagree. That is your right. :) But let me ask you something then... just out of curiosity. Is there something you like in the new 4e?
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 03:38 PM	Regarding Cerulean ... read Stardeep, it drips of that word, though I thought it was simple some Star Elvish word for something Star Elvish (clan, house etc.). -The Servants of the Cerulean Sign are an organization lifted directly from Lords of Madness.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 03:40 PM	Too bad I can't rant as good as msatran because my english isn't native. -He certainly has the best rants.
oden131 02-28-08, 03:46 PM	i don't play wow but it seems to me they are remaking the realms like the time of madness in the wheel of time series, all the wizards causing destruction stuff, at least thats the feeling im getting
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 03:47 PM	Don't you understand? No information is the new Realmslore. Now DMs can do what they want, and all the people who used to buy the sourcebooks just for the lore have to make it up, too! :) That's why LK is freaking out. -I am?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 03:55 PM	It makes no sense to me. Lions are royalty, noble, regal, and fierce - they are not Druids. I'm inclined to agree (cat lover that I am) and I agree with the spirit of your post...but I would like to point out that the idea of lions being "regal and noble" is ultimately just anthropomorphism (as appealing as it is).:) I also think a druid could possess all the above-mentioned qualities.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 04:00 PM	I'm inclined to agree (cat lover that I am) and I agree with the spirit of your post...but I would like to point out that the idea of lions being "regal and noble" is ultimately just anthropomorphism (as appealing as it is). Oh, certainly. :) If we were going with just... You know... Lions, hanging out, I wouldn't say this. But Nobanion is a God specifically inspired by these anthropomorphisms, as is his mythology, his clergy, etc. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 04:23 PM	It does, but I am not worried about selling WoC books. That is not my job. All I am saying is that the setting itself is too good to be overtly centered on Mystra. I think that was a waste. My opinion anyway. Well, again, I have to disagree that the setting was overtly centered on Mystra.:) But let me ask you something than... just out of curiosity. Is there something you like in the new 4e? Is there something I like in the new 4E? Sure! I went out and bought the two preview books. I love a lot of the 4E concepts, and I can't wait to see the new rules. I just don't like all the changes being done to the Realms--to me, it no longer feels like the same setting. My opinion of 4E as a ruleset is seperate from my opinion of the 4E Realms.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 04:25 PM	Oh, certainly. :) If we were going with just... You know... Lions, hanging out, I wouldn't say this. Lions hanging out, resting, sleeping, yawning...:) But Nobanion is a God specifically inspired by these anthropomorphisms, as is his mythology, his clergy, etc. :) You're right about that.:) Same goes for a lot of other gods that have to do with animals. That's a fair point.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:33 PM	My opinion of 4E as a ruleset is seperate from my opinion of the 4E Realms. -A lot of people, on either side of the divide, have trouble, at times, differentiating the two.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 04:36 PM	-A lot of people, on either side of the divide, have trouble, at times, differentiating the two. Silly people. :)
dethmetal 02-28-08, 04:39 PM	PS: I failed a physics test this morning, drew comics on it instead, and then accidentally bit the tip of my tongue almost off. I'm a bit antsy. And today I failed a Web Services exam for the five stars DCE .NET developer program that Microsoft has, not counting that today we have heavy raining in Buenos Aires and that work has been slow today, so I'm in the same field. I've got a test tonight, you guys aren't filling me with confidence that today is a good day to be taking them. Not that' i'm overly superstitious but bad things do tend to happen in threes.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 04:41 PM	Welcome to the club, buddy. ;)
dethmetal 02-28-08, 04:52 PM	well if this club costs me, my A and drops my GPA again then no offence but i'll just burn my membership card all the same.
Involverri 02-28-08, 04:54 PM	Some of this is in response to Dan and some is idle musing... I've only taken two semesters of mythology and my grades in those classes were barely passing. I wasn't a very motivated student at the time. Chances are I'm ignorant here and my comments may appear as such. We're approaching this from very different places... When I read FR (not novels) or other D&D materials, I focus on them within the context of the game. Only when it becomes completely nonsensical can I not do that. Druids in D&D share little in common with real world druids past a name; at least as I understand it. I can see a (D&D) druid as regal, noble, and fierce. (The latter two I've seen role-played convincingly numerous times). I can also picture a druid as royalty. Quick hypothetical example... An infant prince is spirited away by a servant when his parent's castle is sacked by a rival power. The child is handed off to a druid circle by the servant and is raised in their ways. They also reveal to the growing lad that he is a prince with the long term goal of supplanting the new ruling power. The circle is rid of an undesireable new threat to local natural stability and gain a useful ally in the new king, a man who will rule with a druidic mindset and perhaps inspire later generations to do so. This druid would hence be "royalty" of a sort. Ok, I realize that isn't exactly what you meant by royalty. I just find most people have an unfairly rigid view of D&D druids. Not all of them are outcast hermits with suspect hygiene. I've always liked Nobanion. Long before I played any druid one of my PCs was a paladin of Nobanion. The god was interesting back when I barely knew anything of FR and the words "roll d6" raised a bewildered stare out of me. I guess I viewed Nobanion in a simpler fashion. To me he was a being with a noble agenda and limited influence. These changes don't seem to stray too far from that. Nobandion is sort of like what I imagined Torm would be if he wasn't as dull as a slab of rock and less popular. That he is no longer a true god and serves Silvanus is immaterial in my opinion. Granted, 4e changes Nobanion in a big way by making him out to be like Tchazzar... And I do not disagree that his serving Silvanus is a stretch. Silvanus isn't a god I can see working closely with someone as faultlessly honorable and noble as Nobanion on a regular basis. Judging from Rinonalyrna's catch of his new "unaligned" status and his druid class levels, my guess is something drastic happened between Mystra's death and 1390 to change him. Or further to the point, a designer decided Nobanion's personality needed a retrofit and wrote the intervening background story to accommodate it. I don't actually have a solid point in writing all this. :p I simply think it's a good thing Nobanion survived at all. We might even see more than a few sentences written about him in the next decade. Don't get me wrong, I understand how it feels to have a favored character ripped into an unrecognizable state. It's this specific instance of 4e Faerun I'm okay with. Up to now I only had bad things to say. Lurking is more my speed though, and the time has come to return to it...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 05:58 PM	There have, in fact, been druids in the Realms who have also been royalty.:) I can think of three: Robyn Kendrick, Alicia Kendrick, and Christine Dragonsbane. Not that I'm trying to change Dan's feelings on this, though. I, too, know what it's like for my gut feelings to reject a new change. It's been happening constantly lately.;)
GothicDan 02-28-08, 06:10 PM	I tend towards thinking of Druids as TN, I admit. I do not accept non-TN Druids except for a few very rare cases. A largely LG clergy? A LG God being a Druid? That's just stretching it too far for me. It's snapped. But, thanks for trying to give a fair, balanced view of things, Involverri. It means a lot compared to what I've seen from some of the 4E zealots. :)
Zanan 02-28-08, 06:22 PM	I tend towards thinking of Druids as TN, I admit. I do not accept non-TN Druids except for a few very rare cases. As in: spider- and spiderweb-clad druids of Lolth? ;) I was going to comment on more points of that article, but I am still in a very good mood as my team pretty convincingly slaughtered Hearts at Tynecastle yesterday and that mood is nowhere near appropriate enough for my feelings towards the New Realms.
msatran 02-28-08, 06:26 PM	Well, again, this is the difference between cultures rearing it's ugly head. Example: Last night, during my Impiltur game, the PC's were attacked by Ibixians on the road. It was a tough fight, but they killed the Ibixians. (Goat men) The Ibixians worshipped Orcus. This confused the players. Later that day, they had another encounter with Ibixians. Again, they killed them, the IBixians worshipped Orcus. Still later that day, the PC's encountered two Ibixians and a priest of Orcus, and the players were like "What the HELL is going on?" Me: Make a DC 10 Knowledge Check. Player: Sure. Done. Me: Primitive cultures have a tendancy to worship deities that look like them. :) I'm worried that 4e ignores a lot of these logical things and that the Realms and all of its interesting cultures will be completely ruined.
yarethon 02-28-08, 06:28 PM	s there something I like in the new 4E? Sure! I went out and bought the two preview books. I love a lot of the 4E concepts, and I can't wait to see the new rules. I just don't like all the changes being done to the Realms--to me, it no longer feels like the same setting. My opinion of 4E as a ruleset is seperate from my opinion of the 4E Realms. Thank you I was just curious if you are just not enjoying the 4e FR or 4e in general -A lot of people, on either side of the divide, have trouble, at times, differentiating the two. I don't know if that was aimed at me, but I know the difference. That was actually the whole point of asking, cause she clearly is not "in love" with the new FR. I wanted to know if that was reserved to the setting or not.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:32 PM	I don't know if that was aimed at me, but I know the difference. -If it was aimed at you, I would have quoted something you said, not something Rino said.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 06:39 PM	Thank you I was just curious if you are just not enjoying the 4e FR or 4e in general You're welcome.;) I don't know if that was aimed at me, but I know the difference. That was actually the whole point of asking, cause she clearly is not "in love" with the new FR. I wanted to know if that was reserved just to the setting or not. That's right, I'm not in love with the new FR. I'm quite optimistic, however, regarding the new ruleset. This is the same for a lot of people here, actually.:)
yarethon 02-28-08, 06:39 PM	Lord Karsus-If it was aimed at you, I would have quoted something you said, not something Rino said. Just making things clear ;)
Zanan 02-28-08, 06:41 PM	I just don't like all the changes being done to the Realms--to me, it no longer feels like the same setting. My opinion of 4E as a ruleset is seperate from my opinion of the 4E Realms. Pretty much so. What is quite annoying though is the apparent fact that the Realms where Ragnageddon'ed for the new edition and that lands it in many a bad book. I for one cannot say that I am impressed by the 4E rules info I have seen so far, but honestly speaking, I wasn't that convinced when 3E descended upon us. Still, after playing 3E for the better part of 7 years now, I found it quite useful a system which offers a lot - to anyone with half a cup of brains. Maybe I am a generation and a half too old for 4E, which is IMHO clearly intended for the video gamers' generation, who likes it cool, fantastic, and unlimited.
Alediran 02-28-08, 06:53 PM	Not to sound contradicting but video games are VERY limited, only RPGs like D&D have true freedom of playing.
Zanan 02-28-08, 07:01 PM	Not to sound contradicting but video games are VERY limited, only RPGs like D&D have true freedom of playing. I was not speaking of video games, but the video gamers' generation. ;)
Kenzuki 02-28-08, 07:19 PM	There have, in fact, been druids in the Realms who have also been royalty.:) I can think of three: Robyn Kendrick, Alicia Kendrick, and Christine Dragonsbane. Not that I'm trying to change Dan's feelings on this, though. I, too, know what it's like for my gut feelings to reject a new change. It's been happening constantly lately.;) Christine Dragonsbane was a royal ***** to Artemis Entreri. Pardon my french, it's just the honest to gods truth. I wish he killed her, Gareth would have been thankful trust me. Kain needed to die too. Hell, ALL of Gareth's friends were royal A-Holes, especially Kain and that cleric of Ilmater. Not to mention the bard that wanted to rape the half orc chick. I think Entreri and Jarlaxle were the real "good guys" in that story. Now that that's out of the way. I wanted to see the Nobanion side thingy dangit! *pouts*
msatran 02-28-08, 08:18 PM	Uh, no offense. You're Lawful Good! You're a 25th level paladin. You detect evil. You know Artemis Entreri is EVIL. All of those characters are Lawful Good. Kane, Gareth, all of them. They have NO reason to trust him. At all.
Kenzuki 02-28-08, 08:29 PM	Uh, no offense. You're Lawful Good! You're a 25th level paladin. You detect evil. You know Artemis Entreri is EVIL. All of those characters are Lawful Good. Kane, Gareth, all of them. They have NO reason to trust him. At all. Did you read how they acted? I thought Gareth's wife was acting like a blood thirsty dog. Gareth was the only one who even acted remotely good there in that situation. That stupid ranger would have deserved to be killed if Artemis had actually done it. Seriously, if that is your idea of Lawful Good, than evil looks pretty nice to me. I saw Kain as Lawful Neutral, but certainly not Good. He was a major A-hole. As was the ranger, the bard, the cleric, the *****-queen, and everyone except for Gareth.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 09:00 PM	The lion-figure is HUGE in Indo-European Mythology and beyond. There's Chinese symbolism, Roman, there's the Lion Gates of Mycenae, and so on. Aslan's only the latest in this reiteration of Noble/Regal Lion figures, and it makes me sad that people are so reducing Nobanion to be a simulacrum of Aslan, when the most blatant analogy between them (the Jesus-esque reincarnation metaphor) isn't at all present in Nobanion's history. I'm sorry if it seems I'm overreacting, Brian, but this is a huge deal to me. Hell, I'm :censored: off that the Aslan metaphor is gone! In my Realms, 616-Toril you're very familiar with by now GothicDan, I actually bumped up Nobanion's role and increased the prominence of the god in Kara-Tur (where I've been using the Spell Plague to create a Celestial Bureaucracy dominated by somewhat overlooked gods but more or less standardizing the religions).
Kenzuki 02-28-08, 09:06 PM	So what's changed with Nobanion? I couldn't see the article piece on it.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 09:07 PM	He's no longer Aligned. I.e. No longer Lawful Good and now a servant of Silvanus.
Kenzuki 02-28-08, 09:16 PM	He's no longer Aligned. I.e. No longer Lawful Good and now a servant of Silvanus. Is that all? You're all a bunch of cry babies then. Nobanion was already doing the whole freaken protecting nature crap anyway. Wasn't he part of some animal beast cult or something? You knew this was going to happen. He's still worshipped as a demigod, the mechanics have just changed. You can still be a cleric of him, you just get your power from Silvanis. The faith in Mufasa/Aslan/Lion Dude is just the catalyst for this to work.
