Substitution levels in the Realms. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Substitution levels in the Realms. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
j_gunder
04-17-06, 02:41 AM Edit: Looking back, this is more than a rant than anything else. I apologize, but I'd still like to know how you feel about it.

To preface this, I am a big fan of the changes from 2e to 3.0/3.5...I love the streamlining of the system, the accessibility, the ease with which new feats and new prestige classes can be designed to give players many options in building their characters. Great stuff.

Despite the fact that there are several hundred feats and prestige classes simply within the published FR material, I never felt overwhelmed by it...figured that it all had a place in the Realms, and that it would enrich my games.

Then things started to change. Vile feats and prestige classes were starting to win support in the Realms (Champions of Ruin). I saw an NPC statted out with levels in Bear Warrior (City of Splendors: Waterdeep if I am not mistaken), another NPC with the Saint template (I forget where)...oh no! I had successfully dodged the first wave of class-specific supplements (Song and Silence and its kin), and never had to worry about any of that stuff in the Realms (it wasn't supported at all, save for some feats which carried over but were re-printed in full and changed to fit the Realms), only to find that stuff from the Complete series had started leaking into the Forgotten Realms...as well as stuff from the BoED and BoVD, which are considered by some to be 3rd-party material (I don't know if it is or not, so I don't judge).

Then, with Champions of Valor, the FR saw the first instances of substitution levels in the Realms...and I almost wept. I love giving players options, and customizability can lead to some great gaming experiences, but hell...when is it going to stop? It used to be a simple matter of saying "I only allow core and FR-specific sources in my campaigns," but now I feel as if I have to chop up the existing FR material to weed out mechanics that I feel are detrimental to the game (such as substitution levels). Isn't the whole idea of substitution levels what prestige classes were made for in the first place?

I completely understand the marketing strategy behind it, it just makes me sad to have to redefine my games constantly...do any of you feel the same way? When you run your campaigns and limit the sources and mechanics available to players, where do you draw the line? I have always felt justified in excuding Eberron material in my Realms campaigns, but what about the Completes and the Races of... series?

As a player, how would you feel if a DM said "Your sources are limited to 3.5 core, FR supplements and web enhancements (minus substitution levels) and the XPH?" Those are the books I have, those are the books I know...I have an awareness of the broken/problematic feats, spells, equipment and PrCs within, enough that I can anticipate problems before they happen...but my knowledge of the given sources, encyclopaedic though it may be, does not extend to other materials...and I don't feel that I can safely incorporate it all and still run a balanced game.

In the end, it has to be fun for me (as the DM) as well as the players, and for it to be fun for me I need to know what's coming. I like that I know what most everything within the given sources is...I don't like having strange spells flung at me without previous knowledge, and I can't always study up on every spell/feat/class available to players before each session.

Just my rant, want to know your thoughts, as well as strategies you use to run your own games (or restrictions that your DM places upon you, if you are a player). Hope I don't offend or bother anyone, just needed to vent.

Kind of makes me want to switch back to 2e...at least I KNOW no more new material will be printed there...
Book
04-17-06, 12:25 PM Our Forgotten Realms gaming group uses every single WotC sourcebook in 3.0 and 3.5. Yes, even Eberron, Greyhawk, Ghostwalk, OA & Dragonlance material. New game mechanic options (classes, PrCs, spells, feats, gear, etc.) are always welcome. The expansion of options means more possible customization permutations for the myriad amount of play concepts in the vast F.R. Most of the top-tier DM's I know and play with realize that happy players are ones that have unlimited access to books when creating optimized characters. And those same satisfied players are usually willing to work with the DM in tweaking/revising overpowered and/or broken game mechanics to have them fit within a given group dynamic and the campaign's parameters. And to, you always have the option of denying access to certain mechanics.
Omya
04-17-06, 02:22 PM Our Forgotten Realms gaming group uses every single WotC sourcebook in 3.0 and 3.5. Yes, even Eberron, Greyhawk, Ghostwalk, OA & Dragonlance material. New game mechanic options (classes, PrCs, spells, feats, gear, etc.) are always welcome. The expansion of options means more possible customization permutations for the myriad amount of play concepts in the vast F.R. Most of the top-tier DM's I know and play with realize that happy players are ones that have unlimited access to books when creating optimized characters. And those same satisfied players are usually willing to work with the DM in tweaking/revising overpowered and/or broken game mechanics to have them fit within a given group dynamic and the campaign's parameters. And to, you always have the option of denying access to certain mechanics.

