Stereotypes in gaming what would you change? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Stereotypes in gaming what would you change? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wellin_Adipocere
01-05-07, 11:21 PM I might catch some flack for saying this but sometimes i get tired of reading about or role-playing with characters who react the same way all the time. ie. a dwarf likes to drink, an elf is very graceful, orcs are pushover turntails, etc.

So I pose the questions:
What stereotypes in the realms do you think is out-dated and should be changed?

Or do you feel that we should respect the races and their attributes according to their creators?

Do you feel that the stereotypes allow for more unique characters? (think Drizzt)
Azar_of_Faerun
01-05-07, 11:30 PM Stereotypes are nice. Reason being?

1. Putting your own twist on a stereotype is still a very fun thing to do.

2. It makes it all the more satisfying when something "out of the ordinary" appears and you encounter it.

3. There are times when something tries too hard to stand out, be different...and ends up being silly.
Faraer
01-06-07, 08:05 PM To stereotype is to take a simplified (sometimes inaccurate) idea about something and apply it as if that idea was the thing itself. The solution is not teetotal dwarves and clumsy elves -- that thinking is part of the very phenomenon of stereotyping -- but to really put your imagination into making characters seem real, whether or not they have characteristics that happen to match stereotypes.
GothicDan
01-07-07, 12:11 AM Archetype > Stereotype.
MarkusTay63
01-07-07, 09:57 PM What Azar said. :D

One of my favorite moments DMing was when I had a bunch of players running down the Wild Coast to get away from some monsters. The party had just finished a super-tough encounter and were pretty beat-on, so they chose the better part of valor when they IMMEDIATELY ran into a second group of beasties (they thought this was random, but I had it all planned out). Just as the monsters were about to catch them, a group of about twenty knights in full plate with streamers on their lances and the whole 'chivalry' shebang going on ride past them and charge into the monsters. After several passes with their lances, the noble knights dispatched the critters and rode up to the characters. When the leader lifted his visor and revealed an ORC's face, they nearly died. He said "Welcome to the Pomarj, please follow me".

Then they nearly died again when they were brought into a large well-built city with SEVERAL monster types carrying out their day-to-day business.

I love knocking down stereotypes. ;) :cool:
Derren S.
01-08-07, 01:01 AM The biggest and imo worst stereotype are elves and dwarves. That elves are always dexterous, beautyful, love trees and are so super magical that no one can ever match their spellcasting and knowledge, that dwarves always drink, hate magic, have beards and have nothing else to do than to tunnel and to smith and that those two races don't like each other.
Blackheart
01-08-07, 02:40 AM Derren S, and Wellin?

I recommend you two check out some old Dark Sun novels or products. It's one of my favorite settings and, if anything, makes me appreciate more the archetypes set forth in the Realms and other, more "generic" fantasy. The stereotypes just aren't really there in Dark Sun's Athas, and where they do appear, they're very twisted.

It's refreshing....like mint, except brutal and bloody. So, nothing like mint in that sense at all. Unless you like bloody mint, of course.
BrianCritchley
01-08-07, 04:21 AM let's try changing this thread's direction a bit so that we don't get another elf/dwarf love/hate arguement going on, those debates are useless and won't change any minds.

one sterotype I'd like to see gotten rid of in my games is the "broken female"

in EVERY game I play someone (not always the same someone just to be clear there) just has to play a female character with crippling emotional issues. and they tend to drag the RP down into sulky mellowdrama.
that get's tiresome after awhile, especially cause I can't help feeling that it's unrealistic and maybe a bit chauvinistic as some of the strongest people I know have been women.
Azar_of_Faerun
01-08-07, 08:34 AM Oh yeah? What about humans - always labeled as so inventive, adaptive and spontaneous in their habits. It sickens me :mad:
Zanan
01-08-07, 09:12 AM Dwarven weapon-/armor-/blacksmiths anyone?
GothicDan
01-08-07, 01:34 PM The biggest and imo worst stereotype are elves and dwarves. That elves are always dexterous, beautyful, love trees and are so super magical that no one can ever match their spellcasting and knowledge, that dwarves always drink, hate magic, have beards and have nothing else to do than to tunnel and to smith and that those two races don't like each other.

Why are creatures with clear-cut cultural, physiological, and magical boundaries 'bad'?

That's the sort of thing I love in my fantasy games. I'm tired of the "you can do/be whatever you want." Sure, in a world without magic limitations or physics, you can be.
Derren S.
01-08-07, 01:36 PM Why are creatures with clear-cut cultural, physiological, and magical boundaries 'bad'?