Landro 02-28-08, 09:44 PM	Is that all? You're all a bunch of cry babies then. Nobanion was already doing the whole freaken protecting nature crap anyway. Wasn't he part of some animal beast cult or something? You knew this was going to happen. He's still worshipped as a demigod, the mechanics have just changed. You can still be a cleric of him, you just get your power from Silvanis. The faith in Mufasa/Aslan/Lion Dude is just the catalyst for this to work.To be fair to those voicing their complaints – he is no longer a god in the heavens. He’s something called an Exarch instead, basically a demigod in mortal form. He actually lives on Toril now. That's a significant difference if you happen to have a character devoted to him. For what it’s worth I really like the change, although I’m undecided on the alignment issue as yet. While he was LG in 3.x, he was IMHO because of his protective and guardianship roles (and possibly because of his Nobility portfolio – though I prefer to hope the designers didn’t decide that nobility = a Lawful alignment). I see him as being a protector of natures children, and in a D&D world where alignment is downplayed I can see these roles performed by someone with no stake in the fight of good vs evil.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 09:59 PM	Is that all? You're all a bunch of cry babies then. Yeah, so are you. Neener neener. Newsflash: NOT EVERYONE FEELS THE SAME THINGS ARE IMPORTANT AS YOU DO.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 10:18 PM	Is that all? You're all a bunch of cry babies then. Nobanion was already doing the whole freaken protecting nature crap anyway. Wasn't he part of some animal beast cult or something? You knew this was going to happen. He's still worshipped as a demigod, the mechanics have just changed. You can still be a cleric of him, you just get your power from Silvanis. The faith in Mufasa/Aslan/Lion Dude is just the catalyst for this to work. It'd be a more legitimate point if, effectively, you're devoting the same amount of complaining to people complaining about something you term to be insignificant. But yes, Nobanion as a Neutral nature deity vs. Lawful Good Paladin god hurts.
Landro 02-28-08, 10:33 PM	But yes, Nobanion as a Neutral nature deity vs. Lawful Good Paladin god hurts.I don't see why an unaligned nature god could not have paladins - especially when there is no longer a LG restriction on their alignement. Even when there is such a restriction, it wouldn't be the first time unusual combinations of worshippers and a gods alignment has happened in the Realms. It seems no worse to me than having a number of gods who could sponser both Paladins and Blackguards in their clergy.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 10:34 PM	Nobanion's clergy and warriors wouldn't be the same Paladins as they were in 2E/3E. So, if he has non-LG Paladins, then that SEVERELY changes his entire CHURCH. I'm not talking about mechanical issues here, but rather cultural and religious.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 10:43 PM	I don't see why an unaligned nature god could not have paladins - especially when there is no longer a LG restriction on their alignement. Even when there is such a restriction, it wouldn't be the first time unusual combinations of worshippers and a gods alignment has happened in the Realms. It seems no worse to me than having a number of gods who could sponser both Paladins and Blackguards in their clergy. Tell me, will these Paladins champion Law and Goodness? Will they protect the weak, defend the innocent, oppose evil at all costs, and fight against the enroachment of darkness even when it serves the cause of nature? If not, then it's a huge difference. Or are we replacing Torm with Silvanus now. (Is suddenly reminded of the Dead Parrot sketch)
Landro 02-28-08, 11:04 PM	Tell me, will these Paladins champion Law and Goodness? Will they protect the weak, defend the innocent, oppose evil at all costs, and fight against the enroachment of darkness even when it serves the cause of nature? Could Mielikkis? Her entry in F&P states that her clerics and druids fight against evil and ignorance to protect the forests. Her cleric alignments include LG, so there's no potential problems with palidans alignment either. I admit it's a step from a TN god in 3E to have paladins, but the designers have stated that the new alignment system will be different to the one we've seen already. For all we know Mielikki may be "unaligned" as well simply because she isn't an extreme of "goodness" without actually changing any of her character traits. I'll wait until I have facts before making my decision.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 11:08 PM	I don't need mechanics to tell me that Nobanion theoretically always having been TN would have had a different affect on his clergy. That's just logic.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 11:39 PM	-Torm + Bahamut + Nobanion = Best Triad Ever
Mr. Wilson 02-29-08, 12:26 AM	Motes are not for me thanks. I cringe every time I'm in Nagrand, I'll pass on them in the Realms. Brian, thanks for attempting to make lemonade. August is a long way away, but my neutrality is slipping further with every preview article.
ywhtptgtfo 02-29-08, 12:37 AM	I plan to buy the 4e FRCG... I'm just going to rip out the pages concerning the new Empire of Netheril and the Shades and mail them back to Rich Baker... With a few comments scribbled on them... ;) If you really want to spite WotC, just don't buy the 4.ed. You can always fulfill your curiosity by going to Chapters and read the source books there.
Zsych 02-29-08, 01:21 AM	Hmm... 4E doesn't actually sound that bad, though I wish they were just changing the magic and game system as opposed to the world at large. And at least Elminster is still alive and sane.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 01:27 AM	And at least Elminster is still alive and sane. Elminster being sane would be a major change.
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 01:32 AM	And he's got a whole new crop of young wenches to molest. :P Thats the 'real' reason for the century timejump, ya' know - Elminster already had sex with half the women on the planet, and he was related to the other half. :D
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 02:36 AM	Nobanion - http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs29/300W/i/2008/057/a/8/DRUID_by_Avinna.png
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 02:48 AM	What the Hell, they stole Nobanion off the Wailing Years!
Teh_username 02-29-08, 03:03 AM	What the Hell, they stole Nobanion off the Wailing Years! This is no joke - I just went to check the latest revision of the article before making a post, and "Nobanion" has been removed entirely. No, seriously - I did a "find text" for it, and came up with no matches. :confused: That's what, twice now that this article in particular has been "revised", unannounced, in a way that just happens to remove something the fans dislike entirely? It's not exactly instilling anyone with confidence in the "4e 'Realms" to respond to any and all criticism with "MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE". 'specially when the original article is quoted on page one of this thread. :D
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 03:12 AM	Dammit, I didn't even get my Save Nobanion Signs made out! :)
Valgard 02-29-08, 03:37 AM	Not to me, or how I interpreted things. This may be because I somewhat upped his importance a little, but this points out WotC's flawed plan: destroying any piece of the Realms rather than dealing with what's there more runs the high chance that someone, somewhere, will be disappointed. My Nobanion in my Realms would never be subservient to Silvanus. It makes no sense to me. Lions are royalty, noble, regal, and fierce - they are not Druids. Heracles's slaying of the lion and taking his regalia was a huge sign of this, as Heracles was seen first and foremost as symbolic of mankind dominating the world around him and paving the way for civilization. The lion became part of who Heracles, the harbinger of civilization, was. The Lion Gates of Mycenae guarded what was one of the largest walled cities/settlements of the ancient Archaic world. I cannot see Lions as being linked to Druids in any way. I'm sorry, guys. This is what happens when I've been studying history and mythology obsessively, especially lately. You guys may not think that mechanics affect a game's lore, but this is clearly not true. We've seen on these very boards where people have said, "I don't want to worship X or Y, he's only a demigod." (I'm thinking of Velsharoon, specifically.) Culture doesn't evolve by somehow blocking part of its knowledge off from the rest; things mingle and mix into each other. You cannot deny it. This depreciates who I feel Nobanion is. Yes, now someone can call me a zealot, if they want. And you know what? I see no reason to promote Nobanion to a Lesser God, either, especially since Torm's going to be a Greater, and he already has weak leonine imagery. So the only possibility is to keep him a barely divine Demigod. Which makes my image of the world basically incompatible with 4E's ruleset, actually. I'm surprised I didn't realize that earlier.I liked the original reply by GothicDan about his vision of Nobanion so much. I totally agree with you and I share many aspects that Nobanion should have. In fact, I posted previously that I see Nobanion more as a nature arm of the Triad (specially Torm) rather than a honorable warrior arm of Silvanus. In another fact, in my works for my own campaign setting much influenced by Greenwood's world, I thought about a deity who is some kind of blend between Nobanion, Horus-Re, and Siamorphe... a god of kings and glory, with the aspect of the lion as a symbol of nobility and royalty and with the power of the light of glory. Nobanion makes a perfect symbolism for this kind role in a game, and this position of druid-related, just because it's an animal, makes him lose much of his flavor.
Ryltar Swordsong 02-29-08, 04:40 AM	Yet another article, and yet more reasons I will never buy 4e Forgettable Realms. WotC really does not want my consumer dollars.
Alediran 02-29-08, 06:33 AM	I was not speaking of video games, but the video gamers' generation. ;) As part of the first wave of that generation I'll say that not much.
msatran 02-29-08, 06:53 AM	That's because a Paladin is required to be an exemplar. Realistically, Artemis Entreri is one of the most evil men in the realms. Executing him, by every reasonable standard of Lawful Good, is a public service, and those people COULD take him. Very easily. Plus, Lore as written, being an Assassin in Damara is ILLEGAL! Read the lore or the old Bloodstone modules. The Society of Assassins was one of the major enemies allied with Zhengyi the Witch King. You can't BE an assassin in Damara. Quite frankly, I'm surprised Gareth Dragonsbane didn't kill him. Where is it written that Lawful Good people have to be nice to evil? That's ridiculous. Quite frankly, if that were my party of adventurers, you know, they would probably A) Kill him for being stupid enough to show his face in a lawful good environment. B) Destroy all his magic items that were evilly aligned and sell the rest to benefit the poor. C) Cast Speak with Dead on him. Determine who the real villains are, and then bury him in a paupers grave, unable to be ressurrected. D) Go smite the bad guys in Road of the Patriarch and say "You guys made an evil man. I hope you're proud of yourselves. Remember that when you swing from the gallows, looking at his pauper's grave." THAT'S Lawful Good. I don't know what version of lawful good you've been playing for the past twenty years, but being Lawful Good means the greatest good for the greatest number while obeying the laws of the land, not being a weenie.
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 07:41 AM	That's not what I consider good. Artemis and Jarlaxle had done nothing at all to anyone in Damara at all. They even freaken saved the damn half-orc town for the love of god! This whole "omg he's an assassin he's killed people for money he deserves to die!!!!" Well Gareth is committing mass genocide on the orcs and goblins who call Vasaa home. Oh but they are just brutal savages so it's OK to kill them all off and claim the land for your own. This is the whole "might makes right" arguement that is stupid. Whatever Artemis has done in his past Gareth killing him because "omg he's EVOL" is just freaken retarded and in my opinion not a good action. Artemis isn't evil pure evil. He only kills people who are retarded enough to get in his way. Last time I checked he doesn't even take jobs anymore, he was off adventuring with Jarlaxle. Oh but the Gareth's crew are the good guys so they win. Let's see here. Kain was a stuck up ******* that was willing to do anything to further the goals of the King. Christine was a blood thirsty ***** who wanted to slay Artemis because he wouldn't respect her husband. The fat cleric of Ilmater was obnoxious. The Bard tried to get that half-orc wizard drunk and then use his bardic powers to get her into bed. Wow sounds like date rape to me boys! The ranger was trying to kill Artemis for a crime he didn't even commit. Yup, Gareth is the only one of that crew that even seemed really good to me. He didn't want to kill Artemis because it wouldn't have been just in that situation. So no MS, I disagree with you on who the real "evil" was there. I don't give a damn what his alignment is. If good adopts the ways of evil it becomes evil. So there. About Nobanion. I've read over Powers & Pantheons and Faiths&P and I haven't found all that much that seems to be effected. Nobanion lives in the House of Nature. He protects animals and the wild lands. He sometimes lives ON Toril in that forest place, and goes back and forth in between his pridelands in the forest and the House of Nature. He started out as a beastcult worshipped only by animals. He's got a small human following. He's worshipped BY druids. The only differences I'm seeing here is his alignment is changed "Who cares, Lawful Good doesn't exist anymore" and his demigodhood just means something else. I understand Dan is p'oed that this screws with his custom lore. I can understand that. But it really doesn't contridict that much in the lore. Be happy he's still alive folks. He could have been killed off or absorbed into Torm.
msatran 02-29-08, 07:52 AM	Uh, wow, that's a real **** retentive view of lawful good. It is NOT what the PHB says. Go back and read it again. The laws of Damara say "You can't be an assassin." He's an assassin. The penalty for being an assassin is DEATH. What part of this do you not understand? Gareth was being as nice as he possibly could be, and all those people standing around him fought the Society of Assassins with him. Reason to be civil=Zero. Also, read what it says about being a Paladin. NO DEALS WITH EVIL! You CAN'T DO IT, and immediately become not a paladin if you do. You have to atone, and at least the way that Salvatore handles it, that's quest time. Gareth is the King of his entire flipping country. He can't just hie off willy nilly to go on a quest for his deity. Plus, Who wrote Bloodstone Lands? If you don't know, I suggest you go back and THEN rethink your statement.
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 08:05 AM	Uh, wow, that's a real **** retentive view of lawful good. It is NOT what the PHB says. Go back and read it again. The laws of Damara say "You can't be an assassin." He's an assassin. The penalty for being an assassin is DEATH. What part of this do you not understand? Gareth was being as nice as he possibly could be, and all those people standing around him fought the Society of Assassins with him. Reason to be civil=Zero. Also, read what it says about being a Paladin. NO DEALS WITH EVIL! You CAN'T DO IT, and immediately become not a paladin if you do. You have to atone, and at least the way that Salvatore handles it, that's quest time. Gareth is the King of his entire flipping country. He can't just hie off willy nilly to go on a quest for his deity. Plus, Who wrote Bloodstone Lands? If you don't know, I suggest you go back and THEN rethink your statement. Artemis wasn't an assassin when he was in Damara. He wasn't contracted to go kill someone. He was just another adventurer. He wasn't part of the Citadel of Assassins, he wasn't part of the Witch King's crew. He's just out there trying to live. Also what happens when a paladin meets a Slayer of Domiel? He's an assassin so the paladin has to kill him then right? Let's hope a Slayer of Domiel never goes to Damara then!
