Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Feyd Rautha 11-10-03, 12:26 PM	Hello all, Next Sunday I will be starting a campaign in the wonderful land of Thay. Yes the players will be evil, and they will be starting at 6th level. Right now it looks like I'll have a blackguard initiate (6th means at best he can take it at 7th), an assassin, a Red Wizard, and ??? (haven't spoken with the fourth guy). My idea is for them to be working for one of the zulkirs on their way up the organizational ladder. Now here's the problem. I know very little about Thay. I have the FRCS 3.0, 2.0, and 1.0. I'm still processing some of that information, but since I've never really dealt with Thay in previous versions (I always set them up in the Dalelands or Silver Marches), it's a bit of a crash course. Could any Thay experts get back to me with a primer, issues I should consider, notable figures, your own campaign specifics on the very cardboard cutouts of the cities that the FRCS gives you, etc. etc. etc. I wish to thank everyone in advance who contributes to my crash course here. ;) Feyd
Kuje31 11-10-03, 12:54 PM	Originally posted by Feyd Rautha Hello all, Next Sunday I will be starting a campaign in the wonderful land of Thay. Yes the players will be evil, and they will be starting at 6th level. Right now it looks like I'll have a blackguard initiate (6th means at best he can take it at 7th), an assassin, a Red Wizard, and ??? (haven't spoken with the fourth guy). My idea is for them to be working for one of the zulkirs on their way up the organizational ladder. Now here's the problem. I know very little about Thay. I have the FRCS 3.0, 2.0, and 1.0. I'm still processing some of that information, but since I've never really dealt with Thay in previous versions (I always set them up in the Dalelands or Silver Marches), it's a bit of a crash course. Could any Thay experts get back to me with a primer, issues I should consider, notable figures, your own campaign specifics on the very cardboard cutouts of the cities that the FRCS gives you, etc. etc. etc. I wish to thank everyone in advance who contributes to my crash course here. ;) Feyd Maybe you might want to pick up the Unapproachable East sourcebook........
kgiggles 11-10-03, 01:05 PM	There`s an older product from 2nd edition called "Spellbound", that you might want to try and find. It`s a little outdated but gives you some insight into the Red Wizards and Thay, and some info on their neighbors. The Unapproacable East is also pretty good. Good Luck, Keith
Herr Doktor 11-10-03, 01:25 PM	You have the FRCS! Check out pages 205 - 209 (Thay info, including one of the few maps in the book and Szass Tam all stated out for ya) the rest of that area in the book details the surrounding lands of the Unapproachable East. Check out page 278 for info on the Zulkir's and Red Wizards in general. Also, the Unapproachable East supplement (as stated in the above posts) would be invaluable to you, as long as you plan on this being a long running campaign. Lords of Darkness has a nice chunk of info on the Thayan mages also. Older material of use would be Spellbound (convert some adventures and set the PCs up as the villains), Dreams of the Red Wizards, and probably the Villain Lorebooks. If you have any specific questions... (don't want to breach and copyright laws by providing stats and figures or anything) ask 'em and they may be answered.
Feyd Rautha 11-10-03, 01:35 PM	Hmm...always thought Unapproachable East was about the lands further East of Thay. I might pick that up. Here are a few questions though... Does it include information on each of the zulkirs and their region of the nation? Does it say why the Red Wizards don't own Thesk yet? Does it detail many of the cities in the country? Does it include a "plots and rumors" section for each of the states of the Thayan Confederacy? Also, everyone please feel free to tell me your stories about Thay so I can get a feel for how others approach the "unapproachable East" Thanks again and please post more!!! Feyd
Herr Doktor 11-10-03, 01:43 PM	The section on Thay includes the following: Full page map of Thay with known cities, villages, geography, roads and known dungeons detailed. Information on major geographical features. Information on the People of Thay (race and cultures, life and society, where the Red Wizards fit in, economy, law and order, defense and warcraft, religion, and where Adventurers fit in). A section on Politics and Power (History of thay, government, enemies). Cities and Sites (details Amruthar, Bezantur, Eltabbar (capital of Thay), Escalant, Nethentir, and Nethjet). Each of these cities is fully detailed (exact number of 1st level commoners, et cetera and notes on all important NPCs). There is a section at the end of the Thay portion called Heroes and Monsters that talks about typical adventurers from Thay.