Its not really clear cut. Whatever someone does (no matter what) a elf can do it better except when it has to do with smithing, then the elf and the dwarf are better.
That the D&D elves&dwarves are carbon copy of the HDR races is another thing which makes them steretypes.

At least Halflings were detolkienized
GothicDan
01-08-07, 01:43 PM Sun Elves are the ultimate masters of Arcane Magic among the Elves. The Moon Elves blend song and sword. They are not particularly good at rogue-ish tactics compared to, say, Halflings or Kobolds or Gnomes. Gnomes are better at Illusion than the Elves. Orcs, generally, make better barbarians... And the fact that the empires of Netheril and Imaskar have arisen (the former of which is said to have specifically eclipsed Cormanthyr at its height) proves that your conceptions are wrong.

Are you looking at the books, or how some people seem to perceive the races?

Stereotypes are conceptions that are meant to apply to ALL members of one race. The fact that we have Lawful and/or Evil Sun Elf Liches (as opposed to your typical Chaotic Good Sylvan Elf Ranger or Fighter/Mage) shows that such stereotypes do not exist.
Derren S.
01-08-07, 01:57 PM Ok, then find me a beardless dwarf and a ugly elf.

And imo something that is true for 99% of a race is imo also a steretoype and the 1% a anti-hero/lone wolf novel character who is special by not following that stereotype.

When a character is special and unique because he is a little bit different then the rest of the race then imo this race is a stereotype. (For example, when you read in a book about a dwarf who has no beard would you be astonished and think that this dwarf is special or has a special role in the novel? If yes then dwarves having beards is a stereotype)
Derren S.
01-08-07, 01:58 PM double post
GothicDan
01-08-07, 02:30 PM Ok, then find me a beardless dwarf and a ugly elf.

So you're talking about purely physical characteristics? Find me a four-armed person.

And imo something that is true for 99% of a race is imo also a steretoype and the 1% a anti-hero/lone wolf novel character who is special by not following that stereotype.

Too bad your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to definitions.

When a character is special and unique because he is a little bit different then the rest of the race then imo this race is a stereotype. (For example, when you read in a book about a dwarf who has no beard would you be astonished and think that this dwarf is special or has a special role in the novel? If yes then dwarves having beards is a stereotype)

And that's the way it should be. That's what makes a race's culture and being CLEARLY DEFINED. Dwarves are NOT humans. Why do you even play D&D if you seem to hate everything about it, from the way Dragons are depicted, to Dwarves to Elves?

Hating something is cool. Playing something while hating it is your own fault.
Derren S.
01-08-07, 02:40 PM Main Entry: 2stereotype
Function: noun
Etymology: French stéréotype, from stéré- stere- + type
1 : a plate cast from a printing surface
2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

Oh look, a stereotype does not have to be true to 100% of the individums. If it would it would be no stereotype. So what I said above was 100% correct. The typical stereotype of a dwarf is a bearded, drinking, magic hating smith or miner who dislikes elves and the stereotypical elf is a beautyful, dexterous, knowledgable archer and/or magican who is one with nature and always better in everything he does then humans and he dislikes dwarves.
GothicDan
01-08-07, 03:11 PM A "fixed" pattern implies that it is immutable - the same EVERY time.
GothicDan
01-08-07, 03:12 PM stereotypical elf is a beautyful, dexterous, knowledgable archer and/or magican who is one with nature and always better in everything he does then humans and he dislikes dwarves.

Yes. Many Elves of Faerun are like that. Not all.

So therefore it's not a stereotype.
Wellin_Adipocere
01-08-07, 04:54 PM Sorry guys/girls. I didn't mean to start this thread to get into a definitions match and i should've put more initial thought into it. That being said how about we turn it into a how have you seen players or DM's go against the norm?
GothicDan
01-08-07, 04:59 PM Apologies. Derren and I tend to clash heads a lot.

As to going against the norm? Well, in Dragonlance, I played an evil Undead Master Necromancer Silvanesti Elf. He used culturally-appropriate (but twisted) rationale to explain his decisions and choice of magic in life, and he was ultimately devoted to the protection and preservation of Silvanesti (much like Kimil Nimesin and the Eldreth Veluuthra is).

As a DM, the first major world I made didn't have any dragons in it, at all. I get incredibly bored by them.

