Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Misyrr 03-04-04, 12:43 AM	Emperors Choice have announced the release of The World of Khaas: The Legendary Lands of Arduin, a comprehensive world/campaign guide inspired by Dave Hargrave's "Arduin Grimiore" series. The 800+ page hardcover will contain over 80 maps. It is expected to be released on March 22 for $59.95. Wizards of the Coast, I'd very much like to see something of this sort of monstrous proportions released for the Realms. I'd like the material to be something along the lines of Encyclopedia Faerūnia by Ed Greenwood. A THICK leather-bound volume of extensive details and notes from the master of Realmslore himself. Save us from having to make comments along the lines of:The farmers were given one line descriptions, and there were no maps of their farms. The only maps were of the Twisted Tower, the Old Skull Inn, and Elminster's Tower. I want maps of all the farms (especially Storm's farm), all the buildings, and Grimstead. I want more art of those areas. I want detailed descriptions of all the villagers, soldiers, and neighbors dogs. I want a detailed history of Shadowdale...I'm talking about what makes this place a living, breathing village. How does Sulcar Reedo feel about living in the same town as the most powerful mage in Faerun? These people have stories, and I wanna hear them. That is what makes the game come to life. I need that stuff. The thing that makes me so irritated is that I'm sure Ed has all this information. But will we ever get to read it? I sure hope so. The Shadowdale booklet that came with the boxed set was great, but it was a tease. It hurts to think of how much was left out. Give the players and the DMs of the Forgotten Realms what they really want... MASSIVE TONS OF FLUFF to make up for the MASSIVE TONS OF CRUNCH you've recently produced.
Misyrr 03-04-04, 12:46 AM	Just to clarify, I don't know what specifically will be in The World of Khaas: The Legendary Lands of Arduin, but the 80 maps and 800 pages is quite pleasing on the eyes. I meant I'd like to see something of this magnitude released for the Realms.
Amoun 03-04-04, 04:37 AM	More fluff would be really really nice... All these prestige class, feats, etc.. etc... are starting to give me a head ache... I mean there werent half as many kits in 2nd edition and those were pretty numerous heh
Faraer 03-04-04, 09:54 AM	It's the bean-guys you have to convince of this, not the brand managers or staff designers, and they have very set ideas about what sells. It's more likely to be worth encouraging Wizards to look for a licensee to publish such covetable long-awaited stuff. Words mean things, and perpetuating this derogatory term 'fluff' -- which brands everyone who ever wrote any creative material without roleplaying game stats as creating something insubstantial and trivial, and which you'll note that no professional game author uses -- will do more harm to the cause of publishing information about the Realms (that is, not fluff but content) than the good of asking for it.
gustav 03-04-04, 10:08 AM	More fluff would be nice. I am only buying the new FR accessories because I collect FR accessories and want to have a complete collection. I do not need all the new feats, spells and prestige classes. I want fluff. I would love to buy books with pictures of FR coins, FR herbs, names of cheeses and beers. Pictures of famous statues .....
Misyrr 03-04-04, 10:30 AM	Originally posted by Faraer Words mean things, and perpetuating this derogatory term 'fluff' -- which brands everyone who ever wrote any creative material without roleplaying game stats as creating something insubstantial and trivial, and which you'll note that no professional game author uses -- will do more harm to the cause of publishing information about the Realms (that is, not fluff but content) than the good of asking for it. I'd never actually considered it derogatory myself, but I defintely see what you're saying. I'll not use the term again. As far as I can tell it'll be absolutely impossible to convince these "bean-counters" that anything is better than what they've perceived to be the best way to make money. We'll have to rely on what little Ed and others can provide on Wizards.com (Realmslore articles, et cetera). I'm quite disheartened.
