Strength score [Archive] - Wizards Community

Strength score [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
offtheboat
09-11-05, 12:23 PM This has probably been posted a myriad of times but since there isn't, or I can't find, the Search function here... but anyway I'm curious what are your thoughts when you see someone stat-ed with STR 17,18+ despite having appearances of say, being slender, or small (elves with STR 18s comparable to say dwarves). I know looks can be deceiving and someone who can be a toothpick can be quite strong, but in other systems (like GURPS) there is a formula which gives the difference between two different strengths a value. For example, a person with STR 16 can lift this amount of weight over his head in a second by using this equation and so on. I'm glancing at the Player's Handbook and the only way to differentiate the strength scores is by comparing them to animals/demi-humans. Do you picture people with STR 18 to be one of those 6'5" NFL linesmen? STR 10 the AVERAGE male who can bench his own weight (though the average female can not bench her own weight and the average male can barel ybench his own weight without adequate training).
Bloodtide_the_Red
09-11-05, 03:30 PM I've always go with the idea that the higher a persons Strgenth score the more bulky they are physicaly. So a STR 18 guy does in fact look like a NFL player. So the idea of a woman that is 5'2'' 98 pound pettie princess, with a STR of 18, just does not work for me(I'd say an STR 18 woman would look a bit more 'Xena-like').

Though note you should only apply this to humans. Others races are diffrent. Elves, for example, are not quite as bulky as humans. So an STR 18 elf is still slender compared to a same strgenth human. This is where you can get all pesudo-science and say that elven muscles have 'more strgenth' vs human muscles of the same size. Or even just go for the magic route.

Though game-wise there are two problems here:
1.That STR number is important in the rules. So while most spellcasters would likely have Strgenths of 6-10, they don't, because it would be too unfair. You don't want bob the Bookworm with a -2 to hit...
And just look at the stats of the NPC's in the books...Storm and Mirt have higher strgenth then Drizzit, even the Simbul is stronger then him. Hummm....
2.The artist view. Storms picture in the FRCS sure does not look like a STR 18 woman, she is way too small. So you can't realy go by a picture. And this blends over to gamers too, as they want their character to 'look cool', no matter thier stats.

BT
Darrian
09-11-05, 03:32 PM As a body building fanatic, I equate strength to muscular size. In D&D this may not directly translate. I mean an elf with an 18 STR and a human with an 18 STR will be equally strong but the human will have much larger musculature.

As a player, I like to think of my high strength PC's as huge and very powerful looking. That is my take.

Darrian
(20 STR by 3.5 rules)
warlockco
09-11-05, 03:34 PM Also not everyone bulks up the same. It depends on the type of regimen you use to build up.

From all accounts Bruce Lee was fairly strong, yet was pretty slender.

Also Body Builder's by their very nature tend to be more bulky than strong, but again this also depends on the type of training they do.
Dylman
09-11-05, 04:41 PM I don't know about antural strength, but with magic items, I prefer to handle it the way it is handled ine the WoTSQ books(i.e. Quenthal and her belt).

Wow, I looked at the strength chart and I have a strength of 15. Not nearly as impressive as Darrian, but I am only 14 years old.
offtheboat
09-12-05, 10:24 AM Thanks all. Very good points. I also prefer to keep strength score somewhat relative to appearance, at least for those that aren't magically enhanced. Bruce Lee is somewhat an exception I guess. Note though we wasn't strong in the sense that he could lift or bench a whole lot, but it's a combination of the speed of a kick or punch and some strength that makes his hits that much more painful. Which makes Drizzt's strength perfect sense. I find it silly to give people high STR scores to make up the deficiency in the BAB. Again to use Bruce Lee as an example, he doesn't need high strength to beat the daylights out of you. Its a combo of extensive training (many levels of monk fighter for example to increase BAB) and prob Feats to hit you. The same with Drizzt.

You know I just realized these characters HAVE to put those extra ability points somewhere when you get high enough in level...
Cli' San Aquanova
09-12-05, 11:38 AM Wow, I looked at the strength chart and I have a strength of 15. Not nearly as impressive as Darrian, but I am only 14 years old.
God dang boy, I'm a few years older than you but according to the chart I'd have a Str score of 12 or 13. And more than likely I dwarf you in size. :P

:shifty:

Anyway, I kinda agree with the rediculously-high Str scores in comparision to the character in question's art. Like Mirt... or Simbul...