For the most part, I tend to play fairly 'normal' characters. Elven Wizards, Elven Bladesingers, an Elven Thief/Enchanter... A Gnomish Psionicist, a Fire Genasi Fire Mage, a True Necromancer Human whose temple was integrated with the city in which he lived..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wellin_Adipocere 01-05-07, 11:21 PM	I might catch some flack for saying this but sometimes i get tired of reading about or role-playing with characters who react the same way all the time. ie. a dwarf likes to drink, an elf is very graceful, orcs are pushover turntails, etc. So I pose the questions: What stereotypes in the realms do you think is out-dated and should be changed? Or do you feel that we should respect the races and their attributes according to their creators? Do you feel that the stereotypes allow for more unique characters? (think Drizzt)
Azar_of_Faerun 01-05-07, 11:30 PM	Stereotypes are nice. Reason being? 1. Putting your own twist on a stereotype is still a very fun thing to do. 2. It makes it all the more satisfying when something "out of the ordinary" appears and you encounter it. 3. There are times when something tries too hard to stand out, be different...and ends up being silly.
Faraer 01-06-07, 08:05 PM	To stereotype is to take a simplified (sometimes inaccurate) idea about something and apply it as if that idea was the thing itself. The solution is not teetotal dwarves and clumsy elves -- that thinking is part of the very phenomenon of stereotyping -- but to really put your imagination into making characters seem real, whether or not they have characteristics that happen to match stereotypes.
GothicDan 01-07-07, 12:11 AM	Archetype > Stereotype.
MarkusTay63 01-07-07, 09:57 PM	What Azar said. :D One of my favorite moments DMing was when I had a bunch of players running down the Wild Coast to get away from some monsters. The party had just finished a super-tough encounter and were pretty beat-on, so they chose the better part of valor when they IMMEDIATELY ran into a second group of beasties (they thought this was random, but I had it all planned out). Just as the monsters were about to catch them, a group of about twenty knights in full plate with streamers on their lances and the whole 'chivalry' shebang going on ride past them and charge into the monsters. After several passes with their lances, the noble knights dispatched the critters and rode up to the characters. When the leader lifted his visor and revealed an ORC's face, they nearly died. He said "Welcome to the Pomarj, please follow me". Then they nearly died again when they were brought into a large well-built city with SEVERAL monster types carrying out their day-to-day business. I love knocking down stereotypes. ;) :cool:
Derren S. 01-08-07, 01:01 AM	The biggest and imo worst stereotype are elves and dwarves. That elves are always dexterous, beautyful, love trees and are so super magical that no one can ever match their spellcasting and knowledge, that dwarves always drink, hate magic, have beards and have nothing else to do than to tunnel and to smith and that those two races don't like each other.
Blackheart 01-08-07, 02:40 AM	Derren S, and Wellin? I recommend you two check out some old Dark Sun novels or products. It's one of my favorite settings and, if anything, makes me appreciate more the archetypes set forth in the Realms and other, more "generic" fantasy. The stereotypes just aren't really there in Dark Sun's Athas, and where they do appear, they're very twisted. It's refreshing....like mint, except brutal and bloody. So, nothing like mint in that sense at all. Unless you like bloody mint, of course.
BrianCritchley 01-08-07, 04:21 AM	let's try changing this thread's direction a bit so that we don't get another elf/dwarf love/hate arguement going on, those debates are useless and won't change any minds. one sterotype I'd like to see gotten rid of in my games is the "broken female" in EVERY game I play someone (not always the same someone just to be clear there) just has to play a female character with crippling emotional issues. and they tend to drag the RP down into sulky mellowdrama. that get's tiresome after awhile, especially cause I can't help feeling that it's unrealistic and maybe a bit chauvinistic as some of the strongest people I know have been women.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-08-07, 08:34 AM	Oh yeah? What about humans - always labeled as so inventive, adaptive and spontaneous in their habits. It sickens me :mad:
Zanan 01-08-07, 09:12 AM	Dwarven weapon-/armor-/blacksmiths anyone?
GothicDan 01-08-07, 01:34 PM	The biggest and imo worst stereotype are elves and dwarves. That elves are always dexterous, beautyful, love trees and are so super magical that no one can ever match their spellcasting and knowledge, that dwarves always drink, hate magic, have beards and have nothing else to do than to tunnel and to smith and that those two races don't like each other. Why are creatures with clear-cut cultural, physiological, and magical boundaries 'bad'? That's the sort of thing I love in my fantasy games. I'm tired of the "you can do/be whatever you want." Sure, in a world without magic limitations or physics, you can be.
