Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sroblin 09-06-07, 03:03 PM	Well, from the latest Design & Development post on the Wizard site, it seems clear that all 'elves' in 4th edition are going to be 3rd editions 'wood elves' (affinity with divine, not arcane magic, passionate, fey and impulsive, etc.), where the intellectual, arcane aspects of elf background are now embodied in 'eladrin'. Now, granted, there is some speculation in what I just said, but the article leaves no doubt that everything 'high elven' about elves has been stripped from the race description (their affinity for arcane magic, their thoughtfulness and capacity for long-term planning, anything not-woodsy about their civilizations), and seems to have been attributed to these 'eldarin' who are 'related'. It looks pretty much like they've actually created 'wood elves' and 'high elves', although we can't know what else will be attributed to eladrin, and whether they retain any of their original planar related background. This disruption of continuity annoys me to no end, (if they could just have called them high and wood elves, that would have been better IMO), but at least I thought "this will not result in a change to the background of FR." The high and wood elves roles are clearly assumed within the elven sub-races of FR, and instead of introducing eladrin, they can just use their respective stats for the appropriate cultures. However, having read about how they want core DnD rules to be portable directly to FR, I am growing concerned that we will see either a massive retcon or the introduction of a new large race- and I don't know which would be worse, because sun/moon elves using 4th edition elf paradigms would seem way off, and introducing high-elfy eladrin would be big redundancy. (I figure that moon elves embody more the civilization and magical characteristics of 'high elves', than those of wood elves.) I'd welcome your own opinions on the subject.
Suin Bahhar 09-06-07, 04:17 PM	Please leave fluff alone WotC. I love eladrin and wood elves but I find the changes to D&D mythology strange.
GothicDan 09-06-07, 04:50 PM	I'll flip a table if they try to connect Sun Elves to Eladrin.
MarkHall 09-06-07, 05:27 PM	I'll flip a table if they try to connect Sun Elves to Eladrin. Like, say, the Last Mythal trilogy did? *mischevious grin*
Zandilar 09-06-07, 06:55 PM	Heya, Eladrin and Elves have always been kind of related due to their mutual connection to the Fey.
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 07:10 PM	-Related, yeah. They are, however, in no way, substitutable!
MerrikCale 09-06-07, 08:32 PM	I'll flip a table if they try to connect Sun Elves to Eladrin. As soon as I read the OP, I said to myself "GD will flip a table"
GothicDan 09-06-07, 08:35 PM	I flip tables all the time. I almost flipped my desk just a few minutes ago while doing thermodynamics homework. And... Let's not talk about Last Mythal, shall we? As to the relations between Eladrin and Elves... They share the same Planes and similar fey characteristics. But neither the Twilight Courts nor the Seldarine share any actual blood, heritage, etc. with the Seelie Court.
SmartPaladin 09-06-07, 09:22 PM	The more I read about 4.0, the more nervous I become... I came in a little before the update to 3.5, and that wasn't that big of a change. But this? This makes me want to grab the Paladin Class, and the Half Elf race, climb the Empire state building, and act like King Kong.
godbeepit 09-06-07, 09:41 PM	How exactly does one grab a race and a class?;) To me, it's not all that much of a surprise that they could call elves and eladrin close cousins. I assumed that the high elves or gray elves or sun elves or whatever, had just been kinda shunned out. Of course then, as per the PHB (not FRCS, I know) they only have the one elven race. I can completely understand them saying that if in fact it is the PHB core race of elves and all the other subtypes just fall into the MM like it did in v3.5.
MerrikCale 09-06-07, 10:02 PM	To me, it's not all that much of a surprise that they could call elves and eladrin close cousins. I assumed that the high elves or gray elves or sun elves or whatever, had just been kinda shunned out. Of course then, as per the PHB (not FRCS, I know) they only have the one elven race. I can completely understand them saying that if in fact it is the PHB core race of elves and all the other subtypes just fall into the MM like it did in v3.5. the problem, being of course, this FR we're talking about
BadCatMan 09-06-07, 10:25 PM	Did you see? Corellon is now a "fey god". Between this, eladrin becoming some kind of high elf, succubi becoming devils, and goodness knows what else, 4e is looking less like the D&D of old and more like some other unrelated generic fantasy world loosely based on it. Hopefully this won't translate into FR, but...
SmartPaladin 09-06-07, 11:16 PM	How exactly does one grab a race and a class?;) Very carefully. :P Did you see? Corellon is now a "fey god". I don't see how Corellon wouldn't be a "fey god". Elves are a kind of fairy after all.
Keldar 09-07-07, 03:28 AM	I hope this isn't going to turn into some bizzare retcon just to uphold they're "No Subraces!" rule. Would it have been so bad to provide options for racial abilities to represent cultural differences, rather than kick the magic using elf we've had for more than 3 decades to the curb?
Valgard 09-07-07, 06:25 AM	I think the most probable thing to happen is this: Will Probably be Posted by Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Aug 2008 There are five major subraces of elves, the sun elves, moon elves, wild elves, wood elves and drow (...) The sun elves and moon elves, also known as gold elves and silver elves respectively, are also known as a group as eladrin (...) and use the PHB eladrin base stats except as noted below (...) the wild elves and wood elves, also known as green elves and copper elves respectively (...) use the PHB elf base stat except as noted below (...) I think the eladrin races of the future PHB has nothing to do with the now chaotic good outsiders of Arvandor... they are simply another race of 'elf'.
Dimensional_Drifter 09-07-07, 10:10 AM	I don't see why they would change anything about the elven subraces. Sounds like too much work and it would have a bad reception from a good many people. Besides, Elves and Eladrin are separate and should stay that way.
Lord Karsus 09-07-07, 10:37 AM	I think the most probable thing to happen is this: I think the eladrin races of the future PHB has nothing to do with the now chaotic good outsiders of Arvandor... they are simply another race of 'elf'. -What happens to the real, actual Eladrin, then? Hopefully this won't translate into FR, but... -Agreed. The more I read about 4.0, the more nervous I become... I came in a little before the update to 3.5, and that wasn't that big of a change. But this? This makes me want to grab the Paladin Class, and the Half Elf race, climb the Empire state building, and act like King Kong. :rofl:
Sroblin 09-07-07, 10:50 AM	Well, I'm generally annoyed by changes in continuity and gratuitous ret-conning, but I figure that what Valgard's suggests is the most practical and likely outcome of this all. This overall wouldn't be to bad, as long as there is no suggestion that 'eladrin' are a race entirely apart from the other elves. I mean, the sub-races already had different rules. However, we can't be sure that 'eladrin' will really be that elf like after all, even if the preview blurb says that they're related. What if they're blue and winged- (ok, an extreme example...) I wouldn't be surprised if the designers feel it would be good to make them more physically distinct from the standard elf. That leaves me uncertain as well whether they're going to be introduced separately in the setting... But if they just say- as Valgard suggests- 'oh, those Moon and Sun elves- you can also call them eladrin if you want', well that wouldn't be so bad. Except for the (few) fans of those poor chaotic-good outsiders.