Zanan 02-29-08, 08:05 AM	Yet another article, and yet more reasons I will never buy 4e Forgettable Realms. WotC really does not want my consumer dollars. I still wait to wake up from this nightmare. Never expected the Revenancer would place a Haunted Reverie on myself ...
msatran 02-29-08, 08:10 AM	Artemis wasn't an assassin when he was in Damara. He wasn't contracted to go kill someone. He was just another adventurer. He wasn't part of the Citadel of Assassins, he wasn't part of the Witch King's crew. He's just out there trying to live. Also what happens when a paladin meets a Slayer of Domiel? He's an assassin so the paladin has to kill him then right? Let's hope a Slayer of Domiel never goes to Damara then! You're correct. The law does not differentiate. Of course, I don't use Slayer of Domiel so I really don't have that problem. Your problem, Ken, is that Artemis Entreri is a legendary character. He's a legendary assassin. It's not as if Gareth and his band haven't heard of him, the same way that Artemis has heard of them. They KNOW he's an assassin who's murdered hundreds of people. The thing you fail to understand about the Forgotten Realms, that has always been the case, is despite it's vastness.... There are about a thousand legendary people in the Forgotten Realms, not including your PC's, and they all know each other, or at least, about each other.
Scathlock 02-29-08, 08:34 AM	I just read the article and it actually doesn't make my skin crawl the way the other two did. It only makes me sad. If this is what comes out of an honest effort by an author with considerable skill to actually minimize damage and make the whole mess believable and realmsian, I'm even more pessimistic than before that it could somehow work. No, this valiant effort makes the whole disaster even more macabre and farcical. Dead parrot sketch indeed. I'm afraid, really afraid of the moment I see Ed's contribution to this corpse. I'm not the kind of guy who cries easily or often, but seeing Ed doing something like this article might do the job. Just thinking of it makes me shudder.
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 09:16 AM	You're correct. The law does not differentiate. Of course, I don't use Slayer of Domiel so I really don't have that problem. Your problem, Ken, is that Artemis Entreri is a legendary character. He's a legendary assassin. It's not as if Gareth and his band haven't heard of him, the same way that Artemis has heard of them. They KNOW he's an assassin who's murdered hundreds of people. The thing you fail to understand about the Forgotten Realms, that has always been the case, is despite it's vastness.... There are about a thousand legendary people in the Forgotten Realms, not including your PC's, and they all know each other, or at least, about each other. That's funny. They didn't seem to know jack **** about who Artemis Entreri really was. I think you're the one who failed to understand something. They were going to kill him for that claim Jarlaxle made about Vasaa being their kingdom. Artemis's point was that the wasteland wasn't Gareth's by birth, he was trying to claim it by deed. Since Artemis slew the Dracolich that made the tower his by that reasoning. If Gareth had killed Artemis for that crime he would have been just as bad because he's just the same. It wasn't about Artemis being evil or an assassin and you know it. It's the reasoning behind what they were doing and none of them acted like the good heroes you make them out to be. Oh and under the new alignment rules they'de all be Unaligned anyway, so THERE!:P
Alediran 02-29-08, 10:04 AM	The new alignment rules suck big time.
yarethon 02-29-08, 10:14 AM	The new alignment rules suck big time. Why?
Alediran 02-29-08, 10:55 AM	Why? First because it goes against one of the most core concepts of D&D, second because it puts 99% of the characters as "unaligned", which tells us little about how the character is, you have to read about each one of them instead of having a loose guideline system (the opposite purpose of this new edition: simplify things) to base you in something. For example we'll create Garriot Hammerhead, if I tell you he's unaligned you don't even now anything about him except for his name. If I tell you he's also Lawfull Good you have another piece of the character, one that gives you lots of details about what Garriot is.
yarethon 02-29-08, 11:15 AM	it goes against one of the most core concepts of D&D Not to advocate in favor or against it, but just because it was so in the past doesnt mean it was a good thing. second because it puts 99% of the characters as "unaligned" I kind of like that. I mean, most people that I know (in real life) and characters that I like would not perfectly fit in any of the alingments. Just a few would. I think the new system opens room to more complexity... For example we'll create Garriot Hammerhead, if I tell you he's unaligned you don't even now anything about him except for his name. If I tell you he's also Lawfull Good you have another piece of the character, one that gives you lots of details about what Garriot is. At first, I was going to agree with you on this one, but then I thought.... ...you can always either read the character story or make it up on the spot. Can't you? I mean no disrespect. I was just curious as usual.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 11:19 AM	Yes, Gareth is a strange man who has a human assassin spared but wipes out Goblins for existing.
Alediran 02-29-08, 11:20 AM	That's good from the player's point of view, but for DMs, especially those who love to improvise like me it's a bad change, when I'm designing the adventure I just quick read the known characters in the area (levels to know what they can do and alignment, to have a base to improvise from there), therefore I don't spend too much time reading the character's history unless something particular about it calls my atention. Without alignment now I'm forced to read everything of the character because I don't like making a LG character act like a CN. What's more, characters are never strictly molded into their alignments and that's why just a long description is not enough to tell me if the character is good or evil, lawfull or chaotic. Not even counting that WotC eliminated alignment-based spells like Magic Circle Against Alignment (a KEY spell for calling outsiders that must stay locked in a place)
msatran 02-29-08, 11:22 AM	That's funny. They didn't seem to know jack **** about who Artemis Entreri really was. I think you're the one who failed to understand something. They were going to kill him for that claim Jarlaxle made about Vasaa being their kingdom. Artemis's point was that the wasteland wasn't Gareth's by birth, he was trying to claim it by deed. Since Artemis slew the Dracolich that made the tower his by that reasoning. If Gareth had killed Artemis for that crime he would have been just as bad because he's just the same. It wasn't about Artemis being evil or an assassin and you know it. It's the reasoning behind what they were doing and none of them acted like the good heroes you make them out to be. Oh and under the new alignment rules they'de all be Unaligned anyway, so THERE!:P Incorrect. As King of Damara, Gareth Dragonsbane declared that NO ONE was to own the Witch King's fortress, claim it as property or what have you. Artemis could have been the most holy paladin in the world, and Gareth still would have told him no. I understand that things like the law and politics mean nothing to you, and that you probably will never understand how they work, but that's why they made 4th edition D+D, so that new players wouldn't have to worry about being arrested when they screwed up.
yarethon 02-29-08, 11:24 AM	That's good from the player's point of view, but for DMs, especially those who love to improvise like me it's a bad change, when I'm designing the adventure I just quick read the known characters in the area (levels to know what they can do and alignment, to have a base to improvise from there), therefore I don't spend too much time reading the character's history unless something particular about it calls my atention. Without alignment now I'm forced to read everything of the character because I don't like making a LG character act like a CN. What's more, characters are never strictly molded into their alignments and that's why just a long description is not enough to tell me if the character is good or evil, lawfull or chaotic. Not even counting that WotC eliminated alignment-based spells like Magic Circle Against Alignment (a KEY spell for calling outsiders that must stay locked in a place) That is what I don't understand. I like to improvise too. I think the new system opens (more) room for improvisation. As I said before you can either read the story or make it up. About the spells ... you can just change the concept.. instead of a magic circle that binds evil... you could create a spell that bind (especifically) fiends... that bind elementals.... that bind the wind if you like. I think it is even more flavorful like that... Well anyway, I don't want to push my opinion on you.
Alediran 02-29-08, 11:28 AM	I think the new system opens (more) room for improvisation. What I implied is that they removed an important piece of information about characters. Without LN in Khelben's stats a group would think him evil, while other group would think him good when he is neither of them. They just opened a can of worms that'll fill the boards with discussions about in which category of the old alignment system X character will fit. As I said before you can either read the story or make it up. I use the characters as they are, therefore completely making it up is not an option for me. Knowing that Khelben was LN was as usefull as knowing that he sometimes made deals with evil people and sometimes kicked their butts. About the spells ... you can just change the concept.. instead of a magic circle that binds evil... you could create a spell that bind (especifically) fiends... that bind elementals.... that bind the wind if you like. I think it is even more flavorful like that... We'll see about that, but I don't like spells that are TOO specific since they tend to be useless 99% of the time. Magic Circle Against Evil is a perfectly balanced spell that binds Evil Outsiders or protects a group from them, usefull in many situations without being the be-all-end-all spell against a group of outsiders.
yarethon 02-29-08, 11:31 AM	What I implied is that they removed an important piece of information about characters. Without LN in Khelben's stats a group would think him evil, while other group would think him good when he is neither of them. .. and why is that bad? The DM is the one that has to know what the character is in advance. Players should draw their conclusions through roleplay and interaction, shouldn't they? I use the characters as they are, therefore completely making it up is not an option for me. Knowing that Khelben was LN was as usefull as knowing that he sometimes made deals with evil people and sometimes kicked their butts. If you didnt know his alignment, but knew his story... would it matter? We'll see about that, but I don't like spells that are TOO specific since they tend to be useless 99% of the time. Magic Circle Against Evil is a perfectly balanced spell that binds Evil Outsiders or protects a group from them, usefull in many situations without being the be-all-end-all spell against a group of outsiders. Balanced in 3.x. I think that very specific rituals ( instead of combat spells) would not be a problem... but as you said let us see that.
Alediran 02-29-08, 11:34 AM	.. and why is that bad? The DM is the one that has to know what the character is in advance. Players should draw their conclusions through roleplay and interaction, shouldn't they? Not talking about players but about board members. When 4th edition arives a new tradition of: In which of the 9 old alignments X character will fit?Get ready to see that thread title often in the boards. As for me one of the first things I'll do for the 4th edition rules is rebuild the 9 alignments, set them on the characters and recreate the alignment-spells and effects (like Detect Evil for Paladins, which will only be LG) and put everything in a nice PDF that people will be able to download in The Realms Vault.
yarethon 02-29-08, 11:44 AM	Not talking about players but about board members. When 4th edition arives a new tradition of: In which of the 9 old alignments X character will fit?Get ready to see that thread title often in the boards Yeah... I can see that. I agree, but at the same time I don't care. I probably will just ignore those threads that will bother me. As for me one of the first things I'll do for the 4th edition rules is rebuild the 9 alignments, set them on the characters and recreate the alignment-spells and effects (like Detect Evil for Paladins, which will only be LG) and put everything in a nice PDF that people will be able to download in The Realms Vault. Wow... that seems like an awful amount of work. Good luck with that (no irony).
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 11:45 AM	For me, the change in alignment means just a re-ordering. Elves, Dwarves, and Humanoids are now all Neutral by nature like Humans.
Alediran 02-29-08, 11:49 AM	For me, the change in alignment means just a re-ordering. Elves, Dwarves, and Humanoids are now all Neutral by nature like Humans. That's another thing that bothers me, more work to make Demihumans = to humans in funny suits. WotC is killing every single aspect that makes Humans and Demihumans different.
msatran 02-29-08, 11:59 AM	Yeah, the distinct lack of cultural differences does seem to be something of a problem.
Alediran 02-29-08, 12:01 PM	Yeah, the distinct lack of cultural differences does seem to be something of a problem. Pretty much the only thing that separates Elves (Eladrins are CG Outsiders who live in Arborea) from Humans in 4th edition.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 12:33 PM	-Assassin = Bad -Paladin = Good -Is it just me?
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 12:41 PM	That's another thing that bothers me, more work to make Demihumans = to humans in funny suits. WotC is killing every single aspect that makes Humans and Demihumans different. It depends if you consider "natural inclination to good" part of that.
Alediran 02-29-08, 01:08 PM	It depends if you consider "natural inclination to good" part of that. I do. And it's natural that Elves are usually CG when the god that created them is CG, just as with Dwarves who are mostly LG because Moradin is LG.
Mula 02-29-08, 01:27 PM	As for me one of the first things I'll do for the 4th edition rules is rebuild the 9 alignments, set them on the characters and recreate the alignment-spells and effects (like Detect Evil for Paladins, which will only be LG) and put everything in a nice PDF that people will be able to download in The Realms Vault.Wait wait wait... after all the ranting, raving, and caps locking, you're actually going to - play - 4e and do stuff for the 4e Realms? :confused:
Alediran 02-29-08, 01:32 PM	Wait wait wait... after all the ranting, raving, and caps locking, you're actually going to - play - 4e and do stuff for the 4e Realms? :confused: I was never against 4th edition RULESET (I'm neutral on it and will only decide after reading them, Rules are rules and can be changed with ease). And the 4e FR will be The Realms Vault version, when none of that Spellcrap happened, it will continue to be Classic Realms, Shar'll go back being the Goth Chick she always was (No Shadow Roll of Years, that's another lame retcon to justify this whole Spellcrap) and Cyric will be taken down many pegs after failing to murder Mystra, and Mystra will get the Shadow Weave too and will merge both Weaves, thus fortifying magic and allowing the new magic systems of 4th edition to work. In The Realms Vault we'll keep options to play the Classic Realms in 3rd and 4th edition rules.