Cunning Linguist 11-10-03, 01:58 PM	I always loved Thay, here is a page you might wante to take a look at. Thay (http://prespos.crosswinds.net/thay.htm)
Nainoa 11-10-03, 03:56 PM	I'm currently writing up an in depth role playing campaign right now set in Thay... I finally managed to find a local copy of the Unapproachable East... With the info from the FRCS, the Lords of Darkness and the UE, I've pretty much got everything I need. One of the things I'm finding I really like about the region is that you can throw in just about any kind of intrigue you want. I'll give you a super-quick over view of what I have going on... Keep in mind this campaign is designed to last a year, playing an average of 5 hours a week, with more play in winter, and less in summer. First off... The PC's are starting out as Zeroth level pud-stains... And they go through an entire session of recruitment in the year 1359, before they even join the academy run by Mythrella (The Zulkir of Illusion) *Note they are all interested in becoming Red Wizards. From there I've literally written up lectures they will be given, on spell casting, and the final test afterward... To learn spell Craft they're translating "Thorass" from the FRCS, into Portugese, with certain letters, and sylables having somatic "Hand Motions" that correspond to English Sign Language. At the end of the first session they win tickets in a gambling tournament to the Thayan Style Mage Fair being held in Eltabbar. (I took the Mage Fair from the Magic of Faerun, and gave Thay a Yearly even that was similar. There they see Fireball throwing contests, and meet Key figures. Most important are Anotar (Their future teacher Illusionist) and Azthalar Maiquis, their future master they will serve, who is a Necromancer... Azthalar uses the Shadow Weave, and attempts to persuade them over the course of their first few years, to tap into the Shadow Weave. He does this by various indirect means such as Dream spells etc... Eventually they fall into a plot with Maiquis, during the "Tuigan Conflict" see FRCS history... Maiquis, get's his vendetta hat on, and goes after them... They spend a couple of sessions ducking Maiquis, until they come under the protection of one of Szass Tam's right hand men... Who offers to get them out of the country, if they will be loyal to his master... From there they are sent to Tam's enclave in Proskur (Or is it Procamper??) That's all the outlining I have so far... Right now I've only scripted up from the begining to the Fireball throwing contest that they watch... That's my two coppers Nainoa
Feyd Rautha 11-11-03, 01:22 PM	I want to thank you all very much for your help and please keep the stories and ideas coming... Here's a HUGE question... What kind of "historical" flair does Thay have? I know Mulhurond is Egyptian and I have heard tell that Thay would be Byzantine. What the heck is Byzantine though? Also, I had an idea about making it Romanian and having a whole Transylvania-esque feel...thoughts? Thanks especially to Cunning Linguist for the Thay website link. Invaluable resource. Feyd
The Heretic 11-11-03, 11:04 PM	The Historical flair of Thay is very similar to that of Mulhorand (Egyptian) since Thay was once a part of the Mulhorandi Empire. The way that I ran it was: Picture Egypt taken over by Evil Wizards lead by a Lich. The Unapproachable East has TONS of invaluable information as does Lords of Darkness.
Herr Doktor 11-11-03, 11:51 PM	Nainoa, That sounds like a truely awesome campaign! I wish I had player's more interested in indepth role-playing (like myself), but it's all about a good balance of plot and violence with my players. The Thorass to Portugese and Sign Language seems a bit complicated, but if you can pull it off it'd be something that sticks in the players' minds for a good long time. Is the party evil aligned? I'd imagine so, seeing as they've got ambitions toward become a Red Wizard.