DarkSongKnight 09-07-07, 10:53 AM	What are the chances that The Lady Penitent series will affect all elves, and not just drow? That might could explain the drastic cut in variety among the elves... Quite a horrifying thought, I know.
Lord Karsus 09-07-07, 11:04 AM	What are the chances that The Lady Penitent series will affect all elves, and not just drow? -Slim, since it seems Drow are the only protagonists.
MarkHall 09-07-07, 12:26 PM	IIRC, aren't the Wild Elves a 3e addition to the Realms canon?
Lord Karsus 09-07-07, 01:53 PM	IIRC, aren't the Wild Elves a 3e addition to the Realms canon? -Yes. Before that, there were simply Green Elves. I basically ignore the idea that Wild Elves are their own Elven subrace, and continue to maintain that Wild Elves are simply feral and barbaric Wood Elves.
godbeepit 09-07-07, 03:39 PM	the problem, being of course, this FR we're talking about Exactly my point. I thought?:confused: I was meaning to say that it is probably the PHB definition of elf that is being used as even in v3.5 the PHB only has one sub-race and that the FRCS will most likely detail the other sub-races as they are an intrinsic part of Faerunian lore. (And while I'm not old enough to know for sure, it seems that the sub-race idea came from Faerun. But I'm probably totally off base there.)
MarkusTay63 09-07-07, 03:52 PM	I used to joke that it's really all the same world, in different time periods. In the beginning, millions of years ago, we had Blackmoor. Fast forward the timeline thousands of years and the world changes and becomes Mystara. The wheels of Time turn some more, eons go by, and the world looks like Greyhawk. Then those mean, rotten 'Faerie' Elves go and Sunder the planet, and we wind up with FR. :D Then 4th edition comes along... they change all the core races... advance the timeline to create some new stuff along with some 'Forbidden Zone' type area... And FR becomes Eberron!!! :eek: So, a thousand years from now thats what FR will look like, and thats our NEW FR. :weep: What will happen to the 'real' Eladrin you ask? They will go the way of the Erinyes... they will become EXTINCT!!! The last few days I have a bad stomache-ache... anyone else feeling queesy?
SmartPaladin 09-07-07, 04:56 PM	And FR become Eberron!!! :eek: Does it have to become Eberron? I tried reading the players guide once... It gave me a headack. Though the idea of a "Male Lolth" was kinda cool...
Zandilar 09-07-07, 06:32 PM	Heya, -What happens to the real, actual Eladrin, then? I've heard rumblings that they're changing the alignment system. Once they do that, the Great Wheel will almost certainly be obsolete (or will change very substantially)... Also, they're already making changes to other outsiders... For example, the Succubus is becoming a Devil and the Erinyes is, as far as I know, being completely eliminated.
GothicDan 09-07-07, 07:33 PM	According to our most lovable 'Loth on the boards, the Great Wheel's going to be around still (or, at the very least, Baator), with some fairly 'minor' changes.
MarkusTay63 09-07-07, 10:36 PM	But the concept of "one set of rules for all" that they are espousing now kind of goes against that. However, I can see a merger of the tree and the Wheel... or rather a more sensible explanation of why the Tree IS in FR now, along the lines that many of us have already concluded (just different ways to visualize the same concept). It will be interesting if it will be one pantheon for all, as well. I hope we get Vecna... :devil:
GothicDan 09-07-07, 10:37 PM	Vecna's much cooler than Velsharoon. :) Unless one considers Velsharoon as an aspect of Mellifleur. Shar and Vecna teaming up in my head makes me have shivers of delight, though.
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 12:00 AM	Wow... :eek: They could give a Set/Bane team-up nightmares.
godbeepit 09-08-07, 12:33 AM	Are they really going with the one set of rules for all? I mean, I can understand why but its rather pointless. It eases the hassle of entering a new setting, but in all honesty it's not hard at all to get into it. I haven't even played an FR game yet, but I'd still say I've got a decent amount of lore under my belt. A side note, I hope we get the Head of Vecna.:angelhide
Valgard 09-08-07, 01:31 PM	... or rather a more sensible explanation of why the Tree IS in FR now...3rd Edition time has to completely pass before they explain why is the cosmology in 3rd Edition as it is? Well... at least, if they are revising the alignment system, the Great Wheel, based upon the 'old' alignment system, will have a similar revision, don't you think?
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 03:30 PM	I see both changing and becoming complimentary. An amalgam of both, since in reality both are really just ways on conceptualizing the inconceivable. ;) Are they really going with the one set of rules for all? I mean, I can understand why but its rather pointless. It eases the hassle of entering a new setting, but in all honesty it's not hard at all to get into it. I haven't even played an FR game yet, but I'd still say I've got a decent amount of lore under my belt.I believe, and it's only my opinion, but the way it will work is that everything you need will be in the core books. Then, they will come out with specific campaign guides that could possibly have some further rules specific to the setting, just as before. The difference, I think IMHO, is that ANY rule that appears in ANY product will be useble across the board. In other words, if there is a Feat you like in an Eberron book you WILL be alowed to use it in FR. You could always still house-rule it back the old way, but for now it appears we are getting an "all rules apply everywhere" system. What this means 'officially' is that if you can find it in a WotC product, it is 'legal'. I guess that should stop about 50% of the arguments on so many boards (like, "can I use Warforged in FR?"). A side note, I hope we get the Head of Vecna.:angelhideJust the Head? :confused: I want the whole DAMN god. :devil: I have a feeling the pantheons might be getting merged as well... there was some disturbing official stuff about Elves worshipping both Corellon and Obad-Hai in 4e...
GreenKnight 09-09-07, 02:09 AM	I posted this in another thread, but I thought I'd repeat it, here. -------------------------------------------------------------- As for Eladrin, the following was posted over at ENWorld by Mouseferatu (Ari Marmell). A guess of his on the nature of the Eladrin PC race. Or, consider this possibility. Perhaps the eladrin known to dwell amongst mortals are simply the weakest of their kin, the fey that interact most frequently with the material plane. In other worlds, places with strange names like Arcadia and Arborea, far more alien eladrin, with powers beyond those comprehensible to mortals and strange titles like "ghaele" and "bralani," are said to dwell. And here was a response to that post made by Michele Carter, who's an RPG Senior Editor at WoTC. You're a smart guy, Ari. *whistles* So the Eladrin, as we know them, may not be gone. The Eladrin PC's are just the weakest of the Eladrin. Ghaele's and such may still be around, and just as powerful as ever.