However, when it comes to non-human characters, I can somewhat let it slide. Mainly because more than likely we're biomechanically composed differently than them. Like us and chimpanzees. Get Arnold Schwartzie in his prime and compare him to a chimp as regards to strength, and the chimp will school Arnie. Because our muscles may be larger than chimps', but theirs are a hell of a lot denser, and muscle-mass < muscle-density.

So feasibly, an elf could possess greater physical strength than a human who is bigger and more muscular than the elf.

What I don't like about the elf strength though, is how the average wood elf is as strong as the average half-orc... that's wrong...

So when you get down to it though, it's a flawed system. A fun one, but still very flawed.

-C'SA
:u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
WVgamer
09-12-05, 12:00 PM Think about this. A chimp is a lot stronger than an average man, but is significantly smaller. Look the size difference. How is this? I dunno, I'm not a zoologogist, but the fact still remains the same.

Now, why can't we transfer this to other humans, elves, even halfings (a halfling with 23 str would be the strange thing my character ever saw). Even a mind flayer gets a +2 to Str, and look how bony their arms are. So I see no connection from Str score to bulk. I just think it's anatomy that determines bulk and not so much how strong you are.
offtheboat
09-12-05, 12:10 PM Very true. You have to take into account skeletal structure, and right, anatomy... which has influence on how strong you are. However that's comparing different anatomies.

What I don't like about the elf strength though, is how the average wood elf is as strong as the average half-orc... that's wrong...

Half-Orcs begin with +2 STR don't they? So the average Half-Orc is really STR 12 compared to an average Elf which is STR 10. Though I don't see how an average Elf can be as strong as an average Dwarf, heh.

BTW, where is this Strength Chart you're all referring to? The 2E Handbook? :confused:
Another Gnome
09-12-05, 02:01 PM So the average Half-Orc is really STR 12 compared to an average Elf which is STR 10.

Wood elves also get a +2 on their Str scores.

BTW, where is this Strength Chart you're all referring to?

That'd be the chart on carrying capacity as a factor of Str score (3.5 PH p. 162).
offtheboat
09-12-05, 03:42 PM Wood elves also get a +2 on their Str scores.

Really? I thought they were +2 DEX, -2 CON?