Mula 02-29-08, 01:52 PM	Mystra will get the Shadow Weave too and will merge both Weaves, thus fortifying magic and allowing the new magic systems of 4th edition to work.Is this one of those "Wow, WotC is so unimaginative, I could do a lot better!" explanations we've been reading about since the Spellplague was revealed? Just so you know, that one really isn't much better. :)
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 02:03 PM	No... MINE is the best... for me. :P Just as whatever YOU use Mula works for you, and whatever Alediran chooses to do will work for him. Like Alediran, the first thing I plan to do is write back in whatever they took out that I liked about 3e, but I will still use 4e. I've never played any edition without houserules, and I've rarely met a group who didn't use them to some extent. Buy 4e Rules, and then make it your own, I say. Just don't let all of the 4e Realms weirdness get in the way of you enjoying the Realms as you personally envision them. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 02:37 PM	Christine Dragonsbane was a royal ***** to Artemis Entreri. Maybe so (and I didn't care for how she came off in that book, myself) but I only brought her up because I wanted to give examples of druids who were also rulers (ie. druid royalty has been done before and is not inconceivable). In Road of the Patriarch, I don't think it was even mentioned that Christine was a druid. See The Rite for a better portrayal (IMO).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 02:40 PM	Is that all? You're all a bunch of cry babies then. Nobanion was already doing the whole freaken protecting nature crap anyway. Wasn't he part of some animal beast cult or something? You knew this was going to happen. He's still worshipped as a demigod, the mechanics have just changed. You can still be a cleric of him, you just get your power from Silvanis. The faith in Mufasa/Aslan/Lion Dude is just the catalyst for this to work. He promoted acts of goodness as well as nature. Anyway, that sidebar no longer applies--it was taken off because it's outdated (as per Brian James).
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 02:46 PM	What was outdated about it?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 03:01 PM	No... MINE is the best... for me. :P Just as whatever YOU use Mula works for you, and whatever Alediran chooses to do will work for him. Like Alediran, the first thing I plan to do is write back in whatever they took out that I liked about 3e, but I will still use 4e. I've never played any edition without houserules, and I've rarely met a group who didn't use them to some extent. Buy 4e Rules, and then make it your own, I say. Just don't let all of the 4e Realms weirdness get in the way of you enjoying the Realms as you personally envision them. ;) I agree, on all points.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 03:03 PM	What was outdated about it? We don't know. All we were told is that the 4E design team is going in a different direction with Nobanion than that sidebar indicates, and therefore it was outdated.:)
GothicDan 02-29-08, 03:10 PM	I hope the new path's better than the old.
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 03:15 PM	As I have been SO happy to point out NUMEROUS times inthe past, when it comes to 4e and the design team, one hand is completely unaware of what the other is doing! I have a VERY bad feeling that the FRCG is going to be an unreadable, inconsistent mess. :nonono:
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 03:25 PM	Nobanion Good Aligned Exarch of Fluffy Kitties! http://i-love-cartoons.com/snags/clipart/Hello-Kitty/Hello-Kitty-painting.jpg
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 03:38 PM	I wonder if Sharess/Baast is still trying to get into his 'fur' in 4e... Come to think of it, I hope she's not on the chopping block for 4e! :eek:
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 04:15 PM	Come to think of it, I hope she's not on the chopping block for 4e! :eek: -What do you think? :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 06:03 PM	They better not harm the goddess of fluffy kitties!:mad:
Fabius Maximus 02-29-08, 06:12 PM	Cormyr is struck hard, but not so violently as many other nations. Roughly one third of all Wizards of War are slain, driven mad, or simply have gone missing in the year following Mystra's death. There you go. A little bit more precision and you can start to argue. There we go! One third! To say that the rest of the nation isn't similarly affected is categorically ridiculous. That's like saying that the land selectively targeted only the army with the Spellplague. However, we also know that that's impossible. And you think that's why it's a "magical wasteland"? Curious, givn how Cormyr actually strives in the years after the Spellplague. Yeah, roughly a third of the mages become insane, die or get lost somehow. That means there are still 2/3 of the mages sane and whole. Should be enough, don't you think? Well, let's start with the obvious: Mystra is gone. That's a magical wasteland as far as I'm concerned. I've said this before, I'll say it again. They can lick my orb, suck my staff, and blow my wand. Taking this out of the game makes it not Dungeons and Dragons ever again. Why? Because magic now works different? That's little bit thin, isn't it? Let's add to this: Floating Forests, and other manifestations that seem like they came out of a crackhouse run by sixties love children than a Dungeons and Dragons game. The world is a magical wasteland, because normal people can't survive in it. It's amazing that they do. I really wonder how you come up with statements like this one when you still haven't seen much of the new setting. The Changing Lands: I did read the article, and I know what it said. Obviously, sarcasm is completely beyond you. I can't quite distinguish sarcasm and ernesty in your posts because they're are so full of hysteria. And given your first perceptional mistakes, it wasn't that far a stretch that you meant that question serious. Cormyr: The Eldreth Veluuthra hold the Hullack Forest? After a hundred years of that, there wouldn't be a human between the forest and the High Road. Every single town that wasn't a major city would be living in poverty, or Cormyr would have to devote it's entire army to militarily patrolling towns to make sure their HUMAN leaders don't get assassinated. It's amazing how little you think about the dynamic impact of a terrorist organization like the Eldreth Veluuthra when you can look at Iraq to see how one can actually work. I said that was the only thing that bugged me, didn't I? The Prismatic Mountains: What does Final Fantasy have to do with this? It's the sort of thing you'd see in a video game designed for twelve year olds. Apparently NATURE is the enemy now. I know people are swapping their homes for Mcmansions without yards in real life, but that's no reason to perpetuate the syndrome. This LANDSCAPE DOES NOT FUNCTION EXCEPT IN THE CRACKED MINDS OF THE DERANGED! I don't know. I don't play FF, so I was looking forward to a real explanation. Yours left me somewhat underwhelmed. Bullywugs Harassing the Zhents: The article even says it causes the Zhents setbacks. (Though how the Zhents function with no wizards either would have been more worthy of a couple paragraphs.) Setbacks implies that they have to move more slowly. Guerilla actions tend to do that to big organizations. It's a freaking swamp the zhent troops have to deal with. That doesn't bode well for a prolonged campaign against the bullywugs. You know, everyone has oratorical techniques they use. Apparently, hyperbole is not allowed anymore, no matter how effective the analogy. Yes, it was gross and nasty, but it did get the point across.Constant hyperbole tends to make people think you're Rumpelstiltskin. After that, they don't take you serious anymore. Unless, of course, they share your opinion. The Cult of Blue Fire: Yes, there are dozens of stupid people willing to believe stuff, but the point is that you have just as many people who remember how much it sucked and are old enough to tell people so! What makes you think fanaticized or desperate people listen to the voice of reason? Someone should have killed these people within months of their inception. Adventurers don't stop adventuring just because some blue lights appeared in the sky. This organization is neither monolithic nor unstoppable, and a well placed bowl of syrup of Ipecak can slaughter an entire group of cultists.How do you know all that? If this region they live in is so disturbing and dangerous, people not interested in it stay clear of it. Especially if they have their own issues (like the receding waters of the inner sea.)
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 06:19 PM	Incorrect. As King of Damara, Gareth Dragonsbane declared that NO ONE was to own the Witch King's fortress, claim it as property or what have you. Artemis could have been the most holy paladin in the world, and Gareth still would have told him no. I understand that things like the law and politics mean nothing to you, and that you probably will never understand how they work, but that's why they made 4th edition D+D, so that new players wouldn't have to worry about being arrested when they screwed up. He may be King of Damara, but the witch king's fortress was in Vaasa. What gives him dominion over the wildlands of Vaasa? I don't have respect for stupid laws. Insulting me by suggesting that I'm somehow so stupid that they had to simplify the rules to fit my intelligence is not a good arguement. And politics will ALWAYS be stupid.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 07:38 PM	To REIGN IN this discussion a bit. Artemis is correct, Gareth is King of Vaasa solely because he's conquering it and has more men. He has no mandate. Gareth has trouble with refuting that because it doesn't fit with his self-image that he's just perfect.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 08:04 PM	Cormyr: The Forest Kingdom is completely screwed. Alusair disappears. How lovely. It doesn't matter, she won't be around in a hundred years for people to care. I simply cannot express my disgust for the Spellplague and everything related to it enough. Well, as long as she's alive, I don't care. A THIRD OF THE WIZARDS IN CORMYR WENT INSANE? So what's left of the country? So, like 30-50 wizards are killed by the Purple Dragons? So what? Like maybe 200 guys probably died before they're put down with half a dozen arrows. 1d4 hit points are a :censored: Someone wasn't paying attention to just how many wizards there are. Not that many. This is Cormyr, not Halruaa. The Eldreth Veluuthra claim the Hullack Forest? With what skills? Tordynnar Rhaenvern can't cast spells either! He's screwed! And as awesome as Tordynnar is, he can't possibly stand up to a legion of Cormyr's best troops. Actually, that assumes they're actually hunting humans. Frankly, I imagine it's more a case of merely establishing a permanent base.
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 08:34 PM	Ever think those insane wizards started to just blast themselves? Some probably killed themselves, others might have become insanely paranoid and sought other wizards and killed them.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 10:08 PM	They better not harm the goddess of fluffy kitties!:mad: -I'll protect them. :) He may be King of Damara, but the witch king's fortress was in Vaasa. What gives him dominion over the wildlands of Vaasa? -Might. I don't have respect for stupid laws. -Laws are laws and are meant to be obeyed. And politics will ALWAYS be stupid. -What was that about being stupid?
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 10:12 PM	Like I said, Artemis wasn't an assassin in Damara. So the law doesn't apply to him and they were not trying him for being an assassin previously. They didn't know who he was. Oh unless you count the 1 level in the prc in which case *rolls his eyes* Gareth should thank Artemis. Now he can take Vaasa and be looked upon as a hero instead of a conquerer pushing himself on everyone there. Gotta love Jarlaxle!
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 10:17 PM	Like I said, Artemis wasn't an assassin in Damara. So the law doesn't apply to him and they were not trying him for being an assassin previously. They didn't know who he was. Oh unless you count the 1 level in the prc in which case *rolls his eyes* I think they had a good idea who he was and a vague idea who Jarlaxle was. However, the fact was that both of them had just saved the kingdom. Also, Gareth probably realized by this point that any claim of treason was pretty :censored: flimsy. In another kingdom, this wouldn't matter but Gareth is a Paladin and has to worry about these things. Gareth should thank Artemis. Now he can take Vaasa and be looked upon as a hero instead of a conquerer pushing himself on everyone there. Gotta love Jarlaxle! I doubt they're listening but I suggested to the designers the Dragonsbane's descendants are hated oppressors and genocidal maniacs in Vaasa ;-)
Lykor 02-29-08, 10:19 PM	-Assassin = Bad -Paladin = Good -Is it just me? Yes. You see, Assassin = 90's Anti-hero, so they are actually good guys, just misunderstood. Paladin = Square/Suit = The Establishment, which is obviously evil. Good is bad and bad is good! Tiefling Paladin/Assasins FTW!
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 10:33 PM	It helps that the Paladin is committing genocide on the local people that Artemis is defending. No, seriously.
msatran 02-29-08, 11:25 PM	He may be King of Damara, but the witch king's fortress was in Vaasa. What gives him dominion over the wildlands of Vaasa? I don't have respect for stupid laws. Insulting me by suggesting that I'm somehow so stupid that they had to simplify the rules to fit my intelligence is not a good arguement. And politics will ALWAYS be stupid. Uh, High level D+D is all ABOUT Politics. If you don't like it, too bad, don't play the game. Artemis is an evil assassin. Gareth had every right to kill him, and quite frankly, he probably should have.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 11:28 PM	Uh, High level D+D is all ABOUT Politics. If you don't like it, too bad, don't play the game. Artemis is an evil assassin. Gareth had every right to kill him, and quite frankly, he probably should have. Actually, Artemis was already CN by that point. Gareth had, by any realistic standard, also fallen from Paladinhood and become evil himself. However, genocide isn't enough to make you fall in Salvatoreland. There's nice place in the Nine Hells for the Blackguard and his Druid Lady MacBeth.
msatran 02-29-08, 11:33 PM	Well, as far as I'm concerned, Artemis has never deviated from the alignment of Neutral Evil. If Gareth wasn't stupid, and if Gareth detected evil on him, as he probably should have, then you might also want to consider the conditions existing within this land. Ravaged by Dragonrage, repeatedly paralyzed, Messed up by everything else, this is a man who has had to take everything he never wanted and make it his. And now some evil lunatic who has a reputation for being one of the worlds greatest assassins knocks on his door and says "I want to rule in Vassa, in the domain of your greatest enemy!" Only an idiot would say yes. As far as Gareth is concerned, this is like giving power right back to Zhengyi the Witch King. It doesn't matter what his alignment is. I think Gareth was protrayed correctly. I don't think the bard was, but that's neither here nor there, unless you want to make an argument that seducing someone will clearly lead to a more positive relationship between the races. Unlike many of the other people on these boards, you're reasonable. You I can agree to disagree with. But at least you present a reading that's a reading and not just a series of arrogant statements with no training behind them.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 11:46 PM	If Gareth wasn't stupid, and if Gareth detected evil on him, as he probably should have, then you might also want to consider the conditions existing within this land. Ravaged by Dragonrage, repeatedly paralyzed, Messed up by everything else, this is a man who has had to take everything he never wanted and make it his. And now some evil lunatic who has a reputation for being one of the worlds greatest assassins knocks on his door and says "I want to rule in Vassa, in the domain of your greatest enemy!" Yeah, well I respect your opinion and don't actually disagree with you. Gareth resolved the issue pretty much as a Paladin is supposed to in my mind, in that he managed to defuse the situation reasonably non-violently. Were Gareth a Paladin who wasn't involved in the genocide going on in the region (which was Jarlaxle's chief argument against the Half-Orc's city becoming part of Damara), which the story unfortunately seems to present the two contradictory points together, then he'd certainly be justified in having Artemis Entreri executed for all the innocent people he'd killed. Certainly, Gareth could also feel that Artemis and Jarlaxle were merely attempting to build their own army of darkness as well. Still, I think R.A. Salvatore was trying to imply a few things. 1. Gareth sensed that neither Jarlaxle or Artemis Entreri desired to start a war. Gareth's instincts seem right on the money that Artemis cares nothing about his "kingdom" while Jarlaxle is more interested in trade than conquest. 2. Gareth felt a justified or not sense of gratitude to Artemis that they did stop Zhengyi's Dracolich the first time. 3. Gareth has enough self-awareness that claiming Fronteir territory and starting your own kingdom is hardly worthy of death just because you eventually intended to add it toward your kingdom. (In the real world, plenty of kingdoms and nations have done just that) Frankly, we don't get much in the way of "peaceful paladins" so it was a nice change. However, Artemis certainly has warranted death for his crimes many times over and has no real expressed remorse for his deeds at this point. In this case, it's mostly Gareth's own sense of personal integrity that saves Artemis' life. From a legal definition, Gareth had also :censored: Knighted Artemis by that point, hadn't he? That pretty much implies that until the aborted rebellion that Gareth had probably given Artemis an implied Pardon. The sticky issue is that Artemis never swore loyalty either.