Suin Bahhar 09-09-07, 08:12 AM	This sounds good.
GothicDan 09-09-07, 08:44 AM	Sounds stupid to me. Why call them Eladrin if they're not.. eladrin? Oh, wait. Mechanical descriptors. Right..
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 09:26 AM	So the Eladrin, as we know them, may not be gone. The Eladrin PC's are just the weakest of the Eladrin. Ghaele's and such may still be around, and just as powerful as ever. -That's all fine and good, but Elves are still not Eladrin.
Suin Bahhar 09-09-07, 09:38 AM	Now it's technically a naming convention. In this setup all sun elves get the otherworldy feat for free. Thats not that far fetched if the new eladrins are planar elves of lower power than the real "elven angels" i.e. Gheales and Bralani. That's what sun elves from tintageer effectively are, elves from a different plane. I seriously think none of this will tranfer to the realms as the distinction between the elven subraces are too deeply ingrained with current lore. Otherwise the above explanation has to do...
GothicDan 09-09-07, 10:02 AM	That would include both Sun Elves AND Moon Elves then. And they are from another PRIME plane - Faerie was another prime World, not another Plane.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 10:10 AM	That's what sun elves from tintageer effectively are, elves from a different plane. -They were simply Sun and Moon Elves. I seriously think none of this will tranfer to the realms as the distinction between the elven subraces are too deeply ingrained with current lore. -Yeah, well if the new rules don't allow for Sun/Moon Elves NPCs/PCs...
Suin Bahhar 09-09-07, 10:11 AM	I think elves travelling though the planes will make them eladrin in 4ed then. Yeah the moon elves would have to be eladrin too... I am trying to make some sense of what the designers are thinking. Why would they fold eladrin and high elves? Why change the perfectly good flavor of the past 25 years? Bah, I don't even want to defend this rubbish...
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 10:14 AM	Bah, I don't even want to defend this rubbish... -Then don't. You'll feel morally clean once you stop. ;)
Suin Bahhar 09-09-07, 10:25 AM	I want to like 4ed. Really. I'm optimistic for the changes for better and smoother roleplaying. But changes to lore are very hard to swallow. I hope FR 4E will include all things I love about the Realms as to date. Anyhow, up to know the lore they generate with the preview articles are to be ignored if I want to keep the things I want. I guess it will be alot of conversion work in the future.
GreenKnight 09-09-07, 10:31 AM	-That's all fine and good, but Elves are still not Eladrin. Why not? Eladrin are pretty much just elves with super-powers. Personally I like the idea of regular elves being a part of a greater fey race which hails from an otherworldly realm.
GothicDan 09-09-07, 10:36 AM	Eladrin ARE and always HAVE BEEN CELESTIALS. Not Elves. No. Not Elves in any way. They are not and never have been connected intrinsically to the Seldarine. They are ARBOREA. *Just a bit of a fitful rant.*
Suin Bahhar 09-09-07, 11:05 AM	Celadrin (this is what eldarin and elf offspring is called, right?) are maybe more prevalent amongst sun and moon elves. These are allowed as PC characters already in some campaigns and may well be the format WotC will use to give the new eladrin race balanced stats. But generic high elves should exist. Maybe in the PHB2 along with gnomes and bards. ><
GothicDan 09-09-07, 11:55 AM	I'm still not a huge fan of the Celdarin being statted, since they're so rare. But that's more a personal stance on 3E methodology than Eric's actual work (top notch as always).
MarkusTay63 09-09-07, 02:59 PM	Okay, Dan and LK are gonna hate me, but this seems to fit perfectly with some of my pre-history stuff. Dan, you and I both know that the Fey and Elves are related, right? The relationship has never really been detailed, but it has always been there in the background (like the word 'Sylvan' being used to describe BOTH Fey creatures and wood Elves). Where did you get that Fäerie was a prime world? :confused: It's been a plane, either demi or full, since 2e. Since we know the Fey are native to Toril, and left at some point (either after the Black Diamond episode happened, or later as I believe), Then they either founded Fäerie (my belief) or discovered the plane and took it over. My take - The Dwarves of the Yehimals found the Black Diamond and brought it to Titania's court, where it corrupted the Queen of Air and Darkness and created the Hanya-maut Wasteland. Prior to that, the Elves had a heavy presence in Kara-Tur, but after that they fled, most likely to Osse. The realm of Fäerie and the Plane of Dreams are said to be connected on some level (I believe that one is part of the other), and since Osse is the FR version of Australia it would make sense for the natives from there to have dream-related magic. Then for whatever reason, the Fey broke-off their chunk of Real Estate from Osse and created their demi-plane (or moved it to the Plane of Dreams). Poppycock, you say? Then why was Kara-Tur practically empty when the Shou arrived from another plane? From an anthropological viewpoint, it makes very little sense that no sentient race was already dominating the region. Either way, we know the Fey were on Toril (Abeir-Toril) and left (and took 'Abeir' with them? ;) ). From Darkvision, I have gleened that the ancient Imaskari learned some of their 'otherworldy' tricks from the Le'Shay, who are prettyy obviously the decendents of FR's Fey. After some 25,000 years, the Fey race, being natural shapechangers, would have evolved into hundreds, perhaps thousands, of other species throughout the universe. The Elves, of course, are the children of the Fey who left the planes and came back to the Prime material, and are therefore losing their own immortality with each successive generation. The further a 'Fey' creture is removed from his heritage, the more he/she loses that thing that makes them 'fey'. That is why the Drow live relatively short lives compared to other Elves - they have fallen the furthest from their 'core' being. I know that was a bit long, and I apologize, but it does fit with this whole 'Eladrin' thing. I think the designers have desided words like 'Fey' and 'Sylvan' have become too convoluted through editions, so they have settled on the word 'Eladrin' to describe that proto-race that the Le'Shay, Elves, Fairies, Brownies, etc... have all evolved FROM. The Eladrin would have been the Creator Race we have all been wondering about for so long. Isn't it curious that there has been ZERO development of the Fey creator race, and creatures that were common in 2e, like Brownies, have been suspiciously missing? Someone in the know, I think Ed himself, made a comment way back at the beginning of the year over at Candlekeep about us finally getting some Fäerie Lore toward the end of this year in an official product. coincidence? I think not.... :cool:
GreenKnight 09-09-07, 04:17 PM	Eladrin ARE and always HAVE BEEN CELESTIALS. Not Elves. No. Not Elves in any way. They are not and never have been connected intrinsically to the Seldarine. They are ARBOREA. *Just a bit of a fitful rant.* Well, they should be connected. It makes a whole lot more sense for the elven gods to be served by Eladrins then by other celestials. And making the elven gods, eladrins, drow, and elves all part of one big, happy fae family makes perfect sense. It's about time that the magic got put back into the elves, rather then them being nothing more then longer-lived humans with pointy ears.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 04:53 PM	Where did you get that Fäerie was a prime world? :confused: -There are multiple Faeries. There is the actual plane of Faerie, there is the planet called Faerie... Celadrin (this is what eldarin and elf offspring is called, right?) are maybe more prevalent amongst sun and moon elves. -Celadrin appear as the children of devout worshippers of Hanali Celanil. That kind of transcends subrace. Theoretically, there could be a Celadrin with Drow parents. They are not and never have been connected intrinsically to the Seldarine. -Most members of the Seldarine are served by some form of Eladrin, however. Aerdrie, Angharradh, Corellon, Deep Sashelas, Erevan, Hanali, Rillifane, Sehanine, Shevarash, and Solonar. Why not? Eladrin are pretty much just elves with super-powers. -While in an ideal world, Elves and Eladrin are distantly related, my point still remains- Elves and Eladrin are two seperate and distinct creatures that cannot be interchanged. The red wire and the black wire are both connected to your battery, and both serve a similar purpose, but cross them and see what happens.