EDIT: Ahhh, wood elves. Simply too odd to be the same strength as a Half-orc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
offtheboat 09-11-05, 12:23 PM	This has probably been posted a myriad of times but since there isn't, or I can't find, the Search function here... but anyway I'm curious what are your thoughts when you see someone stat-ed with STR 17,18+ despite having appearances of say, being slender, or small (elves with STR 18s comparable to say dwarves). I know looks can be deceiving and someone who can be a toothpick can be quite strong, but in other systems (like GURPS) there is a formula which gives the difference between two different strengths a value. For example, a person with STR 16 can lift this amount of weight over his head in a second by using this equation and so on. I'm glancing at the Player's Handbook and the only way to differentiate the strength scores is by comparing them to animals/demi-humans. Do you picture people with STR 18 to be one of those 6'5" NFL linesmen? STR 10 the AVERAGE male who can bench his own weight (though the average female can not bench her own weight and the average male can barel ybench his own weight without adequate training).
Bloodtide_the_Red 09-11-05, 03:30 PM	I've always go with the idea that the higher a persons Strgenth score the more bulky they are physicaly. So a STR 18 guy does in fact look like a NFL player. So the idea of a woman that is 5'2'' 98 pound pettie princess, with a STR of 18, just does not work for me(I'd say an STR 18 woman would look a bit more 'Xena-like'). Though note you should only apply this to humans. Others races are diffrent. Elves, for example, are not quite as bulky as humans. So an STR 18 elf is still slender compared to a same strgenth human. This is where you can get all pesudo-science and say that elven muscles have 'more strgenth' vs human muscles of the same size. Or even just go for the magic route. Though game-wise there are two problems here: 1.That STR number is important in the rules. So while most spellcasters would likely have Strgenths of 6-10, they don't, because it would be too unfair. You don't want bob the Bookworm with a -2 to hit... And just look at the stats of the NPC's in the books...Storm and Mirt have higher strgenth then Drizzit, even the Simbul is stronger then him. Hummm.... 2.The artist view. Storms picture in the FRCS sure does not look like a STR 18 woman, she is way too small. So you can't realy go by a picture. And this blends over to gamers too, as they want their character to 'look cool', no matter thier stats. BT
Darrian 09-11-05, 03:32 PM	As a body building fanatic, I equate strength to muscular size. In D&D this may not directly translate. I mean an elf with an 18 STR and a human with an 18 STR will be equally strong but the human will have much larger musculature. As a player, I like to think of my high strength PC's as huge and very powerful looking. That is my take. Darrian (20 STR by 3.5 rules)
warlockco 09-11-05, 03:34 PM	Also not everyone bulks up the same. It depends on the type of regimen you use to build up. From all accounts Bruce Lee was fairly strong, yet was pretty slender. Also Body Builder's by their very nature tend to be more bulky than strong, but again this also depends on the type of training they do.
Dylman 09-11-05, 04:41 PM	I don't know about antural strength, but with magic items, I prefer to handle it the way it is handled ine the WoTSQ books(i.e. Quenthal and her belt). Wow, I looked at the strength chart and I have a strength of 15. Not nearly as impressive as Darrian, but I am only 14 years old.
offtheboat 09-12-05, 10:24 AM	Thanks all. Very good points. I also prefer to keep strength score somewhat relative to appearance, at least for those that aren't magically enhanced. Bruce Lee is somewhat an exception I guess. Note though we wasn't strong in the sense that he could lift or bench a whole lot, but it's a combination of the speed of a kick or punch and some strength that makes his hits that much more painful. Which makes Drizzt's strength perfect sense. I find it silly to give people high STR scores to make up the deficiency in the BAB. Again to use Bruce Lee as an example, he doesn't need high strength to beat the daylights out of you. Its a combo of extensive training (many levels of monk fighter for example to increase BAB) and prob Feats to hit you. The same with Drizzt. You know I just realized these characters HAVE to put those extra ability points somewhere when you get high enough in level...
Cli' San Aquanova 09-12-05, 11:38 AM	Wow, I looked at the strength chart and I have a strength of 15. Not nearly as impressive as Darrian, but I am only 14 years old. God dang boy, I'm a few years older than you but according to the chart I'd have a Str score of 12 or 13. And more than likely I dwarf you in size. :P :shifty: Anyway, I kinda agree with the rediculously-high Str scores in comparision to the character in question's art. Like Mirt... or Simbul... However, when it comes to non-human characters, I can somewhat let it slide. Mainly because more than likely we're biomechanically composed differently than them. Like us and chimpanzees. Get Arnold Schwartzie in his prime and compare him to a chimp as regards to strength, and the chimp will school Arnie. Because our muscles may be larger than chimps', but theirs are a hell of a lot denser, and muscle-mass < muscle-density. So feasibly, an elf could possess greater physical strength than a human who is bigger and more muscular than the elf. What I don't like about the elf strength though, is how the average wood elf is as strong as the average half-orc... that's wrong... So when you get down to it though, it's a flawed system. A fun one, but still very flawed. -C'SA :u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
WVgamer 09-12-05, 12:00 PM	Think about this. A chimp is a lot stronger than an average man, but is significantly smaller. Look the size difference. How is this? I dunno, I'm not a zoologogist, but the fact still remains the same. Now, why can't we transfer this to other humans, elves, even halfings (a halfling with 23 str would be the strange thing my character ever saw). Even a mind flayer gets a +2 to Str, and look how bony their arms are. So I see no connection from Str score to bulk. I just think it's anatomy that determines bulk and not so much how strong you are.
offtheboat 09-12-05, 12:10 PM	Very true. You have to take into account skeletal structure, and right, anatomy... which has influence on how strong you are. However that's comparing different anatomies. What I don't like about the elf strength though, is how the average wood elf is as strong as the average half-orc... that's wrong... Half-Orcs begin with +2 STR don't they? So the average Half-Orc is really STR 12 compared to an average Elf which is STR 10. Though I don't see how an average Elf can be as strong as an average Dwarf, heh. BTW, where is this Strength Chart you're all referring to? The 2E Handbook? :confused:
Another Gnome 09-12-05, 02:01 PM	So the average Half-Orc is really STR 12 compared to an average Elf which is STR 10. Wood elves also get a +2 on their Str scores. BTW, where is this Strength Chart you're all referring to? That'd be the chart on carrying capacity as a factor of Str score (3.5 PH p. 162).
offtheboat 09-12-05, 03:42 PM	Wood elves also get a +2 on their Str scores. Really? I thought they were +2 DEX, -2 CON? EDIT: Ahhh, wood elves. Simply too odd to be the same strength as a Half-orc.