msatran 03-01-08, 12:04 AM	Yeah, well I respect your opinion and don't actually disagree with you. Gareth resolved the issue pretty much as a Paladin is supposed to in my mind, in that he managed to defuse the situation reasonably non-violently. Were Gareth a Paladin who wasn't involved in the genocide going on in the region (which was Jarlaxle's chief argument against the Half-Orc's city becoming part of Damara), which the story unfortunately seems to present the two contradictory points together, then he'd certainly be justified in having Artemis Entreri executed for all the innocent people he'd killed. Certainly, Gareth could also feel that Artemis and Jarlaxle were merely attempting to build their own army of darkness as well. Still, I think R.A. Salvatore was trying to imply a few things. 1. Gareth sensed that neither Jarlaxle or Artemis Entreri desired to start a war. Gareth's instincts seem right on the money that Artemis cares nothing about his "kingdom" while Jarlaxle is more interested in trade than conquest. 2. Gareth felt a justified or not sense of gratitude to Artemis that they did stop Zhengyi's Dracolich the first time. 3. Gareth has enough self-awareness that claiming Fronteir territory and starting your own kingdom is hardly worthy of death just because you eventually intended to add it toward your kingdom. (In the real world, plenty of kingdoms and nations have done just that) Frankly, we don't get much in the way of "peaceful paladins" so it was a nice change. However, Artemis certainly has warranted death for his crimes many times over and has no real expressed remorse for his deeds at this point. In this case, it's mostly Gareth's own sense of personal integrity that saves Artemis' life. From a legal definition, Gareth had also :censored: Knighted Artemis by that point, hadn't he? That pretty much implies that until the aborted rebellion that Gareth had probably given Artemis an implied Pardon. The sticky issue is that Artemis never swore loyalty either. If that's the case, then he should have immediately executed him. With no oath of loyalty, that clearly represents a violation of the knights code. The only reason not to execute him would be to demonstrate his qualities of mercy to other vassals who he might feel thought he was treating them too harshly, which, given the recent ravaging of Damara (AGAIN, Sigh), I could conceivably see. But realistically, if you knight someone, you should expect them to be loyal to you as a fact of knighthood. I take knighthood very seriously in my game, a group of PCs in Impiltur are about to be knighted, and from there will stem a whole HOST of other problems that come with being Knighted, such as "Well, now you're the most recent heroes! Deal with problems X, Y, and Z." In fact, I'll even show you the game in PM, and you can say "That's cool!" or "That sucks!"
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 12:11 AM	Then that would have been an act of murder and violation of the oaths of hospitality. Certainly, my player characters would spend all their time levelling up to hunt down and execute Gareth and all of his descendents for luring a man to Damara that saved a land only to treacherously murder him in cold blood. Unless they demanded an oath of loyalty for so honoring him as part of it, it was a reward without question. Then again, I treat things like hospitality and oathbreaking very seriously in my games. Gareth would rocket up to Bane's level, even with all the good he's done, if he invited Artemis there to murder him. The issue you're discussing would be Artemis accepting the knighthood under false pretenses. Artemis would never swear allegiance to a man and would make it clear from the beginning that any knighting that involved such a vow he would never take, irregardless of what Jarlaxle would suggest. Artemis is a soulless assassin and a murderer but he has his weird quirks.
Green Elven Vampire 03-01-08, 12:20 AM	If that's the case, then he should have immediately executed him. With no oath of loyalty, that clearly represents a violation of the knights code. The only reason not to execute him would be to demonstrate his qualities of mercy to other vassals who he might feel thought he was treating them too harshly, which, given the recent ravaging of Damara (AGAIN, Sigh), I could conceivably see. But realistically, if you knight someone, you should expect them to be loyal to you as a fact of knighthood. I take knighthood very seriously in my game, a group of PCs in Impiltur are about to be knighted, and from there will stem a whole HOST of other problems that come with being Knighted, such as "Well, now you're the most recent heroes! Deal with problems X, Y, and Z." In fact, I'll even show you the game in PM, and you can say "That's cool!" or "That sucks!" Knights.... Samurai.... monks... thug, street scum bags?!! What does it all matter? Entreri will be a vassal for Salvatore to exploit once 4ED comes to novel time!!! Entreri slays the Pit Fiend... Entreri lays low the Balor... Why not Entreri puts two swords through the neck of Drizzt and be done with it? Entreri downs 75 goblins, 35 trolls and 1 wizard! Come the Nine Hells on!!!!! If you're such a skilled assassin, fighter and rogue then a wizard, bard or sorcerer should be cake under 20'th level. Only if you're a true assassin! I hope 4ED sees the death of Entreri and Drizzt in a maelstrom of hedonistic binging and debaucherous sinning! Wait... I need to vomit in the basement corner!
Teh_username 03-01-08, 12:28 AM	Not having read the book(s?) in question, this entire discussion has seemed off-topic and kind of ridiculous to this one, but a comment seemed necessary on this point in particular:Like I said, Artemis wasn't an assassin in Damara. So the law doesn't apply to him and they were not trying him for being an assassin previously. They didn't know who he was. Oh unless you count the 1 level in the prc in which case *rolls his eyes* Now, this may come as a surprise to you, but feudal/medieval fantasy legal systems are not exactly known for holding to habeas corpus, nor any sort of presumption of innocence. Rather, those nobles responsible for the laws understand that "justice" is for "just us". ;) If this one reads correctly, the domain was also under a sort of martial law (paladin in control, war against orcs/goblins/etc.), yes? Such is not exactly "neutral ground" for a well-known assassin, i.e. a possible saboteur, foreign spy, or...assassin. While this one's comments may be inapplicable based on the circumstances in question, do keep in mind how curious it is to apply prejudices based on "modern" legal system to decisions made on one that is anything but.
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 12:28 AM	They better not harm the goddess of fluffy kitties!:mad:http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd3/Bast_p143.jpg Heeeelloooo, KITTY!!! :D
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 12:31 AM	While this one's comments may be inapplicable based on the circumstances in question, do keep in mind how curious it is to apply prejudices based on "modern" legal system to decisions made on one that is anything but. 1. Yeah, the issue is that any true heroes would hunt Gareth to the ends of Toil if he killed Artemis under false truce. 2. After the revolt, it was largely just Gareth's preferences. Though if they surrendered, it might cost him his paladinhood. The medieval world was like the modern one in that the law favors he who gets away with it but they had their own particular ways of doing things (subject to local custom)
Green Elven Vampire 03-01-08, 12:36 AM	Yeah!!!!.... WOOT!!!... Paladins are awesome! Can't wait to play me one!
msatran 03-01-08, 01:21 AM	Not having read the book(s?) in question, this entire discussion has seemed off-topic and kind of ridiculous to this one, but a comment seemed necessary on this point in particular: Now, this may come as a surprise to you, but feudal/medieval fantasy legal systems are not exactly known for holding to habeas corpus, nor any sort of presumption of innocence. Rather, those nobles responsible for the laws understand that "justice" is for "just us". ;) If this one reads correctly, the domain was also under a sort of martial law (paladin in control, war against orcs/goblins/etc.), yes? Such is not exactly "neutral ground" for a well-known assassin, i.e. a possible saboteur, foreign spy, or...assassin. While this one's comments may be inapplicable based on the circumstances in question, do keep in mind how curious it is to apply prejudices based on "modern" legal system to decisions made on one that is anything but. Thank you so much! I was hoping not to have the feudalism rant, but thankfully, someone else got there first...
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 01:28 AM	Just a quick 'heads up' - The Time Portal was not solely invented so people could 'bypass' the Spellplague. It appeared HERE first (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030402b). ;) I thought I remembered it from somewhere, I used another of those Time Portals in my own CK article.
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 01:45 AM	Like I said, Artemis wasn't an assassin in Damara. So the law doesn't apply to him and they were not trying him for being an assassin previously. -Entreri is an assassin. The law applies to everyone. They didn't know who he was. Oh unless you count the 1 level in the prc in which case *rolls his eyes* -Right. In case they've never heard of a world renound assassin, how 'bout his buddy, the leader of a large scale organized crime syndicate? Gareth should thank Artemis. Now he can take Vaasa and be looked upon as a hero instead of a conquerer pushing himself on everyone there. -One's conqueror is another's hero. If Gareth conqueror the wilds of Vaasa, the Humans of all over would hail him a hero for eradicating the Goblinoid filth that was a ticking timebomb. Yes. You see, Assassin = 90's Anti-hero, so they are actually good guys, just misunderstood. Paladin = Square/Suit = The Establishment, which is obviously evil. Good is bad and bad is good! Tiefling Paladin/Assasins FTW! -Oh, I see. 1. Yeah, the issue is that any true heroes would hunt Gareth to the ends of Toil if he killed Artemis under false truce. -Wait, wait...So, any true hero would hunt down the Paladin King Gareth Dragonsbane, for killing an assassin, who rallied against the throne in his own domain? Right...
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 01:59 AM	-Wait, wait...So, any true hero would hunt down the Paladin King Gareth Dragonsbane, for killing an assassin, who rallied against the throne in his own domain? Right... Violating hospitality is pretty much the unforgivable. With so few taboos in the Realms, it's pretty much there's nothing that can be done to atone. Heroes who'd saved the world would give their lives to see the "Paladin" dead. Because the entire social order is at stake. I said "Pretty much imagine the kind of sick outrage in the world that you can muster and then apply to the guy who violates the flag of truce. Also, realize, that they will never ever be trusted again by anyone and people will spit at their memory until the end of time." Then again, I've had Fzoul Chembryl refuse to violate it. If you are invited to dinner at Zhentil Keep, you're safe and no one will harm you. In fact, Fzoul might say "I dash women and children's heads against the wall but I'm not bad as THAT guy." rallied against the throne in his own domain? Right... Dude, King Gareth said that he had no real legal claim to Vaasa. Are you arguing with him? It was his shrew of a wife that said otherwise, Druid MacBeth seemed to utterly miss her husband said "You know, he's absolutely right. He did nothing illegal." Apparently, she's too much in her lah lah land to hear Gareth.
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 02:07 AM	There are dozens of instances I can think of where even wholly evil characters did NOT violate a truce, from Dragons to Liches to Yamun Kahan of the Horde (he had Azoun IN his tent!) I believe Charles is right, at least on that one pont - there is a certain amount of unnatural 'honor' floating around the Realms. ;)
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 02:14 AM	Yeah and I'm sure plenty of guys wouldn't think twice about it. But for a King to do it and a Paladin? The "stupid rules" unfortunately mean something for both his position and Jarlaxle. As soon as Gareth agreed to treat with Jarlaxle and Artemis as Kings rather than criminals holed up in a Castle, then things became very complicated. Actually, arguably as soon as Gareth stupidly (but honorably) rewarded Artemis for slaying the Dracolich. I think it may be reading too much George Martin for me, but it helps with the Realms alienness to add a bit of "Oh god, no you DIDN'T!" to something that's perfectly normal to us.
msatran 03-01-08, 02:14 AM	In certain instances, yes. However, a lot of that honor is starting to disappear.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 02:19 AM	I tend to keep a record of "dishonorable scum" vs. "honorable scum" People who don't have any honor whatsoever: Drow, Orcs, The Netherese, Manshoon, Cyricists, Beholders, and Illithids People who can be reasonably expected to honor the formalities: Duegar, Fzoul Chembryl, Liches, Hobgoblins, Dragons (Blue and Green mostly but most will indulge the appearance of it because of pride), Thayans And in the case of Manshoon, he only does it under the table. Likewise, the Drow usually honor the attitude of truces while it being expected that if you die of poisoning at a enemy's dinner table, that was an unfortunate accident. Orcs, on the other hand, just don't GET IT but that may be changing with Obould the Human Lover. But yes, they'd pretty much call King Gareth the Oathbreaker rather than the Dragonsbane if he'd killed Artemis after calling for his surrender.
Zanan 03-01-08, 06:53 AM	Any chance that we stay with the topic and use another thread for the Vaasa, Damara, Artemis and Gareth stuff?
msatran 03-01-08, 09:57 AM	Probably so. My problem with this whole deal is that WE are the ones doing the wailing. It's almost like the source material is laughing in our faces and insulting us. "The Wailing Years." Well, guess what. They're going to be hearing this from us forever.
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 11:26 AM	But just think of the poor Marine Mammals! Probably so. My problem with this whole deal is that WE are the ones doing the wailing.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Whaling-french_and_dead_whale.jpeg/405px-Whaling-french_and_dead_whale.jpeg Its brutal and inhumane! I am totally against the Whaling Years!!! :( :P ;)
msatran 03-01-08, 02:32 PM	Well, you know how it is. Cosmetics companies make perfume from whale mucus, so that is what it is. No wonder the Realms is so screwed up.