Suin Bahhar 09-09-07, 05:15 PM	-Celadrin appear as the children of devout worshippers of Hanali Celanil. That kind of transcends subrace. Theoretically, there could be a Celadrin with Drow parents. -While in an ideal world, Elves and Eladrin are distantly related, my point still remains- Elves and Eladrin are two seperate and distinct creatures that cannot be interchanged. The red wire and the black wire are both connected to your battery, and both serve a similar purpose, but cross them and see what happens. I thought the mixing of elves and eladrin would result in celadrin. @Markus Linking the move to eladrin as the revealing of the Fey creatorrace sounds plausible. The Le'Shay could very well be the Fey creator race.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 06:45 PM	I thought the mixing of elves and eladrin would result in celadrin. -I don't have the article of DRAGON magazine handy, but I believe that Celadrin are created when Hanali sends one of her Eladrin servants to...'bless' said worshipper. After the union, a Celadrin is born ('Cel' as in Hanali Celanil, 'Adrin' as in 'Eladrin'). So, yes, you are correct. The catch, though, is that Hanali Celanil needs to send the Eladrin to said worshipper for a Celadrin to be born. Otherwise, you get an...Eladree! Dan loves Eladree!
Dark Wizard 09-09-07, 07:26 PM	They need a new name for the 4E Eladrin. Maybe a variant word for Elf.
MerrikCale 09-09-07, 09:27 PM	Eladrin ARE and always HAVE BEEN CELESTIALS. Not Elves. No. Not Elves in any way. They are not and never have been connected intrinsically to the Seldarine. They are ARBOREA. wait a minute. what are you saying? eldarin? they're not elves?
GothicDan 09-09-07, 09:59 PM	*Mauls Merrik.* *Gnaws on LK.* *Speakers gibberish, runs off into the sunset.*
godbeepit 09-09-07, 10:15 PM	*Mauls Merrik.* *Gnaws on LK.* *Speakers gibberish, runs off into the sunset.* Totally called that one.
MarkusTay63 09-09-07, 10:47 PM	-Celadrin appear as the children of devout worshippers of Hanali Celanil. That kind of transcends subrace. Theoretically, there could be a Celadrin with Drow parents. Bless your little heart. :D They need a new name for the 4E Eladrin. Maybe a variant word for Elf.Elfladrins? ;) All I'm thinking is that they need some 'umbrella' name for the whole extended race/family, so the designers chose 'Eladrin'. Big deal - we will still see our 'Celestial' type in 4e. Like I keep saying, the rules changes seem like good ones, for the most part. If lumping groups of critters together will make rules easier (as to their powers and weaknesses), who cares about the mechanics in the background? A names just a name, after all. Its the changes to the setting that keeps ME awake at night. :whatsthis
MerrikCale 09-09-07, 11:07 PM	*Mauls Merrik.* *Gnaws on LK.* *Speakers gibberish, runs off into the sunset.* a little healing here......hello?......anyone?......
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 11:53 PM	*Mauls Merrik.* *Gnaws on LK.* *Speakers gibberish, runs off into the sunset.* -Now, was that really necessary? Bless your little heart. :D -As far as I know, there isn't anything that specifically bars Drow... a little healing here......hello?......anyone?...... -Here, drink this potion.
MarkHall 09-10-07, 04:17 AM	wait a minute. what are you saying? eldarin? they're not elves? *chuckle* I misread you at first, and then I realized that in, about... 18 months, we're going to get the message that says, "What do you mean, elves? Don't you mean Eldarin?" And it will be completely serious.
Alediran 09-10-07, 09:41 AM	What the hell where they thinking when they decided to make that awfull change. As always WotC making changes that hurt the realms just for the sake of simplicity and to give trolls what they whant, while those of us who were happy with things as they where are going to be insulted by those same smelly trolls who at last got what they wanted. Just as I decided when I first read about the Spellplage, if 4ed FR underwent a plastic surgery that mass destroyed parts of the realms I'm not going to make the change. The core rules if are better than 3ed I would use them, but my first work will be to recreate FR sub-races if they become extinct. I can see the hordes of true fans of the realms invading WotC offices after the 4ed FRCS says that the Realms are going to be WotC's WoD.
GothicDan 09-10-07, 10:04 AM	LK's potion is the best. *Goes back to secret Elven High Magic Ritual..*
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 12:31 PM	LK's potion is the best. *Goes back to secret Elven High Magic Ritual..* -My potions are the best, it's true. I make 'em with quality ingredients, that's why.
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 12:37 PM	You know what? After a good night's sleep I calmed down and have now adopted a 'wait and see' attitude. Name changes and what-not have little effect on the actual game, and I always disliked the Vancian magic system. The future FR doesn't sound like the one we know, but wheather we like it or not its coming, and whining and guesswork is not going to make it go away. Basically, its like any other consumer product out there - if we like it we buy it, if not it rolls over and dies. The only people's who RL this effects are the designers and authors, so if I were them I'd be selling my soul to Bane that this thing works out. :smirk: LK's potion is the best. *Goes back to secret Elven High Magic Ritual..*Does it look like this - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/xxx_jerking.gif
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 12:53 PM	Does it look like this -[/IMG] :nonono:
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 01:20 PM	C'mon... cut me some slack. I only found that smiley yesterday and I was dying to use it. :D And besides, the first one I had picked out was grosser and far more graphic. :rolleyes: I do have a tiny bit of class left. :P
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 03:49 PM	I do have a tiny bit of class left. :P -There's always a silver lining. ;)
GothicDan 09-10-07, 04:03 PM	DOES it look like that?