Nainoa 11-12-03, 10:02 AM	Feyd: Are you sure about BBGG... I'd think a good anything would have a hard time being a prominent antagonist in a Thayan campaign... Simply because when you get to that moment when you introduce them to the Antagonist... And they put together who's behind their woes, and who they've got to go after... I just see a player going "Well let's tell the Zulkirs, and they'll mop up the situation!" Where as if you make another evil antagonist... He's going to have evil allies, and there's going to be a web of intrigue for the players to pick their way through. And one of the things the players are going to count on is that good is predictable... They have rules, and codes etc... Evil is tricky, deceptive, and will do anything to win. Though... To take a gander at the other side of the coin... I could see some interesting possibilities, in something like... Good guy, maybe a Harper with some big nards, decides to infiltrate Thay, and invoke a Slave revolt, in an attempt to free the people of Thay etc... Herr Doktor: It wasn't easy getting to this set up for an in-depth role-playing campaign... My group grew in number, and split into two distinct groups... 3 of them who just want me to flip to any page in the MM, and throw a monster at them... They don't care if it's a Drow Elf in a cloud city, or a Storm Giant in the Underdark... They just want to kill something with dice, and paper... These 3 are the people who can always make it to every session. The other three, enjoy the role playing aspect of things, and love the little parts I put in, where they can have a cafe conversation, or a murder investigation etc... So I explained to everyone that I was going to need a little break from a six man group of players... And that I was making a Role Playing Campign, and a "Combat intensive" campaign. I explained the depth of the Thay role-playing campaign... And the Hack n' slashers agreed it would give them blood clots in their brains. So really I'm still just writing one campaign... The other one is just the monster manual! But I can enjoy conversation, and intrigue now, without someone trying to solve a puzzle with a sword. And the Thorass-Portugese-Sign Language thing... Is just one of their lessons in the academy... I don't expect that every spell they cast would go that way. Had a buddy playtest it to... It only took him 20+ minutes. Well I would normall say... "That's my two coppers" But considering how long that was... That's my Five Coppers :angel: Nainoa
Cunning Linguist 11-12-03, 10:08 AM	I know Mulhurond is Egyptian and I have heard tell that Thay would be Byzantine. What the heck is Byzantine though? Well, what is Egyptian? Are you thinking about Architecture and art? A quick google search should give you a idea of what it looks like.
Feyd Rautha 11-12-03, 10:35 AM	No I'm mainly talking about the culture. Actually, almost any Mediterranean military culture would be a good fit for Thay the more I read about it. The key issues are slaves, a noble class, and a ruling council. Egypt, Byzantium, and Sparta might not be the best examples since there are no kings, but I am suddenly leaning towards Rome (pre-Ceasars). While it is not a Republic I can see much of the intrigue similar to the Roman Senate among the council of Zulkirs and Aulkirs. Speaking of Aulkirs, do they still exist? I know that in 2nd edition when all the different schools blew up the map (thanks to the munchkin friendly player's option books) they added aulkirs into the mix. Now that the core eight are the only schools supported how would this work? Nainoa: While I do intend for them to face off against evil foes (Evil turns upon itself after all), they will not be opposed constantly by a specific evil foe (zulkirs and their forces excluded b/c they are WAY out of the players league and therefore will never come into direct conflict). Part of what a BBEG or BBGG represents to me is a long term enemy that seems to show up here and there. That's what I meant by that. As for BBGGs infiltrating Thay, I did plan on having them do something with a slave revolt and its repercussions, but eventually they will be sent out on assignment as an enclave or as emissaries to an enclave perhaps. One of the PC's has unfinished business in Raven's Bluff for example so there's a plot hook as well. Oh, and I just bough Unapproachable East off of eBay for $15 and I should have it this week or next so we'll see what that has for me. Thanks again, Feyd
Nainoa 11-12-03, 11:26 AM	Feyd, Figured I'd check your thoughts on this question... Recently I've been outlining the higher level plot possibilities of my own Thay Campaign, and my feelings on using Szass Tam... I mean... To Tam or Not to Tam... That is the question? One of the plot options I've played with is: The PC's start out working under a different Zulkir... Low in the ranks etc... But eventually come to a cross roads where they are most likely to break away from their original Zulkir... They come under the protection of Tam... Who later uses them to further his own designs. Which is to remove Aznar Thrul (Zulkir of Evocation), a major opponent... And unseat enough of the other Zulkir's... So that Tam arranges it, so the PC's take those seats, as his "Quasi" puppets... Tam then creates an emergency situation... And it is proposed that he be made "Emperor of Thay" Thus uniting Thay under a single leader, with the Zulkir's now being a "Coucil, serving as Second in command" Granted this is all stuff for the high levels of the campaign... And with the campaign starting out right after the ToT... It's something that would probably come to pass in 1380 etc... But I guess the question I'm wrestling with is... "Should I use this Iconic character, which usually isn't a good idea IMO... But then again... When am I ever going to have such a good oportunity to use Szass Tam? I figured I'd see what you've thought about Tam in your own campaign ideas. Also... I've read nothing 3e about Aulkirs... But I never got into 2e FR splat books either. Nainoa
Wooly Rupert 11-12-03, 11:54 AM	Whoops, replied to the wrong thread... Now it won't let me delete it...