Meldread 03-01-08, 02:34 PM	Dude, that guy in the white shoes is so screwed. Can you imagine the stain? :P
Kenzuki 03-01-08, 06:49 PM	The Detect Alignment spells were retarded and I'm happy to see them removed. My point is, Gareth's friends were no better than Artemis or Jarlaxle. If those misfits are your idea of good, than I'll take evil anyday. At least Artemis is honest about being a bastard. Gareth didn't have the right to kill Artemis for a crime he didn't commit. He wasn't being tried for being an assassin, so you can't kill him for that without trying him for that. That's a shame trial and you know it.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 06:56 PM	Gareth didn't have the right to kill Artemis for a crime he didn't commit. He wasn't being tried for being an assassin, so you can't kill him for that without trying him for that. That's a shame trial and you know it. Yes, it's the odd case of Gareth being able to kill Artemis for any number of crimes but NOT the one he was accused of. Likewise, no one would begrudge killing Artemis in battle or killing him for his "revolt" EXCEPT Gareth because he recognizes Artemis' argument is right. It's the flaw of a Paladin.
Kenzuki 03-01-08, 07:06 PM	Yes, it's the odd case of Gareth being able to kill Artemis for any number of crimes but NOT the one he was accused of. Likewise, no one would begrudge killing Artemis in battle or killing him for his "revolt" EXCEPT Gareth because he recognizes Artemis' argument is right. It's the flaw of a Paladin. I think a Paladin should be good as well as lawful. Thus he wouldn't kill Artemis "just cuz" like these other folk are suggesting. "Well Artemis you were good enough to be in my lands as long as you did what I said. But as soon as you claimed the draco lich's tower whom you slew, well you lost your usefulness." Hypocrisy I say!
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 07:29 PM	I think a Paladin should be good as well as lawful. Thus he wouldn't kill Artemis "just cuz" like these other folk are suggesting. "Well Artemis you were good enough to be in my lands as long as you did what I said. But as soon as you claimed the draco lich's tower whom you slew, well you lost your usefulness." Hypocrisy I say! Yeah, which is ironically what Gareth did. Honestly, I was hoping someone would confirm that Gareth didn't know about the ethnic cleansing going on in his portion of Vaasa and put a stop to it. On the other hand, that would just make a :censored: poor monarch.
Kenzuki 03-01-08, 07:58 PM	Not only that but you're trying to win the favor of the town of half-orcs while at the same time killing their kin out in the wilderness where they've lived for centuries. "Oh but all orcs are all EVOL! There are no such things as good orcs!" So happy they are changing the way Alignment works.
GothicDan 03-01-08, 09:49 PM	The orcs probably have little cohesion as a culture. I mean, it's not like humans have ever killed each other, and then tried to ally with others, right? Oh, wait...
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 10:29 PM	I think they should have just gotten rid of humans in 4e... such an evil race. :nonono:
Dark Wizard 03-01-08, 11:02 PM	I get a kick out of reading FR 4E preview articles because I keep catching snippets, concepts, and phrases that really remind me of the abomination of an entry I submitted to the setting design contest all those years ago. "Core Ethos Sentence: ... a setting of epic adventure where divine forces have disrupted the elemental balance of the world, twisting and distorting its terrain." "...the assassination of many of the good deities has stirred ancient beings and created new aberrations in the world. It has also attracted some inner and outer planar beings..." "...the battle of the gods have pulled islands right off the surface and suspended them in the air." "An entire [section of the] Underdark has been retched from the folds of the planet and exposed on all sides..." "Waterfalls run down floating islands... "
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 11:40 PM	Violating hospitality is pretty much the unforgivable. With so few taboos in the Realms, it's pretty much there's nothing that can be done to atone. Heroes who'd saved the world would give their lives to see the "Paladin" dead. Because the entire social order is at stake. -A King, as an absolute monarch, has the right do rule his realm however he/she wishes. Dude, King Gareth said that he had no real legal claim to Vaasa. Are you arguing with him? It was his shrew of a wife that said otherwise, Druid MacBeth seemed to utterly miss her husband said "You know, he's absolutely right. He did nothing illegal." Apparently, she's too much in her lah lah land to hear Gareth. -As I said before, might makes right. King Gareth conquered (or was in the process thereof) Vaasa. He is the legitimate ruler of said lands. My point is, Gareth's friends were no better than Artemis or Jarlaxle. -By acting completely within their rights to? Gareth didn't have the right to kill Artemis for a crime he didn't commit. -Yes he did. It's called being an assassin in Damara. Don't like that? It's called trying to rebel against the crown. Don't like that? It's called defying the law, which stated that no one was to inhabit the Castle of the Witch-King. Don't like that? It's called the King is an absolute monarch, and can rule his realm as he sees fit, and can arbitrarily kill anyone, if he wants to. Don't like that? He wasn't being tried for being an assassin, so you can't kill him for that without trying him for that. That's a shame trial and you know it. -See above.
Charles Phipps 03-02-08, 12:01 AM	-A King, as an absolute monarch, has the right do rule his realm however he/she wishes. Which is why subjects invented the concept of Mandate of Heaven and other concepts, which basically say that if a King crosses these lines, then the gods will punish them horribly. Technically, an oathbreaker is not a King. Automatically, their feudal contract is rendered null and void along with every previous agreement that they have. It's like testimony in a court of law where someone is guilty of pejury (in fact-exactly so). Literally, you really aren't able to be trusted with anything. -As I said before, might makes right. King Gareth conquered (or was in the process thereof) Vaasa. He is the legitimate ruler of said lands. ??? Where did he conquer Vaasa? He conquered PART of it but Artemis seemed to have established his portion quite clearly. -By acting completely within their rights to? Again, I don't know if I'd have Kelemvor allow them into their respective afterlives if they'd break an oath. It's like automatic "Damned before the Gods." Except, you know, if you worship Cyric. -Yes he did. It's called being an assassin in Damara. Don't like that? It's called trying to rebel against the crown. Don't like that? It's called defying the law, which stated that no one was to inhabit the Castle of the Witch-King. Don't like that? It's called the King is an absolute monarch, and can rule his realm as he sees fit, and can arbitrarily kill anyone, if he wants to. Don't like that? Well, if Gareth broke his surrender accord, he's not a King of anything. He's an oathbreaker and adventuring parties will loot his Castle because it's haunted by his ghost after his death because Ilmater will never allow him to leave the face of Faerun. He's a Fallen Paladin equal to Lord Soth. Also, Gareth already made Artemis Entreri a Knight of the Realm and accepted him as a Vassal even if Artemis didn't swear fealty.
Charles Phipps 03-02-08, 12:11 AM	Like I said, you're technically right. The problem is that King Gareth made Artemis Entreri a knight. Frankly, the whole concept of Absolute Monarch is actually an invention of LATER Kings. From the very beginning of the social arrangement, the idea was that Fealty was something that was given by Lords that had absolute power within their own demense. In other words, a King did NOT own the territory of the Lords beneath him for the most part. It was owned by the families of the Lords underneath him. The Forgotten Realms are decidedly varied in this respect with Cormyr's Obarkyr's having enough authority that they can dissolve the Cormaeril lineage as a whole while rendering it outlawed. In most of Feudal History, Kings did not have that authority and no one would gainsay lords fighting over it. For mythological sources, Uther Pendragon was not within his legal rights to take the wife of one of his vassals since that was quite illegal under the tenants of the law. His will as King did not trump the Law of God (that his vassal was married under) nor provide him the ability to declare his vassal a criminal. Indeed, his vassal was fully within his rights to meet Uther Pendragon on the fields of battle. A word from Conan on the subject "How did you come to your crown, you and that ****-faced pig beside you? Your fathers did the fighting and the suffering, and handed their crowns to you on golden platters. What you inherited without lifting a finger - except to poison a few brothers - I fought for. You sit on satin and guzzle wine the people sweat for, and talk of divine rights of sovereignty - bah! I climbed out of the abyss of naked barbarism to the throne and in that climb I spilt my blood as freely as I spilt that of others. If either of us has the right to rule men, by Crom, it is I! How have you proved yourselves my superiors?" "I found Aquilonia in the grip of a pig like you - one who traced his genealogy for a thousand years. The land was torn with the wars of the barons, and the people cried out under oppression and taxation. Today no Aquilonian noble dares maltreat the humblest of my subjects, and the taxes of the people are lighter than anywhere else in the world. What of you? Your brother, Amalrus, holds the eastern half of your kingdom, and defies you. And you, Strabonus, your soldiers are even now besieging castles of a dozen or more rebellious barons. The people of both your kingdoms are crushed into the earth by tyrannous taxes and levies."
Kenzuki 03-02-08, 07:51 PM	-A King, as an absolute monarch, has the right do rule his realm however he/she wishes. -As I said before, might makes right. King Gareth conquered (or was in the process thereof) Vaasa. He is the legitimate ruler of said lands. -By acting completely within their rights to? -Yes he did. It's called being an assassin in Damara. Don't like that? It's called trying to rebel against the crown. Don't like that? It's called defying the law, which stated that no one was to inhabit the Castle of the Witch-King. Don't like that? It's called the King is an absolute monarch, and can rule his realm as he sees fit, and can arbitrarily kill anyone, if he wants to. Don't like that? -See above. So you agree then that Gareth is no more good than Artemis than by those standards? Might makes right really means the strongest is in the right. So if the Banite clergy were to kick the crap out of the local Church of Lathander that would automatically make the Banites good because they are right? Blarggh, whatever. Let's just say I disagree and call all of Gareth's flunkies a bunch of self righteous hypocrites. Oh and to correct MS earlier. Artemis is Lawful Evil not Neutral Evil.
msatran 03-02-08, 08:20 PM	Clearly, you don't read the alignment section in the players handbook as far as I'm concerned. It really doesn't matter what the source material says. If you read the text, and then compare it to the definitions of alignment, you will find that interpretation is at least equally feasible.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 08:23 PM	Gareth = Murdering scum. :P Anyhow, if Brian is around, I have a question.. You seem to have gone into the new Kingdom of Gulthandor somewhat... what, if anything, will this mean for the gate of Ilimar? Located in the western Gulthmere, near Nathlekh - http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs28/f/2008/062/a/0/Gulthmere_by_Markustay.jpg The other end of which is on the border of Halruaa and Dambrath (see Serpent Kingdoms) Also, I just realized YOUR time portal is very different from the other one located nearby. I included the Volcano for a reference. ;)
Kenzuki 03-02-08, 08:36 PM	Clearly, you don't read the alignment section in the players handbook as far as I'm concerned. It really doesn't matter what the source material says. If you read the text, and then compare it to the definitions of alignment, you will find that interpretation is at least equally feasible. Clearly, you don't realize that I don't care what it says. His alignment is listed as Lawful Evil. Jarlaxle I can believe to be Neutral Evil, but Artemis has his own code he lives by.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 02:16 AM	Gareth = Murdering scum. :P -95% of the world is murdering scum, apparently. Anyhow, if Brian is around, I have a question.. -Might as well ask him at Candlekeep, so he doesn't overlook your question accidentally.
MarkusTay63 03-03-08, 11:22 AM	-95% of the world is murdering scum, apparently.Now your getting it... ;) More like 99%, though... Especially adventurers - bunch of no-good, theiving, house-breaking, tomb-robbing, murderous scum! What else would you call a group that traveled into someone else's lands just to kill them and take their stuff... -Might as well ask him at Candlekeep, so he doesn't overlook your question accidentally.Strangely, I almost never ask questions there, except on the thread where you ask the other 'Sages' (Grognards, Loremasters, etc...) I used to post questions on the Greenwood thread, but they always seemed to be ignored... :(
msatran 03-03-08, 12:35 PM	I think a Paladin should be good as well as lawful. Thus he wouldn't kill Artemis "just cuz" like these other folk are suggesting. "Well Artemis you were good enough to be in my lands as long as you did what I said. But as soon as you claimed the draco lich's tower whom you slew, well you lost your usefulness." Hypocrisy I say! Your problem is your definition of lawful good. The only question that Gareth needs to ask is this: "What is the greatest good for the greatest number?" That's it. Neutral Good asks "What is the greatest good as a whole?" This is NOT the same question. Chaotic Good asks: What is the greatest good according to my beliefs in the code of behavior that I follow? Does this mean that Lawful Good is actually the biggest rat bastard alignment in the game? Absolutely. Could Gareth have executed Artemis based on that alone? Yes. Would Illmater have judged him harshly for it? Possibly.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 12:56 PM	Your problem is your definition of lawful good. The only question that Gareth needs to ask is this: "What is the greatest good for the greatest number?" That's it. Neutral Good asks "What is the greatest good as a whole?" This is NOT the same question. Chaotic Good asks: What is the greatest good according to my beliefs in the code of behavior that I follow? Does this mean that Lawful Good is actually the biggest rat bastard alignment in the game? Absolutely. Could Gareth have executed Artemis based on that alone? Yes. Would Illmater have judged him harshly for it? Possibly. So you agree that Gareth's cronies were in the wrong then right?