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 04:21 PM	No... it involves one smiley on it's knees... and ummmm... it's conclusion... :rolleyes:
Meldread 09-10-07, 10:13 PM	After a good night's sleep I calmed down and have now adopted a 'wait and see' attitude. Name changes and what-not have little effect on the actual game, and I always disliked the Vancian magic system. The future FR doesn't sound like the one we know, but wheather we like it or not its coming, and whining and guesswork is not going to make it go away. Basically, its like any other consumer product out there - if we like it we buy it, if not it rolls over and dies. The only people's who RL this effects are the designers and authors, so if I were them I'd be selling my soul to Bane that this thing works out. That's what I've been saying since the 4E announcement. I've also always hated the Vancian magic system. Oh, and I also laughed at the smilie. ;)
GothicDan 09-10-07, 10:21 PM	I actually like the Vancian system. I just don't like it being the ONLY system. Again, I'll tout Mage here. It could accommodate a Vancian system with its Paradigm, but the core rules under it would actually be much more liberal in its mechanics. I miss you, Mage: the Ascension. I miss you so. :weep:
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 10:45 PM	Was that the same as the Ars Magica system? I remember I liked that very much...
GothicDan 09-10-07, 11:00 PM	It was based on Ars Magica, but is even more free form. Ars Magica was the precursor to Mage. The Order of Hermes became one of the most powerful, oldest, and well-organized and most prestigious Tradition in Mage: the Ascension. They're also my favorites, along with the Sons of Ether (magical physicists and chemists). Basic magic system - Arete: A ranking, 1-5 standard. The max you could have in a Sphere was equal to your Arete. Spheres: Nine magical 'types' of effects, like Schools of Magic: Correspondence, Entropy, Forces, Matter, Mind, Life, Prime, Spirit, and Time. Ranked 1-5. You got a few example Rotes (specifically researched spells) for each rank 1-5, and then general ideas of what you 'could theoretically do' with what Rank in what Sphere. (Ex: Forces 2 was 'Manipulate Minor Forces' - you couldn't create or destroy or change Forces, but you could move them around, like deflecting a Fireball, reversing a person's Gravity, etc.) And then there was Paradigm and Resonance... I think I am going to go have a moment alone with my Mage books now.
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 12:46 AM	Ahhh... I love the order of Hermes, I was thinking of porting it to my FR at one point... Didn't quite fit though... magic is really too well known. It would only work in a world where magic was a secretive or dying art.
Suin Bahhar 09-11-07, 07:18 AM	I liked the Mage: the Ascension system too, very chaotic and free form. Though the storyteller could get headaches treating all the unpredictable uses the players come up with a combination of correspondance and energy magics (my character had this) the players were really liberated. Untill they got too vulgar (uncreative) and their magic bit back at their minds. Ars magica is really hard to track down over here. Never knew its mechanics were similar to those of Mage. It has more similar schools to the ones in D&D?
Lord Karsus 09-11-07, 10:16 AM	-I don't know what you are talking about anymore, but I'll mention that I liked the magic system in Secret of Mana. I loved that game...
MarkHall 09-11-07, 10:25 AM	My problem with Mage's system, believe it or not, was that it was too restrictive. The game was all about finding your own Paradigm for how the world worked and everything, but you know what? Your way the world worked turned out to be identical to everyone else's (same 9 spheres). Plus, I regularly ran into conflicts between style and foci... how my Order of Hermes wizard would do things, and this odd need to include specific items everything, even if he was using other foci (ritual magic and the like). Ars Magica, IMO, is much better. It proceeds from the concept of a central magical theory. What you know influences what spells you can cast. Spells you have researched and perfected at 2-5 times as strong as ones you cast off-the-cuff, but you can do quite a bit off-the-cuff magic, especially in your areas of specialty.
Alediran 09-11-07, 10:36 AM	LK, they are talking about the WoD game called Mage: The Ascension. The only part I disliked about the game is the potential for abuse by the DM with the requirements for making magic (and I suffered one of those DMs who also play a character that is the only one who never fails, :@, making absurd requests for simple spells) The system basicaly gives you 9 spheres, each sphere controls one element, for example: Mater, Time, Correspondence, Forces (elemental forces mainly), Life, Entropy (both luck and death), Mind, Prime (the raw energy of creation), Spirit (the spiritual world and other dimensions). You could be for example a Master (5 points in a sphere) of Time and travell through it, stop it (like Time Stop), go faster (haste) and anything you could think about it. With Life you could be an excelent healer-buffer. Go Virtual Adepts ^^ (you could say I'm something of an VA in RL), Order of Hermes is OK in my book also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mage_The_Ascension
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 10:55 AM	Ars Magica, IMO, is much better. It proceeds from the concept of a central magical theory. What you know influences what spells you can cast. Spells you have researched and perfected at 2-5 times as strong as ones you cast off-the-cuff, but you can do quite a bit off-the-cuff magic, especially in your areas of specialty.This is the part I liked the most - realistic, yet simple. In every novel you read where someone is learning magic/a spell, they need to practice it a few times to get it right, or to reach full power. It just makes sense that a mage who casts fireballs 99% of the time would be MUCH better at them then someone who cast them occassionally. The Runequest system used a similar system for everything, including skills and combat techniques. Every time you used them successfully in a session, you would get better. However, the more you learned, the harder it became to improve. Of course, this style of learning lends itself better to a leveless game. LK - the system in Secret of Mana was VERY similarto RQ - you have to use stuff to get better with it. I loved that game, and it is my son's favorite game of all time (and he's an avid WoW player). Come to think of it, WoW uses a system like that too... I got everything up to 300 (the max) except for fishing... I hate fishing... :rolleyes:
Suin Bahhar 09-11-07, 10:56 AM	My character was a virtual adept. Using correspondence 3 and force 2 to create electric surges was my favorite. Whereever I went I could short all electronics by loading all electric energy on a single wire. When I felt agitated & vulgar I unleashed electric lightningbolts from cellphones in pockets. ^^ I liked the Akashik Brotherhood (Mind focused martial artist) and martial arts and the Technomancers (best villains of World of Darkness IMHO) too.