ENHenry 03-04-04, 11:25 AM	ANYTHING can be done, as long as it can be shown to make money. The fact is, unless your overhead is VERY low, making a product similar to the way both you and Ed want to make them (leather-bound, with at least three cloth bookmarks according to Ed), and filled with stories, forgotten lore, and tales a-plenty, it would lose some serious money for its publisher. Even charging $60.00 a book would not recoup the cost of simply creating such a volume in terms of labor and resources. Much as I'd like to see it myself, making such a thing, and then having (maybe) 5,000 people buying it wouldn't begin to return their investment. If it were done by a small company, however, without salaries, benefits, work contracts, rental space, etc. to think of? It would be doable and profitable. But I don't see Ed putting up his own money to license an independent FR work from WotC anytime soon. :)
Faraer 03-04-04, 12:49 PM	Hey, I won one. (See this EN World thread (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79363) about the f-word.) The current Realms sourcebooks have to describe the Realms for those who use the Realms, give some kind of value to those who don't, and attract new people to the setting. Ed's writing is critical to that last, as few write the Realms with his passion and belief, and he'll be writing them when the current staff writers have moved on. Otherwise too much burden is placed on the novels to get people into the Realms, and they set up certain expectations that the sourcebooks will never reward. ENHenry's point about overheads is right; a company with big overheads and a need for big margins is not ideal to publish world sourcebooks, a medium which isn't mainstream, because so many people have poorly trained imaginations that need their narratives fed. Despite the magnitude of what we're not getting, if you compare the abundance of Realmslore (through novels (e.g. the wealth of merchant lore in Hand of Fire), sourcebooks, web articles, and Ed's postings) to worlds such as Middle-earth or the Hyborian Age, we're privileged. Situation could be much worse.
druid berrymore 03-04-04, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by ENHenry ANYTHING can be done, as long as it can be shown to make money. The fact is, unless your overhead is VERY low, making a product similar to the way both you and Ed want to make them (leather-bound, with at least three cloth bookmarks according to Ed), and filled with stories, forgotten lore, and tales a-plenty, it would lose some serious money for its publisher. Okay. So it would lose money. We've heard that before. I for one would buy it. Who else? Respond to this thread. Make this one swell to the point that they take notice. It's up to us. I'm going to send a personal letter to Wizards with signatures of other people who would buy this "Encyclopedia Faerūnia" if it came out. If we can show them that there is a significantly huge group of people interested in this book...well, we won't be considered the "old guys" anymore. If I ran Wizards(here we go again) I would release an Encyclopedia Faerūnia with all that has been promised and more. It would have realmslore galore, leatherbound, bookmarks, maps a plenty, art done by people who understand FR and have actually read the material so they can expound upon it(a picture is supposed to be worth a thousand words. If the art does less than the text, what is it for?), short stories(new and old dispursed throughout), and best of all....not one stat throughout the entire thing. *gasps all around* That way it can be enjoyed by people who are non gamers as well. A cross market product? Yup. A book that would appeal to gamers and novel fans alike. Whether you agree with what I've said above or not, resond to this thread if the idea of an Encyclopedia Faerūnia appeals to you. Let's show them that there are beans to be had.
Wooly Rupert 03-04-04, 01:14 PM	I'd buy it. And though I applaud your efforts, I'm thinking that it's just going to be ignored. TPTB have ignored the fans for a while now...
jet_to_brazil 03-04-04, 02:08 PM	or what about a re-release of the computer program "interactive atlas"? i've wanted a copy forever and found it a few weeks ago in a store but it was $70. i deffinately remember it being about $30 cheaper back before i was into forgotten realms.
Silas the Mariner 03-04-04, 02:11 PM	I'd certainly purchase something of that nature... Being a student, I don't have a great deal of money, but I consider the "fluff" contained in the FRCS to be well worth the money I paid for it. If ever i'm bored, i'll pick up the FRCS, open it at a random page, and read away... Also, being someone that's never actually played D&D, I put equal if not greater value to "fluff" than to "crunchy bits" (I think that's the right term...) To conclude, i'd be 100x more likely to spend the little money I have on a book that was geared towards role-playing rather than roll-playing.