Lyvannalas 03-03-08, 02:34 PM	I am kinda wondering if the people argueing for Entreris immediate execution did even bother to read the book. I won´t repeat the many things already said about the situation, but I want to state that the book unequivocally stated that the whole bunch of friends of King Gareth didn´t have that much information about Entreri and Jarlaxle. Unrealistic? Maybe. But considering the power level of all the "well known" people in the Realms, Entreri and Jarlaxle are still minor players, so I *can* kinda see it. Entreri himself is not exactly portrayed as evil during the book and in fact has had a steady evolution away from that alignment, so I can see how Dragonbanes "Evil Radar" didn´t go off immediately. As far as Jarlaxle goes, his alignment is really anyones guess. Salvatore has pretty much ignored the rules anyway to facilitate his plots ( or at least handwaved them, see Regis and other halflings ) , so who knows what passes for "Detect Evil" in his books. As far as the topic about alignment goes, I find the removal of it to be pretty sad. While I understand that alignments are not realistic for a "real world" setting, I still think that for a fantasy setting they work just fine. If there are real Gods, you really go to their realm when you die and they really expect you to behave in a certain way, then, yeah, alignments suddenly make a lot of sense. If you have Torm as a patron deity, you better try to be a shining example of his credo, otherwise you might be better off worshipping Lord Valium, patron deity of "Meh". :D
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 03:29 PM	I used to post questions on the Greenwood thread, but they always seemed to be ignored... :( -I hear you. That's why I've largely stopped, although I have so many questions I could ask him. I am kinda wondering if the people argueing for Entreris immediate execution did even bother to read the book. -Would we be arguing about it if we hadn't read it? That's stupid.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 03:31 PM	I always thought the Detect Alignment spells were retarded anyway. You couldn't have spies in your court, you couldn't have demon worshippers infiltrating your church etc. "Hrmmmm evil senses are tingling.....that man is EVOL!"
yarethon 03-03-08, 03:36 PM	I agree. They were the most uninteresting thing in the game. I am glad they are mostly gone.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 03:58 PM	I always thought the Detect Alignment spells were retarded anyway. You couldn't have spies in your court, you couldn't have demon worshippers infiltrating your church etc. "Hrmmmm evil senses are tingling.....that man is EVOL!" -There are various ways to get around that.
Alediran 03-03-08, 04:11 PM	I always thought the Detect Alignment spells were retarded anyway. You couldn't have spies in your court, you couldn't have demon worshippers infiltrating your church etc. "Hrmmmm evil senses are tingling.....that man is EVOL!" Nondetection stops those divinations, and there are more powerful spells to do it.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 04:13 PM	And what are nonspellcasters supposed to do?
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 04:15 PM	And what are nonspellcasters supposed to do? -Drink potions, use items, and suffer, because nonspellcasters are inferior to spellcasters.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 04:17 PM	You're a classist Lord K!
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 04:24 PM	And what are nonspellcasters supposed to do? Buy a Feat that the DM says makes your alignment undetectable.
Lyvannalas 03-03-08, 04:28 PM	-Would we be arguing about it if we hadn't read it? That's stupid. Quite honestly, I have seen too many people talking out of their ass to readily assume that one has to have actually read a book to pass judgement on it. Now, I´m not saying that you are one of those people, but maybe you would like to adress the points I made, instead of conveniently ignoring them. :P
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 04:35 PM	You're a classist Lord K! -I am elitist, racist, subracist, classist, alignmentist, featist, sexist, and classless (Hey, where'd that come from!?), depending on who you ask. Now, I´m not saying that you are one of those people, but maybe you would like to adress the points I made, instead of conveniently ignoring them. :P -I've adressed my feelings on the matter, and that's that. Kenzuki said we should agree to disagree.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 04:42 PM	But if we agree to disagree, we would infact be agreeing and not disagreeing. Or is it the other way around.....
ShadezofDis 03-03-08, 04:49 PM	-I am elitist, racist, subracist, classist, alignmentist, featist, sexist, and classless (Hey, where'd that come from!?), depending on who you ask. It's true! IT'S ALL TRUE!!!!! :weep: So. . . ah. .. do I still qualify as a Hand? I mean, it's been a dogs age and all but I'm still a handy guy. ;)
Keryth 03-03-08, 04:51 PM	I love the guys who come here and say "Now I am really not buying 4e FR!" Dude, there are a ton of threads with you guys saying you won't be buying it already. We get the point. Anyway a rant is just like a tanrum but for adults.;) I love how you and your clique come onto eveyr chat about this New Realms and say, "This new Realms is so cool!". Maybe, just MAYBE, there are a ton of threads on how horrible this New Realms is, BECAUSE IT IS HORRIBLE! We get your point though, you got the Realms killed like you wanted so they'll focus more on 'cool' and 'awesome'. This New Realms, is NOT the Realms, except in name only. And, in all honesty, I give it a lifetime equal to, if not less than, the Age of Mortals for Dragonlance. Hopefully, we'll get something ebtter than one god stealing the world though, but I seriously doubt it.
Keryth 03-03-08, 04:57 PM	After having read the first two instalments on the Realms, I have come to the conclusion that the Spellplague was not simply meant to free the wizard players' characters from the shackles of Mystra's edicts. It was simply to spell-shatter the setting as we know it. The more I read about it - try as I might - the Forgotten Realms are only the Realms in name. I've tried my luck in various gaming worlds but always returned to the Realms I came to love over the years. Maybe it is a bit premature, but as it stands now, I'll hardly have any of my characters set a foot into these new Realms, nor will I touch 4E rule material for some time to come. For they are simply not the Realms I love. Quoted for Truth. Maybe we should start a campaign to stop this? You know, like the Jericho fans did to save the show? How bout bags of manure? Cuz that is what this New Realms is.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 05:40 PM	So. . . ah. .. do I still qualify as a Hand? I mean, it's been a dogs age and all but I'm still a handy guy. ;) -Of course. The ranks of the Hands of Karsus is in my signature, and you're still there, aren't you? ;)
ShadezofDis 03-03-08, 06:30 PM	-Of course. The ranks of the Hands of Karsus is in my signature, and you're still there, aren't you? ;) Sweet, didn't check the first time. . . because. . . well, because I'm lazy. ;)
Rauric 03-03-08, 08:01 PM	I love how you and your clique come onto eveyr chat about this New Realms and say, "This new Realms is so cool!". Maybe, just MAYBE, there are a ton of threads on how horrible this New Realms is, BECAUSE IT IS HORRIBLE! We get your point though, you got the Realms killed like you wanted so they'll focus more on 'cool' and 'awesome'. This New Realms, is NOT the Realms, except in name only. And, in all honesty, I give it a lifetime equal to, if not less than, the Age of Mortals for Dragonlance. Hopefully, we'll get something ebtter than one god stealing the world though, but I seriously doubt it. Nice rant. ;) Actually I would be fine if they left it as is. The thing is I am someone who does not mind either way. I just adapt and have fun.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 08:22 PM	Well, you know how it is. Cosmetics companies make perfume from whale mucus, so that is what it is. No wonder the Realms is so screwed up. I think you're talking about ambergris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambergris).:) It's secreted in the digestive tracts of whales, and I hear it smells quite nice!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 08:24 PM	Gareth didn't have the right to kill Artemis for a crime he didn't commit. Good thing he didn't actually do that, right?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 08:32 PM	I used to post questions on the Greenwood thread, but they always seemed to be ignored... :( Ed's not ignoring them, he just hasn't gotten to them yet.:)
Old Sage 03-03-08, 09:53 PM	I used to post questions on the Greenwood thread, but they always seemed to be ignored... :(He'll get to them. It's just the backlog of questions already asked makes it difficult for Ed to post replies to most questions within the same month they were asked. Or even the same year. I've still got questions for Ed hanging from '04, '05, and '06. Just keep those questions coming; the interest and enthusiasm from Realms scribes is what fuels Ed to keep working away on it...
MarkusTay63 03-03-08, 10:16 PM	Unfortunely, as much as I love the guy, that makes his answers rather useless. :( Usually when I have a question, it has something to do with something I am working on, and I don't always have three years to wait around for an answer. :rolleyes: Don't say it, Karsus.... :smirk: Also, I notice some questions get answered within a page or two, so I think some are taking priority for whatever reason (interest?) Anyway, I do quite well by asking my fellow Scirbes, like YOU, Sage. ;) Besides, Ed's a busy guy, and doesn't need me hounding him about what kind of underwear Zhents wear (boxes, or briefs?) :P I rather leave him to 'fixing' the Realms, ATM. :cool:
Dark Wizard 03-03-08, 10:28 PM	There are at least a half dozen spells and a feat or two that can muddle the alignment detector. At that point, use of detect alignment can become a liability if the caster/paladin lets it become so. It introduces uncertainty into something that is hard to think of as unreliable.
MarkusTay63 03-03-08, 10:33 PM	I always thought that spells of 'non-detection' regarding alignment were kind useless. You're in a church of Lathander, or Ilmater, or whatever, and the priests CAN'T detect your alignment... yeah... that'll go over big. :rolleyes: There's ONLY ONE reason to hide your alignment - you are up to no good! In which case, not being able to read your alignment amounts to the same thing as if they could, making it useless. Now, altering someone's perception of your alignment would be useful. :devil: Of course, if you just get a negative result while trying to 'detect evil', I suppose the caster would think you were good by default.
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 12:17 AM	Unfortunely, as much as I love the guy, that makes his answers rather useless. :( Usually when I have a question, it has something to do with something I am working on, and I don't always have three years to wait around for an answer. :rolleyes: Don't say it, Karsus.... :smirk: -...I don't get it...?
Old Sage 03-04-08, 01:15 AM	Unfortunely, as much as I love the guy, that makes his answers rather useless. :( Usually when I have a question, it has something to do with something I am working on, and I don't always have three years to wait around for an answer. :rolleyes:Aye. Scribes waiting years for replies was an extreme example. It doesn't happen often. At most, you'll likely be waiting a few months. Again, I know it's a lengthy delay [which you, as a DM, sometimes cannot afford], but I think that it's still worth asking the questions anyway. You never know when the type of information you're looking for, may eventually become something useful for other scribes in the future. Also, I notice some questions get answered within a page or two, so I think some are taking priority for whatever reason (interest?)I think it has more to do with what Ed knows he can answer quickly and what may take more time [due to NDA's, lack of time, etc.]. Additionally, I've noticed that some questions, that often may pertain to something he may be currently working on, often receive more rapid attention. Anyway, I do quite well by asking my fellow Scirbes, like YOU, Sage. ;)I'm happy to continue assisting in any way that I can. ;) Besides, Ed's a busy guy, and doesn't need me hounding him about what kind of underwear Zhents wear (boxes, or briefs?) :PAgain, I think I'll re-iterate what I said earlier... "Just keep those questions coming; the interest and enthusiasm from Realms scribes is what fuels Ed to keep working away on it." This is important. Besides, I'd like to know the answer to that particular query myself. :P
MarkusTay63 03-04-08, 02:28 AM	-...I don't get it...?I left you the perfect opening there. ;) In other words, I just got done saying I can't wait years for an answer to a project I'm working on... and you of all people know how long I take to finish anything. :P
ShadezofDis 03-04-08, 11:01 AM	I always thought that spells of 'non-detection' regarding alignment were kind useless. You're in a church of Lathander, or Ilmater, or whatever, and the priests CAN'T detect your alignment... yeah... that'll go over big. :rolleyes: Well, as far as I ever found there isn't a "detect alignment" spell in 3.X (I could be totally wrong), at least there isn't in core, which means that a nondetection spell would be fine, you just don't register as evil, or good, or lawful, etc. Of course, if you just get a negative result while trying to 'detect evil', I suppose the caster would think you were good by default. Depending on the situation, yes. They might also decide you're neutral. But this is sorta besides the point, IMO it's rather rude to just go about detecting evil on random people.
msatran 03-04-08, 12:09 PM	I always thought that spells of 'non-detection' regarding alignment were kind useless. You're in a church of Lathander, or Ilmater, or whatever, and the priests CAN'T detect your alignment... yeah... that'll go over big. :rolleyes: There's ONLY ONE reason to hide your alignment - you are up to no good! In which case, not being able to read your alignment amounts to the same thing as if they could, making it useless. Now, altering someone's perception of your alignment would be ueful. :devil: Of course, if you just get a negative result while trying to 'detect evil', I suppose the caster would think you were good by default. It's unwillingness to remove the item that does it that creates the suspicion. But if I'm powerful enough and heroic enough to have those sorts of enemies, and I have one of those wonderful Greenstone amulets, I rarely, if ever take it off.
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 01:07 PM	I left you the perfect opening there. ;) In other words, I just got done saying I can't wait years for an answer to a project I'm working on... and you of all people know how long I take to finish anything. :P -Oh, gotcha. Nah, why would I mock you (or anyone) about that? But this is sorta besides the point, IMO it's rather rude to just go about detecting evil on random people. -Depends on the situation. If I were the 'Royal Mage', I'd make sure to detect the alignments of everyone who comes to see the 'King', just in case. You know, something like that.
Charles Phipps 03-04-08, 01:12 PM	Do you kick out the good too, because Good guys are just as likely to assassinate a King.
MarkusTay63 03-04-08, 01:18 PM	Good Point. :bow: A king who rules by devine right is technically a despot, so it could very well be the evil guys protecting him. :devil: I love the way you think "outside the Box", Charles. :D
ShadezofDis 03-04-08, 01:21 PM	-Depends on the situation. If I were the 'Royal Mage', I'd make sure to detect the alignments of everyone who comes to see the 'King', just in case. You know, something like that. Indeed, that sort of situation is pretty different from most every other situation in life. And, you have to wonder how some of the high nobility would feel about that (depending on the particular kingdom). And, as far as I know, there really isn't a "detect alignment" or "reveal alignment", just "detect x" spells. Which isn't really an impediment, since there are plenty of spells that aren't detailed but are in existence, but I think you can understand what I'm getting at. Do you kick out the good too, because Good guys are just as likely to assassinate a King. He didn't say anything about kicking out the bad guys, just said "I'd cast the spell." My assumption would be that he'd cast the spell and then watch more closely based on the information from the spell. Probably inform the King as well.
Charles Phipps 03-04-08, 01:23 PM	To be honest, the whole "Psychic Scanning people" actually isn't that game-breaking anyway. However, you have to think Dune and Bene Gesserit. No wonder nobility hate the War Wizards.