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 01:14 PM	So you're the reason why people are getting cancer from their cellphones!!! :eek:
Suin Bahhar 09-11-07, 01:38 PM	I used to be but not anymore virtual adepts being ex-technomancers and all.:fett:
Zandilar 09-11-07, 08:40 PM	Heya, Come to think of it, WoW uses a system like that too... I got everything up to 300 (the max) except for fishing... I hate fishing... :rolleyes: Don't you mean 375? Says she who has a Tailor almost to 340. (Man it's a hard grind! As she's only level 50, I have to keep having friendly 70s provide the mats... and the sheer amount of mats needed! Oy!) Or perhaps you're stuck pre-TBC? ;) And, aren't we all getting a little OT now? :P ;)
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 09:15 PM	I stopped playing when the expansion came out, so all my characters are stuck at level 60. I was the first to get a 300 cooking in my guild, and I had the recipe for Savory Deviate Delight that turned us all into pirates. I remember all those nights I spent 'pirate dancin' and shakin' my booty. ;) Good Times... good times.... I also made a mean Smoked Desert Dumpling. :drool:
Suin Bahhar 09-12-07, 08:21 AM	To get back on topic... I think those eladrin will hail from the Abeir part of Fearun and they will return or become more common when the merging of Abeir and Toril is completed. Welcome to the Fey Age.
MarkusTay63 09-12-07, 12:33 PM	Get with the times. We call them Le'Shay now... 'Fey' is just so ... 1375. ;)
SmartPaladin 09-12-07, 05:29 PM	We call them Le'Shay now... 'Fey' is just so ... 1375. ;) Sounds like food...:rolleye2:
Suin Bahhar 09-12-07, 05:44 PM	To an orc... :P
GothicDan 09-12-07, 07:28 PM	I like Ars Magica, too. But when I started to think of things conceptually, I began to see way too much confusion between having mastery over the Nouns vs. the Verbs, so to speak. For instance, does Fire mean you can actually hurl a Fireball, even without mastery over any sort of momentum, telekinesis, etc.? That's where I preferred the Mage system - at least for playability. But I've been trying to sort of meld the two haphazardly for years now, based on the Three Spheres - Material, Elemental, and Mental. As for the universalism of the Spheres... Well, that'd more an in-game history note combining with semantics. Without the various major mage groups actually adopting a flexible, philosophical system with which they could actually DISCUSS magic (sort of what the Guvners did in interpreting the Great Wheel), the Traditions would never have been formed. That being said, in the Storyteller's Guide there's alternate paths called Minor Spheres, one of which is Fire, as an example, and there's guidelines for going about building more. I would build most Crafts and even some more complex Orphans' magical Paradigm with Minor Spheres instead - they have no political or cultural ties to the Traditions.
MarkHall 09-12-07, 09:45 PM	I like Ars Magica, too. But when I started to think of things conceptually, I began to see way too much confusion between having mastery over the Nouns vs. the Verbs, so to speak. For instance, does Fire mean you can actually hurl a Fireball, even without mastery over any sort of momentum, telekinesis, etc.? It depends on the verb. Creo Ignem... I create fire... means you create fire at a given location. It's likely that Ball of Abyssal Flame should have a Rego requisite for targeting purposes (in fact, the 5th edition version specifically mentions that the ball is actually created at the range; appearing in the caster's hand is just an incidental effect). Another example would be the Crystal Shard; it turns earth into a shard of crystal, then throws it at your target. Muto Terram, with a requisite of Rego... I change earth, with the requirement that you be able to control what you change.
MarkusTay63 09-12-07, 11:35 PM	In the Chivalry & Sorcery game system, elemental magic was all based around the rule of three. You could cast up to three different elemental effects as a single spell per turn, for example - Create + Detach + Accelerate Fire First, you create a certain amount of fire (dependent on your level), then 'release it' from its current location (move it), and finally speed up the second effect so it occurs in the same round. You could have made it larger by doing - Create + Amplify + Detach Fire Which would have added a multiplier to the size (and Dmg) of the fireball, but then it would not have left its area of creation until the start of the NEXT turn. Or you could cast it directly where an enemy is standing, and cook them by doing - Create + Amplify + Intensify Fire There were only two levels of fire - normal and magical, but earth had several (dust, sand, earth, Porous rock, etc), as did air and water (poison gas, acid). By combining effects with amounts and shapes (cone, wall, sphere), you could duplicate and improve on any spell in the D&D system. It required quite a bit more number-crunching then D&D, but the system was probably the most realistic I ever used. back on Topic: I wonder how they are going to make all the sweeping changes to PAST lore. Its one thing to destroy the future, but how are they going to retro-actively call Gray/Gold Elves Eladrin? They are going to have to come up with something amazing for it to not look stupid. I hope it isn't just another one of those 'it was always that way' explanantions. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 09-13-07, 01:08 AM	back on Topic: I wonder how they are going to make all the sweeping changes to PAST lore. Its one thing to destroy the future, but how are they going to retro-actively call Gray/Gold Elves Eladrin? They are going to have to come up with something amazing for it to not look stupid. I hope it isn't just another one of those 'it was always that way' explanantions. :rolleyes: -That's my main worry. As was mentioned, I hope this is something that is only to take place in other settings, as various Elven subraces are too deeply ingraned in the fabric of the Realms themselves in order to randomly be eliminated.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-13-07, 03:01 PM	I'm curious to see how they explain this change, myself. I find it all rather surprising (really).
MarkusTay63 09-13-07, 03:44 PM	And thus far, without merit.
Cli' San Aquanova 09-18-07, 12:11 PM	With the way WotC is appearing to handle Forgotten Realms in 4e every one of the hardcore FR players will play homebrew settings, because I've seen no one who's liking the changes WotC is making. :twitch:
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 04:05 PM	With the way WotC is appearing to handle Forgotten Realms in 4e every one of the hardcore FR players will play homebrew settings, because I've seen no one who's liking the changes WotC is making. :twitch: -You know, Cli, if they take away Sun Elves, I might have to take a few pages from your book, in learning how to survive without your race existing anymore...
Cli' San Aquanova 09-18-07, 05:07 PM	-You know, Cli, if they take away Sun Elves, I might have to take a few pages from your book, in learning how to survive without your race existing anymore... I might just pull what I did in that case and end up quit buying the stuff entirely. :ahem: I'm willing to give 4e FR a chance, but all I've heard and seen so far has been extremely worrisome and disappointing. I might just forego all modern products (possibly sticking with the novels) and just pull a buyout of old 2e products. So, if everyone's disappointed with FR 4e, are we all going to band together for a sort of unofficial official homebrew FR setting, or something? :tongue:
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 06:34 PM	I might just forego all modern products... -That's basically what I am planning to do, sans abandoning the novels. So, if everyone's disappointed with FR 4e, are we all going to band together for a sort of unofficial official homebrew FR setting, or something? :tongue: -In my mind, and all of the articles that I churn out, the timeline will be circa 1372-1374.