Mirtek 03-04-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Misyrr As far as I can tell it'll be absolutely impossible to convince these "bean-counters" that anything is better than what they've perceived to be the best way to make money Well, as far as I read from Sean K. Reynolds Essay (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/forgottenrumsstory.html) they did give it a try. The tried fluff against crunsh and fluff did lose. That was their test, and now they demand products according to it's result.
Monsoon28 03-04-04, 03:59 PM	In regards to the term "fluff" I have to agree, in fact when I first heard the two term I thought the Crunch was the Story, Settings, Background and the 'Fluff' was the stats for so-n-so and Feats. How about we just start calling it the "Filling" from now on then, eh? Just a humble suggestion.
Faraer 03-04-04, 04:04 PM	The Bean-Counters interpreted the lower sales of Lords of Rumness to its being less crunchy, out of any number of other ways the two books could be distinguished, such as it being aimed more squarely at DMs than Magic of Fae Rum. The Counters know now how well The Sliver Munches sold, but we don't, and 'more crunchy sells best!' remains a theory and a dogma, not a fact.
Mirtek 03-04-04, 04:22 PM	Originally posted by Faraer The Counters know now how well The Sliver Munches sold, but we don't, and 'more crunchy sells best!' remains a theory and a dogma, not a fact. But the Bean-Counters aren't idiots and don't want to just have their way, even if it's the inferior way. They want money, as much money as possible. If Silver Munches had sold well enough to prove that fluff makes more money than crunch (or just the same money than crunch) we would have seen more fluff in the supplements following the Silver Munches. Since we see more and more crunch and a decreasing amount of fluff, we can only conclude that Silver Munches didn't sell well enough. The Bean-Counters certainly wouldn't ignore a good result of the sales of Silver Munches and just pretend their opinion is the best while knowing that this wasn't true and thus they would lose money just because they don't want to admit they were wrong.
Cunning Linguist 03-04-04, 04:28 PM	stupid bean-counters, it did not sell since they put it in soft cover. Thats the only reason I have yet to pick that book up...
Nimzz 03-04-04, 06:39 PM	i would buy it...definatly... but i would also like to see things going back the 2nd edition way of things...without the bad guys are stupid mentalaty... i would also like to see the good guys loose alittle ground especially the chosen
Amoun 03-04-04, 07:02 PM	remember the bean counters dont want money they want BEANS BEANS hehe... Well even the bean counters cant argue that fluff does indeed make profit in beans, but alas according to their beanful studies the best way to achieve beans is to dance and throw crunch everywhere :( Seriously though, Give the bean counters a little faith, they will publish something fluffy and cuddly... sometime... in the future... when that happens... I will dance all night naked in the fluff howling and acting stupidly :p Hopefully there will never be a time when the bean counters force the elves to make only crunch. I mean some of us may complain but fluff is there and it still is very nice... If they stick to crunch/fluff ratio they have now they still can make beans and we still can have enough fluff to wet our appetites...
Reefy 03-04-04, 09:30 PM	I would definitely buy such a product as Druid Berrymore described. Whether we'll ever see something of that sort is a different matter, but I would certainly love to see it.
Lashan 03-04-04, 09:54 PM	Bah! Silver Marches had to be the "fluff" test. I have no interest in the Silver Marches and didn't buy the book accordingly. But perhaps that fits into the overall test, as well. Some people don't want all the fluff. I just wish it had been Races of Faerun. Now THERE is a good book.