Derren S. 01-08-07, 01:36 PM	Why are creatures with clear-cut cultural, physiological, and magical boundaries 'bad'? Its not really clear cut. Whatever someone does (no matter what) a elf can do it better except when it has to do with smithing, then the elf and the dwarf are better. That the D&D elves&dwarves are carbon copy of the HDR races is another thing which makes them steretypes. At least Halflings were detolkienized
GothicDan 01-08-07, 01:43 PM	Sun Elves are the ultimate masters of Arcane Magic among the Elves. The Moon Elves blend song and sword. They are not particularly good at rogue-ish tactics compared to, say, Halflings or Kobolds or Gnomes. Gnomes are better at Illusion than the Elves. Orcs, generally, make better barbarians... And the fact that the empires of Netheril and Imaskar have arisen (the former of which is said to have specifically eclipsed Cormanthyr at its height) proves that your conceptions are wrong. Are you looking at the books, or how some people seem to perceive the races? Stereotypes are conceptions that are meant to apply to ALL members of one race. The fact that we have Lawful and/or Evil Sun Elf Liches (as opposed to your typical Chaotic Good Sylvan Elf Ranger or Fighter/Mage) shows that such stereotypes do not exist.
Derren S. 01-08-07, 01:57 PM	Ok, then find me a beardless dwarf and a ugly elf. And imo something that is true for 99% of a race is imo also a steretoype and the 1% a anti-hero/lone wolf novel character who is special by not following that stereotype. When a character is special and unique because he is a little bit different then the rest of the race then imo this race is a stereotype. (For example, when you read in a book about a dwarf who has no beard would you be astonished and think that this dwarf is special or has a special role in the novel? If yes then dwarves having beards is a stereotype)
Derren S. 01-08-07, 01:58 PM	double post
GothicDan 01-08-07, 02:30 PM	Ok, then find me a beardless dwarf and a ugly elf. So you're talking about purely physical characteristics? Find me a four-armed person. And imo something that is true for 99% of a race is imo also a steretoype and the 1% a anti-hero/lone wolf novel character who is special by not following that stereotype. Too bad your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to definitions. When a character is special and unique because he is a little bit different then the rest of the race then imo this race is a stereotype. (For example, when you read in a book about a dwarf who has no beard would you be astonished and think that this dwarf is special or has a special role in the novel? If yes then dwarves having beards is a stereotype) And that's the way it should be. That's what makes a race's culture and being CLEARLY DEFINED. Dwarves are NOT humans. Why do you even play D&D if you seem to hate everything about it, from the way Dragons are depicted, to Dwarves to Elves? Hating something is cool. Playing something while hating it is your own fault.
Derren S. 01-08-07, 02:40 PM	Main Entry: 2stereotype Function: noun Etymology: French stéréotype, from stéré- stere- + type 1 : a plate cast from a printing surface 2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment Oh look, a stereotype does not have to be true to 100% of the individums. If it would it would be no stereotype. So what I said above was 100% correct. The typical stereotype of a dwarf is a bearded, drinking, magic hating smith or miner who dislikes elves and the stereotypical elf is a beautyful, dexterous, knowledgable archer and/or magican who is one with nature and always better in everything he does then humans and he dislikes dwarves.
GothicDan 01-08-07, 03:11 PM	A "fixed" pattern implies that it is immutable - the same EVERY time.
GothicDan 01-08-07, 03:12 PM	stereotypical elf is a beautyful, dexterous, knowledgable archer and/or magican who is one with nature and always better in everything he does then humans and he dislikes dwarves. Yes. Many Elves of Faerun are like that. Not all. So therefore it's not a stereotype.
Wellin_Adipocere 01-08-07, 04:54 PM	Sorry guys/girls. I didn't mean to start this thread to get into a definitions match and i should've put more initial thought into it. That being said how about we turn it into a how have you seen players or DM's go against the norm?
GothicDan 01-08-07, 04:59 PM	Apologies. Derren and I tend to clash heads a lot. As to going against the norm? Well, in Dragonlance, I played an evil Undead Master Necromancer Silvanesti Elf. He used culturally-appropriate (but twisted) rationale to explain his decisions and choice of magic in life, and he was ultimately devoted to the protection and preservation of Silvanesti (much like Kimil Nimesin and the Eldreth Veluuthra is). As a DM, the first major world I made didn't have any dragons in it, at all. I get incredibly bored by them. For the most part, I tend to play fairly 'normal' characters. Elven Wizards, Elven Bladesingers, an Elven Thief/Enchanter... A Gnomish Psionicist, a Fire Genasi Fire Mage, a True Necromancer Human whose temple was integrated with the city in which he lived..