Zandilar 09-18-07, 07:38 PM	Heya, So, if everyone's disappointed with FR 4e, are we all going to band together for a sort of unofficial official homebrew FR setting, or something? :tongue: If it wasn't for the issues of copyrights and trademarks on the IP, this might not be a bad idea... Still, we can always ask Ed (on Candlekeep) for his advice on how things might develop sans the 4e switch over.
MarkusTay63 09-18-07, 10:05 PM	We can continue to produce 3e lore and keep the old Realms alive by contributing to Candlekeep itself.
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 10:17 PM	We can continue to produce 3e lore and keep the old Realms alive by contributing to Candlekeep itself. -Eh, bad idea. Let's try to produce 2e lore. It's better quality. ;)
Cli' San Aquanova 09-18-07, 10:43 PM	-Eh, bad idea. Let's try to produce 2e lore. It's better quality. ;) Eh... I'm too used to 3e's events and setting though, for better or worse. It'd just feel outright weird going back in time and without the current stuff. 2e's fluff is far superior, though. I still need to get Cloak and Dagger, Sea of Fallen Stars, and Pirates of the Fallen Stars (or whatever its title is), amongst other stuff. But shoot... I like the idea of "us" maintaining a coordinated homebrew FR. As long as we keep our heads straight, I don't think WotC would come after us.
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 11:01 PM	Eh... I'm too used to 3e's events and setting though, for better or worse. It'd just feel outright weird going back in time and without the current stuff. 2e's fluff is far superior, though. I still need to get Cloak and Dagger, Sea of Fallen Stars, and Pirates of the Fallen Stars (or whatever its title is), amongst other stuff. -Hey, that's what I do. I started playing circa 2000 or so, so I've only played in 3e (with one bad experience in 2e). Stats, rules, and all of that stuff, I use 3e. Information, which is the most important part of a FR, and any D&D campaign, I try for 2e. But shoot... I like the idea of "us" maintaining a coordinated homebrew FR. As long as we keep our heads straight, I don't think WotC would come after us. -Didn't realize you were into the Realms.
MarkusTay63 09-19-07, 11:27 AM	-Eh, bad idea. Let's try to produce 2e lore. It's better quality. ;)But 3e encompassed 2e and 1e, whereas 4e just obliterates everything. Ergo, by producing 3e material (using 3e rules), we do not over-write any lore and continue the game in it's CURRENT incarnation, which everyone, even people using older rules, excepts. Although I got to tell you - I'm lovin' most of what I'm hearing about the 4e rules, so that makes me sort of torn right now. I want 'old' Realms with new rules. I guess I can't have my cake an Edith too, eh? ;)
Valgard 09-19-07, 03:43 PM	I want 'old' Realms with new rules. So stay with 'old' FR lore... that's the easy part. The problem would be if you wanted the opposite! I just stayed with the end of the War of the Spider Queen... I put away all that about Lady Penitent and new Cormanthor...
MarkusTay63 09-19-07, 04:16 PM	Since I'm in 1390 DR, I'm already past those (so they happened). However, I will probably diverge my timeline as of 1385 now... Otherwise, the last five years of my game doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But we'll see... I can always pull a temporal anomaly out of my _ss. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-19-07, 06:36 PM	Heya, Still, we can always ask Ed (on Candlekeep) for his advice on how things might develop sans the 4e switch over. That'd be an awesome question. Go for it!
MarkusTay63 09-19-07, 06:49 PM	I believe there already was a thread quite some time ago that was recently brought to the fore, where Ed answered the age-old question "Where do you see the Realms heading in the next hundred years"? Or something like that - just look around CK for some of the 4e-related threads. He didn't forsee this apocalypse, thats for damn sure.
Zandilar 09-19-07, 08:35 PM	Heya, That'd be an awesome question. Go for it! I just wrote a post asking Ed what he thought of the idea of a fan maintained alternate time line/history... So it will be interesting to see what he says. (No, I can't volunteer myself right now to help with such an endeavor if it looks like it won't run into problems with Wizards, because I'm about to move and change ISPs, which will cause problems with webspace and the like... and even if that wasn't the case, I wouldn't rely on me even if you were paid!) I believe there already was a thread quite some time ago that was recently brought to the fore, where Ed answered the age-old question "Where do you see the Realms heading in the next hundred years"? Or something like that - just look around CK for some of the 4e-related threads. He didn't forsee this apocalypse, thats for damn sure. Hmm interesting... I hope someone can direct me to the post. It wasn't somewhere in the Questions for Ed Greenwood threads, was it?
MarkusTay63 09-19-07, 09:11 PM	Hopefully Old Sage will be along shortly to help me out - I know I just read it in the last day or so, but it was a reference to an older thread.
msatran 09-19-07, 11:41 PM	Well, now the Elves of the Wealdath are Elves, and everyone else is an Eladrin? I have built a three foot adamantine plate to keep that Blightspawned Tarrasque with extremely large genitals from plowing me in the behind, and STILL, it manages to try and hump it's way through. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? The Seldarine are now the Sell...and the Eladrin? No WONDER people don't get it. All I can say is "Mad Mirt Beyond Thunderdome! >HE< runs Bartertown." This is RIDICULOUS.
Lord Karsus 09-20-07, 12:50 PM	-Whoa, whoa, whoa...Calm down there...
msatran 09-21-07, 02:40 AM	Look. This falls under the "How to ruin your campaign" section of don'ts. You've been running a game for 3 years. The PC's are about 3/5 of the way through the game. Two PC's are playing elves, related by blood. The 4 E hammer comes and converts you all. PC 1: I don't get it. PC 2: We were the same race five seconds ago. PC 3: Well, this ruins all my RP if this changes. Screw you guys, I'm going home.
GothicDan 09-21-07, 02:43 AM	Hence WotC "strongly recommending" that players just start new games. To me, that be a bit of a hint of a poor method of world alteration, assuming you DON'T want to alienate your current consumers. Anyone know what the sales figures are on the New World of Darkness lines?
Lord Karsus 09-21-07, 10:47 AM	Look. This falls under the "How to ruin your campaign" section of don'ts. You've been running a game for 3 years. The PC's are about 3/5 of the way through the game. Two PC's are playing elves, related by blood. -Then don't convert the campaign to 4e. I run a campaign, and I play in a campaign, and in both cases, the games are going to continue to be in 3e in a 4e world.