Sarta 03-04-04, 10:28 PM	There is some truth to the marketing aspect of fluff. I have often heard my own players say that they don't want to buy a particular fluff book, because as players they don't want to read something that is for the dm's eyes only. Unfortunately, WotC, just like any other manufacturing company, has to form strategies as to which future releases will generate the most revenue. While it may be true that a large fluff book set at a rediculously high price and a small print run would be profitable, this book would still take resources (writers, artists, editors, etc.) away from another project. If marketing suggests that a book of pure fluff will sell 40 percent of what a book like the players handbook will sell, then this means that it has to have a dollar price of 250 percent of the players handbook cover just to break even... and that's before increasing the size and making it leather-bound. Would the same people willing to shell out 85 dollars for a large, leather-bound book of fluff on the realms still be willing to do the same for a book that is the same size and production value as the current releases? I'm not so sure.... and I'm willing to bet WotC isn't either. Sarta
Sarta 03-04-04, 10:40 PM	Just to address the initial example from Emperor's Choice. They are facing a completely different set of marketing variables as WotC. Arduin does not have a very large following and those that are followers are willing to buy anything whatsoever put out for it. Even by upping the price of this product, they very likely will not have to drop the size of their print run at all. As long as their fans think they are geting what they paid for they will be happy. Sarta
Ssussunriyh 03-04-04, 11:20 PM	I for one am sick and tired of all the crunch. I think there are more than enough spells, feats, races, templates, monsters, and prestige classes out there. Enough, already! All this crunch is choking me! I want more fluff! I want an Encyclopedia Faerunia! And I want it in a multi-volume set of 800-page leather-bound books, with poster-size maps that I can frame and hang on my wall! And I'll gladly pay the additional cost to get what I want! And if you insist on including crunch, make footnotes in the entries saying "refer to Appendix volume A, page 117" so the crunch won't interrupt the important stuff, and I can ignore it as I please.
gustav 03-05-04, 12:26 PM	Well, at the moment they are selling books which the players want to buy and the market is there because the players are buying the books, but at some time will even the greatest power crazy pc's have sufficiently feats and prestige classes to use in optimization. I hope they will then begin to write books for the game masters, because a campaign setting will die, if there is not books for the game masters to buy
druid berrymore 03-05-04, 12:45 PM	Originally posted by gustav Well, at the moment they are selling books which the players want to buy and the market is there because the players are buying the books, but at some time will even the greatest power crazy pc's have sufficiently feats and prestige classes to use in optimization. I hope they will then begin to write books for the game masters, because a campaign setting will die, if there is not books for the game masters to buy Yeah! When I buy a book now with the FR logo on it I get that initial buzz of "new material(foaming at the louth sound ala homer simpson), but then when I crack the thing open and read it I'm left with that empty Mcdonald's hamburger feeling. Lets face it....new spells, feats, prestige classes, etc are not really Realms material. Kinda, but not really. Even if they place some Realms name on it(harper scout)Woopdee dooo. They could just as easily publish that stuff under a different setting and it wouldn't change. That's not the kinda stuff that made the FR last for 2 decades.
Alac Luin 03-05-04, 07:42 PM	That story of the Elves is kinda funny. The Silver Marches book sold becouse it was the Silver Marches. Not becouse they made it crunchier. I was disapointed it wasent Fluffy. The "Lords of Darkness" didn't sell, becouse it was geared to only DM (Limiting an already limited market) and well, many DMs, like myself, make thier own Villains. I have no desire to use "iconic" charicters, even villians. The spider queen adventure didn't sell as well as they wanted becouse it was Drow based. About half the D&D players are feed up with Drow and don't want anything to do with them. The fact that it is still a large topic (on these boards) after two years or so shows the desire for FR adventures, more then what is periodicly published in Dungon. An epic adventure set in say the Western Heartlands dealing with Zents and Thayin Enclaves or something would be a better "test" to see if epic adventure in the realms would sell. To judge a books worth, there is more then the "Fluff" and "crunch" on if a book sells. Without the fluff to fill in the world, I may end up going back to a Homebrew world. Since I have to make the Fluff myself, why should I stay in the FR.