Feyd Rautha 11-12-03, 12:06 PM	Well, I don't have the same compunction about using iconics, but I do limit their "face time" as it were. As for Aznur I'm not sure. Tam already has dirt on him (as per the FRCS) that keeps him in line. A much more juicy opponent would be the Zulkir of Conjuration (don't have name in front of me) who is a bit of a hothead and could lead to a downturn in magical item trade profits if he carries out an invasion he has planned on Algarond. If the characters are high enough level to replace a zulkir they must defeat the zulkir in personal combat. Always something to consider especially when using iconics. Remember...he has to be a conjuration specialist AND loyal to Szass in order to qualify. You will have to figure this one out yourself, but I say aim for the Conjuration zulkir since he is the most immediate threat to Tam's plans. Once he is deposed (through the background work of the PC's maybe) Tam will bring up a conjuration loyalist that he had hidden in the conjuration wizard's ranks. He would then have majority control of the council through his alliances. Aznur would probably need to go eventually, but only after five of the eight zulkirs aligned against him. The flaw with your plan as I see it is the future of it all. After Tam has control, things get very complicated. Thay is slowly winning the economic war of Eastern Faerun. There is no opposition to their rising power other than from within which is more an issue of complacency. There will always be leaders (nobles, zulkirs, aulkirs) that will behave rashly and want to act. These people can't see that Thay is already a superpower just from it's economic ability. I think this is a problem that isn't really specific to the zulkirs that oppose Tam, but instead a problem with a percentage of the entire population... Also, replacing a zulkir with a party member is a bit unbalancing to the rest of the group. Not only will he be unable to adventure due to other responsibilities, he will also have immense resources at his command. I'd say stay away from it. I'm sorry if I'm a bit incoherent I'm a bit out of sorts today, but let me sum up... Killing a zulkir to replace him with one loyal to Tam: The specialist evoker would have to have enough power to challenge Thrul (alone) and defeat him. How does Tam assure loyalty with a wizard of this much power? Killing a zulkir and replacing him with a party member: Not a good idea since it would unbalance the campaign. Emperor Tam: There will always be disagreement and how does he assuage the dissident voices? You might look to the story of Julius Caesar, but Tam has very little in common with him. Also, if Tam has a major part in the downfall of another zulkir how will the other zulkirs react immediately? Wouldn't they see the direct interference (minor interference is not uncommon, but zulkir progression seems to be a "house" issue as it were from what I've read) as Tam's power mongering and threat to them all? Tam is the most powerful of the zulkirs, but he has no hope against any two of them together much less all of them if they decide that he has broken Thayan law. There are a lot of issues surrounding this idea and before you proceed I urge you to consider all of them. Feyd
Nainoa 11-12-03, 01:43 PM	I've just tried to stay away from Iconic's in the past... I guess the few times I have used, I've just had bad experiences from the PC's at that time. As for the campaign balance issue... The whole "Tam as Emperor" thing would be a looooong time off yet... We haven't even played the first session... And that would be the end of the "Adventuring" part of the campaign... Where the character(s) would essentially become beauacrats... After having spent from 1369 to 1380 living as adventurers/Red Wizard agents. And it's only one possibility... Just like another possibility would be them starting/owning an Enclave in Calimport, or Waterdeep etc... And of course they wouldn't be acting openly in Tam's name etc... But I was under the impression, that a Zulkir could be unseated politically... And that the other Zulkirs then get together and figure out who the new Zulkir should be to replace the old. I can't remember what Book I read that in... If it was LoD or UE... But I remember a passage that talked about how Tam had entrenched himself so deep over the centuries that no one could unseat him short of a very permanent Death. I don't know that I like the idea of "The only way to become a Zulkir is to kill him in spell duel combat." etc... It feels a little to much like... Klingon's with Wands, to me. Also... What does your 2e source say about Aulkir's... I haven't heard the term, and am curious... Thanks for the feedback! Nainoa