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 01:35 PM	Do you kick out the good too, because Good guys are just as likely to assassinate a King. -Did I say I'd kick out the bad guys? No. In order to manuver political alliances, you need to make deals with people both good and bad. Knowledge is power, and knowing the alignment of someone you are dealing with alerts you to the sorts of tactics they might resort to (in and out of combat), and the most effective ways to deal with them (in and out of combat).
msatran 03-08-08, 11:40 AM	I have to agree with Lord Karsus here. Plus, if you don't want Lord Fenric sneaking into the royal bedchamber and stealing the Royal Heir, you need to know how to properly key the forbiddance spell that keeps his evil minions from getting in.
Charles Phipps 03-08-08, 05:51 PM	Yes, but it also keeps Lord Spymaster out! ;-)
msatran 03-08-08, 06:54 PM	Actually, Lord Spymaster can still get by. He has alternate identities. Not everything can stop all the people.
Lord Karsus 03-09-08, 08:46 AM	Actually, Lord Spymaster can still get by. He has alternate identities. Not everything can stop all the people. -Like me, for instance.
MarkusTay63 03-09-08, 01:54 PM	You know, thats the most broken thing, I think, in every fantasy world. If the bad guy wants you dead, even if you're a King, it should be pretty easy to accomplish, considering the incredible amount of options open to you with magic.
Lord Karsus 03-09-08, 07:46 PM	If the bad guy wants you dead, even if you're a King, it should be pretty easy to accomplish, considering the incredble amount of options open to you with magic. -It depends on: A) How much magic you actually have B) How much magic he actually has
MarkusTay63 03-10-08, 02:56 AM	The president of the United States has TONS of Special Servicemen to gaurd him, not to mention the military. But if I got my hands on a working Nuclear Missile, all of that wouldn't do him ANY good what-so-ever. There are spells like Dispell Magic and Mordenkainen's Disjunction that override any protections that a target may have, so it would be fairy simple to launch a well-organized attack against him/her once the magic is shut-down. And new spells are being developed all the time, which mages have no counters for. Plus, take into account that there are beings of sufficient level to drag Tears of Selûne right out of the friggin' sky, and you have my 'nuclear scenario' in a fantasy setting. No amount of magical protection is going to save you from have a small moon dropped on your head. Now that I just 'pinged' the FBI/CIA flags, I should be dragged out of my house in about 15 minutes... :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 03:57 AM	Plus, take into account that there are beings of sufficient level to drag Tears of Selûne right out of the friggin' sky, and you have my 'nuclear scenario' in a fantasy setting. No amount of magical protection is going to save you from have a small moon dropped on your head. In general, it's one of the arguments that exist for reducing magical power. However, the simple fact is that just about any Wizard who actually learns Meteor Swarm is going to realize there's better things to do than assassinate the lords of puny principalities. In truth, it's not that difficult to kill a State Head in our world even with all the protections we have as John Hinkley almost proved and the near assassination of the Pope.
Uzzy 03-10-08, 04:22 AM	In truth, it's not that difficult to kill a State Head in our world even with all the protections we have as John Hinkley almost proved and the near assassination of the Pope. Especially if the assassin doesn't intend to survive the assassination. Of course, for an assassination where the assassin in question not only survives but is never caught or suspected? That's a lot harder. In regards to the Realms, I bet most of the War Wizards time is taken up defending against assassination attempts. Some even get through, like the abicus (or whatever it's called. It's 8am, jeez!) that was seen in Cormyr: The Novel.
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 04:24 AM	Yes, let's not forget that there is ONE benefit that CAN keep away most assassinations. Clerical Divinations. In the Realms, you can hide from any War Wizard but not the Gods. I bet there is a priest of Some God or Multiple Gods praying every morning to know "Will Azoun suffer some terrible attempt and by who" Where treason is concerned, it's a bit like Pre-Crime.
Alediran 03-10-08, 07:12 AM	You can hide even from gods.
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 07:44 AM	You can hide even from gods. With other gods help. In general, when Shar hears every secret in the world, you're pretty much :censored:
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 09:26 AM	The president of the United States has TONS of Special Servicemen to gaurd him, not to mention the military. But if I got my hands on a working Nuclear Missile, all of that wouldn't do him ANY good what-so-ever. There are spells like Dispell Magic and Mordenkainen's Disjunction that override any protections that a target may have, so it would be fairy simple to launch a well-organized attack against him/her once the magic is shut-down. And new spells are being developed all the time, which mages have no counters for. Plus, take into account that there are beings of sufficient level to drag Tears of Selûne right out of the friggin' sky, and you have my 'nuclear scenario' in a fantasy setting. No amount of magical protection is going to save you from have a small moon dropped on your head. -Which is why I said it depends on how much magic you have, and how much magic they have. Now that I just 'pinged' the FBI/CIA flags, I should be dragged out of my house in about 15 minutes... :rolleyes: -Eh, don't worry about the FBI. True story: I comprimised the security of the entire FBI building in D.C. -The FBI is filled with a bunch of Keystone Kops, anyway.
Uzzy 03-10-08, 10:59 AM	Yes, let's not forget that there is ONE benefit that CAN keep away most assassinations. Clerical Divinations. In the Realms, you can hide from any War Wizard but not the Gods. I bet there is a priest of Some God or Multiple Gods praying every morning to know "Will Azoun suffer some terrible attempt and by who" Where treason is concerned, it's a bit like Pre-Crime. Interesting point. I'm going to ask Ed if there is anyone who does that, and what he asks. And yes, you can hide from even the Gods. Or the Gods might answer in cryptic format, as ever. Point is that it's going to be very hard to assassinate someone and get away with it in a world of magic and gods.
Uzzy 03-10-08, 11:18 AM	Regarding the original point of this thread, I'd just like to say that I quite enjoyed the Renaissance feel of the Realms. Something about the rebirth of civilisation that appeals to me just a bit more then psychedelic album covers. Further, am I the only one who felt a little sad upon seeing this sentence in one of Brian's posts? And to ensure that I don't go crazy and unleash a horde of ghazneths on Suzail, Ed Greenwood and Brian "Garen Thal" Cortijo are working with me to ensure the lore is accurate and respectful of prior art. If only the rest of the 4th Edition Realms could be designed by Brian. I think he would be very respectful to prior art.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 11:22 AM	-Forget art. Why can't more people be respectful of prior lore, period?
Uzzy 03-10-08, 11:30 AM	Maybe he meant both? I know I took it as both.
msatran 03-10-08, 11:38 AM	Zalaznar Crinios, the Dark Tree Druid? I'm sorry. I've said this before, I'll say it again. With the wailing years, it's US doing the wailing.
MarkusTay63 03-10-08, 01:34 PM	Yes, evil trees are just SO scarey... talk about your "Wizard of Oz" 6-year-old nightmares... What next? Flying Monkeys? :bored: Regarding the original point of this thread, I'd just like to say that I quite enjoyed the Renaissance feel of the Realms. Something about the rebirth of civilisation that appeals to me just a bit more then psychedelic album covers.QFT I always loved that burgeoning Renaissance feel, that seemed to be always just around the corner, but held in check by the more dominant magic. I guess Aurora's Catalogue is out come 4e. :( Further, am I the only one who felt a little sad upon seeing this sentence in one of Brian's posts?Actually, I was VERY disturbed by it. I always thought those 60's artists who drew those-drugged-inspired landscapes were cheesy rip-offs trying to cash in on the Fantasy craze. I NEVER liked them... and lived through that era. I even asked a question about it in the "Ask the Designers" thread. Yes Album Covers = Vomit City in my book. ________________________________________ ______________________________________ BTW, while looking through old D&D art for some new Avatars, I came across some really old 4e FR art; note the Dragonborn fighting beneath one of those Earth-Motes - http://www.aumania.it/fa/easley/094.jpg Oh wait... my bad... that was Dragonlance... :rolleyes: Great Pic, though. ;)
18DELTA 03-10-08, 02:10 PM	Yes, evil trees are just SO scarey... talk about your "Wizard of Oz" 6-year-old nightmares... What next? Flying Monkeys? :bored: QFT I always loved that burgeoning Renaissance feel, that seemed to be always just around the corner, but held in check by the more dominant magic. I guess Aurora's Catalogue is out come 4e. :( Actually, I was VERY disturbed by it. I always thought those 60's artists who drew those-drugged-inspired landscapes were cheesy rip-offs trying to cash in on the Fantasy craze. I NEVER liked them... and lived through that era. I even asked a question about it in the "Ask the Designers" thread. Yes Album Covers = Vomit City in my book. ________________________________________ ______________________________________ BTW, while looking through old D&D art for some new Avatars, I came across some really old 4e FR art; note the Dragonborn fighting beneath one of those Earth-Motes - http://www.aumania.it/fa/easley/094.jpg Oh wait... my bad... that was Dragonlance... :rolleyes: Great Pic, though. ;) -So it The Forgotten Realms meets Dragonlance:rolleyes: P.S. Flying Monkeys could be kewl or whatever buzzword Rich and Co. are using lately.:rolleyes: 18DELTA:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 03:58 PM	-Forget art. Why can't more people be respectful of prior lore, period? It is just a little bit sad that people feel they have to "promise" us that they'll be respectful of prior lore. That should be a given, IMO. As for artwork, I'm a fan of "accurate" artwork, as far as it's important.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 04:41 PM	Actually, I was VERY disturbed by it. I always thought those 60's artists who drew those-drugged-inspired landscapes were cheesy rip-offs trying to cash in on the Fantasy craze. I NEVER liked them... and lived through that era. -Everybody was on drugs... It is just a little bit sad that people feel they have to "promise" us that they'll be respectful of prior lore. That should be a given, IMO. -Very true.
MarkusTay63 03-10-08, 06:48 PM	Sort of off-topic back relating to things in the article - I found some intersting brushes on DeviantART, and I've been dying to use them. I also found an INCREDIBLE Sand Castle (http://suzuko42.deviantart.com/art/Sand-Castle-2-20699579) that I wanted to do something with. so, without much further ado, my very poor attempt at some 'real art'. http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs26/f/2008/070/9/5/Castles_in_the_Sky_by_Markustay.jpg Notice the moon no longer has its illusion (which is my tie-in to this thread). ;) Don't mind the cheesy 'mysterious fog' around the Earth Mote - I can't draw for s__t. :(
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 06:50 PM	-Damn, that's a sand castle...Impressive.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 12:31 PM	Sort of off-topic back relating to things in the article - I found some intersting brushes on DeviantART, and I've been dying to use them. I also found an INCREDIBLE Sand Castle (http://suzuko42.deviantart.com/art/Sand-Castle-2-20699579) that I wanted to do something with. so, without much further ado, my very poor attempt at some 'real art'. http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs26/f/2008/070/9/5/Castles_in_the_Sky_by_Markustay.jpg Notice the moon no longer has its illusion (which is my tie-in to this thread). ;) Don't mind the cheesy 'mysterious fog' around the Earth Mote - I can't draw for s__t. :( I like. :) But, I think it'd be more appropriate at the beach.;)
msatran 03-11-08, 01:44 PM	I think that the thing that Wizards has REALLY forgotten is this. They treat the Forgotten Realms like a campaign setting, but it no longer is. The Forgotten Realms, thanks to the novels, and the hype, and it's popularity, as evinced by the rejection of the 4th edition realms, is a BRAND. It is a collection of ideas that mean different things to different people that produce a market. And when you mess with a brand the way that they have, it's a disaster. This is like changing the formula for Coke, and we all know how well that turned out. The differences are too severe, I think. In the end, what will probably happen is something like Coke Classic. We're already seeing it. People buying up classic realmslore supplements on Ebay, and the ultimate goal of Hasbro, I think, will be that D+D gets dropped from their repertoire and sold.
duncansalazar 03-11-08, 02:03 PM	I think that the thing that Wizards has REALLY forgotten is this. They treat the Forgotten Realms like a campaign setting, but it no longer is. The Forgotten Realms, thanks to the novels, and the hype, and it's popularity, as evinced by the rejection of the 4th edition realms, is a BRAND. It is a collection of ideas that mean different things to different people that produce a market. And when you mess with a brand the way that they have, it's a disaster. This is like changing the formula for Coke, and we all know how well that turned out. The differences are too severe, I think. In the end, what will probably happen is something like Coke Classic. We're already seeing it. People buying up classic realmslore supplements on Ebay, and the ultimate goal of Hasbro, I think, will be that D+D gets dropped from their repertoire and sold. Agreed. Check my sig. Follow the Campaign.
Mula 03-12-08, 01:04 AM	And when you mess with a brand the way that they have, it's a disaster. This is like changing the formula for Coke, and we all know how well that turned out. Or like what WotC did with D&D after buying it from TSR. 3e was a dis... oh, wait...
MarkusTay63 03-12-08, 01:07 AM	In all fairness, the people who bought TSR - Wizards of the Coast - are gone now. Hasbro bought the name, and those visionaries are departed for greener pastures. I heard that the guy who thought up New Coke works for Hasbro now, But I think that might have only been a rumor started when the 4e stuff came out after Gencon. If its true, its funny as hell.
Dark Wizard 03-12-08, 01:25 AM	Many of those initial complaints against 3e did come true. The 3e system had a lot of clunk as well and developed more of it as time went on. The system was an epic fail in regards to balancing classes like the ranger, paladin, bard and monk to even classes like the barbarian and rogue. That is why in 3.5e, all four of those classes received some hefty revisions. Very early on there were complains about how feats worked, how PrCs worked, how skills worked. The clerics lost some flexibility to be customized based on deity worshiped. Item creation was still a problem. Equipment dependency was still a problem. We can see 4E address some of these issues, albeit in some unexpected ways. For the Realms, 3e was a disaster of sorts. The designers themselves admitted that the Realms gradually lost sales. That is the main justificiation for changing it to the degree they have.