gustav 03-07-04, 09:16 AM	Well, WOTC have done something good for the realms 1) The new version 3 and 3,5 of dungeons and dragons is much bettter to use compared with first and second edition. It was a problem it was only rogues and rangers who could sneak in second edition, clerics of war gods could not use swords, because clerics are supposed to belive in love and peace, .... 2) The Forgotten Realms campaign setting they made is good, because it gives new players and game masters a chance to begin playing in the realms and a product giving a broad overview of every region of the realms was in much need 3) The races of Faerun accessory is a vast improvement in realmslore, because it is a collection of lore regarding the sphere of influence of cultures in modern and historical times. This kind of lore was scattered in at least 30 different accessories in the past and there were huge gaps in knowledge. 4) Many players now prefer playing in the realms, because it is the campaign setting which offers the largets degree of flexibility regarding player character creation and development. What we need now is for WOTC to begin making products for Game masters. They will sell less compared to books as Players guide to Faerun, because it is only the game master and a few players who will buy books written for game masters, but the campaign world need it in order to continue to develop. There is probably not agreement upon what is needed, but the following is what I need 1) Herblore, because it is good in campaigns with rangers, druids and elves 2) pictures of coins, because I want to use them as clues. A coin can be used as a clue to a certain geographical location and a certain time. They will usually have heraldic symbols on them and I frequently need knowledge of city symbols 3) Volo guides to important areas like Sembia, Moon Sea, .. The volo guides are my most used FR accessories and I have almost all FR accessories ever written 4) A treatise on trade, how does portals affect trade? I have lots of campaign ideas, because portals can be used for military invasion. (the local baron might not like the idea of the local merchant financing a portal), smuggling, they could initiate price wars and covert ops by competitors, religious fanatics might not like their society to be exposed to ideas from foreign cultures due to the presence of a portal and soo forth 5) An accessory describing historical kingdoms, with maps of the areas they covered. Maybe a historical atlas. I would love to have such an accessory The following is fluff I would like to have, but it is not an urgent need 1) An accessory describing the jungle lands (Chulth, Mhair, ...) 2) An accessory describing grass areas (Shar, ....) 3) updated info on Kara-Tur, Al-Quadim and Maztica. What happened during the last 20 campaign years?
WizO_BigSister 03-07-04, 01:03 PM	This is my own personal opinion. I love atmosphere, I love to feel immersed in an alternate reality. I really enjoy maps, descriptions and what gets called "fluff". I have been working on the FQ and looking at the new prestige classes, and to be honest I am feeling kind of swamped by them :eek: Give me more of the background, the life stories, the interesting places and the subcultures that shape the way characters develop. Give me less of the numbers, and more of the reasons why the numbers happen!
Faraer 03-07-04, 01:56 PM	Gustav, Well, WOTC have done something good for the realms 1) The new version 3 and 3,5 of dungeons and dragons is much bettter to use compared with first and second edition. It was a problem it was only rogues and rangers who could sneak in second edition, clerics of war gods could not use swords, because clerics are supposed to belive in love and peace, ....Not better to use in any objective sense. Ed Greenwood's campaign hasn't switched over, for instance. It's no trouble to just rule that a cleric can use a sword and add a small XP penalty if necessary (and FRA/F&A specialty priests did just that), whereas the 3E system is much more rigid.2) The Forgotten Realms campaign setting they made is good, because it gives new players and game masters a chance to begin playing in the realms and a product giving a broad overview of every region of the realms was in much needYes, the FRCS is an impressive consolidation of lore and its breadth has helped soothe newcomers daunted by the existing lore, though that breadth also defocused it on what makes the Realms the Realms.3) The races of Faerun accessory is a vast improvement in realmslore, because it is a collection of lore regarding the sphere of influence of cultures in modern and historical times. This kind of lore was scattered in at least 30 different accessories in the past and there were huge gaps in knowledge.Collecting the lore and adding new stuff is a worthwhile