Exactly. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
j_gunder 04-17-06, 02:41 AM	Edit: Looking back, this is more than a rant than anything else. I apologize, but I'd still like to know how you feel about it. To preface this, I am a big fan of the changes from 2e to 3.0/3.5...I love the streamlining of the system, the accessibility, the ease with which new feats and new prestige classes can be designed to give players many options in building their characters. Great stuff. Despite the fact that there are several hundred feats and prestige classes simply within the published FR material, I never felt overwhelmed by it...figured that it all had a place in the Realms, and that it would enrich my games. Then things started to change. Vile feats and prestige classes were starting to win support in the Realms (Champions of Ruin). I saw an NPC statted out with levels in Bear Warrior (City of Splendors: Waterdeep if I am not mistaken), another NPC with the Saint template (I forget where)...oh no! I had successfully dodged the first wave of class-specific supplements (Song and Silence and its kin), and never had to worry about any of that stuff in the Realms (it wasn't supported at all, save for some feats which carried over but were re-printed in full and changed to fit the Realms), only to find that stuff from the Complete series had started leaking into the Forgotten Realms...as well as stuff from the BoED and BoVD, which are considered by some to be 3rd-party material (I don't know if it is or not, so I don't judge). Then, with Champions of Valor, the FR saw the first instances of substitution levels in the Realms...and I almost wept. I love giving players options, and customizability can lead to some great gaming experiences, but hell...when is it going to stop? It used to be a simple matter of saying "I only allow core and FR-specific sources in my campaigns," but now I feel as if I have to chop up the existing FR material to weed out mechanics that I feel are detrimental to the game (such as substitution levels). Isn't the whole idea of substitution levels what prestige classes were made for in the first place? I completely understand the marketing strategy behind it, it just makes me sad to have to redefine my games constantly...do any of you feel the same way? When you run your campaigns and limit the sources and mechanics available to players, where do you draw the line? I have always felt justified in excuding Eberron material in my Realms campaigns, but what about the Completes and the Races of... series? As a player, how would you feel if a DM said "Your sources are limited to 3.5 core, FR supplements and web enhancements (minus substitution levels) and the XPH?" Those are the books I have, those are the books I know...I have an awareness of the broken/problematic feats, spells, equipment and PrCs within, enough that I can anticipate problems before they happen...but my knowledge of the given sources, encyclopaedic though it may be, does not extend to other materials...and I don't feel that I can safely incorporate it all and still run a balanced game. In the end, it has to be fun for me (as the DM) as well as the players, and for it to be fun for me I need to know what's coming. I like that I know what most everything within the given sources is...I don't like having strange spells flung at me without previous knowledge, and I can't always study up on every spell/feat/class available to players before each session. Just my rant, want to know your thoughts, as well as strategies you use to run your own games (or restrictions that your DM places upon you, if you are a player). Hope I don't offend or bother anyone, just needed to vent. Kind of makes me want to switch back to 2e...at least I KNOW no more new material will be printed there...
Book 04-17-06, 12:25 PM	Our Forgotten Realms gaming group uses every single WotC sourcebook in 3.0 and 3.5. Yes, even Eberron, Greyhawk, Ghostwalk, OA & Dragonlance material. New game mechanic options (classes, PrCs, spells, feats, gear, etc.) are always welcome. The expansion of options means more possible customization permutations for the myriad amount of play concepts in the vast F.R. Most of the top-tier DM's I know and play with realize that happy players are ones that have unlimited access to books when creating optimized characters. And those same satisfied players are usually willing to work with the DM in tweaking/revising overpowered and/or broken game mechanics to have them fit within a given group dynamic and the campaign's parameters. And to, you always have the option of denying access to certain mechanics.
Omya 04-17-06, 02:22 PM	Our Forgotten Realms gaming group uses every single WotC sourcebook in 3.0 and 3.5. Yes, even Eberron, Greyhawk, Ghostwalk, OA & Dragonlance material. New game mechanic options (classes, PrCs, spells, feats, gear, etc.) are always welcome. The expansion of options means more possible customization permutations for the myriad amount of play concepts in the vast F.R. Most of the top-tier DM's I know and play with realize that happy players are ones that have unlimited access to books when creating optimized characters. And those same satisfied players are usually willing to work with the DM in tweaking/revising overpowered and/or broken game mechanics to have them fit within a given group dynamic and the campaign's parameters. And to, you always have the option of denying access to certain mechanics. Exactly. ;)