GothicDan 09-21-07, 11:44 AM	So what will the affects of the Spellplague have been? What you're suggesting is similar to retconning, LK. Lore always trumps rules, meaning you should change the rules when lore dictates it. And the 4E lore will incorporate the changing to 4E rules.
MarkusTay63 09-21-07, 01:19 PM	I will be using the method suggested by the designers - since there is no way of directly converting characters (although I can't see them changing the way stats work), I will 'interpret' each character into the new rules. My games were NEVER crunch-heavy, so the problems with lore will fade into the background. I'm going to go with a full-blown reversal of the War of Light and Darkness - Mystra and Shar are fighting; just as Mystra hurls herself through Shar to kill her, Selūne appears behind Shar. Mystra tears through and absorbs Shar, but also accidently passes into Selūne, creating a brand new entity - Lunaria - Goddess of the night, mistress of secrets (including the mysteries of magic). BTW, both the Weave and Shadoweave still exist, but they are two sides of the same coin (different magical traditions that access either Arcane OR Eldritch magic). she is the goddess of ALL magic, so she doesn't take sides based on paltry mortal morality. Thats it, end of story. Magic changes, but life goes on. Orcs get a kingdom, but they are still Orcs. Helm still dies, but that enables the Mazticans to revolt and throw off the yoke of Amnish oppression. Cyric is still banished - I never liked him anyway. I've yet to use the Dwarven Pantheon in any substantial way, so I don't really care what happened there.
Lord Karsus 09-21-07, 03:01 PM	What you're suggesting is similar to retconning, LK. Lore always trumps rules, meaning you should change the rules when lore dictates it. And the 4E lore will incorporate the changing to 4E rules. -I'm just suggesting not using 4e, that's all...
MarkusTay63 09-21-07, 04:18 PM	Whereas I'm suggesting using the rules (if you like them), but not any of the new 4e lore. Both of us agree to continue moving forward in the present time, however. :D All I did was create a Mystra that better fits my campaign - one more like Boccob.
GothicDan 09-21-07, 11:02 PM	Amazingly enough, I dislike the current Mystra, but for preference reasons and not thematic/game balance/etc. reasons. I liked the LN Mystra more, and would have USED her more like a Boccob character, albeit with a hint of teasing, feminine "I know something you don't know!" feel about her.
johnkretzer 09-22-07, 12:23 AM	Amazingly enough, I dislike the current Mystra, but for preference reasons and not thematic/game balance/etc. reasons. I liked the LN Mystra more, and would have USED her more like a Boccob character, albeit with a hint of teasing, feminine "I know something you don't know!" feel about her. I actualy like the new Mystra...watching her deal with her mortal moralities and doing her job was interesting in development...it also was changing her... I like this because people want to become god of x...this a morality tail well if you do so you will lose you idenity. Also really I can't of a time she actualy didn't grant someone the ability to cast magic....
ElberethSilverleaf 09-23-07, 01:37 AM	The changes made to elves in a nutshell *sucks*! ------------------------------------------------------ Is it just me but does there seem to be a trend away from alignment restrictions for classes on Good vs Evil? It seems to be a way to entice younger players who have not been raised by their parents to have a concept of "good" ethical behavior yet allow them to play that "really cool" Paladin...who also slaughters the whole village of innocents.... I'm overexaggerating but you get my point. Some younger people can't seem to wrap their minds around what constitutes "good", "ethical", or "honorable" behavior.
MarkusTay63 09-23-07, 01:31 PM	The changes made to elves in a nutshell *sucks*!Your right! Lets just get rid of them completely! :devil: Then we can have some NEW race take over... perhaps something called... ELADRIN. :P Or maybe even the Drizztonians... ;)
johnkretzer 09-23-07, 10:28 PM	Your right! Lets just get rid of them completely! :devil: Then we can have some NEW race take over... perhaps something called... ELADRIN. :P Or maybe even the Drizztonians... ;) Stop giving them ideas...on second thought it doesn't matter anymore.
Suin Bahhar 09-24-07, 09:28 AM	So the weave gets destroyed. Wouldn't elves in particular be effected by such an event? Maybe Silver and Gold elven souls get torn apart from this event leaving Toril with only green elves and eladrin. It could also be the other way around i.e. elves merge with whats left of the weave and become more otherworldy eladrin like. Or maybe not. (Why WotC, Why?)
Suin Bahhar 09-30-07, 05:10 PM	A picture of an eladrin wizard (http://www.enworld.org/images/4e/elawiz.jpg), the new sun elves.
GothicDan 09-30-07, 05:14 PM	animuch?
Suin Bahhar 09-30-07, 06:05 PM	It's done by William O'Conner for wotzee. I even remeber seeing this pic colored somewhere during the GENCON thing.
MarkusTay63 09-30-07, 06:26 PM	Reminds me of the WoW Elves. :D All he needs are some face-tats.
DarkSongKnight 09-30-07, 07:51 PM	I actually like that image. :) Very nice, it could pass as a sun elf. But it also looks like a blood elf from World of Warcraft. Corellon is also a god of magic, and perhaps a backlash from Mystra's death could go through Him into moon and sun elves, elevating all of them to outsiders/eladrins to assist Corellon in his new position as THE deity of magic. Hmm? ;)
GothicDan 09-30-07, 09:52 PM	Pft. :)
johnkretzer 09-30-07, 10:38 PM	I actually like that image. :) Very nice, it could pass as a sun elf. But it also looks like a blood elf from World of Warcraft. Corellon is also a god of magic, and perhaps a backlash from Mystra's death could go through Him into moon and sun elves, elevating all of them to outsiders/eladrins to assist Corellon in his new position as THE deity of magic. Hmm? ;) Um...:confused: High elves weren't that heavy into the arcane for that...though I guess with the new division of high elves they just stopped existing...
Lord Karsus 09-30-07, 11:47 PM	-I'll reiterate: WTF?
Zerowolf2nd 10-01-07, 03:15 AM	And another one bits the dust! and another ones gone! and another ones gone! and another one bits the Dust! HEY! Seriously though, I feel that elves should keep their Arcane ways, making them more magical, not some foresty, anti-tree cutting, peta activists which they seem to be in the knew game. I really dont like the way 4th ed is looking, aside from certain points. If this continues i will Hazard a guess and say that 4th edition is going to become the "homebrew" addition. Maybe even worse the second edition before it. While i was anitially excited i am now more worried then ever for an RPG that i have enjoyed for well over 10 years now... it seems its losing what originally drew me to it and is going for a more, how can i put this, Magipunk feel or a more NWOD feel, neither of which i like. Im very tired of the "Its the End of the world as we know it" crowd. i dunno, i just feel people are trying to do things because they can, not because it will help.