project, but I don't see it as a vast improvement when it's a mere survey of dwarf- and elflore for instance.4) Many players now prefer playing in the realms, because it is the campaign setting which offers the largets degree of flexibility regarding player character creation and development.Is this 'player character creation and development' as a euphemism for powergaming and acquiring crunchy bits? Those crunchy bits may recruit players to the Realms as you suggest, but they're also easy to use outside a Realms context. What we need now is for WOTC to begin making products for Game masters. They will sell less compared to books as Players guide to Faerun, because it is only the game master and a few players who will buy books written for game masters, but the campaign world need it in order to continue to develop. There is probably not agreement upon what is needed, but the following is what I needIt's a false dichotomy to say that game-mechanical stuff is for players and lore is for DMs. Lore is also for players, and a Player's Guide worthy of the name would be full of the lore that PCs and players should know, including stuff I know was cut from the FRCS. More generally, it may well be true that locally lower-selling products (I'm thinking adventures) can bolster the setting profitably in the longer term.1) Herblore, because it is good in campaigns with rangers, druids and elvesIt's on the tentative list for "Realmslore" now, and Ed recently revealed it didn't appear early because TSR was afraid of people trying it out for real (no such problems with poison, apparently).2) pictures of coins, because I want to use them as clues. A coin can be used as a clue to a certain geographical location and a certain time. They will usually have heraldic symbols on them and I frequently need knowledge of city symbolsAgain, nothing DM-only about this.3) Volo guides to important areas like Sembia, Moon Sea, .. The volo guides are my most used FR accessories and I have almost all FR accessories ever writtenCertainly.4) A treatise on trade, how does portals affect trade? I have lots of campaign ideas, because portals can be used for military invasion. (the local baron might not like the idea of the local merchant financing a portal), smuggling, they could initiate price wars and covert ops by competitors, religious fanatics might not like their society to be exposed to ideas from foreign cultures due to the presence of a portal and soo forthI don't see how it's possible to reconcile the expensive but routine portals of the FRCS with the way trade's been established to work, with gates too mysterious, unreliable, dangerous, and politically risky to use for such purposes. Most likely place for the long overdue merchant lore is a Sembia book.5) An accessory describing historical kingdoms, with maps of the areas they covered. Maybe a historical atlas. I would love to have such an accessorySomething like this is in the works, though we'll see how much as a mere excuse for more rules (ą la Magic: The Gathering expansions). The following is fluff I would like to have, but it is not an urgent need 1) An accessory describing the jungle lands (Chulth, Mhair, ...) 2) An accessory describing grass areas (Shar, ....)In what way is such description 'fluff'? Would a highly descriptive novel set there be fluff? If Ed wrote it, would you go up to him and say how much you liked his latest fluff?3) updated info on Kara-Tur, Al-Quadim and Maztica. What happened during the last 20 campaign years?Why would you want to expand the advancing-timeline thing to these regions? Especially since such information would just be made up for the book rather than stemming from any real creative urge? Wouldn't it be better left to the DM?
Wooly Rupert 03-07-04, 07:28 PM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister Give me less of the numbers, and more of the reasons why the numbers happen! Thank you! That's my biggest thing! Anyone can make numbers, I want the concept! :D
Lashan 03-07-04, 08:37 PM	Faraer, I would say that Races of Faerun is worth it just for the info on the human cultures. A lot of that material was completely new. I just wish they had more data.
greatestDM 03-07-04, 09:11 PM	Originally posted by Misyrr I'd like the material to be something along the lines of Encyclopedia Faerūnia by Ed Greenwood. Is this supposed to be an example book, or is there really a book like this that is out? I don't want to sound stupid or anything, but I'd buy it if it were. And by the way, you are completly correct, more history, heritage, etc... Rock on.
Ssussunriyh 03-08-04, 01:52 AM	The Encyclopedia Faerunia only exists in terms of wishful thinking. Some of us would like the wish to come true. Now, where did I put that magic lamp...?
Arduin 03-08-04, 01:55 AM	Getting my own lands would be sweet...